WEBVTT - Undercover Actors and the Shadow Self 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:06.720 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:13.840 Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:16.920 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie. In this episode, 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.239 we're gonna be talking about undercover actors in the shadows self. Now. 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:25.520 We're following up our pro wrestling episode The Keeping Cafe, 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:28.080 which published just prior to this one, UH. And in 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.240 that episode, we talk a lot about this UH, about 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.920 the idea of layering reality with these with fiction, particularly 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:39.680 as it involves institutions and sports and UH and product 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:43.160 performance products that are given to to an audience, layering 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:45.879 it with fiction to improve upon it and change it. 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:48.400 And we touched a little bit about what happens when 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:50.760 you put these layers of fiction upon yourself. We talked 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:53.760 to pro wrestler Colt Cabana Quis him a little bit 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:56.560 about what it's like when he has to play a 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:00.400 villain in the ring and then when he leaves the ring, uh, 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:02.640 you know, how he's able to shut that off, but 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.240 how he still feels like there is a certain amount 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.959 of him that is UH, that escapes into this villainous character. 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.880 And likewise there's a there's an aspect of him in 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:15.120 the really goody were not really goody two shoes, but 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.000 the good guy version of himself that he also portrays. 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.479 So in this episode, we're going to continue the sort 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.360 of exploration, but we're gonna be looking beyond the world 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:27.240 of pro wrestlers and looking into the world of actors 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:32.160 method acting, for instance, We're gonna look at undercover cops, uh, 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:34.440 and we're also going to look at our online selves 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.720 a little bit. And before we do so, just wanted 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:41.120 to UM, let you know a little bit about cafe 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:44.560 being in case you didn't hear the other episode. Cafe 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:46.920 is a term that's an old Carney term that he's 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:51.120 uh used to indicate that someone should keep being fake. 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:55.400 In other words, if you are wrestling, UM, and you're 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:58.040 it's a fake wrestling match, you want to make sure 0:01:58.080 --> 0:01:59.680 you don't break out of characters, so you want a 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.920 cave ape, right. And we talked in that other episode 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:06.440 about how kfaving really pervades the fabric of our culture, 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.280 and this is something that has come up, I believe 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:12.280 with Cold Cabana. Um it has come up and uh 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:17.120 Eric Weinstein's article about k fabing uh that you can 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:19.760 find it everywhere. You can find it in reality shows 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:21.680 because a lot of these reality shows, as we know, 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:24.760 are scripted, and yet the audience doesn't seem to care 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.320 much like in pro wrestling, right that they don't care 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:31.560 that there's k saving going on. It's about the spectacle. Yeah, 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:33.600 and uh, but then it can also end up sort 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.880 of warping the individual, or seeming to because we asked 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:38.480 Cold about this and he said that, yeah, there are 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:44.040 times where a particular wrestler lets their gimmick, let's their 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:48.440 their fictional self, um, kind of alter their their real self. 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:50.639 Like they'll they'll buy into the gimmick too much, they'll 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.679 believe the hype about the character they betray, and on 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.919 some level it becomes with confused with who they are. Yeah, 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:00.880 that's why Eric Weinstein in his essay alluded to that 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:05.680 and said that sometimes they believe these confabulations of their 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.400 storylines so much so, like for instance, some sort of 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.640 infidelity or adultery, that they will actually then go on 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.560 to commit adultery. Some of these pro wrestlers and some 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:17.840 of these various storylines that they've had to play out. 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:20.120 So we start thinking about that, and of course we 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:22.720 look at ourselves and start to wonder, okay, what about 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.240 our own minds and our own consciousness and sense of 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:28.079 self Because when we get up in the morning, we 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:31.280 basically have to put on our public selves right when 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:33.480 we go out the door. And what is this story 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.920 that we're telling ourselves? What is this script that we're 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.880 we're following for ourselves? Yeah, and ultimately, who is that guy? 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.720 Who is that girl that you are in these various 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:46.040 environments like who's that Who's that person that you are 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.600 on the subway train versus that person that you are 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.520 in the office, versus that person that you are, uh, 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:54.640 you know, say tucked into bed with your significant other 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:57.920 or you know, talking to the cat in the meddle, 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.880 And I don't know. It's like every different an environment, 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.480 every different interaction with the external world, it tends to 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.680 summon a different you. Yeah. And although we tend to 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:12.000 think that we've got this continuity director in our head 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.840 making sure that we're always the same person we we 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.839 purport ourselves to be, there are opportunities for us to 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:21.360 break from the script. And that's what we're gonna look 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.480 at a little bit today. And when you start thinking 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:29.560 about scripts, of course, we have to look at actors yes, now, yeah, 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:31.599 when you start thinking about actors, and certainly that comes up. 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:33.560 You know, we're talking about like pro wrestlers who are 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:35.480 in an angle where they have to pretend they're having 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:37.240 an affair, and then they end up having the affair. 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.680 I mean, you can think of various examples of actors 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.400 and and they end up meeting on a set where 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:47.279 they're playing significant others and then they end up being 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.960 significant others to a certain extent, you know, And and 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:52.799 certainly I even remember I was in a community play 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:58.120 adaptation of seventy six. I was Thomas Jefferson and uh 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:02.280 and I ended up dating um Mrs Jefferson after the play. Uh. 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:04.920 So you feel like that the groundwork was put there 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.240 and that it was just like that whole debate about 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:09.800 whether or not you have any free will. It was 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.320 like the suggestion was there and you followed it. Maybe 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.919 I don't know, it's it's possible, but but but certainly 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:18.800 you see this at times. You see people that that, 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.560 and you hear stories about actors really getting into their roles, 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.719 particularly as far as method acting is concerned. So method 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:29.279 acting uh generally combines uh, the the you know, the 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:34.200 actor's consideration of the character's psychological motives and personal identification, 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:36.800 like they're they're getting there trying to get their mind 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.960 inside that of the character they're portraying, Like they're they're 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:42.720 asking themselves, who is this person? And then what do 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:44.640 I need to do to connect with them? Like how 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:47.359 can I connect my own feelings with the feelings of 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:52.000 this character and and therefore create a more um believable 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:56.400 presentation on the screen, this versus more you know, a 0:05:56.400 --> 0:06:00.000 more traditional, like non method approach, where one just simply 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.560 it gets up there and and you know, recites the 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:07.800 lines and does so in a way that that mimics um, 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:12.080 legitimate deep felt emotion and uh. And then there's of course, 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.120 there are stories plenty of stories about actors who supposedly 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.599 like don't break character, like for like an entire week 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:20.560 of fifth filming, even though they're only filming like during 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:23.400 the day, like they're they're they're staying in character outside 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:27.640 of the picture um and uh. And the and those 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.719 stories are like you people get a little um auntsie 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.960 about that, particularly people who really follow the method. Uh, 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.080 and they'll say, well, that's not really what method acting 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.039 is all about, that's not what was actually you know, 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.960 originally part of the method as it was conceived. And 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:45.080 then you also have some some stories that just simply 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.200 didn't happen, like one of the famous ones is is 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:50.839 supposedly and again this is has never happened. But Solrence 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:54.120 Olivia and Dustin Hoffman, Um, we're on the seat of 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.119 Marathon Man and and Dustin Hoffman shows up just looking 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.760 like hell, just dirty and just just strong outlooking because 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.160 his character is supposed to be. And he explained, and 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:05.919 he explains it in preparation for the scene, he stayed 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:07.760 up all night and he didn't bathe and all this, 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.160 and Olivier supposedly responded by saying, my good Sarah, why 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:12.880 don't you just try acting? Ha ha ha. And it's 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:14.920 supposed to know, it's supposed to be a good laugh 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.600 at the method actor has expense saying, well, why don't 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:19.200 you just pretend to be the thing that you are 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.600 instead of trying to embody it. But what I like 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.680 about that is that's cafe being the cafebe, you know, 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:33.080 because here's this fake story about this about fake in reality, right, um, yeah, 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:38.160 And I think that's really interesting. What I like about 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:41.160 actors is I think they're very interesting creatures because they 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:45.720 are dealing with this duality of nature, right, and they 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.920 are having to inhabit this space and try to do 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.880 so in a way that really fools us. Right um. 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:56.239 Actor Tandy Newton has a great ted dot com talk 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:59.000 and she talks about what it's like to be an 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.559 actor and what it's like to inhabit another character, and 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.720 she has some interesting thoughts on it, and we just 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:10.080 wanted to share some quotes with you. She talks about 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:12.880 this idea that she always felt separate from other people. 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:15.760 She always felt like the other, particularly because she was 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:20.040 someone of color in England growing up and write away 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:23.360 and a female and so here she is already the other. 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:26.520 So she talked about this idea of oneness and separateness. 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.520 She said, our little portion of oneness is given a name, 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:33.800 is told all kinds of things about itself, and these details, 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:38.120 opinions and ideas become facts which go towards building ourselves, 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:41.560 our identity. So she's talking about this idea of self 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.000 and this little bit of self we can grab in 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:46.920 the world and define ourselves by. And she says, and 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.280 that self becomes the vehicle for navigating our social world. 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:54.280 But the self is a projection based on other people's projections. 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:57.439 Is it who we really are or who we really 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.640 want to be or should be. So she says that 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.880 this whole interaction with self and identity was really difficult 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.000 for her growing up. So she said that when she 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.800 found acting it was revelatory. She said, I can hardly 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:11.000 find the words to describe the piece I felt when 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.280 I was acting, my dysfunctional self could actually plug into 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.480 another self, not my own, and it felt so good. 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.120 Because she says that while she had a degree from 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:24.839 cab Cambridge, a thriving career, she herself was a bit 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:29.040 of a car wreck because she was so invested in 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:32.080 this idea of self and she hadn't quite yet figured 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.000 out that it is just a projection, it's an illusion. 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:37.840 And she says that that this, this idea of self 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:42.240 is something that we value above all else, and we've 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.680 created an entire value system in a physical reality to 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:48.480 support the worth of self. Yeah, it reminds me of 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:51.000 the study that we ran across. And this is from 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:54.560 Ellie a contage from the University of Amsterdam. She was 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:58.400 curious how much how much actors are aware of their 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:00.880 performance when they perform it and how into what extent 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.760 they're letting a character take over. Because we've we've we've 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:05.360 heard we've heard that before. We heard a little of 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.439 that from Cold Cabana about you know, you're you're playing 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.720 this character and you just your your juices get flowing 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:16.160 and you just you embody the character kind of possesses you. Right. So, 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:19.360 um So, this study was interested in that. So she 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.480 asked Dutch actors to rate their own emotions and the 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.880 emotions of the characters they were playing across a range 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:31.080 of different states from disgust to anxiety, tenderness, pleasure, fear, 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:34.800 et cetera. And as she found that positive emotions were 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:38.120 often felt by the actors as they played those characters emotions, 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.800 but the more and more negative the emotion that they 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:43.160 were supposed to portray, the less likely it was that 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:47.280 the actor word report actually feeling that emotion. So so 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:49.520 so in this study they found that actors were better 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:54.040 able to connect and be taken over by those positive feelings. Okay, 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.840 so they were able then to manage that system of 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:00.480 not being influenced so much by by their emotions are 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:04.080 the emotions of the character? Um See, this is why 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.560 I think It's such an interesting mind game, this acting, 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:10.120 because you do, you get into some very weird territory 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.520 about who you are and what reality is. Yeah, and 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.920 we've discussed before too, like we're talking about chest opening exercises, 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.040 which we talked about laughter and smiling and laughter. Year 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:21.960 then all this and it, you know, comes out to 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:23.400 that kind of that fake it till you make it 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.120 kind of vibe, the idea that just on a physical level, 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:30.720 if we, you know, we smile and it makes us, 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.760 it makes us begin to feel the emotions that would 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.880 have made the smile. When we put the effect out there, 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:41.160 it generates the cause, even if there was no cause. 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.240 And so what Tanny Newton is saying is that when 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.559 when you think about this self and you think, okay, 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:51.960 well I'm happy today, and and if you are so 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.120 malleable that you allow all these different forces to act 0:11:55.200 --> 0:12:00.480 upon you, then what you're doing is you're confusing self 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.880 for actual living Because what she says is that it's uh, 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:07.040 the self is not an actual living thing. It's projection, 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:10.000 which are clever brains create in order to cheat ourselves 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:13.720 from the reality of death. So she's saying that it's 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.559 our ability to divorce ourselves from the concept of self 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:20.960 and then ground ourselves in others and outside experiences. That 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.360 really liberates us and allows us to live fully. So 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.720 I liked what she had to say about this from 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:32.120 an actor's perspective, because, Um, there there is a ton 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.920 of duality going on here. So what do you mistake 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:38.000 for the real thing? And what is the real thing? 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.280 I think is what we're trying to get at here. 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.400 Um In Underscore you get into questions of what is 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:45.440 there a real thing? Is there is there anything at 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:46.800 the heart of this or is it just a bunch 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:51.360 of masks encircling the formless um? And then and then 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:53.599 to what extent are some is something? If there is 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:57.160 a true you, then to what extent is the fake you? 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:01.200 Almost as powerful there was. There's a really great episode, 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.480 I think a shorty of Radio Lab that aired recently 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.960 called What's Up doc Um. I recommend you guys checking 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:08.560 it out, And I know a lot of you are 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:13.160 Radio lap fans anyway, But it concerned mel Blank of course, 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:16.680 the classic voice actor who you know did the voice 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:22.240 of Bugs, Bunny and countless others and voice and uh. 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:23.760 In the end up they talked to his son in 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.280 this episode, and he talks about like when he played 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:27.880 these care it wasn't just like all right, I'm gonna 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.680 do Wacky Voice number one in vacky Wacky Voice number two. 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:32.640 I mean he was there was almost there was a 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.720 sort of method acting mentality there where he knew these characters. 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.680 He would embody them and even though he's just doing 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.120 the audio, he would act out. You know, you could 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.079 you'd see physically his he was different when he was 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.720 doing one for voice versus the other, and uh and so. 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:49.880 And in this episode they talked about how at one 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:53.120 point he was in this horrible crash car crash on 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:56.400 dead Men's Curve in Hollywood Boulevard and he nearly died, 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:58.160 and he was he was out for two weeks in 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:01.200 a coma, and he would not spond to anyone, respond 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.720 to anyone. But then how do they get him to respond? 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.120 That's the crazy part. Well, this is yeah, this is 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:12.040 the crazy part. His neurosurgeon, Dr Conway, Uh, just he said, 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:14.480 out of nowhere, he just decided to call him bugs 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:17.240 Bunny called Mel Blank, one of his character's bugs Bunny 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.120 and said, uh, something like, hey, bugs, how are you 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:28.280 doing today? And then Mel Blank actually responded as bugs bunny, 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:34.320 what's up back? And in character right, he responds, he 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:38.960 comes out of his comma, basically inhabiting this character, and 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.040 he goes through a couple of other voices, um, I think, 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:47.800 including Porky Daffy and fog Horn Lankhorn, until he himself 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.840 mel Blank, the person the self that that we all 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.720 think of, is sitting there saying what's going on? Where 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:59.680 am I? So, Timmy, it points to this amazing moment 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:02.840 where you do have this question of like, well, how 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.760 much of mel Blank is the characters? And how much 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:10.160 of those characters is are is mel Blank? You know? Um? 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.880 To what degree is he himself or this fictionalized character 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.280 that he's inhabited. Now this leads us into another area 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:23.120 as we discussed earlier undercover cops, undercover agents, vice operatives 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.480 and uh and you know, in the interview with Colt Cabana, 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.320 and we asked him briefly about you know, what it's 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.160 like when he's out there and he's portraying a bad guy. 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.760 He has his character, the officer, Colt Cabana is like 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:38.120 a you know, vile uh, you know, foul mouth the 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:42.440 policeman and uh. And then he has to go back, 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:44.200 you know, he has to leave the ring, go into 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.560 the backstage area. And he says he's able to shut 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:50.200 it off like it's not. It doesn't bleed over into 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.920 his life after the fact. And of course that brings 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.040 to mind again these these vice officers, police officers who 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.720 have to go out and pretend to be drug dealers, 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.480 pretend to be, um, you know what happened some sort 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.920 of criminal element in order to infiltrate it and and 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.440 you know, and and actually get the actual criminals and 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:14.320 get them arrested. So what happens when they're doing that? 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:15.960 What happens when they have to play that part? And 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:18.520 then is there is there the chance that the the 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:22.680 the the criminal element they're pretending to be becomes the 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.720 real them? Did they end up? You know, essentially they're 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.640 pretending to be this monster and then the monster consumes 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.920 them and it does happen. Yeah, I mean this is 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.840 a high wire act, right, and um, you have a 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:39.080 bit about how there have been some instances right where 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:41.880 that shadow self has taken over. Yeah, yeah, And this 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:43.840 is of course, this is important stuff. This is stuff 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.640 that's been that's been studied because ultimately you're talking about 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:50.640 law enforcement, which is important. You're talking about individuals risking 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:54.760 their their lives and and ultimately their their sanity to 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.200 to engage in these kind of operations. So uh. Dr 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:02.200 Michael or Ato a professor of psychology at the University 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.280 of Ottawa. He conducted a ten year study of undercover 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:10.680 agents and uh he he looked at seventy two undercover 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.720 cops and out of the seventy two, um, there were 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.160 there were six that ended up being disciplined for acting 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:22.080 inappropriately during their missions. So one for one person that 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.800 was using cocaine. For another, it was conspiracy to self 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.960 class to self classified information about ongoing investigations. For one, 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:32.240 it was actually selling classified informations. For another, it was 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:36.159 sexual involvement with a confidential informant. For another, excessive use 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:38.320 of force. And for another it was theft of money 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.520 from an evidence locker. UM. I mean and uh And 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:45.160 you see the varying degrees of of shadiness in these 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.080 and you can imagine, like all right, you know, like 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:48.960 in the cocaine, you can imagine like a guy who's 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:50.920 posing as a drug dealer being put in a position 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:55.120 where he has to use the drug or someone says, hey, 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.159 he's you know, not hey use that drug, but but 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.160 you know, encouraging them to sample it to prove their worth. 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:03.280 You kind of see that as a trope in various 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.000 undercover cop movies anyway. But then other stuff like stealing 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:08.879 money from an evidence locker, like that's more of I 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.199 have come back from the role I'm pretending to be 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.440 and now I'm actually that in the evidence locker. I'm 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:17.560 that at at the base, at the home um where 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.160 I'm supposed to leave this criminal fake me behind. So 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:25.760 his ultimate finding, uh Dr Garrotto's finding was that undercover 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:29.720 agents with a disciplined self image and control of their 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:34.840 impulses almost unwaveringly saw themselves as merely playing the part 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:38.240 of a drug dealer. So like Cold Cabana or or 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.840 any number of actors, and out there they were able 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.280 to say, all right, um no, I'm back home now, 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:46.400 and at home, I'm the real me. I am this 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.399 version of me, and that other thing that that the 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:51.760 drug dealer that I was just pretending to be for 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:54.480 like six hours, that's just a show. That's just a fake. 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.800 So ultimately he says that it's what you need is 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.440 an internal set of social standards that prevent you from 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:06.280 losing your sense of identity. Yeah, it makes me think 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:10.000 back to our episode on will power and self control, 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.639 and I wonder if living a double life creates a 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:17.159 heavy cognitive load. We talked about this cognitive loade and 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.960 that if you have to remember, you know, let's say 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.800 two or more items as opposed to ten items, and 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:27.399 then have to take some sort of UM test and 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.080 self control afterward, you're going to be less likely to 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:33.120 follow through with self control if you have a high 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:35.600 cognitive load. So, in other words, if you're a double agent, 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:38.520 or you have a double life, then you have to 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:42.160 keep in mind this entire other story, which might erode 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:44.760 some of that self control, uh and lead to some 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.359 of these ego depletion that we've talked about before too. 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:51.679 That you just have a finite amount of mental energy 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.560 to dedicate to certain tasks. So I can see how 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.240 the shadow self could kind of take over very easily 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:01.840 in that instance. UM wanted to mention to that. Psychologist 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.000 Dr Alan Sillarian has has talked about what it's like 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:08.399 to work with secret agents. He says, the most secret 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:11.359 agents I have met have two signature traits fearlessness and 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:15.520 a high tolerance for anxiety. Whether because of bio biological 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:19.080 factors such as an elevated level of the mood enhancing 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:23.280 neurochemical serotonin, or because of the influences of their early lives, 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:26.360 these people seem to be extreme risk takers who can 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:30.040 tolerate and manage worry, tension, and stress with natural ease. 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.520 So you have to wonder that what point are the 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.199 stakes so high that the tension um begins to to 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.479 erode some of that self control. All right, well, we're 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:42.320 gonna take a quick break and when we come back, 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:46.840 we are going to discuss fiction. We're going to discuss avatars. 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:48.720 And when I say avatars, not only are you going 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:51.359 to talk a little bit about your online avatar, but 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:55.359 also the the older concept of the avatar itself and 0:20:55.440 --> 0:21:02.440 not the movie. All right, we're back, and uh, we're 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:04.919 gonna talk a little bit about avatars here about the 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:08.440 online self, because this is a you know, we've discussed 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:13.159 already this idea that that we we assume different personas 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:18.760 U two varying conscious degrees whenever we're interacting with the 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.440 outside world. There there's a slightly different you when you're 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.359 talking to your mother. Uh, there's a slightly different you 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:29.120 when you're talking to the grosser, you know it. It's 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:34.719 there's just all these different masks swirling around the the 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:37.400 ephemeral self, and we just put on those different masks 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:40.240 to interact with the world. But here's this avatar, this 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:44.800 opportunity to build a new you from the ground up, right, 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:48.840 And what they found, Now, what some researchers have found 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:52.600 is that it isn't always too far from the real you, 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.880 the flesh and blood you. Uh, this is very interesting. 0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:59.840 It's from an article called is It a Game? Evidence 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:03.400 for Social Influence in the Virtual World. It was published 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:07.800