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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want

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Speaker 3: you to know. This is gonna be a wild ride.

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Speaker 3: This will probably end up being a three episode series.

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Speaker 3: Maybe we get into it this way to the degree

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Speaker 3: that we're comfortable answering. Have any of us donated to

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Speaker 3: political parties?

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Speaker 4: I have not.

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Speaker 2: When I was a young man. I did this once,

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Speaker 2: very young man, because as idealistic and I believe that

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Speaker 2: my money would help someone somewhere and I could change

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Speaker 2: things just by donating ten dollars, I would do it.

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Speaker 3: The first part, your money did help someone somewhere.

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Speaker 5: For the price of a cup of coffee a day,

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Speaker 5: you two could have democracy.

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Speaker 3: And I used to be won't get into it, but yeah,

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Speaker 3: I used to do some political activity in more idealistic

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Speaker 3: days as well. I mean for a lot of us

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Speaker 3: right now. If you're talking about financial donation, the answer

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Speaker 3: is no, what do you mean? Partially because of cynicism,

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Speaker 3: right and then partially due to the fact that it's

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Speaker 3: very tough and challenging economy right now. But donation doesn't

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Speaker 3: have to be just financial. People donate their time, their expertise,

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Speaker 3: their ideas. Some people fly solo in this regard. You know,

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Speaker 3: you could say that a single protester in a small

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Speaker 3: town is making a political donation through their time right

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Speaker 3: and their activism. But most most people, I think, tend

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Speaker 3: to partner up with pre existing groups. And this is

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Speaker 3: where we get to something really interesting. A fellow conspiracy

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Speaker 3: realist we'll call him Noah, reached out to us a

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Speaker 3: while back and hipped us to something called the Atlas Network.

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Speaker 3: Had you guys heard of this before before Noah hyptos

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Speaker 3: do it?

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Speaker 5: I want to say it came up in a podcast

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Speaker 5: that I was listening to, but I can't quite remember

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Speaker 5: the details.

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Speaker 2: I was unaware of it, and when Noah first I

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Speaker 2: think it was a voicemail that Noah sent in. When

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Speaker 2: when I first heard of it, I really thought it

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Speaker 2: was something I and Rand associatd.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, we have to say that at the top

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Speaker 3: to be fair. Atlas Network themselves says Nope, not named

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Speaker 3: after Atlas Shrugged. But as we were talking about a

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Speaker 3: little off air, we have questions on that one. And

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Speaker 3: I also had I was not aware of Atlas Network

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Speaker 3: before he reached out. Noah, and we love learning things,

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Speaker 3: especially disturbing things. But what is Atlas Network exactly? Why

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Speaker 3: do they seem in the shadows? Well, Noah, some would

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Speaker 3: say they like it that way. Let's get into it.

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Speaker 3: After a word from our sponsor, here are the facts.

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Speaker 3: Our story begins with an Englishman named Sir Anthony George

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Speaker 3: Anson Fisher or A.

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Speaker 2: Gaff Herolds of Freedom.

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Speaker 4: Always starts with an Englishman.

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Speaker 3: This kind of stuff. Yeah, not the profile, but I

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Speaker 3: think you're right, nol a Gaff. Let's learn about him.

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Speaker 3: He was born into a wealthy family. This isn't a

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Speaker 3: coming up from the mud story. But he made good

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Speaker 3: on his socioeconomic opportunities. He's a Royal Air Force veteran.

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Speaker 3: He graduated the top schools of his day. He became

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Speaker 3: a phenomenally successful chicken businessman, similar to us Fring. Some

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Speaker 3: might argue.

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Speaker 5: Similar to Rick Ross with all his chickens that go

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Speaker 5: quack quack quack.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Yes, similar to Rick Ross, who has been

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Speaker 3: mentioned pretty often on this show. We know Agaff. We

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Speaker 3: know Sir Fisher was galvanized and inspired during the horrors

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Speaker 3: he experienced in World War II, including allegedly witnessing the

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Speaker 3: death of his own brother who was also serving. This

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Speaker 3: put him on a lifelong ideological mission and his idea.

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Speaker 3: His thesis was this, if I can help make Earth

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Speaker 3: a more economically free, more prosperous place, then I can

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Speaker 3: help create a world without war.

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Speaker 2: Sounds really great. And in World War Two he was

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Speaker 2: he was an RAF pilot who actually was He took

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Speaker 2: part in the Battle of Britain, so one of the

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Speaker 2: one of the biggest things that happened in World War Two,

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Speaker 2: at least from you know, a British perspective, you can

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Speaker 2: imagine how this guy was looked up to. And he

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Speaker 2: was an entrepreneur. He was big in the chicken business,

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Speaker 2: as we're saying. If you want to learn more about that, guys,

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Speaker 2: I would send you on over to Atlas Network's own

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Speaker 2: YouTube channel, where in twenty seventeen, a gentleman named Daniel Hannan,

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Speaker 2: who we can talk about more if we want to.

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Speaker 2: But this guy gave a Toast to Freedom wherein he

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Speaker 2: talks specifically about the chicken business and that mister Fisher,

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Speaker 2: how mister Fisher brought chickens to the masses.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So we'll jump around in time a little bit, right. So,

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Speaker 3: originally Agath wants to go into politics. It makes sense.

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Speaker 3: He's a war hero, he's got a high level academic

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Speaker 3: bona fides, and he is very worried. He's really unhappy

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Speaker 3: with the post World War two government of the UK,

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Speaker 3: the labor government in particular, saying, you guys are doing

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Speaker 3: your nationalizing industry. You're doing central economic planning, which is

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Speaker 3: pretty communist to me. I think you're making a welfare

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Speaker 3: state and I think it's going to lead to totalitarianism.

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Speaker 3: And I've got to find some people. He did the

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Speaker 3: smartest thing you can do. He said, I've got to

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Speaker 3: find some people who know more than me. I've got

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Speaker 3: to find some experts. And he gets inspired by the

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Speaker 3: granddaddy of neoliberalism, Friedrich Hayek, the author of a book

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Speaker 3: called The Road to Serfdom, and Hyak doesn't just immediately

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Speaker 3: paddle on him. Instead, he says, don't waste your time

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Speaker 3: in politics, dude.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he basically said, waste your time on the things

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Speaker 2: that influence politics.

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Speaker 4: Right, yeah, yeah, the idea.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he said, think tanks are the best way to

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Speaker 3: create real political change. And Fisher hop too. We're going

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Speaker 3: to throw a lot of very vague organization names at

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Speaker 3: you and this one, folks just will let it wash

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Speaker 3: over us because they're all pretty samy sounding. He visits

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Speaker 3: something in the States called the Foundation for Economic Education,

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Speaker 3: pretty vague, and that's where he learns about the poultry business,

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Speaker 3: about battery chicken raising. And then when he goes back

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Speaker 3: to England, he starts this outfit Bucksted Chickens.

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Speaker 5: Is that real Bucks died And it's amazing. It's like

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Speaker 5: the ex is like an edgy stand in for.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the company that makes him a millionaire

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Speaker 3: over time. And he was already he already had family money.

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Speaker 3: And he sticks to his guns. You know, he doesn't

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Speaker 3: just become a quiet guy who shows up in a

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Speaker 3: fundraiser once a year. He invests his personal profits in

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Speaker 3: his ideology and he starts creating stuff.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that chicken money can go a long way to

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Speaker 5: creating stuff, and some of that stuff included the Institute

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Speaker 5: of Economic Affairs, which was in staunch opposition to the

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Speaker 5: current economic concepts and policies of the time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, nailed it.

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Speaker 2: Just for a little more context on the chicken thing there, guys,

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Speaker 2: I didn't realize that when we did our chicken episode,

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Speaker 2: this guy is credited, at least within the mythos of

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Speaker 2: the Atlas Network for essentially creating and or revolutionizing the

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Speaker 2: broiler chicken business in the United Kingdom or in Britain.

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Speaker 2: So it you know, you can imagine how much money

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Speaker 2: is in there. Right When we talked about the number

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Speaker 2: of chickens that are produced and eaten across the world,

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Speaker 2: it was a big deal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Factory farming, yes, the S word we're using. Yes,

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Speaker 3: he's a factory farming founder and popularized it indeed throughout Europe.

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Speaker 3: Over the decades. He and his affiliates involved in these

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Speaker 3: think tanks and these ideological campaigns. They say, look one off,

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Speaker 3: think tanks aren't enough, we need something bigger, and they

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Speaker 3: keep creating stuff. They created something called the International Institute

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Speaker 3: for Economic Research in nineteen seventy one, which was later

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Speaker 3: renamed the International Policy Network or IPN, so all in all,

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Speaker 3: without getting two into the weeds, he helped create a

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Speaker 3: Baker's dozen or so of related organizations that had the

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Speaker 3: same They had different focuses, but they had the same

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Speaker 3: ideological push at their core, and they all sounded kind

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Speaker 3: of samey.

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Speaker 5: And these aren't the same as lobbying groups, right, I mean, like,

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Speaker 5: this is a different way of influencing policy.

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Speaker 2: You can do a lot with a think tank. I

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Speaker 2: would just say, yeah.

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Speaker 3: You can do lobbying as part of it, kind of

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Speaker 3: the way that a car also has an air conditioning unit,

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Speaker 3: but it's it's still a car. So they write a

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Speaker 3: lot of white papers, they do a lot of networking,

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Speaker 3: and they do a lot of quiet funding. And the

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Speaker 3: way that they succeed with this quiet funding. The second

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Speaker 3: revolution that Fisher leads after factory farming of chickens, is

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Speaker 3: the idea of a meta think tank, I think tank

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Speaker 3: that births other organizations and supports them.

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Speaker 2: An incubator if you will, there you go, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Chicken metaphors, Yeah, there we go.

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Speaker 3: I like it. So, after all these iterations of these

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Speaker 3: vaguely named groups, IPN leads to the creation of the

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Speaker 3: Atlas Network in nineteen eighty one, and it originally is

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Speaker 3: meant to bring all of Fisher's previous one off things together,

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Speaker 3: sort of like how you had individual superhero movies and

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Speaker 3: then you had the Avengers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're all five oh one c three organizations. Guys.

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Speaker 2: That means tax free baby.

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Speaker 3: Oh take that religion, But yeah, they are. They are,

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Speaker 3: especially Atlas because Atlas is US based. Fisher would later

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Speaker 3: move to the States. It was originally called the Atlas

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Speaker 3: Economic Research Foundation. Thank goodness they change the name because

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Speaker 3: just hearing foundation and Economic over and over again. I

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Speaker 3: don't know about you, guys, been the research for this.

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Speaker 3: My eyes started to glaze over. It's like, how are

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Speaker 3: we supposed to tell the difference between all of these

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Speaker 3: things that are just a word salad of the same

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Speaker 3: five words.

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Speaker 4: It does do your head, and god, it's true.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking up just really quickly. Let's even let's do

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Speaker 2: it right now. We're going to get in this further.

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Speaker 2: But if I'm just going to go off of the

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Speaker 2: organizations that are currently on the atlasnetwork dot org website,

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Speaker 2: Foundation for Economic Freedom, Institute for Democracy and Economic Affairs,

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Speaker 2: Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, African Students for Liberty

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Speaker 2: Ideas Beyond Borders. It's just like what it just kind

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Speaker 2: of okay.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And after this, by the way, folks, after we

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Speaker 3: get through this series, we do want you to know

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Speaker 3: that you have the option on Atlas's website to become

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Speaker 3: a partner yourself.

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Speaker 2: And that's not just to become a member, right.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, if you come up with your own vague

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Speaker 3: sounding organization and you pitch it and it's in the

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Speaker 3: part of the world that they're interested in, like maybe

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Speaker 3: or pretty much all of Latin America, definitely East Africa,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean, or just make them a pitch, like, hey,

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Speaker 3: what do you guys know about Tuvalu?

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Speaker 2: You know, they've got a couple of bulleted points there

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Speaker 2: that just say exactly what you need to do and

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Speaker 2: you might get some of that grant money.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the wallet will open. So this is why you

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Speaker 3: hear people calling Atlas a think tank that creates think tanks.

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Speaker 3: That's pretty meta. At liass Network itself, we spend a

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Speaker 3: lot of the time on their website, by the way, guys,

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Speaker 3: Atlas Network describes itself as quote a nonprofit that aims

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Speaker 3: to secure the right to economic and personal freedom for

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Speaker 3: all individuals.

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Speaker 5: Dope, ms fine, Yeah, I like freedom.

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Speaker 4: I like the individual.

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Speaker 3: Right right, we like surviving in an economy. Exactly. It's

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Speaker 3: as if you heard of a charity that said, we're

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Speaker 3: trying to stop people from kicking puppies, you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean? Like, are you pro animal torture? Are you

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Speaker 3: anti freedom? My guy?

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Speaker 2: So imagine you put out this call, right or this

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Speaker 2: you you've created this thing, right, you got what do

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Speaker 2: we say? A handful of a dozen organizations that make

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Speaker 2: up this version of Atlas network. And then they want

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Speaker 2: to bring more, they want to start more. Have they

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Speaker 2: been pretty yes?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, yes, seriously, what is it?

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Speaker 5: It isn't it on par with McDonald's in terms of

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Speaker 5: like how broad their reach is?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so McDonald's operates in around one hundred and nineteen countries.

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Speaker 3: This is not the perfect analogy. It should have been

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Speaker 3: a chicken restaurant. But Atlas has expanded, including everything the

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Speaker 3: Koch brothers do and all these other organizations. So it

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Speaker 3: went from like twelve ish think tanks to six hundred

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Speaker 3: various things like think tanks, well less than six hundred.

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Speaker 2: Shout out to the Cato Institute and the Koch Brothers and.

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Speaker 3: The Heritage Foundation shout out to I mean, just picture it.

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Speaker 3: They're probably in the club.

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Speaker 5: And I mean, at the end of the day, isn't

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Speaker 5: it somewhat apolitical or at least politics agnostic. Like it's

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Speaker 5: not like they're going for a particular you know, left

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Speaker 5: or right lean. It's more of like an overall goal

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Speaker 5: they're trying to achieve, right, Yeah, I think that's that's

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Speaker 5: the way to put it. Yeah, because critics will tell

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Speaker 5: you that Atlas is a shadowy network of right wing

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Speaker 5: think tanks. But Atlas itself, they say, we are nonpartisan, right,

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Speaker 5: We're pushing these ideas of economic freedom and personal freedom,

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Speaker 5: which should be something anybody can get behind. Well, And

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Speaker 5: whether or not that's true or not, it does kind

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Speaker 5: of call attention to the idea that like, sometimes whether

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Speaker 5: you're on the left or the right, at a certain

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Speaker 5: level of government, it all becomes about kind of the

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Speaker 5: same thing.

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Speaker 3: Fingers on a hand, you know what I mean. They

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Speaker 3: look separate until you see the palm. But yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: what we call neoliberal ideology, which here in the US

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Speaker 3: both big political parties are very much a fan of

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Speaker 3: the idea that free markets and globalism will ultimately be

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Speaker 3: the tide that carries all vessels.

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Speaker 2: For sure, And definitely check out the Economic Policy Institute

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Speaker 2: or the Roosevelt Institute or any of the other many

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Speaker 2: think tanks that exist on the opposite side of the

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Speaker 2: spectrum than the Heritage Foundation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, because these different organizations, their goals don't

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Speaker 3: always one hundred percent a line, but they team up

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Speaker 3: on specific stuff that they want to see changed. So

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Speaker 3: back to our restaurant analogy. If Atlas was in the

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Speaker 3: restaurant business, they wouldn't be like McDonald's making in individual stores. Instead,

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Speaker 3: they would make entire restaurant brands, and unless you were

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Speaker 3: very careful, you would never know how deeply these different

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Speaker 3: restaurants are all connected.

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Speaker 2: And as we found with research for this episode, it

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Speaker 2: makes searching for specifics and details about actions really difficult

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Speaker 2: because if you imagine the search terms that you'd have

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Speaker 2: to put in to successfully track down one of the

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Speaker 2: six hundred organizations that are a part of this group,

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Speaker 2: right then tracking, you know, tracking it and finding the

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Speaker 2: right information becomes extremely difficult. When the information is this busy.

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Speaker 5: It's not entirely dissimilar from the way, like you know,

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Speaker 5: corporations have all kinds of little sub organizations, and there

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Speaker 5: are these like org charts that kind of spiderweb their

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Speaker 5: way out to the point where it can get really convoluted,

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Speaker 5: like ge you know, like the whole thirty Rock scenario.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we know that part of this obfuscation seems purposeful,

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Speaker 3: and then another part of it is just a function

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Speaker 3: of how many things these other organizations with very similar

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Speaker 3: names do any given day. So luckily we were able

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Speaker 3: to well we'll get into it, but we looked at

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Speaker 3: some specific cases of controversies. They can help you trace

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Speaker 3: the line of conspiracy. We'll look at some larger conspiracies.

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Speaker 3: We'll also see we'll see things that are very clearly

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Speaker 3: one off front groups as well, which are a little

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Speaker 3: easier to trace.

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Speaker 2: And then we'll do an entire episode on the National

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Speaker 2: Endowment for Demarcower.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: Our third episode is on our own boys. Yeah, the

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Speaker 3: second CIA or the CIA sidekick, whichever term you'd like.

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Speaker 3: So what we're saying is Atlas is this hidden kaiju

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Speaker 3: of neoliberal ideology. Neoliberalism again, socioeconomic theory that says free

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Speaker 3: market capitalism is the holy grail. Almost said holy ghosts,

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Speaker 3: but it's gonna save everything. It's gonna save the world

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Speaker 3: if we just free these gosh darn markets, if we.

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Speaker 2: Individual freedom allowed through whatever mechanisms the government ends up

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Speaker 2: actually doing.

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Speaker 3: And hey, they mean the government should have less of

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Speaker 3: a say in that, you know, right, So there's nothing

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Speaker 3: wrong with people getting their views out there. That's one

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Speaker 3: beautiful thing about democracy when it works. Everybody gets a

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Speaker 3: voice in the room, even if not everyone agrees, and yes,

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Speaker 3: even if some people say very stupid things, they get

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Speaker 3: to do that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, and ultimately this is an exercise in looking at

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Speaker 2: a group of people that are extremely effective at it.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean the Atlas. Atlas is like a

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Speaker 3: training camp. It's it's ideologically similar to the School of

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Speaker 3: the Americas in a way because they take people and

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Speaker 3: they give them expertise, networking, financial support and grants for

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Speaker 3: all sorts of conservative groups or free market initiatives or

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Speaker 3: you know, libertarian thing tanks through the world. Originally they

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Speaker 3: just wanted to focus on Fisher's first organizations, but now,

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Speaker 3: as we said, they've expanded. They're forty four years old

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Speaker 3: and as of twenty twenty three, the organization had an

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Speaker 3: annual revenue of twenty eight point eight million dollars that

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Speaker 3: we know about. And that's where I think we kind

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Speaker 3: of have to pause and spend a little bit of time,

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Speaker 3: because doesn't that number seem low?

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Speaker 2: I was thinking of some low Yes, well, with these groups,

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Speaker 2: this is revenue, right, And maybe I'm wrong here, but

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Speaker 2: I imagine there's a ton of investment money that is

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Speaker 2: funneled through these things that grows and grows and grows

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Speaker 2: so that they can give out things like the Templeton

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Speaker 2: Freedom Awards, where sure every year they give out like

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Speaker 2: four hundred and fifty thousand dollars, you know, in these

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Speaker 2: various grants and things like that, on top of all

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Speaker 2: the other grants that they end up giving out. And

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Speaker 2: I imagine the way this functions is you've got rolling

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Speaker 2: investment funds that just build and build and build, and

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Speaker 2: then that's the money that actually ends up being operational,

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Speaker 2: or at least for the most part.

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Speaker 5: Maybe, so that's not transparent, like we don't see those.

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Speaker 3: It's much more difficult too, depending on the country. There

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Speaker 3: are different laws about how their financials have to be publicized,

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Speaker 3: and it's more murky in some places than it is

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Speaker 3: in others. But I think what we are all on

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Speaker 3: the same page about is that the official, seemingly small

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Speaker 3: number for the revenue is just a very tiny facet

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Speaker 3: of a very large iceberg because it's not counting money

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Speaker 3: that moves in other ways. It's kind of like how

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Speaker 3: the Coca Cola company. Actually it's an empire, yes, but

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Speaker 3: most of its employees are going to be subcontracted through

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Speaker 3: some other thing, right, There are actually very few full

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Speaker 3: time Coca Cola employees. When you look at the size

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Speaker 3: of the organization.

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Speaker 2: And remember it's a nonprofit organization, right, so it is

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Speaker 2: not profit driven, is functioning to fuel itself and to

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Speaker 2: perhaps give out money for things. It's just it's murky.

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Speaker 3: It's murky on purpose by design, a clever design. And

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Speaker 3: the revenue to that point is most of the revenue

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Speaker 3: goes to their overhead cost as an organization, So on

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Speaker 3: paper it makes sense for a five oh one C three.

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Speaker 3: They're not making a ton of money for Atlas as Atlas,

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Speaker 3: but they are managing and moving a lot more money,

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Speaker 3: and that's the money that gets hidden often.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's not about profit guys, it's about hearts

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Speaker 2: and minds.

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Speaker 3: On their website, it's not about financial profit.

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Speaker 5: They actually say hearts and minds, yes, yes, they love it.

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Speaker 3: They're nuts for it. They're like that SNL cowbell sketch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And legislation, actionable legislation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the real profit. But still there's no denying

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Speaker 3: they've been successful. Jolly good tickety boo. Right, this is British.

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Speaker 2: Ultra tickety boo Pip pip.

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Speaker 3: Double plus good. Yes, But critics disagree because, depending upon

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Speaker 3: whom you ask, this powerful obscure group is responsible for

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Speaker 3: all sorts of shenanigans that are at the very least controversial,

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Speaker 3: things like fueling economic chaos, climate change, conspiracies, overthrowing government,

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Speaker 3: helping to overthrow governments, making sure people ignore the dangers

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Speaker 3: of smoking, all kinds of stuff. So what the heck

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Speaker 3: is going on? Maybe we pause for a word from

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Speaker 3: our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy. The conspiracy is true.

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Speaker 3: It is absolutely true. We're not trying to ruffle any feathers.

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Speaker 3: We know these things could be sensitive, but it is true.

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Speaker 2: What's the conspiracy?

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Speaker 3: It's okay, it's true. Caveat asterisk. It's true in that

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Speaker 3: Atlas is often associated with controversial things. The supporters will

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Speaker 3: say no, there's not a conspiracy afoot. You can find

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Speaker 3: all the answers that you want. You just have to

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Speaker 3: ask the right questions. We're not No one's trying to

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Speaker 3: cover anything up. We're just like ALEC or any number

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Speaker 3: of other similar organizations that are often in our network.

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Speaker 3: We talk to politicians right like you were saying. No,

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Speaker 3: We lobby, we write policy papers, we talked to the media.

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Speaker 3: We put out our handpicked pundits to push for our cause.

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Speaker 3: We draft legislation and policy. We're a helpful force.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Remember that guy I mentioned, Daniel Hannan m M.

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Speaker 2: Do we know who he is? Like? Does that name

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Speaker 2: ring true to anybody out there? This is this guy

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Speaker 2: was a member of Parliament in the UK and he

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Speaker 2: was one of the loudest voices for Can we guess

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Speaker 2: the big thing he was pushing for Brexit?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's unfair that I'm pretending to.

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Speaker 2: Get Well, that's fine, but this guy is ah. He

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Speaker 2: is a member of let's say the Atlas network. If

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Speaker 2: he had a pin, it would be on his lapel.

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Speaker 2: As he gave a speech in twenty seventeen that you

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Speaker 2: watch the YouTube video for and you know when you

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Speaker 2: see that somebody like that is in the upper echelons

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Speaker 2: of power and still a member of this thing. You

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Speaker 2: can see that this type of legislation and movement that

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Speaker 2: we're talking about is actually happening and not you know,

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Speaker 2: not just at the local grassroots levels.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, one hundred percent. That's an excellent observation. I mean,

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Speaker 3: Atlas is one of the top think tanks in all

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Speaker 3: of the United States, and it has a lot of

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Speaker 3: weight to swing as political capital and connections to burn. Right,

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Speaker 3: no one's denying that. But let's so we had to

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Speaker 3: look into how this power structure works in practice some

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Speaker 3: of the con traversies. This will help us learn why

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Speaker 3: at least the critics are so concerned. Let's start with

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Speaker 3: big Tobacco, super duper deep with Atlas. They love it.

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Speaker 3: Smoke them if you got them right.

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Speaker 5: They have had, according to Tobacco Statistics dot org, a

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Speaker 5: longstanding funding relationship with the tobacco industry.

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Speaker 4: Trade groups like British.

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Speaker 5: American Tobacco, Japan Tobacco International, Altria and Philip Morris International

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Speaker 5: have all contributed heaps of money in support of Atlas Partners.

438
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 2: For agen decades.

439
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 3: Atlas Partners, right, uh huh, so not directly to our

440
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 3: buddies at the network. But the Atlas board members, this

441
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 3: is where these kind of organizations get really fascinating. The

442
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 3: Atlas board members often come straight up from private industries

443
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 3: that private industries that share, that share the goals, right,

444
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 3: or that already employ Atlas, And it's become such a

445
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 3: vent diagram, especially when you throw in politics.

446
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 4: Right.

447
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 3: We talked about the revolving door of private and public

448
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 3: service that happens here as well. There's one example be

449
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 3: jose Renee Skull. He's an Atlas board member, but before

450
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 3: he was an Atlas board member, he was a Philip

451
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 3: Morris man in South America and Asia before he officially

452
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 3: joined up with Atlas, and he was working with them

453
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,479
Speaker 3: hand in glove well before officially joining. And he had

454
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 3: a quote. I don't think you put it in here,

455
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 3: but he had a quote where he said he described

456
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 3: his time in Asia by saying, essentially, it was my

457
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 3: job to make the air rain Marlborough's Now that makes sense,

458
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 3: I mean it's his job. Yeah, he's meat points for honesty.

459
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 4: Right.

460
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 2: What's that company cover the world?

461
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 4: Yeah?

462
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 3: Sherwin Williams. Yeah, God, what a sinister logo.

463
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 2: But with Marboro.

464
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 3: But with Marlborough's the relationship is so deep and it's

465
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 3: not a PSA campaign about the dangers of tobacco. That's

466
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 3: not what they're paying at Lists to do. Instead, let's

467
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 3: go to an example from the University of Baths Tobacco

468
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 3: Tactics in twenty twenty, they noted the following.

469
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 5: In a nineteen eighty eight letter to Philip Morris, Atlas

470
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 5: then CEO Alejandro Chauffain explained, it uses industry donations to

471
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 5: select and fund individuals or organizations to help establish them

472
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 5: as a legitimate organization that can spread ideas about and

473
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 5: these are individual rights again, limited government.

474
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 4: And free enterprise. So quite literally, like you.

475
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 5: Said, Ben, smoke them if you got them, this is

476
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 5: a right.

477
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 2: So this is the Atlas CEO talking to Philip Morris

478
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: the company and explaining what Atlas does with the money.

479
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, they say, we find individuals, thought leaders or influencers

480
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 3: we would call them now and or organizations, and we

481
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 3: helped train them and fund them so that they look

482
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 3: legit and they can help carry the message. They can

483
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 3: help change the way people see in this case tobacco use.

484
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 3: And the internal documents from the Tobacco giants themselves say

485
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,959
Speaker 3: that they had a couple of ideas. They wanted to

486
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 3: frame tobacco as a personal choice. Who were you to

487
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 3: tell me what to do, big brother. They wanted to

488
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 3: say that any anti tobacco legislation was Orwellian government overreach.

489
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: And in addition, Atlas also did a lot of underground,

490
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 3: backroom damage control by attacking science.

491
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 2: Ah, yeah, that makes sense. And you may recall this

492
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 2: growing up. I think I was about ten years old

493
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 2: around the time that there was a lot of information

494
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: coming out from health officials about secondhand smoke and how

495
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 2: dangerous that was. I don't know about you guys, but

496
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: I had parents of friends who would like smoke in

497
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 2: the car driving somewhere, and we're in the back seat

498
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: and the parents up there smoking, and we thought it

499
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: was fine up until about nineteen ninety three, or you know,

500
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 2: right around that time, when it was kind of stated

501
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: by a lot of officials by the US Environmental Protection

502
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 2: Agency that second hand smoke contributes to lung cancer. And

503
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: so how did Atlas respond to that?

504
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 3: Ooh, they were clever, clever boys. They used a hidden

505
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 3: hand method, which is almost directly descended from the work

506
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 3: of Edward Berneze, the father of public relations. They go

507
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 3: to a guy named Fred Singer. Fred is the director

508
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 3: of something called the Science and Environmental Policy Project or SEP.

509
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 3: STEP sounds cool until you realize that SEP is a

510
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 3: creation of a Philip Morris pr firm called APCO Associates.

511
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 3: So they're paying at every step to obscure a little

512
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 3: more of their source, right, because they can't have Fred

513
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 3: go up and say, hey, I talk to guys who

514
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 3: make billions off cigarettes, and they say it's cool, and.

515
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: They say it's fine.

516
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 3: They see you need to chill the f out. So

517
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 3: he instead he writes an op ed and nobody knows

518
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 3: that Philip Morris is supporting this. Nobody knows the Atlas

519
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 3: network is coordinating a lot of the stuff. In his

520
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 3: op ed says, look, the guys at the EPA, they're

521
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 3: not jerks. They're just drawing bad conclusions on junk science.

522
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 3: And they didn't think about indoor air quality. So well

523
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 3: intentioned but wrong and kind of dumb.

524
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, just you know what. The science isn't there.

525
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 3: Yet, guys, science isn't there yet. He also made a

526
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 3: report funded by a different group called the Tobacco Institute

527
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 3: that tried to entirely discredit any connection between secondhand smoke

528
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: and lung cancer. We could do a whole limited series

529
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 3: on big tobacco and Atlas especially. We're talking about Latin

530
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 3: America in the nineties, and then we're talking about the

531
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 3: Asian theater. This was not someone's pet project. It wasn't

532
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 3: a one time thing. This wasn't is a coordinated global

533
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 3: effort to keep tobacco money rolling in. And the best

534
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 3: example is vapes.

535
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure. I just want to make that

536
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 2: connection right now here.

537
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 4: Guys.

538
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: Individual freedom is the thing that gets pushed and talked about, right.

539
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: It is individual freedom for you to choose to smoke

540
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 2: that cigarette, and it is important that you get to

541
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: choose that, right. That's what we're fighting for. That's what

542
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: we're pushing for. That's the hearts and minds thing that

543
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 2: we're putting out there. But ultimately, it is so that

544
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 2: these massive corporations can continue manufacturing and selling cigarettes and

545
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: then manufacturing and selling more cigarettes. So in the end,

546
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,719
Speaker 2: it's actually about the individual freedom of a corporation and

547
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 2: or individuals that benefit from that corporation.

548
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, same reason why a lot of military conflicts throughout

549
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 3: history are phrased in terms of ideology, but they're really

550
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 3: about resource control, you know what I mean, That's what

551
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 3: that's look like. When former President Barack Obama, people don't

552
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 3: like to hear this, but when he said we're engaging

553
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 3: in conflicts in Libya to protect American interest, was he

554
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 3: really talking about democracy or was he talking about global

555
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 3: control of currency?

556
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: See? Yes, And in that case, you know, the individuals

557
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: actually get harmed by all of those pursuits. The same

558
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: thing with the smoking here, right, If the EPA puts

559
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 2: out this damning report about secondhand smoke and the response is, oh, no,

560
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 2: that's not right, that's not going to happen. There's a

561
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: knowledge there and operating knowledge that people are going to

562
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: probably get cancer if we keep doing this thing. But

563
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: that doesn't matter compared to pushing for the individual rights

564
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 2: and freedoms of whatever this organization or company that they

565
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 2: are trying to prop up.

566
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 3: You know what be interesting to see this is a tangent.

567
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 3: I didn't think of it until just now. It'd be

568
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: interesting to visit the headquarters of some of these tobacco

569
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 3: companies and see if you can still smoke inside. Yeah,

570
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 3: you have to go out to the smoking section, right.

571
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 3: I don't know, it'd be interesting. That's a lapeline.

572
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: Somebody who's been inside the Philip Morris HQ let us know.

573
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 3: Recently, Yes, because I'm sure everybody was lighting up in

574
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 3: like the eighties. Of course, Uh, we got to talk

575
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 3: about the vape thing again. This might end up being

576
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 3: a series, but this gives us a specific example of

577
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 3: what we're talking about with front networks.

578
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, Atlas has played a huge role.

579
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 5: In the battle that you're talking about, ben over vape legislation,

580
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 5: which we know has been a sticky subject in terms

581
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 5: of accusations of companies marketing them to kids and certain

582
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 5: flavored ones being outlawed and all.

583
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 4: Of that good stuff.

584
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 5: So, through groups like the World's Vapor Alliance, which is

585
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 5: a delightful name, Atlas and Big Tobacco launched a European

586
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 5: tour going through eight different countries touting the practice or

587
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 5: the benefits I guess of vaping over smoking. The idea

588
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 5: of the electronic cigarette could save nineteen million lives in Europe.

589
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 5: They argued, this as well as the idea that vaping

590
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 5: is ninety five percent less harmful than smoking.

591
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 2: Do you guys remember a couple of folks that we

592
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 2: interacted with one ture Do, and it was all about

593
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 2: a type of cigarette that essentially heats up the tobacco, yes,

594
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: the way similar things would for cannabis, but you're not

595
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 2: actually smoking tobacco. You're vaping it.

596
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 5: Put these little tobacco cartridges into them and they kind

597
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 5: of heat it up to vaporized temperature, and then that's

598
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 5: how you're spoking. But it is still it's not like

599
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 5: some sort of nicotine solution.

600
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 4: It is actually tobacco.

601
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 3: It's yeah, out in Asia. I don't think these things

602
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 3: are legal in the US yet, but out in Asia

603
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 3: there's a very popular thing where you buy you buy

604
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 3: these cartridges that look something like a cigarette, almost like

605
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 3: a candy cigarette, and then you pop them into what

606
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 3: looks like a little walkie talkie vapor thing, and that

607
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 3: that's tremendously popular over there.

608
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: I just wonder it just when I think back on

609
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: hearing the spiel, you know, the selling points of that

610
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 2: kind of thing, it feels very similar here. Okay, well

611
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 2: let's just continue.

612
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, sorry, Yeah, we've got some war stories, you know,

613
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 3: well they'll be in the second book maybe, but yeah, yeah,

614
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 3: World's Vapor Alliance first off badass name, especially after all

615
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 3: the other names we had to sit through. Yeah, this

616
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 3: is a winner.

617
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: Well, and let's note that's it's vapor vap e R,

618
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 2: not v A p o.

619
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 3: R, right, because it's personal activity. It's personal action gask

620
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 3: not you know, for whom the vape heats, heats for

621
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 3: the whatever. They're not all going to land. The idea

622
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 3: here is that they would travel around just like a

623
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 3: stop smoking campaign you may have seen in the United States,

624
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 3: and they would say that big government is like they

625
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 3: would say, we're trying to help people. We're doing harm reduction,

626
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 3: which was a phrase that Big Tobacco and Atlas loved.

627
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 3: And the way we're doing this is by making it

628
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 3: easier for people to vape. And the issue is that

629
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 3: big government is in the way of progress, you know,

630
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 3: so really those nineteen million lives are kind of falling

631
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 3: at their feet. They're restrictions on vaping, all those pesky taxes,

632
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 3: all those unfair bands on flavored vape juices, you know

633
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 3: what I mean. We like, we're the good guys here,

634
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 3: we're grass roots.

635
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well we're also one organic.

636
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 3: Yeah oh yeah yeah. Because their minibus did not have

637
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 3: carbon emissions, it was a green vehicle, which was smart

638
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: that they got in front of that, and they said, look,

639
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 3: all we're trying to do is amplify. And this is

640
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 3: a quote from an excellent lamand investigation. We're trying to amplify.

641
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 3: Quote the voice of passionate vapors around the world.

642
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 5: All the vapors around the world.

643
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 3: Shout out to the journalists Stefan Horel h O r

644
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 3: e L. Please read that. It's a long read and

645
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 3: it's phenomenal. It's excellent. So their tour and stick is

646
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 3: very much a propaganda war hearts and minds. They got

647
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 3: a selfie quarter. They set up this this ironic. We'll

648
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 3: see why in a second. They set up astro turf.

649
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,240
Speaker 3: They have a tent where you can get assistance writing

650
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 3: to politicians, small gifts, little swag bags. They got everything

651
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 3: you need, right. Why is it funny that they put

652
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 3: astro turf out on their pop.

653
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: Up, Well, astro turf Generally that term would be used

654
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 2: about making something look like it's grassroots.

655
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, ding ding ding nail on the head, A free

656
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 3: vapor to you, sir, first price.

657
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 4: Thank you, just what I always wanted.

658
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, astroturfing is huge in this particular situation, this idea

659
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 5: of conspiring to make these goals appear to be part

660
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 5: of some sort of organic, from the ground up, bootstrappy

661
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 5: type movement that is spearheaded by the public for real reasons,

662
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,959
Speaker 5: you know, the passionate vapors as you said, right, Yes.

663
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 3: We're just trying to make the world a better place.

664
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 5: I just want to be blow doomsdays out here with

665
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:38,800
Speaker 5: with my giant vape.

666
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 3: So here's why it's astroturfing in this case, based on

667
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 3: excellent work of journalists, we can see a daisy chain

668
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 3: of funding that gives lie to the narrative of grassroots organizations.

669
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 3: World Vapors Alliance is assisted by a pr company called

670
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 3: Red Flag. Oh oh, write Little Pallenteer. Red Flag does

671
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 3: a lot of similar astroturfing operations. Most notably, in twenty seventeen,

672
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 3: they ran a campaign in Europe called Freedom to Farm Farm. Yeah, yeah,

673
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 3: food freedom, what's not to love?

674
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 2: Yeah?

675
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 4: Gosh man.

676
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 5: It is one of the situations though, where the name

677
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,879
Speaker 5: likes as liberating and egalitarian as it sounds, what could

678
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,479
Speaker 5: be the exact opposite involvements, which is where we're about

679
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 5: to see Monsanto, the opposite of freedom to farm, the

680
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 5: freedom to cower in their shadow.

681
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 4: Basically if you are a small farmer.

682
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it turns out this grassroots movement of freedom to

683
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:54,399
Speaker 3: farm activists had very few actual farmers, humble or otherwise involved.

684
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 3: The ultimate goal of freedom to Farm was to allow

685
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 3: glyphosate throughout Europe on an industrial scale.

686
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 5: And just to reiterate a funded by Monsanto slash Bayar

687
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 5: who acquired Monsanto bay or such a central batty and

688
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 5: a lot of these corporates, you know, conspiracies.

689
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 2: I wonder if they had any of those terminator seeds

690
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 2: going on in that push too.

691
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's freedom to plant right over the next one.

692
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

693
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 3: So Red Flag is UH an organization with a certain

694
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 3: focus and expertise put diplomatically and World Vapor Alliance itself

695
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,240
Speaker 3: is a front created by something love this name called

696
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,240
Speaker 3: the Consumer Choice Center.

697
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: Dang, that sounds reliable, sounds like something I should go to.

698
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:53,720
Speaker 3: Yeah itself. CCC is a global grassroots movement.

699
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 2: UH.

700
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 3: It is funded by Japan Tobacco International, British American Tobacco

701
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 3: for Morris International, Altria, the co orchestrated Students for Liberty,

702
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 3: and of course the Star of tonight's show the Atlas Network.

703
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: Well, that's a humdinger right there. I don't know what

704
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: that means.

705
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 3: I can't get away with late books at the library,

706
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. I can't even give them

707
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 3: the slide on the fees for me.

708
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: But ultimately for you. None of this is None of

709
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 2: this is illegal, right. Not a thing we've talked about

710
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 2: is illegal.

711
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 3: No, this is a bit.

712
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 2: This is just like just I don't know, it's just.

713
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 5: Immoral and illegal are two very different things, I guess, right, especially.

714
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 3: I mean, especially when you get to this level of

715
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 3: money and network and an influence. Moral and illegal, as

716
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 3: you said, are two different things. It's like, was there

717
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 3: anything illegal about Elon musk recent financial parkour with Tesla

718
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 3: that absolutely brought their prices back up?

719
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 5: What do you do being a just boughtish crap time?

720
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 4: That's called being a whale.

721
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 5: Basically, when you have that much capital at your disposal,

722
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 5: you can't affect significant changes in the market, which is

723
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,399
Speaker 5: not technically considered market manipulation, or is market manipulation even legal.

724
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 4: It's kind of one of those things where it's like

725
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 4: I'm smart, I did it, I knew how to do it.

726
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 3: Exactly right. I just man, grassroots, I don't know, are

727
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 3: there any real grassroots movements left anyway? Like I say,

728
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 3: all these moves are not inherently illegal, and that's because

729
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 3: these are very well funded, very clever, and above all,

730
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 3: extremely careful enterprises. They hire top minds from the worlds

731
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 3: of psychology and advertising to socially engineer these outcomes. They

732
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 3: have extremely well paid legal beagles as well as super

733
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 3: sharp accountants, all to keep things on the right side

734
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 3: of the law if ever a situation goes sideways or

735
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 3: the optics get too bad. But we have to ask,

736
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 3: if these declared goals are in good faith, then why

737
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 3: would you obscure the sources of funding. Why wouldn't you

738
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 3: be transparent?

739
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 4: Right?

740
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 3: If there's nothing hinky afoot, As Chuck would say, it.

741
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: Makes me think about a few other organizations that had

742
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 2: some interesting funding we've interacted with.

743
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 3: Hmmm, oh, man, I'm trying to read your mind.

744
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 2: I think you know what I'm talking about.

745
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 3: It's tough.

746
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 2: Oh, Blockbuster, Yep, that's it, That's what it was. Thank

747
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 2: god they went down.

748
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 3: Of course, our corporate overlords, Dave and Busters, do check

749
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 3: it out, folks.

750
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 2: Uh huh, that's it.

751
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 3: I just wanted to squeeze the Dave of Buster's thing

752
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 3: in there. Anyway we're saying it makes you think we're

753
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 3: gonna take a pause for a word from our sponsors,

754
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 3: and we're back. Another example of controversy related to Atlas

755
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 3: that people call conspiracy is the against laws protecting the environment.

756
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 3: We all remember the environment right overrated.

757
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 4: Well, that was great back when it was great.

758
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:10,439
Speaker 3: I liked it's early work.

759
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 5: Now there's still some good bits, but it does seem

760
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 5: like it's maybe on its way out.

761
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 3: Yeah it was once this missed as a fanciful Internet rumor,

762
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 3: but there's hard proof that big oil companies knew as

763
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 3: far back as the seventies and likely earlier, that widespread

764
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 3: consumption of fossil fuels like coal, gas, and petrol absolutely

765
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,959
Speaker 3: wreak havoc on Earth's natural state. And before you feel

766
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 3: bad for gas prov excellon Royal Dutch and the rest,

767
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 3: just remember they too found a friend in Atlas, especially

768
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 3: BP and Royal Dutch Shell.

769
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 2: Hey, and as we go through this, go ahead and

770
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 2: check back through our catalog, because we've done I don't

771
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 2: know a dozen episodes on big oil and different things.

772
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 2: The first one is back in twenty twenty fourteen.

773
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 3: Guys, Yeah, great for the show, you know, yeah.

774
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 2: Learn about the petro dollar. Learn about Oh didn't we

775
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 2: interview somebody a while back that was all about this

776
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,919
Speaker 2: specific thing about pre knowledge from exon. Do you guys

777
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 2: remember this at all?

778
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:19,439
Speaker 3: We may have. This would be different from the DuPont story, right,

779
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:20,240
Speaker 3: is that.

780
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 4: That DuPont story?

781
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 3: Definitely a similar conspiracy occurred with DuPont.

782
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 2: Okay, I can't remember the name of it. I know

783
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: we interviewed somebody that had made a whole show about

784
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 2: this very thing, and it was just it was crazy

785
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 2: to learn. But we can actually see the other side now,

786
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 2: like the influence side, rather than the like the big

787
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 2: oil action side.

788
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: Yeah.

789
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 3: Royal, Dutch Shell and British Petroleum or BP were some

790
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 3: of Sir Fisher's first big corporate donors, all the way

791
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 3: back in the nineteen sixties, which means they were down

792
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 3: with Atlas before it existed. If we go to Jeremy Walker,

793
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 3: senior lecturer at the University of Technology, Sydney, will get

794
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 3: a better look at this. Walker is the author of

795
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 3: a book called More Heat Than Life, The Tangled Roots

796
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 3: of Ecology, Energy and economics, and he has been studying

797
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 3: the Atlas network for a long long time. As far

798
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 3: as people outside of Atlas go, he's probably a world

799
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 3: expert on the organization.

800
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 2: This is going to sound really familiar. Going back to

801
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: Brene's stuff, he was talking with the New Republic and

802
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 2: he talks about how Sir Fisher, through this thing, the

803
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 2: Institute of Economic Affairs, which existed before Atlas Network, quote,

804
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 2: would get these professors to write short, digestible articles, often

805
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 2: around things like currency conversion or sort of things that

806
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 2: were fairly technical to the non economists. Then quote, they

807
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 2: would have these wealthy donors to the IEA, that's the

808
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: Institute of Economic mcafairs, who would buy copies and send

809
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 2: them to all the schools and the universities for free.

810
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, not even asking the school to pay shipping. And

811
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 3: this is this is, by the way, a successful hacker

812
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 3: publishing conspiracy that occurs today. Have you ever wondered why

813
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 3: so many ghost written politicians books end up on the

814
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 3: New York Times bestseller list. It's not because people are

815
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 3: reading them. It's because a different campaign associates buy them

816
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,919
Speaker 3: in bulk, and they know exactly how to do it

817
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 3: to goose the numbers.

818
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 2: Dude, have you ever been in a doctor's office or

819
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 2: a dentist's office and seen the little brochures around that

820
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 2: have a lot of writing from actual people who clean teeth,

821
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 2: actual dentists, actual doctors telling you how great whatever medication

822
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 2: is or treatment is, and all this stuff. It's all

823
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 2: kind of the same thing.

824
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 3: I love it too, because you're bringing up one of

825
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 3: my favorite new folklore obsessions. We always hear the phrase

826
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 3: nine out of ten dentists mentioned it in the past,

827
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 3: but I am just obsessed with the idea of the

828
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:04,240
Speaker 3: tenth dentist.

829
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 4: You know what this deal is.

830
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 2: This rogue, the rogue dentist.

831
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 4: Yes, he's the one that's.

832
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, are you writing a story about how this one

833
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 2: dentist like discovers the conspiracy and goes down the rabbit

834
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 2: hole and tries to stop it?

835
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 3: There is a I am writing a dental based horror

836
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 3: story that I'm almost done with. And I think about

837
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:29,399
Speaker 3: a haunted tooth. Uh no spoilers, spooky, but we've talked

838
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 3: to I think you and I talked about that when

839
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 3: a little off air baby. Uh yeah, excited about that,

840
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 3: but yeah that that thankfully, as far as we know

841
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 3: is going to be a work of fiction. This is

842
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 3: real life manipulation of people. Right, So if you're a school,

843
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 3: are you going to turn down a free book? Probably not?

844
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 3: Who would also R I P R inbox anyway? That

845
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 3: why are they sending out this stuff that Matt, as

846
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 3: you said, is technical, right, is very much not for

847
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 3: the lay folk to It's because it establishes the bona

848
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 3: fides of the authors in question, and it normalizes their

849
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 3: work or its presence across campuses, and that means their

850
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 3: next work becomes normalized as well. So you could just

851
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,320
Speaker 3: push a little further each time, with each new article,

852
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 3: each in paper, each monograph, so long as no one

853
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 3: asks why the later work seems skeptical about the science

854
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 3: linking fossil fuels to ecological collapse, Because now you're not

855
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 3: just some random guy paid by a shadowy organization. Right now,

856
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 3: your doctor Frankenfurt from earlier, and you wrote pretty competently.

857
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 2: Earlier doctor Frankenfur, author of.

858
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah, that's a great boy author of And

859
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 3: then you get some of your buddies who are in

860
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 3: on the same grift to write the little blurbs at

861
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 3: the back of your book and they get an author

862
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 3: of as well.

863
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 2: Oh, bonus points if you can get somebody actually influential

864
00:49:59,239 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 2: on there.

865
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and at each point your manufactory credibility.

866
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 5: Well, here here's a quote to give some good contact

867
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 5: to this from Walker. The think tank method allowed corporations

868
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 5: to say things that they couldn't say themselves without appearing

869
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 5: to be merely speaking to their own profit motives. Serious switch,

870
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 5: m M, yeah, yeah, it's uh, it's weird.

871
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 3: I was trying to think of a more wholesome comparison.

872
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 3: The wholesome version I can think of as this. Let's

873
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 3: say you're a kid in elementary school and you have

874
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 3: a crush on a classmate, but you can't tell them yourself, right,

875
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 3: that would be just social suicide. So instead, you get

876
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 3: a more reputable buddy to go approach a friend of

877
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 3: the person you have a crush on, and they start saying,

878
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 3: you know a lot of people are saying this would

879
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:56,280
Speaker 3: be a great couple.

880
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,839
Speaker 5: Well, there's the inverse of that too, the cowardly move

881
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 5: of getting a friend to break up with somebody for you.

882
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, but in this case, you're making it seem as

883
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 2: though it's a good thing. It's a positive action. That

884
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 2: you can take, or belief that you can hold. It's

885
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 2: like they it's good to believe this, it's good to

886
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 2: do this, And there's something so insidious about that to

887
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 2: me when when there's knowledge that oh, potentially this is

888
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 2: actually a harmful action or even a harmful belief, well.

889
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 5: And inherent in it is just outright dishonesty.

890
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 2: You know.

891
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 5: It's a way of like the disguising your true motives

892
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 5: and hiding behind like a pr line of some sort

893
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 5: of like manufactured concern for your customers or for the

894
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 5: public will, like behind the scenes, you're completely working against

895
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 5: against their best interests.

896
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is asymmetrical info war, you know, corporations, we're

897
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 3: using these tactics to push the overall government of the

898
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 3: United Kingdom further and further toward their end goals, right,

899
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 3: and their end goals are pretty quantitative, more profit less regulation,

900
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,919
Speaker 3: fewer legal consequences for companies involved, you know what I mean.

901
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 3: That's part of why every so this didn't catch on

902
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 3: with the American public. But every so often you might

903
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 3: hear a politician try to campaign on what they call

904
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 3: tort reform. Do you remember hearing that phrase?

905
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 5: It is essentially making it harder to I mean, I

906
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 5: one version of it is making it harder to sue doctors.

907
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that was one of the big that was

908
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 3: one of the big pillars of it most recently in

909
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 3: the US and Atlas, by the way, especially in the beginning,

910
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 3: they were very focused on Latin America in particular, with

911
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 3: some support from the US government. This is where the

912
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 3: oil boy C suite types were terrified about growing leftist

913
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 3: movements in the nineteen eighties, people who might nationalize oil

914
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 3: resources or fossil fuel resources, people who might come up

915
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 3: with even more pesky regulations or tax schemes, you know

916
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 3: what I mean. So again, this is the shadow of Bernez.

917
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty four, Atlas funded the creation of something

918
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 3: called seed Dice. Okay, oh yeah, sorry, Center for the

919
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 3: Dissemination of Economic Information.

920
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 4: Yeah great, Yeah, that Sea Dice better.

921
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a little better. Okay.

922
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,959
Speaker 2: I'm so glad they're disseminating it though, you know, yeah,

923
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:33,280
Speaker 2: exactly good.

924
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, these names just give you semantic satiation after a time.

925
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 3: So fast forward, if you're from Venezuela familiar with it,

926
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 3: you might recognize this organization because if you fast forward

927
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 3: a few decades after their origin story. Sea Dice is

928
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 3: one of the big players in the downfall of Who

929
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 3: Go Chavez? Who Go Chavez? Of course on this show,

930
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 3: is most famous for having his own talk show podcast

931
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 3: and it was just wild.

932
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and having a three part series on our YouTube channel,

933
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 2: which you should definitely check out.

934
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,399
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, good call. I forgot about that one. Then

935
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 3: there's a work. In nineteen eighties Brazil, they used proxies

936
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 3: to cripple environmental regulations and indigenous activism. You can trace

937
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 3: the rise of the now convicted Bolsonaro directly back to

938
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:28,439
Speaker 3: Atlas because they created and funded and directed a thing

939
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 3: called the Free Brazil Movement of twenty fourteen. Freedom meeting,

940
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 3: more profit, fewer regulations, more quote unquote personal freedom.

941
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, from the tyranny of folks telling you what you

942
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 2: can and can't do, how much oil you can and

943
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 2: can't buy cigarettes.

944
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 3: Who are you Government of Brazil to tell us that

945
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 3: we got to keep some part of the Amazon around.

946
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 2: We need wood products.

947
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 3: Exactly? Oh man, Oh yeah, yeah. I wouldn't be surprised

948
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 3: if there were a couple of light propaganda attempts, like

949
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 3: you know, in fact, the Amazon is a really dangerous

950
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:12,879
Speaker 3: place all.

951
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 5: Those snakes and predatory animals, you.

952
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 4: Know, and get rid of them. Who needs them?

953
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 3: They're they're calling it the original favella clean evil. But yeah,

954
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 3: so from the perspective of Atlas leadership, again, no bad

955
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 3: guys in the story. Environmentalists and their proposed regulatory policies

956
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 3: were themselves cancerous to society, and no matter where you go,

957
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 3: the giveaway is you can see a uniform argument at play.

958
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:46,240
Speaker 3: The authors and experts share a party line. In this case,

959
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 3: the line is consistently anti environmental regulation. One example is

960
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety one the Macinaw Institute, which is a fun name.

961
00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 3: I don't know why. I just like the word Macanaw.

962
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 3: For now we know that nineteen ninety one they cherry

963
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 3: picked a rogues gallery of benighted economic theory to say

964
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 3: that arguing for environmental regulation was not just reactionary but

965
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 3: anti human. Why are you so worried about one kind

966
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 3: of bird when your decisions, however well intentioned they may be,

967
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 3: will sacrifice the economic freedom of potentially millions of people.

968
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 2: You may hear something ringing in your mind about recent

969
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 2: news over the past five years about waters being polluted,

970
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 2: and then the story comes out, or some expert will

971
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 2: come on television and talk about, why are we so

972
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 2: worried about this one tiny little species of fish? Who

973
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 2: gives a crap about that? It's anti human and anti

974
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 2: American to do all this other stuff, when in fact,

975
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 2: the real problem there is the polluting of waters right

976
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,720
Speaker 2: by industrial runoff and waste and all these other things.

977
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 2: But what they're trying to spin it as who gives

978
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 2: a about this thing that's not us, that's not about us,

979
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 2: what we do every day when we wake up in

980
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 2: the morning and have our coffee. And you can just

981
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 2: see how little things like that can be spun. And

982
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 2: you're no longer even talking about the energy regulation at all.

983
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, Rock Flag and Eagle, Am I right, Charlie, He's

984
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 3: got a point. This is the art, this is the

985
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 3: conversational parkour. Just like anybody with media training knows that,

986
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 3: no matter what an interviewer asks, you answer the question

987
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 3: you wish they had asked, right, And that's kind of

988
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 3: what's happening here. It's sith level stuff ethics asie. It's

989
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,959
Speaker 3: very clever and effective, but if you include ethics, it's

990
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 3: just reprehensible. The guy who mentioned earlier I love the

991
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 3: way he says his name nol Chauffon.

992
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

993
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 3: He leaves in twenty eighteen. He leaves Atlas in twenty

994
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 3: eighteen and goes on to head a think tank named

995
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 3: the Acton Institute, which is part of the Atlas Network.

996
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 2: Only on the Atlas Network.

997
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 3: I love it. Yeah. Actin Institute for the climate change

998
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 3: stuff is really interesting because they have a big history

999
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 3: in spinning anti climate legislation through the perspective of Christian religion.

1000
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 3: So that's their parkour move. They created another thing called

1001
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 3: the Cornwall Alliance out of Tennessee. The Cornwall Alliance is

1002
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 3: famous for a twelve part series they came out with

1003
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 3: called Resisting the Green Dragon. It's available on DVD.

1004
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 4: What's the Green Dragon?

1005
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 3: It's the it's environmental activist.

1006
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 5: Oh, that's hilarious. I've never heard it put that way before.

1007
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 4: That's so funny.

1008
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 3: The regulation these environmental uh these eco terrorist propose is

1009
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 3: part of a grand spiritual deception and the implication is

1010
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 3: that if you are a true Christian, you we'll see

1011
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 3: through the charade of big secular government pretending to save

1012
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 3: the world by preventing Christian businesses from making an honest

1013
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 3: dollar that's kind of a hat on a hat. Isn't

1014
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 3: it a little complicated?

1015
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 4: Man?

1016
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 2: There's so much deception in hiding it. It's really I

1017
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 2: don't know. It feels like there's too much to talk

1018
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,440
Speaker 2: about here, guys. There's so much more we need to

1019
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 2: get into. Agreed, Like I'm thinking about if we go back.

1020
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 2: Can I read off just three headlines that we found

1021
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 2: that are from news organizations that speak to the activities

1022
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 2: of the atlass network that we haven't even touched on yet.

1023
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 2: Here's rue from twenty seventeen. It's from the Intercept Sphere

1024
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 2: of Influence, How American libertarians are remaking Latin American politics.

1025
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 2: It's all about activities that the Atlas Network had been

1026
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 2: doing in many countries in Latin America. It's a huge article.

1027
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 2: There's a lot that we could cover in there. There's

1028
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 2: one from The Guardian called how a conservative US network

1029
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 2: undermined indigenous energy rights in Canada. So we've got Latin America,

1030
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 2: we got Canada. This one's from twenty twenty two, and

1031
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 2: one from this year from the Australian broadcasting company. How

1032
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 2: Atlas Network a master a global network of free market

1033
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 2: think tanks and reached into Australia and New Zealand, so like,

1034
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 2: think about the global reach of those three stories alone,

1035
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 2: about the influence that they're having on politics and legislation.

1036
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 3: Right, and why the names are so purposely vague and boring,

1037
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 3: and a lot of these things. Also, there's a lot

1038
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 3: of great academic research about this out now, and you'd

1039
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 3: be surprised how much of it is freely available online.

1040
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 3: Even if it's a little bit dry, it's important and

1041
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 3: always remember that if you go to an academic source

1042
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 3: and you find a paper or a study that you

1043
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 3: really want to read but you don't have access to it,

1044
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 3: you can write to the academic, the professor, the researcher

1045
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 3: who did the work, and nine times out of ten

1046
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 3: they will be more than happy to send you a copy.

1047
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 3: We've tried this, we know it works. I'd like to

1048
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 3: read just a few mentions of some more academic works.

1049
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 3: Merchants of Doubt, Absolute banger. This is about how a

1050
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 3: handful of scientists obscured the truth on issues from tobacco

1051
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 3: smoke to global warming. Featuring our panels with ATLAS. The

1052
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 3: International Journal of Health Planning and Management has a great

1053
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 3: write up. The at LIAS Network a strategic ally of

1054
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 3: the tobacco industry, and that that one is open source

1055
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 3: as well. There's just tons of info out there once

1056
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:35,479
Speaker 3: you know where to look.

1057
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 2: Well, and don't forget these organizations specialize in giving out

1058
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 2: grants and getting you to do research, you to put

1059
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 2: out papers, you to get that information out there. So

1060
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 2: we have to remember that individual journalists, individual professors, individual

1061
01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 2: anybody is not untouchable when it comes to this stuff.

1062
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 2: You have to choose who you end up believing and trusting.

1063
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 2: But it is just just keep that in mind when

1064
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 2: you go out there and you're doing your own research

1065
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 2: into this stuff. It's murky on purpose, and it's even

1066
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 2: murky in the things that maybe you would even like

1067
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 2: to believe right as you're going through.

1068
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 3: It, and you know full disclosure. You see this in

1069
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 3: any university of note and anything tank or research institute,

1070
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 3: because people often end up chasing funding, chasing grants just

1071
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 3: to make a living. I remember at Georgia Tech, which

1072
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 3: is home to a ton of incubators, a lot of

1073
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 3: state craft, especially in the fields of technology and nuclear proliferation,

1074
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 3: there were countless things like this right where you had

1075
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 3: to you as a member of a college you had

1076
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 3: to have some serious come to Jesus moments about how

1077
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:58,919
Speaker 3: far your ethics were willing to go right now, how

1078
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 3: comfortable you were with knowing or not knowing the true

1079
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:06,280
Speaker 3: source name of a funding opportunity. It's rough out there

1080
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 3: is what we're saying, and it's bigger than vapes. It's

1081
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 3: bigger than a cigarette, it's bigger than hip hop. It's

1082
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 3: largely invisible to the public, but these conspiracies are real.

1083
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 3: Our second episode in this series is going to be

1084
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 3: all about the CIA sidekick we mentioned little guy called

1085
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 3: NED the National Endowment for Democracy. In the meantime, we'd

1086
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 3: love to hear if you have experience with front groups

1087
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 3: of this nature. We can't wait to have you on

1088
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 3: the show. So drop us a line, give us a call.

1089
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 5: Find us on the internet by all means, hit us

1090
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:43,919
Speaker 5: up at the handle Conspiracy Stuff, where we exist on

1091
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 5: Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where it gets crazy,

1092
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 5: on x FKA, Twitter, and on YouTube Video Content galor

1093
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 5: for YouTube peruse and hopefully enjoy on Instagram at TikTok. However,

1094
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 5: we're Conspiracy Stuff Show.

1095
01:03:57,920 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 2: If you want to give us a call, our number

1096
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 2: is one eight three three STD WYTK. What is your

1097
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 2: Maco Mupsey's name for an innocuous think tank.

1098
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:13,440
Speaker 3: Other than Illumination Global Unlimited, which is real.

1099
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 4: Yes, that's very painfully real. Yes, terrifyingly real.

1100
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 2: When you call in, you've got three minutes, give yourself

1101
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 2: a cool nickname and let us know if we can

1102
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 2: use your name and message on the air. If you

1103
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 2: would like to instead send us an email, you can.

1104
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence

1105
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet I'm afraid. Sometimes a

1106
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 3: proxy void writes back, what do we mean? There's one

1107
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 3: way to find out conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1108
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 2: Stuff I Don't Want you to Know is a production

1109
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:06,240
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.