1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy B. Wilson, and today we are concluding our 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: two part episode on the renowned poet Edna St. Vincent Malay. 5 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: She was the first woman to win the Pulitzer Prize 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: for poetry. She was one of the Goggenheim Foundations judges 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: for its poetry Fellowships, and she was also wildly best selling. 8 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: She managed to sell tens of thousands of copies of 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: her poetry and make huge amounts of money off of 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: it in the middle of the Great Depression, which seems 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: like a hard thing to do. Her work was so 12 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: popular that every new book that she published sent her 13 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: on a reading tour around the country, and in nineteen 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: forty she was also elected to the American Academy of 15 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: Arts and Letters. In thirty one, artist Georgia O'Keeffe wrote 16 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: a letter to Edna St. Vincent Malay, and in this 17 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: letter she told a story about a hummingbird that got 18 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: trapped in her studio. So she caught the hummingbird, but 19 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 1: every time she opened her hand just a little bit 20 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: to try to get a look at the hummingbird, It 21 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: would break its way free and then go bash itself 22 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: against the window pane. She described it as being just 23 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: so full of life that it couldn't be contained no 24 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,639 Speaker 1: matter how she tried. It took her four tries before 25 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: she was actually able to get the bird outside, because 26 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: every time it would break out of her grasp and 27 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,279 Speaker 1: then just go hurl itself against the windows. Georgia told 28 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: Vincent that she was like the hummingbird, and that if 29 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: Vincent didn't get what she was saying with this description, 30 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: then surely her husband would. I think that characterizes her 31 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: character pretty well. And the first half of our episode today, really, 32 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: or the previous one, the one from earlier this week, 33 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: looked at her early life chronologically for her later life. 34 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: For inst I'd going to sort of organize it thematically. Uh, 35 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: going chronologically would be a little kind of a slock, 36 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: So we're instead going to kind of talk our way 37 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: through some common themes in her life after she got 38 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: married to her husband, whose name was Eugen Blassavan. Yes, 39 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: so we left off right after they had been married 40 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: and for a while after their honeymoon, Vincent and Eugen 41 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: rented a house in Greenwich village, but eventually Vincent wanted 42 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: to be somewhere quieter where she could still beat a 43 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: host friends, but could also really focus on her writing. 44 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: In March, they found a seven hundred acre farm for 45 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: sale in New York and they bought it for nine 46 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Vincent named it Steeple Top, and that was 47 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: named after a kind of flower that grew there. And 48 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: this was a steeple bush also known as hard hack. 49 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: It has these pink kind of pointy flowers. The property 50 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,839 Speaker 1: was in really poor condition, so Vincent and Eugen put 51 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: a huge amount of time and work into actually making 52 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,119 Speaker 1: it into a functioning arm. And it had an outdoor 53 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: bar where, in their words, the flowers were watered with 54 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: gin uh. Freestanding doors led to what Vincent called her 55 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: garden rooms, and they later put in a spring fed 56 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: swimming pool where bathing suits were not allowed. It was 57 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: only skinny dipping. And they also bought and built a 58 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: barn from a kit that they purchased from Sears. They 59 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: raised animals in addition to the food crops that they 60 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: raised there. They built a riding cabin for Vincent and 61 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: this was set back among some pine trees. When it 62 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,839 Speaker 1: burned down to everything but the stove. They've built another one. 63 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: Vincent spaced out the windows so that she could see 64 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: who was in the pool without easily being seen herself, 65 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: because the pine trees would block the view for most 66 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: of the places people could stand in the swimming pool, 67 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: So she would look out the windows to see who 68 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: was down at the pool and at the bar, and 69 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: then she would decide whether she wanted to come down 70 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: for happy Hour or stay in the cabin riding. That 71 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: sounds sort of like a glorious life, doesn't it? Like 72 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: it really does the whole time we were there, because 73 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: this this whole episode comes after a visit to Steepletop, 74 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: and the whole time we were there, I was like, 75 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: you know, if this were simultaneously walkable to stuff like 76 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: stores and places to get groceries, this would be great. 77 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: But it's a little isolated, and apart from some time 78 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 1: that they spent traveling, Steepletop was really Vincent and Eugen's 79 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: home for the rest of their lives. While Vincent did 80 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: do a lot of work in the garden, she she 81 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: had almost nothing to do with most of the household 82 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: duties that would have been more typical and expected of 83 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: a wife. At the time, Eugen's whole goal in their 84 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: relationship was to make sure Vincent had whatever she needed 85 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: to write, so the house was fully staffed. Vincent said 86 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: that she liked to walk into her dining room as 87 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: though it were a hotel. We'll let's start contrast to 88 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: when she was a child and basically took care of 89 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: her entire home for her mother and sisters. Absolutely, Steepletop 90 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,799 Speaker 1: was also a home to their friend, some of whom 91 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: came to stay for weeks at a time. Arthur Ficky 92 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: and Gladys Brown eventually bought property nearby, and they named 93 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: their property hard Hack. At first, Eugen's money was what 94 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: paid for their life at steeple Top, but Vincent's writing 95 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: eventually started to bring in an income of her own. 96 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: Poetry made her really rich as someone who majored in 97 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: poetry in college. This is bizarre to me. This is 98 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: a super unique situation. Yeah. Well, and you know, poetry 99 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: did used to be a whole lot more popular in 100 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: America and in other parts of the world than it 101 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: is right now, but maybe not to the point that 102 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: people would really be rich. But seriously, poetry made her 103 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: very rich, but They also spent their money very freely, 104 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: so they didn't always have a lot of cash on hand. 105 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: Some years steeple Top actually turned a profit, and other 106 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: years it was more like a tax right off to 107 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: kind of buffer this income that was coming in from 108 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: her royalties and just to kind of, you know, make 109 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: a clear pick sure of how much money she was 110 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: making as a writer. It was a lot. Uh. They 111 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: actually were able to buy an island of their own 112 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: off the coast of Maine at the height of the 113 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: Great Depression. Of course, it was not a terribly expensive island. 114 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: It was seven fifty dollars, but that was still seven 115 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty extra dollars to buy an island with 116 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: during the Great Depression. Yeah, that's a lot at that time, 117 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah. So, if we left Vincent and Yugen's 118 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: story here, their life at Steepletop would sort of sound 119 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: like a happy, semi bohemian extension of what their life 120 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: had been like in Greenwich Village. So settled and happier, 121 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: but still really full of drinking and a series of 122 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: lovers for both of them. Um, But as Vincent got older, 123 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,119 Speaker 1: her life got a little more difficult and a little 124 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: more nuanced Vince. Its life and work had really made 125 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: her a role model for women. She lived a life 126 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: of personal autonomy and sexual freedom, which were completely unique 127 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: at the time, and this is one of the reasons 128 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: why her poetry was so incredibly six sessful. Women flocked 129 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: to it and its themes of love, sexual liberation, and 130 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: living life your own way. So all of these themes 131 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: made a lot of her work implicitly feminist, but very 132 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: little of what she wrote in her early career was 133 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: overtly political. On occasion, she did call out the hypocrisy 134 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: of being referred to as a woman poet instead of 135 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: just a poet, or of being, for example, honored at 136 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: a university only to then be sent off to a 137 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: social that was quote for the wives, instead of being 138 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: allowed to, you know, hang out with the other honorees. 139 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: But for the most part, she just lived as she 140 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: wanted to live, and then other people were inspired by 141 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: doing that. She was sort of being an activist by 142 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: example rather than being an outwardly demonstrative activist for most 143 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: of her life, and two notable exceptions to this came 144 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: a little later in her life. The first was the 145 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: Sacco and Vinzetti case. Uh, there's actually a previous episode 146 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: in the archive that Katie and say I did about them. 147 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: But Sacco and Vinzetti were Italian anarchists who had been 148 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: accused of murder, and they were tried and sentenced to 149 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: die in There were layers and layers of unfairness and 150 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: injustice about the trial, and the sentence was one that 151 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: divided Americans. Intellectuals, artists, writers, and others flocked to support 152 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: the two men, and the effort to get their sentence 153 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: overturned went on for years. Vincent was on the side 154 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: of clemency. In nine seven, towards the end of the 155 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 1: battle for the two men's freedom, she and Eugen went 156 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: to Boston to march in protest, and she wrote a 157 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: poem entitled Justice Denied in Massachusetts. While they were in Boston, 158 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: Eugen bailed out demonstrators who had previously been arrested. Vincent 159 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 1: also marched herself and was, along with other protesters who 160 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: were marching with her, arrested herself. And when Vincent was freed, 161 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: she was granted an audience with the governor and she 162 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: took advantage of it to plead for the men to 163 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: be spared. In the end, though they were hanged, and 164 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: Vincent's own trial became news, with the media calling her 165 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: an American Joan of Arc, and she was eventually acquitted. 166 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: Vincent's writing took another political turn during World War Two. 167 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: Earlier in her career, themes of pacifism had been woven 168 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: into some of her work, but as cities in Europe 169 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: started to fall to Hitler, her views really shifted. This 170 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: was especially true as German troops invaded the Netherlands, which 171 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: put Eugene her husband's own family at risk. Vincent was 172 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: speaking and writing in favor of going to war long 173 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: before the United States did, and during World War Two. 174 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: Some of this work was definitely propaganda. A lot of 175 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: it resonated with the public, but reviews from literary circles 176 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: were pretty scathing. Her literary reputation didn't entirely recover from 177 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: this period during her lifetime. Before we moved on to 178 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: one of the most notable and also kind of ill 179 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: fated love affairs during her later life. Take a brief 180 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: moment and talk about a word from a sponsor stupendous. 181 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: So to get back to Vincent and eugen we're not 182 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: describing their relationship as polyamorous since that's not a term 183 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: that was coined until the late twentieth century, long after 184 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: both of them had died. But their marriage was definitely 185 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 1: not monogamous on either side. Their relationship was meant to 186 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: be unpossessive and welcoming of other people, and for Vincent 187 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: in particular, the excitement and passion of a new relationship 188 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: often seemed to make her poetry a lot better. It 189 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: really inspired what she was writing about. And as we've 190 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: said before, Eugen really wanted Vincent to have whatever she 191 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: needed so that she could write more poetry and guests 192 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: at steeple Top. It will probably be no surprise included 193 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: Vincent's past lovers, both male and female. Eugen would make 194 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: himself scarce when he felt, like, you know, it was 195 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: time for him to step out. One of Vincent's most 196 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: notable relationships during her marriage to Eugen was with the 197 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: poet George Allen. Like Vincent, George was a gifted poet. 198 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: He won the Pulitzer Prize for Poetry. He also won 199 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: to Guggenheim Fellowships. He was the editor for Poetry Magazine, 200 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: which is a very prominent established poetry journal. The two 201 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: of them also worked together to translate Baudelaire's Flowers of 202 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: Evil into English. George and Vincent met after a poetry 203 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: reading that she gave in n and at the time 204 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: he was only twenty one and Vincent was thirty six 205 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: and Eugen at this point was forty eight. The relationship 206 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: inspired Vincent's sonnet sequence called Fatal Interview. Some of their 207 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: letters also survived, and they tell the story of a passionate, ecstatic, 208 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: and erotic love affair. It bordered on obsession, with Vincent 209 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 1: trying to figure out any way she could for them 210 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: to see one another. It was also a relationship that 211 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: really threatened to undo Vincent and Eugen's marriage at a 212 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: couple of points. It led to the one of the 213 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: longer separations of their lives, when Vincent and Eugen both 214 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: went to Europe, but Eugen went back home alone so 215 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: that Vincent could be alone with George. Vincent wrote to 216 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 1: Eugen while she was away, and her letters seemed to 217 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: try to reassure him that he was loved and that 218 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: she missed him. But he wrote her far more than 219 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: she wrote to him, and it seemed as though she 220 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 1: loved Eugen, but she was in love with George. This 221 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: sort of disparity started to weigh on Eugen and he 222 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: became increasingly worried that his wife was never coming back home. 223 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: When she finally did tell him that she was ready 224 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: to come home again, he was elated, and he went 225 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: to Europe to meet her rather than waiting for her 226 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: in New York. Vincent's relationship with George did continue off 227 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: and on for years, and it eventually became a very 228 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: tumultuous one. Yeah, and it did ultimately end, and that 229 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: her her sonnet sequenced fatal Interview kind of chronicles the 230 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: the rise and fall of this kind of extremely passionate 231 00:12:55,120 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: but also kind of rocky relationship. Vincent also seemed almost 232 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: beset by tragedies later on in her life. Her friend 233 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: and colleague Eleanor Wiley died in and Vincent received word 234 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: about it just as she was about to take the 235 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: stage for reading at the Brooklyn Academy of Music. Instead 236 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: of reading her own work, Vincent recited Eleanor's from memory. 237 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: Vincent's mother, Cora, got sick in nineteen thirty one and 238 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: died that February, after Vincent had received word that she 239 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: wasn't doing well, but before she could get home to 240 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: see her. They brought her body home to Steepletop, and 241 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: it had to be brought by sleigh over the last 242 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: leg of the journey because the snow was too deep. 243 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: Cora's casket lay in the withdrawing room, surrounded by flowers 244 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: for four days while they literally blasted a grave into 245 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: the frozen granite on the property at Steepletop. Vincent and 246 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: her sisters all felt tremendously guilty over their mother's death. 247 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: Although her acute illness would seemed pretty sudden, she had 248 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: been complaining of being vaguely unwell for a couple of years, 249 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: and they all felt like they should have done more 250 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: to help her and possibly prevent her death. Uh they 251 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: wound up sort of saluting Eugen's mother at the same 252 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: time when they had a grade a grave side service 253 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: for Vincent's mother, because his mother had also died the 254 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: week before. Vincent actually reconnected with her father when he 255 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: reached out to her in ninety five. He was in 256 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: fact writing to ask her for money. Vincent actually sent 257 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: the money, and she ended up providing for him until 258 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: he died years later. The next year, Vincent and Eugen 259 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: were in Santa Belle Island, Florida. They checked into the 260 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: hotel and they went directly to the beach to look 261 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: for seashells. Vincent really loved seashells, and there's still a 262 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: huge collection of them surviving in the dining room at Steepletop. 263 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: While they were out, the hotel burned to the ground, 264 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: taking with it everything that they had brought with them. 265 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: This included a personal copy of a seventeenth century book, 266 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: the manuscript for an since next book, and the manuscript 267 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: for another book that she had been working on. It 268 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: took her more than a year to try to reconstruct 269 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: all of this writing from memory. Oh, that's hard to 270 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: think about. Vincent's younger sister, Kathleen, died of acute alcoholism 271 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: in and she was also, by the end of her 272 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: life experiencing some degree of mental illness. At this point, 273 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: a huge rift had developed between Kathleen and Vincent. Kathleen 274 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: was also a poet, and she just could not get 275 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: out from under Vincent's shadow. She had also started to 276 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: feel like her sister had stolen all of her best 277 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: ideas and made them famous in her own work. She 278 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: became kind of obsessed with the idea that that her 279 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: sister had done her wrong in some way. She had 280 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: also been asking Eugen and Vincent for money really often 281 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: before her death, and Eugen often felt like she was 282 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: asking for money and then squandering it, so she would 283 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: ask for money for medical bills, but then spend it 284 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: on something else, and then need more any for the 285 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: medical bills as long as or as well as more 286 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: money for something else, so they were really kind of 287 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: estranged by the time she died. In ninety five, Arthur Ficky, 288 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: Vincent's longtime friend and occasional lover, died of throat cancer, 289 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: and he was buried on his property at hard Hack 290 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: that was nearby to Steeple Top. On top of all 291 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: of these personal losses and tragedies, Vincent herself really started 292 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: to struggle with alcoholism and drug addiction later on in 293 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: her life. She really wasn't in good health for much 294 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: of her adult life. She had ongoing problems with both 295 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: her digestive and her reproductive systems. She experienced frequent headaches, 296 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: and according to one story, during the nineteen twenties, she 297 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: was talking to a psychologist at a cocktail party about them, 298 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: and he was a Freudian and began to ask questions 299 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: that suggested that he thought she might be a lesbian, 300 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: and she said, oh, you mean I'm a homosexual. Of 301 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: course I am, and heterosexual too, But what's that got 302 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: to do with my headache? I love that start too. 303 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,959 Speaker 1: In the later part of The King's Henchman, which was 304 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: an opera for which Vincent had written the libretto, was 305 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 1: being performed in New York. A winter storm hit Steepletop 306 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: and she didn't want to miss the show, so Uden 307 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: decided to take her to the train station in a sled. 308 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: He misjudged a gap in the hedge along the way, 309 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: and a branch hit Vincent in the eye and scratched 310 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: her cornea. As you can imagine, that is immensely painful, 311 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: and medical care for such an injury at the time 312 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: was focused on killing the pain rather than treating the injury, 313 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: and she wound up having trouble with her sight, unable 314 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: to read or write for weeks. And even after the 315 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: hit that I had healed, that injury really made her 316 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: chronic headache problem even worse. She had another accident in 317 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six. She was leaning against the car door 318 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: while Yuden was driving, and he went around a sharp curve, 319 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: which caused the door to fly open. She l from 320 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: the car and rolled downhill for a while before she 321 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 1: managed to grab some vegetation and stop herself. This was 322 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: another injury that prevented her for writing at all while 323 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: it healed. By the late nineteen thirties, eugen was describing 324 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: Vincent as too sick to leave her bed a lot 325 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: of the time. She really blamed the pain from the 326 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: accident for starting her addiction to morphine and other pain killers, 327 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: although it doesn't quite add up because in the intervening 328 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: years there aren't many references to that pain in her letters, 329 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: her diaries, and her medical records. But regardless, she was 330 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: eventually taking enormous, enormous doses of morphine. She was also 331 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: combining it with alcohol and other drugs. She was taking 332 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: far more morphine than Arthur Ficky was in his last 333 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: days as a cancer patient, for example. You know, usually 334 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: when someone at this point was in the in stages 335 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: of cancer and being treated with morphine, they didn't really 336 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: pay a lot of attention to the dosages and ways. 337 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: This is still true today. She was taking like multiple 338 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,239 Speaker 1: times more than his docage. His dosage was for end 339 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: stage cancer pain um. She would also take her first 340 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: dose of morphine within minutes of getting up in the morning. 341 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: Eugen tried to get her to wean herself off of 342 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: these drugs, even taking morphine himself and reducing his own 343 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: dosages to see what she was going through and as 344 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: proof that it could be done. Vincent wound up an 345 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 1: impatient treatment for her addictions multiple times. She also had 346 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: a nervous breakdown in nine and at one point she 347 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: she and Eugen retired to Ragged Islands so she could 348 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: try to work her way through recovery there. That was 349 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: the island that they had purchased during the Great Depression 350 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: uh In addition to this drug addiction, Vincent was also 351 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: an alcoholic, eventually to the point of having alcohol induced 352 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: blackouts on a pretty regular basis, and even as she 353 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: slowly reduced her morphine intake, largely by replacing it with 354 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: other drugs, she continued to drink and drink heavily until 355 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: the end of her life. In nineteen forty nine, Eugen 356 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: was diagnosed with lung cancer. An X ray had actually 357 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: revealed a spot on one of his lungs a long 358 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: while before that, but he had ignored it. Everybody sort 359 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: of assumed that it was tuberculosis, and he really insisted 360 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: that the more important thing was for him to take 361 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: care of Vincent. He made it through surgery to remove 362 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: the diseased lung, but he ended up dying of a 363 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: cerebral hemorrhage on August twenty nine. In the aftermath of 364 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: Eugen's death, Vincent had to be hospitalized, and she finally 365 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: convinced her friends and family that she absolutely had to 366 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: return to Steepletop. The only way she was going to 367 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: make it through was to write her way through her 368 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: grief while she was there, so she had the phone 369 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: reconnected so people could check on her, and then she 370 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: went back to Steepletop to live alone. On October nineteenth 371 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: of nineteen fifty, John Penny, who worked on the property, 372 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: was bringing firewood when he of Vincent on the floor 373 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: at the foot of the steps. It is not entirely 374 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: clear what happened. There was a bottle of wine and 375 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: a wineglass on the stairs, and she had clearly broken 376 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: her neck when she fell. According to her obituary in 377 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: the New York Times, it was a heart attack. Vincent 378 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: was fifty eight and Eugen had been dead for a 379 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: little over a year. Her ashes are interred next to 380 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: Eugen's at the end of a trail that's now known 381 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: as the Poetry Trail at Steepletop, Cora's grave side is 382 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: they're also as well as Norma's that was Vincent's sister, 383 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: and Charles, who was Norma's husband. They are all sort 384 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: of collected together as as five grave sites at the 385 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: end of this trail. After Vincent's death, her sister Norma 386 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: moved into steeple Top with her husband, the artist Charles Ellis. 387 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: Norma kept her sister's things as untouched as possible. She 388 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: kept her own cosmetics and personal items in a shoe 389 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: box so they would never get mixed with her sisters, 390 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,479 Speaker 1: and Norma chose to hang her clothes on the shower 391 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: curtain on in the bathroom. It is a very large bathroom, 392 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: there was a lot of space here, but still she 393 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: would not use the closet because she seemed to intuit 394 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: that her sister's home was going to be important and 395 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 1: that she should preserve everything in it. As it was 396 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,959 Speaker 1: based on Vincent's income as a poet versus her expenses 397 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: its themes, as though she would have been in a 398 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: position to leave kind of an endowment to keep the 399 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: place running after her death. After all, she'd been seeing 400 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: huge sales of poetry in the middle of the Great Depression. 401 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 1: Um she was making between seventeen thousand and twenty one 402 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year during the late thirties. There's not 403 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 1: really a great way to put that into today's dollars, 404 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: but it was easily the same as having an income 405 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: in the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. And 406 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: she was also writing more commercial work at that time 407 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: under the pseudonym of Nancy Boyd, so she was getting 408 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: income from that as well. So even with medical bills 409 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: paying for medical care for Vincent's father insist her, and 410 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: they're generally free spending lifestyle, it seems as though they 411 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: should have been pretty financially stable. In reality, though, Vincent 412 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: would ask for a generous advance from her publisher for 413 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: her next book, and that would let her pay off 414 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: the debts she had incurred since publishing the previous book, 415 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: so she was always sort of living off of loans 416 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: from her publisher for work that she hadn't done yet. 417 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: Biographer Daniel Mark Epstein's hypothesis, which is supported by letters 418 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: and some other documents, but it is not conclusively proven. 419 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: Is that before the Great Depression, Vincent invested most of 420 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: her money in a thoroughbred farm and continued to do 421 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: show well into the nineteen thirties. She was definitely known 422 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: to love horses and horse racing, but this paper trail 423 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: is kind of scanty and convoluted, and it's also possible 424 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: that she really wanted to keep the thoroughbred farm, which 425 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: was being used of course to raise race horses, a 426 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: secret because her father's gambling, which we mentioned in the 427 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: previous episode, had been so detrimental to her family. And 428 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: then the war also intervened, so some of Eugen's money 429 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: was actually back in Holland and all of his assets 430 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,239 Speaker 1: there wound up being frozen, so it wasn't like they 431 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: had access to any of that. So today Steepletop is 432 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: still standing in Oscarlitz, New York. It's run by the 433 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: Edna St. Vincent Malay Society, and it's open for tours 434 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: from the end of May to the end of October. 435 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: Uh because that you know, they were not really financially 436 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: flush at the time of Vincent's death. The society is 437 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: raising money to restore some of the rooms that aren't 438 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: currently open for public viewing. Um. There you are able 439 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: to see parts of the home if you tour it, 440 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: but not everything because there are rooms that still really 441 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 1: need some work. They also have a new head gardener 442 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: who's working from journals to reconstruct the properties, landscaping and gardens. 443 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: And it's pretty much all donations supported. Um, there's not 444 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: really you know, a fund from the author's estate that's 445 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: keeping things going at this point. But if you are 446 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: interested in going there, it's pretty awesome. It's two and 447 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: a half hours from New York City and two and 448 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: a half hours from Boston, so you can get to 449 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: it pretty easily from a couple of places. I'd say 450 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: it's probably safe to say this is Tracy's recommended visiting list. 451 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it was. It was lovely. We toward the house, 452 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: and we toward the gardens, and then we walked on 453 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: the Poetry Trail, which is the trail that goes out 454 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: to the grave sites, and it has uh like little 455 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: plaques along the way that have poems about what you're 456 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: seeing there in the landscape and in the vegetation that's 457 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: growing there. So it's really lovely. Um. It's also we 458 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: also went pretty much the first weekend of their season, 459 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: and so there was nobody there but but like me 460 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: and Patrick and a couple of docents. Nice. Yeah, it was. 461 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: It was a very lovely trip. Do you also have 462 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,239 Speaker 1: a spot of listener mail for us? I do. This 463 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: is actually a very lengthy letter, so I am only 464 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: going to read about the first half of it. It 465 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: is from Stephanie, and Stephanie wrote to us after our 466 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: death president now episode um and she wrote to us, 467 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: and she starts off with some talk about how she 468 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,959 Speaker 1: has heard the name of Galudet or Galadet or Galadet 469 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: University pronounced, which we've gotten a couple of notes about that, 470 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: and I keep we now have collected i think four 471 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: different pronunciations for people how people say the name of it. Yeah, 472 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: So she says, there is an interesting story that we 473 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: were told about Galudett going to Europe to learn sign language, 474 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: and that was the elder Galudette who went to try 475 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: to find out, how you know, some some information about 476 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: the good the best ways to teach deaf people. He 477 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: went to several places that were either based on the 478 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: oral tradition or private academies that would only teach him 479 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: sign language for a price, so he was about to 480 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: leave without accomplishing his goal when he met someone from 481 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: a deaf institution in France who invited him to come 482 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 1: to their school and learn French sign language free of charge. 483 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: He met a deaf French scholar, Laurence Clerk, who came 484 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: back with him to help set up deaf education in America. 485 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: To this day, there are many signs that are based 486 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: on French concepts in American sign language, yet British sign 487 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: language is very different from the American I heard you 488 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: say that the differences between those of the oral tradition 489 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: and the culturally death are not as much of an 490 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: issue now as Cochlear implants. I agree with you that 491 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: it is not much as much of a national issue 492 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: as before, but I do not think I can agree 493 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: that it is no longer an issue in the deaf community. 494 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: I'm going to pause there and clarify what I was 495 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: trying to say, which is that the thing that is 496 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,959 Speaker 1: not so much of an issue is whether to teach 497 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: children who are born unable to hear now uh sign 498 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: language Like that's not there's not really an ongoing debate 499 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: about that. The much bigger debate is whether a child 500 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: who was born now not able to hear, should have 501 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: a cochlear implant or not. Right um, to get back 502 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: to the letter, I was an interpreter for the death 503 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: for several years, and though it has been about ten 504 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: years since I interpreted, I do not think things have 505 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: changed that drastically since I was in touch with the 506 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: deaf community. I had learned sign language as a child, 507 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: as I had a personal friend that was deaf. He 508 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 1: had about thirty five hearing in one ear and almost 509 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: none in the other. Yet he was sent away to 510 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: a boarding school for the deaf in Missouri and learned 511 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: sign language, and so even though he could hear a little, 512 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: he communicated through American Sign Language and not the PSC 513 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: or Pigeon Signed English that oral deaf students used. Bernie 514 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: was able to interpret for his friends, though, since he 515 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: could tell better when someone was speaking and he could 516 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: read lips very well. Even though he was so adept 517 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: in the hearing world, his communication was truly in the 518 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: syntax of a s L and not English, which is 519 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: another reason that's closed captioning does not help many of 520 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: the culturally deaf, since they do not think an English syntax. 521 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: Therefore the words that they are seeing don't make sense 522 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: because they're not in the right order, and many of 523 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: them don't read English very well. I've worked in the 524 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: public school system and the college system interpreting for the 525 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: death and one of the main classes the culturally deaf 526 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: must attend is E S O L or English of 527 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: Speaker English for speakers of other languages. I remember having 528 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: many conversations with deaf friends, co workers, and clients who 529 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: expressed passionate opinions on each side of the deaf culture issue. 530 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: There were those who absolutely did not want to look 531 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: strange and so wanted to keep the sign language interpretation 532 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: very low key, and those who did not want to 533 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: see anything but the lecture signed and nothing extra like 534 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: jokes or comments from the hearing students. The two factions 535 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: were very much at odds with each other. Like I said, 536 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: it has been ten years, but I really think there 537 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: is a very definite divide even now between those two communities. 538 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: And then I'm going to conclude with a story that 539 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: she shares uh before the letter goes on, and she says, 540 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: one time I was interpreting for a personal friend who 541 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: was deaf and also a co worker. She was a 542 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: guest at a women's club and the object was to 543 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: educate the ladies about deaf culture. One of the questions 544 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: she was asked was how do you handle your disability? 545 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: I think the lady wanted the deaf friends to explain 546 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: if she felt living in a hearing world was difficult 547 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: or if she thought she handled it well. I am 548 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: not handicapped, she's shot back. When I signed the question 549 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: to her, you are handicapped, she signed, I can communicate 550 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: with you, but you cannot communicate with me. Uh. That 551 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: is where I'm going to end the letter, um, partly 552 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: because that's only about half of the letters. She had 553 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: all kinds of awesome, awesome information in it. But that's 554 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: similar to a story that I King Jordan's told in 555 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: the the address that he gave it my alma moderate 556 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: that I saw um where he was talking about when 557 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: people who can hear come to galidet to Uh to visit, 558 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: and they go to the restaurant on campus at the school, 559 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: like a hearing person is definitely the person who's in 560 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: a position of having a handicap because the cook is 561 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: deaf and the servers are all deaf and when he 562 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: was there. He was not sure if they still did it, 563 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: but when he was there that the way that they 564 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: dealt with us was that they would leave pads of 565 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: notepaper on the tables for the hearing people. So it 566 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: was he was definitely talking about how disability is is 567 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: contextual and there are definitely circumstances where a person that 568 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: could be described as quote having a disability is absolutely 569 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: not disabled in any way. Um. So yeah, I really 570 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: appreciated having that story from Stephanie. If you would like 571 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: to write to s you can. 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