Speaker 1: Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Hord and thanks for downloading
Speaker 1: the Bengals Booth Podcast. The it comes all shape sen sizes. Addition,
Speaker 1: as I take an in depth look at the top
Speaker 1: offensive and defensive line prospects in this year's draft with
Speaker 1: line play expert Brandon Thorn, and after talking to Brandon,
Speaker 1: I'll do my second version of a three round Bengals
Speaker 1: mock draft, detailing who is still on the board at
Speaker 1: the time and why I made each of my picks.
Speaker 1: The Bengals Booth Podcast is brought to you by pay Core,
Speaker 1: proud to be the Bengals official HR software provider, by
Speaker 1: Alta Fiber future proof fiber Internet designed to elevate your home,
Speaker 1: business and community to a new level, and by Kettering
Speaker 1: Health the best care for the best fans. Kettering Health
Speaker 1: is the official healthcare provider of the Bengals. Now here's
Speaker 1: a quick reminder that you can have the latest edition
Speaker 1: of the podcast delivered write to your phone, tablet or
Speaker 1: computer by subscribing wherever you get your podcasts. It's the
Speaker 1: greatest thing since the Alford Packer Restaurant and Grill. My son,
Speaker 1: Sam is a high school senior and we recently took
Speaker 1: a campus visit to the University of Colorado, where our
Speaker 1: tour guide told us an interesting story about one of
Speaker 1: the dining halls when it was built. See you, students
Speaker 1: were given the opportunity to name the dining hall, with
Speaker 1: one stipulation. They had to choose a famous Colorado The winner,
Speaker 1: in a landslide vote was Alford Packer. Who is that
Speaker 1: you ask? He is the only man in United States
Speaker 1: history ever convicted of cannibalism. It was approved by the
Speaker 1: university's board of regents, and the slogan of the Alford
Speaker 1: Packer Restaurant and grill is have a friend for lunch. Now,
Speaker 1: let's get to football. The NFL Draft is two weeks
Speaker 1: away and the overwhelming consensus of the draft gurus is
Speaker 1: that the Bengals are likely to take an offensive or
Speaker 1: defensive tackle in the first round. But which one should
Speaker 1: they select. I discuss that and the state of the
Speaker 1: Bengals offensive line this week with Brandon Thorne, an expert
Speaker 1: an offensive and defensive line play who is part of
Speaker 1: the draft coverage team at bleacher Report. Brandon, we will
Speaker 1: get to the draft in just a bit, but let's
Speaker 1: start with the Bengals offseason acquisition of Trent Brown. When healthy,
Speaker 1: you have referred to him as one of the most
Speaker 1: effective pass protectors at the position with dominant stretches as
Speaker 1: a run blocker. He'll be thirty one this year with
Speaker 1: nine years of NFL wear and tear. What do you
Speaker 1: think the Bengals are getting in Trent Brown?
Speaker 2: Exactly what you just said, pretty much, assuming that he
Speaker 2: is healthy and you know, at least going to start
Speaker 2: the year healthy. It's a you know, a little bit
Speaker 2: of a chore for him or has been, to stay
Speaker 2: healthy throughout a season. So that's really why I think
Speaker 2: more than anything, he's bounced around at different places throughout
Speaker 2: his career, but pretty much when he's on the field,
Speaker 2: you know, I think he's a really good pass protector
Speaker 2: and definitely at least a good run blocker with like
Speaker 2: I said, stretches of being able to run behind him,
Speaker 2: you know, in the run game, you know, almost quite literally,
Speaker 2: just the way he could cave into defenders and even
Speaker 2: just kind of move as well, you know, to get
Speaker 2: up to the second level here and there as well.
Speaker 2: So he's yeah, I mean, he's he's one of the more,
Speaker 2: if not the most athletic, like three hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: plus pound offensive lineman in the league. I think, certainly
Speaker 2: in the conversation, I think he's more athletic than you know,
Speaker 2: Sara Orlando Brown. On the other side, it's just Orlando's
Speaker 2: you know, like ruthlessly consistent, you know, in terms of
Speaker 2: availability and things like that. So that's what makes him,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, as valuable as he is, I think.
Speaker 2: But in terms of a skill level athletic ability, I
Speaker 2: think Trent Brown is a really quality player at least
Speaker 2: in the short term.
Speaker 1: Do you view it as an upgrade from Jonah.
Speaker 2: Williams, Yeah, I do, Yeah, I do. He hasn't played
Speaker 2: right tackle in you know, a few years now, but
Speaker 2: he's one of those unique cases where he's he probably
Speaker 2: has just off the top of my head, you know,
Speaker 2: thirty starts at left and right tackle at least, that's
Speaker 2: just kind of a number that I'm just thinking of
Speaker 2: off the top of my head. But yeah, so he
Speaker 2: kind of unique in that regard. But but yeah, I
Speaker 2: do think it's an upgrade really just for what he
Speaker 2: can do as a pass protector. I just think it's
Speaker 2: just a little bit a little bit better. He can
Speaker 2: match up better one on one with the higher level
Speaker 2: pass rushers, I think, and that's really the separator there.
Speaker 1: So looking at the group as it stands right now,
Speaker 1: and obviously this could change after the draft. Orlando Brown
Speaker 1: junior at left tackle, Cordell Volson left guard, Ted Karris center,
Speaker 1: Alex Kappa right guard, Trent Brown right tackle, how would
Speaker 1: you describe that group?
Speaker 2: I think that group is pretty good. I would say,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't have like rankings in front of me.
Speaker 2: I'm not haven't done that yet obviously, you know, with
Speaker 2: all the things that still have to play out, But
Speaker 2: you know, just I would say this is a middle
Speaker 2: of the pack kind of line probably. You know, I
Speaker 2: have questions that you know, left guard and to a
Speaker 2: lesser degree, center, I mean, I know Ted Carris is
Speaker 2: he's kind of outperformed what I what I thought, honestly,
Speaker 2: because he's always been, you know, from Miami and New
Speaker 2: England just kind of either a spot starter, but you know,
Speaker 2: he's definitely performed at a solid level. But I think
Speaker 2: you could probably upgrade that position in this draft. So, uh,
Speaker 2: and then left guard, I think you could definitely upgrade
Speaker 2: that position in this draft. So those are the two spots.
Speaker 2: Maybe kind of weigh it down a little bit, but
Speaker 2: I would say there's no glaring hole, you know, which
Speaker 2: is nice, so pretty good solid middle of the pack
Speaker 2: I think is a fair assessment.
Speaker 1: Right now. Let's turn the defensive line. The Bengals signed
Speaker 1: Sheldon Rankins to a two year contract list offseason to
Speaker 1: try to beef up their interior pass rush. He says
Speaker 1: he's underrated against the run. What do you think overall
Speaker 1: of Sheldon Rankings.
Speaker 2: I like Sheldon Rankings, you know, I think he's probably solid,
Speaker 2: you know, okay against the run, but more so, you know,
Speaker 2: while you sign him ideally as you know, really just
Speaker 2: because of what he could do as a pass rusher.
Speaker 2: He has a really good spin move, you know, really
Speaker 2: a variety of counters. I would say he's a very
Speaker 2: crafty pass rusher, and I'm just really excited and glad
Speaker 2: that he's able to kind of reclaim some of the
Speaker 2: explosiveness that wasn't always there. He had some pretty serious injuries.
Speaker 2: I know, he had one real serious injury early on
Speaker 2: in his career, and it looked like he may not
Speaker 2: regain what he once was. But I you know, after
Speaker 2: the last couple of seasons, I think he's cleared that
Speaker 2: bar and now he's kind of back to what he
Speaker 2: was early on. And you know, I think he's definitely
Speaker 2: an above average, if not like very good pass rusher.
Speaker 2: So yeah, and I don't I don't think Cincinnati's had that.
Speaker 2: You know, I think BJ Hill's pretty solid in that regard.
Speaker 2: But now you have two guys that are viable threats
Speaker 2: rushing the passer interior, you know, on the interior the
Speaker 2: defensive line. I don't think Cincinnati's had that. And in
Speaker 2: quite a while.
Speaker 1: The Bengals wanted to keep DJ Reader he signed with
Speaker 1: the Lions instead. How concerned should we be about the
Speaker 1: Bengals run defense without DJ Reader?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's that's the trade off here. You know,
Speaker 2: you're you're improving the pass rush pretty significantly from you know,
Speaker 2: Reader to Rankins, but then you're also, you know, going
Speaker 2: in the other direction in terms of run defense. And
Speaker 2: it's just it's really a trade off here. And now, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, you're gonna have to probably replace Reader by committee,
Speaker 2: you know, and I think it's probably honestly easier to
Speaker 2: replace a guy like Reader than it would be to
Speaker 2: lose a similar level player as a pass Rusher, I
Speaker 2: just think that skill set is more valuable. So as
Speaker 2: much as I love DJ Reader, you know, going back
Speaker 2: to I think twenty seventeen Houston when I really studied
Speaker 2: him and fell in love with his game, yeah, I
Speaker 2: think that's just kind of the reality of it. So
Speaker 2: I actually kind of like the direction that they went,
Speaker 2: even though you are going to experience some loss in
Speaker 2: the run game or defending the run for sure.
Speaker 1: Brandon Thorn is our guest. You can find his articles,
Speaker 1: film breakdowns, and podcast at Trench Warfare dot substack dot com.
Speaker 1: Let's turn to the draft. Is it a historically good
Speaker 1: group of offensive linemen in your opinion?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's probably fair. You know, I've been
Speaker 2: studying every offensive lineman for four years now. This is
Speaker 2: my fourth year, so I would say it's the best
Speaker 2: class that i've seen, with twenty twenty one being a
Speaker 2: fairly close second, you know, and we had a really
Speaker 2: good class the end, but I think it's a little
Speaker 2: bit better than that. And you know, it depends on
Speaker 2: how you want to project some of these tackles, you know,
Speaker 2: whether you think they're going to stay at tackle or
Speaker 2: go to guard. I think a few of them go
Speaker 2: to guard. So I actually think it's a very well
Speaker 2: rounded class. Because of that, you have some high level tackles, three, four,
Speaker 2: five of them that at least high level talent wise,
Speaker 2: probably two three are going to be really good starters
Speaker 2: right away, and another couple could be. And then the
Speaker 2: guys that I have projected inside, I think all could
Speaker 2: be you know, pretty much good guards right away. So
Speaker 2: you have three four really good guards, and then you
Speaker 2: know at center, this class I think is historically deep
Speaker 2: in terms of guys who could potentially start games within
Speaker 2: the rookie contract. Not that they're going to be full
Speaker 2: time instant starters, but you do have a few of
Speaker 2: those guys as well. I just think there's a lot
Speaker 2: of potential throughout this draft at center, you know, in particular.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's a deep, well rounded class, and
Speaker 2: it's it's really fun to talk about. I'm not even
Speaker 2: done evaluating it yet.
Speaker 1: So the Bengals have the eighteenth overall pick. They generally
Speaker 1: do not trade up in the first round, so for
Speaker 1: this podcast, we're not even going to consider a trade up.
Speaker 1: We'll just talk about guys that might be there at
Speaker 1: number eighteen. I'm assuming there's no way that Joe Alt
Speaker 1: will be there. It seems like every single mock draft
Speaker 1: that I've looked at he's long gone by the number eighteen.
Speaker 1: But after that, several others will be gone. But it's
Speaker 1: hard to tell which guys because there's kind of beauty
Speaker 1: in the eyes of the beholder in this draft. So
Speaker 1: let's take a look at some of the possibilities, at
Speaker 1: least beginning with JC Latham from Alabama six ' five
Speaker 1: three forty. I know you did a film breakdown with him.
Speaker 1: What do you think of JC Latham potentially as the
Speaker 1: Bengals right tackle of the future.
Speaker 2: I think it'd be a great fit for a lot
Speaker 2: of guys, a lot of teams that right tackle. Cincinnati
Speaker 2: in particular, just with the way that they operate, especially
Speaker 2: in the run game. I think it would fit in
Speaker 2: Clement Orlando Brown well. And you know, JC Latham I've
Speaker 2: described as probably the strongest offensive lineman in this class
Speaker 2: in terms of pure strength play strength. And you know,
Speaker 2: the term vice scripts gets thrown around, I think in
Speaker 2: scouting circles a little loosely at times, but it is
Speaker 2: as apt for him as anybody that I could recall
Speaker 2: over the last four years. Truly, he's one of the
Speaker 2: more difficult guys to work through or to beat going
Speaker 2: through him, so you know, just straight line power and
Speaker 2: then his anchor ability as well to stop power is
Speaker 2: really really good, you know special. I think is fair
Speaker 2: to say he's kind of in the mold of the
Speaker 2: Tevin Jenkins or Darnell Wright last year. It's just he's
Speaker 2: bigger than both of those guys in terms of length
Speaker 2: and weight. So you know, I'm a big fan of him.
Speaker 2: He's my number three tackle in this class. I have
Speaker 2: a you know, kind of a mid first round grade
Speaker 2: on him. I think that's probably where he's going to go.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I just think, you know, if all else
Speaker 2: fails and he doesn't really kind of refine the nuances
Speaker 2: in his game, specifically in past protection, he has something
Speaker 2: to fall back on, and that's elite level play strength.
Speaker 2: And I think that that is something that I really
Speaker 2: feel good about betting on with a lot of guys,
Speaker 2: and I think, you know, with Jenkins and Darnel Wright,
Speaker 2: you know, just being able to carve out a role
Speaker 2: even though like with Jenkins, couldn't make tackle work, you know,
Speaker 2: granted he got moved around. That's a whole other thing.
Speaker 2: But he's a quality starter now because he's so strong
Speaker 2: and big and physically imposing and it's legit. And then
Speaker 2: Darnall Wright what he did last year, I think he's
Speaker 2: going to be probably a quality starter for a while.
Speaker 2: So I see at least that with Latham, he just
Speaker 2: has a little bit more upside than those guys, I
Speaker 2: think because of his size, and yeah, so I'm a fan.
Speaker 1: If he's your third tackle, who are one and two?
Speaker 2: Olufshanu is number two and then Joe Walt's number one.
Speaker 1: Latham didn't test at the Combine or at his pro day.
Speaker 1: Any red flag there where you're concerned.
Speaker 2: No, not not really, because I think you kind of
Speaker 2: know what you're getting, you know, based on just watching
Speaker 2: him on film. You know, I think he's a If
Speaker 2: he did test, it would probably be like, you know,
Speaker 2: he's a good athlete, not a not a great athlete.
Speaker 2: And everybody's you know, three hundred and forty pounds too,
Speaker 2: So not too much of a red flag for me, honestly.
Speaker 2: I just I think, you know, the play strength and
Speaker 2: the power and the anchoring ability is really what you're
Speaker 2: paying for, you know, sort of speak in the draft
Speaker 2: and can't really measure that with the testing anyway, So
Speaker 2: I don't think he would have bombed it, you know,
Speaker 2: or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Brandon Thorn is our guest. You can follow him on
Speaker 1: x at Brandon Thorn NFL. Let's talk about Troy fa
Speaker 1: Utanu of Washington next. He's not as big as some
Speaker 1: of the others. Six four three seventeen, mostly played left
Speaker 1: tackle in college. Some see him as a guard in
Speaker 1: the NFL. What do you think of Utanu overall and
Speaker 1: and then specifically as a potential right tackle.
Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of Fatanu, and he's my number
Speaker 2: one guard in the draft, and so you know, projecting
Speaker 2: him inside, he's one of maybe two guys who I
Speaker 2: think have true five position flexibility, along with Graham Barton
Speaker 2: from Duke. But yeah, I just you know, I said
Speaker 2: this on multiple podcasts already, But it's like every time
Speaker 2: I think about Fatanu, you know, and and I've listened
Speaker 2: to you know, some smart people talk about him. You know,
Speaker 2: some people see for Sean Slater and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I could see that. Some people have even said Marquise
Speaker 2: Pouncey at center. I'm like, yeah, I could see that.
Speaker 2: And then for me, I think the ideal fit for
Speaker 2: him is as guard, and I see him being a
Speaker 2: caliber of player as like Ali Marpette was, you know,
Speaker 2: somebody like that. He's a little bit longer than Marpette was,
Speaker 2: but some similarities in their game, I think. And I
Speaker 2: just think his play style fits ideally at guard. He's
Speaker 2: very aggressive and that could get him into trouble at tackle,
Speaker 2: and it did you know here and there at Washington,
Speaker 2: and I just think that that could be a little
Speaker 2: bit pronounced, you know, in the NFL. That's the difference
Speaker 2: between him and Rashaun Slater to me, as Rashawn Slater
Speaker 2: was more patient, more tactful in his approach, whereas Fatan,
Speaker 2: who is much more aggressive and kind of a frenetic
Speaker 2: energy that he brings to the to the field that's
Speaker 2: very different than Slater. So I just think that would
Speaker 2: be ideal inside. It would be kind of a seamless
Speaker 2: transition for him, and I see a really high level player.
Speaker 2: He's one of the four or five best overall offensive
Speaker 2: linemen in the draft in my opinion. So yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: a huge fan of him, and he's you know, he's
Speaker 2: one of the best guys in this class.
Speaker 1: Up next to Lasi Fauaga of Oregon State, another big
Speaker 1: man at six six three twenty four. He's been a
Speaker 1: starting right tackle for the last couple of years, a
Speaker 1: team captain. The Bengals like that. He was excellent to
Speaker 1: during the Senior Bowl. What stands out when you watch
Speaker 1: for Waga large frame.
Speaker 2: You know, he's well dispersed, you know, like thickness throughout
Speaker 2: his build, big hands, you know, decent adequate length, but
Speaker 2: he's very quick. You know, he operated in a run
Speaker 2: first his own heavy scheme at Oregon State, so it's
Speaker 2: kind of you know, fit him maximized what he did
Speaker 2: well in terms of as a run blocker. I think
Speaker 2: he has a case for being the best run blocker
Speaker 2: in the in the class, so that's really his you know,
Speaker 2: where he wins primarily. Pass protection is good, not great,
Speaker 2: I'd say, I think, really when you dig into his film,
Speaker 2: even at the Senior Bowl, he has issues protecting the
Speaker 2: corner against high level speed rushers who know how to
Speaker 2: set up their moves, and he's vulnerable to the cross
Speaker 2: chop technique in particular getting that outside hand chopped and
Speaker 2: creating a short corner. You know, I posted ten clips
Speaker 2: of that on Twitter. There's more from his tape and
Speaker 2: then their senior Bowl examples as well. So for that reason,
Speaker 2: I have n't projected inside where I see like kind
Speaker 2: of a supercharged Viti who has been a you know,
Speaker 2: a guard in the NFL. He's just more athletic than
Speaker 2: he was. You could even see shades of like a
Speaker 2: mic you Potty, you know, somebody like that as well.
Speaker 2: So I see a high level guard here. He has
Speaker 2: all the makings of it. So I'm a fan. I
Speaker 2: just you know, I have some reservations with him sticking
Speaker 2: a tackle as well.
Speaker 1: One of the players most frequently mock draft to the
Speaker 1: Bengals is Amrius Mims from Georgia. He looks like Orlando
Speaker 1: Brown junior and Trent Brown in terms of the size six'
Speaker 1: eight three forty. He wouldn't have to start right away
Speaker 1: at right tackle since Trent Brown is signed for a year.
Speaker 1: The big thing that everybody always brings up is the
Speaker 1: lack of experience only eight college starts. How big of
Speaker 1: a concern is that? And what do you think of Mims?
Speaker 2: For me? You know, Mims is my fourth tackle in
Speaker 2: this draft, and you know I don't have as much
Speaker 2: concerns there. You know, I have a high second round
Speaker 2: grade on him, you know, which for us is a
Speaker 2: potential impact starter, you know, right on the fringe of
Speaker 2: first round, like late first, early second kind of you know,
Speaker 2: he's assuming he's going to go earlier than that. But
Speaker 2: but yeah, not as much of a concern with him
Speaker 2: because when you watch his film, I don't see many
Speaker 2: bad habits on his film. So it's really truly kind
Speaker 2: of like a blank canvas and you're working with really
Speaker 2: really good tools to make something really special here. In
Speaker 2: terms of how he looks, you know, you mentioned Orlando
Speaker 2: and Trent Brown on paper, Yeah, but when you look
Speaker 2: at him, he doesn't look anything like those guys. He's
Speaker 2: just much more lean. He carries his weight in a
Speaker 2: way that is rare, I would say, you know, at
Speaker 2: his size. So just really truly a physical specimen in
Speaker 2: a way that you don't often see. Natural pass protecting
Speaker 2: ability and movement skills is really what stands out most
Speaker 2: to me and why I you know, kind of jumped
Speaker 2: on his evaluation and graded him. You know, what I
Speaker 2: feel is pretty highly considering your only played eight games.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so I'm a fan, you know, I think
Speaker 2: He's one of the four best tackles in the class,
Speaker 2: and going to a situation like Cincinnati would be ideal,
Speaker 2: you know, in a lot of ways. They were like
Speaker 2: Philly obviously, but yeah, somewhere where you don't have to
Speaker 2: play right away, you have a good offensive line coach,
Speaker 2: a good offensive line room with multiple guys that you
Speaker 2: could learn from that are at least in the ballpark
Speaker 2: of what you look like, you know, and maybe how
Speaker 2: you would play a little bit, you know, at least
Speaker 2: to some degree. So yeah, that'd be a great fit,
Speaker 2: you know, I think for mims to develop and get
Speaker 2: the most out of them.
Speaker 1: Let's circle back to your number two tackle, Olufashinu from
Speaker 1: Penn State six six ' three twelve, the left tackle
Speaker 1: for the Nitney Lions. Probably not going to be there
Speaker 1: at number eighteen for the Bengals, but if he somehow was,
Speaker 1: what do you think of that fit playing right tackle
Speaker 1: in Cincinnati since Orlando Brown Junior is pretty much guaranteed
Speaker 1: to be the left tackle for the next three years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be a little bit more peculiar of
Speaker 2: a fit, but I guess if you dropped it, the
Speaker 2: value would be great and you'd have to do it
Speaker 2: in some sense if you're thinking about memes, you know,
Speaker 2: so it's just he's ready to go right now. So
Speaker 2: you know, having a guy like that on the bench,
Speaker 2: you know, would be you know, kind of weird, but
Speaker 2: but yeah, I mean the value would be great. And
Speaker 2: for Shan who I think first and foremost, it's his
Speaker 2: ability as a pass protector. You know, when he was
Speaker 2: a nineteen year old sophomore last year. You know, he
Speaker 2: turned twenty in season, but he was nineteen years old.
Speaker 2: I remember watching him for the first time and right away,
Speaker 2: you know, wow, like this guy. There's something special about
Speaker 2: him in terms of how he looks, you know, in
Speaker 2: terms of measurable's physical traits, and then how he moves
Speaker 2: in past protection in particular, he's I would say, a
Speaker 2: pretty significantly better pass protector than run blocker, although that
Speaker 2: did kind of even out late this season. You saw
Speaker 2: some some glimmers there of more as a run blocker,
Speaker 2: which was nice to see. But he's definitely a guy
Speaker 2: who wins with his past protection ability. He's he's strong,
Speaker 2: uh and just you know, long, and just his movement
Speaker 2: skills in past protection just sort of has an uncanny
Speaker 2: ability to mirror guys that is I think pretty special
Speaker 2: and the best football is in front of him. He
Speaker 2: has twenty twenty one starts. He's pretty inexperienced as well,
Speaker 2: you know, not like Mems, but he hasn't played a
Speaker 2: whole lot of football yet and I still think he
Speaker 2: has a lot of a room to improve. He he
Speaker 2: reminds me he's in kind of that similar vein as
Speaker 2: like a Ryan Clady to brickish Off Ferguson, you know,
Speaker 2: those kind of guys who are past protectors first. So
Speaker 2: that that's kind of what I see with him, and
Speaker 2: I you know, I think he's a really quality prospect.
Speaker 2: And like Alton, like Latham and Mems and Guidon and
Speaker 2: all these guys, they're very young. This is a very
Speaker 2: young class at least that top five to six. You know,
Speaker 2: they're all twenty one years old. So I mean that
Speaker 2: that's a big part of why this tackle class so
Speaker 2: alluring is because these guys are all so young. So yeah,
Speaker 2: that's another part of it.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned Tyler Geyiton from Oklahoma. His name pops
Speaker 1: up on First Round MOX along with some others. Kingsley
Speaker 1: Suamataea from Byu Jordan, Morgan from Arizona. Roger Rosengarten popped
Speaker 1: up on mel Kiper's latest mock draft as a first
Speaker 1: round pick. Today, when you look at that other crop
Speaker 1: of guys, do you think that any of them are
Speaker 1: worthy of the Bengals choosing them at number eighteen?
Speaker 2: On my personal board, I think that would be you know,
Speaker 2: a little bit of a stretch, you know. With Geyton
Speaker 2: in particular, he'd be the next guy. He's my fifth tackle.
Speaker 2: I have projected Jordan Morgan inside a guard. But Tyler Goydon,
Speaker 2: you know, I have kind of a mid you know,
Speaker 2: or so second round grade. And that's just because as
Speaker 2: opposed to Mimes, that was kind of the conversation, you know,
Speaker 2: for me at least, and even Sue Matia is splitting
Speaker 2: that trio up for me. I think Goton he does
Speaker 2: have some bad habits that need to get ironed out,
Speaker 2: and he is very inexperienced as well, so that, you know,
Speaker 2: to me is the difference between him and Mims. But
Speaker 2: he's another guy who's about six ' eight, you know,
Speaker 2: close to six ' eight, uh, you know, about twenty
Speaker 2: pounds lighter than Mims, but he moves even better than Mims.
Speaker 2: You know, which understandably so being lighter, but he really
Speaker 2: is truly one of those guys when you watch him,
Speaker 2: he collides across the field and at that size, and
Speaker 2: then he also has a really strong natural anchor. You know,
Speaker 2: typically if you're if you're a really big guy who
Speaker 2: moves really well, you know, anchoring is one of those
Speaker 2: things that's kind of an achilles He will, he can
Speaker 2: do that. He can handle the bull rush, he can
Speaker 2: handle power rushes. It's just in terms of set points
Speaker 2: and not going too far, not setting short, not getting
Speaker 2: beat cleanly, you know, because he misaligns his target. That's
Speaker 2: something that's just kind of reoccurring on his film. So
Speaker 2: he needs to iron more stuff out, I would say,
Speaker 2: than a guy like Mems. But the potential is certainly there,
Speaker 2: you know, to be a potential impact starter, which is
Speaker 2: my grade. It's just a little bit lower on that spectrum.
Speaker 2: And if he goes into the right situation, I think
Speaker 2: that is going to be huge for him, a similar
Speaker 2: situation that Mims is probably going to need with kind
Speaker 2: of a veteran room where you you know, not a
Speaker 2: whole lot of pressure to be the guy right away,
Speaker 2: even if he plays right away you know, just going
Speaker 2: somewhere where he's the second or third or fourth best
Speaker 2: offensive lineman, you know, to start, I think would be
Speaker 2: great for him just to kind of ease his transition
Speaker 2: into the league. But I mean there's a lot of
Speaker 2: upside there to be to be a really good starter.
Speaker 2: He has the bones, you know, the foundation there to
Speaker 2: you know that if he won in the first round,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be surprised at all.
Speaker 1: Offensive and defensive line analyst Brandon Thorn is our guest.
Speaker 1: You can find his work at Trench Warfare dot substack
Speaker 1: dot com. The Bengals also need a defensive tackle. Two
Speaker 1: names pop up most frequently as possibilities for the number
Speaker 1: eighteen overall pick And Murphy of Texas and Johnny Newton
Speaker 1: of Illinois. Do you have a strong preference?
Speaker 2: Not really, No, I mean I haven't really studied these guys.
Speaker 2: I've definitely seen them both play a fair amount of
Speaker 2: studying other offensive linemen, and they both flash. They both
Speaker 2: look like guys who are deserving of this recognition, and
Speaker 2: you know, probably warrant you know, a mid to late
Speaker 2: first round grade. You know, I've always been a little
Speaker 2: bit partial to Newton just because I've watched him more.
Speaker 2: I think that's probably the main reason. And even going
Speaker 2: back to last year, I remember him being a guy
Speaker 2: I was like, Yeah, this is clearly a guy who's
Speaker 2: gonna start in the NFL, and then this year, you know,
Speaker 2: did nothing to change that. He actually reminds me a
Speaker 2: lot of Sheldon Richardson, who you know, I got to
Speaker 2: study a good bit throughout his career. He's retired now,
Speaker 2: but yeah, a very similar sort of player. And that's
Speaker 2: the kind of ceiling you know, that I see for
Speaker 2: him as well, which would be outstanding. That's worth the
Speaker 2: first round grade. But with him, his ability to disengage
Speaker 2: and to shed blocks and to deconstruct blocks is really
Speaker 2: what appeals to me so much. So yeah, I really
Speaker 2: like him, and I think both those guys would make
Speaker 2: sense for Cincinnati. And you know, I've been wanting Cincinnati
Speaker 2: to get better on the interior of their defensive line
Speaker 2: for a while now in terms of just more juice there.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I think both those guys would provide, you know,
Speaker 2: some jolt to that room and make it a strength,
Speaker 2: you know, which would be awesome.
Speaker 1: After losing DJ Reader, the Bengals would love to add
Speaker 1: a nose tackle type at some point they've got ten
Speaker 1: draft picks to and Andre Sweat didn't help himself with
Speaker 1: his recent DWI. How is this crop in terms of
Speaker 1: run stuffing defensive tackles as far as you know.
Speaker 2: As far as I know, I don't think it's very good,
Speaker 2: you know, in that way. I think for the most part,
Speaker 2: you're getting guys who were going to win as pass
Speaker 2: rushers first, you know, penetrating upfield type of guys who
Speaker 2: rely more on athletic ability than anything else. Some versatile
Speaker 2: pieces here for sure, but yeah, in terms of nose tackles,
Speaker 2: I just I don't think this is a very good class. Sweat,
Speaker 2: you know, being one of those guys who could fill
Speaker 2: that role. McKinley Jackson, I think from Texas A and
Speaker 2: m is another guy who's a nose tackle who's routinely
Speaker 2: graded kind of outside the first two maybe three rounds,
Speaker 2: you know. So other than that, as far as guys
Speaker 2: that I've seen, nobody really stands out in terms of
Speaker 2: nose tackles. So maybe there's another guy out there, a
Speaker 2: dark horse that I don't know about. Like I said,
Speaker 2: I'm not you know, kind of grinding through this position.
Speaker 2: Like I am offensive line, but but yeah, just you know,
Speaker 2: for my opinion, I don't think that there is really
Speaker 2: a lot of options, you know, higher end options than
Speaker 2: this class.
Speaker 1: So with ten draft picks, based on what you've been
Speaker 1: telling us on this podcast, the Bengals have the opportunity
Speaker 1: certainly to address right tackle, potentially a Ted Kerra successor
Speaker 1: at center, and maybe somebody that can compete competed left
Speaker 1: guard with Cordell Volson.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean I'm I'm a little biased,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm always partial to uh to strengthening that position.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I like to think that
Speaker 2: I can, you know, I could try to reach you know,
Speaker 2: kind of an objective level, you know, to some degree.
Speaker 2: And I think with Cincinnati, I don't have a lot invested,
Speaker 2: you know, in any team really so, but just looking
Speaker 2: at them as an outside observer, somebody does like offensive
Speaker 2: line play. I don't know that it is like a
Speaker 2: super pressing need. Honestly, Definitely, addressing one spot for sure,
Speaker 2: you know, with with a lot of draft capital first
Speaker 2: round pick would be great, But like you know, restocking
Speaker 2: the position, I don't know that it is super pressing
Speaker 2: for them considering you know, courtA Wolson, although you know, replaceable,
Speaker 2: still pretty young, you know, and you would think that
Speaker 2: he could, you know, kind of touch up some areas
Speaker 2: of his game and still just incrementally get a little
Speaker 2: bit better. So if that's your weakest link, then yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean you're probably not too pressed for resources there,
Speaker 2: although I will say that the depth, you know, is
Speaker 2: certainly in need of a boost, you know, as I
Speaker 2: would say, ninety nine percent of offensive lines are probably
Speaker 2: ninety five percent, So getting a high end kind of
Speaker 2: guy with that first round pick and then addressing it later,
Speaker 2: maybe late Day two or early Day three, you know,
Speaker 2: would probably be ideal. And I think you could get
Speaker 2: a really quality dep player at that spot. So that's
Speaker 2: probably the way I would go in, you know, for
Speaker 2: most teams, honestly, you know, getting a Day one, Day
Speaker 2: two pick and a Day three pick on the offensive
Speaker 2: line every draft, it's probably a pretty good idea.
Speaker 1: All right. A couple more topics for our guest, Brandon Thorn,
Speaker 1: the Bengals first round pick last year, was a pass
Speaker 1: rusher in Miles Murphy. How did he do in his
Speaker 1: limited playing time as a rookie?
Speaker 2: You know, I think that there were some flashes there,
Speaker 2: and you know that's well not maybe deal. You know,
Speaker 2: for for a guy where you drafted him, you'd want
Speaker 2: a little bit more consistency there. I do think that
Speaker 2: there were the flashes that you saw at Clemson as well.
Speaker 2: You know, I remember the game a few years ago
Speaker 2: against ikey Ikwan, who you know from NC State. He
Speaker 2: had a really good game against him, and just he
Speaker 2: has first round ability. It's just a matter of stringing
Speaker 2: it together, consistently, being more consistent with his technique, you know,
Speaker 2: against the run, so he could be on the field
Speaker 2: more so then he could afford himself more opportunities to
Speaker 2: rush the passer. I think it's about reps and time
Speaker 2: and earning that ability to be on the field more
Speaker 2: and once he is, you would just think especially you know,
Speaker 2: being in a good environment like Cincinnati, good coaching. You know,
Speaker 2: you have a guy like Trey Hendrickson to kind of
Speaker 2: you know, follow and emulate. I mean, this is a
Speaker 2: good situation for him to maximize his potential. So you know,
Speaker 2: I would say that it was kind of an uneven
Speaker 2: year as a rookie, but I do see maybe some
Speaker 2: of what Cincinnati sees in terms of like why you're
Speaker 2: so enticed by him because just at his size, some
Speaker 2: of his explosive ability, his ability to string moves together
Speaker 2: at times and really beat guys quickly. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: there's there's something there. It's just it's about rounding out
Speaker 2: the edges and being more consistent with technique and things
Speaker 2: like that. So the details. So yeah, I think that's
Speaker 2: kind of where he is right now.
Speaker 1: One of the things you do at Trench Warfare is
Speaker 1: really breakdown pressures. How did Trey Hendrickson fair last year.
Speaker 2: In terms of fewest snaps per pressure? He's like in
Speaker 2: the top twenty, you know, top fifteen twenty or so,
Speaker 2: right around like the Shawan, Gary, Jadavian Clowney, Alex high
Speaker 2: Smith kind of range in terms of efficiency in terms
Speaker 2: of you know, pressure wise, And then you know, I
Speaker 2: have another thing for high quality pressures per snap and
Speaker 2: he's in a similar kind of range as well. So
Speaker 2: I would say it was a good year by his standards.
Speaker 2: Maybe not his best year, but you know, I don't
Speaker 2: recall if he was dinged up a little bit too,
Speaker 2: I don't remember that, But but yeah, I just think
Speaker 2: Trey Henderson is what he is at this point. You know,
Speaker 2: and he's a really good player, a really good pass rusher.
Speaker 2: And even if my numbers in that in those couple
Speaker 2: metrics didn't totally reflect it, you know, being like a
Speaker 2: top ten guy, I think he's a top fifteen or
Speaker 2: so edge rusher in the league. And that may seem
Speaker 2: like it's a slight but I think people need to
Speaker 2: remember just how deep this position is edge rusher that is.
Speaker 2: It's just there's some great players, you know, in the
Speaker 2: top four or five, and then there's some very good
Speaker 2: guys just kind of like in the top twenty. So
Speaker 2: but what I will say about Trey last year, you
Speaker 2: know my I also grade every sack and he finished
Speaker 2: first among edge rushers, tied with TJ. Watt in my
Speaker 2: sack score metric, which measures the quality of sacks. So
Speaker 2: he had twelve high quality sacks last year, which was
Speaker 2: tied with TJ. Watt for the most of the NFL. So,
Speaker 2: you know, he really got after it as a as
Speaker 2: a pass rusher in terms of bringing down the quarterback
Speaker 2: for sacks and you know, three strip sacks and yeah,
Speaker 2: so he was kind of a monster in the sack
Speaker 2: department last year, and pressures were a little bit more,
Speaker 2: you know, top twenty ish range.
Speaker 1: Final question for Brandon Thorn. The Bengals lost their offensive
Speaker 1: coordinator Brian Callahan to the Titans as their new head coach,
Speaker 1: and that means the Cleveland Browns lost his dad, Dull
Speaker 1: Callahan as their offensive line coach. How significant is that
Speaker 1: loss for Cleveland?
Speaker 2: I think is really significant, especially because his assistant, longtime assistant,
Speaker 2: Scott Peters also left, took a head job with the Patriots.
Speaker 2: So you know, even the guy who is his understudy,
Speaker 2: who maybe could have, you know, least care read some
Speaker 2: of what Bill Callahan brought, he's gone too. So it's
Speaker 2: a total clean slate there. So yeah, I think it's
Speaker 2: a significant loss. I think Bill Callahan is really on
Speaker 2: the Mount Rushmore of offensive line coaches, if not all time,
Speaker 2: certainly within the last probably fifteen twenty years, you know,
Speaker 2: with Jeff stout linn Mike Munchek, those are probably where
Speaker 2: be the names where I would start. And so, yeah,
Speaker 2: he's he's one of the very best. He's gonna make
Speaker 2: everybody better, He's going to get the most out of everybody.
Speaker 2: His attention to detail is maybe unrivaled in the NFL.
Speaker 2: He's he's truly a master, you know, tactician, you know,
Speaker 2: and just just his his techniques and his ability to
Speaker 2: teach is tremendous. So losing that is is going to
Speaker 2: be tough, especially because Cleveland maybe going through a little
Speaker 2: bit you know of turnover with their offensive line, not
Speaker 2: at guard, but you know, maybe looking at maybe a
Speaker 2: new left tackle soon potentially, and and they have a
Speaker 2: very young one in Dwan Jones. I know Jack Conklin's
Speaker 2: coming back. So yeah, I mean, you always feel better
Speaker 2: when a Calie Bill Callahan's there and as opposed to
Speaker 2: one he's not. So you know, it's gonna be tough,
Speaker 2: you know, to see how they overcome that and you know,
Speaker 2: figure it out.
Speaker 1: Engels fans certainly hope you are right. I am a
Speaker 1: subscriber to Trench Warfare. It's the only thing like it
Speaker 1: in terms of studying offensive line play in particular. Tell
Speaker 1: folks where they can find it and what they get
Speaker 1: if they subscribe.
Speaker 2: Sure, So Trench Warfare dot substack dot com is where
Speaker 2: you can find me. You could subscribe monthly or yearly
Speaker 2: and throughout the year. I'm studying offensive and defensive line
Speaker 2: in season, watching every game every week, and you know,
Speaker 2: usually focus on one two players at a time, and
Speaker 2: then throughout the offseason I just go back and watch
Speaker 2: it again pretty much, you know, not necessarily every game,
Speaker 2: but certainly a lot of them. I make a lot
Speaker 2: of player highlight tapes throughout the year, four players, so
Speaker 2: that brings me back, you know, to kind of revisit everything,
Speaker 2: and I you know, I just try to find unique
Speaker 2: angles to look at offensive and defensive line through for
Speaker 2: my for my sub stack subscribers, and try to get
Speaker 2: a lot of players on there. I'm hopefully going to
Speaker 2: get some coaches on there soon, but yeah, just trying
Speaker 2: to shine light on the position, help educate people on
Speaker 2: the position, and just enjoy it, you know, because I
Speaker 2: think when people see the real inner workings of the
Speaker 2: position and what it looks like being executed at the
Speaker 2: highest level through video, especially, then they really start to
Speaker 2: appreciate it. It's easy to appreciate offensive line when you're
Speaker 2: being shown it kind of in the right context. So
Speaker 2: just try to do that. And yeah, I mean, thankfully,
Speaker 2: you know, a decent amount of people were interested in that,
Speaker 2: and I just try to serve them as best I can. Well.
Speaker 1: Bengals fans are fixated on the offensive linemen in this draft.
Speaker 1: I know they've been looking to learn more about each
Speaker 1: of these guys, and I really appreciate your expertise and
Speaker 1: I look forward to which guys the Bengals come away
Speaker 1: with during that three day stretch. Brandon, thank you very much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Dan, thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 1: More on the draft in a moment, but first, a
Speaker 1: quick reminder that the Bengals Booth Podcast is brought to
Speaker 1: you by pay Corps, proud to be the Bengals official
Speaker 1: HR software provider, by Alta Fiber future proof fiber Internet
Speaker 1: designed to elevate your home, business, and community to a
Speaker 1: new level, and by Kettering Health the best care for
Speaker 1: the best fans. Kettering Health is the official healthcare provider
Speaker 1: of the Bengals. Last week on this podcast, I did
Speaker 1: my first three round Bengals mock draft. That's a total
Speaker 1: of four picks and Cincinnati has an extra pick. In
Speaker 1: the third round. I chose Washington offensive lineman Troy Fatutanu
Speaker 1: in round one, Florida State defensive tackle Brandon Fisk in
Speaker 1: round two, North Carolina wide receiver Devontes Walker with my
Speaker 1: first third round pick, and Florida State cornerback Bernardo Green
Speaker 1: with my second third round pick. Now time for Dan's
Speaker 1: Draft two point zero, and I'm going to use the
Speaker 1: Pro Football Network simulator instead of the Pro Football Focus
Speaker 1: version this time since it's likely to give me different choices.
Speaker 1: Sure enough, Troy fa Utanu is not even an option
Speaker 1: this time around. He was one of four offensive linemen
Speaker 1: taken before the Bengals were on the clock. Joe Alt
Speaker 1: went sixth, Olufashanu seventh, fa Utanu thirteenth, and Talisi Fuaga sixteenth.
Speaker 1: By the way, brock Bowers was gone as well. He
Speaker 1: went fifteenth to the Colts. But that left me with
Speaker 1: great options, including offensive tackles JC Latham and a Marius Mims,
Speaker 1: defensive tackles Byron Murphy and Johnny Newton, and LSU wide
Speaker 1: receiver Brian Thomas. I chose Latham the thirteen overall pick
Speaker 1: in the draft, according to the Athletics Dane Brugler, and
Speaker 1: the Bengals starting right tackle for many years to come.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be right away, but the Alabama
Speaker 1: Giant can compete with Trent Brown for the spot this year.
Speaker 1: If the veteran wins the job, Latham is his backup,
Speaker 1: and keep in mind that Trent Brown has missed at
Speaker 1: least five games due to injury in four of the
Speaker 1: last five years, so there's a decent chance that his
Speaker 1: backup will be needed. And if Orlando Brown had to
Speaker 1: miss any time, Trent Brown can move to left tackle
Speaker 1: and Latham can step in on the right side. The
Speaker 1: Bengals would be thrilled if Latham is still there at
Speaker 1: number eighteen in the second round with pick number forty nine. Overall,
Speaker 1: there are some good defensive tackles available, including Rooke or
Speaker 1: Row row Row of Clemson, Michael Hall of Ohio State,
Speaker 1: Chris Jenkins of Michigan, and last week's second round selection
Speaker 1: Brandon Fisk. But I went in a different direction this
Speaker 1: time and chose wide receiver Melachi Corley of Western Kentucky.
Speaker 1: He's a sturdy slot receiver who would immediately replace Tyler
Speaker 1: Boyd in the starting lineup and give the Bengals a
Speaker 1: great yards after catch threat. His nickname at Western Kentucky
Speaker 1: was Yack King. He's not a speedster. Corley ran a
Speaker 1: four five six forty at his pro day, but he's
Speaker 1: so dangerous with the ball in his hands that he's
Speaker 1: been compared to Deebo Samuel. Last year, the Bengals didn't
Speaker 1: go offense until the fourth round. This year, I'm not
Speaker 1: waiting that long to add a weapon. Taking Corley in
Speaker 1: round two with the first of my third round picks,
Speaker 1: I was able to take one of the defensive tackles
Speaker 1: that I was thinking about in the second round, Michigan's
Speaker 1: Chris Jenkins. Frankly, I couldn't believe he was still there
Speaker 1: at number eighty overall. He's number thirty six on Brugler's
Speaker 1: Big Board. Was a team captain for the National Chains
Speaker 1: and has a great nickname, the Mutant. His dad, Chris Senior,
Speaker 1: was a four time Pro Bowl defensive lineman, and while
Speaker 1: Chris Junior is about sixty pounds lighter than his dad
Speaker 1: at two ninety nine, he'll fit in perfectly in the
Speaker 1: Bengals defensive tackle rotation. For my fourth and final pick
Speaker 1: in the first three rounds, I was almost able to
Speaker 1: take cornerback Bernardo Green again, but he went ninety sixth overall,
Speaker 1: one pick before the Bengals were on the clock. Fortunately,
Speaker 1: one of my favorite players in the draft was still available.
Speaker 1: Another member of Michigan's National championship defense slot corner Mikey Sainrastill.
Speaker 1: Saint Rastill is Mike Hilton two point zero. He's undersized
Speaker 1: at five to nine and roughly one hundred eighty pounds,
Speaker 1: but every time I watched a Michigan game last year,
Speaker 1: he was around the ball making big plays. After playing
Speaker 1: wide receiver for his first three seasons, Saintristill moved a
Speaker 1: defense two years ago and last year had six interceptions,
Speaker 1: two forced bumbles, and three interception returns of more than
Speaker 1: seventy yards. He's a two time team captain with experience
Speaker 1: at inside and outside corner and also on special teams.
Speaker 1: He's number forty three overall on the Brugler Big Board,
Speaker 1: so landing him with a ninety seventh pick would represent
Speaker 1: exceptional value. Unlike the PFF simulator, the Pro Football Network
Speaker 1: version doesn't give you a grade, But if the Bengals
Speaker 1: get Latham, Corley, Jenkins and saint Ristill, I can't imagine
Speaker 1: it would be anything other than an A plus. That's
Speaker 1: going to do it for this episode of the Bengals
Speaker 1: Booth podcast, brought to you by pay Corps, proud to
Speaker 1: be the Bengals official HR software provider by Alta fiber
Speaker 1: future proof fiber Internet designed to elevate your home, business
Speaker 1: and community to a new level and by Kettering Health
Speaker 1: the best care for the best fans. Kettering Health is
Speaker 1: the official healthcare provider of the Bengals. If you haven't
Speaker 1: done so already, please subscribe to this podcast and if
Speaker 1: you have a minute, give it a rating or share
Speaker 1: a comment that helps more Bengals fans find us. I'm
Speaker 1: Dan Hord and thanks for listening to the Bengals Booth podcast.