WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 54 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.320 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.159 there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:30.760 can make your own decisions. It happened somewhere else a 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:35.920 while ago, and also somewhere else now ish several days ago. 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:40.320 What a great title for a show. I love. I 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:44.440 love how snappy and remember and memorable. That is that. Look, 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:45.960 look we can we we can, we can go, and 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:48.040 we can go into a tiny bit of pulling back 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:49.519 the curtain, which is that you can't do too many 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:51.280 good intros because if you do too many good intros, 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:53.120 and everyone expects you to constantly have a good intro, 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:54.680 So every once in a while you have to just 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.760 make you have you have to lower the overall quality 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.120 of the intro so that when you are truly desperate, 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:01.080 I have just been dragged out of bed at like 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.040 three am and you have to record a podcast, they're 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:07.120 sort of atonal noises will be considered normal. That's why 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:12.160 I script all my intros. But I'm just I'm just 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:15.640 I'm just built. Yeah, different example that could happen here. 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:19.560 What are we what are we doing here today, Chris um, 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:23.319 we are talking about well, actually, admittedly we we had 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:27.600 planned this episode before this happens. Yeah, we on this 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:33.520 episode before the referendum in Cuba about the new family Code. 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:38.280 But yeah, we're we're gonna be talking about the kind 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:43.039 of bleak but sort of gets better history of homo 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:48.560 sexuality in Cuba and how things went from very bad 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.640 to getting a lot better, and then also how a 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.240 lot of American leftists like picked up a version of 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:58.680 the history of this that is just sort of nonsense. 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:05.040 And here here with us talk about this is Andre's Petira, 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:08.160 who is well doing doing many things, one of which 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:10.640 is studying for PhD in Latin American history at the 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:14.440 University of Wisconsin, Madison. On today's Welcome to the show. Oh, 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:17.519 thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here. Yeah, like, 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.880 I'm excarted to talk to you about this. So Okay, 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.320 I guess the place that I want to start is 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:27.560 I want to go back to the sixties, and I 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:31.079 want to go back to something that I I don't 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:35.919 think a lot of people understand very well in terms 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.760 of what happened in I just happened in various ways 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.440 over a lot of sort of these new sort of 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:47.240 revolutionary socialist states, which is that you get this attempt 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.440 to like form of like a sort of like like 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.880 a new revolutionary subject. Sometimes it's like, I mean, the 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.239 Soviet one was like the New Man. They're they're sort 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:00.240 of different versions of this across the sort of areious 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.160 social revolutionary states. I guess I wanted to ask you 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:08.000 to talk about how this kind of got really really 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:14.079 homophobic in Cuba, like pretty quickly. Yeah, So, I mean 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:16.400 and and and one of the interesting parts about the 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:20.560 story in Cuba is that it actually is look in 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:25.080 part imported from the USSR and ideas in the USSR. 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:27.560 And that's actually one of the connections which in the 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.640 literature isn't in the academic literature at least isn't always 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.560 that well explored because Cuban is tend to be very insloyed. 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.880 We don't really tend to learn Russian. I'm I'm kind 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:41.160 of crazy. I actually am learning Russian. But but no 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:45.800 so so um. You know, there was obviously lots of homophobia, 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:50.000 lots of you know, all like lots of bigotry against 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:54.440 LGBT people before nine, not unlike the United States of 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:58.400 the nineteen fifties, like you could live privately or maybe 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.200 in certain safe spaces, you could live a kind of 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:05.920 okay life. But you know, it was definitely very marginalized position, 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:09.280 lots of bigotry and lots of personal danger in addition 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:15.120 to a lack of basic rights. Um. After nineteen fifty nine, Uh, 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:19.120 you know, you have this jettison, jettisoning of the Catholic 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:24.159 Church and kind of religious reasons for being bigoted with 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:28.599 the coming of the revolution, which is a secular communist revolution. Um. 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.400 But what what ends up happening is they And this 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:36.839 is something that Abil Sierra Marero's recent book on on 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:40.360 Um on these policies talks about a lot. Is this 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:45.240 kind of attempt to remake human men into the demand 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.719 that's needed for this communist society in the future. And 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:51.599 as part of this, they engage in a sort of 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.279 social hygiene. We don't want people who are lazy, we 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:58.360 don't want people who are degenerate, but you know bourgeois 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:02.400 degeneracy by you know that kind of stuff. And within this, 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.280 you know a persecution of people who were seen as 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:09.080 either out, either as gay or at least as soft 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.520 and they need to be made into real macho men 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:17.000 for the revolution. And um, this started out in a 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:21.080 very series of isolated things, right. You would have like 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:25.799 Virgilio Pinieta was who was a dramaturge. He was, um, 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:29.560 he was jailed, uh, and he basically he was being 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.000 targeted because people wanted his house and so if he 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.560 was jailed and his belongings were separated from him, then 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:37.880 like someone could get to keep his apartment. Like that 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.320 seems to be why he was originally targeted. And he 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:44.960 was detained twice for basically walking while gay. That's how 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:48.120 basically what the incident boils down. He was walking effeminately 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:50.880 in people and he was detained by police and he 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:53.320 was free because he had like he was an important person. 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.400 He was you know, he had some protections. But then 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.240 as the decade rolls on, as the nineteen sixties rolled on, 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:01.960 that's like that's nineteen sixty one year after the revolution, 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:09.200 you have the creation of a series of forced labor camps, 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.239 and there's not really any way to get around that. Um. 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:16.000 We don't know exactly how many were sent there, um, 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:18.640 but it seems to be in the thousands, maybe tens 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:20.880 of thousands. We again, we don't know because the government 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:23.760 hasn't classify that information. So it's still a conjecture. But 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.920 it's not because people don't want to investigate the details. Um. 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:30.880 And these are thousands and thousands of people who are 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:35.760 being sent for all sorts of reasons. Jehovah's witnesses um. Uh, 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.479 people who listened to rock, people who are seeing as 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:44.680 hippies uh lvi spleanos, so Elvis presleyan's so people who 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.000 listened to Elvis Presley because that was seen as too 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:51.320 effeminate and too yankee. Um and and so they were 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:54.359 sent to the camps and to forced labor. But the 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:57.800 camps weren't just about forced labor. They were about remaking 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.599 through labor, these men into your real men, because hard labor, 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:06.320 proletarian labor, would you know, remake their spirits and their ethics. 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.240 And aha, I mean it's kind of not unlike what 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:14.160 we're seeing in the nineteen sixties in China. I think yeah, yeah, Yeah, 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:16.120 there's a very explicit like one one of the things 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:18.040 well yeah, well one of the things that is just 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:20.040 going on during the Cultural Revolution. Also, Yeah, it's like 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:21.680 that they have that they have this sort of re 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.200 education through labor. The thing that starts and it gets 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:29.120 it does get. Yeah, Like I've seen conflicting accounts of 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:32.680 the extent to which like people were directly targeted for 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:35.800 being gay. It definitely did happen. And there's yeah, and 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:37.600 you get a lot of this sort of same thing 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:41.240 of like if people are like spiritually unpear and like 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.680 they have to be like re educated and they have 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:48.240 to be sort of like turned into like proper like subjection. 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:49.960 There's a lot of especially like there's a lot of 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.240 sort of like there's a lot of people like being 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:57.120 forced to hold science to say sodomite and ship yeah, 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.600 which is funnily enough. And the weird part about this 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.840 is that like in the Chinese case, so the Cultural 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:04.840 Revolution is like not a great time to be gay, 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:07.960 but there's also this thing. There's this thing kind of 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:12.120 like it's kind of like like Nies Berlin, where like 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:14.560 there are there is some really bad stuff that happens, 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:16.160 but there's also this sort of like there's a kind 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.760 of general political chaos so you can get away with 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.320 some stuff. Two that there's actually there's another campaign in 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:25.880 China and starts about three Yeah, it's called the Strike 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:30.360 Hard Campaign. Interestingly, there's there's actually two Strike Hard campaign. 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:32.079 So there's there's one of the eighties that's supposed to 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.840 be this campaign against like crime and stuff, and so 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:36.520 like they target a bunch of people who are like 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.960 suppsed to be like social criminals, and then that winds 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:41.679 up being a lot of like there's this there are 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:43.840 just mass arrest of gay people. They're in prison for 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:47.880 a very very long time. Um yeah, under Although that 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.360 one's also interesting because it's like you have very similar 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:53.000 kind of reasoning, but it's like but it's in this 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:57.480 sort of like dang like kind of revolutionary like phase 0:08:57.640 --> 0:08:59.800 where it's like instead of being instead of being a 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:01.600 day to the revolution, they're like sort of a danger 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:07.040 to like traditional Chinese values, which is interesting and bleak. Yeah, well, 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:08.360 because like this is one of the one of the 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:10.480 things happens in China. Write is it like in in 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:12.440 you know, there there is an attempt to sort of 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.160 do more egalitarian like gender relations during the Dan culture 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:17.280 revolution between the sort of like revolutionary period and then 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:19.719 when Dane takes power, part of this thing is like no, 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:21.960 we're going back to traditional gender relations, like all of 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.560 this egalitarian stuff was a mistake and like this is 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:26.560 part this is part of whether when child policy comes from. 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:29.960 But then also you get a really homophobic crackdown in 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:32.559 like eighty three, like like three or four years after 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:37.160 sort of like he's actually, weirdly, almost exactly the same 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.920 time that like the real sort of market reforms hit 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:42.760 like like it's it's it's like a year later is 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.599 when the package that's sort of like really brings the 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:47.079 market back and trying to happens. Is I know, it's 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:49.880 it's a very weird. Yeah, we we have gotten gotten 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:51.560 very off topic, but it's it's a very weird and 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:56.079 interesting sort of like social flip that happens. Yeah, I'm sure, 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.040 and that definitely makes me want to read more about 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.520 like China during this period. Yeah, well, I think it's interesting, 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:05.319 Like everything you're talking about earlier that is interested, Like 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:07.920 it's similar to me as I've talked to like people 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:10.280 from Vietnam and they have a very similar story about 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:12.720 like like, I mean, there was homophobia before, but they 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:14.679 have a very similar story to the Cuban story about 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:18.000 how like there is a sort of importation of like 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.720 Soviet homophobia and how that made everything like when that did. 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:23.280 This starts out between the eighties and it gets just 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:29.640 like significantly worse. Yeah, no, it's uh and in Cuba, 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.520 um what's it called? Like the whole idea that this 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:38.000 is a form of bourgeois degeneracy and the gayness gayness 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:42.400 is specifically bourgeois is like was really surprising to me 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.679 as I dug into this, Like there's comics I in 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.720 this thing I wrote, I include a couple of them, 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:51.800 but it's basically like it's put up there with wanting 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.320 to be in so leave it at like free society 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.360 in the West, and so the West is it's it's 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:01.160 almost like a factionary mean it is really, I mean 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.880 it's like it's it's like a very weird, weird mirror 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.079 of like far right discourse because it's like the degeneracy 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.760 of the West. Meanwhile, here we have masculine values. I mean, 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.240 did you even see that type of rhetoric with we 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:17.480 were talking about Alexander Dugan recently and he he is. 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:19.600 I suppose there's a lot of that type of stuff 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.200 as as as well as someone who is you know, 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:24.920 a fascist writer who's pulled on some of the national 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:29.600 Bolshevik type stuff before. Um, yeah, you can attack attack 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.280 gayness as it's like a sign of liberalism in the 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:37.520 West as like this like almost like a bourgeois tendency. Yeah, 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.839 I forget, I forget who it was. There was someone 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:41.440 on Twitter who was talking about there's like it's it's 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:44.480 very interesting thing like yeah like in in like in 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.360 the US, like I don't know, like being like for 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:48.839 a very very long time. It's so kind of now 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.600 you get this ross like like being gay like is 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:53.120 is you know, like being queer as a sign of 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.640 like you're a communist and you're like like a degenerate communists, 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:58.959 et cetera. And then you go to like Vietnam and 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.200 it's like, yeah, this prace is gay there. They're they're 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.600 they're degenerate Western like kind of revolutionary and it's it's 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.360 it's it's like it's always the same. The actual sort 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.240 of like homophobic thing is the same. It's just like 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.840 the signs are flipped of like what the other is 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:17.160 and who you can accuse them most sort of having 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:21.400 the values of I wonder if the unifying factor here 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:23.800 is and this is something I'm thinking of a lot, 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:28.520 a lot because of Other's book, which is that I 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:32.880 mean greatness as a disease, Yeah, an illness and so 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:35.480 like that. So it allows you to glump onto it 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:40.040 anything you don't like from your own ideological prism. So 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.920 I also wonder a lot about how nationalism plays into it, 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.559 because that's one of the things that happens in a 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:48.520 lot of these sort of revolutionary projects is like, yeah, 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:50.240 like the sort of ideal of the new man is 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:53.880 sort of like a communist thing, but it's also like 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.679 very specifically something that you get with like with nationalist revolutions, 0:12:57.679 --> 0:12:59.680 where it's like, well, okay, so we like we we 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:01.040 we have like like part of part of it, like 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.800 the basis of our national identity is like we are 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:06.760 these like incredibly sort of masculine hard man or whatever. 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:12.360 And then this like I don't know, it strikes me. 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.880 It strikes me. It's interesting that like the further that 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:21.760 sort of nationalism becomes entangled in like these revolution ary projects, 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:26.160 like the more you start to see this kind of stuff. Yeah, 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.760 And and definitely part of this is nationalism because it's 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.079 it's not just homophobia in Cuba in this context of 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.400 the sixties, it's not just homophobia for the sake of homophobia. 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.000 So there is that too, but it's it's also that 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.200 I don't think Fiddel Castro is entirely lying when he 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.559 says that it was part of the need to mobilize 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.480 as much of society as possible for the economy. What's 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.160 happening in Cuba in the nineteen sixties is basically the 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:56.720 economy is going into a meltdown. Um, the economic policies 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:00.559 that they're enacting have not been working. They've earned through 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:05.560 any surplus they had, including good will surpluses and a 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.120 couple of respects. Uh. And I think that like some 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.240 people point to like the new Man and people will 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.640 work for moral incentives not material incentives, as just this 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:18.320 naive thing. And then I think the most convincing counter 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:22.040 argument is they didn't have anything else to incentivize people with. Yeah, 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:23.800 people people make this this this is a this is 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:25.880 like basically it's an identical like argument that you get 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.280 about the culture Revolution, where like you start to see 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.800 these like incentives are like MAO will like give you 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:33.880 a mango or something, or like you have these like 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.760 pins that you get and and like it. It's like, yeah, 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:38.120 it's just it's it's very it's like the same thing 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:39.760 of like you have these rewards that are sort of 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:44.400 like yeah, they're sort of like spiritual almost or sort 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.440 of like spiritual ideological rewards, and then eventually like kind 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:49.520 of just stops working because it turns out that's not 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:54.720 actually a very good basis for economic system. Uh. Do 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.320 you guys know the old joke about Shake Givada when 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.680 he was given a sign to become the Minister of 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.840 the Bank. I don't know the joke. I know the 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:09.240 thing about like he was my my my vague memory 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.600 is like the story that I hear was like he 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:13.440 signed his name like really sloppy on it because he 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:15.840 was piste off that like he had to put his 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:17.520 face on money or something. But I have no idea 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:19.800 that's that's that's that part's actually true. He did. He 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:21.760 he hated money so much he refused to sign his 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.400 actual name. He just signed his nickname as like just 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:28.840 to show his disdain for for for economics. But at 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:31.360 a meeting the old jokeos. And this is something that 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:33.560 Chap apparently like to tell as well, even if it's 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.240 not necessarily true that at the meeting where they were 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:38.800 deciding who's going to become the Minister of what, uh, 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:43.000 they said, uh, who here is an economist And he 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.240 raises his hand and everyone goes to chat. But you're 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:47.120 a doctor, You're not an economist, he says, Oh, I 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:54.840 thought you asked for a communist staff, Like, so yeah, no, 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.080 I mean cha. And and I think I've heard arguments. 0:15:58.080 --> 0:15:59.640 I'm not an expert on chat, but I've heard that 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.920 he was retually pretty heavily influenced by China compared to 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:07.640 the USS are closer to China. Yeah, that actually that 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:09.160 actually gets I make I think. I think I guess 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.560 that kind of makes sense given his sort of like 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.040 like the way his military strategy seems to have worked, 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.320 which is very very much like a lot closer to 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:22.080 sort of like nowas strategy than well, okay, I mean, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.880 I'm gonna put Soviet strategy and quotation marks because oh 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:31.160 my god, is there like I have I have a 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:33.720 very negative, a very dim view of of sort of 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:37.720 the military strategy of people who are of like guerrilla 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:39.920 organizations who are taking their military trying directly from the 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:41.640 Soviet Union. It's a lot of like we're gonna build 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:43.040 up one giant I mean in a place and one 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:44.720 day they're going to roll into the capital and it's 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:51.920 like this, okay state, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes that 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:56.880 makes sense. Um, okay, yeah, raining raining myself in a 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:00.880 little bit. We have these basically labor camps that gay 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.159 people are getting put into. We have kind of a 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:07.959 material basis for it, which is and this is one 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:09.520 of the things that like people actually use as a 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:11.879 defense of sort of like like, well, we had to 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.560 put these people in these camps because of our material conditions, 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.520 which I think, like I feel like that makes it worse. 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:18.840 Like I feel like in the fact that there's a 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.800 there's a material basis for your homophobia like makes it 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:23.600 harder to get rid of and makes it like a 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.760 more entrenched part of the system, which I don't know, 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:30.200 bizarre defense to me, But yeah, can we talk a 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:32.920 bit about like how how did this actually end and 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.120 to what extent did it end and did it sort 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:39.560 of like have this like half life afterwards? Sure? So, 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.439 so these last for a couple of years, This is 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.120 not like a flash in the pan like oops are 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.760 bad kind of like you know, six months in. This 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.919 is like a series of multiple work camps across the 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:55.120 province of come Away, which is in central Cuba, and 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.600 they last for three years, and there's pushback during this period, 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.680 domestics back, international pushback, like people have been complaining about 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:07.760 it for exactly what the definitive thing that got them 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:11.320 the few mock closed specifically close or the UNI that 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:13.760 is Meli, that is the IU, the Ala Prus young 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.760 military units to aid production. So the Umak themselves, which 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.800 are open from nineteen sixty eight, they do eventually get 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.480 close and sixty eight people are free, you know, like 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.919 you know, the camps are closed and uh people are 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:33.560 sent home and um there are varying stories. I have 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.520 looked through like trades, trying to trace as many stories 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:41.560 as I can get um uh and even even people 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.439 who like we're participants have different stories. So like I 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:47.600 remember Carlos Franki, who was one of a position figure. 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:51.120 He has one story that centers himself in the closure. 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.880 Other stories say that it was the international pressure. Other 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:58.760 stories say that it was the Right Writers and Artists Union, 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:02.200 the official one the state on the NIAC, which filed 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:06.240 enough complaints and that convinced Fidel to get it closed down. Um, 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:11.720 that anecdote is actually from Maddie Glass Iglesias, Dad Josse Lexias, 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:19.000 who wrote about Yeah, his grandfather, his grands his communist grandfather. Um. 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:21.800 But he who actual who wrote a book about the sixties. 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.920 He's an interesting guy. But anyway, so the camps get 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:27.920 closed one way or another, and I don't think we're 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.719 gonna ever know the definitive answer until like there's actually 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:36.840 be classification. But they're closed. But the thing is, um, 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:43.000 while the camps get closed, we have reports from different people, 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:45.760 including some of the sources that are used as apologia 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:51.320 for the MOP saying wait wait wait, social disgrace units 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.719 he existing well into the early nineties seventies, and so 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:58.200 we do have sporadic reports of things like this happening 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:02.120 where seminarist or sense to religious people for for being 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.320 atheists or started for not being atheists. Uh, you know, 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:09.040 gay people are being sent other people mighty wands. So 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.280 people who spoke smoke pot, you know, anyone who's seen 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:16.040 as like not conforming into this ideal new man, you're 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.480 sent there and the labor is supposed to reform you. 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:20.479 And that's that's a key part of this. It's not 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:25.880 just labor as punishment's labor as ideological reform. There's even 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:28.840 one of the people, some of the people who wouldn't camp, 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:33.120 say that there was a sign that says work will 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:40.720 make you men Jesus. Oh no, yeah, like work will 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:44.199 set you free. Yeah, it's uh so, so the camps 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:48.879 do contain seem to continue and um, it's it definitely 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:52.560 seems to be the case that, uh, you know, gay 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.320 people do continue to be arrested for being gay, even 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.760 though the intensity of this does die down by the 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:03.240 night and seventies. There's something pretty bad that also happens 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:05.960 in the nineteen seventies, but it's a slightly different project. 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:11.399 It's not as centered on force labor. So yeah, and 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:13.480 I guess so the yeah, the the thing that you 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.040 wrote this piece about that I actually probably mentioned that 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:18.000 is one of the things we're talking about. Is you 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:23.200 you wrote a very long piece about um called factually Based, 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:27.399 which is about sort of the kind of mythology that 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.840 developed in the US about like how these camps were 0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:34.480 closed and the sort of like apology around it. And 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:40.040 a lot of this is based on Leslie Feinberg, which 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:43.760 is depressing in a lot. Leslie Feinberg, people who don't know, 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:48.879 is like one of one of the most important like 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:54.120 trans authors ever wrote Stone which Blues, which is like 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:58.760 if you've ever been in like any sort of like 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:03.439 queerer trand scene, you probably know about or possibly have 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:13.440 read and she rout mm hmm, not a great account 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:15.480 of this. Yeah, do you want to talk a bit 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:18.560 about what what this was and how people have served 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:22.600 used it in different ways? Sure? So, Like for years 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:25.520 I heard like arguments from this book and I didn't 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:27.520 know they were from this. I just saw people sharing 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:30.800 online online and thinking, where the hell are people getting this? 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:34.239 This is not this is not true, And eventually I 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:36.280 find out that it's It dates back to this book 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:40.439 called Rainbow Solidarity and Defensive Cuba by Leslie Finberg, was 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:46.159 written mid to late two thousand's. Um. Really, it's not 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:51.240 a book. It's a compilation of articles which Fineberg wrote 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:55.119 for as part of the Lavender and Read series for 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:59.800 This World's Workers World newspaper, which is like this Marci 0:22:59.880 --> 0:23:02.439 I sect which fine Birds have been a part of. 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:10.560 UM real real Weirdos like they those people like they 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.840 have positions that are like bizarre even by the standards 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:18.160 of like modern tankies, like they're they're like the these 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:20.119 are people who are like hard line on defending the 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:23.720 DIRG in Ethiopia, which is like stuff that's weird enough 0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:28.000 that like most most modern like idea like hardline ideological 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:30.000 stalinists don't know what this is, don't even know what 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:33.320 this is or won't defend it because it's like because 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:35.840 like most Ethiopian mark sister, like this was fucked, like 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:40.320 it's it's Yeah. Also that this is every thing about 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:41.960 these guys. So if you know about the PSL, the 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:44.720 Party of Socialist Liberation, they emerged from a split with 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:48.000 the WWP, Yeah, because the it was the w w 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:51.199 P was too moderate or something. Yeah, my my my 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:53.160 memory of it was it was a split about whether 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:55.560 whether or not you should take money from North Korea. 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:57.320 I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if 0:23:57.320 --> 0:23:59.240 that's a percent of that that that's my memory of 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:01.959 the last time I about it. So these are who 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:07.560 these guys are. Yeah, no, no, I mean there's a 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:11.040 reason that PSL and WWP seemed to have very similar lines. 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:15.080 Um so so anyway, so I'm I finally get this book. 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:19.080 I ordered second hand, so not giving anyone royalties. Um, 0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:22.200 and I get the book and it starts like arguing, 0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:25.119 you know, trying to you know, defend the track record 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:27.720 of the revolution. And really it's like, basically, it seems 0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:31.040 that this book and an article that came out before 0:24:31.080 --> 0:24:34.679 any of Finbers articles, an article by John Hilson in 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:37.679 the early two thousands are kind of a response to 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:43.360 how as the kind of like how LGBT rights were 0:24:43.400 --> 0:24:48.440 treated in the mainstream in like the United States was shifting. 0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:52.760 There was a like less homophobia movement towards more recognition 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:56.679 of rights in the two thousands, and in that context, 0:24:56.800 --> 0:24:59.280 he was Cubist track record on LGBT rights, which is 0:24:59.320 --> 0:25:02.280 pretty pretty add you know, was getting hammered. And so 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:05.960 they're writing this as a response to that. And Feinberg 0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:08.760 Warrens in the introduction, don't expect a criticism of Cuba 0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:11.400 in this book. It's factually based, but you know, then 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:14.320 I put it in quotes factually based, but uh, you know, 0:25:14.440 --> 0:25:16.919 it's it's factually based, but it's you know, where this is. 0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:21.720 It's basically meant his counter propaganda to the criticisms and 0:25:22.040 --> 0:25:24.560 the section that everyone quotes. I mean the book is 0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:26.520 the book isn't that long. It thinks like a hundred pages. 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:28.960 I have it over here. Um, it's like a hundred 0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:33.960 pages long. It's all these different articles. Um. The section 0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:37.320 that most people quote is actually like two or three pages. 0:25:38.080 --> 0:25:42.200 It's this very short section on the map, and Uh 0:25:42.320 --> 0:25:48.040 Feinberg talks about the MOP and sites basically three people 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:50.959 to talk about it. Basically, one one of those sources 0:25:51.000 --> 0:25:54.919 is Ignacio ramon It, who is this foreign journalist who 0:25:54.960 --> 0:25:57.800 interviews Fidel and gave Fidel the opportunity to give these 0:25:57.840 --> 0:26:04.400 explanations and defenses of his policies, where basically Fidel Uh, Basically, 0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:07.119 Fidel defends it as a part of the necessity of 0:26:07.160 --> 0:26:10.480 mobilizing the entire country in the face of the crisis 0:26:10.480 --> 0:26:12.719 that it felt that was facing in the nineteen sixties 0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:15.200 from the United States, so it needed to mobilize everyone. 0:26:15.280 --> 0:26:18.000 It was part of the economic mobilization. And it was 0:26:18.040 --> 0:26:21.919 almost a favor to gay people because they couldn't go 0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:24.600 into the military because there was too much homophobian the military. 0:26:24.640 --> 0:26:26.679 So they almost did them a favor by giving them 0:26:26.720 --> 0:26:29.280 sending them off to do labor that wasn't with the 0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:33.000 military in these nice little you know, economic productive units, 0:26:33.359 --> 0:26:35.560 and then you know, oh there was some use, there 0:26:35.600 --> 0:26:38.600 was some stuff, so we shut them down. Um. And 0:26:38.840 --> 0:26:42.320 this is before Fidel actually admitted that there was persecution 0:26:42.359 --> 0:26:46.480 of LGBT people in Cuba under his watch, which comes 0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:50.080 in like interview. So this is like his version of 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:53.560 things right before then, and that's what Feinberg sites. Another 0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:58.760 of the sources is Cardinal and Nest Carnal, who I'm 0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:01.640 happy to expand on him. The short version is that 0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:04.760 into gard Danel is going around Cuba in nine and 0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:08.440 nine one for two short trips, and he's just basically 0:27:08.480 --> 0:27:11.399 writing down everything and anything people tell him. Some of 0:27:11.440 --> 0:27:14.119 it's very critical, some of it's very supportive. He's not 0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:17.200 actually claiming anything is factual. He's saying, I am in Cuba. 0:27:17.320 --> 0:27:19.440 This is what people are telling me. Make up your 0:27:19.440 --> 0:27:22.600 own minds. Like that is his stense, but is presented 0:27:22.800 --> 0:27:27.200 as this, uh like it's not critically analyzed at all. 0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:29.919 And it's these two separate stories. One of them is 0:27:30.000 --> 0:27:34.639 that a hundred Communist youth members infiltrated the camps on 0:27:34.840 --> 0:27:38.920 hearing that there were abuses there, and they wrote reports 0:27:38.920 --> 0:27:40.880 saying that there were abuses, so the camps were shut down. 0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:44.600 And then there's the separate story, also source to Cardinal 0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:50.560 by Feinberg, that Fidel personally infiltrates the camps incognito. And 0:27:50.600 --> 0:27:53.720 then there is this like guard who was going to 0:27:53.840 --> 0:27:56.840 like cut the cord on his hammock to wake him 0:27:56.920 --> 0:27:59.320 up and get him force him to work, and Fidel 0:27:59.359 --> 0:28:02.720 revealed him elf and and you know, almost almost like 0:28:02.840 --> 0:28:05.560 why dost thou persecute me? Saul? A kind of deal, 0:28:05.720 --> 0:28:08.199 like very it sounds like a very biblical story, so 0:28:08.280 --> 0:28:10.720 it's it's a good yard, but it's not doesn't sound 0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:12.800 very serious. And also the two stories kind to contradict 0:28:12.840 --> 0:28:14.720 each other. Why does Fadel have to infiltrate if the 0:28:14.800 --> 0:28:18.600 hundred communist youth members have gone, you know, or vice versa, 0:28:18.680 --> 0:28:22.359 you know, you don't. Yeah, it's really weird, like like 0:28:22.359 --> 0:28:24.280 why why would there be both like both of them, 0:28:24.480 --> 0:28:26.919 you can't present both of them as true at the 0:28:26.960 --> 0:28:30.800 same time, like they they're they're they're mutually contradictory accounts 0:28:30.840 --> 0:28:36.240 of how this happens, very very weird, exactly, and and 0:28:36.240 --> 0:28:39.200 and in in Cardinal, they're not even presented back to 0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:44.400 back the hundred Communist youth members is literally a dude 0:28:44.400 --> 0:28:47.400 he saw on the street who told him this. It's 0:28:47.440 --> 0:28:50.120 a paragraph and that's it, Like, we don't have any 0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:53.479 other context. The other story that Fiddel infiltrating is shared 0:28:53.640 --> 0:28:56.400 is slight sounds slightly more credible if you really want 0:28:56.440 --> 0:28:58.400 to believe it, but then if you actually read into it, 0:28:58.400 --> 0:29:01.360 it's more like it doesn't. It also does no water. Yeah, 0:29:01.400 --> 0:29:04.920 it's like a guy heard from another guy. Like it's 0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:08.400 it's yeah, he's he he's a guard. It is a 0:29:08.480 --> 0:29:11.760 guard narrating this. But he like he talks about what 0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:14.960 he saw up until like half into the paragraph, and 0:29:14.960 --> 0:29:19.040 then the rest is clearly implied to be stopped stuff 0:29:19.080 --> 0:29:21.800 he heard about but wasn't actually present for. And Fineberg 0:29:21.800 --> 0:29:25.760 presents him as a witness of both. So anyway, so 0:29:25.840 --> 0:29:29.280 that's that's Fineberg's whole defense, Like basically, Fidel had no 0:29:29.360 --> 0:29:31.920 idea that we're abuses, even though the very existence of 0:29:31.960 --> 0:29:35.320 the camps themselves were abuses, and then but they were 0:29:35.360 --> 0:29:38.680 shut down and everything's hunky dory, you know. That's that's 0:29:38.720 --> 0:29:41.479 Fineberg's defense. And then of course the third thing is 0:29:42.280 --> 0:29:45.800 that she refers both citations to Hilson, which I can 0:29:45.840 --> 0:29:47.560 get into a second, but just I think part of 0:29:47.560 --> 0:29:51.400 the problem is that Finberg didn't actually read Cardinal. Yeah, 0:29:51.400 --> 0:29:55.720 so Hilson. Hilson is another activists. I'm not sure if 0:29:55.760 --> 0:29:59.480 he's LGBT and not like that that front of me 0:29:59.520 --> 0:30:02.800 list clear, but he was another activist. He died very 0:30:02.800 --> 0:30:06.320 early in the two thousands, I think um from from cancer. 0:30:06.600 --> 0:30:11.280 He uh, but he wrote an article that cites card 0:30:11.360 --> 0:30:16.440 donal and cites both sections that Feinberg later sites and 0:30:16.920 --> 0:30:20.800 not more, not less. And I think what's what happened 0:30:21.120 --> 0:30:26.120 was that Fineberg basically goes to this article which basically 0:30:26.200 --> 0:30:29.640 makes more or less makes the kind of arguments that 0:30:29.640 --> 0:30:31.880 Fineberg is already making in her in her own work. 0:30:32.160 --> 0:30:36.200 But m what what when when she sees things that 0:30:36.240 --> 0:30:39.680 seem to exculpat the Cuban government, she basically does copy 0:30:39.680 --> 0:30:42.120 paste and a little parenthesis to give credit to Hilson 0:30:42.200 --> 0:30:46.280 and then moves on right, she doesn't actually read Hilson. 0:30:46.400 --> 0:30:49.800 Hilsen even like treats it a little more cautiously than Fineberg, 0:30:49.960 --> 0:30:52.959 even though not sufficiently cautiously. And I think that that 0:30:53.040 --> 0:30:56.240 explains why and the least this is a generous interpretation. 0:30:57.360 --> 0:31:00.080 Feinberg doesn't actually address the fact that in her your 0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:07.240 own exculpatory source, there's talk of other camps, like at 0:31:07.280 --> 0:31:09.640 the time Cardinal is like I am going to the camps. 0:31:09.640 --> 0:31:13.360 I'm visiting the camps. There are camps here, like you know, 0:31:13.560 --> 0:31:15.920 So it doesn't it doesn't make sense unless maybe Fineberg 0:31:15.920 --> 0:31:18.520 didn't read the book, like just like copied and paste 0:31:18.560 --> 0:31:20.840 and didn't really think about it, yeah, or or just 0:31:20.880 --> 0:31:23.840 like went and found the one session that that was 0:31:24.160 --> 0:31:28.200 useful and then just read that part. Yeah, which yeah, 0:31:28.280 --> 0:31:30.200 not not a great way to do history, as it 0:31:30.200 --> 0:31:37.480 turns out. Yeah, yeah, I will do my one return 0:31:37.560 --> 0:31:40.880 to marks moment in this interview, which is to say, 0:31:41.000 --> 0:31:45.160 ruthless critique of all that exists, things that you generally support, 0:31:45.320 --> 0:31:51.680 because otherwise you wind up with this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, 0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:54.600 Oh my god, it's done the round. This thing has 0:31:54.640 --> 0:31:57.000 been going around around and around on the internet for 0:31:57.120 --> 0:32:01.000 years and years. Yeah, and I guess we should also 0:32:01.000 --> 0:32:03.239 say that, like, yeah, this is this is the thing 0:32:03.240 --> 0:32:05.320 that happens with like any any like every one of 0:32:05.360 --> 0:32:06.920 these like every one of the social country you've been 0:32:06.920 --> 0:32:09.080 talking about, Like you will get people who basically are 0:32:09.120 --> 0:32:13.400 like like, hey, look at this bad thing. We're gonna 0:32:13.480 --> 0:32:16.080 But people who are like, I don't know, you get yeah, 0:32:16.080 --> 0:32:17.840 you get like Cuban right wingers who are like also 0:32:17.960 --> 0:32:21.680 unbelievably homophobic who suddenly like discover a passion for gay 0:32:21.800 --> 0:32:27.120 rights because look at these abuses and it's like, yeah, 0:32:27.440 --> 0:32:34.160 it's I don't know, it sucks it, Yeah, I mean 0:32:34.160 --> 0:32:36.480 I think it genuinely is a part of the reason 0:32:36.600 --> 0:32:40.640 why this version becomes like a memory that like like 0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:42.320 this for these sort of versions of the story, which 0:32:42.400 --> 0:32:47.800 like don't have are not like really credible, like become 0:32:47.880 --> 0:32:50.720 sort of entrenched in the sort of like socialist memory 0:32:50.760 --> 0:32:55.360 of of this period in the US because it's like, well, okay, 0:32:55.360 --> 0:32:57.000 so so on. On the one hand, you have a 0:32:57.040 --> 0:33:00.640 bunch of sort of like like incredible fanatical right wingers 0:33:00.640 --> 0:33:04.640 talking about what was going on, and then you have like, hey, 0:33:04.680 --> 0:33:06.760 here's another story from a socialists, like well, we're gonna 0:33:06.760 --> 0:33:08.760 believe the socialist version. It's like, well, neither of these 0:33:08.760 --> 0:33:11.840 people like not like but both of these groups like 0:33:13.480 --> 0:33:15.960 have an incredibly clear agenda going into what they're doing, 0:33:16.360 --> 0:33:18.840 and so you have to sort of like actually sift 0:33:18.920 --> 0:33:21.560 through the stuff yourself. Otherwise you weird wind up with 0:33:21.760 --> 0:33:26.480 very very weird and distorted histories. Yeah, and and people 0:33:26.560 --> 0:33:28.640 just really want to believe it. I mean, I think 0:33:28.840 --> 0:33:31.880 that's that's my conclusion. Like I when I was originally 0:33:31.920 --> 0:33:35.000 researching for this, I was I was pissed, Like I 0:33:35.080 --> 0:33:37.800 was like, this is these are just not true. How 0:33:37.840 --> 0:33:40.840 could someone publish this? You know, it's really angry. And 0:33:40.920 --> 0:33:43.400 I kept trying to write that like a piece or 0:33:43.560 --> 0:33:45.600 based on that, and I keep kept stopping and like 0:33:45.640 --> 0:33:47.440 this is not the right approach, This is not the 0:33:47.520 --> 0:33:50.240 right Like I kept stopping myself, and then I finally like, 0:33:50.280 --> 0:33:53.160 try to, okay, put my shelf self in Fineberg's shoes. 0:33:53.560 --> 0:33:56.880 If I was you know, really loved you know, if 0:33:56.920 --> 0:34:00.640 I was like as enamored as Fineberg was everyone and 0:34:00.640 --> 0:34:04.160 everything involved in the Cuban Revolution, and at the same 0:34:04.200 --> 0:34:08.520 time one a member of a persecuted group, right, you know, 0:34:09.080 --> 0:34:12.680 and I really wanted to swear this circle like and 0:34:12.719 --> 0:34:15.240 I saw something to let me do that. I would 0:34:15.239 --> 0:34:17.920 probably also just glimb onto it and just not really 0:34:18.080 --> 0:34:20.680 try and not think about it too much for the 0:34:20.719 --> 0:34:23.560 same reason, right, you want, you know, our defenses are 0:34:23.560 --> 0:34:27.960 a low one, it's something we want to believe. Yeah, 0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:33.680 this is there is an enormous amount of stuff that 0:34:33.760 --> 0:34:37.680 just sort of people, I mean just yeah, like everyone 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:39.920 has a bunch of stuff that they believe because they wanted, 0:34:40.040 --> 0:34:42.680 they want it to be true. Like it's it's not 0:34:42.760 --> 0:34:47.040 like like we're we're we're we're we're being hard on 0:34:47.080 --> 0:34:49.360 the socialist here, but like, I don't know, like this 0:34:49.400 --> 0:34:51.040 is why half of the people who believe Q shit 0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:53.600 believe it, right, Like it's it's it's, it's it's it's 0:34:53.640 --> 0:34:54.920 the thing they want to believe, and I think they 0:34:54.960 --> 0:34:57.680 sort of have to believe for the ideology to function. 0:34:57.719 --> 0:35:00.839 And so it's like it's not like I don't know, 0:35:00.920 --> 0:35:03.799 like it's it's it's. It's not that much different than 0:35:04.239 --> 0:35:08.520 like and Paul Wolfowitz like still thinking the Iraq war 0:35:08.600 --> 0:35:11.680 works or something, right, Like it's it's it's, it's, it's 0:35:11.719 --> 0:35:13.440 it's the thing you have to believe in order to 0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:17.319 not like have to sort of process the complications of 0:35:17.360 --> 0:35:23.880 what you're supporting. Yeah, so I think, yeah, everything I 0:35:23.920 --> 0:35:26.200 want to talk about sort of moving past this is 0:35:26.239 --> 0:35:29.440 about the stuff that's been happening recently and about how 0:35:29.520 --> 0:35:34.200 stuff got better in Cuba, because this is I like, 0:35:35.360 --> 0:35:37.160 this is this is one of the places where like 0:35:37.200 --> 0:35:41.759 things actually did genuinely get a lot better than like 0:35:42.560 --> 0:35:44.799 it was. And I want to talk a bit about 0:35:44.800 --> 0:35:46.879 like how that happened before we get to sort of 0:35:47.280 --> 0:35:51.600 the stuff that's been happening in the last week or so. Yeah, 0:35:52.280 --> 0:35:55.800 and you know, I'm happy to get into happier terror. Yeah, 0:35:56.120 --> 0:36:01.080 it sucks, like, oh god, it's it's definitely dumer stuff 0:36:01.400 --> 0:36:06.399 to always think about the sixties of the um. So 0:36:06.560 --> 0:36:09.040 after the sixties, it did get pretty It was pretty 0:36:09.040 --> 0:36:11.240 bad in the nineteen seventies too. There was a purge 0:36:11.280 --> 0:36:14.760 of education and culture of anyone LGBT or suspective being LGBT, 0:36:15.280 --> 0:36:18.160 because the ideas that they would recruit and influence and 0:36:18.200 --> 0:36:25.600 corrupt the miners. And but yeah, uh so, I can 0:36:25.680 --> 0:36:29.200 probably do an article comparing the Culture and Education Congress 0:36:29.200 --> 0:36:32.719 in seventy one in Cuba with with with policies in 0:36:32.760 --> 0:36:37.439 the United States right now. Um, But then things start 0:36:37.480 --> 0:36:39.719 to get better in the nineteen eighties a little bit 0:36:39.760 --> 0:36:42.960 like the the throttles pulled back. It's not great, but 0:36:43.040 --> 0:36:45.719 it's you know, it's not terrible as terrible as it was, 0:36:46.200 --> 0:36:48.440 And then from the late nineteen eighties into the nineteen 0:36:48.480 --> 0:36:50.680 nineties we really see to see start to see a 0:36:50.719 --> 0:36:54.560 sea change, both in terms of popular culture and in 0:36:54.680 --> 0:36:57.359 terms of the of state policy. And of course they're 0:36:57.360 --> 0:37:00.480 intertwined because the who who who allows films to be 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:03.320 put on in theaters the state, they owned all the theaters, 0:37:03.320 --> 0:37:07.080 so um in terms of culture. Actually know one of 0:37:07.120 --> 0:37:09.600 the people who had a play played a key role 0:37:09.640 --> 0:37:12.640 in this, which is Seneta Bas And Seneta Bas is 0:37:12.719 --> 0:37:15.480 this writer from a small town in Cuba, small village, 0:37:15.600 --> 0:37:18.359 and he goes to heaven and he's he's a writer 0:37:18.400 --> 0:37:21.040 and artist, and he wrote this short story about this 0:37:21.160 --> 0:37:26.000 platonic relationship between a patriotic gay man and a patriotic 0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:31.560 human heterosexual member of the communist youth who develop a 0:37:31.560 --> 0:37:34.239 respect for each other. And it's like, even though like 0:37:34.280 --> 0:37:36.759 the gay man is alienated from state policies because of 0:37:36.800 --> 0:37:39.560 the persecution of LGBT people, he actually knows a lot 0:37:39.600 --> 0:37:42.839 more about history and culturing Cuba than the heterosexual guy 0:37:43.080 --> 0:37:46.319 who's raw ra revolution but doesn't actually know like all 0:37:46.360 --> 0:37:49.040 these important writers and artists and and things like that 0:37:49.040 --> 0:37:52.359 that are also important for Cuban national identity. That When 0:37:52.360 --> 0:37:54.840 that was first read in the Castable Samericas, which is 0:37:54.840 --> 0:37:59.800 like this huge building for human culture, people wept just openly. 0:38:00.000 --> 0:38:03.200 And then it was made into a movie called So 0:38:03.280 --> 0:38:06.319 Strawberry and Chocolate. I can explain the type people want, 0:38:06.360 --> 0:38:08.880 but basically it basically it's the same story. It's expanded 0:38:08.880 --> 0:38:11.080 a bit because the original was short story, and you 0:38:11.120 --> 0:38:12.640 can actually get it in the United States. I think 0:38:13.040 --> 0:38:16.879 Paramount bought the rights for distribution. Fox maybe bought the rights. 0:38:16.880 --> 0:38:21.640 I don't know, but it was came out in and 0:38:22.600 --> 0:38:29.200 it was a big turning point for public public perception, right. Um. 0:38:29.320 --> 0:38:33.319 Actually have a friend of mine was who who knows 0:38:33.480 --> 0:38:36.200 who knows? The offer? He was stopped at his building 0:38:36.440 --> 0:38:38.440 and this the wife of a colonel who lives in 0:38:38.440 --> 0:38:41.320 this building says, my husband wants to see my friends, 0:38:41.360 --> 0:38:44.440 like would you what did I do? It goes up 0:38:44.480 --> 0:38:46.520 to the colonel's house. The colonel says that you want 0:38:46.560 --> 0:38:48.759 coffe or anything? I said. My friends says no. The 0:38:48.800 --> 0:38:52.280 colonel says, explained to me this film that's come out recently, 0:38:52.280 --> 0:38:55.680 because the colonel wasn't gonna see it in theaters. Then 0:38:55.840 --> 0:38:58.440 my friend explains the movie and guy says no, no no, 0:38:58.440 --> 0:39:01.479 no explain everything. So basically my friend does a scene 0:39:01.480 --> 0:39:05.360 by seeing synopsis for memory, and after like an hour 0:39:05.480 --> 0:39:08.240 and change in this guy's house, the Colonel's just sitting 0:39:08.239 --> 0:39:11.400 there not saying anything. He said, If I understood this 0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:15.400 and seeing this earlier, things might have been different, like 0:39:15.400 --> 0:39:18.880 like thank you. It's it's a huge turning point culturally, 0:39:19.000 --> 0:39:22.799 and then politically you also have Maria la castro So. 0:39:22.880 --> 0:39:26.279 Maria la castro is daughter of Rool castro So, niece 0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:29.719 of Fidel, and she from within the government, using her 0:39:29.760 --> 0:39:32.840 position of privilege, really starts to push for better LGBT 0:39:32.960 --> 0:39:35.759 policies for resil GBP people in better know laws and 0:39:35.840 --> 0:39:39.359 runs and she at the head of the Sentesex, which 0:39:39.400 --> 0:39:44.560 is the National Center for Sex Education. She really starts 0:39:44.560 --> 0:39:46.680 to spearhead and improvement, and we start to see the 0:39:46.760 --> 0:39:50.200 nineteen nineties and two thousand's not just a pulling back 0:39:50.360 --> 0:39:53.560 of persecution, at least official persecution. You know, you can 0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:58.240 still have informal prosecute level of jobs. But you also 0:39:58.280 --> 0:40:01.000 start to see things like l trans people can have 0:40:01.280 --> 0:40:04.919 gender firming surgery backed by the state, you know, free 0:40:04.920 --> 0:40:08.440 of cost, Like all these sorts of different protections and 0:40:08.480 --> 0:40:11.560 policies like the SENTISEX will if there's like a homophobic 0:40:11.600 --> 0:40:14.400 incident to the school, they can send out somebody to 0:40:14.600 --> 0:40:17.520 give a talk and say, this is why persecuting someone 0:40:17.560 --> 0:40:20.080 for their gender identity or the sexual orientation is wrong. 0:40:20.360 --> 0:40:22.840 But but but you really see a shift in the 0:40:22.840 --> 0:40:25.680 position of the state. And that's not just Mariella. I 0:40:25.719 --> 0:40:29.800 don't want to make it about Mariella, but behind her 0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:33.080 is of course all these other these LGBT people who 0:40:33.239 --> 0:40:37.279 would not be in the position to demand this for themselves. 0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:40.240 But she definitely spearheads this and I think she deserves 0:40:40.239 --> 0:40:42.400 some merit for that. Yeah, it's interesting that they have 0:40:42.520 --> 0:40:44.160 like that they have a level of sort of buying 0:40:45.160 --> 0:40:48.240 from the state, because I think, like that doesn't happen 0:40:48.520 --> 0:40:51.600 in like China or Vietnam, and like you know, I 0:40:51.600 --> 0:40:55.759 mean like Vietnam, like there has actually been stuff there 0:40:55.760 --> 0:40:57.799 and the last like year where there's been a lot 0:40:57.800 --> 0:41:01.719 of real progress, but like they like literally one month 0:41:01.760 --> 0:41:04.800 ago the government was like we're going to declare almost 0:41:04.840 --> 0:41:08.680 axuality no longer like a mental illness, and like that's 0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:13.600 sort of just like a month ago, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:41:14.440 --> 0:41:16.560 and then there's only people like cool people have been 0:41:16.560 --> 0:41:18.200 fighting for in Vietnam for like a long time. But 0:41:18.239 --> 0:41:20.080 like and even then, like there's this whole thing there 0:41:20.120 --> 0:41:26.160 where like people like you get you get this because 0:41:26.520 --> 0:41:29.080 you talked to medical people in like you start to doctors, 0:41:29.520 --> 0:41:31.319 you get this thing where like, well, okay, so there's 0:41:31.360 --> 0:41:33.000 like real and the other thing, the thing that is 0:41:33.560 --> 0:41:36.359 outlawed conversion therapy. But if you talk to doctors about 0:41:36.360 --> 0:41:37.919 the doctors are like, well, there are real gay gay 0:41:37.960 --> 0:41:40.359 people and there are fake gay people, and the real 0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:42.759 gay people you can't do conversion therapy on. But but 0:41:42.800 --> 0:41:44.839 this rule there, but these guys are like, this ruling 0:41:44.840 --> 0:41:46.759 only covers the real gay people, doesn't cover the fake 0:41:46.760 --> 0:41:49.760 gay people because the conversion therapy like it's it's a disaster, 0:41:49.960 --> 0:41:52.799 and like I I don't know, like it's and like 0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:55.879 China also has been really bleak. Like I'm just gonna 0:41:55.880 --> 0:41:57.120 you're talking about a lot about sort of like the 0:41:57.120 --> 0:41:59.160 effect the media has on it. I'm gonna read this 0:41:59.239 --> 0:42:03.200 thing from the Chinese General Rules for Television Drama Content 0:42:03.280 --> 0:42:07.000 Production from ples and fifteen, which Okay, I've seen conflicting things, 0:42:07.080 --> 0:42:10.080 but I think this is still in effect. If it's 0:42:10.080 --> 0:42:12.839 not still in effect, it was only reversed in one, 0:42:13.440 --> 0:42:15.440 but I think it's still in effect. And also there 0:42:15.440 --> 0:42:17.160 have been new sort of guidelines have been put out 0:42:17.160 --> 0:42:19.840 from movies that are about like I mean the specifically 0:42:19.840 --> 0:42:21.600 the stuff are like you you can't have gay men 0:42:21.719 --> 0:42:23.719 in movies. You can't have men they were to effeminate 0:42:23.719 --> 0:42:26.000 in movies, Like you can't have men that look like 0:42:26.000 --> 0:42:27.839 they're cross dressing in movies. I'm gonna read this thing 0:42:27.840 --> 0:42:30.040 from the TV code. Um so this is this is 0:42:30.080 --> 0:42:32.960 stuff that he says is explicitly is not to be shown. 0:42:33.760 --> 0:42:38.240 Content which depicts or portrays unnatural sexual relations and actions 0:42:38.280 --> 0:42:43.760 such as incests, homosexuality, perversion, sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual violence, etcetera. 0:42:44.080 --> 0:42:47.239 This is Vision Best Version two Rission three. Content which 0:42:47.280 --> 0:42:51.160 portrays and promulgates unhealthy perspectives on marriage and married loves 0:42:51.680 --> 0:42:54.880 such as extra marital love, one night stands, free love, etcetera. 0:42:55.520 --> 0:43:00.920 Sorry try guys not allowed. Yeah no, like it's like 0:43:01.080 --> 0:43:05.960 it's oh god, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna do a 0:43:05.960 --> 0:43:11.839 tray guys joke every episode for a down never never 0:43:12.520 --> 0:43:17.920 off the recording. The French are surely complaining that the 0:43:18.000 --> 0:43:20.680 ban on cheating on your wife is an imposition on 0:43:20.680 --> 0:43:24.960 their culture. Yeah, definitely, that's actually extremely racist against the French. 0:43:27.520 --> 0:43:30.400 The actually he said it doesn't mention I was gonna 0:43:30.400 --> 0:43:33.440 make up I was gonna make a French film pedophilia joke. 0:43:33.440 --> 0:43:36.239 But it doesn't actually ban it bands incests, but it 0:43:36.239 --> 0:43:38.960 doesn't actually ban like that. I mean, I think the 0:43:40.239 --> 0:43:42.120 on I think I on pedophile I think I think 0:43:42.120 --> 0:43:43.760 it's a different section of the code that I didn't 0:43:44.200 --> 0:43:48.640 coffee here. But yeah, and I think part of what 0:43:48.680 --> 0:43:50.920 was going on there was like like there wasn't like 0:43:51.520 --> 0:43:54.440 I mean, I think things have gotten like it the 0:43:54.719 --> 0:43:56.959 law that was being used to arrest like gay people 0:43:57.000 --> 0:43:59.840 in China like was dayballish in the nineties, but like 0:44:00.680 --> 0:44:03.280 and like there was a culture shift, but it didn't 0:44:04.040 --> 0:44:05.840 like the state decided it was going to do the 0:44:05.880 --> 0:44:07.799 same thing the US state which is doing, which is 0:44:07.840 --> 0:44:11.000 like do this sort of backlash to it, and it didn't. 0:44:11.080 --> 0:44:13.640 Like that kind of stuff didn't happen, which is I 0:44:13.640 --> 0:44:16.480 think really bleak. But also like is genuinely is a 0:44:16.560 --> 0:44:20.120 thing that like like yeah, like the good good good 0:44:20.160 --> 0:44:23.280 for good for the Cuban people, good for Cuba, like glad, 0:44:23.320 --> 0:44:28.279 glad you all are doing this because like mador Win. Yeah, 0:44:28.320 --> 0:44:30.320 because because it because you know, like you can you 0:44:30.360 --> 0:44:33.040 can see what happens when like this doesn't happen, which 0:44:33.120 --> 0:44:36.239 is all of this bullshit that exists in a lot 0:44:36.239 --> 0:44:38.600 of the other sort of post Soviet like or post 0:44:38.600 --> 0:44:42.640 communist countries. Yeah, I think that Cuba would have done 0:44:42.640 --> 0:44:46.520 it eventually, but I think that Mariela definitely just sped 0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:50.759 it along. Like there's there's definitely a problem of a 0:44:50.800 --> 0:44:53.839 cult of Mariella, where like abroad where it's like all 0:44:53.880 --> 0:44:56.879 all things be great, be due to Mariella. It's like 0:44:57.360 --> 0:44:59.640 completely cuts out all the people behind her, you know 0:44:59.680 --> 0:45:03.759 who something like please ask ask your uncle. That's for me. 0:45:04.000 --> 0:45:07.600 I gotta get married someday. But you know, but at 0:45:07.600 --> 0:45:09.279 the same time, I think we can't cut around of 0:45:09.280 --> 0:45:13.919 the story either. Yeah, and that gets us to, well, 0:45:13.920 --> 0:45:15.520 I guess, I guess you're starting quitting that tea first. 0:45:15.520 --> 0:45:18.000 But yeah, there's the new family code that's passed. Which 0:45:18.400 --> 0:45:20.160 also I do want to mention this because I don't 0:45:20.160 --> 0:45:22.160 think like people don't even know this when I tell 0:45:22.200 --> 0:45:25.600 them about this, about neither China nor Vietnam is game 0:45:26.200 --> 0:45:28.840 in neither tryinga nor Vietnam is game marriage legal. And 0:45:28.880 --> 0:45:30.840 there's a lot of people who think that the repeal 0:45:30.840 --> 0:45:33.600 that happened in Vietnam legalized gay marriage, and that's not 0:45:33.760 --> 0:45:37.040 what happens. Like the thing that it did is you 0:45:37.080 --> 0:45:40.000 will no longer be arrested for having your own unofficial marriage, 0:45:40.960 --> 0:45:44.000 which is a thing that could happen. But this is this, 0:45:44.000 --> 0:45:46.399 this is this is not this is not the thing 0:45:46.480 --> 0:45:49.359 that is happening in Cuba. Like I see those are 0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:50.960 people a lot where like something good will happen in 0:45:50.960 --> 0:45:53.880 Cuba and people will prorect it onto like China, and 0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:56.640 it's like that's no, like they're not the same place, 0:45:57.040 --> 0:45:59.680 Like don't, don't, don't do this with this stuff. Don't 0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:02.080 project the Cuban medical system onto the Chinese medical system. 0:46:02.080 --> 0:46:06.719 They're not the same. Please stop. Yeah yeah, yeah, okay, 0:46:06.760 --> 0:46:08.560 but yeah, going on to stuff that's good and this stuff, 0:46:08.640 --> 0:46:11.960 but on also the sort of like yeah, so can 0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:14.440 we talk a bit about like what talk about like 0:46:14.480 --> 0:46:21.719 the nineteen referendum and the sort of like the stuff 0:46:21.760 --> 0:46:25.719 about sort of how do you like the story of 0:46:25.719 --> 0:46:32.080 how the stuff that's happening now didn't happen in yeah happening. Yeah, 0:46:32.120 --> 0:46:37.279 so so when the in the Raoul Castro who who 0:46:37.440 --> 0:46:41.640 took over after fidel Um. He began using a bunch 0:46:41.640 --> 0:46:45.719 of referendums decide major things, major policy changes, and using 0:46:45.760 --> 0:46:49.240 referendums kind of just till like because like the because 0:46:49.280 --> 0:46:53.400 the Nationalist police basically reberen stamp committee like referendums really 0:46:53.440 --> 0:46:55.799 took to the four as a way to like channelize, 0:46:56.400 --> 0:47:01.120 channel support and you know, show popular acquiescence to major 0:47:01.200 --> 0:47:05.000 changes among the constitution. So as part of the they 0:47:05.000 --> 0:47:08.480 did a draft constitution. They debated it their debase all 0:47:08.520 --> 0:47:11.880 around the country at local levels, in in in in 0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:17.920 neighborhoods and workplaces, and people gave feedback the um marriage 0:47:17.920 --> 0:47:21.239 equality and and and things connected to it, which we 0:47:21.280 --> 0:47:23.400 can get into in a second. These were part of 0:47:23.640 --> 0:47:26.080 for the most part, part of the twenty nineteen Constitution, 0:47:26.480 --> 0:47:32.920 but there was a lot of pushback. Um, Like, obviously, 0:47:33.000 --> 0:47:37.160 if if the state has been repressing LGBT people for decades, 0:47:37.680 --> 0:47:40.920 that part of their coalition just doesn't stop overnight, does 0:47:40.960 --> 0:47:43.560 It doesn't just stop being bigoted overnight because of you know, 0:47:43.600 --> 0:47:46.680 a change in policy. So you know, it wasn't just 0:47:46.880 --> 0:47:50.359 that the religious right, like evangelicals, there are a lot 0:47:50.440 --> 0:47:54.040 of evangelicals in Cuba right now, there's a growing evangelical population, 0:47:54.080 --> 0:47:57.560 I'm sorry to say, yeah, backed by the joical money. 0:47:58.400 --> 0:48:04.399 Uh no, please pressing the wrong people. And and then 0:48:04.440 --> 0:48:09.239 there's the Catholic right obviously you know, much more you know, 0:48:09.680 --> 0:48:13.279 discreetly but still very you know, against this. Uh. And 0:48:13.320 --> 0:48:16.040 there was enough pushback that the government was worried that 0:48:17.640 --> 0:48:19.240 I don't know if they were worried that the constitution 0:48:19.320 --> 0:48:22.440 the referendum would fail entirely, but it did seem like 0:48:22.520 --> 0:48:25.920 they were worried that it would lower the voting percentage 0:48:25.960 --> 0:48:28.800 in favor of the new constitution enough that it would 0:48:29.000 --> 0:48:32.280 hurt the new constitution's legitimacy or something. So they decided 0:48:32.360 --> 0:48:37.360 to carve off the more controversial parts about the LGBT 0:48:37.560 --> 0:48:41.040 rights and basically carve them off, pushed them into a 0:48:41.120 --> 0:48:44.320 referendum on the family code with all the new laws 0:48:44.560 --> 0:48:47.400 based on the new constitution, all the new laws governing 0:48:47.440 --> 0:48:51.120 family law, and pump that down the road indefinitely. And 0:48:51.160 --> 0:48:54.600 so what's happening now that would just happened is the 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:57.000 culmination of this red friendom that they punted down the 0:48:57.040 --> 0:49:00.760 road in twenty nine. The original constitution stuition was passed 0:49:01.160 --> 0:49:06.000 with something like approval, uh, and and this was just 0:49:06.080 --> 0:49:08.359 kind of left it on the to do list. And 0:49:08.400 --> 0:49:11.600 then with the current crisis in Cuba, I mean like 0:49:11.760 --> 0:49:13.320 there's a couple of there's a couple of ways to 0:49:13.360 --> 0:49:16.160 read this, but I think one of the most obvious 0:49:16.280 --> 0:49:20.200 is that, uh, the Cuban government needed to win, and 0:49:20.440 --> 0:49:22.920 this was an easy win. They could actually deliver in 0:49:22.920 --> 0:49:27.120 the age of extreme scarcity and rolling blackouts. It's like, 0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:29.560 we can just at least deliver on this promise, and 0:49:29.600 --> 0:49:33.799 they did. So Yeah, I guess, So can we talk 0:49:33.840 --> 0:49:36.319 a bit about like what what what what actually is 0:49:36.480 --> 0:49:40.879 in the new code and what like what what it does? Yeah? 0:49:41.080 --> 0:49:43.840 So it does. It does a bunch of pretty cool things. 0:49:44.280 --> 0:49:46.920 It legalizes same sex marriage, which is great for a 0:49:46.920 --> 0:49:50.359 lot of people, not just because you know, not not 0:49:50.440 --> 0:49:53.160 just because of the principle of it, but also things like, Okay, 0:49:53.360 --> 0:49:56.839 you're separating from your partner, but everything is under your 0:49:56.840 --> 0:49:59.440 partner's name. You're not never need like Mary and what 0:49:59.600 --> 0:50:01.440 you're right, pop up up up us so you like 0:50:01.719 --> 0:50:05.240 for for separation for immigration, if you're trying to immigrate 0:50:05.280 --> 0:50:07.759 and you're not married to your spouse, you know, you know, 0:50:07.880 --> 0:50:11.600 if you're trying to inheritance all these kinds of things. Yeah, 0:50:11.640 --> 0:50:14.480 this is gonna be. This is like important in concrete 0:50:14.520 --> 0:50:19.359 material ways. It legalizes adoption by same sex couples, which 0:50:19.400 --> 0:50:22.400 is also pretty cool. That was not allowed at all. 0:50:22.520 --> 0:50:25.520 Good it wasn't before. Glad, Glad, glad, glad. You can 0:50:25.520 --> 0:50:28.000 now do that. That that's good. Hopefully we can still 0:50:28.040 --> 0:50:33.040 continue to do that here for like you more years 0:50:33.040 --> 0:50:39.759 at least. Like yeah, Um, it legalizes surrogacy and same 0:50:39.800 --> 0:50:43.799 scop sex couples can can benefit from can use surgacy now, 0:50:44.320 --> 0:50:48.000 although on a not for profit basis, and that's that's specific. 0:50:48.400 --> 0:50:51.319 I am not an expert on whether or not it 0:50:51.440 --> 0:50:53.440 is the best policy to have it as only not 0:50:53.520 --> 0:50:55.920 for profit. Um. I know that there's a lot of 0:50:55.920 --> 0:50:58.880 debate over it, but the law says not for profit 0:50:58.920 --> 0:51:02.160 only for surrogacy. But that's still another option for people. 0:51:02.320 --> 0:51:06.279 In addition to adoption. UH. It expands civil unions to 0:51:06.320 --> 0:51:11.440 be much more inclusive. They're called uh in Spanish, so 0:51:11.480 --> 0:51:14.040 now they are much more inclusive. And also you know, 0:51:14.680 --> 0:51:16.560 you know, you you don't have to get married. You 0:51:16.600 --> 0:51:18.960 can get a civil union if you can we explain 0:51:19.000 --> 0:51:22.120 what that is, because that was a like there there 0:51:22.160 --> 0:51:24.319 was a whole thing in the US, like in the 0:51:24.360 --> 0:51:26.480 in the two thousand's about like oh, like you can 0:51:26.520 --> 0:51:28.040 do civil Like there was a period it was like 0:51:28.040 --> 0:51:29.439 there are a lot of places you can get civil unions, 0:51:29.440 --> 0:51:31.239 but you couldn't get married. So can you explain what 0:51:31.239 --> 0:51:33.120 a civil union is? Because I think that's a thing 0:51:33.160 --> 0:51:36.040 that like a lot of our audience probably isn't gonna 0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:40.399 like remember when that was a thing anyone talked about. Sure, 0:51:40.440 --> 0:51:44.840 I mean, like I'm I'm not a lawyer. Yeah, My 0:51:45.000 --> 0:51:48.480 understanding is it is it is a way to recognize 0:51:48.480 --> 0:51:54.720 your basically partners. You have some rights, and it helps 0:51:54.800 --> 0:51:59.040 with some issues of like I think it also varies 0:51:59.040 --> 0:52:01.319 country to country, but it's basically like a step down 0:52:01.360 --> 0:52:08.240 from the full commitment of marriage, is my understanding. Um, sorry, 0:52:08.280 --> 0:52:10.880 that's less No, Yeah, I know, like that that was 0:52:10.920 --> 0:52:13.719 that was by understanding of it. It was like like 0:52:13.760 --> 0:52:15.279 in the US, it was this whole thing of like, well, 0:52:15.320 --> 0:52:16.880 you can have still union, so you don't need to 0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:21.200 be married. And then people were like no, because he 0:52:21.239 --> 0:52:22.640 doesn't give you doesn't give you this sort of full 0:52:22.640 --> 0:52:26.319 suite of rights and stuff, but it gives you some 0:52:26.600 --> 0:52:30.320 things which I'm glad. I'm glad he was doing, Like no, 0:52:30.440 --> 0:52:31.960 you could do both of these things. And then wasn't 0:52:31.960 --> 0:52:35.600 there something about like like yeah, there there were changes 0:52:35.680 --> 0:52:40.480 to like what like changes to what can be recognized 0:52:40.520 --> 0:52:43.799 as a family That is the part that I've seen 0:52:44.200 --> 0:52:47.879 the most, Like I have read a bunch about this, 0:52:48.360 --> 0:52:51.560 and I'm I still feel like this is something that's 0:52:51.680 --> 0:52:56.480 not it's not entirely clear what this is going to 0:52:56.600 --> 0:53:01.880 look like in practice. So basically, in expect has the 0:53:02.000 --> 0:53:04.759 what the legal definition of what can constitute as a 0:53:04.840 --> 0:53:08.880 family unit uh to be more focused less focused on 0:53:08.920 --> 0:53:12.800 blood ties and more focused on affective ties so love, affection, 0:53:13.000 --> 0:53:16.000 you know, caring for each other. Uh. So that for example, 0:53:16.360 --> 0:53:20.120 let's say, I think like the big hypothetical that was 0:53:20.160 --> 0:53:23.440 held up was like grandparents, so like if the parents 0:53:23.480 --> 0:53:27.080 aren't around, but in practice, these people are the ones 0:53:27.160 --> 0:53:30.960 that raise you, you know that you know, for for 0:53:30.960 --> 0:53:32.440 for legal stuff that has to do with kids in 0:53:32.480 --> 0:53:35.040 family law, like we can consider this a family unit, 0:53:36.320 --> 0:53:40.120 is my understanding. It's still really murky and it's not 0:53:40.200 --> 0:53:45.080 really helping me feel like like the r things I've 0:53:45.120 --> 0:53:48.440 read on this also seem to be kind of like like, 0:53:48.560 --> 0:53:50.919 here's an explanation. I'm like that that doesn't really help 0:53:50.920 --> 0:53:54.720 me understand this at all. It is a little and 0:53:54.520 --> 0:53:57.480 and I've seen people running about this is like human 0:53:57.520 --> 0:54:02.600 government has abolished the family. Ray, I'm like, didn't. Yeah, 0:54:02.960 --> 0:54:05.719 And for everything everybody, it seems like it's a they 0:54:05.760 --> 0:54:08.440 abolished the family. It's that they've allowed you to change 0:54:08.480 --> 0:54:11.479 what a family is in the like in the eyes 0:54:11.520 --> 0:54:15.920 of the state, which is not the same thing, right, 0:54:16.000 --> 0:54:22.120 Like it's it's like giving you more wiggle grew. Yeah, um, 0:54:22.280 --> 0:54:24.399 is my understanding. But again, it's one of those things 0:54:24.400 --> 0:54:27.920 where I feel like everyone who I've seen running with 0:54:27.960 --> 0:54:31.440 it has run with a completely different, very triumphilist explanation 0:54:31.480 --> 0:54:34.080 that are sometimes mutually contradictory. And I'm like, I'd like 0:54:34.120 --> 0:54:36.160 to see what this actually looks like in practice and 0:54:36.200 --> 0:54:40.120 like seeing the effects better because it's it's an underdiscussed 0:54:40.239 --> 0:54:43.319 dynamic of it because like what most people abroad we're 0:54:43.360 --> 0:54:47.000 looking at was like same sex marriage, so like this 0:54:47.239 --> 0:54:52.000 so that was less discussed, But I mean it seems 0:54:52.040 --> 0:54:55.200 to be positive. The thing that the thing that caused 0:54:55.200 --> 0:54:58.160 more controversy on the island was there was a shift 0:54:58.239 --> 0:55:06.320 to patio stad, which is uh father paternal rights basically 0:55:06.880 --> 0:55:11.520 parental rights right and um, Basically, the idea is to 0:55:11.600 --> 0:55:16.759 switch the child from nearly being a subject of their 0:55:16.800 --> 0:55:19.520 parents will in theory they have more rights and our 0:55:19.640 --> 0:55:21.879 subject on their own, even if they're just a kid 0:55:22.920 --> 0:55:27.520 that's trying, yeah, to like prevent things like corporal punishments 0:55:27.520 --> 0:55:30.359 and things like that you can't be your kids, which 0:55:30.400 --> 0:55:34.720 also seems like a positive change. I would would would 0:55:34.760 --> 0:55:36.719 love more of that in the US to just like 0:55:37.239 --> 0:55:41.360 absolutely clobber the like parental rights people because oh my 0:55:41.560 --> 0:55:46.359 fucking they're they're going to kill us all yeah. And 0:55:46.400 --> 0:55:48.759 I mean the funny thing is like every time that 0:55:48.840 --> 0:55:52.200 there's a leftist movement, the thing is always there coming 0:55:52.200 --> 0:55:56.280 for your kids. And then like oh god, yeah anyway, 0:55:56.680 --> 0:56:01.719 sorry no, yeah, like it's right has one thing and 0:56:01.760 --> 0:56:06.080 it's the same thing every time. Yeah, those are the 0:56:06.160 --> 0:56:10.040 kind of the big things reds. The only thing I 0:56:10.080 --> 0:56:14.439 wanted to talk about was like, I okay, so there 0:56:14.520 --> 0:56:17.960 was a thing of okay, so like obviously it passed 0:56:17.960 --> 0:56:22.440 with like sixt seven percent of the vote. I think, um, 0:56:22.560 --> 0:56:25.439 something like that, like basically two theories of the vote um, 0:56:25.719 --> 0:56:28.920 and I want to talk a bit about like, Okay, 0:56:28.920 --> 0:56:31.000 so something I saw Okay, so like, okay, so you 0:56:31.080 --> 0:56:34.240 have the people who voted against it because they're Christian 0:56:35.080 --> 0:56:38.239 and they suck um and the young people who are 0:56:38.239 --> 0:56:43.040 just homophobic non Christian homophobes, non Christian homophobes. But then 0:56:43.040 --> 0:56:46.680 there was also like something that I saw that was 0:56:46.760 --> 0:56:50.040 like like people in opposition groups being like, we're going 0:56:50.080 --> 0:56:54.439 to vote against this as like a vote against the government, which, yeah, 0:56:54.480 --> 0:56:58.000 can we explain what that was about, because that's yeah, sure. 0:56:58.440 --> 0:57:01.040 And I think that you also have of a division 0:57:01.080 --> 0:57:03.440 there between the people who are like, it's really against 0:57:03.520 --> 0:57:07.759 the government, but really it's against the change thought about 0:57:08.120 --> 0:57:10.160 like I think that even there it's a mixed bag 0:57:10.320 --> 0:57:15.919 of both. But um, basically, the idea was that by 0:57:16.040 --> 0:57:19.600 approving this, uh and voting in favor of something cooked 0:57:19.640 --> 0:57:21.440 up by the government, that they were giving credence to 0:57:21.440 --> 0:57:25.920 the government, legitimacy to the government. Uh. Ergo, the only 0:57:25.960 --> 0:57:30.560 moral position was either extension or voting now uh. And 0:57:31.080 --> 0:57:33.920 so I mean, again a lot of it's mixed up 0:57:33.920 --> 0:57:36.200 with They also really as a rule, did not like 0:57:36.240 --> 0:57:39.720 the content of the law. I mean, the part of 0:57:39.760 --> 0:57:43.200 the thing is like it's the the the opposition is 0:57:43.200 --> 0:57:46.560 in this weird space right now where they have like 0:57:46.680 --> 0:57:49.920 the more historical branch, which is you have like a 0:57:49.920 --> 0:57:53.720 historical branch that it's like rapidly far right. Uh. And 0:57:53.760 --> 0:57:56.360 then you have there's a lot of overlap with like 0:57:56.720 --> 0:58:00.920 default Catholic right in there uh and the Catholic of 0:58:00.960 --> 0:58:03.360 far rights in there as I'm sure you understand what 0:58:03.360 --> 0:58:07.720 that means. But but but then you also have a 0:58:07.920 --> 0:58:14.200 growing prominent liberal contingent um who speaks better not just 0:58:14.320 --> 0:58:17.280 that doesn't just put on a better face for international audiences, 0:58:17.480 --> 0:58:21.680 but also puts on a better face for Cuban audiences. Um. 0:58:21.800 --> 0:58:25.600 And because like Cuba is not a far right wing 0:58:25.760 --> 0:58:29.280 society like for example, abortion, Like I spoke to a 0:58:29.400 --> 0:58:32.120 right wing Cuban who left who's like, yeah, I like 0:58:32.440 --> 0:58:34.280 Ben Shapira and a lot of what he says, but 0:58:34.360 --> 0:58:36.760 I don't get his obsession with abortion. That's a woman's right, 0:58:36.800 --> 0:58:40.280 Like that's just so weird to me. It's because like 0:58:40.280 --> 0:58:43.400 Cubans aren't aren't necessarily super religious as well, which is 0:58:43.440 --> 0:58:45.240 a big part of it. Uh and slimant to the 0:58:45.240 --> 0:58:49.840 petis and all that. So the the so so that's 0:58:49.920 --> 0:58:52.720 so they're they're kind of like a but like it's 0:58:52.720 --> 0:58:55.240 like cats and dogs tied into a sack. So there's 0:58:55.400 --> 0:58:58.120 like you have these different opposition figures. And I think 0:58:58.120 --> 0:59:02.560 that the really right wing ones know that they can't 0:59:03.120 --> 0:59:07.280 be as openly homophobic as they used to be, and 0:59:07.600 --> 0:59:09.800 so they need to couch it in a different way. 0:59:09.840 --> 0:59:11.800 I think it's not just that I don't want to 0:59:11.800 --> 0:59:13.760 reduce everyone to that, but I do think that's a 0:59:13.880 --> 0:59:18.000 huge part of that project. And then in addition to that, 0:59:18.120 --> 0:59:20.400 just people who are like anything that the government does 0:59:20.600 --> 0:59:24.000 is bad because they're accelerationists, which is another big part 0:59:24.000 --> 0:59:27.040 of the opposite. Know why is every why is everybody 0:59:27.080 --> 0:59:30.120 an acceleration is? Now? This is the worst I I 0:59:30.280 --> 0:59:34.320 I an acceleration I don't think. I wonder if it's 0:59:34.400 --> 0:59:38.000 material reality is a trick to that to the I 0:59:38.000 --> 0:59:40.160 am going to take a time machine. I am going 0:59:40.240 --> 0:59:42.880 to hunt down nick Land, and I am going to 0:59:42.920 --> 0:59:45.680 stop the g RU from forming, and no one will 0:59:45.760 --> 0:59:48.560 ever know what acceleration is. Is that you know that's 0:59:48.600 --> 0:59:51.040 not true. Without nick Land, someone else would come up 0:59:51.040 --> 0:59:54.120 with with accelerationism. It's a very easy thing to think 0:59:54.120 --> 0:59:59.440 of to to to be fair to Nick Land, at 0:59:59.680 --> 1:00:02.280 at LEAs his version of accelerationism had to do with 1:00:02.360 --> 1:00:06.560 like at least there was everyone. Yeah, like the first 1:00:06.600 --> 1:00:09.840 of accelerationism. We're like, like capitalism is the human machine 1:00:09.880 --> 1:00:11.560 that's also a god that only exists in but that 1:00:11.600 --> 1:00:15.720 it exists continuously in potential and all all of you, 1:00:15.840 --> 1:00:19.920 like the market being irresistible because because because because it's 1:00:20.080 --> 1:00:23.680 like the market itself is the thinking machine that this 1:00:23.760 --> 1:00:27.880 is at least funny. Yeah, the moder stuff is, oh god, 1:00:28.080 --> 1:00:31.439 this is like they I longed for the days where 1:00:31.560 --> 1:00:33.560 there was an argument where people where people would do 1:00:33.560 --> 1:00:36.920 the modern accelerationist thing and like the land Ends were go, no, no, no, 1:00:36.960 --> 1:00:41.280 that's not what accelerationism is. It's just that I hate 1:00:41.320 --> 1:00:45.360 this reality. It's the worst. Yeah. So I mean, like, 1:00:46.000 --> 1:00:48.640 I think I think a good chunk of the opposition 1:00:48.680 --> 1:00:51.760 movement can be described as alex accelerationist. It's not just 1:00:52.200 --> 1:00:54.800 it's not just accelerationists, but I do think a lot 1:00:54.840 --> 1:00:58.600 of them are in there. Any improvements to anything is 1:00:58.600 --> 1:01:01.200 helping the government. That's why the support the embargo. That's 1:01:01.200 --> 1:01:03.400 why they don't want an improvement on any laws. They 1:01:03.440 --> 1:01:06.720 want things to be as dysfunctional as possible because they 1:01:06.760 --> 1:01:10.200 think that like the government is incapable of actually getting 1:01:10.560 --> 1:01:13.040 doing better, and to the extent that it becomes better 1:01:13.120 --> 1:01:15.479 and stronger, it's just going to be more repressive ergo. 1:01:15.560 --> 1:01:19.080 The solution is bring the country to a standstill so 1:01:19.120 --> 1:01:21.880 there will be a general strike and overthrow the government. 1:01:21.920 --> 1:01:25.120 That's their plan. I think that seems like a terrible plan. 1:01:25.560 --> 1:01:27.960 I'm just gonna gonna throw that out there. That's that, 1:01:29.240 --> 1:01:31.480 Like I get at that at that point, Like why 1:01:31.520 --> 1:01:33.640 do why not just become a terrorist? Like I don't know, 1:01:33.880 --> 1:01:38.440 like because that's because that's more scary. Yeah, that's the 1:01:38.480 --> 1:01:42.440 actual reason. Yeah, It's like it's people. It's people, people 1:01:42.440 --> 1:01:45.440 who were too cowardly to like kill someone with their 1:01:45.480 --> 1:01:48.400 own bombs, so they kill people by trying to get 1:01:48.400 --> 1:01:53.440 sanctions due instead, which is like no, although there have 1:01:53.600 --> 1:01:57.520 there happened, there happen terms there was the realist. He 1:01:57.560 --> 1:02:00.000 blew up a put a frag bomb in a few 1:02:00.200 --> 1:02:05.640 hotel until the Cuban an Italian tourist. Um. Yeah, actually, 1:02:05.640 --> 1:02:08.440 actually my dad was working on the extradition case to 1:02:08.480 --> 1:02:13.360 get an extraditeto vensquel over that he was yeah, he's 1:02:13.600 --> 1:02:16.160 He also committed the first act so a Cuban, a 1:02:16.240 --> 1:02:20.320 CIA trained Cuban exile committed the first act of terrorism 1:02:20.400 --> 1:02:28.160 involving civil aviation in the Western Hemisphere. That's pretty late. Yeah, 1:02:28.160 --> 1:02:29.680 I mean maybe maybe it was just people were just 1:02:29.720 --> 1:02:32.200 doing it in and maybe it was just a European thing, 1:02:32.240 --> 1:02:33.880 and then the CIA was like, what if we bring 1:02:33.960 --> 1:02:38.400 this here. It's like, no, sure, surely this will work 1:02:38.440 --> 1:02:40.560 better for us that it worked for every other group 1:02:40.880 --> 1:02:45.720 who's hijacked a plane in the nineteen seventies. Oh god, 1:02:47.480 --> 1:02:49.800 this sucks. I hope, I hope those guys have a 1:02:49.840 --> 1:02:55.280 bad time and that. Yeah. Yeah, well at least kicked 1:02:55.280 --> 1:02:58.560 it a couple of years ago. Oh thank god. Okay, 1:02:58.680 --> 1:03:02.160 rest rest in piss official official pot opinion doing. We're 1:03:02.160 --> 1:03:11.360 doing the crabs got these people suck um Yeah yeah, 1:03:11.400 --> 1:03:15.400 so yeah, I guess do you have anything else you 1:03:15.480 --> 1:03:19.760 want to talk about? Or I think that's it. Just 1:03:19.960 --> 1:03:21.640 thanks a lot for having me on. It was it 1:03:21.680 --> 1:03:24.120 was great to be on. Thank thanks for coming on. Yeah. 1:03:24.480 --> 1:03:29.480 Queer rights good, not doing them bad. Don't kill people 1:03:29.480 --> 1:03:35.000 with sanctions. Yeah, definitely. The embargo has been an utter failure. 1:03:35.080 --> 1:03:43.120 Everything in human misery. Yeah, like all right, yeah, and 1:03:43.160 --> 1:03:45.400 I guess, um, yeah, but listening, do you do you 1:03:45.400 --> 1:03:49.200 have do you have stuff you want to plug? Oh? Sure, 1:03:49.760 --> 1:03:52.160 that's that's that's a very good and generous point. Um. 1:03:52.200 --> 1:03:55.760 So you can find me on Twitter at at a 1:03:56.160 --> 1:03:59.480 s R tier up Peas and Peter E r Teas 1:03:59.520 --> 1:04:02.440 and Tom I e r r A. I also have 1:04:02.480 --> 1:04:05.480 a podcast which is linked in my bio. I'm doing 1:04:05.480 --> 1:04:08.640 a history of Cuba um as an academic but spreading 1:04:08.680 --> 1:04:10.840 for a poor popular audience. And we're going way when 1:04:10.880 --> 1:04:12.560 we start with the indigenous people, we don't just jump 1:04:12.640 --> 1:04:16.040 over them, and we're I'm currently working on Columbus and 1:04:16.080 --> 1:04:20.240 then uh, let's see. And I also have a sub 1:04:20.280 --> 1:04:24.000 stack called scene embargo s I N and then the 1:04:24.000 --> 1:04:29.200 word embargo, so yeah, yeah that that's without embargo. If 1:04:29.240 --> 1:04:34.720 I'm Spanish, is okay, yes, it means without embargo, but 1:04:34.760 --> 1:04:38.919 it also sounds like sit embargo, which is I feel like, yeah, 1:04:38.920 --> 1:04:45.000 it would be a cool band theme. So yeah, yeah, 1:04:45.000 --> 1:04:46.400 well we will, we will, we will link to stuff 1:04:46.400 --> 1:04:49.480 and we will link to that in the description. And yeah, 1:04:49.520 --> 1:04:51.080 thank you for joining us. This this has been na 1:04:51.080 --> 1:04:56.040 could happen here? Um? Yeah, make bad things happen to 1:04:56.080 --> 1:05:14.560 homophopes and get good things to happen. Yeah, hello, and 1:05:14.840 --> 1:05:17.200 welcome to It could happen here today. It's just me 1:05:17.320 --> 1:05:19.760 because it's early and I live on the West Coast, 1:05:20.040 --> 1:05:25.200 and today we are talking about America's drug problem. And 1:05:25.360 --> 1:05:29.440 I'm joined by David Mitchell from Patients for Affordable Drugs, 1:05:29.560 --> 1:05:31.880 and we're going to talk about the cost of medicines, 1:05:32.280 --> 1:05:35.200 why it's so astronomically high, why I sometimes go to 1:05:35.240 --> 1:05:37.840 Mexico to buy my instident, and why you probably know 1:05:37.960 --> 1:05:41.280 someone who can't afford the medicines they need to survive 1:05:41.560 --> 1:05:45.480 or maybe thrive. So, David, can you explain a little 1:05:45.480 --> 1:05:47.840 bit about First of you like to introduce yourself and 1:05:47.880 --> 1:05:51.000 explain what Patients for Affordable Drugs does and the role 1:05:51.040 --> 1:05:54.680 that you play there. That would be wonderful. I am 1:05:54.720 --> 1:05:59.000 the founder and president of Patients for Affordable Drugs. Were 1:05:59.040 --> 1:06:05.280 the only national patient organization that focuses exclusively on policies 1:06:05.320 --> 1:06:09.120 to lower drug prices. We're independent, we're bipartisan. We don't 1:06:09.160 --> 1:06:13.840 take money from any organizations that profit from the development 1:06:14.000 --> 1:06:19.520 or distribution of prescription drugs. We do two main things. 1:06:20.240 --> 1:06:26.360 We uh collect patients stories, and we amplify those stories 1:06:26.400 --> 1:06:30.280 to policymakers and elected officials so we can bring home 1:06:30.360 --> 1:06:34.880 the human impact of ridiculously high drug prices on the 1:06:34.960 --> 1:06:38.400 people in the United States. And the second thing is 1:06:38.480 --> 1:06:44.760 that we recruit and train patients to be advocates. UH. 1:06:45.000 --> 1:06:52.360 We teach them about the policies, give them coaching on presentation, UH, 1:06:52.400 --> 1:06:58.320 and UH prepare them to go tell their story and 1:06:58.480 --> 1:07:02.840 deal directly we the people who set policy in this country. 1:07:02.880 --> 1:07:08.240 And so we've had patients testify in state legislatures all 1:07:08.240 --> 1:07:12.360 over the country. We've had patients to testify in Congress 1:07:12.440 --> 1:07:16.840 on many occasions. Just last week, one of our patients, 1:07:16.920 --> 1:07:21.240 who happens to be a Type one diabetic, I introduced 1:07:21.240 --> 1:07:23.800 the President of the United States in the Rose Garden 1:07:24.320 --> 1:07:28.800 in a speech the President made talking about the New 1:07:28.840 --> 1:07:31.520 Inflation Reduction Act and how it's going to help lower 1:07:31.600 --> 1:07:35.000 drug prices and out of pocket costs for people. So 1:07:35.080 --> 1:07:37.600 that that's our work. I do this work because I'm 1:07:37.640 --> 1:07:41.200 a patient. I have an incurable blood cancer. It's called 1:07:41.280 --> 1:07:46.400 multiple my looma. It's incurable. That's not good, but it's 1:07:46.440 --> 1:07:50.920 treatable for some period of time with very expensive drugs. 1:07:51.040 --> 1:07:55.200 Right now, my oncologists have me on a four drug 1:07:55.240 --> 1:08:00.640 combination that carries a list price of more than nine 1:08:01.120 --> 1:08:06.320 thousand dollars a year. Christ these drugs are literally keeping 1:08:06.320 --> 1:08:09.160 me alive, and I'm very grateful to have them, but 1:08:09.280 --> 1:08:17.640 they're wildly overpriced and the the drug industry. Drug companies 1:08:17.760 --> 1:08:22.160 exploit UH patients everywhere in the world, but especially here 1:08:22.520 --> 1:08:25.679 in the United States. They use us as a piggy 1:08:25.680 --> 1:08:31.599 bank to hit their targets for executive bonuses, to trigger 1:08:31.600 --> 1:08:37.439 executive bonuses, and they hit profit targets for their shareholders. UH. 1:08:37.439 --> 1:08:44.840 And the unfairness is not acceptable. Anyway, When I got 1:08:44.880 --> 1:08:50.000 diagnosed and suddenly I found myself with a disease UH 1:08:50.160 --> 1:08:53.919 through no fault of my own, they required very expensive drugs, 1:08:54.520 --> 1:08:57.640 I began this journey, and the journey taught me a 1:08:57.720 --> 1:09:01.439 fundamental point, and that is drugs don't work if people 1:09:01.520 --> 1:09:06.880 can't afford them. And so I retired and decided to 1:09:06.960 --> 1:09:15.280 devote myself as a patient UH to trying to change 1:09:15.280 --> 1:09:18.360 a system in this country there really is built to 1:09:18.600 --> 1:09:21.400 benefit the people who profit from it at the expense 1:09:21.479 --> 1:09:24.479 of the people that's supposed to serve. And I worked 1:09:24.520 --> 1:09:26.640 for free as a volunteer and I've been doing it 1:09:26.680 --> 1:09:29.719 for six years. That's great. Yeah, let's say, I'm sorry 1:09:29.720 --> 1:09:31.800 to hear about your own wealth, but I think it's 1:09:31.840 --> 1:09:34.920 a very admirable thing you've done. So, David, can you 1:09:34.960 --> 1:09:38.880 explain because it does Yah. I think people sometimes maybe 1:09:38.880 --> 1:09:41.320 if they've only lived in the US, they might not realize, 1:09:41.680 --> 1:09:47.160 or perhaps they're extremely aware. Why are medicines so? Why 1:09:47.200 --> 1:09:50.759 can't I travel sixteen miles right, go across the border, 1:09:51.560 --> 1:09:54.960 flash my passport at someone, have a bunch of scans 1:09:55.000 --> 1:09:57.040 taken right, go through a bunch of machines, and then 1:09:57.080 --> 1:10:00.000 buy medicines for less than half the price on any 1:10:00.080 --> 1:10:02.559 given day. Why Why is it like that? It's like 1:10:02.720 --> 1:10:06.760 that because we are the only developed nation in the 1:10:06.800 --> 1:10:12.000 world that lets drug companies dictate the prices a brand 1:10:12.080 --> 1:10:18.919 name drugs to the to their citizens. Every other developed 1:10:18.960 --> 1:10:22.720 country in the world negotiates on behalf of their citizens 1:10:22.720 --> 1:10:26.639 directly with the drug companies to get a better deal. Uh, 1:10:26.680 --> 1:10:30.639 And we don't do that. The net result is that 1:10:31.240 --> 1:10:35.960 Americans are paying almost four times what other wealthy nations 1:10:36.000 --> 1:10:40.920 pay for the exact same brand name drugs. And the 1:10:40.960 --> 1:10:44.800 impact is that three out of ten Americans report that 1:10:45.479 --> 1:10:50.000 they are not able to take their medications as directed 1:10:50.520 --> 1:10:57.080 because of the cost. This has a direct impact on health. Uh. 1:10:57.120 --> 1:11:03.639 And you know, I understand that you are the type 1:11:03.640 --> 1:11:07.320 one and you're insulin dependent, and so you know the 1:11:07.400 --> 1:11:11.639 struggles and the high prices of insulin. But we've had 1:11:12.520 --> 1:11:17.720 five people confirmed dead because they tried to ration their 1:11:17.760 --> 1:11:23.679 insulin in the United States of America. This happens because 1:11:23.720 --> 1:11:28.800 we grant the drug companies this incredible market power, and 1:11:28.880 --> 1:11:32.840 we let them dictate the prices to US, prices that 1:11:32.960 --> 1:11:41.160 are completely unjustified. Uh. And patients suffer financially and worse 1:11:42.200 --> 1:11:47.120 because of their health due to these high prices. Yeah, 1:11:47.200 --> 1:11:49.920 I think it's it's heartbreaking, the stuff like and I've 1:11:49.960 --> 1:11:52.679 known people have died from from lack of access to insulin, 1:11:52.760 --> 1:11:56.559 and it's it's just it's pretty horrific stuff. And can 1:11:56.640 --> 1:11:59.960 you explain, because let's get into that lack of justification, 1:12:00.040 --> 1:12:03.360 and right, there's ways that a drug. The things that 1:12:03.400 --> 1:12:04.720 make up the cost of a drug would be the 1:12:04.800 --> 1:12:10.479 research and development of the drug, the distribution of the drug, 1:12:11.040 --> 1:12:14.639 and the marketing of the drug, and maybe something else 1:12:14.680 --> 1:12:17.840 I'm missing, But can you explain, like, how do we 1:12:18.080 --> 1:12:21.600 arrive at this insane price for insulin which was synthesized 1:12:21.600 --> 1:12:23.559 in a lab more than a hundred years ago. Like, 1:12:23.680 --> 1:12:27.000 what what makes up that price structure and how much 1:12:27.000 --> 1:12:30.960 would it actually cost to produce that insulin if we 1:12:31.000 --> 1:12:35.680 stripped away some of those things. Well, you're asking a 1:12:35.880 --> 1:12:42.000 very intelligent question about what should exist but doesn't, and 1:12:42.040 --> 1:12:45.439 that is a framework to arrive at an appropriate price 1:12:46.080 --> 1:12:49.200 that will provide a reasonable return to the drug maker 1:12:49.840 --> 1:12:52.960 and ensure that drugs are affordable and accessible for the 1:12:52.960 --> 1:12:55.880 people who need them. We don't have a system like that. 1:12:56.439 --> 1:13:00.599 The drug companies charge as much as they think they 1:13:00.600 --> 1:13:05.639 can get away with. Period. This was shown just last 1:13:05.720 --> 1:13:09.760 year when one of the drug companies named Biogen tried 1:13:09.800 --> 1:13:13.560 to bring a drug to market for Alzheimer's and proposed 1:13:13.560 --> 1:13:16.360 to sell it at fifty six thousand dollars, even though 1:13:16.800 --> 1:13:19.320 there was no proof it worked. And after it got 1:13:19.360 --> 1:13:21.960 big pushback and no one wanted to pay for it, 1:13:22.560 --> 1:13:28.040 the government private employers, uh, they cut the price to 1:13:28.120 --> 1:13:32.599 twenty eight thousand dollars. Now was it worth fifty six thousand. 1:13:32.680 --> 1:13:35.400 If it wasn't, then why didn't you just price it 1:13:35.439 --> 1:13:38.120 at twenty eight thousand to begin with why because they 1:13:38.160 --> 1:13:42.200 thought they could get away with fifty six thousand dollars 1:13:42.360 --> 1:13:45.720 a year for this draw. Now, where insulin is concerned, 1:13:46.439 --> 1:13:51.120 it's very unfortunate. There is an insulin cartel. Three companies 1:13:51.240 --> 1:13:58.080 control of the global insulin market in the world and 1:13:58.439 --> 1:14:03.160 here in the United States as well. And it's some 1:14:03.200 --> 1:14:06.840 people would say, correctly, you know, you have to call 1:14:06.920 --> 1:14:11.280 it correctly an alagopoly. A small number of producers and 1:14:11.360 --> 1:14:17.040 sellers who are controlling the market. Uh. At what happens 1:14:17.080 --> 1:14:23.400 as a result of that problem. Well, insulin costs roughly 1:14:23.479 --> 1:14:27.160 ten dollars of vile to produce. It sells for more 1:14:27.200 --> 1:14:30.599 than three hundred dollars of aisle. It has gone up 1:14:30.600 --> 1:14:35.400 in price more than six in the last twenty years 1:14:35.439 --> 1:14:41.719 because of this cartel that literally controls the insulin supply 1:14:42.640 --> 1:14:46.439 in the world. I'll give you another example. I take 1:14:46.479 --> 1:14:51.479 a drug. It's called for my cancer. It's called palmer List. 1:14:51.600 --> 1:14:55.840 It's an oral drug that I get under Medicare Part D. 1:14:57.479 --> 1:15:01.880 Palmerlus costs less than one dollar capsule to make. It 1:15:02.000 --> 1:15:07.559 sells for almost one thousand dollars per capsule. J Christ, 1:15:08.200 --> 1:15:12.120 you cannot justify. You cannot tell me that there's justification 1:15:12.240 --> 1:15:19.040 for a thousand percent margin. It's just ridiculous. But because 1:15:19.120 --> 1:15:22.920 we do not use our power, our market power to 1:15:23.080 --> 1:15:27.439 negotiate for a better deal, um, they can get away 1:15:27.479 --> 1:15:30.240 with it. And they do. And there there are many 1:15:30.280 --> 1:15:33.360 examples of this. Now all of that is about to 1:15:33.439 --> 1:15:37.719 change with some new legislation that has been enacted into law. 1:15:38.439 --> 1:15:42.040 It's about to start to change. I should be more precise, 1:15:42.880 --> 1:15:47.000 um uh, And we can talk about that. Yeah, let's 1:15:47.000 --> 1:15:50.040 talk about that. One thing I want to get into first, 1:15:50.120 --> 1:15:53.240 I think is this. I think sometimes we have this impression, 1:15:53.280 --> 1:15:57.519 certainly with new and novel compounds, that there's this massive 1:15:57.600 --> 1:16:01.080 lab and it's entirely funded by the money that's made 1:16:01.080 --> 1:16:03.519 from selling other drugs. And in that lab people are 1:16:03.520 --> 1:16:06.040 just all day cooking up curious to the Boula virus 1:16:06.240 --> 1:16:10.439 or these various very deadly conditions. And so I wanted 1:16:10.479 --> 1:16:13.960 to explain. I wanted you to explain who pays for 1:16:14.040 --> 1:16:16.799 the R and D for the most part, and who 1:16:16.840 --> 1:16:19.680 decides what that R and D focuses on, because I 1:16:19.680 --> 1:16:25.120 think those are both very important topics. Yeah. Well, it 1:16:25.240 --> 1:16:28.439 turns out that every single drug approved by the FDA 1:16:28.560 --> 1:16:33.000 from two thousand ten to two thousand nineteen was everyone 1:16:33.720 --> 1:16:37.360 was based on in some part on science paid for 1:16:37.479 --> 1:16:43.960 by taxpayers through the National Institutes of Health, another organization 1:16:44.040 --> 1:16:47.320 and the government called BARTER, and another organization in the 1:16:47.360 --> 1:16:52.160 government called DARPA darpas who invented the internet, for example, 1:16:52.880 --> 1:17:02.360 and GPS. UM. UH. We pay taxpayers billions of dollars 1:17:02.400 --> 1:17:07.680 every year to finance basic scientific research that lays the 1:17:07.720 --> 1:17:12.200 foundation for all these drugs. And when a drug company 1:17:12.520 --> 1:17:19.280 sees the drug that has promised UH, it will try 1:17:19.360 --> 1:17:23.480 and acquire from the NIH or the other government agencies 1:17:23.520 --> 1:17:27.240 that do this work fund this work UH the intellectual 1:17:27.280 --> 1:17:33.799 property UH, and then they'll finish the job of running 1:17:34.240 --> 1:17:39.439 UM late stage clinical trials and going through the process 1:17:39.520 --> 1:17:46.200 of gaining FDA approval. I'm gonna say a couple of 1:17:46.240 --> 1:17:51.439 things here that are critically important to understand. To try 1:17:51.479 --> 1:17:57.760 and illustrate this. The drug industry TIES tries to take 1:17:57.800 --> 1:18:00.559 credit for the m r n A vxans that were 1:18:00.600 --> 1:18:05.520 developed to fight COVID nineteen. And these are the vaccines 1:18:05.600 --> 1:18:09.759 that are marketed by Visor and its partner in Europe, 1:18:09.800 --> 1:18:16.120 by on Tech, and by Moderna here in the United States. UM. 1:18:16.160 --> 1:18:19.640 It turns out that in the eighties and nineties and 1:18:19.760 --> 1:18:25.040 early two thousand's, drug companies weren't investing in vaccines because 1:18:25.160 --> 1:18:28.599 it didn't produce they didn't produce a big return. So 1:18:28.640 --> 1:18:32.800 the federal government invested through NIH, DARPA ambart to all 1:18:32.840 --> 1:18:38.200 of them. Two developed the technology that we now call 1:18:38.840 --> 1:18:42.559 m r n A so that when the virus hit, 1:18:43.360 --> 1:18:47.800 that technology was ready for MODERNA and Visor to run with. 1:18:48.400 --> 1:18:52.720 But they didn't make the big investment. We did, we 1:18:52.880 --> 1:18:59.479 being taxpayers, to get that technology ready to go. And 1:18:59.520 --> 1:19:02.840 in the case of MODERNA, we paid for everything. And 1:19:02.880 --> 1:19:06.280 I'm not exaggerating, they had never produced a drug, so 1:19:06.320 --> 1:19:10.640 we stood up manufacturing capacity for them, We paid for 1:19:10.680 --> 1:19:14.559 their late stage clinical trials, and we signed advanced purchase 1:19:14.600 --> 1:19:19.040 agreements to completely de risk the enterprise. But they will 1:19:19.040 --> 1:19:22.240 tell you that they saved us, It's not true. We 1:19:22.360 --> 1:19:30.679 saved ourselves. There's a reason that the president, who cares 1:19:30.760 --> 1:19:34.599 deeply about trying to reduce the death toll from cancer 1:19:35.520 --> 1:19:41.439 has to have this new organization called h which is 1:19:41.439 --> 1:19:43.840 going to be funded with billions of dollars to try 1:19:43.880 --> 1:19:50.720 and do something to accelerate cancer research. Why do why 1:19:50.720 --> 1:19:52.759 do we have to pay for that because the drug 1:19:52.800 --> 1:19:59.280 companies will not pay for the high risk early stage research. 1:20:00.040 --> 1:20:05.759 It goes into getting really breakthrough new drugs to market. 1:20:06.520 --> 1:20:11.840 So who who does this? Who pays for it? By 1:20:11.840 --> 1:20:17.080 and large, taxpayers are underpinning all the basic science. Drug 1:20:17.120 --> 1:20:22.080 companies are taking drugs that show promise, acquiring the intellectual property, 1:20:22.240 --> 1:20:27.200 and then charging whatever they want for the drugs. Um. 1:20:27.280 --> 1:20:31.280 So that's our system in the United States of America. 1:20:31.400 --> 1:20:35.720 It's completely screwed up. Uh. We need to have a 1:20:35.800 --> 1:20:41.880 process more like what you described imposing this question, which is, well, 1:20:42.280 --> 1:20:45.559 shouldn't we look at what the government invested, what the 1:20:45.600 --> 1:20:51.400 company invested? Uh? You know what would be what does 1:20:51.400 --> 1:20:54.240 it cost to manufactured the drug and distribute the drug 1:20:54.720 --> 1:20:56.839 and all of that, and then arrive at a price 1:20:57.280 --> 1:21:01.840 that provides a fair return for investment in risk to 1:21:01.880 --> 1:21:05.559 the drug company, but not any price they want to dictate. 1:21:06.080 --> 1:21:08.559 That's what we have now is they get the drug 1:21:09.000 --> 1:21:11.760 from us and they get to dictate the price. We 1:21:11.880 --> 1:21:18.480 don't have a system like the one you referenced. Yeah, 1:21:18.600 --> 1:21:21.120 and it's it's much to a detriment, right, And I 1:21:21.240 --> 1:21:23.280 was that it's interesting you talked about how that this 1:21:23.320 --> 1:21:25.960 profit driven model tends to focus on certain conditions and 1:21:26.040 --> 1:21:29.000 not others. And I know that you focus mainly on 1:21:29.040 --> 1:21:31.040 the United States, but perhaps we could get into a 1:21:31.080 --> 1:21:34.360 little bit what that means for neglected diseases on a 1:21:34.400 --> 1:21:38.599 global scale. Right, how looking at only patients who can 1:21:38.640 --> 1:21:42.040 afford to pay these inflated prices means that we're drug 1:21:42.080 --> 1:21:45.719 companies are sort of tacit lee saying, well, we're okay 1:21:45.720 --> 1:21:48.639 with people dying from conditions that people don't get in America. 1:21:49.800 --> 1:21:52.240 Are you comfortable talking about that a little bit? Well, 1:21:52.280 --> 1:21:56.439 we only work in the United States because that is 1:21:56.439 --> 1:22:01.439 a big enough challenge for us. I will say that 1:22:03.160 --> 1:22:06.799 drug companies want to invest only in drugs that produce 1:22:06.960 --> 1:22:12.760 a big return their profit maximizers their corporations, and we 1:22:12.840 --> 1:22:15.599 don't have a way that we balance that out where 1:22:15.640 --> 1:22:20.080 we say yes, but but, but but taxpayers are are 1:22:20.200 --> 1:22:24.720 doing the foundational research that leads to these drugs, and 1:22:24.720 --> 1:22:28.760 and these are in that sense, public goods, and we 1:22:28.800 --> 1:22:30.720 need to figure out how, yeah, you can have a 1:22:30.720 --> 1:22:33.400 fair return, but we also make sure that they're priced 1:22:33.479 --> 1:22:39.200 to maximize affordability and accessibility. And in this plays out 1:22:39.320 --> 1:22:44.200 overseas with neglected tropical diseases, which you reference, which you know, 1:22:44.360 --> 1:22:48.880 drug companies don't want to spend a lot of money 1:22:48.920 --> 1:22:51.439 on because those countries don't have a lot of money 1:22:51.720 --> 1:22:54.639 to pay for them. Because all the companies care about 1:22:54.760 --> 1:22:57.680 is honest to god, you know, they they want us 1:22:57.720 --> 1:23:01.160 to believe that they're all about looking after our well being. 1:23:02.320 --> 1:23:06.640 They are corporations, and corporations by law, have to maximize 1:23:06.640 --> 1:23:11.680 profits for their shareholders shareholders, and that's what they do. Um. 1:23:12.120 --> 1:23:15.920 You know who invests in neglected tropical diseases. The Gates 1:23:15.960 --> 1:23:22.880 Foundation and other foundations that put the money out to 1:23:23.520 --> 1:23:28.240 do that early stage research that changes the pricing equation, 1:23:28.680 --> 1:23:33.479 should should change the pricing equation, um, so that we 1:23:33.600 --> 1:23:39.519 can still develop the drugs that people abroad would benefit 1:23:39.640 --> 1:23:44.920 from tremendously. Uh if if only we made the effort 1:23:44.960 --> 1:23:50.120 and made the investment, which they're not inclined to do. 1:23:50.160 --> 1:23:52.840 You don't answer your question, yes very well, very well. 1:23:52.880 --> 1:23:54.800 I think people are like looking for evidence on this. 1:23:54.840 --> 1:23:56.639 They could look at the speed at which we started 1:23:56.680 --> 1:24:00.639 to develop ebola treatments of vaccines once became a threat 1:24:00.680 --> 1:24:03.639 to US vesse, once he became a threat to people 1:24:03.680 --> 1:24:06.320 in the global periphery. By the way, I will say 1:24:06.320 --> 1:24:09.160 one more thing. Of course, it's not the drug companies 1:24:09.240 --> 1:24:15.080 only hurt people in poorer countries in the world. It 1:24:15.320 --> 1:24:21.679 is that drug companies insist on high prices everywhere. And 1:24:22.560 --> 1:24:28.200 for example, UM, the disease system fibrosis is incurable, and 1:24:28.560 --> 1:24:34.960 UM there are new drugs that help people live longer UH. 1:24:35.080 --> 1:24:41.760 They are marketed by Vertex. Interestingly, the gene that all 1:24:41.800 --> 1:24:47.320 of these UH drugs are built on, the genetic component, 1:24:48.080 --> 1:24:50.640 was identified by the former head of the ni H, 1:24:50.680 --> 1:24:53.880 Francis Collins, when he was doing research paid for by 1:24:53.920 --> 1:24:59.640 the NIH at the University of Michigan. His his discoveries 1:24:59.640 --> 1:25:03.960 were min UH, but still the drug companies wouldn't invest. 1:25:04.479 --> 1:25:09.680 So the Cystic Fibrocess Foundation raised money from its community 1:25:09.720 --> 1:25:13.879 to do more early stage research, and when it showed promise, 1:25:14.920 --> 1:25:20.200 Vertex bought the intellectual property from them UH and UH 1:25:20.640 --> 1:25:24.240 brought these drugs that are built on that genetic discovery 1:25:24.280 --> 1:25:28.479 to market. But in countries that have said we can't 1:25:28.479 --> 1:25:31.920 afford the price you're demanding because we only have so 1:25:32.000 --> 1:25:35.240 much money to pay for our citizens for healthcare. Because 1:25:35.280 --> 1:25:39.840 we provide healthcare to all our citizens, Vertex will let 1:25:39.880 --> 1:25:44.520 people kids because it generally affects kids and younger adults. 1:25:45.000 --> 1:25:48.360 Will let them die if the company, if the countries 1:25:48.400 --> 1:25:52.000 won't agree to the price that they are insisting on, 1:25:52.600 --> 1:25:55.720 literally let them die and say, look, you know, if 1:25:55.720 --> 1:25:57.400 you won't strike a deal that has high and the 1:25:57.479 --> 1:25:59.639 price for us, we're not going to sell the drug 1:25:59.680 --> 1:26:03.519 in your in your country. So it isn't only the 1:26:03.560 --> 1:26:07.880 poor people, uh uh, you know the poorer countries around 1:26:07.920 --> 1:26:12.599 the world. It's patients who are stuck with a drug 1:26:13.280 --> 1:26:16.280 disease that requires a high cost drug and maybe they 1:26:16.320 --> 1:26:20.080 can't get access to it because it's not affordable for 1:26:20.280 --> 1:26:26.639 their country or them. Yeah, it's it's pretty pretty bleak 1:26:26.720 --> 1:26:30.360 stuff in that sense. Let's get onto a little bit then, 1:26:30.479 --> 1:26:33.280 of how we can make this better. And I know 1:26:33.400 --> 1:26:37.280 that there are approaches that are incremental and their approaches 1:26:37.360 --> 1:26:40.759 that are more revolutionary or sort of making these big leaps. 1:26:40.800 --> 1:26:44.600 So let's let's start with talking about how this legislation 1:26:44.640 --> 1:26:46.960 that we've just seen, the Inflation Reduction Act, does that 1:26:47.040 --> 1:26:48.920 make a difference. How much of a difference does it make, 1:26:48.960 --> 1:26:52.839 and how does it make that difference. The Inflation Reduction 1:26:52.880 --> 1:26:55.760 Act is really historic legislation that is going to save 1:26:55.840 --> 1:27:00.200 millions of people in America millions of dollars over time. 1:27:01.560 --> 1:27:06.519 It does for big things. It does manymore, but for 1:27:06.920 --> 1:27:11.760 big things. One, for the first time ever, Medicare is 1:27:11.800 --> 1:27:14.880 going to be able to use it it's purchasing power 1:27:15.600 --> 1:27:18.960 as the largest purchaser of drugs in this country to 1:27:20.000 --> 1:27:25.479 UH negotiate lower prices for people on Medicare. For the 1:27:25.520 --> 1:27:30.640 first time ever, we are going to curb price gouging 1:27:31.840 --> 1:27:37.400 by forcing companies that raise prices faster than the rate 1:27:37.439 --> 1:27:42.160 of inflation to pay a rebate. U two Medicare. We're 1:27:42.160 --> 1:27:47.559 gonna that will curb their their price increases. H Third, 1:27:48.479 --> 1:27:51.840 we are going to limit the amount of out of 1:27:51.880 --> 1:27:56.960 pocket annually a Medicare patient can pay under the Medicare 1:27:57.040 --> 1:28:00.599 Party Prescription Drug Benefit. Right now, there is annual lot 1:28:00.600 --> 1:28:03.240 of pocket limit I pay for that drug I described 1:28:03.280 --> 1:28:06.240 to you before to costs of almost a thousand dollars 1:28:06.240 --> 1:28:10.559 of capsule, I pay out of pocket more than sixteen 1:28:10.600 --> 1:28:15.160 thousand dollars a year. There will be a limit of 1:28:15.280 --> 1:28:18.960 two thousand dollars. No Medicare beneficiary will pay more than 1:28:19.000 --> 1:28:24.200 two thousand dollars out of pocket for Medicare Party drugs. 1:28:24.280 --> 1:28:29.799 And four for the first time. Starting next year, people 1:28:29.840 --> 1:28:33.160 who depend on insulin in Medicare will pay no more 1:28:33.200 --> 1:28:37.320 than thirty five dollars per prescription per month for their 1:28:37.360 --> 1:28:45.360 insulin um. These are all truly significant changes UH and 1:28:45.560 --> 1:28:52.560 begin to shift UH drug policy UH in this country, 1:28:52.880 --> 1:29:02.280 begin to uh break the dictator real pricing ability that 1:29:02.360 --> 1:29:05.960 the drugs drug companies have. And I wanted to take 1:29:05.960 --> 1:29:09.640 a minute to explain why Medicare negotiation in itself is 1:29:09.640 --> 1:29:13.759 such a big breakthrough very quickly, when the Medicare Prescription 1:29:13.840 --> 1:29:16.759 Drug Benefit was enacted into law in two thousand three, 1:29:18.400 --> 1:29:21.679 the drug companies, in the dark of night got stuck 1:29:21.720 --> 1:29:26.560 into that law something called the non interference clause that 1:29:26.760 --> 1:29:30.000 said that the Secretary of Health and Human Services could 1:29:30.040 --> 1:29:34.479 not negotiate directly with drug companies period. It got stuck 1:29:34.520 --> 1:29:36.479 in in the dark of night by a man named 1:29:36.479 --> 1:29:39.400 Billie Tausend, who was then share of the Energy and 1:29:39.439 --> 1:29:43.639 Commerce Committee in the US House of Representatives, And within 1:29:43.760 --> 1:29:47.720 months after doing that at the behest of the big 1:29:47.800 --> 1:29:50.880 drug companies, he went to work to run the big 1:29:50.880 --> 1:29:54.679 trade association for the drug companies it's called Pharma, at 1:29:55.560 --> 1:29:59.240 a salary of two million dollars a year. In other words, 1:29:59.400 --> 1:30:03.520 they bought the prohibition on medicare being able to negotiate, 1:30:03.760 --> 1:30:07.400 and they have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to 1:30:07.960 --> 1:30:13.240 keep that prohibition in place ever since then, just in 1:30:13.280 --> 1:30:18.000 the last two years, in fighting to not let medicare 1:30:18.080 --> 1:30:22.040 negotiate over any drugs ever directly with the drug companies, 1:30:22.080 --> 1:30:25.880 they spent uh north of two hundred million dollars to 1:30:25.960 --> 1:30:31.080 try and stop that legislation from passing. UM. So these 1:30:31.120 --> 1:30:36.719 are all big, significant, important changes, they are not enough. 1:30:37.720 --> 1:30:41.200 Uh if if if we wrote the world, we would 1:30:41.200 --> 1:30:47.840 have written legislation that negotiated over more drugs and the 1:30:47.960 --> 1:30:51.439 pricing for which extended into the private sector and to 1:30:51.560 --> 1:30:57.200 people without insurance. But we had to do that. To 1:30:57.280 --> 1:31:00.439 extend it to the private sector and people without an assurance, 1:31:00.840 --> 1:31:04.080 we needed sixty votes in the Senate because of the 1:31:04.080 --> 1:31:08.599 filibuster rules, and we couldn't get one, not one Republican vote, 1:31:09.439 --> 1:31:12.280 So it had to be passed under a special procedure 1:31:12.320 --> 1:31:16.400 called reconciliation. The Democrats used it. They stood up the 1:31:16.439 --> 1:31:20.120 pharmah and they passed the bill. God bless him. Uh 1:31:21.000 --> 1:31:25.719 We in the course of it had um a vote 1:31:26.280 --> 1:31:30.160 trying to extend the thirty five dollar insulin monthly co 1:31:30.360 --> 1:31:33.200 paid to the private sector. We could only get seven 1:31:33.280 --> 1:31:38.120 Republican votes um and so we couldn't take it all 1:31:38.160 --> 1:31:40.639 the way there. So there's much more work to do. 1:31:40.880 --> 1:31:46.400 But this breakthrough is truly historic. Yeah, it's good. It's 1:31:46.720 --> 1:31:49.120 it's good to see some progress because there hasn't been 1:31:49.120 --> 1:31:52.320 progressed for a very long time. Let's talk about the 1:31:52.360 --> 1:31:54.600 difference in between a cost and a cope, because I 1:31:54.640 --> 1:31:58.200 think it's easy for politicians sometimes that you know, tweet 1:31:58.720 --> 1:32:01.360 insulin will cost you x and in fact it only 1:32:01.400 --> 1:32:06.519 costs you x if y and is that are true? 1:32:07.360 --> 1:32:09.600 So can you explain for folks what a copay is 1:32:09.760 --> 1:32:12.120 and why sometimes these claims are made about co patients 1:32:12.120 --> 1:32:15.240 those are not the same as costs. Well, the big 1:32:15.280 --> 1:32:21.400 difference is the word price versus cost. In our system, 1:32:21.439 --> 1:32:25.439 we in order to lower out of pocket costs for people, 1:32:26.000 --> 1:32:31.360 we have to lower price. Why if you we're paying 1:32:31.400 --> 1:32:34.960 a hundred dollars out of pocket for your medicine and 1:32:35.120 --> 1:32:40.000 we zero that out said nothing, But we don't lower 1:32:40.080 --> 1:32:43.640 the price. The overall price that hundred dollars has to 1:32:43.680 --> 1:32:46.720 be paid for it by someone And what happens is 1:32:47.400 --> 1:32:54.200 patients wind up paying higher premiums or higher taxes, or 1:32:54.439 --> 1:32:57.559 getting less money in their paychecks. You know, half of 1:32:57.640 --> 1:33:00.879 more than half of all Americans get their drug coverage 1:33:01.040 --> 1:33:04.759 and healthcare through their employers. So if that hundred dollars 1:33:04.760 --> 1:33:09.800 still has to be paid by somebody, then we wind 1:33:09.880 --> 1:33:13.439 up paying for it, either with higher premiums, higher taxes, 1:33:13.960 --> 1:33:17.240 or getting less money in our paycheck because someone needs 1:33:17.280 --> 1:33:21.040 to absorb that hundred bucks. This is very important for 1:33:21.080 --> 1:33:25.200 people to understand. There's no free lunch unless we lower prices. 1:33:25.960 --> 1:33:29.839 That's why pharma will always say, the big drug companies 1:33:29.880 --> 1:33:32.200 will always say, well, what we need to do is 1:33:32.479 --> 1:33:34.599 we just need to lower everybody's out of pocket, make 1:33:34.640 --> 1:33:36.760 it zero and let them have all the drugs they want, 1:33:37.360 --> 1:33:40.479 and let us continue to charge any price we want. 1:33:41.000 --> 1:33:44.320 But that's not there's there's no free lunch. It would 1:33:44.360 --> 1:33:48.920 still have to be paid and um, so we fight 1:33:49.160 --> 1:33:53.120 very hard at pages for affordable drugs to help patients 1:33:53.240 --> 1:33:58.360 and policymakers understand that we need to do both. We 1:33:58.439 --> 1:34:01.280 need to lower out of pocket costs for people and 1:34:01.560 --> 1:34:03.680 we need to lower the price in order to do 1:34:03.760 --> 1:34:07.080 that co payments. Co payments are what you pay when 1:34:07.160 --> 1:34:12.400 you go to UM the pharmacy counter and they tell 1:34:12.439 --> 1:34:17.799 you that your share of this prescription is five dollars 1:34:17.880 --> 1:34:22.440 or ten dollars or twenty dollars. And lots of times 1:34:23.160 --> 1:34:27.800 employers and the insurance companies they hire to run their 1:34:27.920 --> 1:34:31.680 programs will use co payments to try and steer you 1:34:31.760 --> 1:34:36.400 to a less expensive drug at generic. Right, So if 1:34:36.400 --> 1:34:38.880 you want a brand, you're gonna have to pay fifty bucks, 1:34:38.920 --> 1:34:41.719 but if you'll take the generic, you pay five bucks. 1:34:42.000 --> 1:34:46.679 For example, they're trying to steer YouTube and equally effective drug. 1:34:46.720 --> 1:34:50.840 Generics are by definition the same exact drug, and they 1:34:50.880 --> 1:34:53.160 are trying to steer you to the less expensive but 1:34:53.240 --> 1:34:57.759 equally effective drug. The problem with our country big time 1:34:58.280 --> 1:35:00.879 is that sometimes they are not you for that purpose. 1:35:02.320 --> 1:35:06.240 In my case, I have co payments on all my drugs, right, 1:35:06.880 --> 1:35:08.960 but I don't have a choice. I don't have a 1:35:09.040 --> 1:35:12.080 cheaper chain there. I gotta I gotta take the drugs 1:35:12.120 --> 1:35:17.439 they're telling me to take UM. And so when we 1:35:17.640 --> 1:35:22.479 misuse co payments like that, we are hurting patients. Uh. 1:35:22.520 --> 1:35:25.880 And it's how we also need to change. It points 1:35:25.920 --> 1:35:29.639 to how we also need to change our benefit design 1:35:29.720 --> 1:35:33.960 in this country. If if we can steer a patient 1:35:34.040 --> 1:35:38.479 to a healthier or as healthy least less expensive option. 1:35:39.120 --> 1:35:42.160 That makes sense. But if you're charging me for something 1:35:42.200 --> 1:35:45.360 that I can't do anything about, that makes no sense 1:35:45.400 --> 1:35:49.760 at all. Uh. And so these are changes that we 1:35:49.840 --> 1:35:52.320 at P four a D work on, it will continue 1:35:52.360 --> 1:35:55.960 to work on in our benefit design in this country. Yeah, 1:35:56.200 --> 1:35:57.920 I can see that trying to give you a price 1:35:57.920 --> 1:35:59.760 incentive to what not buy you a drug and you 1:36:00.120 --> 1:36:02.519 so or be poor or or be sick because you 1:36:02.520 --> 1:36:05.960 can't afford it, which is not the function of the incentive, 1:36:05.960 --> 1:36:09.439 and it's silly. Can you explain how why does some 1:36:09.520 --> 1:36:13.960 drugs have generic since some don't? So, boy, you're asking 1:36:14.000 --> 1:36:17.439 some really good questions. Um, you're going right to the 1:36:17.479 --> 1:36:24.040 heart of our system. A long time ago, in the eighties, 1:36:24.400 --> 1:36:28.240 eight three or eighty four, a bill was passed called 1:36:28.280 --> 1:36:32.799 the Hatch Waxman Bill, and since then everyone Affer refers 1:36:32.840 --> 1:36:37.479 to a concept called the Hatch Waxman barbain. And the 1:36:37.520 --> 1:36:40.559 bargain is this, if you're a drug company and you 1:36:40.600 --> 1:36:43.840 bring a valuable new drug to market, you get a 1:36:43.880 --> 1:36:47.960 period of exclusivity along with your you have a patent 1:36:48.120 --> 1:36:52.200 already probably but upon approval we give you a period 1:36:52.200 --> 1:36:55.400 of exclusivity where for sure, no matter if your patent 1:36:55.960 --> 1:36:59.080 is old and only has a year left, we give 1:36:59.160 --> 1:37:02.960 you additional years of exclusivity where you have a monopoly 1:37:03.040 --> 1:37:05.960 on that drug. But at the end of that period 1:37:05.960 --> 1:37:12.439 of exclusivity, generics and biosimilars. Biosimilars are the generic name 1:37:12.680 --> 1:37:16.840 or the name for generics. For biologic drugs, they're more 1:37:16.880 --> 1:37:22.360 complicated drugs. But at the end of that period of exclusivity, 1:37:22.560 --> 1:37:27.960 a generic I'm not a generic. Generics and biosimilars come 1:37:28.040 --> 1:37:33.080 to market, and we use the competition from the generics 1:37:33.080 --> 1:37:38.040 and biosimilars to drive down the price. When you have 1:37:39.080 --> 1:37:42.880 one generic that comes to compete, the price goes down 1:37:42.920 --> 1:37:49.040 about fifteen or two generics, the price goes down three generics. 1:37:49.360 --> 1:37:53.280 You know, by the time you get five generics in 1:37:53.320 --> 1:37:58.320 the market, the price is roughly five to of the 1:37:58.320 --> 1:38:02.479 original brand name price. So the hatchwax On Argin was 1:38:03.040 --> 1:38:05.679 you got a good drug, you bring it to market. 1:38:05.720 --> 1:38:09.639 We give you a time where you you can charge 1:38:09.680 --> 1:38:12.280 whatever you want. You have exclusivity in the market, but 1:38:12.439 --> 1:38:16.240 at the end of that we have competition from generics 1:38:16.240 --> 1:38:21.240 and biosimilars to lower price. Why aren't there generics and biosimilars, 1:38:21.320 --> 1:38:24.719 That was your question for all drugs, while some drugs 1:38:24.720 --> 1:38:28.280 are still in their period of exclusivity. But the drug 1:38:28.320 --> 1:38:32.360 companies don't let competition come to market. The brand drug 1:38:32.400 --> 1:38:40.840 companies they fight, They file additional patents. They they sign 1:38:40.960 --> 1:38:44.639 deals with generic companies not to bring a drug to market, 1:38:44.680 --> 1:38:50.360 a competitive to market, and pay them not to um uh. 1:38:50.600 --> 1:38:54.719 They make small changes in the drug and then file 1:38:54.840 --> 1:39:01.400 additional patents. There is something called a patent thicket. Um Humorra, 1:39:01.720 --> 1:39:03.760 the best selling drug in the world, has like a 1:39:03.800 --> 1:39:07.200 hundred and thirty two patents, a hundred and thirty two 1:39:08.680 --> 1:39:11.439 which were filed after the drug came to market. What 1:39:11.520 --> 1:39:15.320 are they for, Well, they could be for the packaging, 1:39:16.160 --> 1:39:23.080 the instructions, the color of the capsule. They patent everything, 1:39:23.560 --> 1:39:27.240 and why because Generica buys some other competitor has to 1:39:27.280 --> 1:39:31.280 fight its way through all of them to bring a 1:39:31.360 --> 1:39:34.640 drug to market. So we call them patent thickets. You know, 1:39:34.760 --> 1:39:39.479 if you grew up anywhere near you know a place 1:39:39.560 --> 1:39:42.000 where there were thickets, you know, it's very hard to 1:39:42.000 --> 1:39:47.799 get through a thicket. Um. And so in some cases 1:39:47.880 --> 1:39:51.440 there is no competitor because they're in the period of exclusivity, 1:39:51.680 --> 1:39:55.560 but in far too many cases there are no competitors 1:39:55.760 --> 1:39:58.720 to drive down the price because the drug companies are 1:39:58.720 --> 1:40:05.400 manipulating our system. And they're very good at manipulating our system. Yeah. Yes, 1:40:05.439 --> 1:40:08.479 they are exceptionally good, and that has terrible results. Okay, 1:40:08.520 --> 1:40:11.799 So we've spoken about that, the way that they've manipulated 1:40:11.840 --> 1:40:14.840 this system, the way that maybe that's beginning to change. 1:40:15.160 --> 1:40:17.240 One thing that I'm interested in I've written about it 1:40:17.240 --> 1:40:20.320 a little bit is these ways that are perhaps more revolutionary, 1:40:20.680 --> 1:40:25.120 if not always as like a cast iron safe. And 1:40:25.200 --> 1:40:29.160 one of those is obviously people making their own medicines, 1:40:29.320 --> 1:40:33.600 which is something that will see unfortunately increasingly in this 1:40:33.760 --> 1:40:37.960 country because of bands on access to reproductive healthcare. And 1:40:38.040 --> 1:40:41.200 I wonder how you think that has the potential to 1:40:41.280 --> 1:40:45.040 change this that we've seen, like the epic pencil, we've 1:40:45.080 --> 1:40:48.360 seen these homebrew abortion drugs, things like that. Do you 1:40:48.360 --> 1:40:52.400 think that has the capacity to change access? I remember 1:40:52.439 --> 1:40:57.600 I'm a patient, mm hmm, and um it scares the 1:40:57.600 --> 1:41:01.519 hell out of me. Yeah. The reason is there was 1:41:01.560 --> 1:41:04.280 a time in the United States and in most of 1:41:04.320 --> 1:41:09.200 the world when drug companies were not regulated. Uh, and 1:41:09.479 --> 1:41:16.599 they brought patent medicines. Uh and uh, you know, mix 1:41:16.680 --> 1:41:20.720 it at home, bruise and sold them. And we had 1:41:20.760 --> 1:41:23.960 no way to make sure that those didn't hurt people. 1:41:24.000 --> 1:41:29.560 They killed people in some cases. Uh and then uh. 1:41:29.600 --> 1:41:37.880 In the twentieth century, the government realized and our Congress 1:41:37.920 --> 1:41:41.640 and our elected officials realized, we needed a way to 1:41:41.680 --> 1:41:46.559 regulate this industry, which would you know, sell poison in 1:41:46.680 --> 1:41:50.760 some cases, and they created what is now called the 1:41:50.760 --> 1:41:55.400 Food and Drug Administration. Food and Drug Administration is charged 1:41:55.479 --> 1:42:00.880 with making sure drugs are safe and effective. I'm a patient. 1:42:01.240 --> 1:42:03.920 I want the Food and Drug Administration to do its job. 1:42:04.520 --> 1:42:09.599 I want drugs that are safe and effective. I do 1:42:09.720 --> 1:42:17.480 not like drugs that are not subjected to some scrutiny 1:42:18.280 --> 1:42:22.320 um to make sure that they do what those who 1:42:22.320 --> 1:42:27.920 are selling them claim they do. So remember, I'm not 1:42:28.040 --> 1:42:32.920 big on taking chances with my life. Uh. And I 1:42:32.920 --> 1:42:36.880 if the drugs don't work, I'll die. That's that simple. 1:42:37.680 --> 1:42:40.559 I'll die of cancer. Not not to mention, I could 1:42:40.640 --> 1:42:43.760 drive to die from a drug that's no good. Some 1:42:43.840 --> 1:42:47.240 drugs cause harm, you know, even drugs approved by the 1:42:47.280 --> 1:42:53.120 FDA cause harms sometimes. So I am I am. I 1:42:53.160 --> 1:42:56.519 am not a fan of homebrew drugs. I'm a fan 1:42:56.600 --> 1:43:00.439 of a system that protects me and ensures the drugs 1:43:00.439 --> 1:43:05.160 are safe and effective. But that's one man's perspective. Yeah, 1:43:05.280 --> 1:43:07.400 And I think it's reasonable to say that, like, we 1:43:07.479 --> 1:43:10.360 have a way to make drugs that are safe and effective, 1:43:10.400 --> 1:43:13.639 and it's the lord legislation or a system that's getting 1:43:13.640 --> 1:43:16.439 in between people and the life saving medicines that they need, 1:43:16.439 --> 1:43:21.479 and we should certainly struggle to fix that instead of 1:43:22.000 --> 1:43:24.160 looking for ways around it, even though I understand why, 1:43:24.320 --> 1:43:27.800 especially with things like reproductive healthcare, that doesn't seem like 1:43:27.840 --> 1:43:32.800 it's getting fixed anytime soon. Sadly, No, it's it's terribly sad. 1:43:33.360 --> 1:43:37.120 It's heartbreaking. Yeah, this whole thing is extremely and I 1:43:37.160 --> 1:43:41.880 know you've obviously seen it too, but my previous life, 1:43:41.920 --> 1:43:44.160 I've worked with one of someone who works for you 1:43:44.200 --> 1:43:48.840 now in diabetes nonprofit and seen firsthand the consequences of this, 1:43:48.920 --> 1:43:51.920 and it's really heartbreaking stuff to look at, and I 1:43:51.960 --> 1:43:55.000 wish it just seems so unnecessary in the world where 1:43:55.080 --> 1:43:59.200 like these pharmaceutical companies make we should say, like billions 1:43:59.280 --> 1:44:01.599 of dollars. Right, It's it's not as if these people 1:44:01.600 --> 1:44:03.760 are you driving to work in the second hand toyo 1:44:03.800 --> 1:44:07.080 to Corolla like they they are doing very well for 1:44:07.160 --> 1:44:13.200 themselves of this system, right yep. People will be familiar 1:44:13.240 --> 1:44:19.760 with like farmer Bro, Martin Screlly, the guy. Yeah. Yeah, 1:44:19.880 --> 1:44:23.919 but it's just one example of a very problematic industry. 1:44:23.960 --> 1:44:26.240 I think you've done an excellent job of explaining it. David, 1:44:26.360 --> 1:44:28.240 Is there anything else you'd like to get to before 1:44:28.240 --> 1:44:32.479 we finish up here? Just Martin, screw you. You call 1:44:32.600 --> 1:44:34.880 to mind. I won't take you back to MODERNA and 1:44:34.920 --> 1:44:38.240 the m RNA vaccine. The fact that we not only 1:44:39.040 --> 1:44:42.000 developed the m r A technology to taxpayer money, but 1:44:42.120 --> 1:44:47.439 we brought the MODERNA vaccine to two people with taxpayer money, 1:44:47.800 --> 1:44:51.200 and in the course of doing that, we minted three 1:44:51.280 --> 1:44:56.280 new MODERNA billionaires. Um, you're talking about I'm not driving 1:44:56.280 --> 1:45:00.800 to work and uh, you know secondhand Toyota gorillas. Oh 1:45:00.960 --> 1:45:05.160 far from it. Yeah, these are the people whose yachts 1:45:05.160 --> 1:45:07.439 I've seen in the bay. I think that's disgusting. Three 1:45:07.479 --> 1:45:12.599 new millionaires off the back of billionaires billionaires? God? Yeah, God, 1:45:12.760 --> 1:45:15.559 it's gross, isn't it. Yeah. It can't be said enough. 1:45:15.760 --> 1:45:18.360 Not only does the NAH fund their research, but often 1:45:18.400 --> 1:45:20.519 the taxpayers will fund the lab right. If it's at 1:45:20.520 --> 1:45:24.840 a university, you pay for it twice before before you 1:45:24.880 --> 1:45:27.280 try and pay for it again at sex. Yeah, it's 1:45:27.280 --> 1:45:31.320 a very broken system, David. How can people find p 1:45:31.479 --> 1:45:33.280 F A D. How can people find you? Is our 1:45:33.400 --> 1:45:38.160 website on Twitter? Facebook? Where should they go? Go to 1:45:38.200 --> 1:45:43.880 our website Patients for Affordable Drugs dot org. Just like 1:45:43.960 --> 1:45:47.400 it sounds, you can leave your story if if you 1:45:47.560 --> 1:45:51.160 or someone you love care about has struggled with high 1:45:51.200 --> 1:45:55.200 drug prices, give us your email address. We don't ask 1:45:55.280 --> 1:46:00.320 patients for money, but the stories and email addresses are 1:46:00.439 --> 1:46:06.280 our power. Uh, They're the they're the currency we trade 1:46:06.280 --> 1:46:10.880 on to make sure that the voices of people in 1:46:10.920 --> 1:46:16.120 this country are heard, uh, to counter the propaganda ana 1:46:16.120 --> 1:46:21.519 lies that are put out by the drug companies. Okay, yeah, 1:46:21.520 --> 1:46:23.880 that's that's very important stuff that people can hopefully do. 1:46:24.000 --> 1:46:26.719 Even if they are struggling sort of materially to afford 1:46:26.720 --> 1:46:29.080 their drugs, maybe they have some time. So that's great. 1:46:29.160 --> 1:46:31.400 It's four f O R right, not the number four. 1:46:32.040 --> 1:46:34.519 That's correct. All right, great, Thank you so much, David. 1:46:34.560 --> 1:46:36.960 It's been a pleasure. You've done excellent job of explaining 1:46:36.960 --> 1:46:40.599 a very convoluted and broken system. Thank you, James, your 1:46:40.920 --> 1:46:44.639 your patient man. I try to be sometimes I'm very 1:46:44.720 --> 1:46:47.280 much not that, but yeah, I do appreciate your time 1:46:47.320 --> 1:46:50.280 on this Monday morning. Thank you very much, David, thank you. 1:47:04.880 --> 1:47:07.759 Welcome to it could happen here a podcast about things 1:47:07.880 --> 1:47:11.400 falling apart. I am Robert Evans, and today we're going 1:47:11.479 --> 1:47:15.160 to talk about a specific part of Eurasia where I 1:47:15.160 --> 1:47:17.120 don't know, things are kind of on the edge of 1:47:17.120 --> 1:47:19.840 of of falling apart and maybe becoming something else. As 1:47:19.880 --> 1:47:24.360 I'm sure most people are aware, Russia expanded its invasion 1:47:24.360 --> 1:47:27.760 of Ukraine earlier this year. UM. It has not gone well, 1:47:27.880 --> 1:47:31.320 and the government has recently announced that they are doing 1:47:31.320 --> 1:47:35.200 a general mobilization and bringing in another three thousand soldiers 1:47:35.200 --> 1:47:39.200 into their armed forces. UH. The significant chunk, if not 1:47:39.360 --> 1:47:42.320 the bulk, of these recruitments are coming from areas away 1:47:42.360 --> 1:47:46.120 from the on the periphery of Russian power, you might say, UM, 1:47:46.240 --> 1:47:50.280 particularly different chunks of the Russian state, UM, where there 1:47:50.320 --> 1:47:55.040 are minority populations who have been UH dissident to the 1:47:55.120 --> 1:47:58.599 to the Federation of Russia in the past. UM. Probably 1:47:58.640 --> 1:48:02.400 the most active of the is a place called Dagistan UM. 1:48:02.439 --> 1:48:05.280 Most Americans probably are not super well versed on this area. 1:48:05.360 --> 1:48:08.519 It is the furthest southern point in the Russian state. 1:48:08.880 --> 1:48:13.320 It borders Azerbaijan. UM, it's pretty close to Turkey and UH. 1:48:13.360 --> 1:48:16.640 This is a region that has a massive Muslim population 1:48:16.800 --> 1:48:19.080 and has been the side a whole lot of resistance 1:48:19.080 --> 1:48:21.960 to the Russian state in the recent past. And today 1:48:22.000 --> 1:48:24.000 we're going to be talking about what that looks like 1:48:24.080 --> 1:48:28.120 now as the government is attempting to draft men from 1:48:28.120 --> 1:48:34.360 this part of the state and as sort of resistance 1:48:34.400 --> 1:48:37.720 has risen up significantly within dagistan UM. I'm going to 1:48:37.800 --> 1:48:42.120 be talking with Karina Avadisian. Karina is a PhD studying 1:48:42.240 --> 1:48:46.640 social movements in particularly in Russia. UM. Karina, welcome to 1:48:46.640 --> 1:48:50.840 the show. Thanks for helping me. UM. So, first off, 1:48:50.880 --> 1:48:54.120 I'm not an expert on on Dagistan UM. What do 1:48:54.160 --> 1:48:57.720 you think is important for people to know about the 1:48:57.800 --> 1:49:03.960 relationship between this region and the Russian state. UM, it's 1:49:04.000 --> 1:49:09.439 the biggest republic in the North Caucasus, UM, and it 1:49:09.520 --> 1:49:14.080 has actually independent media still depe despite the really intense 1:49:14.120 --> 1:49:18.640 repression UM and the dozens of disappeared or murdered journalists 1:49:18.640 --> 1:49:24.000 from from the republic. UM kinship ties are strong in Dugistan. 1:49:24.160 --> 1:49:27.320 So the announcement of mobilization and the kind of you know, 1:49:27.400 --> 1:49:31.880 the sort of the mobilization process um, really affects people 1:49:31.880 --> 1:49:34.599 because extended families are closed, So when someone has taken 1:49:34.640 --> 1:49:37.479 away to affects a lot of people. UM. So that 1:49:37.760 --> 1:49:41.240 UM in large part kind of explains the level of mobilization. 1:49:42.000 --> 1:49:44.680 The other thing I want to mention is that the 1:49:44.720 --> 1:49:49.520 North Caucasus region in general, but especially Dugistan and Chechnia 1:49:50.200 --> 1:49:54.679 UM just kind of don't see themselves as part of Russia. UM. 1:49:54.760 --> 1:49:58.439 To be honest, Russians don't really care about what happens 1:49:58.479 --> 1:50:00.920 there either. I mean, you know, it's as if it's 1:50:00.960 --> 1:50:05.200 another country and there's this huge disconnect um. So there 1:50:05.240 --> 1:50:09.360 doesn't really exist this kind of civic Russian identity UM. 1:50:09.360 --> 1:50:11.720 And the concept of Russia as a country is to 1:50:11.800 --> 1:50:17.519 a large extent held together by sheer oppression and propagania. UM. Yeah. 1:50:17.560 --> 1:50:19.479 That's kind of kind of why I try to focus 1:50:19.520 --> 1:50:21.639 on like this is a part of the Russian state 1:50:21.760 --> 1:50:24.400 rather than like these areas are Russian, because that's certainly 1:50:24.520 --> 1:50:26.120 not the way it feels on the ground or the 1:50:26.160 --> 1:50:31.599 people feel about themselves. Yeah, exactly, UM. And you can 1:50:31.680 --> 1:50:35.000 kind of see differences in the way police respond to 1:50:35.080 --> 1:50:40.840 these protests in Russian regions versus places like Dagistan Um. 1:50:41.000 --> 1:50:43.600 In Russian regions and by Russian region, I mean, you know, 1:50:43.640 --> 1:50:47.600 places where you know, Russia, ethnic Russians are a majority. Um, 1:50:47.720 --> 1:50:50.439 you have people or you have police kind of arresting 1:50:50.560 --> 1:50:56.800 or detaining interresting protesters, whereas in Dakistan Um you know, 1:50:57.760 --> 1:51:01.360 the tactics of the arrest sing people. You know, her 1:51:01.439 --> 1:51:04.240 being kind of carted off is really significant because of 1:51:04.280 --> 1:51:08.920 the history of violence in the republic UM, so abductions, UM, 1:51:09.320 --> 1:51:12.840 disappearances and murder is very common. UM. And this is 1:51:12.880 --> 1:51:17.760 something that I've heard Dakistani protest participants kind of expressed 1:51:17.920 --> 1:51:20.880 fear about, Like you know, people know that that might happen. 1:51:21.000 --> 1:51:24.720 You might get identified among the protesters, and you might 1:51:24.720 --> 1:51:26.720 not get detained interested like you would you know in 1:51:26.760 --> 1:51:29.520 Moscow for example, but you might get you know, identified 1:51:29.560 --> 1:51:33.519 and then kind of targeted later, which is yeah, I mean, 1:51:33.640 --> 1:51:36.880 obviously very frightening. UM. One of the things that I 1:51:36.920 --> 1:51:41.559 had read kind of about part some of the origins 1:51:41.600 --> 1:51:43.320 of the conflict in the region right now is that 1:51:44.040 --> 1:51:46.720 it had been common for some time because the the 1:51:46.760 --> 1:51:50.080 economy in Dagistan. Dakistan is in the Caucusus, which is 1:51:50.160 --> 1:51:52.800 a mountainous region in southern Russia, and it's where a 1:51:52.840 --> 1:51:56.200 great deal of the country's fuel comes from. Um. There 1:51:56.200 --> 1:52:00.000 are kind of folks who will say that the government 1:52:00.040 --> 1:52:04.519 of the Federation has like avoided utilizing that infrastructure to 1:52:04.520 --> 1:52:06.920 the most that it can to avoid providing jobs, and 1:52:06.960 --> 1:52:10.080 it's made a lot of young men join the military 1:52:10.120 --> 1:52:12.400 to become contract soldiers. In the past, that was a 1:52:12.439 --> 1:52:14.880 good way to provide for if you had a large family, 1:52:15.200 --> 1:52:17.519 you do a military contract, you're not going to get 1:52:17.520 --> 1:52:20.599 sent outside of the region. It's pretty safe. But then 1:52:20.640 --> 1:52:23.400 of course Putin invades Ukraine and suddenly a lot of 1:52:23.400 --> 1:52:26.000 these people who had been doing this not because they 1:52:26.280 --> 1:52:29.000 wanted to support the Russian Federation because it was a job, 1:52:29.040 --> 1:52:31.920 are suddenly being sent to go fight and die in 1:52:32.479 --> 1:52:36.720 outside of kharkivor wherever. Yeah. The other thing is that's 1:52:36.720 --> 1:52:39.200 why there's so many security personnel kind of internally in 1:52:39.240 --> 1:52:42.760 the republic as well. So the Republic experiences high unemployment. UM. 1:52:42.840 --> 1:52:46.840 That's mentioned poverty, UM. And it's almost my design rights. 1:52:47.040 --> 1:52:49.240 So many people just relying on this state for jobs 1:52:49.360 --> 1:52:53.280 and security UM services. It's one of the main UM 1:52:53.640 --> 1:52:56.080 sources of employment. But that also kind of has that 1:52:56.280 --> 1:52:59.080 double effect of UM, you know, being used as a 1:52:59.080 --> 1:53:01.479 tool for repression. So anytime kind of descent comes up, 1:53:01.520 --> 1:53:05.120 even you know, when a large part of the grievances 1:53:05.160 --> 1:53:07.360 are about poverty and unemployment and just kind of having 1:53:07.360 --> 1:53:12.720 a future, you have UM a kind of excess of 1:53:12.720 --> 1:53:16.120 people who are ready to kind of suppress UM any 1:53:16.120 --> 1:53:19.920 expression of kind of descent that might lead to problems later. 1:53:20.520 --> 1:53:23.000 And it seems like a great deal of discent right 1:53:23.040 --> 1:53:27.000 now is coming from UM, the Muslim pop in, particularly 1:53:27.000 --> 1:53:30.600 like the Muslim religious community within Dagastan. The reason that 1:53:30.640 --> 1:53:32.080 you and I are talking right now is you you 1:53:32.880 --> 1:53:36.120 shared and commented on a post um that someone was 1:53:36.160 --> 1:53:40.520 sharing a piece of protest art um that was referencing 1:53:40.560 --> 1:53:44.960 a recent comment by the Deputy Mufti of Dagastan UM 1:53:45.040 --> 1:53:48.760 and it's a stylized drawing of several mountains on a 1:53:48.800 --> 1:53:51.879 green background that says the invader doesn't become a martyr. 1:53:52.360 --> 1:53:55.040 And if I'm interpreting that correctly, what what that's saying 1:53:55.240 --> 1:53:57.320 is it's it's a statement of protests from within the 1:53:57.400 --> 1:54:00.479 Islamic community of Dagastan saying, if you go to someone 1:54:00.479 --> 1:54:04.000 else's homeland to take part in an invasion and you die, 1:54:04.360 --> 1:54:06.800 you're not being martyred, You're not dying in a way 1:54:06.840 --> 1:54:10.880 that is that is, you know, uh, respected by a 1:54:10.960 --> 1:54:15.840 law essentially. Is that am I? Am I interpreting that correctly? Yeah? Absolutely, Yeah, 1:54:15.920 --> 1:54:18.800 that's exactly what it's saying. I found that remarkable, UM 1:54:18.840 --> 1:54:21.160 for a couple of reasons. UM. The first is that 1:54:22.080 --> 1:54:24.760 descend in the region originally, so you know, after the 1:54:24.760 --> 1:54:26.800 collapse of the Soviet Union and then the First Church 1:54:26.880 --> 1:54:29.559 in War, there was descent, but it was mostly limited 1:54:29.600 --> 1:54:33.879 to ethno nationalist movements who were very narrow in their messaging. 1:54:34.040 --> 1:54:37.400 So their grievances were, you know, just about their one 1:54:37.440 --> 1:54:40.160 ethnic group and you know, whatever repression that they experienced. 1:54:40.160 --> 1:54:43.600 So UM, they kind of missed out on broader support 1:54:44.200 --> 1:54:50.240 and political Islam became a channel for UM kind of 1:54:50.240 --> 1:54:56.800 representing oppositional identity. UM. And because of that cutting across 1:54:56.800 --> 1:55:00.240 the ethnic lines through selfism, which is U kind of 1:55:00.280 --> 1:55:05.400 a stricter interpretation of Islam, which is prone to radicalization. UM, 1:55:05.440 --> 1:55:09.800 that had much broader support and posed a significant threat 1:55:09.840 --> 1:55:11.680 to Moscow, And I want to kind of make a 1:55:11.680 --> 1:55:16.760 parallel here because UM, mosques and religious communities across the 1:55:16.760 --> 1:55:22.920 world are actually really um interesting spaces for social movement mobilization. UM. 1:55:23.000 --> 1:55:26.240 Some of the earliest works on social movement mobilization talked 1:55:26.280 --> 1:55:30.720 about black churches in the US as being you know, 1:55:31.120 --> 1:55:33.320 key to the civil rights movement because you know, these 1:55:33.360 --> 1:55:35.920 spaces that are kind of away from the state, away 1:55:35.960 --> 1:55:39.840 from surveillance. Although in Legistan and lots of parts of 1:55:39.960 --> 1:55:44.120 Russian Muslim spaces are are up totally unfiltrated by the 1:55:44.120 --> 1:55:46.880 state or they're actually you know, state most these or 1:55:47.440 --> 1:55:50.200 the state's eyes and ears are kind of there. But 1:55:50.400 --> 1:55:53.560 still there's these spaces, and I think that's a big, 1:55:53.680 --> 1:55:57.280 kind of, um significant key factor in how this movement 1:55:57.280 --> 1:56:01.600 has been able to mobilize and interested in Because obviously 1:56:02.040 --> 1:56:04.240 Chechnia is another part of Russia that has a large 1:56:04.280 --> 1:56:08.120 Muslim population. There was a horrible war, they're not all 1:56:08.160 --> 1:56:10.960 that long ago. That is really a prelude in a 1:56:10.960 --> 1:56:12.720 lot of waste to the kinds of violence and the 1:56:12.800 --> 1:56:15.120 kinds of oppressive tactics that are being used right now 1:56:15.200 --> 1:56:19.840 by the Russian state. UM, what what sort of separates, 1:56:20.280 --> 1:56:22.960 like why didn't Dagastan kind of go the same way 1:56:23.000 --> 1:56:26.960 as czech Nia, Like how I'm kind of interested in 1:56:26.960 --> 1:56:31.280 in and that because it seems as if the Muftis 1:56:31.280 --> 1:56:34.080 there are much more willing to kind of act in 1:56:34.120 --> 1:56:36.600 resistance to the States. Still, is it just a factor 1:56:36.640 --> 1:56:38.920 of the violence that was unleached on Chechnya earlier? Is 1:56:38.920 --> 1:56:42.480 there more to it? Um? I think in large part 1:56:42.600 --> 1:56:45.160 it's yeah. I mean, it's the legacy of violence and 1:56:45.240 --> 1:56:48.400 war um in Chechnia. But I think it's partly because 1:56:48.520 --> 1:56:52.160 of how this kind of historical view of touching as 1:56:52.200 --> 1:56:54.840 being um, you know, a threat a problem for the 1:56:54.880 --> 1:56:57.480 Russian Empire previously, and then so the Union and then 1:56:57.800 --> 1:57:02.360 you know independent Russia, you know, um, And it's really 1:57:02.400 --> 1:57:06.680 the rule of Ramsanka ditto, which plays a really suppressing 1:57:07.320 --> 1:57:13.280 role in the republic and his security services Chechnia has 1:57:13.360 --> 1:57:17.560 experienced post war. I would argue it's it's calmer and 1:57:17.680 --> 1:57:19.720 in a in a strange way. I mean, I was 1:57:20.080 --> 1:57:21.920 when I was doing my field work in the North Cooxus, 1:57:22.000 --> 1:57:25.280 I visited Czechnia. I was in Cambodno Bolkaria, which is 1:57:25.320 --> 1:57:28.280 you know a couple of republics over Um it didn't 1:57:28.280 --> 1:57:31.000 experience war, but I remember at the time there were 1:57:31.040 --> 1:57:35.560 counter terrorists operations in Carbdna Bulkaria, where the security services 1:57:35.600 --> 1:57:37.960 would kind of lock down whole neighborhoods and kind of 1:57:37.960 --> 1:57:40.520 storm impartment buildings to go after someone who had been 1:57:40.600 --> 1:57:42.960 you know, identified as a problem and just kind of 1:57:43.000 --> 1:57:45.680 you know, neutralize that person. They were rarely detained, they 1:57:45.680 --> 1:57:48.920 would just kind of kill, no questions us. Then going 1:57:48.960 --> 1:57:52.920 to Chechnia from that kind of context, that stuff doesn't happen, 1:57:53.320 --> 1:57:57.000 just because the security apparatus is so strong and so 1:57:57.080 --> 1:58:01.200 intense that that kind of thing doesn't happen. At the 1:58:01.240 --> 1:58:04.839 same time, you feel that tension, that kind of fear. Um. 1:58:04.880 --> 1:58:08.280 So I think that's the main reason why, um, you're 1:58:08.320 --> 1:58:11.840 not seeing these sort of protests in Chechnia. When we 1:58:11.920 --> 1:58:15.600 talk about like what is it reasonable to hope for here? 1:58:16.000 --> 1:58:17.640 I wonder if you have any thoughts on that from 1:58:17.720 --> 1:58:21.680 Dagastan like in terms of resistance to both this kind 1:58:21.720 --> 1:58:25.440 of general conscription order and resistance in general to the 1:58:25.680 --> 1:58:29.400 to the increasing imperial aims of the Russian state. Yeah, 1:58:29.560 --> 1:58:32.080 I think it's revealing those tracks that I mentioned in 1:58:32.080 --> 1:58:34.880 the beginning about identity and then kind of this this 1:58:34.960 --> 1:58:39.200 region not feeling like a part of Russia. And I think, um, 1:58:39.560 --> 1:58:44.200 the other thing is that it it it's unprecedented in 1:58:44.240 --> 1:58:46.720 many ways just in terms of its messaging, and your 1:58:46.800 --> 1:58:50.080 protest movements in general are seemed to kind of when 1:58:50.120 --> 1:58:53.760 you participate in a movement, UM, it's it's really transforming 1:58:54.360 --> 1:58:57.200 on an individual level. You feel like you're part of something. 1:58:57.280 --> 1:59:00.240 You see all these other people on the street, who 1:59:00.240 --> 1:59:03.560 are you agreeing with you in a context that's so 1:59:03.680 --> 1:59:06.440 authoritarian where and you don't you know, have that freedom 1:59:06.560 --> 1:59:09.280 to speak out there's no free media. Um. In general. 1:59:09.840 --> 1:59:14.760 Um it's it's it's transformative. And I think that's probably 1:59:15.200 --> 1:59:17.640 for me, at least as a social movement scholar, the 1:59:17.680 --> 1:59:20.160 most interesting aspects. I mean, we can't predict, We don't 1:59:20.160 --> 1:59:22.240 know what's going to happen. There might be in a 1:59:22.280 --> 1:59:25.680 new wave of repression. UM, but it's it's revealing these 1:59:25.680 --> 1:59:33.600 cracks and um kind of almost providing this proof of 1:59:33.640 --> 1:59:37.560 the the lie of this you know, unified Russian state 1:59:37.960 --> 1:59:41.920 that that is being kept together by a repression in propaganda. UM. 1:59:41.960 --> 1:59:46.520 I think the messaging also reflects a change in identity 1:59:46.720 --> 1:59:52.960 in oppositional identity in the region. Um. Previously, protests in 1:59:52.960 --> 1:59:56.440 the region were directed at the local leadership, so at 1:59:56.440 --> 2:00:00.680 the republican level. Right, so these are usually con who 2:00:00.760 --> 2:00:03.960 are installed by Moscow, not so much to govern, but 2:00:04.040 --> 2:00:08.040 more to manage UM and check and leader Ransankada is 2:00:08.240 --> 2:00:11.000 an extreme caste of this. And it was a practice 2:00:11.040 --> 2:00:13.840 common in Imperial Russia. Right, you install your own guy, 2:00:13.880 --> 2:00:16.640 but he's local, so it fits better with the population, 2:00:17.400 --> 2:00:20.160 even if they're only there to carry out policies that 2:00:20.200 --> 2:00:24.320 are decided and um. So those protest movements were normally 2:00:24.360 --> 2:00:30.640 against the republican authorities, um, their excesses, their corruption, um, 2:00:30.760 --> 2:00:33.840 you know. And again the exception to that is philopism, 2:00:33.880 --> 2:00:37.320 which was targeting both Moscow and the local leadership. But 2:00:37.560 --> 2:00:42.320 here in this new wave of protest movement, the sentiment 2:00:42.360 --> 2:00:47.520 the grievances against Putin and that's totally now. And I 2:00:48.640 --> 2:00:50.720 one of the things that is kind of remarkable is 2:00:51.560 --> 2:00:53.640 you've gotten in the wave of and these are not 2:00:53.720 --> 2:00:55.920 just in Dagistan, but Dagistan had a lot of the 2:00:55.920 --> 2:01:00.640 protest against this general mobilization order. You actually have what 2:01:00.640 --> 2:01:03.400 what looks to me and you're you're certainly certainly no 2:01:03.440 --> 2:01:04.720 more than I do. So tell me if you think 2:01:04.760 --> 2:01:06.680 my analysis, if this is wrong. But looks to me 2:01:06.720 --> 2:01:09.680 like the regime blinking a little bit, because in the 2:01:09.720 --> 2:01:12.400 wake of the protests, you had both Putin and a 2:01:12.440 --> 2:01:14.400 number of different local leaders come out and say we 2:01:14.720 --> 2:01:16.840 because one of the things that was happening as soon 2:01:16.880 --> 2:01:19.360 as the mobilization started, as you saw a lot of 2:01:19.360 --> 2:01:22.800 these people, including like doctors, healthcare workers, other kinds of 2:01:22.840 --> 2:01:25.680 professionals and industries that are generally protected from this sort 2:01:25.680 --> 2:01:29.040 of thing getting pulled in by state forces and effectively 2:01:29.120 --> 2:01:33.000 drafted on the spot along with protesters and um. The 2:01:33.200 --> 2:01:36.280 in the wake of the outcry against that, Putin himself 2:01:36.280 --> 2:01:39.080 and a number of other local leaders have come out 2:01:39.120 --> 2:01:41.040 and been like, this was a mistake. We're releasing a 2:01:41.120 --> 2:01:43.640 number of these people, these these certain certain you know, 2:01:44.000 --> 2:01:46.160 we're not supposed to be drafting people from these certain 2:01:46.160 --> 2:01:49.200 professions and whatnot. And to me that looked like, well, 2:01:49.240 --> 2:01:51.240 maybe that's a little bit of a blink. Um, But 2:01:51.280 --> 2:01:55.000 I don't know if perhaps I'm being overly optimistic there. No, 2:01:55.120 --> 2:01:58.520 I agree, um, And it speaks to the level of 2:01:58.560 --> 2:02:03.320 mobilization that kind of un stended. Um Um. Levels of 2:02:03.360 --> 2:02:08.240 mobilization on the street and also speaks to the fact 2:02:08.320 --> 2:02:11.160 that you know, previously Moscow, I mean they didn't care 2:02:11.240 --> 2:02:14.600 as much when the protests were directed at the local authorities. 2:02:14.680 --> 2:02:17.120 I mean they did, but not like this. This is 2:02:17.200 --> 2:02:19.560 this is threatening UM. And I was listening to an 2:02:19.560 --> 2:02:23.800 interview of a protest organizer from Augustan. He's exiled, like 2:02:23.840 --> 2:02:25.560 he's kind of you know, in touch with the people 2:02:25.600 --> 2:02:27.600 on the ground and he and he was talking about 2:02:28.160 --> 2:02:33.440 how he felt that the reason mobilization orders have been 2:02:33.760 --> 2:02:38.480 UM commissioned kind of to the Republican regional authorities is 2:02:39.360 --> 2:02:44.640 on purpose so that grievances UM aren't directed towards Moscow, 2:02:44.680 --> 2:02:47.800 because it's the regional authorities deciding on who's being mobilized. UM. 2:02:48.040 --> 2:02:51.640 And it's a kind of deflection of blame that he 2:02:51.720 --> 2:02:56.040 thought was by design. And the interviewer asked him a 2:02:56.040 --> 2:02:57.880 couple of other questions. He was saying, oh, you know, 2:02:58.120 --> 2:03:01.360 we're hearing reports about the police being really brutal um. 2:03:01.400 --> 2:03:05.400 And again he was like, no, not really, or that's 2:03:05.400 --> 2:03:07.360 not the point, that's not the question to be asking. 2:03:07.400 --> 2:03:10.720 It's actually deflecting because again, the grievance is not to 2:03:10.760 --> 2:03:13.480 the local police. It's actually towards Moscow, who is you know, 2:03:13.840 --> 2:03:17.640 the origin of this whole problem, and I think that's 2:03:17.720 --> 2:03:20.400 that's a threat. Do you have any kind of advice 2:03:20.440 --> 2:03:23.120 for people if they're looking as kind of things continue 2:03:23.160 --> 2:03:26.640 to develop in Dagistan as there are more protests, which 2:03:26.640 --> 2:03:30.360 I'm sure there will be. Are there actually like organizations 2:03:30.360 --> 2:03:32.879 over there that can be supported by people, um, including 2:03:32.880 --> 2:03:35.920 you mentioned independent media there. UM. I'm just wondering if 2:03:35.920 --> 2:03:37.840 you have any kind of particular advice for folks who 2:03:37.880 --> 2:03:40.480 might either want to learn more about the region what's 2:03:40.520 --> 2:03:43.080 going on, um, or who might want to try and 2:03:43.160 --> 2:03:49.120 help the people who are protesting right now. UM. Unfortunately, 2:03:49.160 --> 2:03:52.440 there's um not much for outsiders to do a lot 2:03:52.440 --> 2:03:54.080 of the news, and I think it was kind of 2:03:54.120 --> 2:03:57.440 expecting that the answer. Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's kind 2:03:57.480 --> 2:04:00.320 of a denied context. So where I get the news 2:04:00.520 --> 2:04:04.240 is a couple of telegram channels that are only in Russian. UM, 2:04:04.320 --> 2:04:06.840 so that probably doesn't help your audience if they don't 2:04:06.840 --> 2:04:09.840 speak Russian. There's a couple of Twitter accounts that I 2:04:09.840 --> 2:04:13.400 would recommend people follow, you know, UM, there's UM, I 2:04:13.440 --> 2:04:17.680 don't know, I can mention that or yeah, please, no, absolutely, 2:04:18.800 --> 2:04:21.280 let me quickly find the guide personally. When it comes 2:04:21.280 --> 2:04:23.600 to like where I'm able to get English language news 2:04:23.760 --> 2:04:27.240 about the region, Medusa is generally kind of like one 2:04:27.240 --> 2:04:29.200 of the places where I've gotten some. Medusa is a 2:04:29.280 --> 2:04:33.360 Russian news site that's or news organization that's banned in Russia. 2:04:33.400 --> 2:04:35.680 In fact, if I'm not mistaken, a MEDUSA journalist just 2:04:35.720 --> 2:04:40.120 got arrested in Dagastan by the State Security Services. UM. 2:04:40.160 --> 2:04:43.320 But you can go to Medusa dot io and that's 2:04:43.360 --> 2:04:47.800 one place where I've come across news that's English language. UM. 2:04:47.840 --> 2:04:50.200 It's not the most detailed coverage, but it's kind of 2:04:50.200 --> 2:04:52.160 hard to find that in English about stuff going on 2:04:52.160 --> 2:04:54.440 in Dagistan. It is, it is hard to find it. 2:04:54.520 --> 2:04:57.920 I would echo that sentiment of Medusa being a good 2:04:57.920 --> 2:05:01.840 source for that. UM. There's a researcher on Twitter named 2:05:01.880 --> 2:05:05.920 Harold Chambers. His handle is Chambers Harold eight, the number eight, 2:05:06.120 --> 2:05:09.400 and he is an analyst and he is posting kind 2:05:09.400 --> 2:05:12.080 of more detailed, you know, in the weeds, up to 2:05:12.280 --> 2:05:16.520 you know, up to date, day to day developments from 2:05:16.560 --> 2:05:20.000 from the region. UM. And is there anything like as 2:05:20.080 --> 2:05:23.520 as we I'm kind of closing out here UM that 2:05:23.560 --> 2:05:26.320 you wanted to particularly get into about what's happening over 2:05:26.360 --> 2:05:30.200 there about kind of um, the development of social movements 2:05:30.200 --> 2:05:33.680 in Dagistan right now that you you find particularly fascinating 2:05:33.680 --> 2:05:36.720 that you'd like to kind of talk about to the audience. Yeah, 2:05:36.920 --> 2:05:39.760 I think, um, the context of the Russian war on 2:05:39.880 --> 2:05:44.080 terrorism in the North Caucasus praise a huge role here um. 2:05:44.120 --> 2:05:46.840 And I mentioned, you know, the counter terrorists operations that 2:05:46.840 --> 2:05:49.160 that Russia used to use in the region as a 2:05:49.160 --> 2:05:52.560 repression tool um, so they didn't have to be sal 2:05:52.560 --> 2:05:55.600 office or kind of you know, seeing this extremists to 2:05:55.760 --> 2:05:58.880 be targeted and stuff like that, like secular Dakistani's and 2:05:58.920 --> 2:06:02.240 Chechens were absolutely targeted, and and that kind of in 2:06:02.320 --> 2:06:05.680 those um in in those um in that context of 2:06:06.000 --> 2:06:08.839 counter terrorism. And it's really the fact that your dungiesst 2:06:08.840 --> 2:06:13.240 studies are really tired of the repression. People leave the 2:06:13.280 --> 2:06:16.640 republic and move abroad um because they've been labeled a 2:06:16.720 --> 2:06:19.160 terrorist and they don't want to die um. And when 2:06:19.160 --> 2:06:22.320 their families send them money um to support them abroad, 2:06:22.520 --> 2:06:25.640 they get um labeled as terrorists because they're helping you know, 2:06:25.680 --> 2:06:29.800 support a terrorists. So it's it's why It's also why 2:06:29.840 --> 2:06:34.040 the movement is leaderless um, because there's really no intelligencia 2:06:34.120 --> 2:06:36.840 or leaders left in the republic um anywhere. Anyone who 2:06:36.920 --> 2:06:40.320 had any kind of critical standpoint um has either been 2:06:40.360 --> 2:06:43.800 killed or exiled. So we have to see the mobilization 2:06:43.840 --> 2:06:45.960 in Dungista is kind of you know, with that backdrop, 2:06:46.280 --> 2:06:51.280 people are tired of the repression um and and yeah, 2:06:51.320 --> 2:06:54.760 the protests are spontaneous, and the fact that it's horizontal 2:06:55.000 --> 2:06:59.280 is also unprecedented, and it obviously means that it's much 2:06:59.320 --> 2:07:02.600 harder to repress the movement and suppress it because there's 2:07:02.600 --> 2:07:06.400 no individuals to kind of target. That's interesting because that's 2:07:06.400 --> 2:07:10.080 obviously a global trend that we've seen in protest movements, 2:07:10.120 --> 2:07:12.600 not just against the Russian state, that around the world, 2:07:12.680 --> 2:07:17.600 governments have gotten much better at note finding leaders in 2:07:17.760 --> 2:07:23.000 protest movements, compromising them, going after them, targeting them, arresting them. Um. 2:07:23.040 --> 2:07:25.360 It's and I think this has been a part of 2:07:25.400 --> 2:07:27.840 why all over the world you've seen so many more 2:07:27.880 --> 2:07:33.200 horizontal movements leading street protests against different kinds of oppression, 2:07:33.280 --> 2:07:36.920 because it's really the only thing that can't be compromised 2:07:36.920 --> 2:07:45.680 easily by the security forces. Yeah, especially in an authoritarian contexts. Yeah. Well, um, Karina, 2:07:45.720 --> 2:07:47.480 is there anything else you wanted to say before we 2:07:47.600 --> 2:07:51.320 close out? No, No, that's all right. Well why don't 2:07:51.360 --> 2:07:53.560 we talk a little bit about your plugs here, because 2:07:53.640 --> 2:07:57.240 you have a podcast that you're about to be starting, Yeah, 2:07:57.640 --> 2:08:01.880 starting a podcast. It is called obscurest Den Podcasts, where 2:08:01.960 --> 2:08:06.400 we'll talk about the bizarre and fucked up nature of 2:08:06.520 --> 2:08:09.640 the region of Eurasia. Um, but also more importantly how 2:08:09.640 --> 2:08:12.280 it got that way. Yeah, so that's what we're doing. 2:08:12.680 --> 2:08:15.680 I can think a few more topics, more important topics 2:08:15.680 --> 2:08:19.040 for people, particularly people just where I live. To understand, 2:08:19.120 --> 2:08:21.760 so many people have been affected in in You know, 2:08:21.760 --> 2:08:25.200 we're looking at the energy crisis hitting the UK and 2:08:25.200 --> 2:08:27.920 and to a slightly lesser extent, continental Europe. Right now, 2:08:27.960 --> 2:08:31.040 we're looking at rising food prices in the United States, 2:08:31.120 --> 2:08:34.400 all of it tied to this conflict, which people wouldn't 2:08:34.400 --> 2:08:37.320 have been surprised by if they'd been paying attention to 2:08:37.360 --> 2:08:41.360 Eurasian history and politics a little bit more. Um. So 2:08:41.560 --> 2:08:44.400 I I think that's a commendable effort and I'm excited 2:08:44.440 --> 2:08:47.480 to start listening. Um, thank you so much. Yes, can 2:08:47.520 --> 2:08:50.720 I mentioned one last things? And so I'm I'm sitting 2:08:50.720 --> 2:08:53.120 in Armenia and speaking to you from Armenia. So, UM, 2:08:53.120 --> 2:08:57.120 I would just encourage your listeners to find out about 2:08:57.120 --> 2:08:59.840 what's happening. We were recently attacked by I was pretty 2:08:59.840 --> 2:09:02.240 sure on and um we have some for n one 2:09:02.320 --> 2:09:05.920 score kilometers that are currently occupied by OSSIANNY soldiers. So 2:09:05.960 --> 2:09:08.160 I would encourage people to learn about the conflict and 2:09:08.240 --> 2:09:11.480 kind of pay attention to what's happening here. Yeah. Absolutely, UM, 2:09:11.600 --> 2:09:15.040 we continue to be big advocates for folks paying attention 2:09:15.080 --> 2:09:20.720 to that. Um. And uh, yeah, it's it's I don't know, 2:09:21.120 --> 2:09:24.120 you know, I had this brief period of like optimism 2:09:24.240 --> 2:09:27.960 when the White House started making statements and Pelosi visited that, 2:09:28.040 --> 2:09:30.960 like and we'll see maybe that I know there's like 2:09:31.280 --> 2:09:34.640 there's a vote coming up right now in Congress to 2:09:34.960 --> 2:09:38.120 stop selling weapons to these areas, which would be at 2:09:38.200 --> 2:09:41.680 least a start. Um. But I mean, you know, it's 2:09:41.800 --> 2:09:44.720 the what's I think is necessary is for our Menia 2:09:44.760 --> 2:09:47.200 to have access to the kind of weapons that have 2:09:47.320 --> 2:09:50.920 been so successful at stopping for an aggression and other countries. 2:09:50.920 --> 2:09:56.480 Shall we say, Yeah, well all right, Karina, thank you 2:09:56.520 --> 2:09:58.920 so much for your time. That's gonna be our show 2:09:58.960 --> 2:10:02.320 for the day. Have a good one. Everybody keep paying 2:10:02.360 --> 2:10:20.160 attention to stuff he trying to conceive of it, girl Boss, noised, No, 2:10:20.360 --> 2:10:23.160 I'm trying. There's trying to think of something that's about 2:10:23.280 --> 2:10:25.720 like Italian racism, um and how we should all be 2:10:25.800 --> 2:10:30.760 racist against Italians. Um because now it's important. Um oh hi, 2:10:30.960 --> 2:10:34.200 welcome to it could happen here the show where we're 2:10:34.240 --> 2:10:40.400 talking about anti Italian racism um and and also girl 2:10:40.440 --> 2:10:43.880 Bosses finally to two great tastes that go great together, 2:10:46.640 --> 2:10:52.480 like mixing peanut butter and piss. That's right, the piss 2:10:52.560 --> 2:10:57.640 being Italians. Girl Boss. I usually don't say things that 2:10:57.640 --> 2:11:01.440 are that obvious, but yes, uh with me today is 2:11:02.000 --> 2:11:06.880 Chris James and Robert I'm Garrison, and we're talking about 2:11:07.120 --> 2:11:13.640 girl boss fascism today. Um and uh's are we gonna 2:11:13.640 --> 2:11:16.720 say Georgia? Is that how we're going to do it? 2:11:16.800 --> 2:11:19.320 Is that how we're gonna say her name? Georgia? But 2:11:19.440 --> 2:11:24.480 I don't know George Georgia Milani. Georgia Milani, Georgia Milani 2:11:24.920 --> 2:11:29.600 at Le's new prime Minister, Gia Milan. That's what I 2:11:29.680 --> 2:11:34.600 was waiting for. You put some Italian on it. Yeah, 2:11:34.840 --> 2:11:40.080 we spice up that meat a ball. So since since 2:11:41.080 --> 2:11:43.640 she's been the head of the Brothers of Italy Party, 2:11:43.640 --> 2:11:45.240 which is funny because what I think of the Brothers 2:11:45.240 --> 2:11:48.480 of Italy, I just think of Mario and Luigi. Obviously 2:11:48.520 --> 2:11:52.320 that's there, That's what most people think. So but Marco 2:11:52.400 --> 2:11:59.680 and Luigi also fascists, so well they're monarchists. Yeah, there 2:11:59.720 --> 2:12:05.840 mona gusts. They specifically served princess. So so Bowser is 2:12:06.120 --> 2:12:12.320 Bowser is your standard issue left wing polit bureau chief 2:12:12.360 --> 2:12:16.880 type leader. Whereas what Mario and Luigi are doing, like 2:12:17.040 --> 2:12:22.520 Mussolini is installing a royal in power, is taking its 2:12:22.600 --> 2:12:25.520 Essentially every Mario game is recreating the March on Rome. 2:12:25.840 --> 2:12:30.000 I have like ten pages to get through stool come 2:12:30.040 --> 2:12:34.000 into it. So it's fun importants for the head of 2:12:34.040 --> 2:12:38.400 the Brothers of Italy Party, a party with directlydiage from 2:12:38.400 --> 2:12:43.120 the fascist Italian Social Movement, and Melani herself has been 2:12:43.160 --> 2:12:47.600 on camera praising figures like Mussolini. Uh and until very 2:12:47.640 --> 2:12:50.880 recently the Brothers of Italy Party. Besides being a very 2:12:50.920 --> 2:12:53.520 pro plumbing we're we're pretty on the we're pretty on 2:12:53.560 --> 2:12:58.320 the fridges of Italian volunteers. Just four years ago, the 2:12:58.360 --> 2:13:01.040 party one only four pres scent of the votes in 2:13:01.080 --> 2:13:05.040 the last election, and now it's become Italy's largest political party, 2:13:05.320 --> 2:13:07.920 claiming the greatest percentage of the vote in the last 2:13:08.040 --> 2:13:14.080 month's election. So today we're gonna talk about who Millennia is, 2:13:14.160 --> 2:13:16.920 what what she believes, what she kind of what what 2:13:16.960 --> 2:13:21.680 her rhetoric is, and then also the types of how 2:13:22.160 --> 2:13:25.240 the types of ways that media has been framing her 2:13:25.240 --> 2:13:28.720 relation to fascism, because there's definitely been this perception that 2:13:28.880 --> 2:13:32.320 like liberal feminists and mainstream media have been kind of 2:13:32.360 --> 2:13:36.120 soft on Melanie because she's the first woman prime Minister 2:13:36.400 --> 2:13:39.560 of Italy UM and they have they've kind of framed 2:13:39.600 --> 2:13:42.840 her ascension to power and like a girl boss go 2:13:43.000 --> 2:13:46.720 get it sort of way, and have been downplaying her 2:13:46.960 --> 2:13:49.560 more fascist views. So we're gonna talk about kind of 2:13:49.600 --> 2:13:52.520 where this perception comes from, the few ways where it's 2:13:52.600 --> 2:13:55.000 kind of correct, and some of the ways where it's 2:13:55.080 --> 2:13:58.120 I think a little off base. To start off with this, 2:13:58.280 --> 2:14:00.120 one of the kind of one of the biggest things 2:14:00.120 --> 2:14:05.240 that UH pushed this perception into the forefront was a 2:14:05.280 --> 2:14:09.960 tweet from Political Europe accompanying an article now that this 2:14:09.960 --> 2:14:15.320 this tweet. Sorry, thank you, thank you. And because I 2:14:15.640 --> 2:14:19.360 hate basing our research off of things that are just 2:14:19.440 --> 2:14:22.360 on Twitter, this tweet has been referenced a lot on 2:14:22.520 --> 2:14:25.760 like television, UM, on like News, and like News TV 2:14:25.960 --> 2:14:27.880 has been using this tweet a lot as well. This 2:14:27.960 --> 2:14:30.720 is this is kind of shaped the way that discussions 2:14:30.760 --> 2:14:34.480 happening on a national stage even off Twitter. Um. But 2:14:34.680 --> 2:14:38.960 the tweet. The tweet reads in a fifteen year old 2:14:39.000 --> 2:14:42.360 school girl went to join her local branch of the 2:14:42.440 --> 2:14:46.680 far right Youth Front in Rome. The all male group 2:14:46.680 --> 2:14:51.080 of radicals met her with amusement. Thirty years later, Georgia 2:14:51.200 --> 2:14:55.800 Milani is now on course to become Italy's first female 2:14:55.920 --> 2:14:59.960 prime minister. So the way that frameorworks is like, yeah, 2:15:00.080 --> 2:15:03.320 uh this this little girl wanted to join her Nazi 2:15:03.400 --> 2:15:08.240 club and it was and now she's finally private minister, 2:15:08.400 --> 2:15:11.760 the first one. And so yes, obviously this is very 2:15:11.800 --> 2:15:15.880 cringe e um, not not great framing a lot of 2:15:15.880 --> 2:15:23.480 good girl Hitler jokes. Even presidents listen, I'm no really, 2:15:23.600 --> 2:15:29.120 I'm happy. Wow a girl president. How progressive and so 2:15:29.360 --> 2:15:34.920 takes venture brothers. Uh, no uncritical support, it's just just 2:15:35.120 --> 2:15:40.240 support to venture brothers. Um, so takes like like that, 2:15:40.400 --> 2:15:42.960 like what like what we just heard a dean of 2:15:43.200 --> 2:15:47.560 Ventures say kind of kind of spawned a big slew 2:15:47.960 --> 2:15:51.400 of of comments. You know, I'm just gonna read, read, 2:15:51.480 --> 2:15:53.200 read some of the stuff that the people have been 2:15:53.240 --> 2:15:56.400 saying in response to stuff like that Political Europe a 2:15:56.520 --> 2:16:01.200 piece quote begging liberals to stop praising girl Bossolini for 2:16:01.280 --> 2:16:04.280 being brave enough to shatter the glass ceiling in the 2:16:04.320 --> 2:16:08.120 neo fascist parties she's joined, and like why is media 2:16:08.240 --> 2:16:11.240 treating this as a freaking girl boss story? The girl 2:16:11.320 --> 2:16:16.040 bossification of Georgia Miladi has been interesting to watch. Liberals 2:16:16.080 --> 2:16:19.360 will literally stand anybody. So there's a lot of a 2:16:19.400 --> 2:16:21.240 lot of takes like that have been have been have 2:16:21.320 --> 2:16:27.280 been going around. There's there's been extremely viral viral tweets 2:16:27.280 --> 2:16:31.080 getting hundreds of thousands of of likes, thousands of thousands 2:16:31.080 --> 2:16:33.800 three tweets and shares, stuff getting referenced on national TV 2:16:35.240 --> 2:16:39.200 all kind of about this, you know, people complaining the 2:16:39.320 --> 2:16:41.760 takes from Political Europe and and other other kind of 2:16:41.840 --> 2:16:46.400 various soft headlines emphasizing the girl boss nature being like 2:16:46.440 --> 2:16:49.320 the sweet little girl defies the odds and grows up 2:16:49.320 --> 2:16:53.360 to be the first female Mussolini. So like, some of 2:16:53.360 --> 2:16:56.119 these jokes are pretty funny. I think I think they're 2:16:56.160 --> 2:17:00.320 they're funny. Um, they're fine. There is oh, probably the 2:17:00.400 --> 2:17:03.240 worst one of these takes that I found that still 2:17:03.280 --> 2:17:06.400 got hundreds of retweets and thousands of likes was quote 2:17:06.800 --> 2:17:10.680 the American right and the American Left. The aesthetics are different, 2:17:10.800 --> 2:17:14.119 but the effect is the same. Support for the rising 2:17:14.200 --> 2:17:18.360 tide of fascism. Communists are the only people now as 2:17:18.360 --> 2:17:27.080 in the past who truly opposed fascion far for fox sake. 2:17:29.760 --> 2:17:34.879 True for those of you following along time, No, yeah, 2:17:35.040 --> 2:17:37.520 there was a terrible Megan McCain tweet, which is very 2:17:37.560 --> 2:17:40.480 funny because people definitely wish we'll talk about the Megan 2:17:40.520 --> 2:17:45.920 McCain can't wait I have, Yes, well, we'll talk about 2:17:45.920 --> 2:17:48.800 our good friend Megan McCain. But yeah, so you know 2:17:48.879 --> 2:17:52.520 Italy's Italy elected their first female Mussolini. Um in a 2:17:52.640 --> 2:17:55.920 remarkable victory for both girl power and diversity in politics 2:17:56.000 --> 2:18:01.600 and people. People. Uh, people had some good japes. So 2:18:01.959 --> 2:18:05.000 the other the other kind of big thing that caused 2:18:05.040 --> 2:18:11.760 this perception that that like that like the liberals will 2:18:11.800 --> 2:18:14.280 literally stand anybody. The other big thing I kind of 2:18:14.280 --> 2:18:18.920 caused that was, uh, some viral quotes from Hillary Clinton, 2:18:19.720 --> 2:18:25.320 uh talking talking about the the role of of women 2:18:25.440 --> 2:18:32.199 in politics and referencing Milani. So some remarks from Hillary 2:18:32.240 --> 2:18:37.080 Clinton published in Italy last September. I think it was that. 2:18:37.240 --> 2:18:41.560 I think it was that, like the Venice of Film Festival. Actually, um, so, 2:18:42.000 --> 2:18:44.240 some some quotes from an interview that she gave at 2:18:44.240 --> 2:18:48.360 the Venice Film Festival went viral. Um mostly because tweets 2:18:48.400 --> 2:18:52.840 included to two small clips of of these quotes when 2:18:52.879 --> 2:18:58.560 she was talking about both women in politics and uh, Georgie, George, Gia, 2:18:58.760 --> 2:19:04.039 Georgia doing great, buddy. So multiple tweets circulated, mostly with 2:19:04.040 --> 2:19:07.480 two short quotes from Clinton getting the majority of attention, saying, quote, 2:19:07.720 --> 2:19:10.160 the election of the first woman prime minister in a 2:19:10.240 --> 2:19:13.520 country always represents a break with the past and is 2:19:13.560 --> 2:19:17.080 certainly a good thing unquote. And a second quote being 2:19:17.560 --> 2:19:20.600 every time a woman is elected to head of state 2:19:20.720 --> 2:19:25.039 or government, that is a step forward unquote. Um. Obviously, 2:19:25.200 --> 2:19:28.960 those takes in an of themselves not very good. I 2:19:29.200 --> 2:19:32.680 don't think there's a good opinions. UM. Shocking, shocking that 2:19:32.720 --> 2:19:36.440 we are going to criticize the statement from Hillary Clinton. 2:19:36.760 --> 2:19:40.640 This is this is rare for us. Um, it's you know, 2:19:40.760 --> 2:19:44.199 it's it's I'm I'm surprised as well. But um, these 2:19:44.280 --> 2:19:47.279 kind of are slightly cherry picked from a larger section 2:19:47.920 --> 2:19:51.400 of this interview discussing women in government and how the 2:19:51.480 --> 2:19:55.000 far right is starting to use tokenized women to uphold 2:19:55.080 --> 2:19:59.680 patriarchy and conservatism. So the first quote is taken from 2:19:59.760 --> 2:20:03.440 this from a translation of an interview that that that 2:20:03.720 --> 2:20:07.959 Clinton did at the Venice Film Festival in September, prior 2:20:08.080 --> 2:20:13.400 to Melanni's apparent victory in the Italian elections on September. 2:20:14.600 --> 2:20:18.039 So she do it in Italian Italian, you know, but 2:20:18.120 --> 2:20:21.560 it was only published in Italian, so we're translating from 2:20:21.600 --> 2:20:28.360 Italian back into English. Double translation. But the so in 2:20:28.760 --> 2:20:30.560 in a section of this interview talking about the increase 2:20:30.560 --> 2:20:34.280 of women in governmental leadership Roles. A translation from her 2:20:34.400 --> 2:20:37.680 remarks in the larger section of this interview reads, quote, 2:20:37.840 --> 2:20:39.960 the election of the first woman prime minister in a 2:20:40.000 --> 2:20:42.240 country always represents a break with the past and is 2:20:42.280 --> 2:20:45.120 certainly a good thing. But then, as with any leader, 2:20:45.240 --> 2:20:48.160 woman or man, she must be judged by what she does. 2:20:48.760 --> 2:20:53.240 I never agreed with Margaret Thatcher, but I admired her determination. Clearly, 2:20:53.560 --> 2:20:57.840 then the ideas are voted for. I admired her determinating 2:20:58.760 --> 2:21:01.240 stamp on the neck of the sucking class. Funck Off 2:21:01.360 --> 2:21:05.320 also doesn't Does she really oppose Margaret Thatcher's policies? Yeah, 2:21:05.800 --> 2:21:07.840 I don't know. I don't know if I believe that 2:21:07.879 --> 2:21:10.400 one that lady is dead in the world is better 2:21:10.480 --> 2:21:14.720 for it. Uh you Margaret Thatcher had girl power? Yes, 2:21:15.080 --> 2:21:18.040 of course. Do you think she effectively uti let girl 2:21:18.080 --> 2:21:21.320 power by funneling money to illegal paramilitary death squads in 2:21:21.360 --> 2:21:25.400 Northern Ireland? I don't know about that. There's this thing 2:21:25.600 --> 2:21:28.280 that you get with like people talking about all of 2:21:28.320 --> 2:21:31.920 these schools where and it's specifically like a centrist thing 2:21:31.920 --> 2:21:34.560 where it's like, well, certain things are just admirable traits, 2:21:34.600 --> 2:21:36.600 no matter about who has them, and you can admire 2:21:36.680 --> 2:21:39.960 that trait. And it's like, no, it's it's not like. 2:21:40.320 --> 2:21:42.560 There were a lot of men in the s s who, 2:21:42.879 --> 2:21:45.280 you know, we're willing to do things that you would 2:21:45.280 --> 2:21:47.480 call brave, but it doesn't mean you have to consider 2:21:47.520 --> 2:21:50.760 them admirable. I think you don't have to have respect 2:21:50.879 --> 2:21:53.839 for the you don't have to hand it to the Nazis. 2:21:53.879 --> 2:21:58.519 Exactly like just suck certain people. Yeah, yeah, the contribution 2:21:58.600 --> 2:22:01.520 to the world is bad. You can stop stop that, 2:22:02.640 --> 2:22:05.920 argre Thatcher being a good example. I have kind of 2:22:05.959 --> 2:22:08.720 the same thoughts on the inclusion of toadet inside the 2:22:08.720 --> 2:22:12.120 new Mario Kart games. It's just really it's it's just 2:22:12.280 --> 2:22:14.920 you're signifying it, but it's not actually a step forward 2:22:14.959 --> 2:22:18.080 for the toad race. It's um so. In the next 2:22:18.120 --> 2:22:22.280 section of the interview, Clinton also Harrison's Garrison's come out 2:22:22.280 --> 2:22:26.720 against work Mario cut the next section, Clinton also acknowledges 2:22:26.840 --> 2:22:31.920 conservative women politicians role in upholding patriarchal government, saying, quote, 2:22:32.080 --> 2:22:35.080 women on the right are protected by patriarchy because they 2:22:35.080 --> 2:22:37.600 are often the first to support the fundamental pillars of 2:22:37.680 --> 2:22:40.959 male power and privilege. Today in America, the right wing 2:22:41.040 --> 2:22:45.360 leaders are very much against abortion. Um So, she she 2:22:45.440 --> 2:22:47.879 did like it was part of this section talking about 2:22:47.879 --> 2:22:50.080 how women who are on the right and are running 2:22:50.120 --> 2:22:53.879 is concerned of politicians actually support all of the all 2:22:54.000 --> 2:22:56.760 the things that keep patriarchy alive and blah blah blah, 2:22:56.760 --> 2:22:59.160 blah blah blah blah. It's well, it's it's it's true centrism, right, 2:22:59.160 --> 2:23:01.080 It's half of a good taken half of a terrible 2:23:01.160 --> 2:23:08.160 exactly exact exactly so so yeah, so our snippets of 2:23:08.200 --> 2:23:12.560 her comments embarrassing rewomen being a break from the past, 2:23:12.600 --> 2:23:15.160 always being a good thing. Yes, most certainly. M Are 2:23:15.200 --> 2:23:17.320 they taken out of context enough to change the scope 2:23:17.320 --> 2:23:20.760 of what's being said? I suppose that's the subjective. Um, 2:23:20.800 --> 2:23:23.080 But I just thought that's interesting that there was very 2:23:23.120 --> 2:23:26.039 select few quotes that were getting a whole bunch of traction, 2:23:26.360 --> 2:23:30.800 and her larger statements are actually slightly more interesting article 2:23:31.360 --> 2:23:33.640 don't don't do the Alex Jones ship of getting mad 2:23:33.680 --> 2:23:37.760 at a headline? Yeah six seconds, Like, come on, people, 2:23:38.080 --> 2:23:41.360 you have to be better than this. And I think, still, 2:23:42.840 --> 2:23:45.440 you know, I see the same thing whenever I'm playing 2:23:45.440 --> 2:23:50.240 Mario Sunshine and there's the graffiti. Um, you can you 2:23:50.240 --> 2:23:52.640 can get mad at just saying it's the graffiti all 2:23:52.680 --> 2:23:55.520 over Definitely, no pasa, you can get mad about that. 2:23:55.520 --> 2:23:58.680 But once you actually start learning how Bowser Jr. Was 2:23:58.720 --> 2:24:01.680 treated as a kid, it's it's there's actually more. There's 2:24:01.720 --> 2:24:04.200 more that you actually can understand about what's going on 2:24:04.200 --> 2:24:09.119 and what leads to that behavior from Bowser Jr. Very identifiable. 2:24:09.200 --> 2:24:12.959 Everybody understands those references. Garrison, good work. Yeah. I just 2:24:13.000 --> 2:24:14.879 want to say that there is only one square in 2:24:14.920 --> 2:24:18.560 Italy that matters, and that is Pie Saliretto and you 2:24:18.600 --> 2:24:21.400 can you can google it. I just I love the 2:24:21.760 --> 2:24:26.120 juxtaposition of Garrison struggling over every single word that's in 2:24:26.160 --> 2:24:29.160 the in the neighborhood of Italy, and then James just 2:24:29.280 --> 2:24:33.720 perfectly saying, some fucking Italian ship. My Italian is bad, 2:24:33.760 --> 2:24:37.440 My Italian comes exclusively. Your Italian is much better than 2:24:37.480 --> 2:24:41.920 anyone else. Here's maybe I swear, I swear other managed 2:24:41.959 --> 2:24:44.560 bandix is. I know a couple of curse words from 2:24:44.560 --> 2:24:46.920 watching my uncle's playpool when I was a kid. But 2:24:46.959 --> 2:24:49.880 that's about all I've got. I rely on that hand gesture, 2:24:49.959 --> 2:24:52.480 which works very well, and hand gestures are eight percent 2:24:52.520 --> 2:24:55.880 of Italian. Yeah, yes, it's true. Okay, So now, having 2:24:55.879 --> 2:24:58.840 now exhausted every conceivable Italian joke, we could proceed with 2:24:58.840 --> 2:25:01.800 the scrip. Oh I don't we keep receiving We can 2:25:01.840 --> 2:25:03.840 actually proceed with an ad break. Do you do you 2:25:04.080 --> 2:25:08.000 know what else is in support of anti Italian racism? 2:25:08.000 --> 2:25:09.960 Who won't kill miss Leny hang him upside down in 2:25:10.000 --> 2:25:13.800 the square? I mean probably the current Prime Minister of Italy. Yeah, 2:25:13.840 --> 2:25:19.800 that's true. Also probably these advertisers, okay, and we are back. 2:25:20.080 --> 2:25:23.320 So there was there has been this kind of perception 2:25:23.440 --> 2:25:25.320 that the media kind of by and large dropped the 2:25:25.360 --> 2:25:29.560 ball on this one, and this sentiments was pretty widespread 2:25:29.680 --> 2:25:32.520 among leftists that the kind of there was a lot 2:25:32.520 --> 2:25:36.360 of emphasis on the the breaking the fascist glass of 2:25:36.400 --> 2:25:40.480 ceiling and less on the fascist part. There was even 2:25:40.640 --> 2:25:44.640 people like the MSNBC hosts Meddi Hassan who ran a 2:25:44.640 --> 2:25:49.160 whole segment on his show about kind of mainstream liberal media, 2:25:49.400 --> 2:25:54.160 let's downplaying the fascistic elements of milani uh in headlines 2:25:54.480 --> 2:25:58.400 in favor of the girl power angle. What's been so 2:25:58.520 --> 2:26:00.920 depressing it is to see so much of the quote 2:26:00.959 --> 2:26:04.800 unquote liberal media, the mainstream media, the m s M 2:26:05.320 --> 2:26:07.680 giving a pass to Maloney or playing down her and 2:26:07.720 --> 2:26:10.680 her party's fascist roots, focusing more on the fact that 2:26:10.720 --> 2:26:15.000 she's female and less on the fact that she's you know, fascistic. 2:26:15.440 --> 2:26:19.280 That has been deeply, deeply depressing to see. There was 2:26:19.400 --> 2:26:25.200 the Washington Post headline, Georgia Maloney could become Italy's first 2:26:25.640 --> 2:26:31.080 female prime minister. Here's what to know. Now here's what 2:26:31.120 --> 2:26:34.680 you wouldn't know from that headline. You wouldn't know that 2:26:35.440 --> 2:26:39.520 she has ties to fascism. But hey, she's female. There 2:26:39.600 --> 2:26:43.080 was the headline in the Financial Times. We can pull 2:26:43.120 --> 2:26:47.039 that up as well. Likely victory for Italian right portends risks, 2:26:47.320 --> 2:26:51.120 but no lurch into extremism. Don't worry, no hurts to extremism, 2:26:51.120 --> 2:26:55.240 even though they just elected card carrying extremists. But still 2:26:55.400 --> 2:26:58.680 hers is a heartwarming tale, isn't it. I kid you not. 2:26:58.800 --> 2:27:01.200 This was the tweet from Police to CO Europe. That's 2:27:01.240 --> 2:27:05.240 pull up the tweet from Politico Europe. In July, fifteen 2:27:05.280 --> 2:27:07.760 year old school girl rang the doorbell at a local 2:27:07.800 --> 2:27:10.240 branch of the Youth Front, a far right movement in Rome, 2:27:10.400 --> 2:27:13.840 and asked to be let in this weekend, that same 2:27:13.920 --> 2:27:19.600 school girl could become Italy's next prime minister. Wow, forget 2:27:19.640 --> 2:27:24.720 the fascism, forget the fascism, focus on the inspiration there. 2:27:25.360 --> 2:27:26.959 Then there was this op ed in the New York Times, 2:27:27.040 --> 2:27:31.520 Georgia Maloney is extreme, but she's no tyrant. Well that's 2:27:31.560 --> 2:27:34.080 all right, then, at least she's not a tyrant. There 2:27:34.120 --> 2:27:36.400 was this OpEd in the Atlantic which argued that the 2:27:36.440 --> 2:27:39.160 most immediate concern about Italy's new government. Is not any 2:27:39.200 --> 2:27:42.800 threat to the country's democratic institution, still less a return 2:27:42.840 --> 2:27:46.440 to fascism. Did you notice a trend? Yet it's not 2:27:46.520 --> 2:27:49.760 as bad as you think. This isn't really fascism. So 2:27:50.360 --> 2:27:54.039 we'll we'll talk a bit more about media coverage of 2:27:54.080 --> 2:27:56.520 Milani's election in a bit and how I think some 2:27:56.560 --> 2:28:00.480 people are kind of desperate to see the stupid Democrat 2:28:00.520 --> 2:28:03.640 Libs shill for fascism trope, especially with the whole girl 2:28:03.680 --> 2:28:05.680 boss thing that they actually kind of miss how the 2:28:05.680 --> 2:28:09.160 framing of Milanni's fascist ties has been perceived on a 2:28:09.240 --> 2:28:11.440 broad scale. But first I want to get into who 2:28:11.480 --> 2:28:13.560 she actually is, what her views are, and what her 2:28:13.560 --> 2:28:16.800 election means. So it least a home. Italy is home 2:28:16.879 --> 2:28:30.760 to sixty million people, well with Robin, and it's continental 2:28:30.840 --> 2:28:34.560 Europe's third largest economy. When it comes to the actual election, 2:28:34.959 --> 2:28:38.680 the right wing coalition that Melani led one around of 2:28:38.720 --> 2:28:42.760 the vote, with Melani's Brothers of Italy Party getting around 2:28:44.000 --> 2:28:47.160 for the Senate race. So in all around three out 2:28:47.160 --> 2:28:51.240 of four voters did not vote for Melani and one 2:28:51.280 --> 2:28:53.840 in three didn't even vote at all, No surprise there, 2:28:54.320 --> 2:28:57.000 But overall that means like only one in six Italian 2:28:57.040 --> 2:29:00.879 adults voted for the Brothers of Italy party and that 2:29:00.879 --> 2:29:03.200 that does, that does make them the biggest party in 2:29:03.200 --> 2:29:07.760 the new parliament, but it's long term legitimacy is still 2:29:07.800 --> 2:29:12.080 kind of in question because she was leading a larger 2:29:12.360 --> 2:29:17.000 right wing block but the but the actual party that 2:29:17.400 --> 2:29:23.480 she's in and leads got the boat, so it's it's right, 2:29:23.480 --> 2:29:26.520 it's I think that's an important perspective on like how 2:29:26.560 --> 2:29:29.480 long she'll actually stay in power. Italian politics are kind 2:29:29.520 --> 2:29:32.600 of known for their kind of residing government not lasting 2:29:32.680 --> 2:29:36.240 very long. There's there's usually a pretty high like turnover rate, 2:29:36.680 --> 2:29:41.800 so we'll see. Um, yeah, they it's an interesting composition 2:29:41.920 --> 2:29:46.760 right of like like moderate moderate ish right wing people 2:29:47.000 --> 2:29:51.520 and then like some more hardcore like no that it's 2:29:51.520 --> 2:29:54.000 to people who used to be the League of the North, 2:29:54.640 --> 2:29:56.880 I think of the second largest party, so it's not 2:29:56.959 --> 2:30:00.960 like a homogeneous block that she's in. Job would be 2:30:01.040 --> 2:30:04.080 kind of interesting to see how they hold together. Yeah, 2:30:04.160 --> 2:30:06.959 and I think Melani can be an example of what 2:30:07.080 --> 2:30:13.400 political scientists called gender washing, when when female politicians adopt 2:30:13.879 --> 2:30:17.279 a non threatening image to blunt the force of their extremism. 2:30:17.320 --> 2:30:19.160 I think you can see this as well with Daisy 2:30:19.200 --> 2:30:23.119 inside Mario Kart for the for the Wei. Extremely brutal 2:30:23.360 --> 2:30:27.320 character play style, very brawley, but you know she acts 2:30:27.400 --> 2:30:31.520 very nice and that. Yeah, she's just like just powers 2:30:31.560 --> 2:30:36.440 through other other carts on the track. Um and it's it's. 2:30:36.480 --> 2:30:39.400 It leads to this slightly warped perception of what Daisy 2:30:39.440 --> 2:30:43.960 actually does. Um So and Melanie's signature look involves flowing 2:30:44.000 --> 2:30:47.560 outfits and pastel shades, kind of like Princess Peach Um 2:30:47.560 --> 2:30:50.280 and two uninformed Foreigners. Her a sthetic could look like 2:30:50.360 --> 2:30:53.600 female empowerment. She poses as like a defender of women, 2:30:54.280 --> 2:30:56.880 even though her party has rolled back women's rights, just 2:30:56.959 --> 2:31:00.440 like in uh the Two. As in six Princess Peach Game, 2:31:00.720 --> 2:31:03.880 she was a did brutal suppression of protests around the 2:31:03.920 --> 2:31:10.199 Mushroom Kingdom. So David Broader, author of Mussolini's Grandchildren, Fascism 2:31:10.200 --> 2:31:13.920 and Contemporary Italy, wrote in Political Europe Get funny. It's 2:31:14.560 --> 2:31:17.640 very different take from Political Europe and this one uh quote. 2:31:17.760 --> 2:31:21.360 Milani owes much more to the moderate forces in what 2:31:21.440 --> 2:31:26.360 Italians call the center right Alliance. They've allowed her the 2:31:26.360 --> 2:31:30.359 opportunity to present herself as part of the main stream, 2:31:30.400 --> 2:31:33.760 not just because she's been softening her policies, at least 2:31:33.760 --> 2:31:37.680 in presentation, but also because the center right politicians jumping 2:31:37.680 --> 2:31:39.840 on her bandwag and has given her of an ear 2:31:39.920 --> 2:31:43.640 of respectability and credibility. Um. You can see this in 2:31:43.840 --> 2:31:48.520 Super Passionate Most Brawl, when Warrio shows up a biker outfit, 2:31:48.680 --> 2:31:51.880 not wearing the regular Italian uniform and they just let 2:31:52.040 --> 2:31:55.400 him play like Mario Luigi are wearing their proper outfit 2:31:55.720 --> 2:31:57.840 and Warrior just like showed up in like like a 2:31:57.920 --> 2:32:01.000 leather jacket and like ripped shorts. That's not okay, but 2:32:01.160 --> 2:32:05.119 it gave him the veneer of respectability because others allowed 2:32:05.120 --> 2:32:06.920 it to take place. Kind of the kind of the 2:32:06.920 --> 2:32:10.400 same thing here with Milani. At the same time, attempts 2:32:10.840 --> 2:32:13.480 by the main like center left rivals to make the 2:32:13.520 --> 2:32:17.440 election about this kind of ghost of fascism uh spreading 2:32:17.440 --> 2:32:20.800 again through Milani, have proved unsuccessful. Voters by enlarged and 2:32:20.920 --> 2:32:23.920 did not buy the narrative kind of that that the 2:32:23.959 --> 2:32:26.640 left was trying to push that Melani was this reincarnation 2:32:26.640 --> 2:32:29.640 of fascism. They just it just that that they were not. 2:32:30.080 --> 2:32:32.720 They were not convinced enough to affect the election results 2:32:32.760 --> 2:32:36.119 in an in any meaningful way. Um same way, Nintendo 2:32:36.160 --> 2:32:38.840 is not convinced that putting Walluiji in the new Smash Bros. 2:32:38.879 --> 2:32:42.520 Will actually lead to more people buying the game. Italian 2:32:42.640 --> 2:32:46.720 essayist Roberto Slavinio wrote, quote, the far right can succeed 2:32:46.760 --> 2:32:50.120 in Italy because the left has failed, exactly as in 2:32:50.240 --> 2:32:54.000 much of the world, to offer credible visions or strategies. 2:32:54.280 --> 2:32:57.280 The left asks people to vote against the right, but 2:32:57.400 --> 2:33:00.080 it lacks the political vision or an economic alternative of 2:33:00.520 --> 2:33:02.240 And I think these are all the kind of factors 2:33:02.280 --> 2:33:05.879 that actually led Milani to win this election. Should we 2:33:05.920 --> 2:33:08.320 talk a little bit about the sort of democratic party 2:33:08.360 --> 2:33:12.480 like five Star Alliance things that happen. Sure, if you 2:33:12.480 --> 2:33:15.360 can want to do like TLDR on that that would 2:33:15.400 --> 2:33:19.280 be great. So alright, long ago, in a galaxy far 2:33:19.320 --> 2:33:21.600 far away, Italy had a very very large and powerful 2:33:21.680 --> 2:33:24.680 left um and then when the Soviet Union fell so 2:33:24.720 --> 2:33:27.200 that they had the Communist Party. The Comunist Party was 2:33:27.760 --> 2:33:29.760 like one of the most powerful comunist parties in the world. 2:33:29.840 --> 2:33:33.000 That wasn't like a sort of like dicutorial ruling party. 2:33:33.040 --> 2:33:36.000 But when the Soviet like when the USSR felt it 2:33:36.080 --> 2:33:39.800 like voted dissolve itself basically became the Democratic Party and 2:33:39.920 --> 2:33:42.280 all of their sort of militants, like much of the 2:33:42.320 --> 2:33:45.680 militants basically turned into Libs and you know, I mean 2:33:45.680 --> 2:33:48.160 and the Italian left like how together for kind of 2:33:48.200 --> 2:33:50.440 a long time after that because they had you know, 2:33:50.600 --> 2:33:52.840 there's there's a very long tradition to sort of an 2:33:52.840 --> 2:33:56.879 extra parliamentary left and like tartically an anarchist left in Italy, 2:33:57.080 --> 2:34:00.920 but like the modern I don't know, it's kind of 2:34:00.920 --> 2:34:03.320 a ship show, like in terms of actual party politics, 2:34:03.400 --> 2:34:05.360 Like there's a there was this thing called the Five 2:34:05.400 --> 2:34:10.440 Stars Movements, which was like kind of like basically Astro 2:34:10.560 --> 2:34:14.119 Turf by Abilionaire. It was just like very weird, very 2:34:14.160 --> 2:34:18.760 like early two thousand tens party that was like doing 2:34:18.840 --> 2:34:20.640 the whole sort of like we're going to do direct 2:34:20.640 --> 2:34:23.400 democracy by like online polls things. It has just like 2:34:23.879 --> 2:34:27.800 really weird mishmasch like the main social Democratic for us. Yeah, 2:34:27.840 --> 2:34:30.120 well it's also sort of but like they're very weird, 2:34:30.240 --> 2:34:32.240 like like I don't know, you'll get things from them 2:34:32.280 --> 2:34:34.280 like okay, we want like like they're they're not a 2:34:34.320 --> 2:34:36.480 normal social democratic party right there, closing to like the 2:34:36.480 --> 2:34:40.039 Pirate Party, but like way weirder. Like so you you'll 2:34:40.040 --> 2:34:42.080 you'll you'll get people in this party who are like 2:34:42.280 --> 2:34:43.720 you know, who who were who are like you know, 2:34:43.760 --> 2:34:46.200 sort of like old school like like leftist militants, because 2:34:46.200 --> 2:34:47.920 this is where sort of like the energy was going right, 2:34:47.959 --> 2:34:50.720 but also like there's like anti vaxers in it. It 2:34:50.760 --> 2:34:52.720 was just it was just really weird iological like sort 2:34:52.720 --> 2:34:56.080 of mishmash. And then when they sort of got into power, 2:34:56.320 --> 2:34:58.120 like none of these people have ever been in politics before, 2:34:58.160 --> 2:35:00.640 and so like you know, you'd at someone who was 2:35:00.680 --> 2:35:03.000 like the head of garbage collection, right, who's from this 2:35:03.040 --> 2:35:05.360 party and they have no fucking idea how to collect garbage, right, 2:35:05.400 --> 2:35:08.040 And it was it's it's this real ship show because 2:35:08.040 --> 2:35:10.000 like you know, and then you have the Democratic Party, 2:35:10.000 --> 2:35:12.240 which are basically sort of just like lib hacks at 2:35:12.240 --> 2:35:14.920 this point. And this meant that, like you know, and 2:35:14.920 --> 2:35:17.320 they eventually sort of aligned with each other to try 2:35:17.360 --> 2:35:21.959 to keep like other like fascist basically like right wing 2:35:22.000 --> 2:35:24.920 groups out of power. But they like they also they 2:35:24.959 --> 2:35:27.200 also like had an alliance for a little bit with 2:35:28.320 --> 2:35:30.480 one of the right wing parties. It's it's an incredibly 2:35:30.959 --> 2:35:36.160 like bizarre story ends like honestly like deserves like its 2:35:36.200 --> 2:35:38.880 own episode one day. But yeah, yeah, they're they're very weird. 2:35:38.920 --> 2:35:42.440 They're not in effective left thing at all. They're just 2:35:43.879 --> 2:35:47.879 very very sort of like mishmash confused populist thing. And 2:35:47.920 --> 2:35:50.840 it didn't like they yeah, like they definitely did not 2:35:50.959 --> 2:35:54.480 sort of like succeed in preventing an alternative, etcetera, etcetera. 2:35:54.520 --> 2:35:58.600 It was, I don't know, kind of a disaster. Yeah, 2:35:58.840 --> 2:36:00.960 Italy's like it's worth noting as well. I think that 2:36:01.040 --> 2:36:04.400 like anti fascism is is sort of baked into the 2:36:04.600 --> 2:36:08.680 myth of the Italian Republic, right, like the that's what 2:36:08.760 --> 2:36:10.960 the republic rests are, that's where it comes from. That's 2:36:11.000 --> 2:36:15.400 creation myth. But like much in the same way as 2:36:15.400 --> 2:36:17.640 people living in the United States will be familiar with 2:36:17.640 --> 2:36:22.160 how these creation miss kind of lose all relevancy apart 2:36:22.200 --> 2:36:25.520 from some kind of totemic, meaning like their repetition has 2:36:25.600 --> 2:36:27.280 some kind of linked to that, but they don't really 2:36:27.280 --> 2:36:30.760 have any any value in the contemporary discourse in terms 2:36:30.800 --> 2:36:33.120 of animating and the way people act. I think you 2:36:33.120 --> 2:36:36.280 could say that that's happened in Italy, right, like people 2:36:36.959 --> 2:36:39.840 talk about people in institutions talk about anti fascism as 2:36:39.879 --> 2:36:42.440 where they come from and as foundational to it, LEAs democracy, 2:36:42.520 --> 2:36:45.280 but it's been so subsumed into structures of power that 2:36:45.440 --> 2:36:49.199 it that institutional discussion of anti fascism has lost its 2:36:49.240 --> 2:36:53.080 relevance from like the street fighting like anti fascism that 2:36:53.120 --> 2:36:55.600 created the republic in the first place, So that concept 2:36:55.680 --> 2:36:59.200 is kind of defanct along with like, Italian liberals have 2:36:59.360 --> 2:37:04.840 always walked hand in hand with like business interests and 2:37:05.240 --> 2:37:08.959 the right wing right, like from even previous to fascism, 2:37:09.600 --> 2:37:12.160 like there was a quote unquote liberal monarchy, right, So 2:37:12.200 --> 2:37:17.560 Italian liberalism isn't necessarily this anti authoritarian force. It was 2:37:17.600 --> 2:37:19.920 briefly like it got made to be briefly by the 2:37:20.000 --> 2:37:22.800 organized working class movement, but it hasn't been and it's 2:37:22.800 --> 2:37:26.160 going back to not being. Yeah, I mean, I think 2:37:26.160 --> 2:37:27.880 I now think we should may as well get into 2:37:28.040 --> 2:37:31.480 milanni Is actual like views and what she actually believes 2:37:31.480 --> 2:37:34.400 in the pauses, which you mean, what she actually believes 2:37:34.400 --> 2:37:37.560 in the bass is maybe slightly different things. Um, but 2:37:38.040 --> 2:37:42.080 we'll we'll, we'll at least at least start. So Milani's party, 2:37:42.240 --> 2:37:46.040 the Brothers of Italy party, was formed to quote carry 2:37:46.080 --> 2:37:50.640 forth the spirit and legacy unquote of the Italian Social 2:37:50.680 --> 2:37:55.840 Movement or the m s I the end, and the 2:37:55.840 --> 2:37:59.720 the m s I is the descendant of Mussolini's National 2:38:00.080 --> 2:38:03.160 Just Party. It's it's it's like a has a direct lineage. 2:38:03.959 --> 2:38:07.160 They even have the flame, right, they are still using 2:38:07.200 --> 2:38:11.160 the same logo, which is the flame on his tomb. 2:38:11.240 --> 2:38:15.280 I think that's where it comes from, right, Yeah, So, 2:38:16.120 --> 2:38:21.840 uh Melani has said that quote LGBT lobbies are out 2:38:21.879 --> 2:38:25.160 there to harm the women and and they're and they're 2:38:25.160 --> 2:38:30.280 attacking the family by destroying gender identity. Um. She's made 2:38:30.280 --> 2:38:36.880 statements about George Soros, calling him an international speculator. More 2:38:36.920 --> 2:38:41.120 on more on that. In the Saco uh he says 2:38:41.240 --> 2:38:46.160 that that that Soros finances global mass immigration, that thrends 2:38:46.200 --> 2:38:51.000 a great replacement of white, native born Italians. Um Melani 2:38:51.120 --> 2:38:56.119 shows affinity for other kind of authoritarian strong men, like 2:38:56.200 --> 2:39:00.520 the the the marine Lee pen who's the leader of 2:39:00.560 --> 2:39:06.840 the of the National Rally Party in France. Strong and 2:39:08.440 --> 2:39:11.840 that's an it's part of this section on strong men 2:39:12.320 --> 2:39:17.480 like political political strong men. She's she's she's previously supported 2:39:17.560 --> 2:39:22.920 as Joe Rogan taught me, Garrison strong times mega hard 2:39:23.000 --> 2:39:27.080 men and also what I've learned from Matt Well, she's 2:39:27.080 --> 2:39:31.000 what is a woman? So yeah, strong man. But like 2:39:31.040 --> 2:39:35.480 Milanni's previously supported Putin, although she's kind of lowered that 2:39:35.600 --> 2:39:40.400 enthusiasm since the invasion of Ukraine. She has she does 2:39:40.440 --> 2:39:43.760 have a pro Ukraine position on that publicly. Um but 2:39:43.879 --> 2:39:47.879 she's expressed kind of affinity for the types of other 2:39:47.920 --> 2:39:50.680 fascist leaders across Europe. We've see in Sweden, we've see 2:39:50.720 --> 2:39:53.119 in Poland, we've seen in Hungary. She's kind of aligned 2:39:53.120 --> 2:39:55.240 aligned herself with some of some of that kind of 2:39:55.280 --> 2:39:59.039 trend inside of Europe. Milanni wants to ban same sex 2:39:59.040 --> 2:40:02.600 couples from adopting children, and possibly dissolve the same sex 2:40:02.640 --> 2:40:05.480 couples legal parentage over the children that they've already adopted. 2:40:06.000 --> 2:40:09.480 Her party has sought to ban a cartoon featuring a 2:40:09.520 --> 2:40:13.000 bear with two mothers, arguing that kids should not be 2:40:13.120 --> 2:40:17.039 seeing same sex adoption as natural or normal because it's not. 2:40:17.760 --> 2:40:23.359 Um so basic kind of right wing censorship of materials 2:40:23.360 --> 2:40:25.640 that they don't like. I don't think children should be 2:40:25.720 --> 2:40:29.520 allowed to watch cartoons with bears in them. Okay, good 2:40:29.560 --> 2:40:32.400 for you. It is going to reduce their readiness when 2:40:32.480 --> 2:40:38.280 it becomes time to fight the bears. But Milanni also 2:40:38.280 --> 2:40:42.679 wants to ban gay Italians from traveling elsewhere for like surrogacy. 2:40:43.000 --> 2:40:45.200 Um so like so like they can't they can't leave 2:40:45.280 --> 2:40:48.760 the country to get to get like to have them 2:40:48.760 --> 2:40:51.920 become parents and return less. Like it's it's this, it's this, 2:40:52.040 --> 2:40:55.039 it's this whole whole thing. I'm gonna read a quote 2:40:55.080 --> 2:40:58.000 from Ruth bend Guite, a professor of history and Italian 2:40:58.000 --> 2:41:00.800 studies at New York University. Quote. Since twenty seventeen, she 2:41:00.800 --> 2:41:04.760 has tweeted repeatedly that Italian identity is being deliberately erased 2:41:04.760 --> 2:41:10.600 by globalists such as Soros and European Union officials, who 2:41:10.680 --> 2:41:17.240 have conspired to unleash quote uncontrollable mass migration. Um. So 2:41:17.440 --> 2:41:23.480 normal normal stuff there and more on so so in 2:41:23.480 --> 2:41:26.440 in a in a speech, in a few speeches, and repeatedly, 2:41:26.959 --> 2:41:31.440 she refers to financial speculators and has called people like 2:41:31.480 --> 2:41:37.280 George Soros an international speculator. Um. And you know when 2:41:37.080 --> 2:41:41.400 when she says, uh, financial speculators, I don't think she 2:41:41.480 --> 2:41:45.520 actually means just people who speculated about finances. I think 2:41:45.560 --> 2:41:49.600 she means something slightly different. Michael bench Laws, who is 2:41:50.240 --> 2:41:54.720 kind of history political person who works for NBC MSNBC PPS, 2:41:54.800 --> 2:41:58.879 had a really good, uh thread on on this, and 2:41:58.920 --> 2:42:01.200 I think it's important like this, this is a mainstream 2:42:01.440 --> 2:42:05.160 media guy, like this is not coming from antifa one 2:42:05.240 --> 2:42:08.440 six one on Twitter. This is like coming from like 2:42:08.440 --> 2:42:10.760 like in terms of like mainstream media actually talking about this. 2:42:11.200 --> 2:42:14.720 Uh quote the new Italian Prime Minister says that quote 2:42:14.760 --> 2:42:17.800 we will never be slaves at the mercy of financial 2:42:17.879 --> 2:42:22.359 speculators sounds just like nineteen thirties in Italy and Germany. 2:42:22.800 --> 2:42:26.680 Uh No, thanks for the memories Mussolini enjoyed publicly referring 2:42:26.680 --> 2:42:30.359 to Jewish people as financial speculators who needed to be controlled. 2:42:30.680 --> 2:42:32.880 When a fascist leader speaks, whether it be in Europe 2:42:32.959 --> 2:42:36.440 or America, never brush aside what you are hearing as 2:42:36.520 --> 2:42:39.840 meaningless rhetoric. Do not fail to learn from the history 2:42:39.920 --> 2:42:43.960 of the nineteen thirties. History of the nineteen shows us 2:42:43.959 --> 2:42:46.119 that fascist leaders in the United States have been very 2:42:46.160 --> 2:42:49.840 eager to link US and pool resources, often in secret, 2:42:50.080 --> 2:42:53.880 with fascist leaders in Europe. Monitor carefully and beware, and 2:42:53.959 --> 2:42:57.040 please never take it at face value. When and if 2:42:57.160 --> 2:43:00.160 fascist leaders in America and Europe tell you that they 2:43:00.160 --> 2:43:03.640 have no personal or political animists towards Jews or other 2:43:03.680 --> 2:43:07.640 minority groups in society. Too many examples in history tells 2:43:07.840 --> 2:43:12.200 us the opposite, unquote. So that is like you know, 2:43:12.800 --> 2:43:16.520 regular MSNBC NBC people being like, hey, when she says 2:43:16.560 --> 2:43:20.280 this thing, she needs Jews should should should. We also 2:43:20.320 --> 2:43:24.000 talk about like the way parts of like the left 2:43:24.000 --> 2:43:25.680 on Twitter reacted to this, and also the sort of 2:43:25.720 --> 2:43:28.400 history of like how some people were like, oh wow, 2:43:28.440 --> 2:43:33.720 she's calling out the capitalists. That's not a lot of 2:43:33.720 --> 2:43:35.280 this is like you guys are maybe the dogs people 2:43:35.280 --> 2:43:38.520 who have ever lived Like she immediately like acts the 2:43:39.000 --> 2:43:41.360 I know she like this is the same thing we 2:43:41.400 --> 2:43:45.200 see with people like like Dugan even right what she's saying, 2:43:45.440 --> 2:43:48.680 she she's not saying that, you know, international capital is 2:43:48.720 --> 2:43:52.160 bad because it hurts the poor people or workers. She's 2:43:52.200 --> 2:43:55.480 she's mad about it because it's because it's a threat 2:43:55.600 --> 2:43:58.920 to traditional identities. It's it's it's it's a threat to 2:43:59.760 --> 2:44:03.279 the way that you want, the the idea of the family, 2:44:03.760 --> 2:44:06.080 it's the way it's it's it's it's threatening all of 2:44:06.080 --> 2:44:10.360 these things that are about your like God, family, country, brotherhood, ship. 2:44:10.400 --> 2:44:13.680 It's not about actual poor people, working class people at all. 2:44:13.720 --> 2:44:15.920 That's not that's not what it is. It's it's not 2:44:16.000 --> 2:44:19.920 a good criticism of capitalist modernity, just to just to 2:44:20.000 --> 2:44:25.680 propose another form of more like authoritarian capitalist modernity. It's 2:44:25.800 --> 2:44:29.520 it's it's it's not. It's not good. Um. The original 2:44:29.560 --> 2:44:32.720 fascists in Italy did the same thing when they denounced 2:44:32.720 --> 2:44:37.120 like British um placrats. It's just it's it's not, it's 2:44:37.160 --> 2:44:41.080 not the it's not a good critique of capitalists. So well, 2:44:41.200 --> 2:44:43.360 and we should point out to that. Like like so 2:44:43.480 --> 2:44:48.480 Mateo Savini, who was like the former like basically until 2:44:48.480 --> 2:44:50.280 the selection, he was like the guy he was in 2:44:50.320 --> 2:44:52.119 charge of the right wing. Like he he's a guy 2:44:52.160 --> 2:44:54.720 who got like arrested basically for trying to sink a 2:44:54.760 --> 2:44:58.879 migrant boat. Like so that's actually these guys he sucks 2:44:58.959 --> 2:45:01.320 um and but she she do this like more explicitly 2:45:01.400 --> 2:45:04.200 he would, you know, like specifically used Marxist terminology to 2:45:04.200 --> 2:45:06.160 push right wing stuff. So he he had a speech 2:45:06.200 --> 2:45:08.920 where he talked about like the reserve army of labor, 2:45:08.959 --> 2:45:12.160 which is this concept of Marxism that's about like basically 2:45:12.879 --> 2:45:15.680 Mark Marx is arguing that like like capitalism inherently produces 2:45:15.720 --> 2:45:18.000 this like quote unquote like reserve army of labor, like 2:45:18.040 --> 2:45:20.879 industrial army of labor, which is like an enormous mass 2:45:20.920 --> 2:45:22.760 of people who are unemployed. You've been spit out of 2:45:22.760 --> 2:45:25.959 the labor process, and you know, okay, and like and 2:45:25.959 --> 2:45:30.400 and and and like Mark Marx is like Marx is 2:45:30.480 --> 2:45:33.520 pro these people, which is a very important thing. He's like, 2:45:33.560 --> 2:45:35.240 these people are part of the poletariat, but they've been 2:45:35.240 --> 2:45:37.760 spit out of like like the capital wage relation to 2:45:37.760 --> 2:45:40.600 spit them out, and they're, yeah, they're they're they're they're 2:45:40.640 --> 2:45:43.440 to sort of like regulate like wages stuff happens. But 2:45:43.480 --> 2:45:45.480 also there people who have just been sort of like disenfranchised, 2:45:45.520 --> 2:45:48.400 et etcetera. Salvini when he talks about the reserve army 2:45:48.400 --> 2:45:50.920 of labor specifically, is like, there is a reserve army 2:45:50.959 --> 2:45:54.200 of labor. Uh. These people are immigrants to North Africa 2:45:54.320 --> 2:45:56.680 and like the like the elites are like shipping these 2:45:56.680 --> 2:46:00.080 people into Italy to like destroy your jobs. And it 2:46:00.360 --> 2:46:02.760 is it is again very very important that you understand. 2:46:02.840 --> 2:46:04.959 This is what he like when he's using the marks term, 2:46:05.040 --> 2:46:08.360 he is using it. He is using it marks racism 2:46:08.360 --> 2:46:13.480 and not like Mark's anti capitalism, and you need to 2:46:13.520 --> 2:46:15.160 be able to tell what difference between these two things, 2:46:15.280 --> 2:46:17.720 because yeah, like especially in time Poults like this, this 2:46:17.760 --> 2:46:20.360 is the thing that happens. Like people people will use 2:46:20.840 --> 2:46:23.560 like even literally explicitly stuff that is from Marx but 2:46:23.600 --> 2:46:25.280 they will use it to be like we need to 2:46:25.320 --> 2:46:28.760 like machine gun every like boat of small children trying 2:46:28.800 --> 2:46:33.199 to free Libya. Like it's like cherry yeah, cherry picking 2:46:33.240 --> 2:46:35.880 these these bits of Marxism and the arranging them into 2:46:35.920 --> 2:46:39.160 a racist as fun college that you used to justify 2:46:39.200 --> 2:46:42.560 your bagotry. It's fashion. It did that the first time, 2:46:42.640 --> 2:46:46.480 it's doing it again then. And the other thing that 2:46:46.560 --> 2:46:49.360 kind of that's that's notable. In case people have not 2:46:49.480 --> 2:46:53.000 have not seen it, There's been h lots of video 2:46:53.240 --> 2:46:59.800 going around of of Melani openly praising um Mussolini, saying, quote, 2:47:00.040 --> 2:47:02.320 I believe Musolini was a good politician. Everything he did 2:47:02.360 --> 2:47:04.640 he did for Italy and there have been no other 2:47:04.680 --> 2:47:07.760 politicians like him in the past fifty years that now 2:47:07.920 --> 2:47:11.039 these interviews all come from the mid nineties. She has 2:47:11.200 --> 2:47:17.080 since said that her opinions on Mussolini have changed. She 2:47:17.200 --> 2:47:19.720 has nuts she has not said what her opinions have 2:47:19.840 --> 2:47:27.440 changed to she changed, but this was. This was. These 2:47:27.480 --> 2:47:31.320 interviews all come from when she was when she was 2:47:31.360 --> 2:47:35.840 a young plucky girl getting into the Boy's Nazi club 2:47:36.520 --> 2:47:39.240 of and leading the youth wing of a fascist party 2:47:39.280 --> 2:47:43.760 founded by veterans of Musolini's dictatorship. UM. Since since her 2:47:43.800 --> 2:47:45.840 her own modern party, the Brothers of Italy, which was 2:47:45.840 --> 2:47:49.640 again started emerged from the fascist National Alliance, which grew 2:47:49.680 --> 2:47:52.800 out of the Italian Social Movement, which was founded by 2:47:52.920 --> 2:47:56.600 Mussolini regime officials UM, and she still uses the same 2:47:56.760 --> 2:48:02.320 logo for her current Mario Luigian Sorry, Brothers of Belief Party. UM. 2:48:02.320 --> 2:48:05.280 So yeah, let's have let's have one more ad break 2:48:05.320 --> 2:48:07.360 and then we'll talk about how mainstream media has been 2:48:07.400 --> 2:48:15.520 talking about the new girl Boss Mussolini and we are back. 2:48:15.680 --> 2:48:18.840 Oh I'm so excited. I'm so excited. So we're actually 2:48:18.879 --> 2:48:23.199 gonna talk. I'm first gonna read some stuff from the intercept, 2:48:23.400 --> 2:48:25.439 just not I would not say is actually a mainstream 2:48:25.520 --> 2:48:27.480 media It's a little bit outside of that, but it 2:48:27.560 --> 2:48:29.920 sets a good stage for the rest of the stuff 2:48:29.920 --> 2:48:32.320 that we will be talking about, which actually is dealing 2:48:32.400 --> 2:48:36.800 with how mainstream media has been framing UM. Milanni's election. 2:48:36.959 --> 2:48:40.720 So quote, the media got this right much of the time, 2:48:40.840 --> 2:48:45.000 giving predominant building to Melanie's fall right nationalism, but numerous 2:48:45.080 --> 2:48:49.400 English language headlines focused solely on her being Italy's first 2:48:49.520 --> 2:48:52.760 woman prime minister. Is tempting to say that her position 2:48:52.800 --> 2:48:55.920 as a woman leader should be considered irrelevant given her 2:48:55.920 --> 2:49:00.000 and her party's vile anti immigrant, nationalist, racist, anti LGBT 2:49:00.000 --> 2:49:03.160 e Q plus policies, but ignoring her womanhood misses some 2:49:03.200 --> 2:49:07.040 crucial points about her political ideology. Being a woman, a 2:49:07.040 --> 2:49:11.480 white woman that is, is not in conflict with Milanni's fascism. 2:49:11.720 --> 2:49:15.400 White supremacy has always relied on active enforcement by white women, 2:49:15.560 --> 2:49:20.080 especially when it comes to upholding racist, po nationalist narratives. 2:49:20.879 --> 2:49:24.240 So yeah, I think that that's that's that's a good 2:49:24.240 --> 2:49:28.120 stage for kind of how every other headline and article 2:49:28.160 --> 2:49:31.959 we're going to talk about here. Let's start with The Guardian. 2:49:32.440 --> 2:49:34.640 The Guardian ran a piece saying, quote, the election of 2:49:34.680 --> 2:49:39.160 Italy's fascist adjacent Georgia Milani is a public reminder that 2:49:39.200 --> 2:49:45.760 women can be just as awful as men. That's a 2:49:45.800 --> 2:49:49.119 good headline. And this was was this was the Guardian US, 2:49:49.200 --> 2:49:54.880 the Guardian UK. This was Guardian UK. Yeah, fashionis and 2:49:55.360 --> 2:50:00.000 this and this article and this, this article is actually 2:50:00.120 --> 2:50:05.359 directly in opposition to Australia's a sky News headline Georgia 2:50:05.440 --> 2:50:08.640 Milani is not a fascist. Um this is this is 2:50:10.720 --> 2:50:14.120 just directly in opposition to this Sky News article, which 2:50:14.160 --> 2:50:18.200 is kind of funny. Um uh NPRS Morning edition went 2:50:18.240 --> 2:50:21.000 with quote a far right group with neo fascist roots 2:50:21.120 --> 2:50:25.840 wins big in Italy's election. Um A CBS Mornings host said, 2:50:25.879 --> 2:50:30.160 Milani rejects the label of fascism while embracing its symbols, 2:50:30.760 --> 2:50:34.879 just its symbols, just you know, like they were specifally 2:50:34.920 --> 2:50:37.280 talking about like the actual like iconography that they directly 2:50:37.360 --> 2:50:40.840 left like this, like the slogans like brotherhood, God, country 2:50:40.959 --> 2:50:43.760 type things, and like like the logo and it's it 2:50:43.840 --> 2:50:47.760 was part actually part of a larger thing around around fascism. Look, 2:50:47.800 --> 2:50:49.320 we'll actually get a bit more into that on our 2:50:49.360 --> 2:50:54.720 Tucker Carlson's section. Oh good. The Washington Post headlined quote, 2:50:54.920 --> 2:50:59.360 the mainstreaming of the West's far right is complete, and 2:50:59.400 --> 2:51:03.560 then opened article was saying in the land that invented fascism, 2:51:03.760 --> 2:51:07.039 the far right is back in power. Milani has a 2:51:07.120 --> 2:51:10.760 lengthy record of extremist rhetoric, has embraced the white supremacist 2:51:10.840 --> 2:51:14.000 narrative of the great Replacement theory, and has engaged in 2:51:14.160 --> 2:51:18.440 frequent dog whistling to a radical base. The Atlantic had 2:51:18.520 --> 2:51:22.520 a good piece titled the Return of Fascism in Italy 2:51:23.240 --> 2:51:26.480 um saying that the Brothers of Italy, which Milanni has 2:51:26.560 --> 2:51:31.320 led sin has an underlying and sinister familiarity. The party 2:51:31.360 --> 2:51:34.360 formed a decade ago to carry on the spirit and 2:51:34.440 --> 2:51:37.360 legacy of the extreme right in Italy, which dates back 2:51:37.360 --> 2:51:40.080 to the Italian Social Movement, the party that formed in 2:51:40.160 --> 2:51:42.840 place of the National Fascist Party, which was banned after 2:51:42.879 --> 2:51:45.840 World War Two. Now, just weeks before the one hundredth 2:51:45.879 --> 2:51:49.800 anniversary of the March on Rome, the October nineteen event 2:51:49.840 --> 2:51:53.199 that put Musolini in power, Italy may have a former 2:51:53.840 --> 2:51:57.320 Italian Social Movement activist for its prime minister and a 2:51:57.400 --> 2:52:02.440 government rooted in fascism. So that's like overall, there was 2:52:02.480 --> 2:52:05.320 a lot of really good Like most of the of 2:52:05.360 --> 2:52:08.560 the extremely reference or viral kind of articles on this 2:52:08.920 --> 2:52:13.000 had decent headlines and decent content actually emphasizing the fascist nature. 2:52:13.560 --> 2:52:15.840 Now it's funny because the Atlantic had this return of 2:52:15.840 --> 2:52:19.320 Fascism in Italy one, but The Atlantic also ran an 2:52:19.320 --> 2:52:23.879 op ed piece titled Melanie's election win is not a 2:52:23.959 --> 2:52:28.800 vote for Fascism, which later changed its title to Italians 2:52:28.879 --> 2:52:33.640 didn't exactly vote for fascism Um, which to its credit, 2:52:33.800 --> 2:52:37.800 still discusses uh Melani's links to fascism, but it questioned 2:52:37.840 --> 2:52:40.920 how much power she actually will have to enact said 2:52:40.959 --> 2:52:45.360 fascism um. But so there was there was some like 2:52:45.400 --> 2:52:48.200 both sides and going on on some A lot of 2:52:48.200 --> 2:52:50.480 these news outlets, they'll put one up, they'll put one 2:52:50.480 --> 2:52:53.800 piece out that's actually very good about centering the fascist rhetoric, 2:52:53.959 --> 2:52:57.480 another one being like she may be a fascist, but 2:52:57.480 --> 2:53:00.280 it's not like she could do much and she's a woman. Yeah, 2:53:01.560 --> 2:53:04.320 I think this is kind of like I think, I 2:53:04.320 --> 2:53:06.000 think it's just kind of a post J six thing. 2:53:06.640 --> 2:53:10.320 Like I I think if this had happened in I 2:53:10.360 --> 2:53:12.240 don't think the LA media would have been like as 2:53:12.320 --> 2:53:15.640 willing to just do this. Absolutely that is that is 2:53:15.760 --> 2:53:18.360 undoubtedly true. Um. I think I think they kind of, 2:53:18.400 --> 2:53:21.280 like like liberals in general, kind of were shaking out 2:53:21.280 --> 2:53:23.760 of their complacency when they're sort of like beautiful symbols 2:53:23.760 --> 2:53:26.160 were under like finally actually came under attack and not 2:53:26.280 --> 2:53:33.880 just like US. Routers ran a confusing headline titled nationalist 2:53:33.920 --> 2:53:38.480 Milani set to smash Italy's glass Sea leg and become premier, 2:53:38.840 --> 2:53:44.760 which is really it just sounds super weird. Nationalist Milandy 2:53:44.879 --> 2:53:48.160 smashes glass Sea like it's just like it's like, yeah, 2:53:48.400 --> 2:53:53.879 I guess the cos it's it's what. That was one 2:53:53.920 --> 2:53:56.800 of the weirder headlines because it still has nationalists in it, 2:53:57.080 --> 2:53:59.120 but it has the whole glass stealing bit, which is 2:53:59.160 --> 2:54:04.480 just like I There was another Guardian UK piece uh 2:54:04.720 --> 2:54:08.840 that had the headline uh at Italy's Georgia Melani is 2:54:08.879 --> 2:54:12.800 no Mussolini, but she may be a Trump, which is 2:54:12.879 --> 2:54:17.320 an interesting article. Um it It has some a lot 2:54:17.360 --> 2:54:20.400 of it's actually pretty reasonable h and it emphasizes her 2:54:20.520 --> 2:54:23.440 more recent comments trying to align herself more with the 2:54:23.520 --> 2:54:26.960 modern US Republican Party rather than any kind of form 2:54:26.959 --> 2:54:32.039 of nineteen thirties style fascism. Quote hawkish on foreign policies, 2:54:32.160 --> 2:54:36.960 orthodox on economic policies, nostalgic nationalists, and inimical to civil liberties. 2:54:37.320 --> 2:54:41.360 This right wing politics is illiberal at heart, but it 2:54:41.400 --> 2:54:44.240 would aim for respectability in what used to be called 2:54:44.360 --> 2:54:48.480 the establishment, including by not undermining the rule of law 2:54:48.800 --> 2:54:52.640 in the way that Hungarian Prime Minister Victor Orban has 2:54:52.680 --> 2:54:57.240 done unquote. So there's it kind of I do like 2:54:57.400 --> 2:55:02.480 the there is some things that are worth we're thinking 2:55:02.480 --> 2:55:04.959 about in terms of how she has a lot in 2:55:05.000 --> 2:55:08.480 the past year tried to align herself more with the 2:55:08.520 --> 2:55:14.320 Modern Republican Party in the States, which still is as 2:55:14.320 --> 2:55:16.600 we discussed the show, a lot is kind of getting 2:55:16.640 --> 2:55:20.160 more fashion I would say, so, so I will say 2:55:20.160 --> 2:55:21.400 it is has I don't know if you're gonna talk 2:55:21.400 --> 2:55:23.680 about this, but it has been very funny. She managed 2:55:23.680 --> 2:55:27.160 to sort of like lose like the like really hardline 2:55:27.680 --> 2:55:30.160 like American right wingers because she did some sort of 2:55:30.200 --> 2:55:33.039 like pronato ee things and so now there's like like 2:55:33.040 --> 2:55:34.880 so like like Snovich and a whole bunch of other 2:55:34.879 --> 2:55:37.120 people like that were posting about how like she's like 2:55:37.160 --> 2:55:41.160 an op and she was part of some I don't remember. 2:55:41.240 --> 2:55:44.000 I don't even I don't. I don't even think even 2:55:44.000 --> 2:55:46.480 believes that because I don't, I don't. I've seen much 2:55:46.560 --> 2:55:49.119 more people be very enthusiastic about her than people being 2:55:49.120 --> 2:55:51.480 critical of her who are on the fashionst rite in 2:55:51.520 --> 2:55:53.520 the States. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, like there's 2:55:53.640 --> 2:55:56.039 there's definitely was especially like there's a whole thing about 2:55:56.040 --> 2:55:58.480 her being like remember the Aspen Institute, but I think 2:55:58.600 --> 2:56:00.280 was happening for like I don't know, may maybe that 2:56:00.320 --> 2:56:03.560 maybe that's just a thing like right after she got 2:56:03.000 --> 2:56:06.800 like I don't I don't know, I mean on kind 2:56:06.800 --> 2:56:08.760 of on this note of of her trying to align 2:56:08.920 --> 2:56:13.400 more with like modern United States conservatism. UM. In one 2:56:13.440 --> 2:56:17.560 of their newsletters, Politico included that Milani has appeared at 2:56:17.720 --> 2:56:20.800 see Pack this past year on the National Prayer Breakfast 2:56:21.280 --> 2:56:24.720 and uh and it did did join the Aspen Institute 2:56:24.720 --> 2:56:29.119 in but she and Steve Bannon were films strategizing together 2:56:29.200 --> 2:56:33.160 as far back and Bannon instead of her back then 2:56:33.280 --> 2:56:36.800 quote you put a reasonable face on right wing populism, 2:56:37.080 --> 2:56:41.520 you will get elected. Um. So her and Bannon have 2:56:41.600 --> 2:56:45.960 been strategizing for years. She's at Sepack. Uh. This past year, 2:56:46.000 --> 2:56:48.960 she gave a speech there that Tucker was very enthusiastic about. 2:56:48.959 --> 2:56:52.440 In his segment about her. That political newsletter that included 2:56:52.440 --> 2:56:55.119 the bits about Bannon and Spack also had I think 2:56:55.160 --> 2:56:58.280 this line, which sums up some of my thoughts on 2:56:58.320 --> 2:57:01.080 this quote you've already read and in dozens of headlines 2:57:01.080 --> 2:57:04.240 that Milani will be Italy's most far right leader since Miscellani. 2:57:04.600 --> 2:57:06.800 But don't fall for the trap of reducing this far 2:57:06.879 --> 2:57:10.640 right firebrand too simple labels like the Italian Donald Trump, 2:57:10.760 --> 2:57:14.160 or Victor or band or Marine le pen global takeaway. 2:57:14.600 --> 2:57:17.760 Right wing populism is getting smarter. It could have died 2:57:17.800 --> 2:57:21.920 off with Trump selection lass or Boris Johnson's humiliating ejection 2:57:22.040 --> 2:57:28.120 from Downing Street, but that isn't happening. So I have 2:57:28.200 --> 2:57:29.760 I have a few more of a few more things 2:57:29.760 --> 2:57:31.960 here which will lead into kind of how the right 2:57:32.040 --> 2:57:35.240 has been talking about this um. There was a scene. 2:57:35.640 --> 2:57:37.200 There was a scene an article on the victory that 2:57:37.240 --> 2:57:41.680 headlined the conditions are perfect for a populist resurgence in Europe, 2:57:42.200 --> 2:57:46.760 which also referenced the anti immigration Sweden Democrats, who are 2:57:46.760 --> 2:57:49.320 expected to play a major role in the new government 2:57:49.320 --> 2:57:51.680 after winning the second largest share of seats in the 2:57:51.720 --> 2:57:55.240 general election last month. The party has been now mainstreamed 2:57:55.320 --> 2:57:59.640 and initially had its roots in very strict neo Nazism. 2:57:59.680 --> 2:58:01.560 Over All, I was less happy with some of the 2:58:01.600 --> 2:58:05.840 New York Times headlines relating to Milanni's election. There was 2:58:05.920 --> 2:58:09.800 there was the the cheeky headline Georgia Milani is extreme, 2:58:09.920 --> 2:58:15.160 but she's no tyrant, which is of again a weird 2:58:15.200 --> 2:58:18.279 way to frame a headline. Um but even that peace 2:58:18.520 --> 2:58:23.400 still opens with this line saying, quote, it happened here again. 2:58:23.560 --> 2:58:26.119 Nearly one hundred years since the March on Rome, Italy 2:58:26.240 --> 2:58:29.200 on Sunday voted in a right wing coalition headed by 2:58:29.280 --> 2:58:33.760 a party directly descended from Mussolini's fascist regime. Mrs Milani 2:58:34.040 --> 2:58:37.119 is the first post fascist leader to win a national 2:58:37.160 --> 2:58:40.160 election in Italy after World War Two, and her party 2:58:40.280 --> 2:58:43.320 is the heir to the Italian Social Movement, the reincarnation 2:58:43.400 --> 2:58:47.200 of the long dissolved and constitutionally banned Fascist party. So 2:58:48.120 --> 2:58:51.640 weird headline still it includes stuff in the article. But 2:58:52.160 --> 2:58:55.040 in the age of social media and honestly on news media, 2:58:55.160 --> 2:58:59.840 headlines are way more important. Unfortunately, um and there was 2:59:00.120 --> 2:59:02.640 an actual New York Times article, not just not just 2:59:02.720 --> 2:59:07.000 opinion piece have the headline Milani wins voting in Italy 2:59:07.440 --> 2:59:11.959 and breakthrough for Europe's hard right. Another Times piece read 2:59:12.240 --> 2:59:16.600 Europe looks at Italy's Milani with caution and trepidation. Uh 2:59:16.760 --> 2:59:20.039 Milani posed to be the country's first far right leader. 2:59:20.040 --> 2:59:24.720 Since Mussolini, so still not the worst, not the best 2:59:24.800 --> 2:59:27.520 from the New York Times, which you mean, no no 2:59:27.640 --> 2:59:31.200 shockers there. Um now on to kind of the right. 2:59:31.440 --> 2:59:35.240 So the right had a really big mix of reactions 2:59:35.280 --> 2:59:39.160 based on how the left was talking and liberals were 2:59:39.160 --> 2:59:41.840 talking about this. There was a lot of enthusiasm coming 2:59:41.840 --> 2:59:43.720 from the right. A lot of people on the right 2:59:44.080 --> 2:59:49.440 questioning the fascist framing, being like, I can't believe Megan. 2:59:49.560 --> 2:59:51.520 I mean we can talk about the Magan Bcayan tweet. 2:59:51.720 --> 2:59:55.279 Everyone wants a woman in power until it's the conservative power. 2:59:56.080 --> 2:59:59.960 This one right bart reporter said quote calling her most 3:00:00.000 --> 3:00:04.480 Salini just because she's Italian is racist, which is one 3:00:04.480 --> 3:00:06.840 of the best, one of the best tweets about this. 3:00:07.879 --> 3:00:12.160 Laverne Spicer said, so everyone calls Melania fascist? Can anyone 3:00:12.200 --> 3:00:14.520 offer proof of that? And most most of people just 3:00:14.560 --> 3:00:19.400 replied with videos of her praising Missolini. Um, yeah, will 3:00:19.440 --> 3:00:26.360 bang you for picture. Lauren Bobbert had the extremely bad 3:00:26.360 --> 3:00:30.359 tweet This month, Sweden voted for a right wing government. 3:00:30.760 --> 3:00:34.320 Now Italy voted for a strong right wing government. The 3:00:34.480 --> 3:00:38.160 entire world is beginning to understand that the woke left 3:00:38.600 --> 3:00:44.279 does nothing but destroy November eight, November eight is coming 3:00:44.720 --> 3:00:47.879 and the USA will fix our House and Senate. Let 3:00:47.920 --> 3:00:54.160 freedom rain Um, great, great prose there um just shouting 3:00:54.160 --> 3:00:56.800 at Cloud. But I I it is rush. It is 3:00:56.840 --> 3:01:00.240 actually super messed up to be praising Sweden's new wing 3:01:00.320 --> 3:01:04.720 government because they're pretty pretty bad. The Wall Street Journal 3:01:04.760 --> 3:01:08.039 had the great headline Milani is no fascist, but can 3:01:08.160 --> 3:01:13.920 she revive Italy's economy? Um? Yeah, that's that is perfect, 3:01:14.120 --> 3:01:19.760 That's that's the classic. Well, I'm very I'm very excited 3:01:19.840 --> 3:01:23.480 in about eight months when the Italian economy is like 3:01:23.840 --> 3:01:26.480 it makes the British economy look fucking great when the 3:01:27.200 --> 3:01:34.039 West there turnaround like can some other random persons save Italy? Yeah, 3:01:34.160 --> 3:01:37.160 like somebody further to the right, and they'll just continue 3:01:37.200 --> 3:01:39.240 to be like, well, maybe it's good for the economy. 3:01:39.400 --> 3:01:41.600 The economy I have running in my Super Mario RPG 3:01:41.800 --> 3:01:45.280 game is better than the current UK economy. So again, 3:01:45.320 --> 3:01:47.720 it's not saying more on that, right. A Fox News 3:01:47.720 --> 3:01:50.199 headline in the lead up to the election read Italy 3:01:50.240 --> 3:01:53.200 on track to elect first right wing prime minister since 3:01:53.240 --> 3:01:57.680 World War Two, first female to hold office. So I really, 3:01:57.720 --> 3:01:59.480 I really do that. This is one thing I really 3:01:59.520 --> 3:02:03.440 need to get keep people on, like, is fucking Sylvia 3:02:03.440 --> 3:02:06.400 Berlisconi a joke to you? Like the answer should be yes, 3:02:06.440 --> 3:02:11.160 but also like come on man like forever. A few 3:02:11.240 --> 3:02:15.600 days later, another Fox headline read Milani's Italian election win 3:02:16.000 --> 3:02:23.520 renews spotlight on Europe's continued migrant woes. Great, great, great 3:02:23.560 --> 3:02:26.080 heading there, that's definitely what we should be focusing on. 3:02:26.560 --> 3:02:29.680 And so now onto a friend of the pod, Tucker Carlson. 3:02:29.840 --> 3:02:33.440 So on September twenty six, Tucker Carlson ran a fifteen 3:02:33.480 --> 3:02:38.120 minute segment titled we live in a fake democracy and 3:02:38.200 --> 3:02:44.280 there will be a revolution like Italy. So the segment 3:02:44.320 --> 3:02:46.640 was on the election of Milanni and how she's daring 3:02:46.760 --> 3:02:49.800 to address the issues that voters really care about but 3:02:49.920 --> 3:02:54.360 aren't allowed to talk about, like the attacks on the family, immigration, 3:02:54.920 --> 3:02:58.240 the unpopular climate change policies that are ruining the economy, 3:02:58.520 --> 3:03:02.240 aren't allowed to talk about. Bill Muscodi has literally been 3:03:02.240 --> 3:03:05.920 saying whatever the funk comes into his brain for like 3:03:06.080 --> 3:03:08.440 thirty years at this point. That was that was a 3:03:08.520 --> 3:03:11.240 big thing of the Tucker segment was that voters have 3:03:11.280 --> 3:03:13.120 all these issues they care about, but they're not allowed 3:03:13.160 --> 3:03:15.600 to talk about it. It's actually illegal in some places 3:03:15.640 --> 3:03:18.120 to talk about this. That's an actual quote from what 3:03:18.160 --> 3:03:22.040 he's there. Um And obviously Tucker offiscated her lings to 3:03:22.120 --> 3:03:25.960 Mussolini style fascism while still praising the fascist rhetoric that 3:03:26.000 --> 3:03:29.359 to Melania espouses. Here is a clip from the segment. 3:03:29.720 --> 3:03:32.200 She's not the first person to say this, people have 3:03:32.280 --> 3:03:36.440 said it before, but she's just been rewarded for saying it. 3:03:36.720 --> 3:03:39.840 That's the point. The population likes it. This is what 3:03:39.879 --> 3:03:43.000 they actually want. They're not that worried about global warming. 3:03:43.080 --> 3:03:45.600 They don't want open borders. They think the woke stuff 3:03:45.640 --> 3:03:49.680 is absurd. They want to say what they think. And 3:03:49.760 --> 3:03:53.800 now it's obvious because she just won. And so even 3:03:53.840 --> 3:03:56.800 in this country, the people running and benefiting from a 3:03:56.879 --> 3:04:00.840 deeply corrupt and doom system are hysterical. Watch the reaction 3:04:00.879 --> 3:04:04.000 to that. I want to start today by talking about 3:04:04.000 --> 3:04:05.800 a politician on the right who we should all be 3:04:05.840 --> 3:04:08.920 worried about, who's on the rise today, A politician who 3:04:08.959 --> 3:04:12.960 was brushed off accusations of fascism. What separates us from 3:04:13.080 --> 3:04:18.520 let's say, Italy who elected a fascist. She is from 3:04:18.600 --> 3:04:21.800 fascist Fruits, a far right political party whose roots go 3:04:21.879 --> 3:04:25.720 back to post World War two neo fascist party that 3:04:25.760 --> 3:04:31.800 has its roots in Italian fascism. It's roots in Italian fascism. 3:04:32.240 --> 3:04:35.039 Define that for us if you would. Joe Scarboro, sorry, 3:04:35.240 --> 3:04:38.440 you're an idiot, you can't. But the point is fascist 3:04:38.560 --> 3:04:41.879 means unacceptable. Whatever this chick is saying you're not allowed 3:04:41.920 --> 3:04:46.240 to agree with. They're very worried that that many Italians 3:04:46.320 --> 3:04:49.920 do agree with it, So she has to be completely unacceptable. 3:04:50.320 --> 3:04:55.320 Don't read further. She's a fascist. So yeah, that's that sucks, 3:04:55.360 --> 3:05:00.360 That's not great. Um I don't need to waste any 3:05:00.400 --> 3:05:02.960 more time talking about Tucker's segment because it's it's typical 3:05:03.000 --> 3:05:07.560 Tucker Carlson stuff, pretty fascistic, pretty awfu Durremberg at the 3:05:07.640 --> 3:05:12.279 end of every time. Anyway, um So yeah. Kind of 3:05:12.320 --> 3:05:15.520 the reaction was as one might expect. American right wing 3:05:15.600 --> 3:05:19.800 operatives have celebrated her rise to power. For example, Keith Robert's, 3:05:19.840 --> 3:05:22.560 head of the Heritage Foundation, drew on some of the 3:05:23.200 --> 3:05:27.959 familiar kind of language in terms of and I'll just 3:05:28.240 --> 3:05:30.119 I'll just say this. This is what he said about 3:05:30.120 --> 3:05:33.840 her victory on Twitter. This can be a trend. Conservatives 3:05:33.879 --> 3:05:36.480 everywhere need to define the choice as to what it 3:05:36.640 --> 3:05:43.080 is us versus them, everyday people versus globalst elites shown 3:05:43.360 --> 3:05:47.560 they hate us, so familiar dog whistles and ship. But 3:05:47.600 --> 3:05:49.840 to kind of close this up, I'm actually gonna do uh, 3:05:49.920 --> 3:05:53.480 I'm gonna do a Guy Debord quote, one of our 3:05:53.520 --> 3:05:55.920 favorite philosophers on this. Can we put a little French 3:05:56.000 --> 3:06:00.360 on it? Can we have Giva guid Bor quote? Yeah? 3:06:01.920 --> 3:06:05.640 So he he wrote the situations The Situation's phosopher wrote 3:06:05.640 --> 3:06:10.320 this in nineteen eight. Italy sums up the social contradictions 3:06:10.360 --> 3:06:14.200 of the entire world as such. It is a laboratory 3:06:14.600 --> 3:06:22.000 for international counter revolution. Um. So hilariously they held out 3:06:22.040 --> 3:06:25.680 longer than the French did. So well, what what What 3:06:25.720 --> 3:06:27.720 he's trying to say there is that it's a way 3:06:27.760 --> 3:06:31.879 to try out social change and try out the suppression 3:06:32.120 --> 3:06:35.440 of like progressive social change. Um. And it's like a 3:06:35.480 --> 3:06:39.039 model for the rest of Europe. Um. Like it's like 3:06:39.080 --> 3:06:42.520 it's it's this owns like miniature model that you can 3:06:42.560 --> 3:06:44.320 try out things and see how they'll react on a 3:06:44.560 --> 3:06:48.160 on a grounder European political scale. Um And kind of 3:06:48.280 --> 3:06:50.480 rough in in the in the vein of that, I'm 3:06:50.480 --> 3:06:52.840 actually gonna do a quote from one of the Washington 3:06:52.879 --> 3:06:56.560 post articles about what what what one of the better 3:06:56.640 --> 3:07:01.480 articles about Melani to kind of finish up the types 3:07:01.520 --> 3:07:04.039 of stuff that I wanted to talk about. So, if 3:07:04.040 --> 3:07:07.280 there's been one dominant story in Western politics over the 3:07:07.320 --> 3:07:10.720 past decade, it's that the far right is no longer 3:07:10.840 --> 3:07:14.400 beyond the pale. Indeed, it has taken over the right 3:07:14.440 --> 3:07:19.000 wing mainstream in many countries, including and arguably most significantly, 3:07:19.120 --> 3:07:22.240 the United States. In France, the far right has long 3:07:22.280 --> 3:07:25.240 been the leading force of the opposition. In Spain, it's 3:07:25.280 --> 3:07:29.080 also gained ground in Sweden, a party originally founded by 3:07:29.120 --> 3:07:31.640 Neo Nazis and other right wing extremists will now be 3:07:31.720 --> 3:07:35.320 the second largest faction in parliament. In Hungary and Poland, 3:07:35.400 --> 3:07:39.720 the far right is already in power. So just in 3:07:39.840 --> 3:07:44.840 terms of this overall trend of how people are trying 3:07:44.879 --> 3:07:47.720 to mainstream far right things and how they're getting more 3:07:47.760 --> 3:07:50.920 normalized across Europe in the United States here, and the 3:07:50.959 --> 3:07:53.960 types of asthetics that they're using to gain such ground. 3:07:54.040 --> 3:07:57.160 Because the Italian voters were not convinced by the left 3:07:57.200 --> 3:08:00.720 attempts to paint Melani as a reincarnation of Mussolini, the 3:08:00.760 --> 3:08:04.960 way that she wrapped her fascism in contemporary US style 3:08:05.000 --> 3:08:08.360 conservatism was convincing, and the left did not offer any 3:08:08.480 --> 3:08:11.520 viable alternatives to fix the problems that the country's facing. 3:08:11.800 --> 3:08:15.440 So she got the vote, which was enough to get 3:08:15.480 --> 3:08:18.320 a majority. So yeah, that's that's kind of That's most 3:08:18.320 --> 3:08:20.920 of the stuff I have on the Girl Boss Mussolini, 3:08:21.040 --> 3:08:25.360 Um any any other any other uh comments on how 3:08:25.400 --> 3:08:27.840 the rights been talking about this, how the liberals have 3:08:27.840 --> 3:08:30.280 been talking about this, how media has or any anything 3:08:30.320 --> 3:08:35.440 at all. Before we close up, no, I wish her 3:08:35.959 --> 3:08:40.760 the best of getting strung up in the street. It's 3:08:40.920 --> 3:08:44.080 very funny to turn pictures of her upisode down. People 3:08:44.080 --> 3:08:46.240 will tell you, Whi's not funny. It is funny, you know. 3:08:46.280 --> 3:08:49.480 I like the seed to be turning into the nant twenties, 3:08:49.520 --> 3:08:52.080 but like tragedy is farce version of it. But this 3:08:52.160 --> 3:08:55.920 means we can do it funnier. We can. We can 3:08:55.959 --> 3:08:58.720 do it funnier. We can all go to Italy wearing 3:08:58.760 --> 3:09:02.640 Mario costumes. That's right, we can we can do it. 3:09:02.680 --> 3:09:05.040 We can do it funnier. It's always possible to be 3:09:05.080 --> 3:09:10.080 more funny. M hmm, that's what we striful. So yeah, 3:09:10.200 --> 3:09:13.240 I'm still laughing about the Brothers of Italy thing. That's wow, 3:09:13.320 --> 3:09:19.519 that's pretty funny. Anyway, go have fun fighting anthropomorphic lizards 3:09:19.560 --> 3:09:23.440 who steal the princess and hang her in a cage 3:09:23.600 --> 3:09:26.080 and go race around the mushroom Kingdom on your way 3:09:26.120 --> 3:09:29.760 to save her with your brother. Is how I spend 3:09:29.800 --> 3:09:32.879 most of my free time in the mushroom Kingdom. In 3:09:32.920 --> 3:09:40.400 the mushroom Kingdom, jumping on lizards. Yeah, let's let's a 3:09:40.480 --> 3:09:58.880 go Hello and welcome to It could happen here a 3:09:58.920 --> 3:10:02.879 podcast about how everything is falling apart, and today we 3:10:02.920 --> 3:10:05.840 are talking about how the United Kingdom of Great Britain 3:10:05.879 --> 3:10:10.400 Northern Ireland is continuing to fall apart. And James, can 3:10:10.480 --> 3:10:14.840 I say, great job, nailed it, Thank you buddy, out 3:10:14.840 --> 3:10:21.280 of the park. You absolutely just stunning work introducing this podcast. Yeah, 3:10:21.640 --> 3:10:24.280 I've bought the level of commitment that British people have 3:10:24.360 --> 3:10:27.959 brought to governing half of the world for centuries. I 3:10:27.959 --> 3:10:30.640 have my coffee cup that says fuck it and that 3:10:30.840 --> 3:10:33.600 that's where we're at with this one. That's exactly what 3:10:33.640 --> 3:10:37.280 we wanted from you. Yeah, I'm incredibly sad about the 3:10:37.320 --> 3:10:39.959 plight of my home country and continue to be so 3:10:40.080 --> 3:10:43.520 that I'm going to explain the reason for my sadness 3:10:43.680 --> 3:10:48.800 to Garrison and Chris and Robert today one of one 3:10:48.800 --> 3:10:53.560 of the reasons for my sadness. Okay, so what I 3:10:53.560 --> 3:10:56.800 want to talk about today is Elizabeth trust list Trust. 3:10:56.920 --> 3:10:59.560 I want to talk about the British cost of living crisis, 3:11:00.080 --> 3:11:02.680 and I think more broadly, I want to talk about, 3:11:02.720 --> 3:11:07.040 like how we consent to be governed by people who 3:11:07.080 --> 3:11:11.240 do not give a single funk about our well being. Well, now, James, 3:11:11.280 --> 3:11:15.320 that's an experience that only the British have, So that's correct. Yeah, 3:11:15.800 --> 3:11:18.039 it's known to be not something that much of the 3:11:18.240 --> 3:11:23.600 colonial periphery experience for centuries, which he thought the monarchy 3:11:23.600 --> 3:11:28.240 away beat beat the monarchy Garrison. That's a bold we 3:11:28.480 --> 3:11:33.240 garrison from a Canadian. Yeah, that's right. Your people trying 3:11:33.280 --> 3:11:36.720 to stop it. Yeah, that's all we did was invade 3:11:36.760 --> 3:11:38.680 you a couple of times. I don't think you can 3:11:38.800 --> 3:11:42.200 sneak in there. And then the ambiguity of accents by 3:11:42.360 --> 3:11:45.320 us passport is on the way, on the way, on 3:11:45.360 --> 3:11:49.720 the way. Yeah, so was the Queen of England's Yeah, 3:11:50.240 --> 3:11:53.039 trust going to take that away, King Charles, it's going 3:11:53.080 --> 3:11:55.280 to make it not allowed. I do have to get 3:11:55.320 --> 3:11:57.480 a new Canadian passport with the king on it now, 3:11:57.560 --> 3:12:02.240 which sucks. That was the most I guess we all 3:12:02.320 --> 3:12:04.680 learned a lot because it's been so long since you 3:12:04.760 --> 3:12:07.519 had a change of monarch. But the fact that everyone 3:12:07.640 --> 3:12:10.520 has to stop using the money and everyone has to 3:12:10.560 --> 3:12:18.480 skip is fucking absurd. This is the worst political system 3:12:18.520 --> 3:12:22.600 I've ever heard of. Just wait, because it's gonna get 3:12:22.640 --> 3:12:26.720 even more kind of Okay, Chris, you live in Chicago. Yeah, 3:12:26.760 --> 3:12:29.800 but here's here's the thing. Here's the thing right in Chicago, right, 3:12:29.959 --> 3:12:33.680 everyone everyone like like too, and in the core of 3:12:33.760 --> 3:12:37.280 their being they know that the people who ruled him 3:12:37.320 --> 3:12:41.199 are robbing them. Everyone in Britain actually genuinely like wants 3:12:41.240 --> 3:12:44.240 to be like this. No one in Chicago wants any 3:12:44.280 --> 3:12:46.000 of the people in Chicago who rule us to be 3:12:46.080 --> 3:12:49.840 ruling us. Right. Everyone in Britain is like pro like 3:12:50.400 --> 3:12:52.720 they want to have to throw all their money away 3:12:52.920 --> 3:12:55.480 because some fucking ninety year old in a hat died. 3:12:57.000 --> 3:13:02.720 Is an incomprehensible level of just outstanding. Yeah, it's a 3:13:02.720 --> 3:13:05.360 marvelous country. There's nothing wrong with it. It will continue 3:13:05.400 --> 3:13:09.040 to be marvelous. And the lowest ten percent of income 3:13:09.080 --> 3:13:12.440 people in Britain now enjoy a quality of life which 3:13:12.480 --> 3:13:15.400 is substantially lower than that same income bracket in Slovenia, 3:13:16.120 --> 3:13:21.760 which looking at the economic powerhouse of Slovenia, I just 3:13:21.800 --> 3:13:24.280 want to say, we do not deserve a better quality 3:13:24.320 --> 3:13:28.960 of living than the people of Slovenia actually rules. Yeah, 3:13:29.000 --> 3:13:31.879 it does great places. Yeah, it's a really nice place. 3:13:32.240 --> 3:13:34.640 She takes about two hours to cross. But it's a 3:13:34.680 --> 3:13:36.680 great country. Right, you can ride your bike across it. 3:13:36.760 --> 3:13:38.600 But that's great, that's what you want to do. What's 3:13:38.680 --> 3:13:41.160 what's happening here is that Maoice Liz Trust is like 3:13:41.320 --> 3:13:45.960 very slowly returning all the brids of the countryside. She yeah, 3:13:46.000 --> 3:13:49.080 she's she's doing a cultural revolution. And let's talk about 3:13:49.120 --> 3:13:52.720 Mauice Liz Trust. So her parents are actually a long 3:13:52.760 --> 3:13:54.480 way to her left. There was a thing a little 3:13:54.480 --> 3:13:57.200 while ago where her dad refused to campaign for her 3:13:57.680 --> 3:14:00.240 when she ran for a seat as a Conservative, which 3:14:00.280 --> 3:14:03.440 is based critical support for liszt Us his dad. Her 3:14:03.480 --> 3:14:06.000 mom also ran as a lib dem which is not 3:14:06.120 --> 3:14:09.080 exactly like the Liberal Democrats are not exactly like the 3:14:09.120 --> 3:14:11.240 party that are going to liberate the working class through 3:14:11.879 --> 3:14:15.200 glorious revolution. But it's still pretty funny to have your 3:14:15.240 --> 3:14:18.440 mom running for a different party than you and objectively amusing. 3:14:19.640 --> 3:14:23.720 She was born in Oxford. Her parents her mother's a teacher, 3:14:23.959 --> 3:14:26.880 her dad is an academic. I think it leads her 3:14:26.959 --> 3:14:31.600 dad's he's a mathematician. What a nerd? God damn it. 3:14:32.200 --> 3:14:34.160 Her dad is not the nerd here. Her dad is 3:14:34.600 --> 3:14:37.840 the best. Trust as far as I can tell, it's 3:14:38.080 --> 3:14:41.120 it's Liz who were worried about. She described her parents 3:14:41.360 --> 3:14:43.640 as being to the left of labor, which is not hard. 3:14:44.600 --> 3:14:48.240 Labor just exists to kind of these days really to 3:14:48.280 --> 3:14:52.039 have the pretensive opposition right. They've deliberately purged the left 3:14:52.160 --> 3:14:55.440 from labor after two thousand and nineteen, and they exist 3:14:55.480 --> 3:14:58.480 for Keir Starmer to say I broadly support this terrible 3:14:58.520 --> 3:15:02.840 nearliberal policy but and then say something completely ineffectual. And 3:15:02.879 --> 3:15:05.800 I'm sure he will be Prime Minister soon and nothing 3:15:05.840 --> 3:15:07.400 will change. And I think that Liz Trust has done 3:15:07.400 --> 3:15:10.560 and is doing, will be walked back because Britain doesn't 3:15:10.560 --> 3:15:13.240 have an effective left opposition in Parliament. It does in 3:15:13.440 --> 3:15:15.640 society and in the streets. And we'll see there are 3:15:15.640 --> 3:15:18.720 lots of movements. Our parliament is a fast and continues 3:15:18.720 --> 3:15:20.200 to be a fast and it's lots of dudes who 3:15:20.200 --> 3:15:23.680 went to the same education institutions making this funny kind 3:15:23.680 --> 3:15:26.359 of noise that there are more diverse people in parliament. 3:15:26.400 --> 3:15:28.800 But I'm sure people have seen videos of the British 3:15:28.800 --> 3:15:33.920 Parliament right and everyone was like when someone sounds just 3:15:34.000 --> 3:15:39.279 like that, yeah that thanks Danial Americans who don't understand 3:15:39.680 --> 3:15:43.600 entirely how British educational culture works. The fancy schools that 3:15:43.640 --> 3:15:46.600 they go to, they're like Hogwarts if you replaced like 3:15:46.720 --> 3:15:49.640 the magic with kids beating each other in the shower 3:15:49.879 --> 3:15:54.600 and yeah yeah, with the repressed sexuality and yeah yeah, violence, 3:15:55.160 --> 3:15:58.080 bullying and being picked on because you're the poorest kid 3:15:58.080 --> 3:15:59.800 in a school ful. So actually it is. It is 3:15:59.840 --> 3:16:05.520 a like Harry Potters, quite a bit like Harry Yeah yeah, yeah, 3:16:05.520 --> 3:16:08.920 there are still turfs. It's very disappointing. So, talking of 3:16:09.080 --> 3:16:12.160 educational institutions, trust went to ox It right, she went 3:16:12.160 --> 3:16:14.080 to Merchant. I went to talk to two. I didn't 3:16:14.080 --> 3:16:17.119 get to Merchant. That's a better off college. I went 3:16:17.160 --> 3:16:20.080 to college which is renowned for being poor. For what 3:16:20.240 --> 3:16:22.440 that's worth. Within Oxford colleges which were all full of 3:16:22.520 --> 3:16:26.359 rich people doing rich people's stuff. She read Ppe Politics 3:16:26.400 --> 3:16:28.840 philosophy and economics, which I don't think you can really 3:16:28.920 --> 3:16:32.959 do as a degree in the US. Right, what is 3:16:33.000 --> 3:16:37.360 that politics, philosophy and economic Yeah, yeah, it's called PP 3:16:38.120 --> 3:16:43.520 three made up things? Well, what do you say? Other 3:16:43.640 --> 3:16:46.160 other degrees, on the other hand, are real and tangible 3:16:46.320 --> 3:16:49.240 and of course in the physical space where you can 3:16:49.280 --> 3:16:52.840 touch them. Everyone knows that. Yeah, it's true. Apart from 3:16:52.879 --> 3:16:56.119 pp PP is so like I went to talk for two. 3:16:56.200 --> 3:16:58.680 I took Modern History and Politics, which is way cooler 3:16:58.840 --> 3:17:03.000 and better in every way. But the PPE kids such 3:17:03.040 --> 3:17:06.760 so that people understand. A vast number of British prime 3:17:06.760 --> 3:17:10.440 ministers have taken PP as as their undergraduate degree. It's 3:17:10.480 --> 3:17:13.440 like the Kingmaker of degrees and you take it because 3:17:13.440 --> 3:17:17.160 you're an insufferable, fucking dorc who wants to be prime 3:17:17.160 --> 3:17:21.360 minister or like work for the British government in some way, right, 3:17:21.400 --> 3:17:23.640 Like it is this like kingo maker one of the 3:17:23.760 --> 3:17:26.600 prime minister It looks like such a good job. Yeah, 3:17:26.680 --> 3:17:30.080 they last a long time. They have universally great approval 3:17:30.160 --> 3:17:31.920 ratings and to be fair, they do just go on 3:17:31.959 --> 3:17:34.000 to grift to share a ton of money like it's 3:17:34.040 --> 3:17:36.000 not and they don't have to do it for like 3:17:36.440 --> 3:17:39.280 a fixed period of time, like American presidents do. So 3:17:39.360 --> 3:17:41.680 that's nice. They can just have a bunch of parties 3:17:41.680 --> 3:17:43.680 for their friends in the lockdown and their leave, which 3:17:43.720 --> 3:17:46.360 is more or less what Boris Johnson did. And I 3:17:46.400 --> 3:17:49.440 don't I don't expect Liz to be Prime Minister for long, 3:17:49.600 --> 3:17:53.360 but it's what she's doing and what she has already 3:17:53.400 --> 3:17:56.760 sort of done that I think it's of interest here. Certainly, 3:17:56.840 --> 3:17:59.199 she was also president before we get off her university 3:17:59.240 --> 3:18:06.760 time at the Oxford University Liberal Democrats and so oh yeah, yeah, 3:18:06.760 --> 3:18:11.320 great stuff. The so like she's gradually drifted to the right, 3:18:11.480 --> 3:18:14.920 which you know, what are we? What we she's grifted 3:18:14.920 --> 3:18:16.720 to the right. You know, the lib Dems were a 3:18:16.760 --> 3:18:21.760 little bit more left then, but Labor was very neoliberal 3:18:21.879 --> 3:18:24.680 in the nineties right when she was in when she 3:18:24.760 --> 3:18:27.080 was in Parliament, so sometimes the Lib Dems provided something 3:18:27.120 --> 3:18:30.400 of a left opposition if you remember, like Tony Blair 3:18:30.520 --> 3:18:35.040 New Labor. It was just kind of bold neoliberal, like 3:18:35.280 --> 3:18:38.560 shameless near liberalism. Right now, Tony Blair is the one 3:18:38.600 --> 3:18:41.640 who was played by Hugh Grant, right is he the 3:18:41.680 --> 3:18:43.800 one of his He the inspiration for love? Actually, I 3:18:44.440 --> 3:18:47.600 was assuming because Tony Blair was the only British politician 3:18:47.640 --> 3:18:50.640 I could name as a child. Okay, must have been right, 3:18:50.879 --> 3:18:54.879 because Tony Blair is completely devoid of charisma, and the 3:18:54.959 --> 3:18:57.800 one thing that that Hugh Grant character has is charisma, 3:18:57.879 --> 3:18:59.760 So maybe maybe he does kind of. I mean, they're 3:18:59.760 --> 3:19:03.200 all pint men. They are a white man that is 3:19:03.240 --> 3:19:06.440 a very white movie. He looks like him. But then 3:19:06.480 --> 3:19:09.240 that's not exactly a remarkable thing, is it in sort 3:19:09.280 --> 3:19:13.840 of homogeneous British ruling class that we have so trust 3:19:13.959 --> 3:19:16.640 has gone through like being Secretary of State for Justice, 3:19:16.680 --> 3:19:20.760 through being Lord Chancellor, through being Foreign Secretary. Okay, Lord 3:19:20.840 --> 3:19:23.760 Chancellors are pretty cool sounding title. I gotta give it 3:19:23.760 --> 3:19:27.160 to him first. That's like Star Wars ship did you do? 3:19:27.200 --> 3:19:35.320 They have a shadow Lord Chancellor to the thing that is, 3:19:35.360 --> 3:19:37.560 they pick the terms to make it all sound cool, 3:19:37.600 --> 3:19:40.560 like when whenever one of like your parliamentary coalitions collapse, 3:19:40.600 --> 3:19:44.240 they're like the government has fallen. It just makes it 3:19:44.280 --> 3:19:46.560 all sound like it's so much cooler than it is. 3:19:47.080 --> 3:19:49.280 It does lend an air of shakespeare An epic where 3:19:49.280 --> 3:19:51.680 it's one of these is these seventeen people who all 3:19:51.760 --> 3:19:54.039 went to the same schools and read the same Telegraph 3:19:54.080 --> 3:19:56.720 newspaper columnists have disagree with each other from minor point 3:19:56.760 --> 3:19:59.480 and will shortly be reconstituting their alliance in a slightly 3:19:59.520 --> 3:20:02.240 different way. Yeah, but it sounds like people are fighting 3:20:02.320 --> 3:20:06.520 each other with machetes. It has a game of thrones 3:20:06.640 --> 3:20:11.959 beheading via Maybe that's where this is heading. Who knows? 3:20:12.000 --> 3:20:14.240 She I think if people had heard of Lives Trust 3:20:14.280 --> 3:20:17.160 until she became Prime Minister, it was probably from her 3:20:17.640 --> 3:20:21.800 really wonderful pork market speech, which if you haven't watched 3:20:21.800 --> 3:20:23.680 the pork market speech, it is a study and when 3:20:23.720 --> 3:20:27.640 you should and shouldn't pause for applause, Robert, have you 3:20:27.680 --> 3:20:31.480 seen this pork markets? No? Okay, what is a fucking 3:20:31.520 --> 3:20:35.440 pork market? It's so funny. In December, I'll be in 3:20:35.520 --> 3:20:42.800 Beijing opening up new pork markets. What the fund is 3:20:42.840 --> 3:20:49.360 this ship? She's not a real person, she's it's it's 3:20:49.400 --> 3:20:51.200 reminiscent of like when you take a fish out of 3:20:51.200 --> 3:20:54.080 water and it moves its lips but makes no coherent noise, 3:20:54.640 --> 3:20:58.400 an alien trying to pretend to be humid. Yeah, it's 3:20:58.560 --> 3:21:01.840 it's this is this is a great leader of our people, 3:21:02.120 --> 3:21:07.680 and it's the uncanny value of post craft Ian and 3:21:07.720 --> 3:21:11.600 it's in its unsettling nous. Yeah yeah, what's what's what's 3:21:11.600 --> 3:21:13.760 happening here. What we're seeing is that this is this 3:21:13.840 --> 3:21:16.240 is the this is the final result of affirmative action 3:21:16.280 --> 3:21:18.280 from white people. Yes, we're going to get into that. 3:21:18.360 --> 3:21:20.000 This is why, this is why she has this job. 3:21:20.080 --> 3:21:22.840 She she she benefited from affermative action from white people. 3:21:24.000 --> 3:21:28.280 Other examples of this include Destiny and yeah, yeah, you 3:21:28.280 --> 3:21:31.280 get the same kind of person every single time, same 3:21:31.320 --> 3:21:33.560 same right, like Destiny and the Prime Minister of the 3:21:33.640 --> 3:21:37.360 UK and yeah, so like she becomes prime minister. And 3:21:37.400 --> 3:21:39.920 it's worth noting that, like, the way you become prime 3:21:39.959 --> 3:21:41.920 minister in the UK is different to the way you 3:21:42.000 --> 3:21:44.080 become president in the US. Right, you are the leader 3:21:44.160 --> 3:21:46.800 of the majority party in parliament, or of the coalition 3:21:46.840 --> 3:21:49.080 that controls the majority of the votes in parliament. So 3:21:49.480 --> 3:21:52.440 she becomes prime Minister not through a vote of the people, 3:21:52.760 --> 3:21:55.360 but through a vote of the members of the Conservative Party. 3:21:55.480 --> 3:21:58.360 And you can understand as like people whose dogs have 3:21:58.440 --> 3:22:02.880 girls names and whose daughters have dogs names. I think 3:22:02.920 --> 3:22:05.200 that is I think that's a trash future bit. I 3:22:05.200 --> 3:22:07.600 don't know where it came from, but it explains some perfectly. 3:22:08.440 --> 3:22:12.120 So these people got together and they she ran against 3:22:12.200 --> 3:22:16.640 Richie Sunac right and who is eminently more capable of 3:22:16.680 --> 3:22:20.280 doing the fashion neoliberal ship that they want to do, 3:22:20.959 --> 3:22:23.720 as are many other people of color within their party. 3:22:24.120 --> 3:22:27.680 But above all things, they are racist, right above even 3:22:27.800 --> 3:22:32.200 doing this kind of speed run extraction from the British economy, 3:22:32.240 --> 3:22:35.440 they are still racists. They're they're they're fine with having 3:22:35.560 --> 3:22:38.880 people of color in in positions in the hierarchy, right, 3:22:38.879 --> 3:22:41.520 there's something that Britain established through hundreds of years of empire. 3:22:42.440 --> 3:22:45.080 But the idea, the idea of having someone in a 3:22:45.160 --> 3:22:49.200 leadership position is is fundamentally anathema to the Conservative Party. 3:22:49.320 --> 3:22:53.480 So instead they picked kind of Liz Trust to just 3:22:53.480 --> 3:22:57.160 flap her lips around and talk about pork markets. Right, 3:22:57.879 --> 3:23:01.840 So that's how we get Liz Trust as Prime Minister. 3:23:01.920 --> 3:23:04.440 So no one per se votes for Lizz Trust. No 3:23:04.520 --> 3:23:06.680 one even per se votes for like the Liz Trust 3:23:06.879 --> 3:23:10.360 a genda that we're seeing now, right, and I think 3:23:10.400 --> 3:23:13.880 that's really important. And in her acceptance speech she talks 3:23:13.920 --> 3:23:16.879 to Boris Johnson. She said, you're you're admired from Kiev 3:23:16.959 --> 3:23:22.360 to Carlisle. Yeah, she says, yeah, okay, first of all, 3:23:24.760 --> 3:23:28.480 bizz Absolutely, the thing I know about Boris Johnson is 3:23:28.520 --> 3:23:31.080 that he looks like Donald Trump. If Trump didn't have 3:23:31.200 --> 3:23:34.680 his ship quite so together, Yes, yeah, Donald Trump. His 3:23:34.760 --> 3:23:36.440 mom didn't tell him to comb his hair and tuck 3:23:36.480 --> 3:23:38.360 his shirt and before he went to school. Yeah, if 3:23:38.360 --> 3:23:40.920 Donald Trump couldn't have paid paid a half people like 3:23:41.040 --> 3:23:43.280 check him before he walks out the door, that's how 3:23:43.320 --> 3:23:45.960 he would look. Yeah, yes, exactly. If he fell over 3:23:46.000 --> 3:23:47.920 in a wind tunnel, he would look like Boris Johnson. 3:23:51.400 --> 3:23:53.920 Boris Johnson a guy so fucking rich he's never had 3:23:53.959 --> 3:23:56.959 to comb his hair. Stop being prime minister because of 3:23:57.040 --> 3:24:00.200 these scandals, right, these sleeve scandals about them having teas 3:24:00.280 --> 3:24:02.240 during lockdown. More or less, that was what destroyed him, 3:24:02.280 --> 3:24:05.440 not any of his terrible policies, his bigoted bullshit. Him 3:24:05.440 --> 3:24:08.000 writing up ed saying that the problem with us was 3:24:08.040 --> 3:24:09.879 not that we were in charge of Africa, but that 3:24:09.959 --> 3:24:14.160 we're not anymore. God, Yeah, this is a type of 3:24:14.200 --> 3:24:18.400 guy who exists and can become Prime minister. Like people 3:24:18.440 --> 3:24:22.000 don't understand. I think, um, British, the British right is 3:24:22.080 --> 3:24:24.080 very different from the American right, and I think we're 3:24:24.080 --> 3:24:25.880 going to get into that. And also a guy who 3:24:25.879 --> 3:24:28.640 famously just like pulverized a small child on a trip 3:24:28.680 --> 3:24:32.440 to Japan. Play You don't need to say the things 3:24:32.480 --> 3:24:37.080 that he did that are rad He he did finally 3:24:37.120 --> 3:24:39.720 discover the actual third world British politics, which is that 3:24:40.240 --> 3:24:43.000 if you have fun in a way that someone else 3:24:43.040 --> 3:24:47.080 can't have fun, they will destroy you. Yes, the mere 3:24:47.080 --> 3:24:49.320 British person, but your act of a British person seeing 3:24:49.320 --> 3:24:54.600 another person having any joy whatsoever, like just like the 3:24:55.120 --> 3:24:57.959 so a switch flips in their brain and they just 3:24:58.000 --> 3:25:02.160 turned into like Brits but worse. This is yes, so 3:25:02.240 --> 3:25:04.440 this is like there are basically two ways that a 3:25:04.440 --> 3:25:07.760 British political party can be right. One is that they 3:25:08.080 --> 3:25:12.000 enjoy themselves while they're plundering the institution to still remain 3:25:12.000 --> 3:25:13.560 in the United Kingdom. And the other one is that 3:25:13.600 --> 3:25:16.320 they are like magnastically abstemious while they're doing it right. 3:25:16.360 --> 3:25:19.240 And Labor tend to be the obstnious ones, uh, and 3:25:19.280 --> 3:25:20.879 the Tories tend to be the ones who drink the 3:25:20.879 --> 3:25:23.080 poor and have the lockdown parties and have like literal 3:25:23.160 --> 3:25:25.600 karaoke events when they're asking people not to go to 3:25:25.600 --> 3:25:28.840 their grandparents funerals and labor tend to be the ones 3:25:28.840 --> 3:25:31.520 who wring their hands to go oh no and then 3:25:31.720 --> 3:25:34.080 fundamentally do the same ship. Right, that that is a 3:25:34.080 --> 3:25:37.959 different Chris is entirely correct that that is the thing 3:25:38.040 --> 3:25:41.039 that irritates British people most, right, And maybe we'll just 3:25:41.040 --> 3:25:44.880 talk about this right now. It's increasingly like it's not 3:25:44.959 --> 3:25:47.840 the material conditions that bring down British governments, because material 3:25:47.840 --> 3:25:50.039 conditions are getting worse and have been getting worse since 3:25:50.040 --> 3:25:56.000 we started this this austerity stuff in it's these stupid scandals, right, 3:25:56.080 --> 3:25:59.560 these these personal scandals which yes, normally involve them having 3:25:59.600 --> 3:26:02.760 too much fun when they're supposed to be pretending to 3:26:02.760 --> 3:26:05.520 be serious while they steal all the all the things 3:26:05.600 --> 3:26:08.520 that still remain in Britain. And I want to talk 3:26:08.520 --> 3:26:10.440 about a little later. So yeah, she said Boris Johnson 3:26:10.520 --> 3:26:12.800 was amoved from Keith to Carlole. He's not. That's why 3:26:12.800 --> 3:26:16.680 he's not Prime minister anymore. Everyone hates him. And also 3:26:17.240 --> 3:26:19.120 I don't think she's been to Carlos because I got 3:26:19.120 --> 3:26:22.240 family who lived there and not everyone loves Borrows Johnson there, 3:26:23.160 --> 3:26:27.000 and I'm sure not in Kiev either. But so the 3:26:27.120 --> 3:26:29.840 UK has been having this cost of living crisis since 3:26:29.840 --> 3:26:32.800 the economy reopened in one right, since the end of lockdown. 3:26:33.640 --> 3:26:35.920 What this cost of living crisis is, what cost of 3:26:35.959 --> 3:26:38.680 living goes DoD is generally is that when the goods 3:26:38.680 --> 3:26:41.680 that you need to buy to exist arising more quickly 3:26:41.720 --> 3:26:44.960 than the wages you get paid for working. Now, some 3:26:45.040 --> 3:26:46.880 of these causes a globe or Right, we have this 3:26:46.920 --> 3:26:50.160 inflation issue in the US too, but the UK has 3:26:50.200 --> 3:26:54.360 compounded this by leaving the European Union, that creating massive 3:26:54.800 --> 3:26:58.200 labor labor shortages and these repeated bumps in the energy 3:26:58.240 --> 3:27:01.640 price cap? Right, which is the limit that an average 3:27:01.680 --> 3:27:06.520 family should pay for their energy consumption. It's not it's 3:27:06.560 --> 3:27:10.280 not a hard stop. It's not a limit on how 3:27:10.360 --> 3:27:13.520 much you definitely will pay, but it's a limit on 3:27:13.560 --> 3:27:16.480 how much the average family should pay. Right, and so 3:27:17.480 --> 3:27:20.760 trust comes to power in the context of skyrocketing energy 3:27:20.840 --> 3:27:25.080 rates for British consumers. Gas is used for heating most 3:27:25.080 --> 3:27:29.880 homes in the UK, and it's increased in price since 3:27:30.520 --> 3:27:34.760 before the coronavirus times. Despite the fact that most British 3:27:34.760 --> 3:27:38.560 people don't pay spot prices for gas and pay the 3:27:38.600 --> 3:27:43.600 going market rate for gas, there's a serious crisis and affordability. 3:27:43.680 --> 3:27:48.240 Now it was looking like the gas bills are going 3:27:48.240 --> 3:27:50.240 to go up, into the average gas bill for the 3:27:50.280 --> 3:27:52.560 average British person is going to go up more than 3:27:53.040 --> 3:27:55.800 it now is because Trust has has announced some capping 3:27:55.800 --> 3:27:57.680 of spot rates. We're going to get into why that 3:27:57.840 --> 3:28:01.560 isn't as great as its sound. The big issue here 3:28:01.680 --> 3:28:04.920 is that Britain doesn't have a nationalized provider, right. It's 3:28:05.240 --> 3:28:08.720 privatized its energy. Great, it's privatized its energy generation, and 3:28:09.200 --> 3:28:13.520 it ends up with this bizarre situation where one of 3:28:13.560 --> 3:28:15.680 the one of the people you can buy energy off 3:28:15.680 --> 3:28:17.320 and often you don't have a choice, right depending on 3:28:17.320 --> 3:28:22.400 where you are, is the French national energy company. That 3:28:22.480 --> 3:28:24.960 makes sense, Yeah, it makes perfect sense, right, it's it's 3:28:24.959 --> 3:28:27.760 great and one of the notables consequent to this is 3:28:27.760 --> 3:28:30.080 a gas price who've gone up. France caps the prices 3:28:30.120 --> 3:28:32.879 that consumers can pay Britain allows them to charge a 3:28:32.879 --> 3:28:36.720 lot more so British people at this it's as a 3:28:36.800 --> 3:28:38.400 rule one thing that Britain. You would telling me that 3:28:38.440 --> 3:28:42.200 France finally won that long year and saying that we 3:28:42.280 --> 3:28:45.520 have been owned by the French. And if that doesn't 3:28:45.520 --> 3:28:47.600 bring down the Conservative government, I don't know what will 3:28:47.640 --> 3:28:50.080 because there's one thing British people dislike its French people. 3:28:50.640 --> 3:28:54.000 And and so yeah, Britain is now subsidizing energy rates 3:28:54.000 --> 3:28:56.480 for French consumers, which is great having just left the 3:28:56.480 --> 3:29:01.440 European Union, because we are incredibly xenophobic as a nation 3:29:01.480 --> 3:29:05.000 as it turns out. And people may have seen this 3:29:05.640 --> 3:29:08.879 UK TV show called This Morning where they did a 3:29:08.879 --> 3:29:10.920 wheel of Fortune type thing where you could win a 3:29:10.920 --> 3:29:17.160 thousand pounds or or they will pay your energy bills. Yeah, 3:29:17.200 --> 3:29:20.080 but for like three or four months, right, months, four 3:29:20.120 --> 3:29:22.280 months of energy bills. And the bloke they're doing it 3:29:22.320 --> 3:29:24.960 in it's just like it's this side of relief when 3:29:25.000 --> 3:29:29.200 he gets energy bills, right, He's like, oh massive, Like 3:29:29.240 --> 3:29:31.080 I'm gonna have my energy bills pay for four months. 3:29:31.080 --> 3:29:33.840 It's such a relief. And this guy is one of 3:29:33.920 --> 3:29:36.320 four million people in the UK who uses what's called 3:29:36.320 --> 3:29:40.480 a pre payment meter, which I'm reliably informed that Americans 3:29:40.560 --> 3:29:44.520 don't have. So do you do you all? Are you 3:29:44.600 --> 3:29:50.840 familiar with the concept of pre payment meters? Uh? No, okay, 3:29:51.440 --> 3:29:53.400 so maybe people are familiar with like pay as you 3:29:53.440 --> 3:29:56.640 go phones right where you go to the shop. Yeah, 3:29:56.680 --> 3:29:59.800 if you if you're like selling drugs, or your you 3:30:00.120 --> 3:30:03.360 engaged in anti government extremism. Yeah you want to want 3:30:03.360 --> 3:30:06.040 a phone like that? Sure? Yeah yeah yeah, Or if 3:30:06.040 --> 3:30:09.640 you're doing journalism, you might want journalism reasons. It's the 3:30:09.680 --> 3:30:14.560 same as one of the others. Yeah, yes, true. Yeah. 3:30:14.680 --> 3:30:17.640 Here at cool Zone Media. You know, you know, you 3:30:17.680 --> 3:30:20.360 know who won't use a prepaid cell phone to sell 3:30:20.400 --> 3:30:24.480 you drugs because they're not Wait yeah they would, you 3:30:24.480 --> 3:30:26.000 think so? I think they just got enough money they 3:30:26.040 --> 3:30:28.040 would just use a regular phone bill and have a lawyer. 3:30:28.160 --> 3:30:30.199 Just you know, I think I think they're deep into 3:30:30.200 --> 3:30:34.280 boost Mobile for the only thing even John laugh. They're 3:30:34.320 --> 3:30:37.720 fucking back. Okay, So you know who has to go 3:30:37.760 --> 3:30:39.600 to Walmut to buy more credit to their phone so 3:30:39.640 --> 3:30:42.520 they can sell you some weed. It's the advertisers who 3:30:42.520 --> 3:30:46.480 support this show. Okay, we're back and we are talking 3:30:46.520 --> 3:30:51.879 about prepaid energy meters, a scintillating topic. So the prepaid 3:30:51.920 --> 3:30:53.120 energy meter, you have to go out, you have to 3:30:53.120 --> 3:30:55.800 pay for energy, so if your rate to go. The 3:30:55.920 --> 3:30:59.520 reason for these overwhelmingly is like there's an agreement by 3:30:59.520 --> 3:31:02.640 which stenergy supplies won't just cut you off. In the UK, 3:31:03.000 --> 3:31:04.760 like if you have old people in your house, you 3:31:04.760 --> 3:31:07.200 have children in your house, like they have to do this. 3:31:07.640 --> 3:31:10.480 The appearance of caring is this thing that we're going 3:31:10.520 --> 3:31:12.840 to see is really important in lots of these policies. Right, 3:31:13.080 --> 3:31:15.640 so they can't cut you off, but if they have it, 3:31:15.680 --> 3:31:17.640 if you have a meter and you can't prepay for 3:31:17.680 --> 3:31:21.520 the electricity, then your de facto cut off. Right And 3:31:21.879 --> 3:31:24.000 the best states I could find about this was in 3:31:24.480 --> 3:31:28.800 seventeen were roughly a hundred and forty tho households of 3:31:28.879 --> 3:31:32.640 the of those that had pre payment meters self disconnected. 3:31:32.680 --> 3:31:36.280 Self disconnected the euphemism for they couldn't pay right for 3:31:36.520 --> 3:31:40.080 gas or electricity in they couldn't afford to our credit 3:31:40.120 --> 3:31:41.800 to their meter right and they didn't have the credit, 3:31:41.840 --> 3:31:44.920 so they couldn't get the electricity, so they end up disconnecting. 3:31:45.160 --> 3:31:47.480 And if you add to this that the British houses 3:31:47.520 --> 3:31:51.600 are made out of cheese. Our houses are very poorly 3:31:51.640 --> 3:31:55.240 insulated for the most part. Right that they're often single brick, 3:31:55.800 --> 3:31:59.040 so it's expensive to heat them and they get cold 3:31:59.080 --> 3:32:00.680 in the winter and they get hot in the summer. 3:32:00.680 --> 3:32:03.360 We're not we don't have houses are designed to deal 3:32:03.400 --> 3:32:06.320 with the extremes in temperature which we are now experiencing 3:32:06.520 --> 3:32:10.040 because we have ruined the climate. So people are spending 3:32:10.080 --> 3:32:12.240 more and more, using more and more electricity and gas 3:32:12.280 --> 3:32:15.240 to heat their homes. It's costing more and more and 3:32:15.320 --> 3:32:19.000 increasingly they can't afford to pay it, right, and this 3:32:19.400 --> 3:32:23.840 will lead to people dying. So if we look at 3:32:23.879 --> 3:32:27.760 like what the average pensioner in the UK, right, I 3:32:27.800 --> 3:32:31.480 looked at some statistics on the Office of National Statistic Here, 3:32:31.879 --> 3:32:34.760 the average pensioner in the UK has on a fixed income. 3:32:34.800 --> 3:32:40.120 It's making seventeen thousand pounds a year, which I guess 3:32:41.200 --> 3:32:45.200 pounds of what though the gold rubber gold? You take 3:32:45.240 --> 3:32:47.160 your pounds to the Bank of England and they give 3:32:47.200 --> 3:32:52.280 you golden return, Okay, not anymore. That actually, interestingly was, 3:32:53.400 --> 3:32:55.039 if we go on a side note for a minute, 3:32:55.240 --> 3:32:57.879 one of the ways Britain achieved greater democratization when the 3:32:57.879 --> 3:33:00.360 middle class for excluded but landowners were in did was 3:33:00.480 --> 3:33:03.080 the middle class had cash money and the landowners had 3:33:03.080 --> 3:33:05.039 wealth in the form of property. Right, so in the 3:33:05.040 --> 3:33:07.640 middle class threatened to tank the entire Bank of England 3:33:07.640 --> 3:33:11.680 by taking all their pound notes and asking to have 3:33:11.840 --> 3:33:15.200 them converted to to the gold that they that they 3:33:15.480 --> 3:33:18.520 were supposedly pegged to and there was not enough goal 3:33:18.640 --> 3:33:21.039 to actually to do that for the entire money supplies, 3:33:21.040 --> 3:33:24.280 so they could have tanked the Bank of England. So yeah, 3:33:24.280 --> 3:33:28.120 a bit of Reform Act history. They're no longer they're 3:33:28.120 --> 3:33:30.920 decoupled now from that, so you can't do that, sadly. 3:33:31.760 --> 3:33:34.879 But seventeen tho pounds is not a lot of money, right. 3:33:35.720 --> 3:33:38.800 Trust has just announced that the energy bill for an 3:33:38.840 --> 3:33:41.959 average family is going to be KEPPT at two thousand, 3:33:42.040 --> 3:33:45.760 five hundred pound a year, which is a decent chunk 3:33:45.800 --> 3:33:49.160 of your income, right if you're making seventeen thousand. Before that, 3:33:49.320 --> 3:33:52.279 the previous planned limit had been three thousand, five hundred 3:33:52.400 --> 3:33:55.600 forty nine pounds for an average family based on average consumption, 3:33:56.360 --> 3:33:59.600 which is a very significant chunk of your seventeen thousand 3:33:59.640 --> 3:34:02.320 pound yet, right, especially if if if you're renting on 3:34:02.400 --> 3:34:04.600 top of that, Right, the cost of housing, the cost 3:34:04.680 --> 3:34:07.240 of rental housing has gone up in the UK, and 3:34:08.000 --> 3:34:11.680 so and this is arise again. The capital already been 3:34:11.800 --> 3:34:15.000 risen in April. Right, it's not a price cap, right, 3:34:15.080 --> 3:34:18.959 This doesn't mean that you as a family are guaranteed 3:34:19.040 --> 3:34:21.920 that you will not pay more than this two thousand 3:34:22.000 --> 3:34:25.800 found number. What is It's a unit cost limit. So 3:34:25.879 --> 3:34:28.359 not all families are typical, not all homes are typical, 3:34:29.240 --> 3:34:32.200 but the cost is for those who interesting tenpence per 3:34:32.280 --> 3:34:36.480 killer for gas, steady fourpence per killer for electricity. So 3:34:36.840 --> 3:34:40.080 what this means is that, like, we've capped a little 3:34:40.080 --> 3:34:44.520 bit of the cost and in response, like, and this 3:34:44.600 --> 3:34:47.200 is pretty this is pretty typical of what the conservatives do. Right. 3:34:47.200 --> 3:34:49.160 They'll do this thing where they give the appearance of 3:34:49.200 --> 3:34:51.760 caring and then at the same time they bundle it 3:34:51.800 --> 3:34:56.800 in with a bunch of incredibly like uh, just like 3:34:58.040 --> 3:35:00.000 the best way to understand these people is that they've 3:35:00.040 --> 3:35:03.960 you the free market as a religion, right, So, and 3:35:03.920 --> 3:35:06.320 they believe that like the only way out of anything 3:35:06.480 --> 3:35:09.200 is to cut taxes. Whether they actually believe that because 3:35:09.200 --> 3:35:11.640 they think it will genuinely make the situation better, or 3:35:12.000 --> 3:35:13.879 they're just trying to get as much as they can 3:35:13.959 --> 3:35:16.960 for them and theirs. I think it's probably I'm leaning 3:35:16.959 --> 3:35:21.680 towards the second one, right, But so she bundles this 3:35:21.800 --> 3:35:27.120 with the UK is gonna gonna lift it ban on fracking, right, Um, 3:35:27.800 --> 3:35:30.840 the UK band fracking after a series of earth tremors 3:35:30.920 --> 3:35:34.360 near Blackpool, which like, there's a lot of cursed things 3:35:34.400 --> 3:35:37.160 about Britain, but until recently we hadn't added earthquakes to 3:35:37.200 --> 3:35:41.680 that list, and so thank you Liz. They it's very 3:35:41.680 --> 3:35:45.720 funny work Business School published to study in pointing out 3:35:46.640 --> 3:35:49.400 it is widely widely recognized that the open and liberal 3:35:49.440 --> 3:35:52.080 nature of the UK's gas market means that the market 3:35:52.080 --> 3:35:55.800 price the national Baltic point is unlikely to be influenced 3:35:55.800 --> 3:35:58.800 by shell gas development. So shell gas is fracking right 3:35:58.840 --> 3:36:02.080 in the UK. So the UK is going to start fracking, 3:36:02.120 --> 3:36:05.040 which is great. And she also proposed removing the top 3:36:05.080 --> 3:36:08.800 tier of income tax, which is reducing the amount of 3:36:08.840 --> 3:36:11.000 tax paid by people who earn more than a hundred 3:36:11.000 --> 3:36:13.240 and fifty thousand pounds a year right now they pay 3:36:14.040 --> 3:36:18.080 tax above that. This announcement caused a pound to fall 3:36:18.120 --> 3:36:22.560 to a historic low against the dollar and for Trust 3:36:22.640 --> 3:36:26.240 to find herself in open beef with the Wokes Golds 3:36:26.280 --> 3:36:29.880 at the i m F. So the i m F 3:36:30.000 --> 3:36:32.560 said new economic measures laid out by the UK government 3:36:32.560 --> 3:36:35.440 will likely increase inequality, and they added that the i 3:36:35.600 --> 3:36:38.480 m F does not recommend large and untargeted fiscal packages 3:36:38.560 --> 3:36:43.160 at this juncture. So she also during this like she 3:36:44.160 --> 3:36:47.600 she promised that she was going to cancel a planned 3:36:47.680 --> 3:36:51.120 rise on corporate tax and scrap a proposed cap on 3:36:51.200 --> 3:36:55.039 bankers bonuses. This has been one of her big policy things, 3:36:55.080 --> 3:36:58.480 along with Simon Clark, who declared a new age of 3:36:58.480 --> 3:37:03.720 austerity at the time they announced this. Right, but there's 3:37:03.760 --> 3:37:06.520 this constant like everything Britain does is only one way 3:37:06.520 --> 3:37:08.760 in which conservative governments to move can move, and that 3:37:08.879 --> 3:37:10.760 is taxing the other people who went to the same 3:37:10.760 --> 3:37:15.640 schools and universities as them less. So I kind of 3:37:15.680 --> 3:37:17.840 want to take a step back here and talk about 3:37:17.840 --> 3:37:21.240 the ideology that underpins a lot of what Trust is doing. 3:37:21.440 --> 3:37:25.920 And and it's that she and Chance to the execut 3:37:25.959 --> 3:37:29.680 Quasi Quieting and pretty Patel and Dominic rob who are 3:37:29.680 --> 3:37:31.560 all in her cabinet, I think a part of this 3:37:31.840 --> 3:37:35.120 free enterprise group within the Conservative Party. And much like 3:37:35.200 --> 3:37:38.160 you have caucuses in the American Senate, in Britain, we 3:37:38.200 --> 3:37:43.039 have these groups. And they wrote this book called Britannia Unchained, 3:37:43.400 --> 3:37:46.039 which I don't know if people are probably not familiar with. Right, 3:37:47.080 --> 3:37:50.200 I've heard of it, but I know very little about it. Yeah, 3:37:50.280 --> 3:37:53.320 it's just like a it's a series of short essays, 3:37:53.360 --> 3:37:57.560 just like doing a Milton freedoman, like an unreconstructed free 3:37:57.600 --> 3:38:01.560 market fundamentalism. That it's it's very different to what the 3:38:02.200 --> 3:38:04.760 because the American right likes to talk about markets and 3:38:04.800 --> 3:38:08.480 libertarianism and stuff, right, but like in general their entire politics, 3:38:08.520 --> 3:38:11.440 it's just kind of owning the lips, right, like these 3:38:11.480 --> 3:38:14.400 socio cultural a greevances, and then when they get in power, 3:38:14.440 --> 3:38:17.960 they they they're spending is largely just about one might 3:38:18.080 --> 3:38:22.039 argue staying in power, right, Whereas the Conservatives in Britain 3:38:22.080 --> 3:38:27.640 are genuinely committed to slashing government, including slashing services, including 3:38:27.640 --> 3:38:30.720 slashing any kind of social safety. Now right, it does 3:38:30.760 --> 3:38:35.320 have these amusing consequences sometimes, like Britain continually cuts the 3:38:35.400 --> 3:38:38.439 number of police it has, which is great. It's genuinely 3:38:38.480 --> 3:38:41.400 really funny. Yeah, it's it's very funny. It's very funny 3:38:41.480 --> 3:38:44.039 that like our most right wing party, and I guess 3:38:44.080 --> 3:38:46.320 not our most writing party if you've got some proper nutters, 3:38:46.360 --> 3:38:50.520 but we've defunded the police just by not wanting to 3:38:50.520 --> 3:38:54.360 spend money on them. It is also okay, and by 3:38:54.440 --> 3:38:57.080 by funny, you have the incredibly depressing that like like 3:38:57.160 --> 3:39:00.720 Corby Corbin was running on adding more cops, which is 3:39:00.800 --> 3:39:05.000 like the most cursed, Like the British left like always 3:39:05.040 --> 3:39:08.760 like they've always find a way to destroy themselves. That 3:39:08.840 --> 3:39:11.400 they've been doing this for like two hundred years. It's 3:39:11.640 --> 3:39:16.160 really impressive stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's incredibly it's incredibly depressing 3:39:16.240 --> 3:39:18.920 to watch, Like, yes, the British left just tear itself 3:39:18.920 --> 3:39:20.760 to piece. Not that the American left doesn't tear itself 3:39:20.800 --> 3:39:22.120 to pieces, right, it seems to be a thing on 3:39:22.160 --> 3:39:24.160 the left. But yeah, when the British left had a 3:39:24.240 --> 3:39:28.480 serious run and making a serious difference in instead, we 3:39:28.560 --> 3:39:32.280 decided to just absolutely like tear each other to shreds. 3:39:32.360 --> 3:39:35.879 And here we are, right here we are with the 3:39:36.040 --> 3:39:40.560 number of children in poverty going up by six hundred 3:39:40.680 --> 3:39:49.480 thousand in since with the number of twelve The number 3:39:49.520 --> 3:39:51.879 of children who rely on food banks for their food 3:39:51.879 --> 3:39:54.880 security has tripled. By the end of this year, their 3:39:55.000 --> 3:39:57.520 National Health Service, the National Health Curve, which is our 3:39:57.600 --> 3:40:00.640 nationalize socialized medicine system, right, the IDA, will have been 3:40:00.680 --> 3:40:04.760 cut by compared to that's despite the fact that we 3:40:04.800 --> 3:40:10.720 just went through a pandemic. The poorer socio economic groups 3:40:10.720 --> 3:40:14.320 in the UK are experiencing a full in life expectancy 3:40:14.840 --> 3:40:18.040 for the first like we we have life expectancy. It 3:40:18.080 --> 3:40:21.400 is pretty much continually trucked up since the Industrial Revolution, 3:40:21.520 --> 3:40:25.680 but we're now finally slashing that down again. Well I wonder, 3:40:25.760 --> 3:40:29.560 I wonder why. Yeah, there's no way of explaining it 3:40:29.600 --> 3:40:33.800 that there's it's just happening. The only solution is a 3:40:33.840 --> 3:40:36.879 free market, a free market, a freeer market. He had 3:40:36.879 --> 3:40:40.040 to pump more things into the area. Yes, ye, well 3:40:40.160 --> 3:40:41.840 here I'm going to take a puff from my inhaler 3:40:41.879 --> 3:40:44.800 because my lungs are dying. Yeah. Well that's because one 3:40:44.920 --> 3:40:48.000 is outrageous right now, you're not getting fracked hard enough 3:40:48.040 --> 3:40:54.400 in the Pacific. More fracking will fix money. And the 3:40:54.440 --> 3:40:58.200 fact that people are literally dying, yeah, younger than their 3:40:58.240 --> 3:41:02.080 their parents did. And the Tories don't they have these 3:41:02.120 --> 3:41:05.400 like what's very important to them. It's the performance of 3:41:05.480 --> 3:41:09.920 patrician care, right like we saw this with Theresa May's 3:41:10.000 --> 3:41:13.480 burning injustices, which of course remain burning injustices because you're 3:41:13.480 --> 3:41:17.280 doing anything about them. Boris Johnson's leveling up agenda of 3:41:17.360 --> 3:41:20.879 people familiar with his God, I can't believe you have 3:41:20.920 --> 3:41:23.760 a minister, you have a shadow minister of leveling up. 3:41:24.720 --> 3:41:28.440 I just like, at what point do you just go 3:41:28.840 --> 3:41:32.080 none of this is real, and like if they start 3:41:32.120 --> 3:41:34.480 sending cops, you just keep beating them up until everyone 3:41:34.520 --> 3:41:36.720 else is forced to concede that they're like, no, there 3:41:36.800 --> 3:41:39.840 is not in fact a shadow a shadow minister of 3:41:39.959 --> 3:41:44.840 leveling up. Yeah, I don't know. That is the big 3:41:44.879 --> 3:41:47.000 The big question that I want to ask is at 3:41:47.000 --> 3:41:48.680 what point do we realize that there is not a 3:41:48.680 --> 3:41:52.120 shadow Minister of leveling up and that we don't have 3:41:52.160 --> 3:41:54.560 to open new pork markets, and that maybe that isn't 3:41:54.560 --> 3:41:57.160 a solution to us dying younger than our parents, and 3:41:57.720 --> 3:42:00.720 that we don't have to do what these people say 3:42:00.760 --> 3:42:04.760 when they are just very blatantly like Trust is very 3:42:05.040 --> 3:42:09.560 obviously doing an extractive speed run on the British economy 3:42:09.760 --> 3:42:12.320 right there. And I'll tell you what, you know, who 3:42:12.360 --> 3:42:15.920 else will do an expected steed run on the British economy? 3:42:16.280 --> 3:42:18.280 Is that the products and services that yeah, the show 3:42:18.680 --> 3:42:23.320 it is sadly yeah, alright, we're talking about extractors speed runs. 3:42:23.320 --> 3:42:28.360 We're back. So with Johnson and even with Theresa May 3:42:28.480 --> 3:42:30.600 right who was a Prime minister before him, there was 3:42:30.640 --> 3:42:35.440 this important performance of of caring right, being like, Oh, 3:42:35.520 --> 3:42:39.200 we're gonna make life better for the poorer socioeconomic groups, 3:42:39.640 --> 3:42:43.199 the poorer people in the UK. I think what's changed 3:42:43.320 --> 3:42:47.720 is it like the nature of consent from the governed 3:42:47.879 --> 3:42:51.000 is is this thing that maybe we need to elucidate more, right, 3:42:51.000 --> 3:42:54.400 Like in Britain, there was this kind of consensus that 3:42:54.520 --> 3:42:56.680 like the the governing party will pretend to care and 3:42:56.720 --> 3:42:58.840 we'll pretend to do things, and sometimes they would let 3:42:58.879 --> 3:43:01.960 you have nice thing, write little treats and trinkets, and 3:43:02.000 --> 3:43:06.440 that in return you would largely not kick them out right, 3:43:06.480 --> 3:43:08.920 like either physically or electorally, although it's very hard to 3:43:08.959 --> 3:43:12.240 keep them out electorally because of Britain's asked backwards electoral system, 3:43:12.280 --> 3:43:15.720 which is another relic of a previous era. Now they 3:43:15.840 --> 3:43:19.240 don't seem to be bothering to pretend to care, right, 3:43:19.320 --> 3:43:23.000 Like when you're looking at a system in which, when 3:43:23.040 --> 3:43:26.400 trust came to power, old people were going to die. 3:43:26.600 --> 3:43:29.240 We we were looking at a system in which people 3:43:29.240 --> 3:43:31.080 are dying younger than their parents, and old people were 3:43:31.120 --> 3:43:32.920 going to die in the cold this winter, like I've 3:43:32.959 --> 3:43:36.560 got friends. I remember this was years ago, but it 3:43:36.600 --> 3:43:38.840 was when the utility brices maybe started going up. When 3:43:38.840 --> 3:43:41.000 my grandfather passed, my grandmother lived on her own and 3:43:41.040 --> 3:43:43.640 her being really afraid to heat the house because of 3:43:43.680 --> 3:43:46.840 how much it costs. Right, And I've got friends who 3:43:46.840 --> 3:43:48.360 have spoken to this time who were like, well, we're 3:43:48.400 --> 3:43:51.520 preparing to have our grand come and live with us 3:43:51.680 --> 3:43:53.879 so that we can we can heat the house, or 3:43:53.920 --> 3:43:56.120 like if we just move into the downstairs parts of 3:43:56.160 --> 3:43:59.440 the house then we can keep those warm, right, or 3:43:59.600 --> 3:44:01.640 like you know, we're going to go back to having 3:44:01.680 --> 3:44:04.120 fires and we'll just google warm our house with a 3:44:04.160 --> 3:44:05.680 wood fire, right, lots of how does in the UK 3:44:05.720 --> 3:44:09.160 still have fireplaces that are functional? Yeah, my my house 3:44:09.200 --> 3:44:11.280 growing up was heat with a wood fire. It's great. 3:44:11.320 --> 3:44:14.040 It's good for their lungs. It's gives them a good 3:44:14.040 --> 3:44:15.879 coating that they can then use in the rest of 3:44:15.879 --> 3:44:19.040 your life to repel other pollutants. Coal fires are great 3:44:19.080 --> 3:44:23.920 inside the home, highly encouraged. So like people were really 3:44:24.120 --> 3:44:28.320 making these like it's it's it's the sort of stuff 3:44:28.360 --> 3:44:30.880 you you associate maybe with like like the hard times 3:44:30.879 --> 3:44:34.160 in the Soviet Union, right, like like sort of being like, well, 3:44:34.200 --> 3:44:35.720 we're going to go to the food bank and we'll 3:44:35.720 --> 3:44:37.520 line up and get food and then we'll we'll all 3:44:37.560 --> 3:44:40.280 huddling one room to stay warm. But these are the 3:44:40.280 --> 3:44:43.920 plans that people were making like this this summer, looking 3:44:44.000 --> 3:44:48.600 to this winter. And Liz Trust responded to that with like, Okay, well, 3:44:48.600 --> 3:44:51.039 the way to fix this is lower taxes for high 3:44:51.040 --> 3:44:55.680 earners and no cap, but removing the cap on bankers 3:44:55.680 --> 3:44:58.800 bonuses so that the financial services industry will relocate to 3:44:58.840 --> 3:45:01.320 the UK, which it aren't because the UK has left 3:45:01.320 --> 3:45:03.800 the European Union, right, and it's now kind of a 3:45:03.840 --> 3:45:08.879 pariah in that sense. So like, I don't really understand 3:45:09.000 --> 3:45:15.000 how the UK, how the British government at obtains consent 3:45:15.600 --> 3:45:20.600 from the government anymore. And I'm partially interested to see 3:45:20.640 --> 3:45:22.680 how this goes, and partially obviously like a pall to 3:45:22.720 --> 3:45:25.800 see the costs of this. Like they're not even trying 3:45:25.840 --> 3:45:28.560 to care, they're not even pretending anymore. They're just going 3:45:28.600 --> 3:45:30.720 to take what they can and then presumably bounced to 3:45:30.800 --> 3:45:34.640 some tax island where they can they can survive and 3:45:34.680 --> 3:45:36.760 thrive while the rest of us freeze our asses off 3:45:36.800 --> 3:45:42.560 over the winter. So what I wanna, I guess, finish 3:45:42.640 --> 3:45:45.800 up with is this idea that like, so in America, 3:45:45.840 --> 3:45:48.440 you have six terms of elections, right, so every we're 3:45:48.480 --> 3:45:50.960 we're having a mid terms next month and then we'll 3:45:51.000 --> 3:45:53.480 have the presidential in Britain. We don't write in Britain 3:45:53.920 --> 3:45:56.359 the government has to lose a vote from no confidence, 3:45:56.440 --> 3:45:58.440 which is when the majority of MP's vote they no 3:45:58.440 --> 3:46:02.279 longer have confidence in the government or the Prime minister 3:46:02.600 --> 3:46:05.280 have to warr in theory the monarch castic corner election. Right, 3:46:05.600 --> 3:46:07.680 So I guess King Charles could just because they didn't 3:46:07.720 --> 3:46:11.119 let King Charles go to the climate summit recently, which 3:46:11.120 --> 3:46:13.520 is another amazing thing that Live Trusts managed to do 3:46:13.760 --> 3:46:16.920 within like a month of being in office. She's already 3:46:16.959 --> 3:46:19.920 like openly in beef with the monarchy, which is the 3:46:20.000 --> 3:46:24.000 one thing that conservative people might like more than white 3:46:24.080 --> 3:46:27.880 people who tax rich people less. She wouldn't let King 3:46:27.920 --> 3:46:32.080 Charles go to a climate summit because conservatives are more 3:46:32.160 --> 3:46:34.520 or less climate change deniers or at least sort of 3:46:34.560 --> 3:46:36.840 climate change don't give a fuck because we need to 3:46:36.879 --> 3:46:41.920 extract more money, and so like at some point, like 3:46:42.040 --> 3:46:45.080 I don't know what the withdrawal of consent looks like anymore. Right, 3:46:45.280 --> 3:46:49.760 it's the people who British politicians see themselves like see 3:46:49.800 --> 3:46:53.000 themselves as governing for like their constituents are seemingly like 3:46:53.040 --> 3:46:55.879 columnists in the Telegraph, and the people who are the 3:46:55.920 --> 3:46:58.560 CEOs of these big companies in London which have grown 3:46:58.600 --> 3:47:00.800 and grown and grown and grown, bay on this endless 3:47:00.800 --> 3:47:04.119 supply of free money that is now drying up, right, 3:47:04.200 --> 3:47:06.600 So instead of dealing with the record of that, they're 3:47:06.600 --> 3:47:07.959 going to try and look at other ways for those 3:47:08.000 --> 3:47:12.200 people to continue to grow and extract finance. And I 3:47:12.240 --> 3:47:15.680 don't know what that means for the rest of British people, 3:47:15.720 --> 3:47:19.200 like I don't know what the withdrawal of consent from 3:47:19.200 --> 3:47:22.080 a system which so obviously doesn't care about the material 3:47:22.120 --> 3:47:26.040 conditions you live in looks like. But if we want 3:47:26.040 --> 3:47:28.360 to talk about collapse, and collapse is a thing that 3:47:28.400 --> 3:47:31.440 gradually happens rather than the thing that kind of we 3:47:31.480 --> 3:47:34.480 click our fingers and it's there. I think some of 3:47:34.520 --> 3:47:36.920 this is what it looks like, like people refusing to 3:47:36.959 --> 3:47:39.640 pay their power bills is becoming a thing in UK right. 3:47:39.640 --> 3:47:42.480 I should mention the energy companies are recording record profits 3:47:42.840 --> 3:47:46.560 throughout this time period. Maybe it looks like protests in 3:47:46.560 --> 3:47:49.760 the street that Britain has had these like they had 3:47:49.760 --> 3:47:52.200 big tuition feeth protests, and we had the quote unquote 3:47:52.240 --> 3:47:55.280 London riots right, which were incredibly harshly put down and 3:47:55.320 --> 3:47:56.960 people went to jail for a long time for like 3:47:57.000 --> 3:48:01.160 stealing a bottle of water from Motesco. So, like, I 3:48:01.200 --> 3:48:03.440 think it's worth watching for people who are not in 3:48:03.480 --> 3:48:06.480 the UK, Like, what does it look like when you're 3:48:06.480 --> 3:48:09.560 governing elite stop pretending to care about you And what 3:48:09.720 --> 3:48:13.000 is the withdrawal of legitimacy or the withdrawal of consent 3:48:13.879 --> 3:48:16.000 look like? And like I said, I don't know, it's 3:48:16.040 --> 3:48:18.080 it's looked different every time it's happened, right, looked different 3:48:18.120 --> 3:48:22.360 in the Soviet Union too, uh, the way it looked 3:48:22.360 --> 3:48:26.000 in Like I'm trying to think of other regime collapses 3:48:26.000 --> 3:48:29.000 in South America. And but like we say that, ay, 3:48:29.560 --> 3:48:32.080 we say that a regime is consolidated when the rules 3:48:32.080 --> 3:48:33.879 of the game are more important than the outcome of 3:48:33.879 --> 3:48:36.320 the game. And I think we're getting to a point 3:48:36.360 --> 3:48:38.080 in Britain where maybe the outcome of the game is 3:48:38.120 --> 3:48:39.760 going to be more important than the rules of the game. 3:48:40.480 --> 3:48:43.320 So that might mean some serious change, it might not. 3:48:43.400 --> 3:48:44.760 It might just mean, you know, we put a new 3:48:44.840 --> 3:48:47.480 dude on our on our coins and everyone puts bunting 3:48:47.520 --> 3:48:51.000 up industry, and we do nothing fundamentally different and just 3:48:51.080 --> 3:48:54.199 acquiescent and living conditions getting worse and worse and worse, 3:48:54.240 --> 3:48:55.959 and more and more people are dying because their poor. 3:48:56.320 --> 3:49:01.840 I don't know, but yeah, Garrison is just nodding, bet, Yeah, 3:49:01.879 --> 3:49:03.120 I think that last one is going to be the 3:49:03.160 --> 3:49:05.640 one that happens. Yeah, maybe we'll do it Olympics, and 3:49:05.640 --> 3:49:08.040 we'll spend the next what was London twelve, the next 3:49:08.120 --> 3:49:11.320 decade just reminiscing about how great that was, and and 3:49:11.360 --> 3:49:15.040 then we'll just not notice that, you know, our grandparents 3:49:15.040 --> 3:49:18.680 are dying unnecessarily because distrust his friends have to make 3:49:18.680 --> 3:49:22.360 more money. I have. I have an enormous amount of 3:49:22.360 --> 3:49:26.360 faith in the British people to just do nothing like 3:49:26.400 --> 3:49:29.800 they they they have, they have an unbelievable ability to 3:49:29.960 --> 3:49:34.360 just be like things are getting worse, like I don't 3:49:34.360 --> 3:49:38.920 know who cares, like We're still British, like they like 3:49:39.480 --> 3:49:43.080 they can't even really effectively do imperialism anymore. But it's 3:49:43.120 --> 3:49:46.200 like everyone so wedded to the like imperialism machine that 3:49:46.240 --> 3:49:50.480 everyone that like, you know, everyone, every everyone will constantly 3:49:50.560 --> 3:49:53.080 vote against their class interests. Everyone will constantly act agains 3:49:53.080 --> 3:49:55.320 a class interests, everyone will constantly just sort of like 3:49:56.560 --> 3:50:00.480 literally let hundreds of thousands of people die around them. 3:50:00.640 --> 3:50:05.760 Yeah yeah, because flags and sports. I think Corbin has 3:50:06.520 --> 3:50:09.840 and energized a lot of people into realizing their class interests, 3:50:09.880 --> 3:50:11.920 perhaps more than they were before, because there was briefly 3:50:11.920 --> 3:50:14.360 a parliamentary alternative, but right now there isn't Like kiss 3:50:14.400 --> 3:50:16.960 Downer is not Jeremy Corbyn. But then you know, but 3:50:17.000 --> 3:50:19.720 it's also the British right, like it's like well okay, 3:50:19.760 --> 3:50:22.880 so they sort of reconsolidated or left it did nothing, 3:50:23.600 --> 3:50:27.240 got owned and then imploded and now it's being split 3:50:27.280 --> 3:50:31.760 between like just complete pure like people arguing that Star 3:50:31.800 --> 3:50:36.040 Wars doing socialism like like pure labor party hacks, and 3:50:36.080 --> 3:50:39.360 then like a bunch of people just doing nothing because 3:50:39.720 --> 3:50:44.560 it's the UK and it fundamentally never gets any better. Yeah. Yeah, 3:50:44.680 --> 3:50:46.680 there was like I take a little bit of hope 3:50:46.720 --> 3:50:50.160 from like have you seen the the where people are 3:50:50.280 --> 3:50:52.200 to be deported from the UK and then they were 3:50:52.200 --> 3:50:55.400 like mass mobilizations to pretend that happening. Yeah, that gives 3:50:55.400 --> 3:50:57.880 me some hope. Right, that's a lot of people willing 3:50:57.880 --> 3:51:00.000 to give up the Saturday or the Sunday to shower 3:51:00.320 --> 3:51:04.240 immigration offices, and like, that's something that didn't happen by 3:51:04.240 --> 3:51:06.480 and large in the in the US right, even with 3:51:06.640 --> 3:51:10.800 the like gross abuses of the immigration system under Donald Trump, 3:51:11.560 --> 3:51:13.760 people people didn't stop that happening. So some of that 3:51:14.040 --> 3:51:17.040 it did happen in places like there are a lot 3:51:17.040 --> 3:51:19.320 of flights that got blocked and stuff. Yeah, I guess, 3:51:19.360 --> 3:51:22.960 I guess, yeah, yeah it happened then, Yeah, in a 3:51:23.000 --> 3:51:26.160 different way, some people here did, Like I think there 3:51:26.200 --> 3:51:28.360 was an icing and barrier logan and it got run 3:51:28.360 --> 3:51:30.600 out of town. So I shouldn't say that, but that 3:51:30.640 --> 3:51:33.640 gives me hope. It gives me hope that maybe some 3:51:33.680 --> 3:51:37.120 people will realize that, like, the solution is not to 3:51:37.200 --> 3:51:41.160 vote harder, right, and the solution is to is to 3:51:41.280 --> 3:51:44.200 organize and to do things in extra parliamentary fashion and 3:51:44.240 --> 3:51:47.360 not trust the people who are participating in your exploitation 3:51:47.400 --> 3:51:49.960 to live you from your exploitation, which has maybe been 3:51:49.960 --> 3:51:54.000 our mistake for too long. Yeah, we we Everyone in 3:51:54.040 --> 3:51:57.120 England needs to take a page from the Harry Potter 3:51:57.200 --> 3:52:01.600 books and arm the children to murder or government officials. 3:52:01.640 --> 3:52:04.520 If I'm remembering how those folks ended for for for 3:52:04.520 --> 3:52:07.040 form a gorilla army of you and your friends and 3:52:07.160 --> 3:52:12.440 attempt to overthrow the government. Probably. Yeah, let's let's say 3:52:12.640 --> 3:52:16.400 that's that's that's the plot of the Order of the Phoenix. Okay, yeah, 3:52:16.440 --> 3:52:20.440 I remember it now when they when they do a cobbum. Yeah, 3:52:20.640 --> 3:52:23.680 that's it. That's that's. That's our message to you today, 3:52:24.400 --> 3:52:26.520 read Harry pot To do a cobbum. There we go, 3:52:26.680 --> 3:52:30.040 There we go. That's our legally binding message for you today, 3:52:30.960 --> 3:52:36.920 non actionable threat. Hey, We'll be back Monday with more 3:52:37.000 --> 3:52:39.680 episodes every week from now until the heat death of 3:52:39.680 --> 3:52:42.280 the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of 3:52:42.320 --> 3:52:45.240 cool zone Media. For more podcasts from cool zone Media, 3:52:45.320 --> 3:52:47.800 visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 3:52:47.880 --> 3:52:50.120 us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 3:52:50.240 --> 3:52:53.080 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 3:52:53.080 --> 3:52:55.640 for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone 3:52:55.680 --> 3:52:58.440 Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.