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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, gorgeous young mom and catch

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Speaker 1: this her two year old baby murdered. Now, I've seen

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Speaker 1: a lot of murders. I've been on a lot of

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Speaker 1: homicide scenes. I've been in a lot of autopsies. But

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Speaker 1: that's a whole another thought process to kill not only

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Speaker 1: the mother, but the two year old baby. Two Why

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Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace to kill a mother and

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Speaker 1: her two year old baby. There's plenty of evidence. Why

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Speaker 1: has this case gone unsolved? Especially from what I'm learning

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Speaker 1: about Elizabeth Watkins the mom. Her whole life was worn't

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Speaker 1: baby church, weren't baby church. She wasn't out hiking, she

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Speaker 1: wasn't out at bars at night, she didn't live in

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Speaker 1: a bad area of town. To the pool of suspects

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Speaker 1: is very narrow. So why has this case gone as

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Speaker 1: they say cold? We want answers. Let's start at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Tyler Hunt a crime online.

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Speaker 1: When Elizabeth Watkins moved to rent in Washington from California,

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Speaker 1: she had no place to live and no money. She

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Speaker 1: found herself at home at Saint Matthew's Lutheran Church. Church

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Speaker 1: members helped the Watkins find a place to live, a

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Speaker 1: new job, and she soon made new friends. Watkins joined

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Speaker 1: the congregation and donated her time and energy to help

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Speaker 1: pay back the community for what they've done for her.

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Speaker 1: After daughter Nicole was born, Watkins enrolled in a nursing

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Speaker 1: program at Renton Technical College. Wow, this seems like the

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Speaker 1: perfect person. A mom, a baby girl, Nicole, and now

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Speaker 1: she's volunteering at Saint Matthew's Lutheran It sounds like a

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Speaker 1: storybook persona Take a listener. More from Tyler Hunt. Barbara

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Speaker 1: Newton and Elizabeth Watkins made Saturday lunch plans. Barbara was

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Speaker 1: tutoring the single mother with her nursing program. When Watkins

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Speaker 1: didn't show up, Newton called. When no one answered, she

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Speaker 1: decided to go over to her apartment and check in.

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Speaker 1: There was no answer at the door, but Newton could

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Speaker 1: hear the television on inside. That's when Barbara Newton noticed

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Speaker 1: the apartment's sliding glass door was opened just a bit.

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Speaker 1: Newton made her way inside through the back of the

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Speaker 1: one bedroom apartment. In the kitchen, she found the bodies

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Speaker 1: of Elizabeth and Nicole Watkins. I've got an all star

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Speaker 1: panel to break this down and put it back together again,

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Speaker 1: including Barbara, the dear friend of Liz and baby Nicole.

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Speaker 1: He made that horrible discovery Barbara. Before I got any further.

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Speaker 1: What happened. Well, we had plans for me to help

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Speaker 1: her with her math. On that particular day, I was

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Speaker 1: going to be coming to her apartment for lunch, and

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Speaker 1: I called from home because we hadn't set a specific time,

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Speaker 1: so I started calling about eleven, you know, to say, Hey,

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Speaker 1: what time do you want me to come over? And

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Speaker 1: no answer. She didn't have a car, so I knew

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Speaker 1: that maybe there was something wrong with her phone or

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Speaker 1: something like that. So I got in the car and

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Speaker 1: went over to her apartment and I parked. I could

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Speaker 1: I was facing the sliding glass door. She was on

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Speaker 1: the main She was on the main floor, so you

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Speaker 1: could literally walk from the parking lot into her into

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Speaker 1: her sliding glass door. Um I went there. I could

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Speaker 1: hear something and actually I thought it was somebody talking.

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Speaker 1: So I went around on the inside, knocked on the door.

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Speaker 1: No answer, so I thought, oh. Then then I thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: that must be the the TV. So I went back

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Speaker 1: around to the slider and went in and and and

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Speaker 1: that's when I found them. M oh I I called

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Speaker 1: the police. This was before cell phone, so I used

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Speaker 1: her her home phone to call the police. Yeah. Where

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Speaker 1: did you see their bodies on the kitchen floor? Was

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Speaker 1: Liz lying flat on the floor? Yes, so she wasn't

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Speaker 1: sitting up with Nicole? Where underneath her you mean completely

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Speaker 1: underneath her or she was shielding her or what she

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Speaker 1: little Nicole was underneath Liz on the floor? Was Liz

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Speaker 1: on her back or her tummy? She was on her

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Speaker 1: stomach sounds and says she were trying to shield her baby. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when you went in, was there any doubt in your

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Speaker 1: mind that Liz and Nicole, her two year old daughter,

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Speaker 1: were dead? No doubt, none at all? Why, Oh, this

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Speaker 1: is just I can't. I don't want to describe the

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Speaker 1: seed and please, I understand, I understand, stop right there.

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Speaker 1: But there was no doubt. Just I'll say that there

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Speaker 1: was no doubt. Take a listen to Barb and her

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Speaker 1: nine one one call on the floor that they had

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Speaker 1: been shot or stamped. Arena was on a point. I

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Speaker 1: can literally feel it in my body right now. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna have chills, um remembering, uh, the day I

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Speaker 1: got the call to take it because I want to

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Speaker 1: help you had who who his agreement? Because I was

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Speaker 1: gonna come here so much and I've been trying to

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Speaker 1: call him find it. Appearance of it's been trauma or

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Speaker 1: what you're hearing barbs, frantic and distraught nine one one

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Speaker 1: call and our friends at Fox Q thirteen there in Seattle.

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Speaker 1: Let me introduce to you our panel, another of Liz

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Speaker 1: Watkins very dear friends. Tammy Oliveri, California prosecutor, author of

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Speaker 1: Red Flags and host of Today with Doctor Wendy KCBQ

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Speaker 1: San Diego. Wendy Patrick, Doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist, joining

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Speaker 1: us out of the Atlanta jurisdictions at Angela Arnold md

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Speaker 1: dot com. Doctor Todd M. Barr, Deputy Medical Examiner pathologist

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Speaker 1: at Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner. That's Cleveland. Cheryl McCullum, Director,

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Speaker 1: founder of the Coldcase Research Institute, forensics expert and you

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Speaker 1: can find her at Coldcasecrimes dot org. But first to

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Speaker 1: Olivia La Voice, reporter for Q thirteen Fox that's in Seattle,

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Speaker 1: and you can find her on Insta at Olivia Underscore

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Speaker 1: at La Voice. Olivia, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the area where Liz and baby Nicole

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Speaker 1: were found dead. Nicole and Liz were living in Renton, Washington.

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Speaker 1: They were living in a quite large apartment complex, but

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Speaker 1: one that a lot of families live in still do

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Speaker 1: today they did back then. You know, it's not it's

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Speaker 1: certainly not a place that I don't think there's any

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Speaker 1: place where you'd ever expect anything like this to happen.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think it is a place where most

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Speaker 1: people would feel unsafe to live, and you certainly wouldn't

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Speaker 1: ever imagine that something so horrific would happen, especially during

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Speaker 1: the day, which is when investigators believe Liz was murdered.

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Speaker 1: Liz in Nicole murder. What day of the week was that? Friday?

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Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are taking a

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Speaker 1: very close look at a so called cold case, and

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Speaker 1: I'm really stunned this case has not been resolved. It's

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Speaker 1: the case of a beautiful young mom, Elizabeth Liz Watkins

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Speaker 1: and her baby, two year old Nicole. When Barbara, a

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Speaker 1: dear friend of the two, found them, Liz was trying

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Speaker 1: to shield the baby, with the baby underneath her as

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Speaker 1: if she had thrown herself on top of Nicole to

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Speaker 1: save her. Her attempts did not work. Both of them murdered.

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Speaker 1: Right now, we're talking about Renton, Washington. Where is it?

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Speaker 1: What is it? Well, there's only about ninety people there.

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Speaker 1: It's a city there in King County, Washington. It's a

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Speaker 1: sleeper suburb of Seattle. And this particular apartment was a

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Speaker 1: big complex, very family oriented. I also heard that the

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Speaker 1: sliding glass door was partially opened a sliding glass door.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, You know, we grew up with a sliding

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Speaker 1: glass door. Even I can break in a sliding glass

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Speaker 1: door at age nine. They're really not hard to break into,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of times when you shut them and

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Speaker 1: think you've locked them, you really haven't. Correct they are

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Speaker 1: extremely easy to get off the track and go right in.

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Speaker 1: You know. Again, it's an interesting motim entry and exit.

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Speaker 1: It would appear that the killer went in that way

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Speaker 1: and out that way and in somewhat of a hurry,

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Speaker 1: not even bothered to show the door. And it seems

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Speaker 1: like from what the crime team tells us, he took

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Speaker 1: the murder weapon with him. You know, I want to

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Speaker 1: go through what happened to Liz, what happened to baby Nicole,

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Speaker 1: because to you, doctor Angela Arnold. I'm not saying it's

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Speaker 1: any less important. But I see adult homicides every day.

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Speaker 1: I see separately child homicides, usually inflicted by someone in

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Speaker 1: the home. But to see a mother and a two

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Speaker 1: year old child both murdered at the same time, that's

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Speaker 1: actually very rare. And also to me, it speaks to me,

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Speaker 1: it speaks to how mean and dangerous that person is.

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Speaker 1: How I mean, you could leave a baby tossed over

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Speaker 1: to the side and not kill the baby. The baby's

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Speaker 1: never going to be able to identify you, but to

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Speaker 1: be but to be so or horribly mean, to be

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Speaker 1: able to be able to violently kill a baby. You know.

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Speaker 1: I throw around the word mean a lot, but from you,

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Speaker 1: I mean. You are the psychiatrist, and as you have

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Speaker 1: so awful pointed out to me, Doctor Angela, you are

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Speaker 1: also an MDUM note taken, but I was expecting a

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Speaker 1: little more. Let me just say psychiatric other than mean.

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Speaker 1: I know, I certainly don't want to say. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to I think that I think that this was

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Speaker 1: a not a disturbed person, not necessarily a disturbed person.

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Speaker 1: How about something like sociopath. It's my understanding of sociopath

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Speaker 1: as someone that does not abide by the rules of society.

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Speaker 1: They mean nothing, like, hey, nobody's looking, I'll run the

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Speaker 1: red light or um, yeah, I can throw this out

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Speaker 1: the window lettering. That's that rule is for other people,

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Speaker 1: not me. Sure, I'll go in through the sliding glass door.

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Speaker 1: So what are you to knock first? The rules mean nothing?

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Speaker 1: But so sociopath? What about or a psysychopath, a psychopath?

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Speaker 1: Because those those are the people that rules mean absolutely

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Speaker 1: nothing to them, absolutely nothing, and they have no remorse

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Speaker 1: for what they did. What is the individual that cannot

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Speaker 1: empathize or sympathize with the pain and suffering of another psychopath? Exactly?

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Speaker 1: That's how I would describe this person. Because you can

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Speaker 1: get angry with another adult, well I wouldn't, but suddenly

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Speaker 1: shoot them or whop them in the head. But to

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Speaker 1: then kill the child too, that's a whole another can

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Speaker 1: of worms dot dream, you know. And Nancy, I hate

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Speaker 1: to say this, but I also have to watch to

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Speaker 1: you another phrase other than psychopath and sociopath. But I

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Speaker 1: do have to wonder if this person was on some

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Speaker 1: kind of drugs. I don't know. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: there was any theft for money to buy drugs. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if there was a rape, but you know what,

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Speaker 1: we're putting the cart before the horse. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to oliviaal Voice Q thirteen. An autopsy determined Liz and

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Speaker 1: two year old Nicole had been bludgeoned to death with

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Speaker 1: an unknown weapon never found, seemingly brought to the scene

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Speaker 1: and taken with them by the killer. Investigators believe the

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Speaker 1: killings took place around five pm the evening before they

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Speaker 1: were found. It would have stealed in light outside. There

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Speaker 1: was no forced entry, no sign of sexual assault, nothing stolen.

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Speaker 1: Aside from the bodies. The apartment was essentially spotless. There

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Speaker 1: was nothing that stood out, which is just super unusual.

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Speaker 1: And I've since then obviously been to more than a handful,

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Speaker 1: and I can't say that I've ever walked in one

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Speaker 1: with that same feeling. It's very interesting to me that

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Speaker 1: the premise is the brought a weapon and took it

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Speaker 1: with him. How do I know that? How do I

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Speaker 1: know that a weapon wasn't found right there on the scene,

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Speaker 1: making this a more spontaneous killer. Guys with me right now.

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Speaker 1: In addition to Liz Watkins dear friend Barbara joining me now.

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Speaker 1: Tammy all a very another very dear friend. Tammy, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. I know that you recall

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Speaker 1: when you learned Liz and Nicole had been attacked. What happened, Well,

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Speaker 1: it was Saturday morning. I was at home. I was

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Speaker 1: currently a preschool teacher for three year olds, and I

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Speaker 1: was preparing my quess for the next week. And a

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Speaker 1: lady that lives in the same apartment complex was I

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Speaker 1: believe her name was glad I think it was Gladys,

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Speaker 1: called me and I answered the phone and said hello,

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Speaker 1: and the first words out of her mouth was I

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Speaker 1: think something. I think Liz has been killed. I was

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Speaker 1: just sorry, I mean, how do you? I was like,

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Speaker 1: what what are you talking about? She said that there

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Speaker 1: was police surrounding the apartment, and I just I just

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Speaker 1: thought I gotta go, and I hung up, and I

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Speaker 1: tried to call Liz and the phone just rang and rang.

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Speaker 1: I called my ex husband, my husband at the time,

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Speaker 1: and told him about the call, and he says, just

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Speaker 1: call Liz. You know, Gladys can get you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: it's not Liz's apartment. Whatever. I tried again, I couldn't

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Speaker 1: get an answer, so I drove to my husband's work

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Speaker 1: and I said, we need to go down to rent

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Speaker 1: And now we were living in Kirkland, Washington at the time,

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Speaker 1: about twenty minutes from Renton. We drove down there, pulled

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Speaker 1: into the parking lot and there was police tape and

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Speaker 1: police officers everywhere. I went up to the first officer

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Speaker 1: I could find and told him who I was, and

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Speaker 1: they said that they believed my friend had been a

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Speaker 1: victim of Bahamas side and when I asked about the baby,

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Speaker 1: all they would say is if there was anyone in

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Speaker 1: the apartment, they would have been removed. And it went

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Speaker 1: from there. I went through They had me go through

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Speaker 1: her address book with them with an officer a detective,

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Speaker 1: to kind of, you know, explain to them who everybody

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Speaker 1: was in the book. When the last time I saw him,

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Speaker 1: and I believe it was eight o'clock, it was dark,

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Speaker 1: I do know it was dark by the time we

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Speaker 1: finally found out about the baby. I believe they were

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Speaker 1: waiting till Pastor Kirby got there, because it was Pastor

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Speaker 1: Kirby that told me about the baby, not the police.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace, Timmy Elavery I can tell

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Speaker 1: you and Barbara still deeply distraught as you describe the

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Speaker 1: death of Liz Watkins and her baby Nicole. Find it

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Speaker 1: very difficult to believe this case remains unsolved. Using a

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Speaker 1: sliding glass door, I think of all the prints a bludgeoning,

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Speaker 1: that's not easy. Did the touch something? Were there any

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Speaker 1: security cameras in the area? Tammy All a very one

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Speaker 1: of Liz's very best friends. Could you describe that apartment

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Speaker 1: complex to me? Was it family oriented or were there

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Speaker 1: people out dealing dope on the playground? No, I mean

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Speaker 1: it was family oriented. There were I believe some single

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Speaker 1: people there. I mean it was a lower priced complex,

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Speaker 1: so you know, I wasn't a real expensive unit. I

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Speaker 1: have to honestly say that there were some people that

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Speaker 1: lived in the area that in that building that I

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Speaker 1: wasn't comfortable with, and I will to this day, and

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Speaker 1: I always have said that the family that called me

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Speaker 1: about it, I wasn't comfortable with them. Neither were my children.

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Speaker 1: It's funny today, my oldest son, who at the time

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Speaker 1: was fifteen and isn't forty now, he did not care

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Speaker 1: for that family. He said that their son made him

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Speaker 1: very uncomfortable. What do you mean by that? Uncomfortable in

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Speaker 1: what way that he was strange just I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I tried to get Alan to elaborate, but they want

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Speaker 1: to talk about what you're saying, because you know, serone

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Speaker 1: McCall him, You've raised two children and I'm doing it

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Speaker 1: right now. They have certain friends that I feel. There's

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Speaker 1: nothing wrong with them, They're perfectly fine. There's just something

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Speaker 1: about them. I'm afraid for the twins to hang around

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Speaker 1: with them because I feel that they'll get the twins

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Speaker 1: to do something crazy like run down the middle of

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Speaker 1: the road or jumping off of a roof into somebody

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Speaker 1: else's pool, or some crazy something. I don't I can't

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Speaker 1: put my finger on it. But you know that gut

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Speaker 1: feeling that you have. Do you hear what Tammy's saying.

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Speaker 1: I tell people time listen to it. Listen to that

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Speaker 1: gut feeling. Because here's the thing that we know about

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Speaker 1: this scene, Nancy. We know that you and I the

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Speaker 1: murder of a two year old is extremely rare, and

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Speaker 1: it is off the charts rare when it's not domestic.

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Speaker 1: So we have a situation where the mother is murdered,

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Speaker 1: is the child in a place in broad daylight where

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Speaker 1: anybody associated with those same apartments would know how to

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Speaker 1: enter in that side glass store. So to me, you've

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Speaker 1: got to look at people associated with that complex more

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Speaker 1: than her church or her work or where she was

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Speaker 1: studying to become a nurse. You've got to start there

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Speaker 1: where it happened. That's what I've always thought, is that

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Speaker 1: Barbara or Tammy, Dammy Willy and Tammy. I just I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't honestly know how Liz met that family unless

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Speaker 1: she met them there in the apartment. I mean she

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Speaker 1: hadn't lived there about a year. It is possible. I

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Speaker 1: mean I met her through met them through Liz. Is

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Speaker 1: there a man in this scenario? Was there a father

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Speaker 1: or an adult brother? A father and a son? Because

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you, let me go to doctor Todd Barr

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Speaker 1: joining us, doctor Todd and bar Jeffe Medical Examiner, Cuyahoga County.

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Speaker 1: That's Cleveland. Never a lack of business there in Cleveland

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Speaker 1: in the morgue, doctor Barr, and I say that in

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Speaker 1: a loving and kering way. Having worked inner city Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: doctor Barr, the bludgeoning death of a grown woman and

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Speaker 1: a child. I'm just telling you this is a male

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Speaker 1: per I don't need to see his DNA or a

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Speaker 1: seaman to know this as a man. And I base

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Speaker 1: that on thousands and thousands of cases compiled in a

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Speaker 1: book Method and Assessment of Homicide and Suicide, plus anecdotally,

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Speaker 1: I've never once had, in all the murder cases I prosecuted, investigated,

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Speaker 1: or covered, I'm thinking back now, had a female kill

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Speaker 1: another female via bludgeoning. Absolutely. I just recently had a

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Speaker 1: case here in Cleveland of a five year old boy

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Speaker 1: that was bludgeoned to death by a baseball bat by

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Speaker 1: his father. And it's just harm. May he rot in hell?

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Speaker 1: By the way. Amen? Amen? You know any anybody that

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Speaker 1: could take an object to a child, an innocent child.

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Speaker 1: And I say the same thing about pet because I'm

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Speaker 1: a pet lover as well, but anyone that would torture

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Speaker 1: or harm an innocent child is just I just my

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Speaker 1: head just explodes thinking about it, you know. Wendy Passion,

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Speaker 1: California prosecutor author read Flags today with doctor Wendy every

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Speaker 1: Day Caseybeke San Diego. Wendy, you know it's a man, right.

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Speaker 1: Do we even need to discuss that any further? You

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Speaker 1: got a mail purp, Yeah, No, I agree, and you know,

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Speaker 1: to narrow it down even further. When you hear that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't a crime of opportunity, no sexual assault, nothing stolen,

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Speaker 1: you would probably look at the men that lived in

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Speaker 1: that complex before anything else, most of whom I would

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Speaker 1: imagine were questioned right afterwards about their whereabout whether somebody

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Speaker 1: had an alibi. So you would think that we could

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Speaker 1: really have narrowed this down a lot further than we

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Speaker 1: have in the year since this occurred. I know, I

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Speaker 1: hate that this case has gone called back to Barbara,

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Speaker 1: a very dear friend who attended Saint Matthew's Lutheran Church

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Speaker 1: along with Liz Watkins and her little baby girl, Nicole.

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Speaker 1: Do you recall we're there cameras, security cameras in the apartment.

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Speaker 1: I do not recall that at all. The apartment itself,

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Speaker 1: that complex is huge. There's hundreds of apartments there, and

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Speaker 1: her apartment was right on the ground floor, right off

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Speaker 1: to the parking lot, very accessible when you come in

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Speaker 1: the driveway. Hate that. I hate it, Barbara, and I

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Speaker 1: write in my book, don't be a victim. It's the

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Speaker 1: name of the book. Whether you're at a hotel, A

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Speaker 1: B and B, or finding an apartment, trying not to

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Speaker 1: be on the ground floor. It's like I just walks in,

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Speaker 1: like he's walking right into his own kitchen. And right

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Speaker 1: after this happened, they took out that sliding glass store

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Speaker 1: and made it just a solid wall to that particular apartment.

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Speaker 1: You know, I also know that the walls in that apartment.

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Speaker 1: I learned this through some supplemental police reports that I read.

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Speaker 1: The walls in that apartment to this very day are

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Speaker 1: not thick. You can stand out in the hallway and

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Speaker 1: you can hear conversations in two or three different apartments,

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Speaker 1: according to the detectives, But nobody heard any screaming or

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Speaker 1: any raised voices. Is that right, olivial voice, Yes, that's correct.

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Speaker 1: No one, No one heard anything, which of course seems

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Speaker 1: extremely unusual. And one investigator on the case has voiced

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Speaker 1: to me that he does not believe that that that

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Speaker 1: just does not seem possible. So to think that you

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Speaker 1: have not just one, but it would appear several several

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Speaker 1: different residents of that apartment for whatever reason not coming

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Speaker 1: forward with information is you know, just incredibly unsettling. And Tommy,

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Speaker 1: are you saying that people within the apartment complex were

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Speaker 1: not helpful to police. They were not. They were not.

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Speaker 1: There's no substantial leads to this day really have ever

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Speaker 1: been developed, and that is largely because of that Tammy Olivary.

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Speaker 1: She was a school correct nursing school. And had she

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Speaker 1: made friends or was she concerned about anyone at school

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Speaker 1: possibly stalking her or trying to go out with or

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Speaker 1: anything like that. Not at all. And the reason I

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Speaker 1: asked Tammy Olivery is because there's no rape, there's nothing stolen.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if someone had been rejected or thought they

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Speaker 1: had been rejected. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Guys, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the brutal murders of a young mom, Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: Liz Watkins and her little precious girl who I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at right now and what I believe to be an

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Speaker 1: Easter photo because she's got on this beautiful dress and

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Speaker 1: she's holding up a pink Easter egg that matches her

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Speaker 1: pink floral outfit, just dripping with lace and wuffles and

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Speaker 1: very well taking care of. Her hair is shiny and clean,

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Speaker 1: she's smiling, her eyes are bright and shiny. She her

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Speaker 1: little fingernails are done perfectly. Why am I saying that?

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Speaker 1: Because I see here that the baby is well taken

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Speaker 1: care of. I mean, I know it's hard to believe,

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Speaker 1: but Cheryl, isn't this true? You know, I have covered

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Speaker 1: cases where and the photos that children have bruises on

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Speaker 1: their face, they look be draggle, their hair is unkempt,

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Speaker 1: their clothes like raggedy and even dirty. I mean, at

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Speaker 1: least I see here this child is being taken care of.

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Speaker 1: The mother loved the child, loved so much she probably

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Speaker 1: gave her life trying to save the child. That's what

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Speaker 1: it would appear to me, Nancy. I think it's really

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Speaker 1: important that we point out the position the victims were in.

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Speaker 1: If her mama was shielding her and the baby was

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Speaker 1: still bludging to death, that means they were both hit

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Speaker 1: very quickly, almost simultaneously. So that's something to consider. The

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Speaker 1: other thing to consider is this victim. The mamma was

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Speaker 1: thirty six. It's not like she was a twenty one

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Speaker 1: year old college student. I mean, this was not somebody

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Speaker 1: that was going out to nightclubs and you know, go

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Speaker 1: to different places. She was at the Lutheran church the

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Speaker 1: majority of her free time. That's where she was at,

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00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: and the baby was with her all the time. And

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Speaker 1: I think again, the suspect pool is very small. And

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Speaker 1: let me just say, we don't know for sure that

404
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Speaker 1: it was a grown man. I didn't say Grahame. Could

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Speaker 1: have been a team No, no, I'm saying this in general.

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Speaker 1: We don't know it was a man. It could have

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Speaker 1: been a evenil. Okay, there are male juveniles. Oh of

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Speaker 1: course you said, I don't know. I want some me in.

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Speaker 1: It could have been a juvenile. Yes, Can we just

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Speaker 1: at least agree it's a male m a L. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I agree it's a male. Guys, take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our cut ten Q thirteen Fox then and now there

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Speaker 1: was a disturbing lack of evidence. If it's a crime

414
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Speaker 1: of passion, they they the suspect traditionally makes a whole

415
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: bunch of mistakes, right, because they're in the throes of

416
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Speaker 1: this anger or whatever it is that's driving them, and

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Speaker 1: so there's there's pieces of themselves. If there was a fight,

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Speaker 1: there's there's blood splatter, and there's hair, and there's weapons,

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Speaker 1: and there's things turned over and right, there's just a

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Speaker 1: bunch of other things that weren't in this crime scene.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about that crime of passion. Barbara Long time

422
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: friend of Les's attend Saint Matthew's Lutheran Church with her

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00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: crime of passion. Somebody was so angry or rejected for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason. Why would a male perp and there's no boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: there's no ex husband in the scenario, we know the

426
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: ex has a rock solid alibi. Who would have been

427
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: so angry they would have killed them both by killing

428
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: the child. That suggests to me, Barbara, the child knew

429
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: the killer, and the killer did not want to be identified.

430
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: You know that that's part of this hole. The horribleness

431
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: of this is she was the most wonderful person in

432
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: the world. There is nobody that you can possibly think of.

433
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: She didn't have any fears of any specific people. There

434
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: was nobody stalking her. There was nobody that she voiced

435
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: that she was afraid of. Let me ask you a question, Barbara.

436
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: She started to say religiously, but that would sound almost

437
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: like a pun. She was extremely devoted to volunteering and

438
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: her work there at Saint Matthew's Lutheran She was also

439
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: was she not in school? Yes, she was going to

440
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: school to be a LPN And did she also have

441
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: a job. No, So who kept the baby when she

442
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: was in school. The school itself had a daycare. So

443
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: between that, it's clear to me you've got two pools

444
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: of suspects, Wendy Patrick, church and school. Well, you would

445
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: have church were to That's right, That's where I was

446
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 1: going with this, because between church and school, it sounds

447
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: like there would have been somebody that would have known

448
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: something about a stalker, about somebody that had been threatening her.

449
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: And in terms of the personnelity that some of your

450
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: other guests have been talking about, to kill a two

451
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: year old child, a two year old's not going to

452
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: recognize an adult or be able to articulate who it was.

453
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: That just demonstrates that degree of evil, Nancy, that you

454
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: and I sometimes told juries. When we can't explain what

455
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: the motive could have been, if we can't narrow it

456
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: down to anybody with the grudge, a crime of passion,

457
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: a crime of opportunity, sometimes we're just left with that, sadly,

458
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: And when you think about it, to doctor Todd Barr

459
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: joining US Deputy Medical Examiner Cleveland, Todd d Bar, you

460
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: can't just like hit somebody, even with a bat, and

461
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: it killed them. To murder someone by bludgeoning, you've got

462
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: to be trying to hit a home run. I mean

463
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: it takes considerable force. Well, And what strikes me about

464
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: this particular case, Nancy, is that it sounds like the

465
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: apartment was relatively spotless, and this was focused mainly just

466
00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: in the kitchen and nothing was overturned, there were nothing

467
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: was missing. So this was a person that was laser

468
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: focused on what they were doing. And that gives me

469
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: another question regarding what you just said, thank you, doctor

470
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: Barr Tammy. When you come through, when you would come

471
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: through the sliding glass door, which I believe the point

472
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: of it. You can't believe that he get Prince off

473
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: the door, but this is such a great surface for Prince.

474
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: Do you go straight into the kitchen from there? No? No,

475
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: you go you went into the living room, and then

476
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: what the kitchen was by the front door. It was

477
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: a small like galley style kitchen where if you walked

478
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: into the front door, as soon as you went to

479
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: the left was the entry into the little kitchen. To

480
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: the right would have went to the hallway to the

481
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: bathroom and there one bedroom was Liz closed. Yes, so

482
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: there was no sex as set. But I was wondering

483
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: if she's just gotten on the shower. Had somebody been

484
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: watching her? So ground level floor, So her bathroom I

485
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: believe had a window in it. Correct. No, No, the

486
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: bathroom did not have to have one of those tiny

487
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: windows in it. No, the bathroom was an interior bathroom.

488
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: It had no windows. Good to know this sounds like

489
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: an angry person that lived in the area. They had

490
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: to know or from either the apartment, the church, or

491
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: the school. This case has left a lasting impact on

492
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: everyone connected. Take a listen to our cut eight, our

493
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,399
Speaker 1: Forensic Q thirteen. Going to those scenes changes you back then,

494
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: Sergeant Russell Radkey was a new detective task with helping

495
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: process crime scenes. It was horrific. I mean, there's no

496
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: other way to describe it. And I was a single,

497
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,919
Speaker 1: widowed father with a child at the same age. So

498
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: when you talk about walking into a crime scene and

499
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: it's not like a standard crime scene, right, there's a

500
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,439
Speaker 1: component of how do I even separate out my own

501
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: stuff from what I'm seeing in front of me at

502
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: this point? See it? It was awful. These kids really

503
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: loved to marvari. Yeah, did and also take a listen

504
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: to more Cut eleven. To complicate things even further, detectives

505
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: couldn't find anything in Lizza's life, past or present that

506
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 1: would have put her in the crosshairs with any dangerous people.

507
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 1: That doesn't make sense. There's nothing you can no roads

508
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: you can follow. They could give you an answer. No debts, drugs,

509
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: or love affairs. Lizza's life seemed to revolve around Nicole,

510
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: church and school. The few people who could classify as

511
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: an obvious suspect, like an ex Nicole's father or family

512
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 1: were ruled out through solid alibis. Who would do this through?

513
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 1: There was no reason she was She was just a kind,

514
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: wonderful person who didn't make any trouble. I mean, she

515
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: was just a baby. Who would kill a baby? Two

516
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 1: year old that couldn't have possibly harmed anyone? I mean

517
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 1: she was too young to be able to to describe

518
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,919
Speaker 1: the person. I mean, but who would who would kill

519
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: a baby? Who would kill a baby? There is a

520
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: ten thousand dollar reward to help solve the mystery surrounding

521
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: the death of Elizabeth Liz Watkins and her little baby

522
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 1: Nicole just two years old one eight hundred two to

523
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: two tips one eight hundred two two to eight four

524
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: seven seven ten thousand dollar reward. Olivia where does the

525
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: case stand now? Well, Nancy, we're really hoping that that

526
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: increased reward has helped get new tips. It's the reward

527
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: is new. We're not positive exactly what all new information

528
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: has developed, but we're hopeful that that the new attention

529
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: on the cases really made some people think twice about

530
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: continuing to remain quiet all this time later. Cheryl McCollum,

531
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: what can be done now you're at the director at

532
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: the Cold Case Research Institute, Nancy, I believe the connection

533
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: with the killer is zero except for geography. I think

534
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: there's a real chance that this person, when they committed

535
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: this crime, was a juvenile. So what law enforce it

536
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: needs to do in this type of attack. He probably

537
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: grabbed the victim in some way, struggled with her a bit.

538
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: His touch. DNA could still be on her clothing. That

539
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: has got to be tested. The other thing they need

540
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: to do is they need to look at rapes even

541
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: ten years later and go back to see who had

542
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: a connection with that apartment complex. We wait as justice

543
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: unfolds again. A ten thousand dollar were now in place

544
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: Tipline one eight one hundred and two two two eight

545
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: four seven seven Nancy Grace Crime story signing off good

546
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 1: bye friend,