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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hello friends, today,

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Speaker 1: I am absolutely geeking out because we are joined by

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite writers and researchers of all time,

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Speaker 1: Rebecca Traster, is here with us today. Tracer's first book,

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Speaker 1: the nonfiction Big Girls Don't Cry. The Election That Changed

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Speaker 1: Everything for American Women, came out in twenty ten and

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Speaker 1: was a New York Times Notable book. Her second nonfiction book,

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Speaker 1: All the Single Ladies, Unmarried Women and the Rise of

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Speaker 1: an Independent Nation in twenty sixteen, became a New York

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Speaker 1: Times bestseller and is one of the most well researched,

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Speaker 1: deeply informative examinations of women's bids for independence and power

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Speaker 1: spanning centuries. In twenty eighteen, Tracer published another book, Good

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Speaker 1: and Mad, The Revolutionary Power of Women's Anger, which I

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Speaker 1: think is hands down one of the best books I

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Speaker 1: have ever read. And in addition to being an award

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Speaker 1: winning writer covering women, politics, media, and entertainment from a

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Speaker 1: feminist perspective, Traster is a mother. She is married to

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Speaker 1: a public defender. She is an incredible human who really

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Speaker 1: has perspectives on justice and equity and how we all

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Speaker 1: participate in a society that's built for everyone that I

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Speaker 1: am so so grateful for. And today I'm going to

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Speaker 1: ask her a million questions about what she thinks is

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Speaker 1: going to happen next week, and how no matter what happens,

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Speaker 1: we can continue organizing and building power to build a

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Speaker 1: more equitable society, especially for US ladies. Let's hear from

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Speaker 1: Rebecca Chaster. I am so amped to have you here.

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Speaker 1: I am an enormous fan of your work. I so

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Speaker 1: appreciate the way that you make research feel sexy and

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Speaker 1: inspiring and like something people want to do. I don't

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Speaker 1: think that that is incredibly common, and so thank you

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Speaker 1: and your twenty eleven book, Big Girls Don't Cry investigated

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Speaker 1: the impact of the two thousand and eight election on

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Speaker 1: American politics and women and feminism, and you have continued

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Speaker 1: that trend, obviously with the book in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering if you can.

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Speaker 1: Give folks a little bit of the landscape of this.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you think about the last close to

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Speaker 1: twenty years now of your research, what do you see?

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Speaker 1: How would you explain our current political moment with the

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Speaker 1: thing that tends to be missing historical context for the

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Speaker 1: folks at home.

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Speaker 3: Your question is terrific.

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Speaker 4: I've been thinking so much about it in these days

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Speaker 4: and weeks as we get closer to this like really

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Speaker 4: truly existential election, and there's sort of a I think

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Speaker 4: you know, people are like, Oh, they tell us it's

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Speaker 4: the most important election every election. Yes, that's true, because

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Speaker 4: it is. There isn't an election that's not important. But

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Speaker 4: what we are looking at now is, and I'm going

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Speaker 4: to return to the basis of your question in part

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Speaker 4: with this answer, we are looking at a choice between

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Speaker 4: a candidate and actually what his party has become that

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Speaker 4: wants to actually destroy the very mechanisms of not only democracy,

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Speaker 4: but like how the country works, what protections are in

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Speaker 4: place for people, how the country was built around at

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Speaker 4: least the idealized possibility of delivering resources and stability. I

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Speaker 4: don't want to pretend we've ever completely followed through on

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Speaker 4: that right or provided what everybody needs. But you know,

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Speaker 4: we're talking about breaking healthcare systems, breaking legal systems, breaking

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Speaker 4: the free press, breaking the way that that Congress works, right,

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Speaker 4: and you've seen it. That's not hyperbole, right, it's not hyperbole.

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Speaker 4: Even stretching back to before Trump himself, when you had

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Speaker 4: a Supreme Court seat that should have been filled by

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Speaker 4: the sitting president stolen as part of an effort to

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Speaker 4: stack a Supreme Court, a court that has successfully followed

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Speaker 4: through on a lot of right wing aims, including overturning

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Speaker 4: Roe v. Wade, gutting affirmative action, creating like enormous labor

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Speaker 4: and environmental problems. Why is this all happening now? Why

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Speaker 4: are we in the middle of it? Why are we

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Speaker 4: living through this? This is not the kinds of story

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Speaker 4: about the United States that many of our parents or

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Speaker 4: grandparents told. And so that gets back to your question

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Speaker 4: about the stuff that I've written about. It's now been

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Speaker 4: when I started doing the work of covering women in

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Speaker 4: politics and media, and I didn't initially set out to

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Speaker 4: be like a femin political reporter at all.

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Speaker 3: I didn't even set out to be a journalist. And

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Speaker 3: I came of age.

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Speaker 4: I'm in my late forties now, and I came of

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Speaker 4: age at a time in the nineties when feminism when

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Speaker 4: there was a like still a very strong anti feminist

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Speaker 4: backlash that had happened after the sort of second wave

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Speaker 4: nineteen seventies feminist what we call the Women's movement, alongside,

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Speaker 4: of course the gay rights movement, the civil rights movement.

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Speaker 4: There had been this very conservative Reagan Bush era anti

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Speaker 4: feminist freeze, and that's what I grew up in. And

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Speaker 4: when I started covering the world from a feminist perspective,

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Speaker 4: I had no idea I would be writing about politics.

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Speaker 4: In fact, my first few campaigns that I had to

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Speaker 4: write political coverage of, even from a feminist perspective, I

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Speaker 4: was writing about daughters and mothers. And it wasn't until

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Speaker 4: you know, like the wives of the candidates, meet Teresa

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Speaker 4: Hines Kerry, who was John Carey's wife, who was fascinating.

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Speaker 4: But it wasn't until the two thousand and eight election

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Speaker 4: when suddenly, on major tickets you had candidates who were

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Speaker 4: not like presidential candidates we've seen before. There was Barack

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Speaker 4: Obama obviously, who won that election, won that primary, and

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Speaker 4: his remarkable wife, Michelle Obama, who is still very central

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Speaker 4: to this election. I just wrote a piece about a

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Speaker 4: speech she gave last week. Yes, Hillary Clinton, John McCain,

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Speaker 4: the Republican candidate for president, nominated Sarah Palin. There were

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Speaker 4: all these issues that had never had this kind of

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Speaker 4: focused before in a presidential context, around gender, around race,

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Speaker 4: around class which was certainly a lot of the conversation

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Speaker 4: around Palin herself. Now, the people at the top of

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Speaker 4: the ticket aren't the whole story. It's also what that

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Speaker 4: says about how the country's changing and making space for

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Speaker 4: people in places where they're different kinds of people, where

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Speaker 4: historically there hadn't been space for those kinds of people.

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Speaker 4: So the idea that we somehow fix things with the

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Speaker 4: civil rights movement, fixed things with a women's movement is

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Speaker 4: all a little bit mythical. Things change, they're very disruptive.

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Speaker 4: Suddenly there's room for people to have econo social sexual

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Speaker 4: powers that they hadn't that hadn't previously been on offer

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Speaker 4: for them. But that takes a lot of time in

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Speaker 4: many generations of progress. And I think what's happened in

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Speaker 4: the past twenty years politically and socially is you've seen

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Speaker 4: all of these kinds of promises of those mid twentieth

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Speaker 4: century social movements may manifest so that you actually have

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Speaker 4: people who are not straight white men doing everything from

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Speaker 4: running for president, winning a presidency, securing major party nominations,

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Speaker 4: making up more of our elected bodies like in federal

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Speaker 4: congressional level, and.

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Speaker 3: Also in our state and local governments.

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Speaker 4: You see more people who are not white men running corporations.

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Speaker 4: You see more people who are not straight and white

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Speaker 4: men having all different kinds of family configurations, you know,

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Speaker 4: marriage equality and people postponing. I had a second book

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Speaker 4: that was about changing marriage patterns in the United States.

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Speaker 4: That's a huge part of it too. It's not just

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Speaker 4: the people who are running for president. It's and think

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Speaker 4: about and how much of that is being discussed in

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Speaker 4: this presidential context where JD. Vance is going nuts on

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Speaker 4: child ass cat ladies right. Marriage patterns were changing. The

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Speaker 4: ways that we understood gender and race and what categories

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Speaker 4: people were in were really in flux, not just on

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Speaker 4: a presidential stage, but in our homes, in our lives.

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Speaker 4: You look at me too, the sort of saying and

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Speaker 4: that had been building for years, going back to Anita Hill,

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Speaker 4: going back to the moment that we first understood what

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Speaker 4: sexual harassment was, which was really coming out of the

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Speaker 4: seventies and eighties. It takes time for these things to change,

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Speaker 4: and then they can happen in really eruptive ways that

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Speaker 4: are disruptive and then to and make people uncomfortable because

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Speaker 4: they're not familiar. And some of that is natural then

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Speaker 4: what you get and what we are living through and

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Speaker 4: are living with and are on the brink of being.

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Speaker 3: Ruled by is this incredible?

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Speaker 4: That discomfort and the people who are discomfited, the people

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Speaker 4: who feel like I don't understand how this works.

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Speaker 3: I don't understand what lives are supposed to be like if.

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Speaker 4: They're not sorted along these hierarchies of power and resources.

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Speaker 3: This makes me uncomfortable. Am I losing something?

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Speaker 4: A lot of that begins to coalesce around a political movement,

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Speaker 4: and you see the rise of a hardcore right that

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Speaker 4: precedes Donald Trump, the Tea Party. Sarah Palin was a

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Speaker 4: part of that. Actually, even as a female candidate. Right,

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Speaker 4: these things aren't easy. You don't just draw clear lines

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Speaker 4: around people's identity, and it builds and builds, And it

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Speaker 4: was the Tea Party that really started making the sort

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Speaker 4: of most recent aggressive push, for example, against reproductive healthcare,

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Speaker 4: voting again and again and again to defund plant parenthood.

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Speaker 4: Even when they didn't succeed, they were building this force

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Speaker 4: and they were taking over with this very hard right rhetoric.

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Speaker 4: And then you see the rise of Donald Trump, who

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Speaker 4: comes to power on a racist birtherism argument about, you know,

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Speaker 4: the idea that Barack Obama's presidency is somehow illegitimate, that

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Speaker 4: he wasn't born here, that he's not a real American.

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Speaker 3: That takes us.

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Speaker 4: There's a direct straight line and from the rally, the

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Speaker 4: horrible rally that just happened last week in at Madison

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Speaker 4: Square Garden, where Trump's advisor Stephen Miller says America for Americans,

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Speaker 4: and you have a Republican convention where people are holding

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Speaker 4: up signs that say mass deportation. Now it's this incredible, punitive, violent,

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Speaker 4: We've seen the violence.

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Speaker 3: This is the January sixth.

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Speaker 4: Backlash response, desire to put down those changes in terms

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Speaker 4: of who can participate in new ways. And so that

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Speaker 4: is the I mean, I don't know, that's probably I

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Speaker 4: don't know if that's the answer you were looking for

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Speaker 4: or not. But that's the way that I see these

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Speaker 4: past twenty years in which I have been writing writing

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Speaker 4: about power. You know, at first, I think I would

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Speaker 4: have said I was just a feminist journalist and then

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Speaker 4: but I didn't have any kind of race or class analysis.

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Speaker 4: When I first started writing about this stuff. I was

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Speaker 4: not well.

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Speaker 3: Schooled in it.

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Speaker 4: Increasingly, I think of what I write about as power

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Speaker 4: and shifting ideas of who's allowed to have power, who's

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Speaker 4: allowed to have certain kinds of authority and voices, and

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Speaker 4: that is it is changing all around us, and we

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Speaker 4: can see it from the people at the top of

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Speaker 4: the systems to the way that many of us live

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Speaker 4: our lives now, which is very different from how our

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Speaker 4: parents or grandparents might have structured their lives. But those changes,

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Speaker 4: which for the most part imperfectly get us in just

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Speaker 4: closer to something a little more equal than what the

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Speaker 4: country than the power distributions the country was founded on

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Speaker 4: and built around, also provoke this violent resistance, and that

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Speaker 4: is the clash that we're in the middle of right now.

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Speaker 3: It is like, you know, epic battle, and it won't

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Speaker 3: be one or loss.

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Speaker 4: Like there's a huge step, a huge, huge, necessary step

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Speaker 4: in terms of the election on Tuesday, yes, but it's

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Speaker 4: not as though if one party wins that's the end

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Speaker 4: of this battle. This is going to be the rest

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Speaker 4: of all of our lives, no matter who wins.

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Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors who make this

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Speaker 1: show possible, Well, when you think about, you know, the

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Speaker 1: sorts of violence that people dealt with generations ago, you know,

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Speaker 1: klu Klux Klan violence, the Jim Crow South like these

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Speaker 1: those things were born out of the rage and the

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Speaker 1: backlash against emancipation. Exactly exactly I think people need to understand,

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Speaker 1: particularly in this moment where so many people want to.

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Speaker 2: See change happen immediately.

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Speaker 1: For example, with the economy, you know, people will say, well,

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Speaker 1: I was better off in twenty sixteen, and it's like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, you had Barack Obama's economy. He spent eight

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Speaker 1: years rescuing America from a Republican recession. If you study

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Speaker 1: the data on the economy, That's pretty much been the

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Speaker 1: story with presidencies since the you know, mid nineteen sixties.

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Speaker 1: Democrats rescue us from the debt that Republicans get us into.

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Speaker 1: So the idea that they're better, that Republicans are better

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Speaker 1: for the economy is actually a farce.

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Speaker 2: And the reason I.

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Speaker 1: Bring up the economy is because a lot of people

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Speaker 1: love to say to two women talking about equality in

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Speaker 1: America that we're on our moral high horse and that

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Speaker 1: you know, what you've really got to focus on is

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Speaker 1: how people are paying their bills, and then you can

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Speaker 1: talk about your feelings. And I'm like, well, actually it's

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Speaker 1: all connected. One of the things that I find fascinating,

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Speaker 1: you know about what you're talking about, what you've been

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Speaker 1: studying for the last twenty years, the shifts in power

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Speaker 1: is how unabashed about the power grabs the right is.

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Speaker 1: When Mitch McConnell brags that his forty year plan to

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Speaker 1: defund public education and to make people more radically right

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Speaker 1: wing is working. I think it's pretty wild that he'd

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Speaker 1: say it out loud.

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Speaker 2: When JD.

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Speaker 1: Vance goes after childless cat ladies and then tries to

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Speaker 1: say it's a joke, it's.

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Speaker 2: It's not a joke.

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Speaker 1: It's a palatable way for him to sell his idea,

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Speaker 1: which actually, for our friends at home, as Rebecca as

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Speaker 1: an expert on is about ending women's autonomy, not just

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Speaker 1: around abortion, but even ending no fault divorce. Yes, and

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Speaker 1: to be clear, prior to no fault divorce existing, the

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Speaker 1: rates of women being killed by their domestic partners and

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Speaker 1: husbands was exponentially higher than it is today. No fault

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Speaker 1: divorce has actually saved women and children's lives, and they

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Speaker 1: want to end it so we can't get out of

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Speaker 1: terrible marriages, abusive marriages, so that they can claim a

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Speaker 1: statistical win on how many people are staying married, no

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Speaker 1: matter what those marriages look like within the four walls

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Speaker 1: of their home. So we have to understand that these

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Speaker 1: aren't just gotcha's and political points scoring with inappropriate quote

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Speaker 1: unquote jokes on Twitter. But this really is a battle

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Speaker 1: for who gets to survive, because when we desire power

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Speaker 1: and equality, it's not to kill men, it's not to

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Speaker 1: kill right wingers, but when they didn't demand power over us,

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Speaker 1: and when they deny our equality, we often die.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 4: And that's very literal, and I think that, I mean,

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Speaker 4: I have been whole acts in the past couple of

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Speaker 4: days by the couple of stories that have been reported

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Speaker 4: out of Texas.

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Speaker 3: And it's not surprised. It's just horror and grief.

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Speaker 4: You know, today this morning, there's as the morning that

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Speaker 4: we're recording this, there was a story about a teenager

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Speaker 4: who was denied medical care and went to three emergency

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Speaker 4: rooms and had her mother with her and died. And

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Speaker 4: and yesterday was a story about a woman who couldn't

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Speaker 4: get because of the abortion laws in Texas, could not

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Speaker 4: get the care she needed and died of sepsis.

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Speaker 3: And this is not you know, so the.

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Speaker 4: Death that you're talking about literal, the suffering, the pain,

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Speaker 4: the violence, the economic hardship. Right.

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Speaker 3: You talked about the economy.

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Speaker 4: For years when I was younger, political analysts separated reproductive

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Speaker 4: healthcare into this category that was like, you know, culture wars,

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Speaker 4: as if it were you know, without understanding that repredictive

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Speaker 4: justice is entirely tied up with how many of us

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Speaker 4: experience the economy in our homes, questions of whether, if

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Speaker 4: and under what circumstances we have children, whether there are

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Speaker 4: benefits in place. I mean, when people talk about the

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Speaker 4: economy under Biden versus under Trump, I think people Joe

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Speaker 4: Biden's administration, which included some of the best economic policy

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Speaker 4: of my lifetime and the best And I was not

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Speaker 4: I have never been a huge Joe Biden person, right,

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Speaker 4: and my politics actually are to the left of his.

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Speaker 3: Decades.

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Speaker 4: But he actually hired a group of progressive economists who

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Speaker 4: you know, the child tax.

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Speaker 3: Credit, which slashed child's poverty.

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Speaker 2: By over fifty percent.

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Speaker 3: Over fifty percent.

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Speaker 4: The opposition that bleets about, you know, oh the bad economy. No,

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Speaker 4: under Joe Biden, child poverty was cut in half. That is,

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Speaker 4: that's in households, that's families.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And what people forget about this is again, Biden

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Speaker 1: was able to bring us back from the worst economic

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Speaker 1: devastation in one hundred years without triggering a recession, which

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Speaker 1: even the most progressive economists said was impossible, and he did.

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Speaker 3: We thought it was impossible, and he did it. And

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Speaker 3: he did it.

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Speaker 4: By infusing money, giving money to people.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and everyone who's saying, well, but I was better

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Speaker 1: off in twenty seventeen with my taxes than I am now,

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Speaker 1: I would just like to remind everyone that that was

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Speaker 1: still Obama's tax policy for the.

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Speaker 2: First couple of years of Donald Trump's presidency.

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Speaker 1: And when Donald Trump passed his tax cuts for the wealthy,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly your taxes went up. And now you think

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Speaker 1: that's Joe Biden's fault because he's currently the president.

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump's tax policy.

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Speaker 1: Is in law until next year, until twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: so we are currently living with.

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Speaker 2: Trump's tax policy.

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Speaker 1: And despite that, Joe Biden was able to cut child

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Speaker 1: poverty in half, despite that, he was able to pass

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Speaker 1: the infrastructure bill, despite that, he was able to pass

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Speaker 1: the American Rescue Plan and not trigger a recession.

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Speaker 4: And the student loan forgiveness that Billy happened under Joe Biden. Again,

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Speaker 4: sometimes when we talk in numbers, I don't think people,

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Speaker 4: because what we're always told by political pundits who want

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Speaker 4: us to imagine an average voter that, oh, you know,

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Speaker 4: the average voters I know in my life are like

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Speaker 4: I had tens of thousands of dollars of student debt

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Speaker 4: that had been hanging over my head for decades, and

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Speaker 4: it's given. It changed the daily economic law lives of

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Speaker 4: lots and lots of regular people. And when we talk

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Speaker 4: when when Kamala Harris talks about the things that she

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Speaker 4: would like to do, things that could not get done

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Speaker 4: under Biden, even though they tried, for example, around care policy,

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Speaker 4: you know, making it more affordable for Americans and their

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Speaker 4: pocketbook issues, to care for elder family members, to have

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Speaker 4: paid leave, to be able to afford child care.

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Speaker 3: These are all tied in.

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Speaker 4: Again to these questions around reproductive health, among other things,

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Speaker 4: What can we afford? What sheep can our families take

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Speaker 4: should we want to have them? What kinds of costs

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Speaker 4: are we going to incur when we think about childcare,

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Speaker 4: When when we think about access to good education, when

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Speaker 4: we think about access to health care for ourselves and

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Speaker 4: for the children who will eventually grow. You know, these

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Speaker 4: are all economic questions and they're all tied together, and

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Speaker 4: you are right that the thing at I would say

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Speaker 4: that a thing that has changed in the in since

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Speaker 4: Obama has become president, since Obama became president, I think,

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Speaker 4: and I think it's there's no more sophisticated answer than that, like,

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Speaker 4: there was an enormous racist backlash to Obama's ascension, and

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Speaker 4: that it came hand in hand with a misogynistic backlash

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Speaker 4: to the fact, you know, the fact that there were

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Speaker 4: so many women in play, you know, Clinton as the

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Speaker 4: presumed successor to Obama.

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Speaker 3: Like all of this was happening, there was.

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Speaker 4: This period in which there was a story that people

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Speaker 4: could tell about how non white, non male people were

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Speaker 4: gobbling up shares that they hadn't previously had, thus depriving others,

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Speaker 4: and it spurred a part of this intense and very

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Speaker 4: openly racist and sexist backlash. And I think that openness

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Speaker 4: is something that has changed in the years after the

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Speaker 4: Civil rights movement and the Women's movement. I think that

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Speaker 4: a Republican party actually wanted a lot of the same

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Speaker 4: things Ronald Reagan, you know, vilified welfare moms and and

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Speaker 4: and by the way, Democrats including Bill you know, Bill Clinton,

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Speaker 4: gutted welfare. There was this a lot of the policies

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Speaker 4: around the economy certainly had an.

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Speaker 3: Impact that was.

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Speaker 4: That was particularly acute for women, for people of color.

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Speaker 3: You know, that was all true, but people were polite

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 4: People tried to pretend that that was not that was

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Speaker 4: not a motivating factor, that it was that that racism

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Speaker 4: and misogyny, disregard and resent for and resentment of people

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Speaker 4: who were not the kind of people who historically had

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Speaker 4: been in charge and been the beneficiaries of so many

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Speaker 4: rights and resources.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: They tried to pretend that it wasn't about that this

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Speaker 4: was just about sensible government or what you know, and

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Speaker 4: that has fallen away the pretense so that that's how

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Speaker 4: you get and it's not.

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Speaker 3: It's building.

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Speaker 4: It still has the capacity to shock the Madison Square Garden.

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Speaker 4: The horrifying jokes about Puerto Ricans, black people, Jews, Palestinians,

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Speaker 4: accompanied by stuff like Stephen you know, that's oh, it's

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Speaker 4: a comedian. But you had Steven Miller shouting Americas for Americans.

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Speaker 4: You had Rudy Giuliani talking about Palestinians, as you know,

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Speaker 4: born within at two years old, taught to kill people,

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Speaker 4: I mean, horrifying the humanizing language.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, whether it's Rudy Giuliani or the

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Speaker 1: quote unquote comedian, I want to be very clear with

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Speaker 1: people at home. When you speak at an event with

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Speaker 1: a presidential candidate, every word that comes out of your

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Speaker 1: mouth is vetted and approved. It's on a teleprompter, right.

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Speaker 1: Those things were approved and co signed by that campaign.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that I feel like I

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Speaker 1: have to up with you that I find so disturbing

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Speaker 1: that hasn't even made the news because the Nazi wannabe

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Speaker 1: rally was so disturbing on every level, is that one

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Speaker 1: of the references made in that set was about how

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Speaker 1: we should expect Travis Kelce to be the next O. J.

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Speaker 2: Simpson.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, how this football player was gonna unlive his beautiful,

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Speaker 1: successful girlfriend. The violence against women, the way that they

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Speaker 1: call for it, the way that they find it funny,

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Speaker 1: the way that they're trying to ensure that we die

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Speaker 1: and operate in emergency rooms and potentially in our homes

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Speaker 1: at the hands of violent spouses, is not lost on me.

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Speaker 1: Here and just this morning, on the day you and

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Speaker 1: I are recording, which is two days before this episode

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Speaker 1: will air, we had Donald Trump sitting on a stage

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Speaker 1: calling for Liz Cheney to.

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Speaker 3: Be executed by a firing squad.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and yet people say they don't really mean it,

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Speaker 1: They say it couldn't really happen here.

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Speaker 4: Well, they say that at the same time that they

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Speaker 4: spin fictions about how a purported woke left is hunting

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Speaker 4: down Donald Trump. You know this, the the fictions that

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Speaker 4: they are putting out into the ether, that the that

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Speaker 4: the attempt made on Donald Trump's life was somehow instigated

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Speaker 4: by the left, when in fact the shooter was a

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Speaker 4: registered Republican. You know, this is not there's there's no correlation.

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Speaker 4: But right, so so they can I mean, and this

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Speaker 4: is one of the things.

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Speaker 3: And I wrote a lot about.

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Speaker 4: This in Good and Mad, my book about women's anger,

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Speaker 4: about one of the ways that power works is that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, please break this down for us. This is so good.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to try to I'm going to try to remember.

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Speaker 4: I haven't I haven't talked about this conversationally in a while,

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Speaker 4: so I hope I can remember the sort of what

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Speaker 4: the tools that I had to make this clear. But

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Speaker 4: I'll tell you the first time it became clear to

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Speaker 4: me this particular dynamic, and the dynamic is that when

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Speaker 4: power is challenged in any way, in a way that's

440
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 4: not because power is supposed to go from the most

441
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 4: powerful to somebody who has less power. When that is

442
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 4: reversed in any way, one of the first moves of

443
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 4: the entity with more power is to claim victimhood, to

444
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 4: claim to behave as though it.

445
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 3: Has been stripped of all its power.

446
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 4: So there are a million examples of this, but I

447
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 4: will tell you the first time that I saw it

448
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 4: as a reporter was in twenty well, that I noticed

449
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 4: it and was able to identify it in a way

450
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 4: that was happening around me. It was in the week

451
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 4: of Freddie Gray's murder in Baltimore. Freddie Gray was a

452
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 4: young black man who was taken on a rough ride

453
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 4: by Baltimore police and died. Was killed, and there were

454
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 4: protests in the wake of his death, and the protesters threw.

455
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 3: Rocks at police cars.

456
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 4: And when this was covered by the major media, the

457
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 4: way it was covered was the violence began when protesters

458
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 4: started throwing rocks, and I as somebody in the media

459
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 4: was reading this coverage and this was not right wing.

460
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 4: This is not Fox, this is like you know, CNN

461
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 4: the times, this is mainstream media. And it was one

462
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 4: of the first times in my life that I was

463
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 4: just hit in the face with the reality. Wait, the

464
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 4: violence started when protesters threw rocks, So the violence didn't

465
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 4: count as violence. There wasn't a commencement of disruption when

466
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 4: the cops killed this young man. That wasn't the beginning

467
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 4: of That wasn't the beginning of the violence. Violence only

468
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 4: became discernible when protesters, people whose only weapons against armed

469
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 4: cops were rocks. That was the moment that the people

470
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 4: in charge of telling the stories the media could visualize

471
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 4: violence starting. The other stuff was natural, that's just how

472
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 4: it's supposed to happen. But when it happens in the

473
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 4: direction where the people have less power make a move

474
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 4: against the entity with more power, it because it's unusual,

475
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 4: because it's disruptive, that becomes the thing. You could see

476
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 4: it around Me Too constantly. In all the talk about

477
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 4: which hunts and the mob, you know, what was happening

478
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 4: during Me Too was that people who had were telling

479
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 4: stories of having been wholly disempowered right in one way

480
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 4: or another, sexual harassment and sexual assault by powerful people,

481
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 4: people who ran you know, companies, movie studios, who had

482
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,239
Speaker 4: political power that you know, there were there were so

483
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 4: many stories that had gone untold in many cases for decades,

484
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 4: and the people who had had no power, who in

485
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 4: some cases had signed away their voice even in nondisclosure agreements,

486
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 4: were using the only and who'd had their careers ruined,

487
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 4: who'd lost money, who had had you know, physical violence

488
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 4: done to them, psychological violence done to them, right, who

489
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 4: suffered while the perpetrators had remained powerful, continued to earn,

490
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 4: continue to gain more power, those are economic right and

491
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 4: then when those people who had been stripped of their power,

492
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,959
Speaker 4: their place, you know, it had been heard, spoke up

493
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 4: and there was a moment in which there was a.

494
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: Flood of those voices.

495
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 4: And yes, some of those powerful people that they were

496
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 4: accusing lost jobs, lost money, lost their positions of power.

497
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 3: And the way that it was framed in so much

498
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 3: media was that it was a.

499
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 4: Mob right, that it was a that it was a

500
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 4: witch hunt, that the victims were these guys who were

501
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 4: falling prey to this mob violence, and it was such.

502
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 3: A reversal of the actual power dynamics in play.

503
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: Yes, that they were somehow being victimized rather than being

504
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,719
Speaker 1: held accountable. Right, we'll be back in just a minute,

505
00:28:54,040 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: but here's a word from our sponsors. I mean, God,

506
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: Good and Mad is for our friends at home. It's

507
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: such an amazing book. And if you're trying to figure

508
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: out how we got here and you haven't read it yet,

509
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: that's where you start. But it really makes me think

510
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: a lot about the article that you wrote this year

511
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: for New York magazine about Republican women.

512
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: I mean, you.

513
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: Literally wrote an article called how did Republican women end up?

514
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 4: Like this?

515
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: And it is incredibly difficult, knowing what we know, all

516
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: these things that we're talking about, to see women vote

517
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: against their own self interest, no matter what policy debates

518
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: you want to have or whatever, to vote for a

519
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: party that believes you are more akin to property than

520
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: to a person, it's really it's alarming. And I understand

521
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: that it is about this sort of psychosocial storytelling.

522
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: It's about the.

523
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: Tea of society. We've all been steeped in all of

524
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: these things.

525
00:29:58,720 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 3: How do you.

526
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 2: See the these.

527
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: Power dynamics that you started writing about then when you

528
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: had your aha moment, how would you translate them into

529
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: this moment? How do you how do you explain, you know,

530
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: the ladies from South Carolina in the front of these rallies,

531
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: like what's going on here?

532
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 4: Well, the ladies from South Carolina at the front of

533
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 4: these rallies is one of the oldest stories in this country.

534
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 4: White women have always as long as we've counted electorally,

535
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 4: and then well before that, and I'll talk about that

536
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 4: a little bit, there have always been white women not

537
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 4: only willing but eager to go to the to the

538
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 4: battle lines on behalf of white patriarchy, which yes, does

539
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 4: disempower them in terms of the patriarchy, but empowers them

540
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 4: in terms of the white supremacy. So there are a

541
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 4: couple things that I want to say about. So this

542
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 4: goes back so far, you know, during the very, very

543
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 4: long battle for women's suffrage, which did take place over decades.

544
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 4: It is so hard when we tell stories about American

545
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 4: history and progress. We so often get them in condensed

546
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 4: forms like the PBS documentary that makes it seem like

547
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 4: the Civil rights movement was some neat project that took

548
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 4: a few years, when in fact you are talking about

549
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 4: you're talking about decades and centuries of work and division

550
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 4: and collapse of alliances and rebuilding of those alliances, right,

551
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 4: that's true around you know, the abolition and suffrage movements,

552
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 4: which began as a joint project, brutally split apart, have

553
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 4: come back together. You know, the really long history for

554
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 4: all of these battles, they take forever and go through

555
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 4: many lifetimes and generations. But in parts of that battle

556
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 4: for women's suffrage, there actually were here and there votes

557
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 4: about whether women should get the right to vote, and

558
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 4: women voted against their own right to vote.

559
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 3: Right, So this is this is not new to have

560
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 3: to have.

561
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 4: You know, the story I wrote about Republican women this

562
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 4: year is about this particular sort of Trumpian era of

563
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 4: Republican women where you see a lot of esthetic changes

564
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 4: and expressive choices around women trying to express the kind

565
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 4: of root masculinity that Trump admires at the same time

566
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 4: that they try to esthetically also fit a model that

567
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 4: he likes, which is a very hyper feminized model, and

568
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 4: the sort of confusions around that. That's the piece I wrote.

569
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 4: But the broader question of why do you have white

570
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 4: women there? You know, white women were at the frontline

571
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 4: standing against school integration in the mid twentieth century. This

572
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 4: and I think that there you can't you can't answer

573
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 4: that question without going in a cup different directions.

574
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 3: Why do they do it? One is that they benefit

575
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 3: from it. They benefit And.

576
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 4: You know, my friend and colleague Britney Cooper, who wrote

577
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 4: an incredible book called Eloquent Rage about black feminist anger.

578
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 4: Brittany is the person who really taught me to think

579
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 4: about this as a structure. So within a white capitalist patriarchy,

580
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 4: there are different benefits that can accrue in different directions.

581
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 4: So you know, men of different races benefit from patriarchy

582
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 4: and women benefit from white supremacy.

583
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 3: And so there are incentives and you have.

584
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 4: To do that because if you're if you're in a

585
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 4: white patriarchy where only white men have certain kinds of power,

586
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 4: and you actually wound up with a majority that opposed you,

587
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 4: you would lose that power. So you have to create

588
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 4: incentives to ensure that there are going to be portions

589
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,479
Speaker 4: of that majority that are willing to fight for and

590
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 4: defend your unequal grip on power. And so for white

591
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 4: women there are all kinds of benefits that are true

592
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 4: to them because of their whiteness individually right earning power,

593
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 4: their own economic stability, their own access to different kinds

594
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 4: of resources, to healthcare, to education, to you know, whiteness

595
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 4: has benefits. It is also true that if within a

596
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 4: white patriarchy, being willing to fight on behalf of the

597
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,919
Speaker 4: white men who are at the top of that structure,

598
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 4: white women are attached to those white men, sometimes as

599
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 4: spouses or partners, as daughters, as sisters, as others, And

600
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 4: so there are all kinds of incentives in place for

601
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 4: women to do this and are motivated by all kinds

602
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 4: of the same reasons that human beings are motivated by

603
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 4: racism and by misogyny, the desire to make yourself feel

604
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 4: by making someone else smaller than you. It is a

605
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 4: him an instinct sadly in many cases, to feel good

606
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 4: by making others feel bad.

607
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and I think about it particularly. I'd be

608
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 1: curious to know your thoughts on this, that it's almost

609
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: this kind of flywheel for women who look like us, right,

610
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: because when you have experienced you know, oppression and gender

611
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: violence and reduction and salary and all the things that

612
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: we have because we are women. I think when you

613
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 1: haven't really like dug down to the depths of what

614
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: this supremacist patriarchy does to everyone involved. Your husband might

615
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: be the one who makes you feel safe. Your dad

616
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: might have been a bully, but he's familiar to you.

617
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: And perhaps you're more willing to go with a familiar

618
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: bully who's friendly sometimes than you are willing to take

619
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: a leap into the unknown.

620
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 2: And risk it.

621
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: All right, And I wonder about how deep lea subconscious,

622
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: that very tribal kind of fear of risk, of scarcity

623
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: that affects everybody is. And I think if you're unwilling

624
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: to examine it, you wind up being You wind up

625
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: being an agent of harm rather than an agent of change.

626
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 4: Right, I would also say that I think that's exactly right.

627
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 4: I think that they are all kinds of the Other

628
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 4: thing is that we structurally create dependency relationships.

629
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 3: That makes it very difficult.

630
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 4: That's one of the things I wrote about a lot

631
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 4: in my second book, All the Single Ladies, which was

632
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 4: about changed marriage patterns, and I.

633
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 3: Really could not ever have predicted in a million years.

634
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 4: I mean, I have to tell you that when we

635
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 4: entered this election season, I did not think nobody needed

636
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 4: to hear anything else I was ever going to say

637
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 4: about Joe Biden. I did not think I was going

638
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 4: to be reporting on an election season until Kamala Harris

639
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 4: became the nominee. And then suddenly we've had this season

640
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 4: where these three books I've written on very different topics. Actually, right,

641
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 4: I am a journalist who very broadly covers women, but

642
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 4: like one was about as particular election, the two thousand

643
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 4: and eight election, one was about married women, and one

644
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 4: is about angry women.

645
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 3: But suddenly all three of them are sort.

646
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 4: Of woven into what we have been living through for

647
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 4: the past y Yes.

648
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 2: They're so incredibly relevant all over again.

649
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 4: And I could never have anticipated that. But in one

650
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 4: of the things I thought a lot about when I

651
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,959
Speaker 4: wrote All the Single Ladies is why is there such

652
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 4: a conservative.

653
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 3: Drive that is so on view with Vance and with

654
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 3: you know, and.

655
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 4: Even with Trump, who's had three wives and millions of affairs.

656
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 3: And I mean, you know, what is this thing with marriage?

657
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 4: Well? Marriage, you know, we have all kinds of mechanisms

658
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 4: that romanticize it for us. And of course, you know,

659
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,919
Speaker 4: we live in a world in which there are plenty

660
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 4: of happy marriages, and love is something that human beings

661
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 4: seek out and sex and all those things. But what

662
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 4: about marriage, marriage, marriage, especially hetero marriage, it's like so fetishized.

663
00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 4: Why it's a containment mechanism, it's it and it's historic.

664
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 3: Forms very unromantically.

665
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 4: It was a way to organize power and organized responsibility too, right,

666
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 4: So it wasn't just so there was so there would

667
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 4: be pairs of people who could do the things that

668
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 4: made life in the you know, somebody to be out

669
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 4: earning money in a public way, providing economic stability, and

670
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 4: then another partner in the pair who would do the

671
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 4: domestic labor that has to get done right, that has

672
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 4: the feeding, the cooking, the childcare, all that stuff. But

673
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 4: then what that created was an economic hierarchy that created dependency,

674
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 4: and around all the social rules we made around it,

675
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 4: around sex and child bearing and everything, you wound up

676
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 4: with a structure that contained in its hetero form gender

677
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 4: along these with these lines that created a situation where

678
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 4: women were dependent on husbands. Whether you know, is it

679
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 4: the kind of physical protection you're talking about, is it economic.

680
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 3: Protection, like you literally can't leave because.

681
00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 4: You are you have been doing the labor at home,

682
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 4: or or because the workplace is structured in such a

683
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 4: way where women are still likely to make less and

684
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 4: therefore you're dependent on a partner's salary.

685
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: The number of women in my mom's peer group who

686
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:17,720
Speaker 1: could not leave, right, Like, yeah, we obvious in our grandparents' generation,

687
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: but even in our parents' generation, so many people could

688
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: not leave because of these historic economic structures.

689
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 4: And I want to say, going back to this question

690
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 4: of why do people behave the way that they do,

691
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 4: and often in these cruel, oppressive, exclusionary ways. You know,

692
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 4: I think a lot about this because I was talking

693
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 4: about white patriarchy, and it makes it sound like all

694
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 4: white people are out there living large and like you

695
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 4: benefit from it, And of course that's not the case.

696
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 4: In this country, which is riven by terrible economic inequality.

697
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 4: You have millions and millions of white people, women and

698
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 4: men are who are suffering, who are living, who cannot

699
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 4: you know, afford to live, to eat, to raise their kids,

700
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 4: to to have safe and stable housing, all that stuff.

701
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 3: And this is a big problem. You know, this is

702
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 3: a big problem.

703
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 4: Sounds so retective, like this is the core of what

704
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 4: like a left movement has been pushing toward. This is

705
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 4: the appeal of like the Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren wing

706
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 4: of the Democratic Party, the progressive wing of the Democratic Party,

707
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 4: is to acknowledge the way that economic inequality, aside from

708
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 4: these sort of identity differences, which absolutely are about distribution

709
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 4: of power and resources, but layered over with stark economic inequality,

710
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 4: where government policies of both the right and a sort

711
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 4: of centrist left have.

712
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 3: Privileged corporations and corporate entities.

713
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 4: Over regular people all the time, Which is what we're

714
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 4: talking about before when we were talking about what does

715
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 4: an economy mean when you're talking about either child tax

716
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 4: credits and child care and extended unemployment and stuff and

717
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 4: loan forgiveness that affects people we know, versus the kind

718
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 4: of corporate and wealthy tax cuts given by Donald Trump

719
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 4: that will definitely benefit Jeff be those who you know anyway.

720
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 2: Who doesn't need any more money, does.

721
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 3: Not need more money.

722
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 4: So thinking about the people with that project, think about

723
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 4: that project, Think about that left project, which should be

724
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 4: very rational in a country of millions of people, many

725
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 4: of whom are struggling with prices, with housing, with groceries,

726
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 4: with gas, like.

727
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 3: All this stuff, childcare, all this stuff.

728
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 4: But the project of build building and alternative like alternate

729
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 4: systems can feel daunting, right, sure, God, how do we

730
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 4: change these things? And it's that So there's the constructive

731
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 4: way to look at the inequalities, dissatisfactions, lack of dignity

732
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 4: and stability that our government is currently providing millions of people,

733
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 4: and there's one way to say, like a constructive way

734
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 4: to say, okay, we need to change that. But it

735
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 4: can feel like it's our systems have been built to

736
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 4: make it, make us feel like that's a hopeless project,

737
00:41:58,960 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 4: you know.

738
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 3: Or that it would take so long.

739
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,720
Speaker 4: And then there's the destructive aim, which is the messaging

740
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 4: that comes from the right that says you can blame

741
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 4: other people and that's right available to you today.

742
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, rather than blame the ones in charge, right, blame

743
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: other people, because.

744
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 4: It's true that blaming the ones in charge is really

745
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 4: hard because they have the money and the power, and

746
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 4: so getting mad at them, which is correct, is also

747
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 4: overwhelming because how can you, the person who is struggling

748
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 4: to pay for your groceries or your housing, like fight

749
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 4: Jeff Bezos and Donald Trump and these corporate oligarchs who

750
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 4: are right, you can't.

751
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 3: There's this feeling that you can't. You can, of course

752
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 3: you can you can?

753
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:46,720
Speaker 1: That's what Tuesday's about, right quite literally? On Tuesday, people

754
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: have the choice to vote for progressive policy that will

755
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: create more economic opportunity and equality, or to give even

756
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: more money to the oligarchy. So I guess I'm curious.

757
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 2: Like we look, we see the issues.

758
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: I think to study them and understand them is of

759
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: paramount importance because when you look around and you know

760
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: you're dissatisfied for whatever reason, I mean, the collective you

761
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: have to know where you come from to know what

762
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: you can build. And I am very curious because you

763
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: are an expert who I often look to to make

764
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 1: sure I know what the fuck I'm talking about. How

765
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: do you on the Sunday before the election find hope,

766
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: what inspires you to stay in the fight? How do

767
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: you think people besides you know, casting their votes for

768
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: a candidate and down ballot candidates who actually care about

769
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 1: the social fabric of our country and want to support

770
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: people and families and their children, how do you feel

771
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: like people can find some inspiration or some joy in

772
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,280
Speaker 1: their own politics today?

773
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 4: So it actually gets this question we just were touching

774
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 4: on about, like how do you fight if you are

775
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 4: at the bottom and you're looking at fighting toward the top,

776
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 4: and it comes from the stuff that I've wound up

777
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 4: learning again accidentally, I didn't set out to do the

778
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 4: kind of writing or the kind of that wasn't my

779
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 4: idea of what my career was going to be. But

780
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 4: as part of my work, I have had to learn

781
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 4: so much about American history that I wasn't taught. And

782
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 4: it goes back to what I was saying before about

783
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 4: how we were taught about these things being neat stories.

784
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 4: The United States likes to flatter itself and pat itself

785
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 4: on the back, and so it tells its stories of

786
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 4: correction to its founding and equalities as being pretty neat

787
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 4: and uplifting, and in fact, in many cases they were

788
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 4: long and brutal and violent and dispiriting. And many generations

789
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 4: of people died not seeing any movement toward making a

790
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 4: better world. And that's real, and we don't get told

791
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 4: that part of the story enough. But when you go

792
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 4: and look at you learn how long it took. But

793
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 4: you also begin to think about the fact that people

794
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:14,399
Speaker 4: who were enslaved enslaved when we talk about not having

795
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 4: any power, yes, we talk about people who were enslaved,

796
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 4: who won freedom. You talk about people who did not

797
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 4: have the franchise, who did not have access to about

798
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 4: ballot box, who could not express their political will, got

799
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 4: the right to vote. The labor when thinking about like

800
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 4: how do like little people fight back against these court

801
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 4: wealth and corporate entities. The labor movement in this country,

802
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 4: which was bloody and long and continues, but in its

803
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:56,919
Speaker 4: one a work week, one weekends, one workplace safety protections

804
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 4: often often in the aftermath of horror.

805
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 3: You know, the triangle shirtwaist factory. He was just gonna say, right.

806
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 4: So the triangle shirtwaist factory is you know, there was

807
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 4: there had been this, There was a period of.

808
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 3: Strikes.

809
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 4: There had been an uprising of shirtwaist workers who were

810
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 4: very likely to be poor immigrant women, unmarried, working in

811
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 4: these terribly dangerous shirtwaist which is a kind of blouse

812
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 4: in the early part of the twentieth century, shirtwaist factories

813
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 4: where there.

814
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 3: Were no escapes, no.

815
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 4: Ventilation, where there were toxic chemicals around, where they were

816
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 4: kept for hours at a time, doors were locked, they

817
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 4: weren't able to leave, and they were working for a

818
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,760
Speaker 4: pittance for terrible wages on which they could not support themselves.

819
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 3: Or their families.

820
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 4: They had no power, and there had been strikes, major

821
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 4: strike and the strike had won new contracts with almost

822
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 4: all the shirtwaist manufacturers, accept a couple, including one called

823
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 4: the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory, which was in Greenwich Village in

824
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 4: New York City, and it caught fire and the women

825
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 4: could not escape. The women who were working there could

826
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 4: not escape, and they died horribly in the building jumping

827
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 4: out of the building.

828
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 3: The doors were locked.

829
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 4: And people who witnessed that fire, including Francis Perkins and

830
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 4: Rose Schneiderman, and witnessed the women dying on the sidewalk

831
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 4: in New York altered the course of their lives and

832
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 4: began to make policies, for example, around workplace safety, like

833
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 4: when you go into rooms that have exit signs and

834
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 4: you have to There are now requirements on the books

835
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 4: that mean that you have to have.

836
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 3: Exits from buildings. Yeah, this is both a horrible.

837
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 4: Story and one that gives me hope a thinking about

838
00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 4: labor protections. Labor protections were one by people who had

839
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 4: no power, yes, against people who had all the power,

840
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 4: and they were one over years and through a lot

841
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 4: of suffering striking workers who lost their salaries.

842
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 3: Who were beaten, who died.

843
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 4: You know, this isn't a pretty story, but the fight

844
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 4: eventually produced changes that shape our lives today, that shape

845
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 4: the lives of workers today. And there are instances in

846
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 4: that fight, many of them in which you are witnessing

847
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 4: the horror of a burning building. And I think about

848
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,839
Speaker 4: that right now, as you know I was. I think

849
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 4: about that as I watched the Medicine Square Garden rally,

850
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:46,919
Speaker 4: as I read and think about what might happen under

851
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 4: a Trump administration and advanced administration, And I think about

852
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 4: how so much of what this party is doing is

853
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 4: trying to pull back those battles that are won, the

854
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 4: ones that give me hope, you know, for workplace protection,

855
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 4: for better wages, for all kinds of labor, protections, for

856
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 4: the vote, for productive autonomy.

857
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 3: For those are the exact things.

858
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 4: Think about the fact that that is what a contemporary

859
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,439
Speaker 4: Republican party, those exact things are what they are looking

860
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:19,720
Speaker 4: to dismantle. Why, exactly why they are looking to undo

861
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 4: the work that was done by generations of people who

862
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 4: gave their their lives and all their energies and often

863
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:31,320
Speaker 4: did not live to see any victory. Yeah, and yet

864
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:33,919
Speaker 4: there would not have been victory had they not given

865
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 4: their energies in their lives. So I think of this

866
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 4: actually as a proud inheritance, and that means a lot

867
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:47,879
Speaker 4: of things. It means it's an incentive to spend your

868
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 4: time and your energy continuing to fight and care for

869
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,240
Speaker 4: the things that the people who came before you fought

870
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 4: and cared for and gave their lives for. It is

871
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 4: also a reminder when things feel bleak, because they really do. Yes,

872
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 4: things are very bad, but that the worst thing you

873
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 4: could do when you think about the generations that came

874
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 4: before you, where things were, the setbacks, you know, were

875
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 4: as bad or worse than what we're facing today.

876
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 3: And they had many fewer tools.

877
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 4: They did not have the vote right, they did not

878
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 4: have any economic power, they did not have anything like

879
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 4: sexual liberation, they did not have anything close to some

880
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 4: of the changes we've made around gender, race and sexual equality,

881
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 4: nothing like that, and they kept going. And I think

882
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 4: that that is so important, moving into Tuesday and then

883
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 4: moving beyond because the other thing that I am obsessed

884
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 4: with and have thought about so much, and I've thought

885
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 4: about it a lot around row about the left progressives, However,

886
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 4: you want to define yourself.

887
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 3: Is that.

888
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 4: We have to get better at continuing to fight after

889
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 4: both loss and win. Yes, I don't know what's going

890
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 4: to happen on Tuesday. I do know what has happened

891
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 4: since Donald Trump won the election in twenty sixteen, and

892
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 4: that's a lot of what good and matter is about.

893
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 4: And it's interesting because a lot I see a lot

894
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 4: of my peers in journalism not take this seriously, but

895
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 4: in fact it has shaped what has happened politically in

896
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 4: the eight years since. And again I'm making no prediction

897
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 4: about Tuesday. I am just observing what has happened since

898
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 4: November ninth to now. You saw people get engaged in

899
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 4: organized and a lot of this. You know, black women

900
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 4: have been on the frontlines organizing around electoral politics, around

901
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 4: social movements for a long time, but a lot of

902
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 4: white suburban women, white middle class women who felt insulated

903
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 4: by their race and their class status, and they had

904
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 4: not experienced the kind of harms that would have kept

905
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 4: them awake. We were awakened by Donald Trump beating Hillary

906
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 4: Clinton in twenty sixteen and began to organize in ways

907
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 4: that they hadn't and the impact of that, which again

908
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 4: a lot of the political media is not telling you

909
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 4: this story right now, but it's just there. It's not

910
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 4: even this is not even like a controversial argument I'm making.

911
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 4: Democrats have done better than expected in almost every election

912
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:29,240
Speaker 4: that has happened between November ninth, twenty sixteen, and now,

913
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 4: and that includes the twenty eighteen midterms, when a group

914
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 4: of untested, first time, young, racially diverse, progressive candidates ran

915
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 4: for office and won a historic victory and the political class,

916
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 4: including Democrats, couldn't even see it coming. The night of

917
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 4: the twenty eighteen midterms, I sat, I was, you know,

918
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 4: my book Good Mad.

919
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 3: Was coming out. It had come out, I guess weeks before.

920
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 4: I'd written about the power of women's anger around elections

921
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 4: and organizing and an new generation of politicians. And I was,

922
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 4: so I was waiting for this election. And I turned

923
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 4: on my TV and James Carvell got on and said,

924
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 4: this is not the blue wave the Democrats were expecting,

925
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 4: and I thought, oh my.

926
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 3: God, we're not going to win.

927
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 4: This is all like it was the biggest blue wave

928
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 4: since the Nixon administration. They just didn't know it until

929
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 4: like a couple days later when all the votes came in.

930
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 3: It was the biggest blue wave.

931
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 4: It was a historic number of women who were sent

932
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 4: to Washington to be in Congress. You then had twenty twenty,

933
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 4: You had elections. John ossoff ran and there was for

934
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 4: a House seat in twenty seventeen, and there was unprecedented

935
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,359
Speaker 4: energy and organizing by all kinds of.

936
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 3: People in Georgia around that race.

937
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 4: He lost that congressional race in twenty seventeen, and then

938
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 4: he won a Senate race later.

939
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 3: Again, the sort.

940
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 4: Of the pulling of people who had been previously disengaged

941
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 4: into politics has produced results. The twenty twenty two midterm results,

942
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 4: the abortion reference, the flipping of majorities in Michigan and Minnesota,

943
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:11,720
Speaker 4: the Supreme Court elections in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, every abortion

944
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 4: referenda up until now, whatever happens on Tuesday, you know,

945
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 4: could change that. But up until now, every state referenda

946
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 4: on abortion access has been won, including in states like

947
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 4: Kansas and Ohio where they did everything possible to make

948
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 4: it impossible to win. So we have evidence in front

949
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 4: of us right now on Sunday, two days before an

950
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 4: election that this kind of engagement changes state laws. What

951
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 4: happened in Michigan when they elected Gretchen Whitmer and gave

952
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 4: her a trifecta.

953
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 2: Yes.

954
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,720
Speaker 3: In the Michigan everything got better in Michigan. It did.

955
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:53,280
Speaker 4: Abortion is protected in Michigan. LGBTQ rights are protected in Michigan.

956
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:55,959
Speaker 4: This is the same thing in Minnesota what Tim Walls

957
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 4: and Peggy Flanagan did with a one vote majority.

958
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 3: And look at what Tim Walls did.

959
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 4: Put put lunches, lunches, free lunches for kids in Minnesota.

960
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 4: Children can eat again. You want to talk about economic

961
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 4: issues and family values. Children eat lunches now in Minnesota

962
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 4: because people were energized and organized and voted in a majority,

963
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 4: So it is entirely possible to do this. But I

964
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 4: also want to say that when we win, we can't

965
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:27,359
Speaker 4: then be like fixed it.

966
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:29,240
Speaker 3: Because that is part of what happened.

967
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:30,879
Speaker 4: It is part of what happened when we elected Barack

968
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:32,399
Speaker 4: Obama in two thousand and eight. I wrote that book

969
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,280
Speaker 4: about that election. Everybody again America's tendency to pat itself

970
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 4: on the back was like, Wow, I guess we fixed racism.

971
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 4: That was I mean, obviously ludicristian's face. But then what

972
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 4: happened is that the coalition that built around Obama which

973
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 4: was like a social movement that helped get him into office. Yes, dispersed,

974
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 4: it was like great, we fixed it, and there was

975
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 4: no defense there for that massive, retributive, resentful, violent wave

976
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 4: of backlash against Obama.

977
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 3: That is part of what landed us Trump exactly.

978
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 4: And I say this as a person whose politics are

979
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 4: to the left. If we do elect Kamala Harris president,

980
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 4: the job will not in any way be done.

981
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:18,799
Speaker 3: There is so much to push her on.

982
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,479
Speaker 1: There's so much to push her on, and there's also

983
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 1: so much I think one of the ways I think

984
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 1: about this a lot. What you're saying is that we

985
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 1: have to be better at holding the line because the

986
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: minute we don't hold it, we get pushed back.

987
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 3: Yes, so we have to hold.

988
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 1: The line even if we win, and then we have

989
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,479
Speaker 1: to continue to push. We have to enshrine abortion rights

990
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:43,280
Speaker 1: across the country, we have to enshrine lunches for children.

991
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 2: And none of this is woke, by the way, none

992
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 2: of this is radical. This just should be it.

993
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: When you know, if you and I were asked to

994
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 1: invest in a friend's startup, let's say, and all that

995
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,879
Speaker 1: startup did was burn our money and we never saw

996
00:56:58,920 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 1: our return.

997
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 2: We wouldn't invent again.

998
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 1: Your taxes are a literal investment in a company, in

999
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,720
Speaker 1: the Company of America, and you better see a benefit.

1000
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 1: And the idea that that is somehow radical or leftist

1001
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 1: is crazy to me.

1002
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 2: It's just good. It's good economics.

1003
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 4: And that's something. I'm grateful that Tim Wallas' is on

1004
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 4: the ticket. And yes, I very much hope will be

1005
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 4: in the White House because he's so good at starticulating that.

1006
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 4: And he says, you can call me whatever you want.

1007
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 4: You can call me a communist, you can call me woke, whatever.

1008
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 4: I just want to build, build schools and feed kids

1009
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 4: and build roads. Right, that is what and that is

1010
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 4: something I have been looking for the Democratic Party to

1011
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 4: talk about his policies.

1012
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 3: That way.

1013
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 4: My long time complaint with the Democratic Party that I

1014
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 4: grew up with is that they ran away from their

1015
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 4: own shadow. When somebody said, well that makes you seem

1016
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 4: like a communist, they really good.

1017
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 3: You know, I really do want to like tax of the.

1018
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 1: Ridge, and now a word from our sponsors. I look

1019
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: at our party and I'm like, guys, you just have

1020
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 1: to talk about the pragmatism progress. Yes, this is literally pragmatic.

1021
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: We are solving math problems. We are making things more efficient,

1022
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 1: We are making sure people don't go hungry, people don't

1023
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 1: die of preventable disease, Like this isn't supposed to be complicated.

1024
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 1: My question for you actually is kind of based on that. Like,

1025
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: clearly we agree on we're two progressive women, you know,

1026
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: we agree in policies that benefit all, and we're also

1027
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 1: not Pollyennish about it. We are talking about what really

1028
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 1: is pragmatic and good for people, and on that sort

1029
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: of idea of I don't want to call it logical progress.

1030
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 1: I want to call it earned and owed progress. I

1031
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 1: understand how that sort of fits into the political landscape

1032
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 1: of what.

1033
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 2: We're talking about.

1034
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 1: But when you pull back, which I imagine is hard

1035
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 1: for you to do, I know it's really hard for

1036
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 1: me to do, and you think about just your life

1037
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 1: and you think about at current your work in progress.

1038
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 1: Is it all work an election focused or is there

1039
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: a layer underneath it that's more personal for you, you.

1040
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 3: Mean, just in terms of my basic.

1041
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 1: Work life, just in terms of your life, Like is

1042
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,560
Speaker 1: it impossible to see through it at the moment because

1043
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:17,959
Speaker 1: we're so close to Tuesday, or is there that sort

1044
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 1: of layer for you, Rebecca, where you think, like, oh,

1045
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: my work in progress is actually this thing over here

1046
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 1: that people might not expect when they read my books

1047
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 1: and know the kinds of research that I do.

1048
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 4: Well. It's interesting that you asked that, because, as I said,

1049
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 4: I wasn't expecting to be doing so much election coverage

1050
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 4: this year. Was you know, I was not going to

1051
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 4: be the perfect match for the Joe Biden reelection campaign.

1052
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 4: So a thing about me as a journalist, which is

1053
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 4: I get to say and I get to live because

1054
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 4: of a very lucky position that I have, which is

1055
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 4: that I get to be a reporter who is a

1056
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 4: reporter who gets to tell reported stories, but also make

1057
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 4: clear that I have a perspective. Now, I don't believe

1058
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 4: that there's any such thing as objective journalism. I think

1059
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 4: that's horsesh that is actually created by a power structure

1060
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 4: to defend its view of power. Yeah, but there are

1061
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 4: reasonable people in journalism may disagree, and there are a

1062
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 4: lot of people believe in objective journalism. I've never had

1063
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 4: to be objective just because of the kind of beat

1064
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 4: i've the kind of career I was lucky enough to

1065
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 4: be able to carve.

1066
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 3: But a thing about.

1067
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 4: It is that I also, unlike I think a sort

1068
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 4: of fantasy traditional journalist who has distance from her subject matter,

1069
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 4: I have no distance and I have no shell.

1070
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 3: And it is I all of this. It's like, there's

1071
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 3: not it, there's no gap. Now. I do have I

1072
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 3: have a life, right, I have. I have a life.

1073
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 4: I have loved ones I you know, I have, I

1074
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 4: have kids, I have.

1075
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 3: Pleasures, I you know, all those things I'm not.

1076
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 4: I don't want you to think I'm in a weird

1077
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 4: like my weird basement or addict, just sort of sitting

1078
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 4: here and being raw.

1079
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 3: I plant flowers, I cook like I do lots of

1080
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 3: things like that.

1081
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 4: But it is definitely true that I am the membrane

1082
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 4: is very permeable, and that this, you know, my adulthood

1083
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 4: of telling the story, this, this what's happening has been taxing,

1084
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 4: you know, the because my work has meant that I

1085
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 4: am not able to look away from it or pretend

1086
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:40,760
Speaker 4: it's not happening, and because my personal and professional approach

1087
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 4: is that there's not a barrier between it and me.

1088
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 4: It is I have internalized at all. I am. I'm

1089
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 4: a I'm a mess like in a in a I

1090
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 4: think within the realm of messiness that we would all understand.

1091
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 4: I'm not sleeping, I have, you know, torn all the

1092
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:07,160
Speaker 4: skin off my nails, like all the things I feel

1093
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 4: enormous grief and anger and fear that I think a

1094
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 4: lot of people are feeling.

1095
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:16,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too.

1096
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 3: I think it's appropriate to the moment.

1097
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: I really I really appreciate the way you just described that,

1098
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 1: that there's no shell and no distance. That is exactly

1099
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:28,480
Speaker 1: how I feel. And I don't think I've ever known

1100
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:31,479
Speaker 1: how to say it. Yeah, I guess I will say

1101
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 1: that rather than knowing. My hope for us is that

1102
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 1: after next week, you and I can talk about how

1103
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 1: we're going to organize to continue to push for progress

1104
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 1: in a world where we're still allowed to do that.

1105
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. I hope so too.

1106
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 4: And that is what you just said about the world

1107
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 4: in which we're still allowed to do that. I think

1108
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 4: I don't know who's listening right now, but I certainly

1109
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 4: know that a lot of people with whom I share

1110
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 4: an enormous amount of perspective are feeling pain and fury

1111
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 4: on behalf of people and issues who they feel aren't

1112
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 4: represented by either candidate. Ye and I I think that

1113
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 4: the thing that you just said is so important in

1114
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 4: that regard, because there is one and I am. I

1115
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 4: deeply respect and in many cases agree with a lot

1116
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 4: of that level of activist.

1117
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 3: Fury and frustration.

1118
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 4: But I also think that one of the things that's

1119
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 4: on the table is the question of whether there will

1120
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 4: be mechanisms, yes, available for those who are compelled through

1121
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 4: for every single morally correct reason to object and to

1122
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:57,440
Speaker 4: fight for better and for more people, and to protest

1123
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 4: and to change, not just protest.

1124
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 3: But to you to pressure.

1125
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 4: A government, a democratic administration, to do better. Those mechanisms

1126
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 4: by which dissent can be communicated, conveyed, an ideally work

1127
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 4: to make change of the powers that be. Those mechanisms

1128
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 4: will exist in one scenario, and they will.

1129
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 3: Cease to exist if truing exactly, and that is that's real.

1130
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:34,920
Speaker 4: I'm not doing an apology tour for Kamala Harris campaign.

1131
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 4: I'm not pretending that there's just I respect lots of

1132
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 4: people out there who are furious at both campaigns and

1133
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 4: both candidates.

1134
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 2: But they are not the same.

1135
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 4: But they when it comes to literally the ability to

1136
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 4: take that correct and righteous fury and do the kind

1137
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 4: of work we've been talking about here that's been done

1138
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 4: over generations. You are talking about a choice where one

1139
01:04:56,200 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 4: of the options will shut down all the abilities to do.

1140
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 4: That will strip everything we've been talking about, will strip

1141
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:07,480
Speaker 4: all of the levers that will be available in your lifetime. Yes,

1142
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 4: I am a hopeful person. I do not believe it

1143
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 4: is the end of the world or the nation of

1144
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 4: the democracy. But for our lifetimes it would be the end.

1145
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 4: It would be the end.

1146
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,280
Speaker 2: For our lifetimes, in our children's life.

1147
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 1: Yes, and not as when I say it's actually quite

1148
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:23,320
Speaker 1: important to look at history, to look at the kind

1149
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 1: of leaders who want us all this progress and not

1150
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 1: cut off the nose of their legacy to spite the

1151
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 1: face of our current problems. Right, It's incredibly important.

1152
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 4: It is the preservation of the victories that those generations

1153
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 4: have fought for. And I am not trying to pretend

1154
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 4: that in presume you know, in electing one candidate you're

1155
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 4: going to I mean, I hope that everything I've said

1156
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 4: has been real clear about like this is not that

1157
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 4: this is not the final battle.

1158
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 3: This is an.

1159
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:55,920
Speaker 4: Epic, crucial moment in which one of the things we

1160
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 4: will learn is will we have the mechanisms.

1161
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 3: That generation of people thought to make available to us.

1162
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 1: Well, will we be able to battle or will we

1163
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:11,040
Speaker 1: become will we become a different Will literally everyone in

1164
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:14,439
Speaker 1: the country become a lower class than the rulers because

1165
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 1: people may feel that way, but there are protections in

1166
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 1: place that make it different. And you know, if you

1167
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 1: want to be able to protest, if you want to

1168
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 1: be able to demand, whether it's healthcare or cease fire

1169
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 1: or the rights of women, you have to have a

1170
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 1: government that will at least allow you to do that.

1171
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 1: So I'm with you in that, and I guess that's

1172
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 1: why I say I really do hope that after Tuesday

1173
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 1: we can put our organizing heads together and talk about

1174
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 1: ways we're going to continue to push for more progress

1175
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,800
Speaker 1: instead of lamenting that we've lost everything that's been built

1176
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:51,520
Speaker 1: over the last two hundred and fifty years.

1177
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 2: I keep my fingers crossed for us. Thank you so

1178
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 2: much for joining us today.

1179
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 3: You're just thanks for having.

1180
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:58,920
Speaker 2: The coolest person I know. And I still can't believe

1181
01:06:58,920 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 2: you came on the show.

1182
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me on. I'll come

1183
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 3: back anytime.