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Speaker 1: Warning. This podcast contains spoilers for the limited series Moon

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Speaker 1: Night on Disney Plus, also the novel Hills, some light

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Speaker 1: spoilers by Nicola Griffith, and a number of other fantasy novels,

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Speaker 1: so beware. Hello, my name is Jason Stepsion. Welcome next

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Speaker 1: Our Vision the Crooked Podcast, where we dive deep into

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows, movies, comics and pop culture. In today's episode,

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Speaker 1: and previously on lots of comic book news, lead casting

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Speaker 1: announcement in the upcoming Percy Jackson series on Disney Plus Plus.

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Speaker 1: The MCU's Ironheart series has named its directors, and we

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Speaker 1: will do our recap of episode three of Moonnight. In

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Speaker 1: the airlock. We're gonna be talking about out fantasy and

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Speaker 1: sci fi authors, especially by queer and marginalized authors. And

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Speaker 1: then for the Hive Mind, we'd be talking to award

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Speaker 1: winning author of many stories including Ammonite, including So Lucky

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Speaker 1: and one of Rosie and My favorites Hilled Nicola Griffith,

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Speaker 1: and in our nerd out, a listener will pitch us

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Speaker 1: on the Illuminatus trilogy. Joining me today to talk about

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Speaker 1: all of that and more is The Great, the Powerful

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Speaker 1: The Godzilla comic book creating various theory pieces, writing the

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Speaker 1: great content creating. Rosie Knight, Rosie, how are you?

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Speaker 2: It's me. I'm okay, I have it's content mind. I'm

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Speaker 2: scared of the content creating minds. One day to be here.

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Speaker 1: The minds are endless and they never stop, and you

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Speaker 1: have to just keep mining the same stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's like being Instadgy's just there's too many levels. Just

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Speaker 2: you's going down, always something else to mine.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's get into the news. Marvel Comics announced recently

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Speaker 1: at the Fan Expo in Philadelphia a new title, All

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Speaker 1: Out Avengers. This seems like it's going to be kind

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Speaker 1: of in the vein of non stop Spider Man created

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Speaker 1: by the creative team. All Out of Avengers is of Greg

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Speaker 1: land Who, the artist Greg land Who if you've listened

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Speaker 1: to us and you know Greg land can be divisive,

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Speaker 1: and the novelist Derek Landy. This apparently is going to

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Speaker 1: be a kind of like it seems just reading parsing

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Speaker 1: the press release tea leaves gonna be something of a

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Speaker 1: Ultimates kind of take on the Avengers, more action packed. Certainly,

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Speaker 1: you know, the press release basically says they're going to

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Speaker 1: just drop you media res into the middle of some

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Speaker 1: pitch battle and it's going to be like that, just fight, fight, fight,

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Speaker 1: fight fight, action action action action. Your thoughts, Yeah, thoughts

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Speaker 1: on Greg Land?

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Speaker 2: Well, I've had a lot of Greg Land photo tracing. No,

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Speaker 2: but here's one of those artists where every soften I'll

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Speaker 2: see a piece of art and I'm like, Oh, my

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Speaker 2: fucking god, that's Greg Land. That is so fucking good.

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Speaker 2: And I really hope he's bringing that angle to this.

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Speaker 2: He can be good, he can be good like and

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Speaker 2: you know what, the thing that I really like about

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Speaker 2: this is it's doing the thing that Marvel does best,

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Speaker 2: which is where Marvel looks to what indie comics are doing,

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Speaker 2: looks to what weird other licenses are doing, and it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: we should be doing that. And there's been this incredible space.

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Speaker 2: You know, We've talked about that, James Stoko, Godzilla stuff

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Speaker 2: like there is you know, these unbelievable artists, Michael Fife, like,

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Speaker 2: there's all these different people who are making these comics. Well,

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Speaker 2: when you pick them up, you feel like you're just

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Speaker 2: in an action movie. You feel even that, you know,

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Speaker 2: I have a lot of moral quandaries with it, but

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Speaker 2: the Keanu Reeves comic that he that he wrote with

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Speaker 2: Matt Kintzak. You know that those comics, there's just this

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Speaker 2: unbelievable tone, just boom boom boom boom, action explosions. It's

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Speaker 2: not necessarily about like a deeper narrative or selling an

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Speaker 2: ip for a movie. It's about the kinetic force of

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Speaker 2: what comic book art can do. Like Young Avengers, you know,

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Speaker 2: we talk about that a lot, that era of Marvel.

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Speaker 2: They were doing stuff where you just go, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: how how did this happen? How did you put this

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Speaker 2: on the page? And I love that the description is

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Speaker 2: they're just like action explosions, no questions. So I want

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Speaker 2: to see what that looks like. And I'm hoping it's

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Speaker 2: going to be weird and explosive and kind of really exciting,

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Speaker 2: because that's not something I feel like we're getting as

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Speaker 2: much in Big two comics. So I will be open

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Speaker 2: minded to it, and I will definitely put the first

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Speaker 2: issue on my pull list.

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Speaker 1: Next we get a new big news. This is kind

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Speaker 1: of big news, secretly big news, really huge read.

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Speaker 2: This is definitely big news.

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Speaker 1: Yes, a new origin for Thor. Marvel has announced that

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Speaker 1: a new event one million BC, we'll release this ter

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Speaker 1: line will delve into the newly revealed origin of Thor,

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Speaker 1: our favorite god of Thunder. The image that this announcement

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Speaker 1: was teased with showed the phoenix for symbol. No further

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Speaker 1: details were available, but of course we learned back in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one that Lady Phoenix, who is the original

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Speaker 1: host of the Phoenix well original the host of it

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Speaker 1: that we know right right, the host of the Phoenix

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Speaker 1: Force in a million BC, is actually Thor's real mom.

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Speaker 1: So there is da There was that reveal, So this

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Speaker 1: is going to be very interesting. Your thoughts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, mix up this weird stuff. I the

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Speaker 2: Phoenix Force. It's truly immortal in the world of Marvel Comics,

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Speaker 2: like it will always be there. It's echo Hou holds

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Speaker 2: the Phoenix Force every different character, you know. I love

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Speaker 2: the Phoenix Force. I'm my eighties X men baby, so

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Speaker 2: I'm here to see it. I love Thor, I love

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Speaker 2: word cosmic stuff, so I'm open to it. As always,

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Speaker 2: as we always say on the shows to the people

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Speaker 2: who listen, anything like this is always interesting to keep

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Speaker 2: an eye on if you love the MCU, because when

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Speaker 2: they set up something like this, it could end up

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Speaker 2: in a different way. I'm not saying that in Thor,

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Speaker 2: Love and Thunder Thor is gonna suddenly hold the Phoenix

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Speaker 2: Force or connect with it, but the idea of changing

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Speaker 2: Thor's origin, of introducing something that's not fully as Guardian,

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Speaker 2: that seems like they could be seeding something. Also, that

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Speaker 2: issue Avenges forty three, that's got letters by like one

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Speaker 2: of my favorite letters, Corey Pettit, so shout out to

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Speaker 2: Corey anytime I see his name. I'm like, yeah, those's good.

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Speaker 1: And to your point, we are entering a period of

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Speaker 1: the MCU where we can reasonably expect to see the

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Speaker 1: X Men, Jean Gray, potentially the Phoenix Force arrive on screens,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the in the near term, so you

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Speaker 1: never know. Exciting next up, AX, how would we pronounce

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Speaker 1: his AX Judgment day? AXE Judgment Day? What do you think?

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Speaker 1: Do you think this is.

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Speaker 2: Pree for all? I think it's because it's called the periods.

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Speaker 2: I think it's AX, but obviously the acronym is AX,

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Speaker 2: so that sounds cool as hell. And they probably also

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Speaker 2: want you to.

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Speaker 1: Say acts from a really a wow blockbuster creative team

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Speaker 1: of Kieran Gillen one of our favorites period and Valario

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Speaker 1: Shitty the Wonderful Artist comes Ax Judgment Day and this

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Speaker 1: so the press, Rea says, quote kicking off after the

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Speaker 1: Eternals boldly attack Mutant Kind's new home in Kracoa. Why

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Speaker 1: would you do that? Internal spoiler alert, don't do that.

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Speaker 1: This complex saga will pay off various plants thirds that

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Speaker 1: have defined these franchise in recent years, including muton Kinds

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Speaker 1: new found immortality, the Eternals discovery of long hidden truth

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Speaker 1: about their species, and the Avengers intense dealings with the Celestials.

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Speaker 1: So a pretty big crossover event with and this one,

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Speaker 1: I think for sure will have some revealed absolutions in

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Speaker 1: the MCU going forward.

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Speaker 2: We we've long said and this is not just us too,

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Speaker 2: This is we as the general fan. This is you

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Speaker 2: who's listening. This is people at home, This is people

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Speaker 2: who have only really read a couple of trades. It

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Speaker 2: has seemed like for a long time a really smart

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Speaker 2: way for them to bring the X Men into the

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Speaker 2: MCU would be some kind of Avengers versus x Men.

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Speaker 2: That's a badass team up explosion. It's the kind of

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Speaker 2: thing everyone wants to see and now that the Eternals

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Speaker 2: exist in the MCU, it seems like it's probably not

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Speaker 2: a coincidence to reimagine that battle including the Eternals, who

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Speaker 2: have often been on the outside of things. I'm sure

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Speaker 2: there's a different universe, a different timeline that we would

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Speaker 2: be living in where this would be Avengers, X Men

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Speaker 2: and the Inhumans, but that's not the world we're living in.

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Speaker 2: We're living in the world of the Eternals, you know,

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Speaker 2: And so I think it's very telling. I think this

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Speaker 2: is really exciting because I read amore X Men number one,

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Speaker 2: which was Kieran Gillan jumping back on the X Men

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Speaker 2: after a while, and it was so good and so

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Speaker 2: funny and so exciting. It launches the new age of

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Speaker 2: the Second Age of Krokoha, which they're calling the Age

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Speaker 2: of Destiny, because the lady and icon Destiny is back.

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Speaker 2: I love her, and she's.

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Speaker 1: Back saying she's crazy.

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Speaker 2: It's some crazy Sun's so crazy. Will never win. Everyone

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Speaker 2: knows that's the rule. Like, you can't do anything about it.

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Speaker 1: So every time she's got something to say, I'm like that, Oh,

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Speaker 1: there we go.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's why Moira tagget, you know, she didn't want

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Speaker 2: her back. She said, no, pre cogs, it's a bad idea.

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Speaker 2: And so I think this is going to be a

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Speaker 2: massive event. I think the creative team is badass.

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 2: If you have recently set up a Paul List and

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Speaker 2: have X Men books on it, you may experience for

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Speaker 2: the first time the epic highs and devastating lows of

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Speaker 2: an event where suddenly there's twenty five books in your thing.

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Speaker 2: But it seems like this will be relatively small. I

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Speaker 2: think it's going to be like Immortal X Men X

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Speaker 2: Men Red, so it's going to be X tight or heavy.

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Speaker 2: But this is one I think to keep an eye

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Speaker 2: on because, like we said, blockbuster Creative Team unreal art,

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Speaker 2: but also could potentially seed some things that we may

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Speaker 2: be seeing in the future of them.

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Speaker 1: I agree. So it's interesting to think about, like, really,

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Speaker 1: how close I mean, two of the three teams already exist, right,

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Speaker 1: We've got the Avengers here, Eternals are here, X Men

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Speaker 1: to come. But I keep thinking, so, you know, in

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Speaker 1: the comics, the Avengers eventually move into the like the

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Speaker 1: body of a celestial to use as their new Age

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Speaker 1: Q And of course at the end of Eternals, right,

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Speaker 1: we've got this celestial that is sticking out of the

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Speaker 1: ocean and very cool looking, very very cool, and I

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Speaker 1: have to assume that at some point an Avengers team

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Speaker 1: is going to move in there. Do you have any

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Speaker 1: thoughts about who would be a member of that team?

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Speaker 2: Surprisingly, I do so. I think that we're about to

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Speaker 2: enter the era that we have so smartly how the

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Speaker 2: Jacket Avengers they wore bomber jackets. They included you know,

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Speaker 2: Circe who he saw. They included Dane Whitman as Black Knight.

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Speaker 2: They included uh, you know, wonder Man, somebody who we

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Speaker 2: know is deeply connected to wander and Vision. You know.

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Speaker 2: I think that there's a lot of potential hercules someone

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Speaker 2: that we've been expecting to see in this Avengers for

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Speaker 2: a long time. I think that we could see I

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Speaker 2: think that we're on the right track imagining that we're

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Speaker 2: going to see multiple different versions of the Avengers. But

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Speaker 2: I think that if we're going to get like a

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Speaker 2: primary just Avengers team, I think we're looking more at

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Speaker 2: that kind of like Jacket Avengers kind of wild era

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Speaker 2: that also is an era that could cross over with

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Speaker 2: like a Monica Rambo. Yeah, Avengers, you know which I

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Speaker 2: think is very likely. So could we see a sword

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Speaker 2: kind of created Avengers. I want to see them living

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Speaker 2: in that celestial That was like so cool.

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Speaker 1: I think it's going to be Monica Rambo, Jane Foster

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Speaker 1: thor doctor Strange.

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Speaker 2: Oh you know what Falcon Captain America.

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Speaker 1: That with Falcon Cats in America ye blade Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then whatever they're going to like, uh whoever the

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Speaker 1: new Black Panther.

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Speaker 2: Is yes, which we will see when Wakanda Forever comes out.

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Speaker 1: So very exciting. Yeah, I can't wait to pick this

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Speaker 1: one up. Next up, we go to d C DC's

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Speaker 1: Death of Justice League and Dark Crisis. DC is promoting

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Speaker 1: the Justice League's demise in the Death of Justice League

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Speaker 1: the final issue of the series, and that's it. They're

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Speaker 1: not going to do Justice League anymore again. Ever again,

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Speaker 1: it happened over, It's done, that's it. Fans were told

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Speaker 1: Justice League. Justice League would face a dark army of villains,

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Speaker 1: but now we get our first look at who makes

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Speaker 1: up this villainous group. In preview RT for Justice League

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Speaker 1: number seventy five, which is out will be out next week.

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Speaker 1: It has come from the creative team Josh Williamson and

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Speaker 1: artist Ralfisnoval your thoughts on the death of Justice League

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Speaker 1: in Dark Crisis.

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Speaker 2: I'm such a fan of Joshua Williamson and everything that

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Speaker 2: he's done on this. I really discovered him during his

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Speaker 2: time on Flash, and I just think he's doing a

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Speaker 2: lot of really exciting stuff. I deeply respect and appreciate

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Speaker 2: the editorial idea of basically eliminating the Justice League just

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Speaker 2: before this kind of huge trial of the Amazons and

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Speaker 2: introducing this new age of themis gerra I think it's

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Speaker 2: really smart. I love creepy dark Dark Crisis. I like

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Speaker 2: the you know, I like the metal stuff that they

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Speaker 2: were doing with DC. It was really over the top

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Speaker 2: and kind of ninety six. Dream Raffer is a great artist,

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Speaker 2: so I think this is really interesting. It it feels

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Speaker 2: almost a bit like to me, like people aren't talking

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Speaker 2: about it, and I feel like when it happens, people

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Speaker 2: are going to start talking about it, you know, Like

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Speaker 2: this is even though we know as comic book fans,

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Speaker 2: the Justice League is not gonna go away forever spoiler right, spoiler,

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Speaker 2: it's still a big deal. Like remember when they killed

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Speaker 2: Superman Superman, that's we still talk about that event, Like

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Speaker 2: this is a thing that is occurring. I mean it's.

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Speaker 1: As I cried, an Adventures dissemble and this was like

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Speaker 1: the second time in five years that didn't even think.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, there's like really cool artists, Like I really

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Speaker 2: like Stephanie Phillips, She's done a brilliant job writing like Harlequin,

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Speaker 2: a bunch of cool stuff. Leila del Luca is an

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Speaker 2: amazing artist. Emmanuela Lupaccino, like they're gonna have They're gonna

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Speaker 2: they're bringing in like an a team, And I want

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Speaker 2: to see what the ramifications are because there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of books people really love at the moment, you know,

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Speaker 2: the night Wing stuff is like so spectacular. Like, I

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Speaker 2: want to know how this affects it. What does it

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Speaker 2: mean for Trial of the Amazons? You know, is it

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Speaker 2: gonna be is that gonna leave a power vacuum that's

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Speaker 2: gonna impact that? Or is this more of a kind

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Speaker 2: of will there be a twist that means this doesn't

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Speaker 2: really affect it. I like to see how these things

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Speaker 2: tie in, so I think it's really cool.

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Speaker 1: Next up, Percy Jackson on Disney Plus Casts its title

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Speaker 1: role cast. It's Percy, the Percy Jackson and the Olympian

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Speaker 1: series at Disney Plus has cast Walker Scobell from you

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Speaker 1: might know him from the Netflix film The Adam Project

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Speaker 1: and title role. The series, of course, is an adaptation

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Speaker 1: of the Rick reard In book series and was ordered

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Speaker 1: by the streamer back in back in January. This is

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Speaker 1: relevant because, and particularly for today's episode, where we're trying

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Speaker 1: to focus on creators who are elevating voices and working

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Speaker 1: from a personal experience that is out of perhaps what

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Speaker 1: people are considered the mainstream. We're talking about disability, literature,

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Speaker 1: queer creators, queer characters, etc. And Percy Jackson has both

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Speaker 1: ADHD and dyslexia and triumphs and takes part in a

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Speaker 1: bunch of rip roaring adventures despite these his disabilities NERD

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Speaker 1: and has long been an advocate for marginalized and underrepresentative

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Speaker 1: of voices in why fiction. And I know that this

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Speaker 1: is something as our producer Saul was telling us in

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Speaker 1: the pre pro meeting, this is something that a lot

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Speaker 1: of fans of the series have really been waiting for.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like the movies didn't necessarily deliver for everyone on

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Speaker 2: kind of the scope of what these can be, So

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Speaker 2: I think a series gives a long kind of format

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Speaker 2: storytelling is like a better space for telling these kind

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Speaker 2: of epic stories of a kid who's like half god,

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Speaker 2: half human, you know. And yeah, and he definitely the

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Speaker 2: ADHD and dyslexia thing is way ahead of its time,

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Speaker 2: and the way that Rick writes it is it is,

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Speaker 2: it's helpful, it's what makes him him, you know. It's

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Speaker 2: very much in the mindset of how people think about

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Speaker 2: disability now, which is it's a part of you, and

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Speaker 2: it's a good part of you. It's just society that

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Speaker 2: doesn't see it. And I'm a big fan of Rick,

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Speaker 2: not just because of these books, which obviously, like we read,

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Speaker 2: they were one of those primary sci fi fantasy kind

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Speaker 2: of books when you're a kid, but he has a

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Speaker 2: he actually has an imprint called Rick Rawdan Presents, which

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Speaker 2: is like specifically focused on publishing brilliant middle grade and

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Speaker 2: kind of sci fi fantasy, magical books but like from

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Speaker 2: underrepresented authors. And I've seen so many incredible books come

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Speaker 2: out of that imprint, and I just think he's kind

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Speaker 2: of doing that thing that you always hope when somebody

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Speaker 2: writes something that's really special to you, which is the

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Speaker 2: bigger his platform grows, the more good he does with it.

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Speaker 2: And I think something that's really exciting about a Percy

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Speaker 2: Jackson show on Disney plass is I think that that

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Speaker 2: mentality is going to come through into the show and

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Speaker 2: I'm really excited to see how it translates to the

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Speaker 2: on screen representation as well. And I like that they

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Speaker 2: cast the actual kid this kid as well, he's a baby,

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Speaker 2: Like that's what I want to see.

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Speaker 1: Up next, Ironheart gets its directors. Ryan Coogler is joining

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Speaker 1: as a producer. This per Deadline, Marvel's Ironheart series on

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Speaker 1: Disney Plus is moving into the different stages of production now.

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Speaker 1: Of course, Ironheart is the story of Reary Williams, who

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Speaker 1: is as of now canonically the smartest character in the

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Speaker 1: Marvel universe, a genius inventor, kind of like the heir

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Speaker 1: to a lot of the things that Tony Stark has done.

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Speaker 1: She will get her own advanced suit of armor. And

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Speaker 1: of course we're down, We're down in iron Man right now.

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Speaker 1: We need we need someone in the armor right now,

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Speaker 1: and it very much could be Reree Williams at some

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Speaker 1: point in time. Your thoughts, This is really exciting, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really exciting.

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Speaker 2: It connects to one of the things that we love

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Speaker 2: the most, which is like the reality that really is

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Speaker 2: going to be a big part of the Black Panther world.

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Speaker 1: It's Yeah, with.

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Speaker 2: Ryan being there, it seems like that is the case.

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Speaker 1: We were talking about this in a pre pro and

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Speaker 1: you had I don't know if this is your theory,

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Speaker 1: but it was the first I heard of it. You

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Speaker 1: had a good theory about how they may approach Black

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Speaker 1: Panther going forward.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is my current theory. I think that Marvel

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Speaker 2: really sees the impact that Black Panther had and the

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Speaker 2: what it meant to people around the world, what it

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Speaker 2: meant to black people, what it meant to African American

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Speaker 2: people in America, and I think that they're going to

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Speaker 2: use it as a tempole space for black heroes, and

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Speaker 2: I think that is going to be their hub. I

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Speaker 2: think that Reary Williams, who went to MIT and it

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Speaker 2: is like this unbelievably smart student. I don't think it's

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Speaker 2: a coincidence that Ryan Coogler is producing that show and

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Speaker 2: that Black Panther is one of the few movies were

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Speaker 2: kinda Forever that has ever been allowed to film actually

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Speaker 2: on the MIT campus because they said it would elevate

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Speaker 2: the school and promote the meanings. I don't think that

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Speaker 2: you're going to go to MIT and not see re Re,

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Speaker 2: you know, and we just say, you know, Rua Williams

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Speaker 2: created by Eve Ewing, who's just so brilliant, Mike Darto,

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Speaker 2: Brian Michael Bendis, Kevin Lebron, They're like, this is a crew.

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Speaker 2: But Eve was such a huge part of bringing Reedy

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Speaker 2: to life and making this character that we just all

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Speaker 2: love so much who immediately became a fan fave. And also,

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Speaker 2: if you think about re Read, the thing I think

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Speaker 2: is really exciting about this is this is not just

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Speaker 2: about new black characters. We're about to go into Armor Wars,

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Speaker 2: so we're gonna have this story where Roady is going

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Speaker 2: to be at the center of Armor Wars. It's going

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Speaker 2: to be a story about somebody misusing Stark Tech, and

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Speaker 2: Roady is going to need as many people as possible

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Speaker 2: on his side who understands Stark Tech, who understand technology.

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Speaker 2: Tony is no longer there. I would love to see

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Speaker 2: re Re brought in have a major part of that storyline.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think it's a I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: a mistake either. That uh MJ played by the wonderful

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Speaker 1: Daya and in Spider Man No Way Home where she

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Speaker 1: going to college, she's going to Mit. I think that

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Speaker 1: they are. It can't be a coincidence we're looking. I

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Speaker 1: would imagine that they will meet. And to your point,

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Speaker 1: maybe this is the the we're kind of witnessing the

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Speaker 1: early formations of what will be a hub for the

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Speaker 1: Brown superheroes in the MCU. Let's go to our recap

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Speaker 1: of Moonnight episode three, The Friendly Type, written by Bodomeo

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Speaker 1: and Peter Cameron and Sabir Prasada and directed by Mohammed Diab.

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Speaker 1: This was I was not expecting this episode to delve

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Speaker 1: into Stephen slash Marks experiences with this kind of like

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Speaker 1: consciousness dislocation, essentially mental illness in the way that it presents,

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Speaker 1: and this did it in a really evocative and interesting way.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into recap. Okay Layla had We open with

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Speaker 1: what we can only expect to be some kind of

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Speaker 1: cold open of which we will learn more. Layla is

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Speaker 1: having her passport forged, and she is griping about Mark

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Speaker 1: and what just went down with the SCAAB and how

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Speaker 1: now she has to go back to home to Egypt,

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Speaker 1: and she's not really too enthused about going back to Egypt.

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Speaker 1: She's been gone ten years, during which time she has

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Speaker 1: been busy repatriating ancient relics, which is a highly moral,

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Speaker 1: of course activity, also a very illegal activity, and also

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Speaker 1: one which she's not exactly doing out of the goodness

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Speaker 1: of her heart. She is she admits, like, yeah, making

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Speaker 1: money from some of that, Like I returned most of them,

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Speaker 1: and then some of them I do sell for a profit.

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Speaker 1: Layla's father, we learn, was archaeologist, which is very much

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Speaker 1: in keeping with the original Moon Night. Yeah, it's the

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Speaker 1: original moon Night comic.

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Speaker 2: If Layla is on Marline, who is Moonnight's often lover

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Speaker 2: and partner. Her father was an archaeologist. Her father was

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Speaker 2: innate to the origins of Moonnight, which we also get

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Speaker 2: into this episode, so definitely taking from those comacs.

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Speaker 1: And apparently her dad taught her the importance of the

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Speaker 1: forged documents when smuggling illicit artifacts across borders, and we're

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Speaker 1: left to wonder what possibly her dad would think of

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Speaker 1: her now. And then we flashed through the desert. Somewhere

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Speaker 1: in the desert, Arthur Harrow, guided by the scab arrives

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Speaker 1: at a mountain and we understand that this must be

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Speaker 1: the tomb of Ahmit. Elsewhere we meet Mark media res

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Speaker 1: like he is running into three tough guys, three local

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Speaker 1: guys who have just killed some person that has information

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Speaker 1: that Mark needs. And they are apparently in some way

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Speaker 1: either working for or affiliated with Arthur Harrow, and they

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Speaker 1: have knives and they twirl them flashily, and then Mark

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Speaker 1: fights them and he seems to have things pretty much

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Speaker 1: in hand, but then he seizes reflection in a knife blade,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, he's hurtling through time and

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Speaker 1: we understand that he's lost time. Now this is very

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Speaker 1: interesting because you'd think, and we have been primed to

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Speaker 1: expect that when something like this happens, the Stephen or

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Speaker 1: whoever the other person is that is, you know, waiting

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Speaker 1: on the bench, will then seize the body. But instead

429
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: Mark has just lost an unknown amount of time. And

430
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: he finds himself in the back of a taxi on

431
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: the way to the airport, and he as he's driving by,

432
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: he sees two of the tough guys that he was

433
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: just fighting on the street and he goes out and

434
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: he goes to fight them again, but then another glance

435
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: at his reflection, and the cycle repeats, and now Mark

436
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: is somewhere else in the city having just murdered one

437
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 1: of the guys. What do you think is going on here?

438
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: Is because this is interesting, This.

439
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 2: Is the thing, This is the interesting moment. So when

440
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 2: it first happens, I think we see Stephen say Mark

441
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: stop doing that or something, and you think, oh, well,

442
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 2: Stephen's taking the body. But as Mark wakes up and

443
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 2: he's stabbed this guy killing him, you know, the body

444
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: count here is very high. Mark's like, Stephen, what did

445
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 2: you do? Steven's like, right, I didn't do that. So

446
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 2: that I think the implication is here.

447
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 1: Jake Lockley way.

448
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: Because they are reimagining these characters in ways that we

449
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 2: haven't seen before. So it could be Jake Lockley. It

450
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 2: could be, for all we know, Konshu like a more

451
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 2: he's violently. It could be a character we haven't met yet.

452
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: It could be a reimagining of mister Knight. But obviously

453
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 2: I think the the immediate answer would be Jake Lockley.

454
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 2: And if I was Easter air hunting, which I always am,

455
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: I would say Mark waking up in the back of

456
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 2: a taxi, Jake Lockley.

457
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: As a taxi driver.

458
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 2: I feel like they won us to think of that. Also,

459
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: a funnyasterg from the opening Forger section, which is only

460
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 2: for people with hard of hearing or who have captions

461
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 2: on the forger who is credited as a forger. They

462
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 2: name her Leagaro, which is this really funny like nineteen

463
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 2: forties Marvel Egyptian hero who is also called Dyna Man.

464
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 2: So no, it's not the character, but that was the

465
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 2: funny st egg. But yeah, I think we're venturing into

466
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: more altars or personalities, or whichever version they decide to do.

467
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 2: And I think that, though it doesn't really get explored

468
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 2: much further here, I think a lot of people who

469
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: are watching the show are wondering when we're going to

470
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 2: see that, because it's such a key part of his personality.

471
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 2: And this definitely hints that we're on the way there,

472
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 2: and also that both Mark and Stephen are less comfortable

473
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 2: with violence than we first thought.

474
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,719
Speaker 1: And then there's a burgeoning alliance kind of a relationship

475
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: at least between the two, if a rocky one, it

476
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: will be interesting to see how they both react to

477
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: the understanding that there are more than them coming back

478
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: three because I don't. I don't think they've grasped that

479
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 1: quite yet. Although we are left with the with the

480
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: absolutely quite clear fact that there's someone not Stephen, not Mark,

481
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 1: who is coming through.

482
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 2: I think you actually touched on something there that's that

483
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: I hadn't necessarily given the show credit for the two

484
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 2: the two of them being the primary personalities at this

485
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: point as we know, it seemed like a strange choice

486
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 2: to me. But now that you mentioned that, I guess

487
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 2: it's given them time to kind of get to know

488
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: each other, build a rapport before potentially there is more conflict.

489
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 2: So it becomes a situation where it's the two of

490
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 2: them together understanding whatever is about tappen next in this

491
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 2: episode and the following three.

492
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 1: So Mark has just killed one of the tough guys

493
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: that leaves him with one more. Kanshu comes through as

494
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: a voice and is like, torture this guy, but this

495
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: one is really like a kid, like a young kid,

496
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: and a bunch of things happen, and basically the kid,

497
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: uh you know, is being held up by like his

498
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: tie and he cuts the tiny falls to his death.

499
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: Mark argues then with Stephen. He warns Steven, listen, you

500
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: got to stay out of my way. Mark wants to

501
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: ask the other gods for help. Why don't we ask

502
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: the other gods for help? Well, you know, why don't we?

503
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: Why don't we tell them what hero is planning? And

504
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: kan She was like, no, they would, they wouldn't. They

505
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: would just get annoyed. They're tired of me. They don't

506
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 1: want to listen to me. They if if I'm involved,

507
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 1: they will just ignore it. But I but actually I

508
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: think I do know a way how we could get

509
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: their attention without you having to go with them. Uh,

510
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: and it's a bad plan, but just let me go.

511
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: So basically, Kanshu causes an eclipse. So immediately the gods

512
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: opened a portal and are like, Mark, come here, you

513
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: need to talk to us, because this is a no no,

514
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,239
Speaker 1: just kind of like displaying to the to humanity that

515
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: we exist. Mark goes to the portal. He finds himself

516
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: inside the Great Pyramid at Giza. Mark meets the avatars

517
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: of the gods. Basically, they're human representatives on Earth who

518
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: the gods will speak through on occasion. One of them

519
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: is Yatsul, who is the representative of hathor goddess of

520
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: music and love and apparently you're left too. We are

521
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: left to surmise an old flame of Kanshu, just like

522
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: left on red after a while.

523
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, consh She's like that was a time when Konschu

524
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: used to like my rhythm. He's too upset to like yeah.

525
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. The other gods and their representatives include Horace, Isis,

526
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: tefnut Osiris, and Hathor of course, and they take control

527
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: of their avaturus bodies, and they invite Kanschhu to take

528
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: control of Stephen slash Mark and to make his case

529
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: about what's going on and what they should do about

530
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: Ahmed and Arthur Harrow. The gods have long huge to

531
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: a philosophy of non intervention in human affairs, because, as

532
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: they say, the humans to have just moved past them.

533
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: They don't really care about us anymore. So we've kind

534
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: of been, you know, doing things in the background. Kan

535
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: Chu finds this to be weak. A weak course of

536
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: action is like basically cowardly, and he charges Arthur Harrow,

537
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: his former avatar, with attempting to release Omit. Harrow arrives

538
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: through a portal to defend himself. He denies that this

539
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: is what he's doing. Kan Chu then using the Mark

540
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: Spector receiver and Grant body takes a swing at Arthur Harrow,

541
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: He's stopped by one of the gods who's like, listen,

542
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: you can't do that here. There's no violence here. What

543
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: are you doing. Haro then accuses Kanshu of essentially exploiting

544
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: a mentally ill manned Stephen Grant slash Mark Spector, a

545
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: person who is, you know, a quite willing servant, an

546
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: avatar of Kanchu, but also one who is not in

547
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: a place, is not in a place to really give

548
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: their consent to be the avatar of Kanchu. And I

549
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: think Haro, from what we've seen, I think Arthur Harrow

550
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: has something of a point. But of course we don't

551
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: know the whole story yet, but I would say that

552
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: it certainly it looks bad for Kanschhu. He was not

553
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: the most trustworthy of gods. From what we've seen.

554
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: Does Arthur wanna like be killing people minority reports? Yes,

555
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 2: they can make yes, yes in this moment, in this

556
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 2: pyramid is the episode? Does he seem like he's making

557
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: lots of good points and legitimately canall Stephen and Mark. Absolutely.

558
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: That's why I came away from this episode. I was

559
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: like one Stephen, Mark not very good at like this

560
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 2: would have been so easy to just cover up and

561
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: be like, I'm doing fine. This guy's trying to release Alma.

562
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: He has a compass. They were struggling, they were going

563
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: through it, and Harrow came off looking good. So no

564
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: surprise is that the gods were.

565
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: Like yeah, Mark. Mark then admits that to the room,

566
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: to the avatars of the gods, to Kanchu, and to Arthur.

567
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: Harrow's like, listen, uh, I'm going through it a little

568
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: bit and I need help. For sure, I would like

569
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: some help. And that was I felt that that was

570
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: a big step for Mark to take. But he also says, listen,

571
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: that doesn't change the fact that Arthur Harrow wants to

572
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: go on a killing spring. He wants to kill a

573
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: lot of people, and he wants to release Omit to

574
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: do that. He wants to just commit genocide on a

575
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: global scale. And then the gods are likenh we go

576
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: with Harrow and the matters closed. That's it, We're shutting

577
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: it down. They leave, but then Yatzil hangs around clearly

578
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: has some sort of warm feeling for Mark, and she

579
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: points Mark to a clue by which he might find

580
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: Omit's tumb without the scareub the Sarcophagus of Senfu, which

581
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: apparently has recently hit the black market. Leyla and Mark reunite.

582
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: You get a feeling from these scenes that clearly they

583
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: were actually in love. At one point, and Mark tells

584
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: her that he's listen, I'm sorry for hiding how much

585
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: I was struggling from you, and they come to an

586
00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: uneasy piece. They then arrive at the home of Mogart,

587
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: the antiquities dealer on the banks of the Nile, where

588
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: they are going to find sin Foo's sarcophagus. Leaylan and

589
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: Mark are posing as this kind of like married couple

590
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: who just want to study this sarcophagus for a second.

591
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: Mogart is like, why are you so interested in sin

592
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: foo sarcophagus? And Mark's like, ADDI yeah, don't worry about it.

593
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 2: Mark does another bad job, but covering up, He's like.

594
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: Very bad, very very bad Mark. Then, of course, of

595
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: course Mark doesn't know anything about Egyptology, right, and Laylan

596
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: knows some stuff, but not as much as this third

597
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: person who is waiting in the wings, Stephen Grant. And

598
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: Mark is like, I know that I need to let

599
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: Stephen out so he can read these higher glyphs so

600
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: we can understand how to find om It's tomb. But

601
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: I really don't want to do it, but fuck okay,

602
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: I'll do it. Stephen then talks Mark through the puzzle

603
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: and the sarcophagus. Before they can learn anything, Mogart interrupts

604
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: and takes Mark prisoner. Then Harrow interrupts, offering Mogart the

605
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: Scarab in exchange for Layla and Mark, who's surely like

606
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: he's gonna kill soon after. Harrow then vows Wow's Mogart

607
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: with a small display of its power. Mark dons the

608
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: suit and then we get the big fight and it

609
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: is an action packed episode Moonnight and Laylah versus Harrow's

610
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: people and and Mogart's people. Laila we see can really

611
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: handle herself.

612
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 2: And they are killing people. They killing people.

613
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: They're flat out dropping people to the ground. And we

614
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: also get a great uh We get a great front

615
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: row view seat of how powerful the Moonnight suit is

616
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: and Kanshu's blessing is because he is stopping bullets with

617
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: his cape. He is taking damage that is not killing him.

618
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 2: Ice comic book Moon Cape, you know, he jumps off

619
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 2: and you see, it's in the Crescent Moon, and it's

620
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: all very common. This is actually very superhero episode in

621
00:34:59,000 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 2: the way.

622
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: That really we get to see how how deadly Moonnight

623
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: is with those moon orangs, possibly crafted by Clint Barton

624
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: in the past. Stephen Grant watching all of this from

625
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: somewhere else, you know, inside the consciousness of Mark is

626
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: appalled and the violence. Yeah, he's appalled at the violence

627
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: that Specter is unleashing. And he manages to seize control

628
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: of the body, and all of a sudden, the suit

629
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 1: morphs into the Mister Knight variety. He immediately gets impaled

630
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: by a spear and he's like, okay, you know what, Mark,

631
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: you take it? Yeah, I got about you take it.

632
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: And so Mark is just like back in the body

633
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: and is immediately like double speared by by some of

634
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 1: Morgart's men. Meanwhile, Layla is at the Sarcophagus and she's

635
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: fighting one of Margo's henche's, and we watch as Layla

636
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: takes off her necklace, which we think is just like

637
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: a stylish and striking statement piece, but no, it's actually

638
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: like a double edged like dagger, too dagger than street.

639
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: She straight up murders a sorry back and then runs

640
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: to Mark's rescue, but gets the wind knocked out of

641
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 1: her by Margot and Mark needing to run to her rescue,

642
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: then like just basically snaps all the spears out of

643
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: his body, which is a really impressive display of healing factor.

644
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: He then kills Margot with a moon orang. Layla grabs

645
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,399
Speaker 1: the whatever was in Sanfu's tomb, which we've later learned

646
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: as a map, and they and they go off to

647
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: find out. In the car, Laila and Mark are talking

648
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: about what Harrow had said about Mark and all the

649
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 1: things he had revealed about how Mark was mentally ill

650
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 1: and how he's struggling, although they don't quite you know,

651
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 1: name it as anything. And she's upset that. She's like,

652
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: you know, every time I find out something about you,

653
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: it's like you're a whole new other person. It's like

654
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: I don't know you at all. And Mark, kind of

655
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: surprisingly but also refreshingly, he's like, you're right, you don't

656
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: know me. Now. Don't let Harrow, you know, get in

657
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: between us. Don't let him poison us against each other,

658
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: because we need to stay strong right now. And after

659
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: a while they arrive at a place in the desert

660
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: where they can read this map, which turns out to

661
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: be a star map. They have to call Stephen again

662
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: because he's the only one that can put all these

663
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: pieces together in the way that they need to go together.

664
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: Mark is annoyed again, but he knows it's right. Stephen

665
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: takes over, and what I think is one of the

666
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: best single moments of acting, like in a Disney plus

667
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: Marvel show, is Oscar Isaac looking into his reflection as

668
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: Mark Spector and then wordlessly transforming into Stephen Grant with

669
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 1: just like a relaxation of his face. It was really

670
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 1: really cool. Stephen then swings into action. He's really excited

671
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: by all this. He assembles the map while man explaining

672
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: ancient Egyptian navigation techniques. But apparently, here's the thing. The

673
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: map was created thousands of years ago. The stars have

674
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: moved since then, so they need to know the actual

675
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: date of when this map was created in order for

676
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 1: them to figure out where Amus tomb is. Kanshu comes

677
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: back Conch. She's like, oh, you know what, I remember

678
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: the night that this was created. Really well, give me

679
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: a hand, Stephen, do do what I do. Let's turn

680
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: the stars back to the positions they were thousands of

681
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: years ago on the night this map was created. So

682
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 1: they do so, and people all around the world, we

683
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: would assume, although we only see people in Egypt, but

684
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: we would assume all around the world people would see

685
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: the sky just warping with trails of stars as the

686
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: sky gets rewound back centuries and centuries and centuries and centuries.

687
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: And of course we understand that the gods had already

688
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: warned Kanshu about the eclipse, and so they as as

689
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,240
Speaker 1: soon as they get wind of this, which is quite quickly,

690
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: they are going to lock Kanchu up. Yeah, and Kanhu's like,

691
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: listen when that happens, Mark, I need you to free me.

692
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: So okay, They're gonna lock me up, and then I

693
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: need you to free me. The god's an imprisoned Conshu

694
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: in a que country statue. They just like suck his energy.

695
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: It was there already there are and and his energy

696
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: goes into it. Stephen collapses or Mark or whoever he

697
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: is in that moment, Jake Blockley who knows, and the

698
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: gods avatars show Harrow the Conshu statue and Haro's like, hey,

699
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: can I be alone to just kind of like talk

700
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: shit to this. He can hear me in there, right,

701
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 1: and they're like, yeah, we think so He's like, all right,

702
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: let's just give me a little privacy so I can

703
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: talk shit to this to Kanchu Haro, it's quite clear

704
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: from the things he says now carries a lot of

705
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,720
Speaker 1: animosity and probably rightly so, from his time as Conchu's avatar.

706
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: And then he essentially says, listen, what I'm gonna do

707
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: with AMA's help, I e Mass murder on a global scale.

708
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: It's really it's really your fault. It's your fault, one

709
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: hundred percent, your fault for the way that you treated

710
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: me as your avatar and for the things I had

711
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: to do as your avatar. And we are onto episode

712
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: four next week. Your thoughts on this on this episode, Rosie.

713
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 2: There's lots of stuff to dig into here. I mean,

714
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 2: this introduces us. One of the things I think is

715
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 2: really interesting is this introduces us to like the Egyptian gods.

716
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 2: And obviously they are real gods from real history, but

717
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 2: in Marvel, those gods all exist. So it's like the

718
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 2: Heliopolitans is what they call them. That's basically like a

719
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 2: god supergroup. So I thought that was really interesting. A

720
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 2: lot of connections to Thor. That's where Isis and Osiris

721
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 2: all debuted in nineteen seventy five Store two three nine. Like,

722
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: I thought that was really interesting because I wonder if

723
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: we're gonna ever get to the space of having like

724
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 2: an ancient Egyptian as guardian kind of space in the

725
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: Marvel universe. We know that they mentioned are the members

726
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 2: in Black Panther, you know they mentioned bast so I

727
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: thought that was really cool. I like anything that's like

728
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 2: cosmic or mythological. I think the Jake Lockley was it him?

729
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: Was it not? Is there another altar coming through? That's

730
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 2: the big theory piece. I also think that this is

731
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: a really big episode for Leila, who is definitely like

732
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 2: huge one of our favorite characters. May Klamaui is just

733
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 2: so great. She has this real evy from the Mummy energy.

734
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 2: She's very like cheeky, and she turns up in Egypt

735
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 2: to help Mark even though he's mad, disrespectful, he wanted

736
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 2: to get divorce. He didn't tell her. He has like

737
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: a secondary personality like Steven's kind of winning creepy to her,

738
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: but she was just there. She was like, pow, I

739
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 2: don't care I'm going to Egypt. I'm gonna help you

740
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 2: out and in this so we really learn in this

741
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: episode that they're definitely leaning into the scarlet scarab thing.

742
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 2: If you actually watch the trailers, there's a photo of

743
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: Layla and her dad and next to it is a

744
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 2: scarlet piece of cloth with a scarab onnet. So I

745
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: really think we're getting that Marlene mixed with this potential

746
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:33,439
Speaker 2: connection that she may have to the Scarab. I'm I'm

747
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 2: really interested to see where things go, because this is

748
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 2: another show like Hawkeye Wear. For example, Anton Mogart, who

749
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 2: you mentioned, is this in this is this kind of

750
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 2: art dealer, black market dodgy guy. He's been to madrapor

751
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 2: with Leila. That's a big drop. In the comics, he

752
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 2: is a Moonnight villain. He debuted in Moonnight number three

753
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: and he was called Midnight Man Midnight Man, And so

754
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 2: did he really die in this episode or are we

755
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 2: going to see him come back again and kind of

756
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: be a more primary antagonist. It looked like he didn't

757
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 2: do very well, but in the comics he gets like

758
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 2: disfigured and then comes back as a kind of masked

759
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 2: hero who works alongside the Number one Missing character from

760
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 2: this series likely a good thing. Ral Bushman, who is

761
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 2: like a was Moonnight's partner on the Fateful Trip where

762
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 2: he gained his powers. That's a very problematic character, so

763
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 2: if they reimagined, it would have to be kind of

764
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 2: like a Umbaku Star reimagining, where you take a character

765
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 2: that has really problematic elements and make something really special.

766
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: The fact that Mogart was there makes me think that

767
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: we might have some kind of Bushman illusion or situation

768
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: as we go forward, because also in this episode, Harrow

769
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 2: hints at what happened to Laila's dad on this archaeological quest,

770
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 2: and we also know that in Moonnight's origin, as you've

771
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: mentioned before, he was part of a kind of terrible

772
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 2: tragedy in the desert, and we know that in this

773
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 2: show Mark Spector was accused of murdering an archaeologist. So

774
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 2: I think we can put together some clears that there's

775
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 2: going to be a tragic situation going on, and.

776
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,959
Speaker 1: We should mention that the actor Gaspard Uliel, who played

777
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: Anton Morgart, passed away this January in a skiing accident.

778
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 1: The mage poor name drop was interesting because clearly, you

779
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: know Madrapoor is a city of a vast illegal interests,

780
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: so it would make sense that stolen antiquities moved through there,

781
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: and of course it's a place that has strong ties

782
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: to the X Men.

783
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the wildest thing to me. Like every time

784
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 2: they say, I know they established it, Sharon Carr, powerbroker,

785
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: that's probably where they're going. But I always think of

786
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 2: the X Men of Wolverine, of Patch. You know, it's

787
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 2: so exciting every time I hear them say it.

788
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, so just just for people who don't know, in uh,

789
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: I think it's supposed to In like early nineties, late eighties,

790
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 1: Wolverine got his own solo series. And how this guy

791
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: managed to be in the X Men and then do

792
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 1: all the adventures he did on his own while traveling

793
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: like coast to coast and internationally, I don't know. But

794
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: this guy was a very busy guy, and he spent

795
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: a lot of time living in Madopoor under this persona

796
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 1: of Patch who is this kind of Rapscallion bar Denizen

797
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: later club owner who rubbed elbows with pirates and various gangsters,

798
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 1: but was a good guy. And you know, honestly, most

799
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 1: of Wolverine is set there. So whenever magicpoor comes up,

800
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, oh gosh, here comes the x Menter.

801
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: And we in Falcon and the Winter Soldier. They even

802
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 2: had the Princess Bar, which is where Patch would always

803
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 2: hang out, So like they want us to make those connections.

804
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 2: And I also saw put a really cool note that

805
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 2: I wouldn't really have thought of, which is like post

806
00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 2: Shang Chi, Jai Ling is running the ten Ring and

807
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 2: that's obviously going to be deeply connected to Madripal. Now

808
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 2: that Sharon Kaw and Leila, I'm like, yeah, probably, But

809
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 2: Jai Ling and Leila, I'm like, I would like to

810
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 2: see that, Like that's a relationship I want to know about. Like,

811
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 2: so I think they this is an episode where it

812
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 2: seems like it's just this action packmom superhero, but it

813
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 2: seems like they're they're spreading a lot of seeds that

814
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 2: could kind of sprout into different things, whether they're in

815
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 2: this show or in The Great or MCU.

816
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. And I can't help but notice that

817
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: the episode starts with Mark Spector losing time, passing out,

818
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: losing time, waking up in a different place, not knowing

819
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: how he got there. We can only assume that someone

820
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:43,720
Speaker 1: else was in control of the body, but not Stephen,

821
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: because Steven's not talking about it, and Steven doesn't seem

822
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: to know what happened either. And here at the end

823
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: of this we have Stephen, who was in control at

824
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: the time, passing out after Conshou's energy is trapped in

825
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: the statue. I wonder, when Mark slash Stephen wake up

826
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: where we are? Like where we are? Is that a

827
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: moment when Jake or whoever the other personality is comes through.

828
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: But I think I would expect that we're going to

829
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 1: a new kind of place in the next episode.

830
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: I think so too, especially if you think about how

831
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 2: prominent the museum was in the first episode, and then

832
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 2: in the second episode, has Stephen got closer to Mark,

833
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 2: the museum was suddenly he was fired, he suddenly couldn't

834
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 2: be there anymore. And in this episode when he's embracing Mark,

835
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 2: he's in Egypt. So the idea of another altar, another personality,

836
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 2: another side of himself coming out, it makes sense that

837
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 2: that would potentially lead us to a different space.

838
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 1: And it's also interesting to me, and who knows if

839
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 1: this means anything, but when this unknown personality came through,

840
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 1: it was when to your point one, it kind of

841
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 1: hints that maybe certainly Mark is maybe less has less

842
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: of an affinity for violence than we were expecting, which

843
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 1: would And it was also moments where it seemed like

844
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: the body of Steven slash Mark was in its most

845
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 1: perilous state, which would kind of it suggests maybe that

846
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: whoever the other personality is, that they are somehow letting

847
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: Stephen and Mark run around and do things until like

848
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: there's an emergency and they need to take control. So

849
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: it would suggest that whoever that other personality is, they

850
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: are moving pieces around in a more direct way than

851
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: either Stephen or Mark and have more of a full

852
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: picture maybe than Steven or Mark.

853
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely there is a hint here, and for

854
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 2: the beginning, I thought from the beginning, I thought it

855
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: was quntrue, but we know that that's not the case now.

856
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 2: And also something else interesting to think about is like

857
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 2: who is keeping them alive? Who is giving them the power?

858
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 2: If Konshu has been trapped in the comics, Mark being

859
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 2: separated from Konshu usually leads to him losing his powers

860
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 2: or having to regain them in a different way by

861
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 2: meeting the priests of Konshu by gaining an artifact. So

862
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,879
Speaker 2: I think that the idea that there may be more

863
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 2: puppet master alter or a different person who is more

864
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 2: in control and is allowing them to kind of have

865
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: their fun where they can until it becomes dangerous would

866
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:30,959
Speaker 2: make a lot of sense.

867
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 1: When we're back, we'll be discussing fantasy and science fiction

868
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: and interviewing the great author Nicola Griffith. Welcome to the

869
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: air lock. This podcast is coming out on Friday, April fifteenth,

870
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: and it is the same day that the latest Fantastic

871
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 1: Beasts movie is releasing in theaters. We won't be covering

872
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: that just because you know, I have covered a lot

873
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: of JK Rowling content over the course of my career,

874
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: and I've enjoyed it. But I just don't think that

875
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: I can I can possibly give her money anymore or

876
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: take part in any kind of situation that would potentially

877
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: give her money, particularly with the kind of climate in

878
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: society right now towards trans people and the increasing peril

879
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: and aggressive language that the lgbt q AI community writ

880
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 1: large is being faced with. So we wanted to take

881
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: this opportunity to just talk about other authors, other creatives

882
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: in the sci fi fantasy space, with a focus on

883
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 1: queer creators, creators of color, just like a more diverse

884
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: set of sci fi and fantasy creators. That's what we

885
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 1: I wanted to do. So with that, gosh, do you

886
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: have any thoughts on the New Fantastic Beast movie and JK.

887
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 1: Rowling in general and this whole situation that we find

888
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:09,320
Speaker 1: ourselves in.

889
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: Yes, I do have. I do have thoughts about it.

890
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 2: I am exactly on the same page as you. You know,

891
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 2: this is something that was a large part of my childhood.

892
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 2: I am the age that I was in school and

893
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 2: was basically analogous ages to the kids in the books.

894
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 2: It was a book series that meant a lot to me.

895
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 2: I worked in a bookshop so I would be able

896
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 2: to go to the opening nights when I was still

897
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 2: not legally even old enough to really work. It was

898
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 2: something that meant a lot to me. But it's something

899
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 2: that I now can no longer enjoy. It's something I

900
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 2: used to cover. It's part of what my knowledge base

901
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 2: is the same as you. That was part of my career,

902
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: and there's just you know what, there's better stories out

903
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 2: there told by people who aren't actively harming communities that

904
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,359
Speaker 2: I love and care about, and we're going to talk

905
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 2: about them, and it's going to be amazing, and I

906
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 2: feel incredibly lucky to share this space with you, someone

907
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 2: who cares about this stuff and understands exactly why we're

908
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 2: folks on something else.

909
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: I just think it's terribly alarming, right, it's alarming. This

910
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: is not to say that it was not dangerous and

911
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 1: potentially toxic, harmful rhetoric previously, but I think like the

912
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 1: events of like the last six months even just make

913
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: it feel much more pressing and uh and something that

914
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: kind of like actively needs to be pushed back against.

915
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 2: I think the situation is that the reason that it's

916
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 2: always been so dangerous is that having prominent figures with

917
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 2: huge followings who are seen as respectable or liberal or

918
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 2: whatever else saying these things are why these legislations can

919
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 2: be brought in. It's why they have the support, it's

920
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 2: why people know these terminologies. It's so it has an

921
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 2: active effect that is negative and dangerous and sometimes fatal.

922
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 2: And I absolutely agree with you, it's it's it's time

923
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 2: to push back on it, and it's time to celebrate

924
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 2: other stuff that lifts people up and and open spaces

925
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 2: for people and changes people's lives in a positive way

926
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 2: rather than a dangerous one.

927
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: In the realm of books. I love that turns out

928
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 1: that the author was a shithead. Enders Game. Enders Game

929
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 1: is like one of was one of the things I

930
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 1: was thinking about. That is a friend's older brother like

931
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: recommended it to me, and it like crushed me. Like

932
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 1: I was sobbing at the end of that book. And

933
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 1: then it became quite clear like in not recent years,

934
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 1: but I would say in the last like eight years

935
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:30,919
Speaker 1: or so, that Orson Scott Card had some really terrible views,

936
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: particularly on the issues of homosexuality and LGBTQAI issues, and

937
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 1: it just, man, I just had to drop that. I

938
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: just had to drop that series that not not interact

939
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 1: with any Orson Scott Card content anymore. And I gotta

940
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: say you, I love Enders Game. I think it's a

941
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: great book still because none of that toxic ideas that

942
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: he has are you know, it's been a number of

943
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: years since I read it, but it seemed present in

944
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:57,879
Speaker 1: the book at the time.

945
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 2: I will say, just he calls if I'm not mistaken,

946
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 2: like the aliens in that are.

947
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: Called the buggers.

948
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, buggers. Bugger is like slang for gay sex in England,

949
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,359
Speaker 2: so he really he built well, it's the same mine.

950
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 2: Mine was like, this is so funny because you don't

951
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 2: really think of him as like a sci fi author.

952
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 2: But one of the first books that I ever really

953
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 2: remember that was like deep when this was when I

954
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 2: was a little little kid, when I was deep into

955
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 2: that felt that you were really going into space is

956
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 2: Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator, which is the sequel

957
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 2: to Charlie and the Chocolate Factory by Rodahl, who it

958
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 2: turns out, is like a massive anti semi But like

959
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 2: when I was a kid, I remember that book. He

960
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 2: goes up in the elevator right with his family and

961
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 2: they go on the US they end up on a

962
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 2: space station, and that was one of the first interactions

963
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 2: I had with sci fi. But again, you learn these

964
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 2: things and then you're like, well, let me find someone else.

965
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 2: And luckily there are like a ton of amazing creators

966
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 2: who are who are doing the opposite, who are using

967
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 2: doing the thing that people have always done with sci fi,

968
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 2: which is and fantasy, which is to make analogous stories

969
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 2: about real wild depression and find like the important way

970
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 2: to kind of talk about it.

971
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 1: My personal philosophy is when things like this occur, and

972
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:18,320
Speaker 1: particularly with particular UH focus on on Jk's work in

973
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 1: the Harry Potter series, which which is again a story

974
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: series of series of books that I really love and

975
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: UH and through which I found a community of like

976
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 1: minded people whose company and relationships I still enjoy. My

977
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: personal philosophy is like, Okay, no more money, I'm not

978
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 1: gonna support this. I'm not going to be buying the

979
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: legacy of Hogwarts game, I'm not gonna be covering the stuff.

980
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 1: But when it comes to like what happens? Can I

981
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 1: reread the books that one is more, I kind of

982
00:54:54,040 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: feel like seizing these works from their author is like

983
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: a kind of like a revolution For me. It feels

984
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: like a revolutionary act of like, fuck you, you don't

985
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:08,840
Speaker 1: own this anymore, in the sense that like the people

986
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: whose lives were touched by this and who found other

987
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: connections through these stories, they should not now have to

988
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: vacate this space because it turns out are bad. What

989
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:24,879
Speaker 1: should happen is they should then seize this space from

990
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 1: you and continue in their cultural relationships, the bonds that

991
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,399
Speaker 1: they have with the communities they've created, and they should

992
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 1: just like seize this story from me. So that's like

993
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 1: how I feel about it when it comes like, you know,

994
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: there are chapters still in Harry Potter that I like

995
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: to read, but I just will never give her money anymore.

996
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: I just can't.

997
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of like power in that,

998
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 2: and a lot also a lot of those conversations, Like

999
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 2: there's an amazing non binary cartoonist that we were talking about,

1000
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:55,919
Speaker 2: Maya Cababe who made Harry Potter fansy and called Harry

1001
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 2: Potter and the problematic author that was all about that

1002
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 2: kind of journey, and I think it's really important to

1003
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 2: have those conversations and to kind of talk about what

1004
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 2: it means like to separate that from the eyes. I mean,

1005
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 2: I personally don't get any joy out of rereading them anymore,

1006
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,800
Speaker 2: but I used to. There was there was chapters in

1007
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 2: Harry Potter that that was the only way I could

1008
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 2: go to sleep as a kid, was to read the

1009
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 2: chapter where he's on the night bus and he's got

1010
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:24,880
Speaker 2: the hot chocolate and the hot water bottle. Yeah, and

1011
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 2: he's on his way. You know, that was And it's

1012
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 2: it's sad to lose those things, but that's the power

1013
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 2: of the singular author. Right, Yeah, that's power of it.

1014
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 1: Let's move on to just what we're reading and any

1015
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,399
Speaker 1: kind of stories, authors, wonderful tales, creators that we want

1016
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:43,800
Speaker 1: to lift up right now. Do you have any recommendations?

1017
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I talk a lot. There's a there's a brilliant

1018
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 2: book that I read a lot of YA books that

1019
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 2: which I guess comes from that legacy of these books

1020
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 2: that we're talking about that we really enjoy. There's a

1021
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 2: book I read that I sort of haven't forgotten about

1022
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 2: that I've reread a couple of times called Cemetry Boys

1023
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 2: by A Thomas's trans author trans lead character, and it

1024
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 2: is just so wonderful. It's about a boy called Yadril

1025
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 2: who wants to become a Bruha and tries to summon

1026
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 2: a spirit to prove it, but ends up freeing a

1027
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 2: different spirit and then it becomes this kind of really

1028
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 2: dynamic exploration of love and friendship and legacy. And I

1029
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 2: just that book is so wonderful and it's very much

1030
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 2: to me like the kind of power of when somebody

1031
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 2: gets to tell a story that represents who they are

1032
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 2: but is also just absolutely unburdened and it's just allowed

1033
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 2: to be completely free and adventurous and fantastical. I think

1034
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 2: that's kind of the power ironically that actually a lot

1035
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 2: of Harry Potter and stuff was missing because Harry Potter

1036
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 2: is like it takes from a lot of different stories,

1037
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 2: but those stories were often the same stories being told

1038
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 2: by the same people. So symmetry boys is I always

1039
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 2: tell everyone just go and buy that book. It's it's

1040
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 2: so good.

1041
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 1: One book that I read recently that I just absolutely

1042
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: love is The Space Between Worlds by Makaia Johnson. I

1043
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: think it's her debut novel, and it is a really

1044
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: wonderful here's that word again, multiverse story, high concept in

1045
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 1: which people from let's just call it like Earth one

1046
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: travel to various closely related dimensions in order to see, Oh,

1047
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: of there are there any technology that they've developed that

1048
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: that can help us deal with the ecological disaster that

1049
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 1: our current planet is under, or you know, help us

1050
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 1: you know, grow food more efficiently, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. There

1051
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: anything we can learn from these other worlds in glean

1052
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 1: and bring back to our world. All through that, there

1053
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 1: is the idea there is you know, You're left to

1054
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 1: wonder as you read the early parts of this story, like, okay,

1055
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: but is it happening in reverse? Are there are there

1056
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: people from the other Earth coming to it? And so

1057
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 1: all of those questions are things that get answered. It's

1058
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 1: a really amazing story about about class, about race. It

1059
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: is a wonderful sci fi tale, really like heartbreakingly told.

1060
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 1: Just a really good, really good book, really surprising, and

1061
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: a great multiverse story that unfolds in a way that

1062
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: you're not expecting.

1063
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 2: One of my favorite things that I always talk about

1064
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 2: when people ask about like what's like a good queer

1065
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 2: comic or what's like a good story that kind of

1066
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 2: focused on different kinds of people. Tillie Walden, who is

1067
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 2: like one of our greatest living cartoonists and who is

1068
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 2: painfully talented for someone in the early twenties, made this

1069
00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 2: unbelievable hundreds of pages long web comic called on Sunbeam,

1070
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 2: which you can also buy in a beautiful bound edition,

1071
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 2: but they never took down the free web comic, which

1072
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:11,919
Speaker 2: I love, and it is the most sprawling, strange, beautifully

1073
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 2: illustrated story about these kids on this spaceship and this

1074
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 2: kind of ongoing journey that's about them and about the

1075
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 2: journeys they're going on in their relationships, but it's also

1076
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 2: about the journey of growing up. But it's also just

1077
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 2: a really cool, weird, quiet space story. But there are

1078
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 2: elements of magical school fantasy to it. The spaceship kind

1079
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 2: of grows and shifts and it's so wondrous and when

1080
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 2: you read it you don't really realize till the end.

1081
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 2: But there is a very specific focus on a certain

1082
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 2: kind of character, and there is a very specific decentering

1083
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 2: of like the usual male heroic protagonist. And it's one

1084
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 2: of the most sort of subtly radical books that I've

1085
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 2: read in a long time. And it's also Tilly's art

1086
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 2: is so beautiful and intricate, Like this is one of

1087
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 2: those comics where you can really go back and just

1088
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 2: read it a million times and you always notice something different.

1089
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 1: Next. This is specifically why we're going to have our

1090
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 1: guest in our next segment.

1091
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 2: Come on.

1092
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 1: But Nicola Griffith's hild Yeah talked about in various places

1093
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 1: from twenty thirteen. Nicola is a wonderful writer, queer writer,

1094
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 1: disabled writer who writes really empathically and wonderfully in just

1095
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 1: like ways that are completely evocative. There are scenes in

1096
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 1: Hill that I think about all the time. I reread

1097
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 1: all the time because they're just about you know, like

1098
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 1: I came to like, I think a lot of people

1099
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: comic books in sci fi and fantasy, because like there's

1100
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 1: this feeling of like outsider news, like you're looking for

1101
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 1: you're looking for a place where your own personal strangeness

1102
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 1: and the way you don't fit, like the piece about

1103
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 1: you that maybe don't fit. You're looking for the way

1104
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 1: that world where they do kind of fit.

1105
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 3: Right.

1106
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 1: And this is like page one of hild describing the

1107
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 1: character hill To, who at this point as a three

1108
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 1: year old girl, she liked time at the edges of things,

1109
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 1: the edges of the crowd, the edge of the pool,

1110
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 1: the edge of the wood were almost pass but none

1111
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 1: quite belonged. And that's basically the entire book is how

1112
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 1: this character who is a woman in a world where

1113
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 1: women are not viewed as having any kind of power,

1114
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 1: and their work is seen as somehow lesser work. There's

1115
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 1: a great, really evocative, very small moment where like a

1116
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 1: certain warrior who is having a dalliance with one of

1117
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 1: the women characters, offers to help her, you know, bring

1118
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 1: some of the washing in. But as long as it's

1119
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 1: night and no one will see that he is helping

1120
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 1: her with like women's work, you know, in exchange for

1121
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: them hanging out longer. Like there's all these little moments

1122
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 1: that bring you into the power of the people like

1123
01:02:56,680 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: who are overlooked, And it's just like a really really

1124
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 1: really really amazing book, really really amazing books. That's like

1125
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 1: there's some great plot turns, really hard like pounding like

1126
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 1: suspense and action, but all these also these really like

1127
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 1: internal quiet moments about noticing the way people interact, Noticing

1128
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 1: the way people treat the main character, Notice how they

1129
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 1: treat each other, Notice how they act when they're anxious.

1130
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 1: It's a lot about noticing, which is what I love

1131
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 1: about it.

1132
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so much detail. Nikolas an amazing I love

1133
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 2: that book so much. And Nikolas another amazing book coming

1134
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 2: out called Spear, which is kind of this queer authorian

1135
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 2: me imagining, and it's not out yet, so I won't

1136
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 2: get too deep into details, but it definitely comes from

1137
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 2: that same space of the edges, Like we're on the edges,

1138
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 2: and the journey is to find the other people who

1139
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 2: are our family, who are also on the edges, to

1140
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 2: find that community. And I think that's such a powerful

1141
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 2: thing kind of about all of these books and what

1142
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 2: we look for. Strek is going to be like one

1143
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 2: of the most This is one of the books I

1144
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 2: think about the most that I've read recently, which is

1145
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:09,800
Speaker 2: called Pet by a quakm Ezi, and it is like,

1146
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:16,880
Speaker 2: this is like the kind of transgressive fiction that I

1147
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 2: feel like doesn't often get published, but this did. And

1148
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 2: it is a kid's book, but it's also an adults book,

1149
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 2: and it is set in a futuristic world where where

1150
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:34,600
Speaker 2: monsters don't exist, but then a monster escapes out of

1151
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:40,959
Speaker 2: an artist's canvas and suddenly this young black trans girl

1152
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:45,200
Speaker 2: who is the protagonist begins to question whether or not

1153
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 2: these monsters do exist, and whether or not what the

1154
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 2: society has done by kind of shunning them. And it's

1155
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,720
Speaker 2: really analogous to all this incredibly deep stuff. And as

1156
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:55,439
Speaker 2: you read it as an adult, I feel like there's

1157
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 2: so many terrifying, emotionally wrought layers to it. But it

1158
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 2: also imagines a world where, in you know, the beginning,

1159
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,240
Speaker 2: a black trans girl is safe, and in that way,

1160
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 2: it's this incredibly utopian. It's that use of radical imagination

1161
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 2: that we will talk about a lot like to make

1162
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 2: a better world, you have to imagine it. And I

1163
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 2: feel like in a way, Hill does that in a

1164
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 2: historical way where it rewrites history and broadens the scope

1165
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 2: of who was involved, which is just true because the

1166
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 2: people didn't not exist, they were just written out. And

1167
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 2: Pet does it in a way where it helps us

1168
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 2: to imagine like a future. And I just that book

1169
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 2: I think about so much. I feel like it's one

1170
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 2: of those books where in years to come it will

1171
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:38,880
Speaker 2: become a kind of you know, I always think about

1172
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 2: very different book, but Neil Gaiman Stardust, that's a book

1173
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 2: where you could give it to a kid and you

1174
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:45,320
Speaker 2: could give it to an adult, and two people would

1175
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 2: read it in totally different ways. And Pet really feels

1176
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 2: like a great contemporary version of one of those kind

1177
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 2: of timeless, ageless stories.

1178
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 1: And then my last wreck, I'm going to go nonfiction.

1179
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:01,680
Speaker 1: There are a lot of heroin things going on right

1180
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 1: now in the news, and it can be like difficult

1181
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:10,440
Speaker 1: to like process everything. Susan Sontag, the essayist, philosopher, writer, novelist, thinker,

1182
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:15,560
Speaker 1: wrote a really moving and wise and powerful book called

1183
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:18,440
Speaker 1: Regarding the Pain of Others. It's really like a long essay,

1184
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 1: and it's about how in modern life. It's kind of

1185
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,800
Speaker 1: a companion to her essay on photography, just like about

1186
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:31,200
Speaker 1: what it means to like regard images that have been

1187
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 1: mass produced and moved from different places. And it's a

1188
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 1: companion in that it posits that in the modern world,

1189
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 1: like it's never been easier for us to see and

1190
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:49,560
Speaker 1: engage with images that depict other people suffering, other people's pain,

1191
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:51,520
Speaker 1: et cetera. And so like, how do we deal with that?

1192
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: How do we sit with that?

1193
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:53,640
Speaker 3: What do we do?

1194
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: What does it mean if you can't quote unquote do anything,

1195
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 1: is it enough to just look at it and think

1196
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:04,960
Speaker 1: about it and feel something about it? I found it

1197
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: very moving and very wise. And it's a book that

1198
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:10,920
Speaker 1: I think about a lot all the time still.

1199
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 2: And I'm going to end with We've talked about, you know,

1200
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 2: the Boy Wizard, the Boy who Lived. It's something we

1201
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 2: talk about a lot. It's an overarching story of our time.

1202
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:23,440
Speaker 2: But I have read a book that comes out in

1203
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:28,080
Speaker 2: May called The Marvelers by Donnielle Clayton, and it feels

1204
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 2: like it could be and it should be that next

1205
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 2: kind of cultural phenomenon book. Oh wow, it's a global

1206
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:41,920
Speaker 2: reimagining of the magical story, like magical school story. It's

1207
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,320
Speaker 2: about a girl called Ella who goes to this Arkanam

1208
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 2: training academy for Marvelers and she is a conjurer at

1209
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:52,439
Speaker 2: this school in the sky. But she's the first ever

1210
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 2: conjurer to attend, and that means that she is the

1211
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 2: target for people who don't trust her, who are suspicious

1212
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:04,240
Speaker 2: of it. And it is this kind of it's so

1213
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 2: magical and it gives you that feeling of walking through

1214
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 2: the halls, those magical, cozy feelings you want. But it's

1215
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:15,160
Speaker 2: also a book that deals with racial integration, it deals

1216
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:18,639
Speaker 2: with generational trauma. But all the while is it feels

1217
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 2: like this huge moment for fantasy. Kids from all around

1218
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:26,759
Speaker 2: the world study at these schools. You know, there's different

1219
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 2: notions of what it is to be magical and to

1220
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:34,639
Speaker 2: be from a different place that feels just miles away

1221
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:37,320
Speaker 2: from the stereotypes of old And I think it could

1222
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 2: be a big moment for people like us who love

1223
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:42,920
Speaker 2: these books, and hopefully for kids who love these books.

1224
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 2: I feel like The Marvelers could be that.

1225
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:47,840
Speaker 1: Book out May third really excited for that. Up next

1226
01:08:47,880 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 1: to our discussion with the author Nicola Griffith. Welcome to

1227
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 1: the Hive Mind, where we explore topic and more detail

1228
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:06,400
Speaker 1: with the help of expert guests. This week we're absolutely

1229
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 1: thrilled to have Nicola Griffith, the award winning author of

1230
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 1: So Lucky, Hilled, the Odd, and other books, and of

1231
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 1: course the upcoming novel Spear, which is available April nineteenth.

1232
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:17,760
Speaker 2: Hella, Nikola, thank you so much.

1233
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:20,640
Speaker 3: Hi, it's great to be here.

1234
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:23,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us and taking

1235
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,919
Speaker 2: the time. We're both really big fans of your stories

1236
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 2: and we're so stoked to talk to you. Something that

1237
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:32,519
Speaker 2: we often do when we talk to people on here

1238
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:36,280
Speaker 2: is like, what was your origin story with fantasy, with

1239
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 2: sci fi, with kind of stories that made you want

1240
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 2: to write stories?

1241
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 3: Wow, That's a bit like saying, why are you who

1242
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:54,560
Speaker 3: you are? Panic? Okay. Basically, my first introduction to story was,

1243
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:57,880
Speaker 3: like I'm guessing, like most people, my mum telling me

1244
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 3: stories at bedtime, and she would make up stories and

1245
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:05,839
Speaker 3: then she would read me kids' books, that is, kids'

1246
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 3: versions of myths, Greek myths and legends, and so my

1247
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:15,439
Speaker 3: first introduction to story was obviously all made up. I

1248
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:21,639
Speaker 3: think most kids they like things that are completely not real. Yeah,

1249
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 3: but they can't really tell me. Everything is new to

1250
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:29,519
Speaker 3: a child, right, you're three. You've never seen a bunny before,

1251
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:33,679
Speaker 3: so you don't know a bunny can't talk, so talking rabbit,

1252
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 3: it's like, that's perfectly normal. But I never is some

1253
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 3: part of me. I don't think I ever let go

1254
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:44,240
Speaker 3: of that. I feel that way also about nature. I

1255
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:47,599
Speaker 3: felt the same kind of thrill going for a walk

1256
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 3: under the trees that I do getting lost in a story.

1257
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:55,479
Speaker 3: It's the same kind of journey for me. It's a

1258
01:10:55,600 --> 01:11:00,759
Speaker 3: getting lost, finding my own way and discovering things about

1259
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 3: me in this other place, whether it's a story or

1260
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 3: an actual geographic location. And to me, story writing stories

1261
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:14,400
Speaker 3: is really the very best way to capture both those things,

1262
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:17,599
Speaker 3: and I think it's probably why almost everything I write

1263
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:20,519
Speaker 3: has a lot of nature in it. I hope that

1264
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:23,760
Speaker 3: makes sense. I hope I'm answering the question because I.

1265
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 2: Love that and that it was like listening to a

1266
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 2: wonderful story. We're both just, like.

1267
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:32,920
Speaker 1: Nikola, a big fan of your stories, as Rosie said,

1268
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:37,439
Speaker 1: particularly Ammonite, which is your first novel. I believe about

1269
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:40,880
Speaker 1: it's sci fi colony, a sci fi story about all

1270
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:46,080
Speaker 1: women's colony in Space and Hild, which I found randomly

1271
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:49,479
Speaker 1: in a bookstore under one of the you know, the

1272
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:53,120
Speaker 1: suggestions from the from the workers at the bookstore, and

1273
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:55,280
Speaker 1: I just happened to pick it up and I loved it.

1274
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:57,479
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I love about

1275
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:02,799
Speaker 1: your writing is how how you bring the reader into

1276
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:07,320
Speaker 1: the way characters notice things, in particular the way characters

1277
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:12,880
Speaker 1: who aren't close to power are in power notice things

1278
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:18,240
Speaker 1: that the people in power don't. I think in particular,

1279
01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:23,040
Speaker 1: there's a scene in Hild where where hilled Is has

1280
01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:27,479
Speaker 1: noticed that Edwin, the king is nervous about something is

1281
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:30,720
Speaker 1: having a lot of meetings, but she can't quite unpack what.

1282
01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 1: And then she asks one of his guesses, guesses, one

1283
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:37,200
Speaker 1: of his warrior companions, so what's going on in the meetings?

1284
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:39,599
Speaker 1: And the warrior companion is like, I don't know, it's

1285
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 1: boring old men talking about stuff. So she's like, okay,

1286
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:44,680
Speaker 1: let me get this guy some food, men off and

1287
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:47,799
Speaker 1: open up when they when they're when they're not hungry anymore,

1288
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:49,840
Speaker 1: and then she just talks to him about different things

1289
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:52,519
Speaker 1: that perhaps he's noticed, and then she's able to kind

1290
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:56,160
Speaker 1: of through this unwind what it is that is gnawing

1291
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:59,080
Speaker 1: at the king, and then she's able to in a

1292
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 1: in a very power powerful way, use that information in

1293
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:06,080
Speaker 1: a way that's a little manipulative but also is very

1294
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:08,120
Speaker 1: smart in the way that she's getting the thing that

1295
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:11,200
Speaker 1: she wants, but also getting the king the thing that

1296
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 1: he wants. How much do you think about that when

1297
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:17,400
Speaker 1: you're when you're writing It's it's just something I love

1298
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:19,000
Speaker 1: about the way you write.

1299
01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 3: Most of those scenes. I remember that particular scene very

1300
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 3: well because I remember thinking, Okay, she needs to get

1301
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:27,840
Speaker 3: him something to eat, Like, what the fuck did they eat?

1302
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:33,800
Speaker 3: Then I had to okay, right, hair, they ate hairs, right,

1303
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:36,760
Speaker 3: let's look pie and hair and but so yes, I

1304
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:39,360
Speaker 3: do remember that scene really well. And she was very young,

1305
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:44,360
Speaker 3: as I fool, so I was discovering it kind of

1306
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:48,000
Speaker 3: with Hilt. I knew she needed a moment where she

1307
01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:53,280
Speaker 3: had to bring everything she had learnt together in this one,

1308
01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:58,720
Speaker 3: like she had to behave like a seer, as though

1309
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:02,639
Speaker 3: she had magic, but of course she doesn't, because it's

1310
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:05,000
Speaker 3: not a fantasy booky, even though it reads a bit

1311
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:09,280
Speaker 3: like that, she had to make other people think that

1312
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:14,519
Speaker 3: she was magic, and she had this prophetic gift. And

1313
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:18,280
Speaker 3: so before I wrote that scene, did I know exactly

1314
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 3: how she was going to do that? No, I really

1315
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:25,040
Speaker 3: had no clue. I just had a feeling. I just

1316
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:29,000
Speaker 3: knew what the place felt like and how she felt,

1317
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:32,080
Speaker 3: and what it might be like to be surrounded by

1318
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:36,360
Speaker 3: all these yesses with swords and spears and she's got

1319
01:14:36,439 --> 01:14:38,640
Speaker 3: nothing except well, now by this time she has her

1320
01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:43,920
Speaker 3: little sex. Actually not that little bit. So I suppose

1321
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:48,920
Speaker 3: it's a bit like saying, how where does inspiration come from?

1322
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:51,000
Speaker 3: I don't really know. It comes from a lot of

1323
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:55,400
Speaker 3: work and putting clues together. Basically, you're seeing in this

1324
01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:59,560
Speaker 3: book through hilld my process as a writer, which is

1325
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:07,120
Speaker 3: part serendipity, part smart, part research, and part just trusting

1326
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:10,680
Speaker 3: that it will be there when you step off the

1327
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:14,760
Speaker 3: edge that you're building your bridge. As you walk, there's

1328
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:16,920
Speaker 3: this chasm and you're heading towards it, and you just

1329
01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:20,559
Speaker 3: have to have faith that there'll be something there when

1330
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 3: you get there.

1331
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:24,000
Speaker 2: That's really interesting and it kind of that kind of

1332
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:26,439
Speaker 2: talk speaks to one of the things I really wanted

1333
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:30,040
Speaker 2: to know, how did you kind of discover Hill? Because

1334
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:32,640
Speaker 2: I'm from England, I've been to Whitby a lot. I

1335
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:35,360
Speaker 2: was a goth when I was a teenager. I loved Dracula.

1336
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:36,160
Speaker 4: It was really.

1337
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:40,200
Speaker 2: Important place to me. But I'd never heard of I'd

1338
01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 2: never heard of hilld I'd never heard of this story.

1339
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:45,880
Speaker 2: How did you discover her? And then what made you

1340
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:48,720
Speaker 2: want to tell the story of hild and bring it

1341
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:49,879
Speaker 2: to a wider audience.

1342
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:54,120
Speaker 3: I discovered her the day I discovered Whitby. I'd been

1343
01:15:54,600 --> 01:15:57,280
Speaker 3: living in Hull. I don't know if you ever spent

1344
01:15:57,400 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 3: any time in Hull, very depressed, quite depressing city in

1345
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 3: the northeast of England, where at the time when I

1346
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 3: was living the unemployment rate was twenty five percent. Wow.

1347
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:12,200
Speaker 3: And it literally smelled because the drains were all falling.

1348
01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:14,599
Speaker 3: I mean, it was just a terrible place to live.

1349
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:16,680
Speaker 3: And I'd been having a bit of a hard time.

1350
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:20,639
Speaker 3: So one weekend I escaped and went up the coast

1351
01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:25,879
Speaker 3: and went to Whitby. And I'd heard obviously, I'd read Dracula,

1352
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 3: I'd heard of Whitby, so I was expecting all the steps.

1353
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:33,360
Speaker 3: I was expecting the abbey. What I really was not

1354
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:36,759
Speaker 3: expecting was what happened when I got to the abbey,

1355
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:41,639
Speaker 3: which is back in the day. It's changed now there's

1356
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:44,400
Speaker 3: much more control about who can go in, But back

1357
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:47,680
Speaker 3: in the day you just kind of walked through it

1358
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:51,519
Speaker 3: and there was this stone threshold and I remember crossing

1359
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:56,879
Speaker 3: that threshold and it was like history just came fisting

1360
01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:00,960
Speaker 3: up through me, and I was just it just turned

1361
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:05,160
Speaker 3: me inside out like a sock. Suddenly. It's like, I

1362
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:08,400
Speaker 3: don't know, if you're familiar with there's a kind of

1363
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:12,760
Speaker 3: New Age theory that some parts of the earth that

1364
01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:17,439
Speaker 3: the layer between the world and the other world is

1365
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:21,560
Speaker 3: very thin. I think Whitby is if you buy into that,

1366
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:26,679
Speaker 3: is one of those thin places. There's a real sense

1367
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 3: of imminence and otherness there. And so I just walked

1368
01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 3: into it and it was like it was like sticking

1369
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:38,360
Speaker 3: my head into a perfectly ordinary wardrobe and finding I

1370
01:17:38,479 --> 01:17:42,280
Speaker 3: was in Narnia. It was just I was blown away,

1371
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:46,560
Speaker 3: and so I had to I had to know what

1372
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:50,080
Speaker 3: is this place? Who built this place, where does it

1373
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:53,800
Speaker 3: come from, why here, what's it about? What does it mean?

1374
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:57,360
Speaker 3: And so I went to the little tourist place attached

1375
01:17:57,439 --> 01:18:00,920
Speaker 3: to the abbey, which is much bigger now amazing, but

1376
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:03,920
Speaker 3: then it was just like a tatty little place next door,

1377
01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:07,360
Speaker 3: and they had a few little brochures, and I read

1378
01:18:07,479 --> 01:18:10,760
Speaker 3: that the abbey had been founded fourteen hundred years ago

1379
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:13,080
Speaker 3: by this woman called Hill, And I knew a bit

1380
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:16,120
Speaker 3: about history at this point, and I thought, well, fourteen

1381
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:21,080
Speaker 3: hundred years ago, that was the quote Dark Ages. So

1382
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:25,840
Speaker 3: how come a woman in the Dark Ages, when Mike

1383
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:30,680
Speaker 3: was right and women supposedly were just chattel and had

1384
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:35,719
Speaker 3: no power, how could she possibly have created this amazing

1385
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:40,879
Speaker 3: place and done such things and still be known today,

1386
01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:46,240
Speaker 3: well partially known today. And so I went to try

1387
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:48,760
Speaker 3: to find a book about her, and there wasn't a

1388
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:55,040
Speaker 3: book about her. There's no scholarly monograph, there's no TV series,

1389
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:59,559
Speaker 3: there's no cartoon, there's not even a racy romance novel.

1390
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 3: There was nothing, ringing silence. The only thing I could

1391
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:11,280
Speaker 3: find was Venerable Beads, History of the English Church and People,

1392
01:19:12,240 --> 01:19:16,240
Speaker 3: and that has less than five pages about her, and

1393
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:23,160
Speaker 3: most of that is really typical Saints stories that could

1394
01:19:23,160 --> 01:19:26,600
Speaker 3: apply to anybody, so that it's not real information. And

1395
01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:30,280
Speaker 3: there was there was no information. So now by this

1396
01:19:30,400 --> 01:19:35,880
Speaker 3: time I'm on fire with curiosity. So I researched that

1397
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:40,439
Speaker 3: book on and off for I would say, fifteen years,

1398
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:43,880
Speaker 3: because I went to Whitby in the eighties and it

1399
01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 3: was in the back of my mind all that time.

1400
01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:50,120
Speaker 3: And then gradually, sometime in the nineties, I started picking

1401
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:54,920
Speaker 3: up history books and actually reading and working my way

1402
01:19:55,080 --> 01:20:00,240
Speaker 3: back through notions of history. So I started with old

1403
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:04,240
Speaker 3: fashioned mid twentieth century history, and by the time I'd

1404
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:08,040
Speaker 3: finished researching, although toupy Frank, I'm still not finished researching.

1405
01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:09,720
Speaker 3: I'm going to be researching this for the rest of

1406
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:12,639
Speaker 3: my life. By the time I got to the point

1407
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:14,479
Speaker 3: where I was ready to write the book, shall I say,

1408
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:18,519
Speaker 3: the first book, I was talking to the people doing

1409
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:22,320
Speaker 3: the research before it was published in two thousand and eight,

1410
01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:27,320
Speaker 3: early career researchers. They were discovering blogs and so you

1411
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:31,200
Speaker 3: could you could just go online and find these people

1412
01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:33,600
Speaker 3: and what they were doing and talk to them in

1413
01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:37,320
Speaker 3: the comments. And they didn't know who I was. They

1414
01:20:37,400 --> 01:20:40,760
Speaker 3: didn't know whether I was amazingly famous or nobody or

1415
01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:43,840
Speaker 3: a lunatic, and so they were very cautious at first,

1416
01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:48,240
Speaker 3: so I would have to elicit information from them. They

1417
01:20:48,439 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 3: didn't like risking stuff. They didn't like to say something

1418
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:55,519
Speaker 3: unless they could give you ten footnotes, and so I

1419
01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:58,519
Speaker 3: remember one time I was trying to find out what

1420
01:20:59,240 --> 01:21:05,280
Speaker 3: the Anglos Saxon's thought about dogs, what was their attitude

1421
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:08,479
Speaker 3: to dogs, and there was like, we know nothing about dogs.

1422
01:21:09,040 --> 01:21:13,920
Speaker 3: I said, okay, so if Hill had a Pekinese, and

1423
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:16,439
Speaker 3: they're like, she wouldn't have had a Pekinese, that's just no.

1424
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:19,320
Speaker 3: And I said, well there, you see, you do know something.

1425
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:24,760
Speaker 3: So what kind of dog might she have had? So

1426
01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:28,080
Speaker 3: and then we went from there. But oh, it was

1427
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:31,719
Speaker 3: like blood from a stone at first, getting this information

1428
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:35,200
Speaker 3: from these people. So anyway, that's how it began, that's

1429
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:39,280
Speaker 3: how I really needed to do it. And like I say,

1430
01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:44,720
Speaker 3: there was just no information. So I researched everything. I

1431
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:52,160
Speaker 3: researched flora and fauna and building techniques and textile production

1432
01:21:52,320 --> 01:21:57,439
Speaker 3: and agriculture and the weather. Everything. Everything was different then.

1433
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:02,559
Speaker 3: And I decided I was just build the seventh century.

1434
01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:06,000
Speaker 3: I was going to build the whole goddamn century, and

1435
01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:08,840
Speaker 3: then I was going to put Hilp in it and

1436
01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:11,519
Speaker 3: see how she behaved, what happened, How on earth she

1437
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:15,000
Speaker 3: could have done this? And the only way to do

1438
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:20,200
Speaker 3: that was by making her a child so I could

1439
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:25,000
Speaker 3: discover along with her. But that that wasn't a deliberate choice.

1440
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:28,439
Speaker 3: What happened was I got basically got drunk one day

1441
01:22:30,320 --> 01:22:32,680
Speaker 3: and I thought, oh, you know, screw this, It's my

1442
01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:36,320
Speaker 3: birthday tomorrow. I cannot go another year without starting this

1443
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:40,840
Speaker 3: goddamn book. I thought, right, I'm going to start, and

1444
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:42,519
Speaker 3: I had no idea what's going to just I'm going

1445
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:46,120
Speaker 3: to write a paragraph, and so I began and there

1446
01:22:46,240 --> 01:22:49,880
Speaker 3: she was. She was, this three year old girl under

1447
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:56,320
Speaker 3: a tree, and I thought, holy shit, that that's the

1448
01:22:56,439 --> 01:22:59,240
Speaker 3: key to everything. And then I was off. So, yeah,

1449
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:04,400
Speaker 3: a mix of hard work, guessing, and alcohol, I suppose

1450
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:06,200
Speaker 3: how I did that.

1451
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:11,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds as if, and guessing from from the

1452
01:23:12,160 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 1: content of your other works, that this that the process

1453
01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:21,320
Speaker 1: of creating Hilt was very different than than what you've

1454
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:25,000
Speaker 1: done previously or even since, with some of your more

1455
01:23:25,040 --> 01:23:28,479
Speaker 1: personal kind of works in different genres. Would you say

1456
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:29,679
Speaker 1: that is that the case?

1457
01:23:30,080 --> 01:23:35,160
Speaker 3: They're all different, and yet they're all the same. I

1458
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:39,439
Speaker 3: rarely write a book without some part of it having

1459
01:23:40,240 --> 01:23:44,000
Speaker 3: grown in my writer's brain, in my back brain, some

1460
01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:46,639
Speaker 3: little factoid that's stuck to another one and is sort

1461
01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:49,720
Speaker 3: of mutating in there, And then a few years later,

1462
01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:54,840
Speaker 3: this this thing springs out full blown. So in that sense,

1463
01:23:54,920 --> 01:24:00,720
Speaker 3: the process is the same. But almost every single thing

1464
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:06,680
Speaker 3: I write is trying to answer a question, so so Emmonite.

1465
01:24:06,800 --> 01:24:09,880
Speaker 3: For example, my first book, the question I was trying

1466
01:24:09,960 --> 01:24:13,639
Speaker 3: to ask, trying to answer, was a question I saw

1467
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:18,080
Speaker 3: being asked all the time in science fiction and not

1468
01:24:18,479 --> 01:24:23,120
Speaker 3: answered satisfactorily, not giving me the answer I wanted, which is, basically,

1469
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:28,840
Speaker 3: are women human? I mean, because most science fiction books,

1470
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:32,600
Speaker 3: if you had a world only of women, they behaved

1471
01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:37,719
Speaker 3: like half a thing, they didn't behave like whole human beings.

1472
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:40,720
Speaker 3: And I thought, you know, no, I don't buy that

1473
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:43,479
Speaker 3: answer at all, So I'm going to have to figure

1474
01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:46,439
Speaker 3: this out. So I wrote EMM and I basically to

1475
01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:49,840
Speaker 3: answer that question slower ever, came from a different kind

1476
01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:53,960
Speaker 3: of question, a much more personal question actually about who

1477
01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:57,200
Speaker 3: are you when you have nothing left? Is there such

1478
01:24:57,200 --> 01:25:02,519
Speaker 3: a thing as an essential self? And then the three

1479
01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:07,800
Speaker 3: out books those came from a dream. I had this

1480
01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:14,240
Speaker 3: dream that there was this woman, completely naked, sprawled on

1481
01:25:14,400 --> 01:25:18,920
Speaker 3: the carpet of an absolutely empty apartment, but sprawled in

1482
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:22,120
Speaker 3: a really you know, like a lion on the velt,

1483
01:25:22,479 --> 01:25:28,720
Speaker 3: actually not afraid of anything, sprawled and it was absolutely

1484
01:25:28,800 --> 01:25:31,439
Speaker 3: empty apartment. I mean there weren't even light fixtures, it

1485
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:34,719
Speaker 3: was that empty. And I was thinking, well, that's odd

1486
01:25:34,880 --> 01:25:37,200
Speaker 3: in my dream. And then the next thing I know,

1487
01:25:37,400 --> 01:25:41,680
Speaker 3: this woman wakes, is woken up by a gun to

1488
01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:46,479
Speaker 3: her head, and instead of going or freaking out even

1489
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:51,840
Speaker 3: she just sits right up with a big flashlight and

1490
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:55,680
Speaker 3: breaks the guy's neck boom like that, split second, no hesitation,

1491
01:25:56,360 --> 01:26:02,320
Speaker 3: and I going, whoa, well, who was who's that?

1492
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:04,640
Speaker 2: And how come she.

1493
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:08,320
Speaker 3: Could do that? What would make it possible? What kind

1494
01:26:08,360 --> 01:26:12,320
Speaker 3: of person could do that? And so the three out

1495
01:26:12,400 --> 01:26:15,920
Speaker 3: books were all about answering that question. How she got

1496
01:26:16,000 --> 01:26:20,360
Speaker 3: to be that person in that place at that time. So, yeah,

1497
01:26:20,400 --> 01:26:22,880
Speaker 3: it's always a question. Hill was like, how did this

1498
01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:25,920
Speaker 3: abby be like this? How could he'll do what she did?

1499
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:31,400
Speaker 3: I think. I think the only book I've ever written

1500
01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:35,719
Speaker 3: that is not about answering a question but more about

1501
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:39,519
Speaker 3: just getting stuff out because it needed to be out

1502
01:26:40,479 --> 01:26:44,400
Speaker 3: was So Lucky, my book about the woman diagnosed with

1503
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:44,840
Speaker 3: their mess.

1504
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:46,200
Speaker 1: And it's not.

1505
01:26:46,520 --> 01:26:50,200
Speaker 3: Autobiographical in the sense the character is not really very

1506
01:26:50,320 --> 01:26:53,120
Speaker 3: much like me, although I did give her an English

1507
01:26:53,200 --> 01:26:54,960
Speaker 3: accent because I was going to be doing the audio

1508
01:26:55,080 --> 01:27:01,360
Speaker 3: narration and I just couldn't. Actually in that sense, she's likely.

1509
01:27:01,800 --> 01:27:04,960
Speaker 3: But that book has always made me slightly uncomfortable because

1510
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:08,960
Speaker 3: it's not my usual thing. And also it doesn't do

1511
01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:12,080
Speaker 3: what every other book I've ever done does, which is

1512
01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:17,679
Speaker 3: to basically center what most people would consider the other

1513
01:27:18,320 --> 01:27:21,840
Speaker 3: because in So Lucky, it's the only book about the

1514
01:27:21,960 --> 01:27:25,560
Speaker 3: difference of the character about her being disabled. Or my

1515
01:27:25,640 --> 01:27:28,559
Speaker 3: other books, you've got disabled people, you've got queer people,

1516
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:35,200
Speaker 3: you've got women, et cetera, and it doesn't matter, it

1517
01:27:35,600 --> 01:27:38,240
Speaker 3: doesn't make any difference to the character them. It's all

1518
01:27:38,280 --> 01:27:42,200
Speaker 3: her blue eyes rather than green eyes. It's a nothing,

1519
01:27:43,080 --> 01:27:46,080
Speaker 3: Whereas So Lucky was very much that the difference was

1520
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:46,759
Speaker 3: a something.

1521
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:50,479
Speaker 2: It was the thing with Spear, you kind of you

1522
01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:53,720
Speaker 2: definitely continue that former version, which is every kind of

1523
01:27:53,880 --> 01:27:56,880
Speaker 2: character and involved in a kind of this, in this

1524
01:27:57,040 --> 01:28:00,120
Speaker 2: case an epic kind of reimagining of Arthurian law. So

1525
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:04,720
Speaker 2: what's what's that question that Spear is answering?

1526
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:14,240
Speaker 3: How do I retake Camelot for real people? Because the

1527
01:28:14,439 --> 01:28:18,880
Speaker 3: matter of Britain, the whole Arthurian cycle, it's essentially a

1528
01:28:19,040 --> 01:28:25,800
Speaker 3: national origin story, and so it's got this nativist, supremacist

1529
01:28:26,800 --> 01:28:33,000
Speaker 3: manifest destiny creme baked in and and I thought, you know,

1530
01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:37,800
Speaker 3: I love that legend. I love this notion of Camelot.

1531
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:40,560
Speaker 3: I don't I don't care about it being a specific

1532
01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:44,840
Speaker 3: time or a specific place for me. Camelot's all about

1533
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:48,960
Speaker 3: the dream mm hmm. It's about the the fight for

1534
01:28:50,040 --> 01:28:54,680
Speaker 3: justice and equity. And so I needed to find a

1535
01:28:54,800 --> 01:28:59,880
Speaker 3: way to write that but still make it our theory.

1536
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:04,479
Speaker 3: And so that's how I did Spirit. That's why I

1537
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:07,280
Speaker 3: wrote Spear, and also because it seemed like a really

1538
01:29:07,400 --> 01:29:13,840
Speaker 3: nifty idea. Honestly, to be honest, I really thought it

1539
01:29:13,960 --> 01:29:16,800
Speaker 3: was going to be a short story. I thought it

1540
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:19,879
Speaker 3: would take me two weeks. I set the Hill sequel aside.

1541
01:29:20,160 --> 01:29:21,840
Speaker 3: I thought, okay, I'll get this done in two weeks,

1542
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:26,000
Speaker 3: get back to Meanwood, and this thing just rowed out.

1543
01:29:26,439 --> 01:29:30,360
Speaker 3: I mean it just I can't tell you. After I

1544
01:29:30,479 --> 01:29:33,320
Speaker 3: wrote Spear and then I went back to Memewood, I

1545
01:29:33,760 --> 01:29:37,000
Speaker 3: wrote more in the first year of the pandemic in

1546
01:29:37,160 --> 01:29:40,439
Speaker 3: one year than I have ever written. I wrote two

1547
01:29:40,560 --> 01:29:44,920
Speaker 3: hundred thousand words. Wow, I think they were all good words.

1548
01:29:45,080 --> 01:29:48,479
Speaker 3: I wrote Spear, and I wrote a lot of Meme.

1549
01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:52,920
Speaker 3: I finished Meanwood, which is a very large book, and

1550
01:29:53,040 --> 01:29:57,200
Speaker 3: I just it just I was just really fired up.

1551
01:29:57,320 --> 01:30:00,920
Speaker 3: And the pandemic meant that I didn't have to stop

1552
01:30:01,240 --> 01:30:03,679
Speaker 3: to do things like even go to the doctor because

1553
01:30:03,720 --> 01:30:05,280
Speaker 3: no one was going to that. I didn't have to

1554
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:07,519
Speaker 3: go out for dinner with anyone. I didn't have to

1555
01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:10,559
Speaker 3: go to conferences. I just got to stay at home

1556
01:30:10,640 --> 01:30:16,240
Speaker 3: and live in this early medieval world and it was wonderful. So, yeah,

1557
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:19,160
Speaker 3: Spear was a confluence of all the things I love,

1558
01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:22,680
Speaker 3: all the things I love about Hilt, but also then

1559
01:30:23,439 --> 01:30:28,559
Speaker 3: completely free a lot of Hilt's exterior stresses. I mean,

1560
01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:32,679
Speaker 3: Parite is not. She doesn't have to worry about taking

1561
01:30:32,840 --> 01:30:38,599
Speaker 3: care of anybody. Really, She's young and free and makes

1562
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:41,360
Speaker 3: the most of it. And I loved that. It felt

1563
01:30:41,439 --> 01:30:41,880
Speaker 3: really good.

1564
01:30:42,320 --> 01:30:45,160
Speaker 1: You wrote a New York Times up ed in twenty

1565
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:50,000
Speaker 1: eighteen about your role as a queer writer with disabilities

1566
01:30:50,760 --> 01:30:53,760
Speaker 1: and how that influences your work and how important it

1567
01:30:53,880 --> 01:30:57,439
Speaker 1: is to be a representative for other people in the

1568
01:30:57,479 --> 01:31:02,280
Speaker 1: space who are looking for stories. Has anything changed since.

1569
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:07,080
Speaker 3: That time, Oh, it's been amazing. Yeah, it is changing

1570
01:31:07,280 --> 01:31:12,080
Speaker 3: a lot. I'm really I'm thrilled. Actually, I've seen just

1571
01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:15,680
Speaker 3: I would say in the last five years and absolute

1572
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:24,840
Speaker 3: explosion of disability literature. It's incredible, particularly in first of all,

1573
01:31:24,920 --> 01:31:31,479
Speaker 3: in the YA space, lots of YA cripplet, and now

1574
01:31:33,800 --> 01:31:38,240
Speaker 3: in the science fiction and fantasy space, there's an awful

1575
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:43,719
Speaker 3: lot of literature about disabled characters with disabled characters. Should

1576
01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:49,080
Speaker 3: I say so, it's incredible. I'm still seeing a lot

1577
01:31:49,120 --> 01:31:56,479
Speaker 3: of resistance in more mainstream literary presses. What they want

1578
01:31:56,560 --> 01:31:59,280
Speaker 3: if you're disabled and you've got a disabled character, they

1579
01:31:59,400 --> 01:32:02,680
Speaker 3: want the book to be about the character's disability struggles.

1580
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:06,640
Speaker 3: They don't want to just see them going whoo, you know,

1581
01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:11,080
Speaker 3: and whacking someone's head off with the sword. No, they

1582
01:32:11,160 --> 01:32:16,040
Speaker 3: want they want authenticity and their notion. Because they are

1583
01:32:16,479 --> 01:32:21,880
Speaker 3: ableists and most of us are honestly ablest, they think

1584
01:32:22,000 --> 01:32:23,879
Speaker 3: that the authentic experience is suffering.

1585
01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:24,280
Speaker 1: You know.

1586
01:32:24,280 --> 01:32:29,960
Speaker 3: I've seen the same thing with literature, especially memoir from

1587
01:32:30,400 --> 01:32:35,080
Speaker 3: immigrants and refugees, that all people want is their trauma story.

1588
01:32:35,479 --> 01:32:38,280
Speaker 3: Give us your drama. They don't want to know about

1589
01:32:38,320 --> 01:32:42,000
Speaker 3: the success and the joy and any of that stuff.

1590
01:32:42,439 --> 01:32:46,559
Speaker 3: So I'm still seeing that resistance, and also I'm seeing

1591
01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:49,880
Speaker 3: I would like to see more changes. Should I put

1592
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:56,240
Speaker 3: it in criticism, I would rather see more people with

1593
01:32:56,479 --> 01:33:04,000
Speaker 3: disabilities reviewing fiction with disabled characters as opposed to non

1594
01:33:04,080 --> 01:33:08,280
Speaker 3: disabled people. I mean, I get so tired of seeing

1595
01:33:08,360 --> 01:33:13,680
Speaker 3: these books by non disabled people about disabled characters who

1596
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:18,640
Speaker 3: kill themselves yep, and calling it wonderful and authentic. And

1597
01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:22,880
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, ah, well, I shouldn't say what I'm thinking.

1598
01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:28,519
Speaker 3: It's unprinciple. I would have to be considerably bleaped. But

1599
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:30,719
Speaker 3: I'm not happy. I mean, I remember having a conversation

1600
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:34,280
Speaker 3: with a writer who'd been sent one of these books

1601
01:33:34,840 --> 01:33:39,040
Speaker 3: to review, I think for the Washington Post, might be

1602
01:33:39,080 --> 01:33:41,160
Speaker 3: in the New York Times. She's like, I'm having a

1603
01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:43,400
Speaker 3: really hard time with it. So we talked about it,

1604
01:33:43,479 --> 01:33:46,760
Speaker 3: and I said, you need to say it. You need

1605
01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:51,439
Speaker 3: to say why it's wrong, why it's bad. And that

1606
01:33:51,720 --> 01:33:57,599
Speaker 3: was very difficult for her because her stance to reviewing

1607
01:33:57,920 --> 01:34:01,360
Speaker 3: is always lift up the writer. And I said this,

1608
01:34:01,680 --> 01:34:04,040
Speaker 3: you cannot lift her up for this, lift her up

1609
01:34:04,080 --> 01:34:08,559
Speaker 3: for every single thing in the book. Accept this. Yeah,

1610
01:34:08,760 --> 01:34:11,560
Speaker 3: and she did, and I was so pleased. So I

1611
01:34:11,680 --> 01:34:14,559
Speaker 3: was really grateful and glad. But that's what we need.

1612
01:34:14,640 --> 01:34:15,400
Speaker 3: We need more of that.

1613
01:34:15,800 --> 01:34:19,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, it's actually really shocking. I'm disabled, and

1614
01:34:19,400 --> 01:34:24,000
Speaker 2: that same trope of the honorable sacrifice. There was a

1615
01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:26,880
Speaker 2: YA book when I was a young kid, and I

1616
01:34:26,960 --> 01:34:30,679
Speaker 2: had a lot of community within the disability activism movement,

1617
01:34:30,920 --> 01:34:33,719
Speaker 2: but there was a book that would be given around

1618
01:34:34,360 --> 01:34:36,439
Speaker 2: and it was a YA book written by a man

1619
01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:38,840
Speaker 2: who had a son who had cerebral palsy. And at

1620
01:34:38,880 --> 01:34:42,600
Speaker 2: the end that the son gets set on fire and

1621
01:34:42,720 --> 01:34:46,040
Speaker 2: he dies, and the book is told from his perspective,

1622
01:34:46,320 --> 01:34:49,280
Speaker 2: and the perspective is he is glad that he's dying

1623
01:34:49,320 --> 01:34:51,680
Speaker 2: because it will be like good for his family. And

1624
01:34:51,760 --> 01:34:54,960
Speaker 2: that was a book that they legitimately gave to disabled kids,

1625
01:34:55,040 --> 01:34:57,400
Speaker 2: to people I know who had cerebral palsy like and

1626
01:34:57,520 --> 01:35:00,040
Speaker 2: that is still going on twenty years later, and and

1627
01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:01,240
Speaker 2: it kind of blows my mind.

1628
01:35:01,960 --> 01:35:05,360
Speaker 3: Look how long it took for queer lit to change

1629
01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:10,240
Speaker 3: from the lesbian giving it up so her bisexual clirll

1630
01:35:10,320 --> 01:35:13,240
Speaker 3: friend could have a normal life. I mean, really, that

1631
01:35:13,360 --> 01:35:17,120
Speaker 3: went on for eighty years. So in this sense, I

1632
01:35:17,160 --> 01:35:21,880
Speaker 3: think Cripplet is doing relatively well. It has a long

1633
01:35:21,920 --> 01:35:24,960
Speaker 3: way to go, but it's following many of the same

1634
01:35:26,800 --> 01:35:30,960
Speaker 3: paths I think. Has queer lit died. Yeah, So there

1635
01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:34,280
Speaker 3: is hope. There's hope it's coming. I just wish it

1636
01:35:34,280 --> 01:35:36,519
Speaker 3: would hurry up and get here a bit quicker.

1637
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:40,800
Speaker 1: What are you reading now? What if for our listeners

1638
01:35:41,120 --> 01:35:44,600
Speaker 1: maybe thinking, oh, that sounds I've been waiting for a

1639
01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:46,880
Speaker 1: story like this. This is something I'd like to read.

1640
01:35:47,439 --> 01:35:50,080
Speaker 3: Well right now, I haven't been reading a lot of stories.

1641
01:35:50,320 --> 01:35:53,720
Speaker 3: Let me see, I've been reading a lot of nonfiction

1642
01:35:54,240 --> 01:36:04,920
Speaker 3: about small, tedious things in early medieval times. I love

1643
01:36:05,000 --> 01:36:09,040
Speaker 3: to hear it because I know, well, for example, I mean,

1644
01:36:09,080 --> 01:36:13,519
Speaker 3: this is actually more about Spear than Hilp. But I

1645
01:36:13,800 --> 01:36:16,599
Speaker 3: just read a really good book, and it's from two

1646
01:36:16,640 --> 01:36:21,320
Speaker 3: thousand and eight, all about our fury and literature and

1647
01:36:21,640 --> 01:36:25,439
Speaker 3: all the tropes that have been used, and how it's so.

1648
01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:27,800
Speaker 3: It's there's a whole set of different articles, so each

1649
01:36:27,960 --> 01:36:31,840
Speaker 3: article takes a different stance, but it's fascinating to see

1650
01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:37,400
Speaker 3: how much really serious scholarship has gone into the whole

1651
01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:41,479
Speaker 3: are a legend? I really wish I'm actually I say,

1652
01:36:41,479 --> 01:36:45,040
Speaker 3: I'm really glad I hadn't read that book before I

1653
01:36:45,120 --> 01:36:48,360
Speaker 3: wrote Spear, Otherwise I might say, well, were you not

1654
01:36:48,560 --> 01:36:51,719
Speaker 3: taking it? But let me see what have I read

1655
01:36:52,800 --> 01:36:57,320
Speaker 3: in the particularly the queer and fantasy space in the

1656
01:36:57,439 --> 01:37:02,400
Speaker 3: last year or two. It's I read Alex Harrow for

1657
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:06,599
Speaker 3: the first time last year, so I read her novella

1658
01:37:07,479 --> 01:37:10,599
Speaker 3: A Spindle Splintered, and she's got a new one coming out,

1659
01:37:10,640 --> 01:37:14,599
Speaker 3: I think in a couple of months, called The Mirror Mended,

1660
01:37:14,920 --> 01:37:19,880
Speaker 3: and that it's really great. It is another kind of retelling,

1661
01:37:20,080 --> 01:37:21,599
Speaker 3: and so I want to get back to this notion

1662
01:37:21,680 --> 01:37:25,719
Speaker 3: of retelling in a minute. Also Samantha Shannon, who wrote

1663
01:37:26,160 --> 01:37:29,040
Speaker 3: The Priory of the Orange Tree. Yes, I'm drawing a

1664
01:37:29,080 --> 01:37:30,760
Speaker 3: bit of a blank. What I tend to do when

1665
01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:35,400
Speaker 3: I'm in writing mode is I read nonfiction and then

1666
01:37:35,439 --> 01:37:40,240
Speaker 3: I reread old favorites and poetry. I read poets. So

1667
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:44,640
Speaker 3: I've basically subscribed to Poetry Magazine and just read that

1668
01:37:44,840 --> 01:37:47,080
Speaker 3: every month, you know, I read a couple of those

1669
01:37:47,120 --> 01:37:48,360
Speaker 3: and then go to sleep.

1670
01:37:50,120 --> 01:37:55,439
Speaker 1: Speaking of rereading things that you love, I'm often drawn

1671
01:37:55,680 --> 01:37:59,479
Speaker 1: to some scenes in Hill just because that, you know,

1672
01:38:00,600 --> 01:38:03,120
Speaker 1: they're so evocative, and one that I go back to

1673
01:38:03,240 --> 01:38:11,080
Speaker 1: again and again is the moment when Edwin King asks

1674
01:38:11,320 --> 01:38:14,519
Speaker 1: Hill to it gives her a challenge. She has to carry,

1675
01:38:15,000 --> 01:38:17,840
Speaker 1: you know, and she has to pour a cup for

1676
01:38:18,000 --> 01:38:23,479
Speaker 1: the King while carrying this extremely heavy torque armband that

1677
01:38:23,600 --> 01:38:27,920
Speaker 1: he has given her, and she finds a very inventive

1678
01:38:28,520 --> 01:38:32,439
Speaker 1: way to carry this out, surprising everyone. And it's a

1679
01:38:32,479 --> 01:38:34,640
Speaker 1: big moment. And there's other big moments like this, And

1680
01:38:36,439 --> 01:38:39,200
Speaker 1: when I'm reading them, all was thinking, God, for a

1681
01:38:39,360 --> 01:38:44,439
Speaker 1: child to be there and bluff the king to the

1682
01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:47,240
Speaker 1: point that the king is saying, Okay, well, we're going

1683
01:38:47,320 --> 01:38:48,880
Speaker 1: to do this thing that you're telling us to do,

1684
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:50,560
Speaker 1: but if you're wrong, I'm going to feed you to

1685
01:38:50,680 --> 01:38:54,200
Speaker 1: my dogs. What is it like to write these scenes

1686
01:38:54,280 --> 01:38:59,280
Speaker 1: where you're just putting this child into these into these

1687
01:39:00,120 --> 01:39:04,479
Speaker 1: positions of great, great peril because I'm always so much

1688
01:39:04,560 --> 01:39:05,640
Speaker 1: more nervous than she is.

1689
01:39:08,040 --> 01:39:14,920
Speaker 3: Well, that's That's the thing about kids, is that I

1690
01:39:15,000 --> 01:39:18,040
Speaker 3: suppose part of me is trying to hild as say,

1691
01:39:18,520 --> 01:39:21,679
Speaker 3: a seven year old with the heavy and the talk,

1692
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:28,320
Speaker 3: the armoring, trying to write her the way I would

1693
01:39:28,560 --> 01:39:32,200
Speaker 3: like to have been, you know, as a kid. I

1694
01:39:32,280 --> 01:39:34,920
Speaker 3: mean I was one of those I was always in fights.

1695
01:39:35,040 --> 01:39:37,840
Speaker 3: I like to climb trees, you know, I was. I

1696
01:39:37,960 --> 01:39:41,160
Speaker 3: wanted to live a big life. I wanted to do

1697
01:39:41,479 --> 01:39:46,560
Speaker 3: amazing things, and to me Hill there is that opportunity

1698
01:39:46,720 --> 01:39:51,320
Speaker 3: to do that, and so I didn't have a lot

1699
01:39:51,400 --> 01:39:54,680
Speaker 3: of fear as a seven year old, and so I

1700
01:39:55,080 --> 01:39:59,240
Speaker 3: give hild the kind of fear and caution I had

1701
01:39:59,280 --> 01:40:01,840
Speaker 3: as a seven year ol, which is she kind of

1702
01:40:02,000 --> 01:40:06,719
Speaker 3: knows that she's in great danger, but it doesn't freak

1703
01:40:06,800 --> 01:40:09,759
Speaker 3: her out. You know, she doesn't have a thundering heart,

1704
01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:13,080
Speaker 3: and she doesn't get sweaty. She's not part of her

1705
01:40:13,200 --> 01:40:17,840
Speaker 3: Her body doesn't really believe it. Her mind does because

1706
01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:24,759
Speaker 3: everyone tells her. But really, deep down, she knows she's immortal,

1707
01:40:24,960 --> 01:40:26,679
Speaker 3: like all kids do. We all think.

1708
01:40:29,280 --> 01:40:30,439
Speaker 2: So she's she's like that.

1709
01:40:30,640 --> 01:40:33,639
Speaker 3: But but then when I write the scene where someone

1710
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:36,000
Speaker 3: threatens her that way, it gives me a shiver. I go,

1711
01:40:38,320 --> 01:40:40,640
Speaker 3: I can't I can't wait for someone else to read it,

1712
01:40:40,840 --> 01:40:43,759
Speaker 3: you know, I there are there. I love those moments

1713
01:40:43,800 --> 01:40:47,840
Speaker 3: in work going. I have playlists and I tend to

1714
01:40:47,920 --> 01:40:53,040
Speaker 3: type in rhythm and then something like happens and that

1715
01:40:53,200 --> 01:40:59,160
Speaker 3: girl and I always imagine the music swelling. It never does,

1716
01:40:59,200 --> 01:41:03,400
Speaker 3: because it's never that way. But yeah, it feels like that.

1717
01:41:03,520 --> 01:41:07,240
Speaker 3: It feels like this huge, amazing moment. I love writing.

1718
01:41:07,479 --> 01:41:12,479
Speaker 3: It's such a It's the best job I've ever had

1719
01:41:12,520 --> 01:41:14,120
Speaker 3: in my life, and I expect to have it till

1720
01:41:15,120 --> 01:41:17,080
Speaker 3: I dropped dead, which hopefully won't be for a really

1721
01:41:17,160 --> 01:41:19,720
Speaker 3: long time because I'm having too much fun and I

1722
01:41:19,800 --> 01:41:21,679
Speaker 3: have too much, too much to write.

1723
01:41:22,920 --> 01:41:26,439
Speaker 1: Speaking of can what if anything? Can you tell us

1724
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:27,559
Speaker 1: of mean Wood?

1725
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:35,080
Speaker 3: It's long. It is about thirty percent longer than Hill.

1726
01:41:35,600 --> 01:41:37,639
Speaker 1: Oh wow, it's wow wow wow long.

1727
01:41:38,439 --> 01:41:44,400
Speaker 3: And it starts almost immediately. Let me see when how

1728
01:41:44,479 --> 01:41:48,600
Speaker 3: many maybe four months after the end of Hill, and

1729
01:41:48,720 --> 01:41:54,719
Speaker 3: then it goes for four years and talk about endless

1730
01:41:54,840 --> 01:42:03,320
Speaker 3: regime change. Yeah wow. So she lends a lot about war.

1731
01:42:04,680 --> 01:42:09,160
Speaker 3: She has some very difficult times, but also she has

1732
01:42:09,280 --> 01:42:14,439
Speaker 3: these amazing joyous moments, and the book does end with

1733
01:42:14,600 --> 01:42:18,160
Speaker 3: a great sense of excitement and discovery and adventure. So

1734
01:42:18,320 --> 01:42:20,360
Speaker 3: that's pretty much all I'm going to say.

1735
01:42:20,680 --> 01:42:24,240
Speaker 1: We can't wait, We can't wait for it. Thank you

1736
01:42:24,360 --> 01:42:26,840
Speaker 1: Nicola for joining us. It's been wonderful to talk to you.

1737
01:42:27,439 --> 01:42:29,200
Speaker 3: It's been my pleasure. Thank you.

1738
01:42:29,840 --> 01:42:31,760
Speaker 1: Thanks so much to Nicola Griffith for coming on the

1739
01:42:31,800 --> 01:42:41,760
Speaker 1: show up next nerd Out. In Today's nerd Out, where

1740
01:42:41,800 --> 01:42:44,559
Speaker 1: you tell us what you love and why, Dave aka

1741
01:42:44,760 --> 01:42:49,200
Speaker 1: mister Fire to his students, pitches us on the Illuminatus trilogy.

1742
01:42:49,520 --> 01:42:52,080
Speaker 4: Hello Nerds, I'm coming to you today to talk about

1743
01:42:52,120 --> 01:42:55,559
Speaker 4: one of my favorite forms of nerdery, which is books,

1744
01:42:55,880 --> 01:42:59,560
Speaker 4: specifically the Illuminatus trilogy, written by Robert Anton Wilson and

1745
01:42:59,720 --> 01:43:05,240
Speaker 4: Robert Shay. Wilson and Shay were editors for Playboy. Specifically,

1746
01:43:05,560 --> 01:43:09,080
Speaker 4: they were dealing with letters to the magazine. Apparently some

1747
01:43:09,160 --> 01:43:12,160
Speaker 4: people really were reading it for the articles, and many

1748
01:43:12,200 --> 01:43:15,599
Speaker 4: of the letters that they received were about conspiracy theories.

1749
01:43:15,960 --> 01:43:18,800
Speaker 4: And the two of these guys decided between them that

1750
01:43:19,080 --> 01:43:22,479
Speaker 4: they were going to ask the question not which of

1751
01:43:22,560 --> 01:43:25,720
Speaker 4: these conspiracy theories are true, but rather what if all

1752
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:29,200
Speaker 4: of them are true? And these books, this trilogy is

1753
01:43:29,320 --> 01:43:33,439
Speaker 4: conceived as a sort of journey through what if every

1754
01:43:33,479 --> 01:43:36,360
Speaker 4: single one of these conspiracies were true? What if not

1755
01:43:36,520 --> 01:43:40,240
Speaker 4: only someone other than who we think killed John F. Kennedy,

1756
01:43:40,360 --> 01:43:43,240
Speaker 4: What if a bunch of people killed John F. Kennedy altogether?

1757
01:43:43,800 --> 01:43:47,200
Speaker 4: What if John Dillinger is still alive? What if Adam

1758
01:43:47,280 --> 01:43:51,439
Speaker 4: Weishaupt killed George Washington and replaced him in order to

1759
01:43:51,520 --> 01:43:54,439
Speaker 4: bring the Bavarian Illuminati into power in the United States

1760
01:43:54,840 --> 01:43:58,920
Speaker 4: and either spread or stop the spread of cannabis being

1761
01:43:59,000 --> 01:44:02,400
Speaker 4: grown by George Washingrington and Thomas Jefferson. What if the

1762
01:44:02,600 --> 01:44:05,880
Speaker 4: MC five were spreading secrets with their song Kick Out

1763
01:44:05,920 --> 01:44:08,800
Speaker 4: the Jams. All of these things, all of these conspiracy

1764
01:44:08,880 --> 01:44:13,720
Speaker 4: theories are treated as completely real in these novels. The

1765
01:44:13,840 --> 01:44:16,519
Speaker 4: three books that make up the Illuminatus trilogy, The Eye

1766
01:44:16,560 --> 01:44:20,559
Speaker 4: in the Pyramid, The Golden Apple, and Leviathan all kind

1767
01:44:20,600 --> 01:44:26,320
Speaker 4: of work together, spinning this wild, drug fueled narrative building

1768
01:44:26,400 --> 01:44:30,240
Speaker 4: towards a gigantic music festival that has the names of

1769
01:44:31,000 --> 01:44:33,240
Speaker 4: hundreds of made up bands, some of which are now

1770
01:44:33,360 --> 01:44:39,439
Speaker 4: real bands. They all together craft a story of talking

1771
01:44:39,600 --> 01:44:44,840
Speaker 4: dolphins and an Atlantis that's real, built with Lovecraftian monsters.

1772
01:44:45,439 --> 01:44:50,040
Speaker 4: Novels from Pension and Vonnegut are referenced. This is the

1773
01:44:50,240 --> 01:44:53,240
Speaker 4: kind of stuff that will blow your mind and probably

1774
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:56,240
Speaker 4: heard it more than just a little. These books are

1775
01:44:56,560 --> 01:45:01,639
Speaker 4: extremely important to some of our favorite writers and TV writers.

1776
01:45:01,720 --> 01:45:06,439
Speaker 4: Damon Lindelof, You'll see elements of this in Lost in Fringe.

1777
01:45:06,520 --> 01:45:08,879
Speaker 4: You see this from Chris Carter in The X Files.

1778
01:45:09,640 --> 01:45:13,439
Speaker 4: Alan Moore has called Robert Anton Wilson an inspiration. We

1779
01:45:13,560 --> 01:45:16,880
Speaker 4: see this also from people like Grant Morrison, and now

1780
01:45:17,479 --> 01:45:20,640
Speaker 4: with the rise of what may be the Illuminati in

1781
01:45:20,720 --> 01:45:24,599
Speaker 4: our new doctor Strange trailer. We know that this may

1782
01:45:24,680 --> 01:45:28,479
Speaker 4: be the origin of that term coming back into the

1783
01:45:28,640 --> 01:45:32,880
Speaker 4: narrative once again. So check out these books. They're great.

1784
01:45:33,120 --> 01:45:34,439
Speaker 4: You will absolutely love them.

1785
01:45:34,720 --> 01:45:36,479
Speaker 1: Thanks Dave for submitting. If you want to be featured,

1786
01:45:36,520 --> 01:45:38,280
Speaker 1: send your nerd out pitch to x Ray at cricket

1787
01:45:38,320 --> 01:45:43,040
Speaker 1: dot com instructions or in the show notes. Big thank

1788
01:45:43,120 --> 01:45:44,880
Speaker 1: you to Dave for his nerd out and of course

1789
01:45:45,000 --> 01:45:48,560
Speaker 1: Nikola Griffith for joining us, and of course for the

1790
01:45:48,640 --> 01:45:52,599
Speaker 1: great Rosie Knight for co hosting this podcast today. It's

1791
01:45:52,640 --> 01:45:56,120
Speaker 1: been a wonderful day of discussions that I hope are

1792
01:45:56,200 --> 01:45:58,720
Speaker 1: meaningful to some people. Rosie, it is plug time. What

1793
01:45:58,840 --> 01:45:59,439
Speaker 1: are we plug in?

1794
01:46:00,360 --> 01:46:02,280
Speaker 2: It's me. You can find me.

1795
01:46:02,800 --> 01:46:07,320
Speaker 5: I'm back after two seconds. You can find me Rosie

1796
01:46:07,360 --> 01:46:13,280
Speaker 5: marks on Instagram. I recently visited a very incredible community

1797
01:46:13,360 --> 01:46:17,800
Speaker 5: cinema called Vidiots that's being built in in La I've

1798
01:46:17,880 --> 01:46:20,599
Speaker 5: got a little fundraiser running through my Instagram, so feel

1799
01:46:20,640 --> 01:46:21,720
Speaker 5: free to go there and learn a.

1800
01:46:21,760 --> 01:46:23,960
Speaker 2: Little bit more. I'll have a big feature coming up

1801
01:46:24,040 --> 01:46:27,519
Speaker 2: about them at Nerdict. It's a really incredible space that's

1802
01:46:27,560 --> 01:46:29,240
Speaker 2: going to be a video store where you can actually

1803
01:46:29,320 --> 01:46:32,160
Speaker 2: rent DVDs and blu rays, as well as a community

1804
01:46:32,240 --> 01:46:35,120
Speaker 2: cinema that will have a space for local people to

1805
01:46:35,720 --> 01:46:39,120
Speaker 2: screen films, to speak to talk to know each other,

1806
01:46:39,200 --> 01:46:43,080
Speaker 2: and it will have a huge, beautiful screen to screen movies.

1807
01:46:43,840 --> 01:46:48,320
Speaker 2: Vidiots is continuing like this unbelievable legacy of female owned

1808
01:46:48,479 --> 01:46:51,120
Speaker 2: female helm video store in Santa Monica that's been there

1809
01:46:51,120 --> 01:46:53,800
Speaker 2: since the eighties, So just generally good stuff. So go

1810
01:46:54,000 --> 01:46:56,559
Speaker 2: check out Vidiots. Support them. They're in the support mode

1811
01:46:57,080 --> 01:46:59,240
Speaker 2: at the moment because they're still building the new location.

1812
01:47:00,240 --> 01:47:02,800
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's that's my big pluck it. It was

1813
01:47:03,080 --> 01:47:03,599
Speaker 2: very cool.

1814
01:47:04,000 --> 01:47:06,800
Speaker 1: I'm really excited for videots, and it seems like it's

1815
01:47:06,840 --> 01:47:10,120
Speaker 1: such a really wonderful project to get behind and that

1816
01:47:10,240 --> 01:47:13,439
Speaker 1: already has like a lot of really wonderful people supporting it.

1817
01:47:13,520 --> 01:47:18,080
Speaker 1: That's a cool one. Check out our videos on the

1818
01:47:18,200 --> 01:47:21,719
Speaker 1: Uncultured YouTube channel. Catch the next episode April twenty second,

1819
01:47:21,760 --> 01:47:25,760
Speaker 1: when we'll be revisiting WandaVision and anticipation. This is gonna

1820
01:47:25,760 --> 01:47:28,320
Speaker 1: be really fun. I'm excited to rewatch WandaVision and I'm

1821
01:47:28,360 --> 01:47:31,599
Speaker 1: excited to talk about it because the Multiverse of Madness

1822
01:47:31,680 --> 01:47:33,960
Speaker 1: is coming, folks. Doctor Stranger in the multiverseit of Madness,

1823
01:47:34,000 --> 01:47:36,280
Speaker 1: which I think we both expect to see a lot

1824
01:47:36,360 --> 01:47:39,280
Speaker 1: of the repercussions of the events of WandaVision in that movie.

1825
01:47:39,400 --> 01:47:41,040
Speaker 1: Be sure to send out your nerd out submissions to

1826
01:47:41,120 --> 01:47:43,519
Speaker 1: x raycrookd dot com instructures during the show notes and

1827
01:47:43,600 --> 01:47:46,120
Speaker 1: don't forget we love the five star ratings, folks. We

1828
01:47:46,160 --> 01:47:48,519
Speaker 1: love them, We absolutely love them. We thrive on them.

1829
01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:51,160
Speaker 1: Please send us the five star ratings. If you're thinking

1830
01:47:51,200 --> 01:47:54,160
Speaker 1: about like a four, don't even think about it. Give

1831
01:47:54,240 --> 01:47:56,080
Speaker 1: us a five. We need the five.

1832
01:47:56,320 --> 01:47:56,639
Speaker 2: Baby.

1833
01:47:57,040 --> 01:47:58,840
Speaker 1: X ray Vision is a Crooked Media production. The show

1834
01:47:58,920 --> 01:48:00,639
Speaker 1: is produced by Chris Lord and rub In. The show

1835
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:03,639
Speaker 1: is executive produced by myself and Sandys Rhard are editing

1836
01:48:03,680 --> 01:48:07,160
Speaker 1: in sound design, news by Vascilla's Fatopoulos, Dellan Villanueva and

1837
01:48:07,280 --> 01:48:10,000
Speaker 1: Matta Group provide video production support, and Alex Rella for

1838
01:48:10,160 --> 01:48:13,120
Speaker 1: handle social media. Thank you Brian Vasquez for theme music.

1839
01:48:13,640 --> 01:48:13,960
Speaker 2: Bye