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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about undercover actors in the shadows self. Now.

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Speaker 1: We're following up our pro wrestling episode The Keeping Cafe,

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Speaker 1: which published just prior to this one, UH. And in

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Speaker 1: that episode, we talk a lot about this UH, about

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Speaker 1: the idea of layering reality with these with fiction, particularly

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Speaker 1: as it involves institutions and sports and UH and product

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Speaker 1: performance products that are given to to an audience, layering

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Speaker 1: it with fiction to improve upon it and change it.

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Speaker 1: And we touched a little bit about what happens when

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Speaker 1: you put these layers of fiction upon yourself. We talked

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Speaker 1: to pro wrestler Colt Cabana Quis him a little bit

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Speaker 1: about what it's like when he has to play a

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Speaker 1: villain in the ring and then when he leaves the ring, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, how he's able to shut that off, but

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Speaker 1: how he still feels like there is a certain amount

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Speaker 1: of him that is UH, that escapes into this villainous character.

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Speaker 1: And likewise there's a there's an aspect of him in

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Speaker 1: the really goody were not really goody two shoes, but

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Speaker 1: the good guy version of himself that he also portrays.

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Speaker 1: So in this episode, we're going to continue the sort

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Speaker 1: of exploration, but we're gonna be looking beyond the world

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Speaker 1: of pro wrestlers and looking into the world of actors

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Speaker 1: method acting, for instance, We're gonna look at undercover cops, uh,

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Speaker 1: and we're also going to look at our online selves

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Speaker 1: a little bit. And before we do so, just wanted

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Speaker 1: to UM, let you know a little bit about cafe

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Speaker 1: being in case you didn't hear the other episode. Cafe

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Speaker 1: is a term that's an old Carney term that he's

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Speaker 1: uh used to indicate that someone should keep being fake.

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Speaker 1: In other words, if you are wrestling, UM, and you're

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Speaker 1: it's a fake wrestling match, you want to make sure

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Speaker 1: you don't break out of characters, so you want a

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Speaker 1: cave ape, right. And we talked in that other episode

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Speaker 1: about how kfaving really pervades the fabric of our culture,

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Speaker 1: and this is something that has come up, I believe

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Speaker 1: with Cold Cabana. Um it has come up and uh

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Speaker 1: Eric Weinstein's article about k fabing uh that you can

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Speaker 1: find it everywhere. You can find it in reality shows

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Speaker 1: because a lot of these reality shows, as we know,

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Speaker 1: are scripted, and yet the audience doesn't seem to care

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Speaker 1: much like in pro wrestling, right that they don't care

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Speaker 1: that there's k saving going on. It's about the spectacle. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh, but then it can also end up sort

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Speaker 1: of warping the individual, or seeming to because we asked

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Speaker 1: Cold about this and he said that, yeah, there are

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Speaker 1: times where a particular wrestler lets their gimmick, let's their

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Speaker 1: their fictional self, um, kind of alter their their real self.

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Speaker 1: Like they'll they'll buy into the gimmick too much, they'll

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Speaker 1: believe the hype about the character they betray, and on

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Speaker 1: some level it becomes with confused with who they are. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's why Eric Weinstein in his essay alluded to that

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Speaker 1: and said that sometimes they believe these confabulations of their

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Speaker 1: storylines so much so, like for instance, some sort of

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Speaker 1: infidelity or adultery, that they will actually then go on

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Speaker 1: to commit adultery. Some of these pro wrestlers and some

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Speaker 1: of these various storylines that they've had to play out.

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Speaker 1: So we start thinking about that, and of course we

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Speaker 1: look at ourselves and start to wonder, okay, what about

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Speaker 1: our own minds and our own consciousness and sense of

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Speaker 1: self Because when we get up in the morning, we

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Speaker 1: basically have to put on our public selves right when

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Speaker 1: we go out the door. And what is this story

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Speaker 1: that we're telling ourselves? What is this script that we're

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Speaker 1: we're following for ourselves? Yeah, and ultimately, who is that guy?

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Speaker 1: Who is that girl that you are in these various

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Speaker 1: environments like who's that Who's that person that you are

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Speaker 1: on the subway train versus that person that you are

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Speaker 1: in the office, versus that person that you are, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, say tucked into bed with your significant other

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Speaker 1: or you know, talking to the cat in the meddle,

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Speaker 1: And I don't know. It's like every different an environment,

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Speaker 1: every different interaction with the external world, it tends to

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Speaker 1: summon a different you. Yeah. And although we tend to

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Speaker 1: think that we've got this continuity director in our head

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Speaker 1: making sure that we're always the same person we we

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Speaker 1: purport ourselves to be, there are opportunities for us to

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Speaker 1: break from the script. And that's what we're gonna look

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Speaker 1: at a little bit today. And when you start thinking

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Speaker 1: about scripts, of course, we have to look at actors yes, now, yeah,

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Speaker 1: when you start thinking about actors, and certainly that comes up.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're talking about like pro wrestlers who are

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Speaker 1: in an angle where they have to pretend they're having

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Speaker 1: an affair, and then they end up having the affair.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you can think of various examples of actors

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Speaker 1: and and they end up meeting on a set where

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Speaker 1: they're playing significant others and then they end up being

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Speaker 1: significant others to a certain extent, you know, And and

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Speaker 1: certainly I even remember I was in a community play

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Speaker 1: adaptation of seventy six. I was Thomas Jefferson and uh

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Speaker 1: and I ended up dating um Mrs Jefferson after the play. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So you feel like that the groundwork was put there

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Speaker 1: and that it was just like that whole debate about

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Speaker 1: whether or not you have any free will. It was

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Speaker 1: like the suggestion was there and you followed it. Maybe

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's possible, but but but certainly

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Speaker 1: you see this at times. You see people that that,

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Speaker 1: and you hear stories about actors really getting into their roles,

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Speaker 1: particularly as far as method acting is concerned. So method

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Speaker 1: acting uh generally combines uh, the the you know, the

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Speaker 1: actor's consideration of the character's psychological motives and personal identification,

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Speaker 1: like they're they're getting there trying to get their mind

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Speaker 1: inside that of the character they're portraying, Like they're they're

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Speaker 1: asking themselves, who is this person? And then what do

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Speaker 1: I need to do to connect with them? Like how

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Speaker 1: can I connect my own feelings with the feelings of

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Speaker 1: this character and and therefore create a more um believable

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Speaker 1: presentation on the screen, this versus more you know, a

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Speaker 1: more traditional, like non method approach, where one just simply

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Speaker 1: it gets up there and and you know, recites the

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Speaker 1: lines and does so in a way that that mimics um,

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Speaker 1: legitimate deep felt emotion and uh. And then there's of course,

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Speaker 1: there are stories plenty of stories about actors who supposedly

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Speaker 1: like don't break character, like for like an entire week

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Speaker 1: of fifth filming, even though they're only filming like during

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Speaker 1: the day, like they're they're they're staying in character outside

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Speaker 1: of the picture um and uh. And the and those

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Speaker 1: stories are like you people get a little um auntsie

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Speaker 1: about that, particularly people who really follow the method. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and they'll say, well, that's not really what method acting

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Speaker 1: is all about, that's not what was actually you know,

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Speaker 1: originally part of the method as it was conceived. And

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Speaker 1: then you also have some some stories that just simply

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Speaker 1: didn't happen, like one of the famous ones is is

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Speaker 1: supposedly and again this is has never happened. But Solrence

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Speaker 1: Olivia and Dustin Hoffman, Um, we're on the seat of

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Speaker 1: Marathon Man and and Dustin Hoffman shows up just looking

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Speaker 1: like hell, just dirty and just just strong outlooking because

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Speaker 1: his character is supposed to be. And he explained, and

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Speaker 1: he explains it in preparation for the scene, he stayed

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Speaker 1: up all night and he didn't bathe and all this,

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Speaker 1: and Olivier supposedly responded by saying, my good Sarah, why

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Speaker 1: don't you just try acting? Ha ha ha. And it's

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Speaker 1: supposed to know, it's supposed to be a good laugh

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Speaker 1: at the method actor has expense saying, well, why don't

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Speaker 1: you just pretend to be the thing that you are

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Speaker 1: instead of trying to embody it. But what I like

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Speaker 1: about that is that's cafe being the cafebe, you know,

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Speaker 1: because here's this fake story about this about fake in reality, right, um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think that's really interesting. What I like about

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Speaker 1: actors is I think they're very interesting creatures because they

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Speaker 1: are dealing with this duality of nature, right, and they

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Speaker 1: are having to inhabit this space and try to do

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Speaker 1: so in a way that really fools us. Right um.

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Speaker 1: Actor Tandy Newton has a great ted dot com talk

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Speaker 1: and she talks about what it's like to be an

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Speaker 1: actor and what it's like to inhabit another character, and

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Speaker 1: she has some interesting thoughts on it, and we just

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Speaker 1: wanted to share some quotes with you. She talks about

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Speaker 1: this idea that she always felt separate from other people.

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Speaker 1: She always felt like the other, particularly because she was

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Speaker 1: someone of color in England growing up and write away

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Speaker 1: and a female and so here she is already the other.

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Speaker 1: So she talked about this idea of oneness and separateness.

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Speaker 1: She said, our little portion of oneness is given a name,

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Speaker 1: is told all kinds of things about itself, and these details,

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Speaker 1: opinions and ideas become facts which go towards building ourselves,

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Speaker 1: our identity. So she's talking about this idea of self

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Speaker 1: and this little bit of self we can grab in

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Speaker 1: the world and define ourselves by. And she says, and

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Speaker 1: that self becomes the vehicle for navigating our social world.

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Speaker 1: But the self is a projection based on other people's projections.

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Speaker 1: Is it who we really are or who we really

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Speaker 1: want to be or should be. So she says that

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Speaker 1: this whole interaction with self and identity was really difficult

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Speaker 1: for her growing up. So she said that when she

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Speaker 1: found acting it was revelatory. She said, I can hardly

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Speaker 1: find the words to describe the piece I felt when

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Speaker 1: I was acting, my dysfunctional self could actually plug into

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Speaker 1: another self, not my own, and it felt so good.

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Speaker 1: Because she says that while she had a degree from

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Speaker 1: cab Cambridge, a thriving career, she herself was a bit

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Speaker 1: of a car wreck because she was so invested in

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Speaker 1: this idea of self and she hadn't quite yet figured

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Speaker 1: out that it is just a projection, it's an illusion.

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Speaker 1: And she says that that this, this idea of self

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Speaker 1: is something that we value above all else, and we've

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Speaker 1: created an entire value system in a physical reality to

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Speaker 1: support the worth of self. Yeah, it reminds me of

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Speaker 1: the study that we ran across. And this is from

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Speaker 1: Ellie a contage from the University of Amsterdam. She was

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Speaker 1: curious how much how much actors are aware of their

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Speaker 1: performance when they perform it and how into what extent

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Speaker 1: they're letting a character take over. Because we've we've we've

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Speaker 1: heard we've heard that before. We heard a little of

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Speaker 1: that from Cold Cabana about you know, you're you're playing

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Speaker 1: this character and you just your your juices get flowing

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Speaker 1: and you just you embody the character kind of possesses you. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: um So, this study was interested in that. So she

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Speaker 1: asked Dutch actors to rate their own emotions and the

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Speaker 1: emotions of the characters they were playing across a range

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Speaker 1: of different states from disgust to anxiety, tenderness, pleasure, fear,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. And as she found that positive emotions were

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Speaker 1: often felt by the actors as they played those characters emotions,

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Speaker 1: but the more and more negative the emotion that they

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Speaker 1: were supposed to portray, the less likely it was that

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Speaker 1: the actor word report actually feeling that emotion. So so

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Speaker 1: so in this study they found that actors were better

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Speaker 1: able to connect and be taken over by those positive feelings. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so they were able then to manage that system of

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Speaker 1: not being influenced so much by by their emotions are

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Speaker 1: the emotions of the character? Um See, this is why

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Speaker 1: I think It's such an interesting mind game, this acting,

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Speaker 1: because you do, you get into some very weird territory

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Speaker 1: about who you are and what reality is. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: we've discussed before too, like we're talking about chest opening exercises,

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Speaker 1: which we talked about laughter and smiling and laughter. Year

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Speaker 1: then all this and it, you know, comes out to

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Speaker 1: that kind of that fake it till you make it

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Speaker 1: kind of vibe, the idea that just on a physical level,

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Speaker 1: if we, you know, we smile and it makes us,

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Speaker 1: it makes us begin to feel the emotions that would

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Speaker 1: have made the smile. When we put the effect out there,

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Speaker 1: it generates the cause, even if there was no cause.

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Speaker 1: And so what Tanny Newton is saying is that when

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Speaker 1: when you think about this self and you think, okay,

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Speaker 1: well I'm happy today, and and if you are so

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Speaker 1: malleable that you allow all these different forces to act

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Speaker 1: upon you, then what you're doing is you're confusing self

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Speaker 1: for actual living Because what she says is that it's uh,

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Speaker 1: the self is not an actual living thing. It's projection,

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Speaker 1: which are clever brains create in order to cheat ourselves

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Speaker 1: from the reality of death. So she's saying that it's

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Speaker 1: our ability to divorce ourselves from the concept of self

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Speaker 1: and then ground ourselves in others and outside experiences. That

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Speaker 1: really liberates us and allows us to live fully. So

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Speaker 1: I liked what she had to say about this from

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Speaker 1: an actor's perspective, because, Um, there there is a ton

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Speaker 1: of duality going on here. So what do you mistake

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Speaker 1: I think is what we're trying to get at here.

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Speaker 1: Um In Underscore you get into questions of what is

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Speaker 1: there a real thing? Is there is there anything at

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Speaker 1: the heart of this or is it just a bunch

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Speaker 1: of masks encircling the formless um? And then and then

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Speaker 1: to what extent are some is something? If there is

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Speaker 1: a true you, then to what extent is the fake you?

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Speaker 1: Almost as powerful there was. There's a really great episode,

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Speaker 1: I think a shorty of Radio Lab that aired recently

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Speaker 1: called What's Up doc Um. I recommend you guys checking

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Speaker 1: it out, And I know a lot of you are

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Speaker 1: Radio lap fans anyway, But it concerned mel Blank of course,

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Speaker 1: the classic voice actor who you know did the voice

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Speaker 1: of Bugs, Bunny and countless others and voice and uh.

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Speaker 1: In the end up they talked to his son in

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Speaker 1: this episode, and he talks about like when he played

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Speaker 1: these care it wasn't just like all right, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: do Wacky Voice number one in vacky Wacky Voice number two.

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Speaker 1: I mean he was there was almost there was a

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Speaker 1: sort of method acting mentality there where he knew these characters.

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Speaker 1: He would embody them and even though he's just doing

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Speaker 1: the audio, he would act out. You know, you could

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Speaker 1: you'd see physically his he was different when he was

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Speaker 1: doing one for voice versus the other, and uh and so.

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Speaker 1: And in this episode they talked about how at one

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Speaker 1: point he was in this horrible crash car crash on

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Speaker 1: dead Men's Curve in Hollywood Boulevard and he nearly died,

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Speaker 1: and he was he was out for two weeks in

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Speaker 1: a coma, and he would not spond to anyone, respond

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Speaker 1: to anyone. But then how do they get him to respond?

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Speaker 1: That's the crazy part. Well, this is yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: the crazy part. His neurosurgeon, Dr Conway, Uh, just he said,

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Speaker 1: out of nowhere, he just decided to call him bugs

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Speaker 1: Bunny called Mel Blank, one of his character's bugs Bunny

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Speaker 1: and said, uh, something like, hey, bugs, how are you

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Speaker 1: doing today? And then Mel Blank actually responded as bugs bunny,

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Speaker 1: what's up back? And in character right, he responds, he

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Speaker 1: comes out of his comma, basically inhabiting this character, and

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Speaker 1: he goes through a couple of other voices, um, I think,

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Speaker 1: including Porky Daffy and fog Horn Lankhorn, until he himself

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Speaker 1: mel Blank, the person the self that that we all

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Speaker 1: think of, is sitting there saying what's going on? Where

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Speaker 1: am I? So, Timmy, it points to this amazing moment

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Speaker 1: where you do have this question of like, well, how

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Speaker 1: much of mel Blank is the characters? And how much

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Speaker 1: of those characters is are is mel Blank? You know? Um?

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Speaker 1: To what degree is he himself or this fictionalized character

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Speaker 1: that he's inhabited. Now this leads us into another area

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Speaker 1: as we discussed earlier undercover cops, undercover agents, vice operatives

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Speaker 1: and uh and you know, in the interview with Colt Cabana,

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Speaker 1: and we asked him briefly about you know, what it's

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Speaker 1: like when he's out there and he's portraying a bad guy.

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Speaker 1: He has his character, the officer, Colt Cabana is like

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Speaker 1: a you know, vile uh, you know, foul mouth the

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Speaker 1: policeman and uh. And then he has to go back,

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Speaker 1: you know, he has to leave the ring, go into

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Speaker 1: the backstage area. And he says he's able to shut

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Speaker 1: it off like it's not. It doesn't bleed over into

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Speaker 1: his life after the fact. And of course that brings

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Speaker 1: to mind again these these vice officers, police officers who

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Speaker 1: have to go out and pretend to be drug dealers,

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Speaker 1: pretend to be, um, you know what happened some sort

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Speaker 1: of criminal element in order to infiltrate it and and

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Speaker 1: you know, and and actually get the actual criminals and

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Speaker 1: get them arrested. So what happens when they're doing that?

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Speaker 1: What happens when they have to play that part? And

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Speaker 1: then is there is there the chance that the the

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Speaker 1: the the criminal element they're pretending to be becomes the

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Speaker 1: real them? Did they end up? You know, essentially they're

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Speaker 1: pretending to be this monster and then the monster consumes

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Speaker 1: them and it does happen. Yeah, I mean this is

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Speaker 1: a high wire act, right, and um, you have a

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Speaker 1: bit about how there have been some instances right where

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Speaker 1: that shadow self has taken over. Yeah, yeah, And this

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Speaker 1: is of course, this is important stuff. This is stuff

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Speaker 1: that's been that's been studied because ultimately you're talking about

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Speaker 1: law enforcement, which is important. You're talking about individuals risking

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Speaker 1: their their lives and and ultimately their their sanity to

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Speaker 1: to engage in these kind of operations. So uh. Dr

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Speaker 1: Michael or Ato a professor of psychology at the University

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Speaker 1: of Ottawa. He conducted a ten year study of undercover

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Speaker 1: agents and uh he he looked at seventy two undercover

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Speaker 1: cops and out of the seventy two, um, there were

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Speaker 1: there were six that ended up being disciplined for acting

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Speaker 1: inappropriately during their missions. So one for one person that

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Speaker 1: was using cocaine. For another, it was conspiracy to self

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Speaker 1: class to self classified information about ongoing investigations. For one,

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Speaker 1: it was actually selling classified informations. For another, it was

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Speaker 1: sexual involvement with a confidential informant. For another, excessive use

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Speaker 1: of force. And for another it was theft of money

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Speaker 1: from an evidence locker. UM. I mean and uh And

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Speaker 1: you see the varying degrees of of shadiness in these

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Speaker 1: and you can imagine, like all right, you know, like

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Speaker 1: in the cocaine, you can imagine like a guy who's

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Speaker 1: posing as a drug dealer being put in a position

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Speaker 1: where he has to use the drug or someone says, hey,

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Speaker 1: he's you know, not hey use that drug, but but

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Speaker 1: you know, encouraging them to sample it to prove their worth.

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Speaker 1: You kind of see that as a trope in various

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Speaker 1: undercover cop movies anyway. But then other stuff like stealing

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Speaker 1: money from an evidence locker, like that's more of I

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Speaker 1: have come back from the role I'm pretending to be

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Speaker 1: and now I'm actually that in the evidence locker. I'm

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Speaker 1: that at at the base, at the home um where

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Speaker 1: I'm supposed to leave this criminal fake me behind. So

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Speaker 1: his ultimate finding, uh Dr Garrotto's finding was that undercover

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Speaker 1: agents with a disciplined self image and control of their

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Speaker 1: impulses almost unwaveringly saw themselves as merely playing the part

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Speaker 1: of a drug dealer. So like Cold Cabana or or

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Speaker 1: any number of actors, and out there they were able

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Speaker 1: to say, all right, um no, I'm back home now,

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Speaker 1: and at home, I'm the real me. I am this

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Speaker 1: version of me, and that other thing that that the

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Speaker 1: drug dealer that I was just pretending to be for

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Speaker 1: like six hours, that's just a show. That's just a fake.

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Speaker 1: So ultimately he says that it's what you need is

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Speaker 1: an internal set of social standards that prevent you from

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Speaker 1: losing your sense of identity. Yeah, it makes me think

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Speaker 1: back to our episode on will power and self control,

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Speaker 1: and I wonder if living a double life creates a

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Speaker 1: heavy cognitive load. We talked about this cognitive loade and

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Speaker 1: that if you have to remember, you know, let's say

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Speaker 1: two or more items as opposed to ten items, and

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Speaker 1: then have to take some sort of UM test and

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Speaker 1: self control afterward, you're going to be less likely to

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Speaker 1: follow through with self control if you have a high

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Speaker 1: cognitive load. So, in other words, if you're a double agent,

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Speaker 1: or you have a double life, then you have to

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Speaker 1: keep in mind this entire other story, which might erode

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Speaker 1: some of that self control, uh and lead to some

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Speaker 1: of these ego depletion that we've talked about before too.

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Speaker 1: That you just have a finite amount of mental energy

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Speaker 1: to dedicate to certain tasks. So I can see how

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Speaker 1: the shadow self could kind of take over very easily

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Speaker 1: in that instance. UM wanted to mention to that. Psychologist

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Speaker 1: Dr Alan Sillarian has has talked about what it's like

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Speaker 1: to work with secret agents. He says, the most secret

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Speaker 1: agents I have met have two signature traits fearlessness and

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Speaker 1: a high tolerance for anxiety. Whether because of bio biological

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Speaker 1: factors such as an elevated level of the mood enhancing

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Speaker 1: neurochemical serotonin, or because of the influences of their early lives,

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Speaker 1: these people seem to be extreme risk takers who can

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Speaker 1: tolerate and manage worry, tension, and stress with natural ease.

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Speaker 1: So you have to wonder that what point are the

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Speaker 1: stakes so high that the tension um begins to to

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Speaker 1: erode some of that self control. All right, well, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break and when we come back,

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Speaker 1: we are going to discuss fiction. We're going to discuss avatars.

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Speaker 1: And when I say avatars, not only are you going

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about your online avatar, but

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Speaker 1: also the the older concept of the avatar itself and

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Speaker 1: not the movie. All right, we're back, and uh, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk a little bit about avatars here about the

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Speaker 1: online self, because this is a you know, we've discussed

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Speaker 1: already this idea that that we we assume different personas

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Speaker 1: U two varying conscious degrees whenever we're interacting with the

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Speaker 1: outside world. There there's a slightly different you when you're

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Speaker 1: talking to your mother. Uh, there's a slightly different you

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Speaker 1: when you're talking to the grosser, you know it. It's

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Speaker 1: there's just all these different masks swirling around the the

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Speaker 1: ephemeral self, and we just put on those different masks

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Speaker 1: to interact with the world. But here's this avatar, this

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Speaker 1: opportunity to build a new you from the ground up, right,

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Speaker 1: And what they found, Now, what some researchers have found

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Speaker 1: is that it isn't always too far from the real you,

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Speaker 1: the flesh and blood you. Uh, this is very interesting.

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Speaker 1: It's from an article called is It a Game? Evidence

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Speaker 1: for Social Influence in the Virtual World. It was published

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Speaker 1: in the journal Social Influence. And in the study, which

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Speaker 1: was conducted by Paul W. Eastwick and Wendy L. Gardner,

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Speaker 1: one avatar tried to influence another to fulfill a request,

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Speaker 1: because we're talking about here is relationships. They were using

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Speaker 1: something called there dot com for this, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of like second life, this kind of limitless virtual environment

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Speaker 1: where people create little versions of themselves and then they

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Speaker 1: kind of teleport around and interact with each other. And

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Speaker 1: you know, a lot of the fun is just sort

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Speaker 1: of outfitting your character, uh, you know, giving it certain

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Speaker 1: physical characteristics, so on and so forth. But at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, like I said, it really is

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Speaker 1: about communication, because you're just mirroring what you're already doing

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Speaker 1: in society, or at least this is what this paper

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Speaker 1: is saying. Um. So yeah, you've got these. You've got

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Speaker 1: one avatar trying to influence another to fulfill a request,

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Speaker 1: just like in life. Right, I asked something of you,

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Speaker 1: you asked something of me. We try to cooperate together

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Speaker 1: to get something done. Um. The experiment, or in this case,

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Speaker 1: an avatar, first snakes an unreasonably large request to which

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Speaker 1: the responder is expected to say no, followed by a

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Speaker 1: more moderate request. Yeah. I think it was something like

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Speaker 1: go to like twenty screenshots from a particular environment in

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Speaker 1: this in this uh this world. So it's like if

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Speaker 1: you were like playing one of these quest games like Skyrim,

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Speaker 1: and you just it was like a ridiculously, ridiculously complex

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Speaker 1: mission for some seemingly low payoff. So as I expected,

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Speaker 1: the avatars, which is similar to people who participated in

429
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 1: the same experiment in the real world, were more likely

430
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 1: to comply with the moderate request when it was preceded

431
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: by the large request. Then when the moderate request was

432
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: presented alone. Now that's kind of a that's a tactic

433
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: that I think a lot of people use, Like if

434
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 1: I just go in for the it's sort of like

435
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: if you asked for a raise. If I asked for

436
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,360
Speaker 1: a million dollars, then it's a lot easier to get

437
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: to the maybe X amount that I want, as opposed

438
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: to if I just asked for a thousand dollar raise. Um.

439
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: So what you see is that they exhibited a psychological

440
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: tendency to reciprocate the requests concession that change from a

441
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 1: relatively unreasonable request to a more moderate request. So one

442
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: of the other more striking findings was the effect of

443
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 1: what they call the d I t F technique, which

444
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: it was during the face. This is the way that

445
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: they made the request was significantly reduced when the requesting

446
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: avatar was dark toned. The white avatars and the d

447
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 1: I t F experiment received about a increase in compliance

448
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: with the moderate request. The increase for the dark toned

449
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: avatars was eighty. And again, this is a virtual world,

450
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: so there's there's no telling on the other side of

451
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: a virtual character if they are black, if they're white,

452
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 1: if they are male or their female I mean in

453
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: second life you see people going around is like you know,

454
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: monkeys and cats and dogs and stuff, and you know,

455
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: and there are various other examples of people playing you know,

456
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: very inhuman characters. So on some level we know that

457
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: the person and they decide can be any thing, but

458
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: we still ended up end up buying into the vision

459
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 1: that is presented to us. Yeah, we're still tether to

460
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 1: some degree to our our prejudices and that the social

461
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 1: construction in our mind of what we think the world is. Um.

462
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: So I thought that was interesting that that still what

463
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: it boils down to is that even though you've created

464
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: this avatar and uh it's supposed to represent this duality

465
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: within yourself, you're still you're still socializing and cooperating or

466
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: not cooperating in the same sense that you would in

467
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: your life. And of course another thing to keep in

468
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 1: mind with all this is that in these video game interactions,

469
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: you're of course not making eye contact. Now. I like

470
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: to think of a of a of a future time

471
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 1: when our video game characters we will have our actual eyes.

472
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: I think that could be. I think that would be

473
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: really cool. Yeah, but for now, they most characters and

474
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: video games have just the dead soulless eyes of the

475
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: Uncanny Valley. Um. But but one of the studies we

476
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: were looking at, and this was where was this from?

477
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: This was from the University of Haifa in Israel. Yeah,

478
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: So they asked seventy one pairs of college students who

479
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: did not know one another to debate an issue over

480
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,239
Speaker 1: instant mass messenger and try to come up with an

481
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: agreeable solution. And they did a couple of fasces of this.

482
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 1: But the ultimate finding was that when their eyes were hidden,

483
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 1: the participants were twice as likely to be hostile because

484
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 1: they had and some of the the the the subjects

485
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: were were you they're reasoning like a skype webcam technology

486
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: so that they can they can make eye contact during

487
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: these interactions and others not. And so when the eyes

488
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: are hidden, hostility is more likely to occur. Which is again,

489
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: you know you're you're outside of the social contract, right,

490
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 1: because the way that you know that you're in a

491
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: social contract is by witnessing the other person's reaction to you,

492
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: all the non verbal gesturing that gives you an indication

493
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 1: of how they're feeling. So if you can't see that,

494
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: then it makes sense that you would miss those cues

495
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: or that they just wouldn't be present and enough to

496
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 1: sort of get you to line up with acceptable behavior.

497
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: So this, of course is one of the reasons why

498
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: we see rude behavior running rampant online. Yeah, that's why

499
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: you see like these outrageous examples of trolls, you know,

500
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: where someone's just out there just being completely awful, and

501
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: you know they whenever they're eventually exposed there you know,

502
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 1: or not allay, they're not eventually exposed, but in the

503
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: cases where they're exposed, you see, oh well, this actually

504
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: seems like a fairly normal person. How are they that

505
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: awful online? And you know it's because they're they're on

506
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: some level, they're not they don't see themselves as interacting

507
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: with real people. They're just kind of interacting with automatons. Yeah,

508
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 1: so I think they'll be interesting to see if the

509
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: shadow self, this sense of shadow self, becomes more acceptable

510
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: as we continue to communicate online and that we this

511
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: this duality maybe disappears a bit, because again, we we

512
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: think of ourselves as this continuity, right this script director,

513
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: and our our brain saying you are this, You're a

514
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: good person, you have integrity, you moved throughout the day

515
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 1: in the following ways, but then we act another way

516
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: when nobody is looking. So how much of that will

517
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 1: you know in the future be acceptable or not acceptable? Yeah. Finally,

518
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: the world of fiction, which we've talked about this before,

519
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 1: the story of the power of storytelling, the power of fiction.

520
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,719
Speaker 1: But there was a little study that we ran across

521
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: that that ties in nicely with what we're talking about here,

522
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 1: and this is from Brigamany Young University research team led

523
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: by Sarah M. Coney, and she writes up in this

524
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: instance for the British Journal of Social Psychology, and she

525
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: was looking at how exposure to aggressive behavior in literature

526
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: has a psychological impact on readers. So in this case

527
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: they had to the test subjects read two different versions

528
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: of a story, like some people will read a story

529
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: where the outcome is that the conflict is solved with violence,

530
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: and in the other the conflict is not solved with violence.

531
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: And in both the cases they found that provoked people

532
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: who were given the opportunity to engage in the pacifics

533
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: civic form of rertalatory violence were more likely to do

534
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: so if they had just read a fictional account of

535
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,959
Speaker 1: similar activities. So, in other words, the individuals who just

536
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: read this thing where someone solves a problem with violence.

537
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: If they are then if they then encounter a real

538
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: life conflict, they're more likely to be aggressive in that

539
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: that incident, which I I hadn't stumbled upon that study

540
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: until we started doing research on this, because we, like

541
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: you said, we've done We've covered this subject quite a

542
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: bit in the ability of the reader to take on

543
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: the persona of the character and also mirror neurons, uh,

544
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: you know, firing at the same time that a character

545
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: is throwing a ball in a book. Right. But to

546
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: see this, this concrete manifestation of the abstract aggression is

547
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: pretty amazing. And then I think that it points to

548
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: this idea that this again, that self is a very

549
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: tenuous thing, that this consciousness, this continue a d factory

550
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: that we try to have in our head of turning

551
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: out this idea of who we are isn't quite as

552
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: solid as we think it is. Yeah, And then then

553
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: we had this other study. We looked at researchers from

554
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: Ohio State University and they conducted like six different experiments

555
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: on about five different participants, and they found that stories

556
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: written in the first person can temporarily transform the way

557
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: readers view the world, themselves and other social groups. So,

558
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: for instance, they that they were particularly interested at one

559
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: point in what would happen when individuals were reading about

560
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: a character and then that character was then revealed to

561
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: be homosexual. This particular experiment, they had like seventy heterosexual

562
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: males and that they read this story and uh, they

563
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: found that it depending on where in the narrative the

564
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: revelation was made, it it had a big impact on

565
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: how they, uh they felt about the protagonist being gay,

566
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: and and also how they just envisioned that character. Like

567
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: if if it was revealed early in the story, then

568
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: they brought in a lot of baggage and a lot

569
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: of conceptions about what a gay character should be. But

570
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: if they revealed it later, then then all that stuff

571
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily thrown into the mix because they had a

572
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: chance to try to occupy that person's Yeah right, yeah,

573
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: very cool stuff. Yeah, it really makes you think about

574
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: the power of first person narratives, Like I instantly started

575
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: thinking about um Joyce Carol Oates book Zombie, which is

576
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: the first person perspective and the character is based loosely

577
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: on Jeffrey Dalmer. So you have a very dark and

578
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: troubled individual and you and and then I think that's

579
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: maybe the thing that's so you know, narcotic about text

580
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: like that is that it puts you in the mindset

581
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: of this individual. It is seemingly far removed from who

582
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: you are. But then ultimately you have to act yourself

583
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: how far removed if I'm able to embody that person

584
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: when I read this you? Uh, that was in the

585
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: book swap right for our early holiday gathering. Yeah, Lauren

586
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: the new co host on Tech Stuff, got that one.

587
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: So so right now she is her nightmarage. She's having

588
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: nightmares in the corner Jeffrey Dahmer. I'm just I'm gonna

589
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: throw some subluinal things out today Jeffrey Dahmer and just

590
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: see how she reacts. Wow. So um so, like I

591
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: say I said earlier, it makes me think about avatars,

592
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: not only in the in the the online avatar sense,

593
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: but in the the the old idea of the avatar,

594
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: which is steeped in Hinduism, comes from the Sanskrit word avatar,

595
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: which means descent, and the idea here is that you

596
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: have a god um and that God is just immaterial

597
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: and just completely separate from the physical world, and then

598
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: to descend to the physical world, the god has to

599
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: take on a form uh that can be understood by

600
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: the physical world and that can interact with the physical world.

601
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: For instance, Vishnu has ten different avatars, and they range

602
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: from there's a fish, there's a tortoise as a bore,

603
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: there's a dwarf, there's a and then and then there's Krishna,

604
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: and then there's Buddha, and then there's a pen the

605
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: avatar that's uh the form of a white horse with wings,

606
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: and it's a destroyer that will come at the end

607
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: of the world. So can I really like this this uh,

608
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: this metaphor for ourselves and the various selves we present,

609
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: you know, think of your your your ultimate inner thoughts

610
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: and everything that's going on inside you. You're kind of

611
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: like this vision of this this formless thing. And then

612
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: to interact with the physical world. To descend to the

613
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: physical world, you have to take on these various forms,

614
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: and they need different things and they have different applications

615
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: in different environments. Right, So that the type of self

616
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: that we roll out really sort of depends on which

617
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: avatar we need at the moment. Uh. You know what

618
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: one of my avatars is what's a duck? So Julie

619
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: takes on the form of the duck and uh, and

620
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: how do you use that avatar? Well, it doesn't really speak,

621
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: so I don't know. Alright, Shall we bring over the robots.

622
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: Let's call the robot over here and we'll do a

623
00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: couple of quick listener mails. All right, Well, we've heard

624
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: a lot of great comments on our episodes on mazes

625
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: and labyrinths, and we heard from Andrew. Andrew writes and

626
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: this says, Hi, guys love the podcast and especially love

627
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: the episodes dealing with mazes and labyrinths. I think it

628
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: is noteworthy that modern psychology has been applied to the

629
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: construction of malls and shopping spaces that specifically create maze

630
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: or labyrinth like environments. Have either of you ever been

631
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: to Ikea? Of course we have because we live in

632
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: the same city as one, so everyone has to go.

633
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 1: It's it's a lot of mandatory. Um. The place is

634
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: a labyrinth, no two ways about it. You walk in

635
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: and you follow a path of consumption uh and leave

636
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: next to the entrance. Uh. This psychological tool of peace

637
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: and religious expansion is being used to proliferate consumer culture. Uh.

638
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:45,959
Speaker 1: And then he goes on to say, you know, it's

639
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: rather different inside of a mall environment, where it's just

640
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: it's like a maze. There are all these like how

641
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: do I get out of here? How do I get

642
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: to the store I want to go to? How do

643
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: I escape the horrors of the food court? All these

644
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: questions come up, whereas indeed, I kea is so well

645
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,439
Speaker 1: laid out and o versed in design that there's a path,

646
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: you flow, it's it's at least for the first hour,

647
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: it's a calming experience. Um and uh. And the book

648
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: that we we discussed in in in Maps and Labyrinths

649
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: also makes that point in regard to to hospitals and

650
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: similar environments. One of the problems there, of course, is

651
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: that you end up with a maze like hospital because

652
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: in many cases that you build part of a hospital

653
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 1: and then you build another wing onto it, and there's

654
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: another wing here, so you have all these layers coming

655
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,879
Speaker 1: together to form this this this thing where there's no

656
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: cohesive design in place, which heightens your anxiety, particularly if

657
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: you're at the hospital to visit someone or you yourself

658
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: checking in. So not necessarily this sort of design that

659
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: you want this. The book is called Healing Spaces. Healing Spaces. Yeah,

660
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: and and and we were talking about government buildings just

661
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: yesterday and how it has like this, you know, Kafka

662
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: bureaucratic layering of of as, like uh, ways to get

663
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 1: to where you need to go, and almost seems intentional,

664
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: like we're gonna make you go down this a mile

665
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: long hallway and then we're gonna give you directions that

666
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: are you know, twenty different directions on top of that.

667
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: Um so, yeah, all right, well, here here a couple

668
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: more that. This one is from Jill Jill Wrightson and

669
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: says hello, thanks for the fantastic podcast. Labyrinth have become

670
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,479
Speaker 1: close to my heart over the past few years. After

671
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: my husband and I eloped to San Francisco, we had

672
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: a marriage blessing at Grace Cathedral where I saw my

673
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: first labyrinth. He walked it and it was beautiful to

674
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: see every step really count. I was not comfortable to

675
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: have a prayer for or meditative practice in the open,

676
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 1: but I did find this box and book picture below,

677
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 1: and she included some some very some excellent to photographs

678
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: that there of labyrinths. At Christmas this year for my

679
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: own practice, the tracing and breath are a good connection

680
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: for me. I completely agree with what you said about

681
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: the mazes. They're frustrating and I don't know why they

682
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,919
Speaker 1: were included in this pack. She's referring to the pack

683
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 1: of Mazes laborage. Yet meditative maze did prove to be

684
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: an oxymoron because the flas we discovered's nothing meditative about

685
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: being lost. Thanks again for all you do. It is

686
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 1: appreciated down here in Orlando. And then we also heard

687
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: from Kelly Kelly Road and said, hello, I just finished

688
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: listening to the Labyrinth episode and wanted to thank you

689
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: for all the interesting facts. I am actually getting married

690
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: in a labyrinth this August. My husband and I were

691
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 1: legally married last March, but postponed our larger ceremony and

692
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: reception as I was nine months pregnant and couldn't see

693
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: my feet. Now that our beautiful baby boys here, we

694
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,720
Speaker 1: are renewing our vows and having an actual ceremony and reception.

695
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 1: Our ceremony is being held here in the center of

696
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: a labyrinth, which is set in the woods here in

697
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: Illinois where we live. We like the idea of the

698
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: ceremony being a meditative experience. I plan to have a

699
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: sign near the entrance offering a brief explanation and history

700
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: of labyrinth and inviting people to sneak away from the

701
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: reception to try it for themselves. I will definitely use

702
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: some of the facts you've covered in the show. Thanks

703
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: again for a great episode, and if you read this

704
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: on the show, I just want to say thanks to

705
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: my has been chat and my son's Kaden and Silas

706
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 1: for being the three most wonderful guys on the planet. Kelly, Yeah,

707
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 1: that's sweet. I think it's very cool to have a

708
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: ceremony and elabyrinths. It is, yeah and yeah interesting to

709
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 1: see to hear from two different listeners who have employed

710
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: labyrinths in their their ceremony. All right, well, if you

711
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: have something you would like to share with us, be

712
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: it about mazes and labyrinths, or be it about the

713
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: shadow self? Um, actors, I know we have some actors

714
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: out there. Uh, let us know how that works in

715
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: your mind? What's it like to take on a character? Uh?

716
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: And you know, do you use the method to to

717
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: any degree? Um? If we have anyone who has done

718
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: any kind of undercover work, be it like official, you know,

719
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: hard and gritty, undercover work or something a little more mundane. Uh,

720
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,399
Speaker 1: you know, some sort of like even public performance kind

721
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: of thing where you're having to put on a character

722
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: to deceive people. Uh, don't tell us, don't you know.

723
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: But but but seriously, if you've engaged in anything like that,

724
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: we'd love to hear some more inside on how that

725
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,760
Speaker 1: feels and how you feel yourself embodied in the character

726
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: that you're being, or how you feel that character affecting you.

727
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: So I'd love to hear from you about any of that.

728
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: You can find us on Tumblr and you can find

729
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: us on Facebook. We are stuff to blow your mind

730
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: on both of those, and you can also drop us

731
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: a line at blow the Mind at discovery dot com

732
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is

733
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: it how Stuff Works dot com