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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. It happened somewhere else a

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Speaker 1: while ago, and also somewhere else now ish several days ago.

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Speaker 1: What a great title for a show. I love. I

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Speaker 1: love how snappy and remember and memorable. That is that. Look,

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Speaker 1: look we can we we can, we can go, and

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Speaker 1: we can go into a tiny bit of pulling back

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Speaker 1: the curtain, which is that you can't do too many

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Speaker 1: good intros because if you do too many good intros,

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Speaker 1: and everyone expects you to constantly have a good intro,

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Speaker 1: So every once in a while you have to just

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Speaker 1: make you have you have to lower the overall quality

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Speaker 1: of the intro so that when you are truly desperate,

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Speaker 1: I have just been dragged out of bed at like

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Speaker 1: three am and you have to record a podcast, they're

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Speaker 1: sort of atonal noises will be considered normal. That's why

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Speaker 1: I script all my intros. But I'm just I'm just

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Speaker 1: I'm just built. Yeah, different example that could happen here.

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Speaker 1: What are we what are we doing here today, Chris um,

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Speaker 1: we are talking about well, actually, admittedly we we had

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Speaker 1: planned this episode before this happens. Yeah, we on this

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Speaker 1: episode before the referendum in Cuba about the new family Code.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, we're we're gonna be talking about the kind

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Speaker 1: of bleak but sort of gets better history of homo

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Speaker 1: sexuality in Cuba and how things went from very bad

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Speaker 1: to getting a lot better, and then also how a

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Speaker 1: lot of American leftists like picked up a version of

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Speaker 1: the history of this that is just sort of nonsense.

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Speaker 1: And here here with us talk about this is Andre's Petira,

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Speaker 1: who is well doing doing many things, one of which

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Speaker 1: is studying for PhD in Latin American history at the

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Speaker 1: University of Wisconsin, Madison. On today's Welcome to the show. Oh,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here. Yeah, like,

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Speaker 1: I'm excarted to talk to you about this. So Okay,

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Speaker 1: I guess the place that I want to start is

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Speaker 1: I want to go back to the sixties, and I

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Speaker 1: want to go back to something that I I don't

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people understand very well in terms

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Speaker 1: of what happened in I just happened in various ways

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Speaker 1: over a lot of sort of these new sort of

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Speaker 1: revolutionary socialist states, which is that you get this attempt

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Speaker 1: to like form of like a sort of like like

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Speaker 1: a new revolutionary subject. Sometimes it's like, I mean, the

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Speaker 1: Soviet one was like the New Man. They're they're sort

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Speaker 1: of different versions of this across the sort of areious

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Speaker 1: social revolutionary states. I guess I wanted to ask you

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Speaker 1: to talk about how this kind of got really really

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Speaker 1: homophobic in Cuba, like pretty quickly. Yeah, So, I mean

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Speaker 1: and and and one of the interesting parts about the

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Speaker 1: story in Cuba is that it actually is look in

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Speaker 1: part imported from the USSR and ideas in the USSR.

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Speaker 1: And that's actually one of the connections which in the

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Speaker 1: literature isn't in the academic literature at least isn't always

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Speaker 1: that well explored because Cuban is tend to be very insloyed.

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Speaker 1: We don't really tend to learn Russian. I'm I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of crazy. I actually am learning Russian. But but no

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Speaker 1: so so um. You know, there was obviously lots of homophobia,

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Speaker 1: lots of you know, all like lots of bigotry against

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Speaker 1: LGBT people before nine, not unlike the United States of

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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, like you could live privately or maybe

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Speaker 1: in certain safe spaces, you could live a kind of

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Speaker 1: okay life. But you know, it was definitely very marginalized position,

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Speaker 1: lots of bigotry and lots of personal danger in addition

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Speaker 1: to a lack of basic rights. Um. After nineteen fifty nine, Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, you have this jettison, jettisoning of the Catholic

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Speaker 1: Church and kind of religious reasons for being bigoted with

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Speaker 1: the coming of the revolution, which is a secular communist revolution. Um.

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Speaker 1: But what what ends up happening is they And this

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Speaker 1: is something that Abil Sierra Marero's recent book on on

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Speaker 1: Um on these policies talks about a lot. Is this

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Speaker 1: kind of attempt to remake human men into the demand

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Speaker 1: that's needed for this communist society in the future. And

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Speaker 1: as part of this, they engage in a sort of

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Speaker 1: social hygiene. We don't want people who are lazy, we

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Speaker 1: don't want people who are degenerate, but you know bourgeois

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Speaker 1: degeneracy by you know that kind of stuff. And within this,

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Speaker 1: you know a persecution of people who were seen as

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Speaker 1: either out, either as gay or at least as soft

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Speaker 1: and they need to be made into real macho men

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Speaker 1: for the revolution. And um, this started out in a

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Speaker 1: very series of isolated things, right. You would have like

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Speaker 1: Virgilio Pinieta was who was a dramaturge. He was, um,

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Speaker 1: he was jailed, uh, and he basically he was being

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Speaker 1: targeted because people wanted his house and so if he

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Speaker 1: was jailed and his belongings were separated from him, then

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Speaker 1: like someone could get to keep his apartment. Like that

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Speaker 1: seems to be why he was originally targeted. And he

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Speaker 1: was detained twice for basically walking while gay. That's how

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Speaker 1: basically what the incident boils down. He was walking effeminately

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Speaker 1: in people and he was detained by police and he

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Speaker 1: was free because he had like he was an important person.

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Speaker 1: He was you know, he had some protections. But then

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Speaker 1: as the decade rolls on, as the nineteen sixties rolled on,

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Speaker 1: that's like that's nineteen sixty one year after the revolution,

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Speaker 1: you have the creation of a series of forced labor camps,

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Speaker 1: and there's not really any way to get around that. Um.

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Speaker 1: We don't know exactly how many were sent there, um,

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Speaker 1: but it seems to be in the thousands, maybe tens

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Speaker 1: of thousands. We again, we don't know because the government

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Speaker 1: hasn't classify that information. So it's still a conjecture. But

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Speaker 1: it's not because people don't want to investigate the details. Um.

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Speaker 1: And these are thousands and thousands of people who are

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Speaker 1: being sent for all sorts of reasons. Jehovah's witnesses um. Uh,

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Speaker 1: people who listened to rock, people who are seeing as

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Speaker 1: hippies uh lvi spleanos, so Elvis presleyan's so people who

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Speaker 1: listened to Elvis Presley because that was seen as too

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Speaker 1: effeminate and too yankee. Um and and so they were

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Speaker 1: sent to the camps and to forced labor. But the

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Speaker 1: camps weren't just about forced labor. They were about remaking

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Speaker 1: through labor, these men into your real men, because hard labor,

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Speaker 1: proletarian labor, would you know, remake their spirits and their ethics.

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Speaker 1: And aha, I mean it's kind of not unlike what

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Speaker 1: we're seeing in the nineteen sixties in China. I think yeah, yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a very explicit like one one of the things

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Speaker 1: well yeah, well one of the things that is just

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Speaker 1: going on during the Cultural Revolution. Also, Yeah, it's like

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Speaker 1: that they have that they have this sort of re

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Speaker 1: education through labor. The thing that starts and it gets

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Speaker 1: it does get. Yeah, Like I've seen conflicting accounts of

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Speaker 1: the extent to which like people were directly targeted for

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Speaker 1: being gay. It definitely did happen. And there's yeah, and

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Speaker 1: you get a lot of this sort of same thing

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Speaker 1: of like if people are like spiritually unpear and like

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Speaker 1: they have to be like re educated and they have

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Speaker 1: to be sort of like turned into like proper like subjection.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of especially like there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: sort of like there's a lot of people like being

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Speaker 1: forced to hold science to say sodomite and ship yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is funnily enough. And the weird part about this

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Speaker 1: is that like in the Chinese case, so the Cultural

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Speaker 1: Revolution is like not a great time to be gay,

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Speaker 1: but there's also this thing. There's this thing kind of

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Speaker 1: like it's kind of like like Nies Berlin, where like

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Speaker 1: there are there is some really bad stuff that happens,

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Speaker 1: but there's also this sort of like there's a kind

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Speaker 1: of general political chaos so you can get away with

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Speaker 1: some stuff. Two that there's actually there's another campaign in

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Speaker 1: China and starts about three Yeah, it's called the Strike

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Speaker 1: Hard Campaign. Interestingly, there's there's actually two Strike Hard campaign.

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Speaker 1: So there's there's one of the eighties that's supposed to

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Speaker 1: be this campaign against like crime and stuff, and so

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Speaker 1: like they target a bunch of people who are like

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Speaker 1: suppsed to be like social criminals, and then that winds

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Speaker 1: up being a lot of like there's this there are

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Speaker 1: just mass arrest of gay people. They're in prison for

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Speaker 1: a very very long time. Um yeah, under Although that

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Speaker 1: one's also interesting because it's like you have very similar

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Speaker 1: kind of reasoning, but it's like but it's in this

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Speaker 1: sort of like dang like kind of revolutionary like phase

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Speaker 1: where it's like instead of being instead of being a

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Speaker 1: day to the revolution, they're like sort of a danger

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Speaker 1: to like traditional Chinese values, which is interesting and bleak. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: because like this is one of the one of the

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Speaker 1: things happens in China. Write is it like in in

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Speaker 1: you know, there there is an attempt to sort of

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Speaker 1: do more egalitarian like gender relations during the Dan culture

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Speaker 1: revolution between the sort of like revolutionary period and then

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Speaker 1: when Dane takes power, part of this thing is like no,

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Speaker 1: we're going back to traditional gender relations, like all of

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Speaker 1: this egalitarian stuff was a mistake and like this is

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Speaker 1: part this is part of whether when child policy comes from.

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Speaker 1: But then also you get a really homophobic crackdown in

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Speaker 1: like eighty three, like like three or four years after

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Speaker 1: sort of like he's actually, weirdly, almost exactly the same

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Speaker 1: time that like the real sort of market reforms hit

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Speaker 1: like like it's it's it's like a year later is

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Speaker 1: when the package that's sort of like really brings the

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Speaker 1: market back and trying to happens. Is I know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's a very weird. Yeah, we we have gotten gotten

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Speaker 1: very off topic, but it's it's a very weird and

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Speaker 1: interesting sort of like social flip that happens. Yeah, I'm sure,

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Speaker 1: and that definitely makes me want to read more about

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Speaker 1: like China during this period. Yeah, well, I think it's interesting,

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Speaker 1: Like everything you're talking about earlier that is interested, Like

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Speaker 1: it's similar to me as I've talked to like people

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Speaker 1: from Vietnam and they have a very similar story about

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Speaker 1: like like, I mean, there was homophobia before, but they

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Speaker 1: have a very similar story to the Cuban story about

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Speaker 1: how like there is a sort of importation of like

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Speaker 1: Soviet homophobia and how that made everything like when that did.

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Speaker 1: This starts out between the eighties and it gets just

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Speaker 1: like significantly worse. Yeah, no, it's uh and in Cuba,

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Speaker 1: um what's it called? Like the whole idea that this

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Speaker 1: is a form of bourgeois degeneracy and the gayness gayness

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Speaker 1: is specifically bourgeois is like was really surprising to me

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Speaker 1: as I dug into this, Like there's comics I in

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Speaker 1: this thing I wrote, I include a couple of them,

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Speaker 1: but it's basically like it's put up there with wanting

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Speaker 1: to be in so leave it at like free society

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Speaker 1: in the West, and so the West is it's it's

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Speaker 1: almost like a factionary mean it is really, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's like it's it's like a very weird, weird mirror

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Speaker 1: of like far right discourse because it's like the degeneracy

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Speaker 1: of the West. Meanwhile, here we have masculine values. I mean,

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Speaker 1: did you even see that type of rhetoric with we

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Speaker 1: were talking about Alexander Dugan recently and he he is.

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Speaker 1: I suppose there's a lot of that type of stuff

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Speaker 1: as as as well as someone who is you know,

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Speaker 1: a fascist writer who's pulled on some of the national

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Speaker 1: Bolshevik type stuff before. Um, yeah, you can attack attack

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Speaker 1: gayness as it's like a sign of liberalism in the

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Speaker 1: West as like this like almost like a bourgeois tendency. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I forget, I forget who it was. There was someone

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Speaker 1: on Twitter who was talking about there's like it's it's

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Speaker 1: very interesting thing like yeah like in in like in

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Speaker 1: the US, like I don't know, like being like for

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Speaker 1: a very very long time. It's so kind of now

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Speaker 1: you get this ross like like being gay like is

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Speaker 1: is you know, like being queer as a sign of

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Speaker 1: like you're a communist and you're like like a degenerate communists,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. And then you go to like Vietnam and

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Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, this prace is gay there. They're they're

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Speaker 1: they're degenerate Western like kind of revolutionary and it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's like it's always the same. The actual sort

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Speaker 1: of like homophobic thing is the same. It's just like

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Speaker 1: the signs are flipped of like what the other is

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Speaker 1: and who you can accuse them most sort of having

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Speaker 1: the values of I wonder if the unifying factor here

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Speaker 1: is and this is something I'm thinking of a lot,

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Speaker 1: a lot because of Other's book, which is that I

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Speaker 1: mean greatness as a disease, Yeah, an illness and so

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Speaker 1: like that. So it allows you to glump onto it

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Speaker 1: anything you don't like from your own ideological prism. So

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Speaker 1: I also wonder a lot about how nationalism plays into it,

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Speaker 1: because that's one of the things that happens in a

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Speaker 1: lot of these sort of revolutionary projects is like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like the sort of ideal of the new man is

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Speaker 1: sort of like a communist thing, but it's also like

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Speaker 1: very specifically something that you get with like with nationalist revolutions,

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Speaker 1: where it's like, well, okay, so we like we we

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Speaker 1: we have like like part of part of it, like

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Speaker 1: the basis of our national identity is like we are

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Speaker 1: these like incredibly sort of masculine hard man or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And then this like I don't know, it strikes me.

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Speaker 1: It strikes me. It's interesting that like the further that

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Speaker 1: sort of nationalism becomes entangled in like these revolution ary projects,

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Speaker 1: like the more you start to see this kind of stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And and definitely part of this is nationalism because it's

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Speaker 1: it's not just homophobia in Cuba in this context of

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Speaker 1: the sixties, it's not just homophobia for the sake of homophobia.

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Speaker 1: So there is that too, but it's it's also that

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Speaker 1: I don't think Fiddel Castro is entirely lying when he

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Speaker 1: says that it was part of the need to mobilize

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Speaker 1: as much of society as possible for the economy. What's

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Speaker 1: happening in Cuba in the nineteen sixties is basically the

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Speaker 1: economy is going into a meltdown. Um, the economic policies

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Speaker 1: that they're enacting have not been working. They've earned through

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Speaker 1: any surplus they had, including good will surpluses and a

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Speaker 1: couple of respects. Uh. And I think that like some

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Speaker 1: people point to like the new Man and people will

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Speaker 1: work for moral incentives not material incentives, as just this

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Speaker 1: naive thing. And then I think the most convincing counter

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Speaker 1: argument is they didn't have anything else to incentivize people with. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: people people make this this this is a this is

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Speaker 1: like basically it's an identical like argument that you get

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Speaker 1: about the culture Revolution, where like you start to see

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Speaker 1: these like incentives are like MAO will like give you

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Speaker 1: a mango or something, or like you have these like

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Speaker 1: pins that you get and and like it. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just it's it's very it's like the same thing

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Speaker 1: of like you have these rewards that are sort of

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Speaker 1: like yeah, they're sort of like spiritual almost or sort

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Speaker 1: of like spiritual ideological rewards, and then eventually like kind

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Speaker 1: of just stops working because it turns out that's not

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Speaker 1: actually a very good basis for economic system. Uh. Do

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Speaker 1: you guys know the old joke about Shake Givada when

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Speaker 1: he was given a sign to become the Minister of

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Speaker 1: the Bank. I don't know the joke. I know the

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Speaker 1: thing about like he was my my my vague memory

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Speaker 1: is like the story that I hear was like he

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Speaker 1: signed his name like really sloppy on it because he

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Speaker 1: was piste off that like he had to put his

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Speaker 1: face on money or something. But I have no idea

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Speaker 1: that's that's that's that part's actually true. He did. He

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Speaker 1: he hated money so much he refused to sign his

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Speaker 1: actual name. He just signed his nickname as like just

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Speaker 1: to show his disdain for for for economics. But at

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Speaker 1: a meeting the old jokeos. And this is something that

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Speaker 1: Chap apparently like to tell as well, even if it's

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Speaker 1: not necessarily true that at the meeting where they were

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Speaker 1: deciding who's going to become the Minister of what, uh,

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Speaker 1: they said, uh, who here is an economist And he

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Speaker 1: raises his hand and everyone goes to chat. But you're

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Speaker 1: a doctor, You're not an economist, he says, Oh, I

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Speaker 1: thought you asked for a communist staff, Like, so yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: I mean cha. And and I think I've heard arguments.

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Speaker 1: I'm not an expert on chat, but I've heard that

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Speaker 1: he was retually pretty heavily influenced by China compared to

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Speaker 1: the USS are closer to China. Yeah, that actually that

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Speaker 1: actually gets I make I think. I think I guess

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Speaker 1: that kind of makes sense given his sort of like

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Speaker 1: like the way his military strategy seems to have worked,

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Speaker 1: which is very very much like a lot closer to

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Speaker 1: sort of like nowas strategy than well, okay, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna put Soviet strategy and quotation marks because oh

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Speaker 1: my god, is there like I have I have a

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Speaker 1: very negative, a very dim view of of sort of

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Speaker 1: the military strategy of people who are of like guerrilla

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Speaker 1: organizations who are taking their military trying directly from the

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Speaker 1: Soviet Union. It's a lot of like we're gonna build

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Speaker 1: up one giant I mean in a place and one

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Speaker 1: day they're going to roll into the capital and it's

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Speaker 1: like this, okay state, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes that

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Speaker 1: makes sense. Um, okay, yeah, raining raining myself in a

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Speaker 1: little bit. We have these basically labor camps that gay

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Speaker 1: people are getting put into. We have kind of a

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Speaker 1: material basis for it, which is and this is one

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Speaker 1: of the things that like people actually use as a

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Speaker 1: defense of sort of like like, well, we had to

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Speaker 1: put these people in these camps because of our material conditions,

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Speaker 1: which I think, like I feel like that makes it worse.

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Speaker 1: Like I feel like in the fact that there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a material basis for your homophobia like makes it

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Speaker 1: harder to get rid of and makes it like a

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Speaker 1: more entrenched part of the system, which I don't know,

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Speaker 1: bizarre defense to me, But yeah, can we talk a

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Speaker 1: bit about like how how did this actually end and

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Speaker 1: to what extent did it end and did it sort

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Speaker 1: of like have this like half life afterwards? Sure? So,

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Speaker 1: so these last for a couple of years, This is

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Speaker 1: not like a flash in the pan like oops are

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Speaker 1: bad kind of like you know, six months in. This

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Speaker 1: is like a series of multiple work camps across the

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Speaker 1: province of come Away, which is in central Cuba, and

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Speaker 1: they last for three years, and there's pushback during this period,

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Speaker 1: domestics back, international pushback, like people have been complaining about

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Speaker 1: it for exactly what the definitive thing that got them

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Speaker 1: the few mock closed specifically close or the UNI that

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Speaker 1: is Meli, that is the IU, the Ala Prus young

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Speaker 1: military units to aid production. So the Umak themselves, which

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Speaker 1: are open from nineteen sixty eight, they do eventually get

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Speaker 1: close and sixty eight people are free, you know, like

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Speaker 1: you know, the camps are closed and uh people are

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Speaker 1: sent home and um there are varying stories. I have

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Speaker 1: looked through like trades, trying to trace as many stories

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Speaker 1: as I can get um uh and even even people

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Speaker 1: who like we're participants have different stories. So like I

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Speaker 1: remember Carlos Franki, who was one of a position figure.

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Speaker 1: He has one story that centers himself in the closure.

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Speaker 1: Other stories say that it was the international pressure. Other

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Speaker 1: stories say that it was the Right Writers and Artists Union,

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Speaker 1: the official one the state on the NIAC, which filed

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Speaker 1: enough complaints and that convinced Fidel to get it closed down. Um,

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Speaker 1: that anecdote is actually from Maddie Glass Iglesias, Dad Josse Lexias,

351
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Speaker 1: who wrote about Yeah, his grandfather, his grands his communist grandfather. Um.

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Speaker 1: But he who actual who wrote a book about the sixties.

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Speaker 1: He's an interesting guy. But anyway, so the camps get

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Speaker 1: closed one way or another, and I don't think we're

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Speaker 1: gonna ever know the definitive answer until like there's actually

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Speaker 1: be classification. But they're closed. But the thing is, um,

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Speaker 1: while the camps get closed, we have reports from different people,

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Speaker 1: including some of the sources that are used as apologia

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Speaker 1: for the MOP saying wait wait wait, social disgrace units

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Speaker 1: he existing well into the early nineties seventies, and so

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Speaker 1: we do have sporadic reports of things like this happening

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Speaker 1: where seminarist or sense to religious people for for being

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Speaker 1: atheists or started for not being atheists. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: gay people are being sent other people mighty wands. So

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Speaker 1: people who spoke smoke pot, you know, anyone who's seen

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Speaker 1: as like not conforming into this ideal new man, you're

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Speaker 1: sent there and the labor is supposed to reform you.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's a key part of this. It's not

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Speaker 1: just labor as punishment's labor as ideological reform. There's even

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Speaker 1: one of the people, some of the people who wouldn't camp,

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Speaker 1: say that there was a sign that says work will

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Speaker 1: make you men Jesus. Oh no, yeah, like work will

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Speaker 1: set you free. Yeah, it's uh so, so the camps

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Speaker 1: do contain seem to continue and um, it's it definitely

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Speaker 1: seems to be the case that, uh, you know, gay

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Speaker 1: people do continue to be arrested for being gay, even

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Speaker 1: though the intensity of this does die down by the

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Speaker 1: night and seventies. There's something pretty bad that also happens

379
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Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, but it's a slightly different project.

380
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Speaker 1: It's not as centered on force labor. So yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I guess so the yeah, the the thing that you

382
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 1: wrote this piece about that I actually probably mentioned that

383
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Speaker 1: is one of the things we're talking about. Is you

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Speaker 1: you wrote a very long piece about um called factually Based,

385
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,399
Speaker 1: which is about sort of the kind of mythology that

386
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 1: developed in the US about like how these camps were

387
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 1: closed and the sort of like apology around it. And

388
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Speaker 1: a lot of this is based on Leslie Feinberg, which

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Speaker 1: is depressing in a lot. Leslie Feinberg, people who don't know,

390
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 1: is like one of one of the most important like

391
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Speaker 1: trans authors ever wrote Stone which Blues, which is like

392
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Speaker 1: if you've ever been in like any sort of like

393
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:03,439
Speaker 1: queerer trand scene, you probably know about or possibly have

394
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 1: read and she rout mm hmm, not a great account

395
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Speaker 1: of this. Yeah, do you want to talk a bit

396
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 1: about what what this was and how people have served

397
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 1: used it in different ways? Sure? So, Like for years

398
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: I heard like arguments from this book and I didn't

399
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 1: know they were from this. I just saw people sharing

400
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: online online and thinking, where the hell are people getting this?

401
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,239
Speaker 1: This is not this is not true, And eventually I

402
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 1: find out that it's It dates back to this book

403
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,439
Speaker 1: called Rainbow Solidarity and Defensive Cuba by Leslie Finberg, was

404
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:46,159
Speaker 1: written mid to late two thousand's. Um. Really, it's not

405
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: a book. It's a compilation of articles which Fineberg wrote

406
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 1: for as part of the Lavender and Read series for

407
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 1: This World's Workers World newspaper, which is like this Marci

408
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,439
Speaker 1: I sect which fine Birds have been a part of.

409
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 1: UM real real Weirdos like they those people like they

410
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: have positions that are like bizarre even by the standards

411
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 1: of like modern tankies, like they're they're like the these

412
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 1: are people who are like hard line on defending the

413
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: DIRG in Ethiopia, which is like stuff that's weird enough

414
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: that like most most modern like idea like hardline ideological

415
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: stalinists don't know what this is, don't even know what

416
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: this is or won't defend it because it's like because

417
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: like most Ethiopian mark sister, like this was fucked, like

418
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: it's it's Yeah. Also that this is every thing about

419
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: these guys. So if you know about the PSL, the

420
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 1: Party of Socialist Liberation, they emerged from a split with

421
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: the WWP, Yeah, because the it was the w w

422
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 1: P was too moderate or something. Yeah, my my my

423
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 1: memory of it was it was a split about whether

424
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: whether or not you should take money from North Korea.

425
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if

426
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: that's a percent of that that that's my memory of

427
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,959
Speaker 1: the last time I about it. So these are who

428
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: these guys are. Yeah, no, no, I mean there's a

429
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: reason that PSL and WWP seemed to have very similar lines.

430
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: Um so so anyway, so I'm I finally get this book.

431
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: I ordered second hand, so not giving anyone royalties. Um,

432
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 1: and I get the book and it starts like arguing,

433
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 1: you know, trying to you know, defend the track record

434
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: of the revolution. And really it's like, basically, it seems

435
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: that this book and an article that came out before

436
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 1: any of Finbers articles, an article by John Hilson in

437
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 1: the early two thousands are kind of a response to

438
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 1: how as the kind of like how LGBT rights were

439
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: treated in the mainstream in like the United States was shifting.

440
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: There was a like less homophobia movement towards more recognition

441
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 1: of rights in the two thousands, and in that context,

442
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: he was Cubist track record on LGBT rights, which is

443
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: pretty pretty add you know, was getting hammered. And so

444
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: they're writing this as a response to that. And Feinberg

445
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: Warrens in the introduction, don't expect a criticism of Cuba

446
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 1: in this book. It's factually based, but you know, then

447
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 1: I put it in quotes factually based, but uh, you know,

448
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: it's it's factually based, but it's you know, where this is.

449
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 1: It's basically meant his counter propaganda to the criticisms and

450
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: the section that everyone quotes. I mean the book is

451
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: the book isn't that long. It thinks like a hundred pages.

452
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: I have it over here. Um, it's like a hundred

453
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 1: pages long. It's all these different articles. Um. The section

454
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: that most people quote is actually like two or three pages.

455
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 1: It's this very short section on the map, and Uh

456
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: Feinberg talks about the MOP and sites basically three people

457
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,959
Speaker 1: to talk about it. Basically, one one of those sources

458
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 1: is Ignacio ramon It, who is this foreign journalist who

459
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: interviews Fidel and gave Fidel the opportunity to give these

460
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: explanations and defenses of his policies, where basically Fidel Uh, Basically,

461
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: Fidel defends it as a part of the necessity of

462
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: mobilizing the entire country in the face of the crisis

463
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,719
Speaker 1: that it felt that was facing in the nineteen sixties

464
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: from the United States, so it needed to mobilize everyone.

465
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: It was part of the economic mobilization. And it was

466
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 1: almost a favor to gay people because they couldn't go

467
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: into the military because there was too much homophobian the military.

468
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: So they almost did them a favor by giving them

469
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: sending them off to do labor that wasn't with the

470
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: military in these nice little you know, economic productive units,

471
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: and then you know, oh there was some use, there

472
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: was some stuff, so we shut them down. Um. And

473
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: this is before Fidel actually admitted that there was persecution

474
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: of LGBT people in Cuba under his watch, which comes

475
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: in like interview. So this is like his version of

476
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: things right before then, and that's what Feinberg sites. Another

477
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: of the sources is Cardinal and Nest Carnal, who I'm

478
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: happy to expand on him. The short version is that

479
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: into gard Danel is going around Cuba in nine and

480
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: nine one for two short trips, and he's just basically

481
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: writing down everything and anything people tell him. Some of

482
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: it's very critical, some of it's very supportive. He's not

483
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: actually claiming anything is factual. He's saying, I am in Cuba.

484
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: This is what people are telling me. Make up your

485
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: own minds. Like that is his stense, but is presented

486
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: as this, uh like it's not critically analyzed at all.

487
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 1: And it's these two separate stories. One of them is

488
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: that a hundred Communist youth members infiltrated the camps on

489
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 1: hearing that there were abuses there, and they wrote reports

490
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 1: saying that there were abuses, so the camps were shut down.

491
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: And then there's the separate story, also source to Cardinal

492
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: by Feinberg, that Fidel personally infiltrates the camps incognito. And

493
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: then there is this like guard who was going to

494
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: like cut the cord on his hammock to wake him

495
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: up and get him force him to work, and Fidel

496
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: revealed him elf and and you know, almost almost like

497
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: why dost thou persecute me? Saul? A kind of deal,

498
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 1: like very it sounds like a very biblical story, so

499
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: it's it's a good yard, but it's not doesn't sound

500
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: very serious. And also the two stories kind to contradict

501
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: each other. Why does Fadel have to infiltrate if the

502
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: hundred communist youth members have gone, you know, or vice versa,

503
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: you know, you don't. Yeah, it's really weird, like like

504
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: why why would there be both like both of them,

505
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 1: you can't present both of them as true at the

506
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: same time, like they they're they're they're mutually contradictory accounts

507
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: of how this happens, very very weird, exactly, and and

508
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: and in in Cardinal, they're not even presented back to

509
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: back the hundred Communist youth members is literally a dude

510
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: he saw on the street who told him this. It's

511
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: a paragraph and that's it, Like, we don't have any

512
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,479
Speaker 1: other context. The other story that Fiddel infiltrating is shared

513
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: is slight sounds slightly more credible if you really want

514
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: to believe it, but then if you actually read into it,

515
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: it's more like it doesn't. It also does no water. Yeah,

516
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: it's like a guy heard from another guy. Like it's

517
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: it's yeah, he's he he's a guard. It is a

518
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: guard narrating this. But he like he talks about what

519
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: he saw up until like half into the paragraph, and

520
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: then the rest is clearly implied to be stopped stuff

521
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: he heard about but wasn't actually present for. And Fineberg

522
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: presents him as a witness of both. So anyway, so

523
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: that's that's Fineberg's whole defense, Like basically, Fidel had no

524
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: idea that we're abuses, even though the very existence of

525
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: the camps themselves were abuses, and then but they were

526
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: shut down and everything's hunky dory, you know. That's that's

527
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,479
Speaker 1: Fineberg's defense. And then of course the third thing is

528
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: that she refers both citations to Hilson, which I can

529
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: get into a second, but just I think part of

530
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: the problem is that Finberg didn't actually read Cardinal. Yeah,

531
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: so Hilson. Hilson is another activists. I'm not sure if

532
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: he's LGBT and not like that that front of me

533
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: list clear, but he was another activist. He died very

534
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 1: early in the two thousands, I think um from from cancer.

535
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: He uh, but he wrote an article that cites card

536
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: donal and cites both sections that Feinberg later sites and

537
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: not more, not less. And I think what's what happened

538
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: was that Fineberg basically goes to this article which basically

539
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: makes more or less makes the kind of arguments that

540
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: Fineberg is already making in her in her own work.

541
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: But m what what when when she sees things that

542
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: seem to exculpat the Cuban government, she basically does copy

543
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: paste and a little parenthesis to give credit to Hilson

544
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: and then moves on right, she doesn't actually read Hilson.

545
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: Hilsen even like treats it a little more cautiously than Fineberg,

546
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 1: even though not sufficiently cautiously. And I think that that

547
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: explains why and the least this is a generous interpretation.

548
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 1: Feinberg doesn't actually address the fact that in her your

549
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: own exculpatory source, there's talk of other camps, like at

550
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: the time Cardinal is like I am going to the camps.

551
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: I'm visiting the camps. There are camps here, like you know,

552
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: So it doesn't it doesn't make sense unless maybe Fineberg

553
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: didn't read the book, like just like copied and paste

554
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: and didn't really think about it, yeah, or or just

555
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: like went and found the one session that that was

556
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: useful and then just read that part. Yeah, which yeah,

557
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: not not a great way to do history, as it

558
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: turns out. Yeah, yeah, I will do my one return

559
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: to marks moment in this interview, which is to say,

560
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: ruthless critique of all that exists, things that you generally support,

561
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: because otherwise you wind up with this stuff. Yeah. Yeah,

562
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's done the round. This thing has

563
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: been going around around and around on the internet for

564
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: years and years. Yeah, and I guess we should also

565
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,239
Speaker 1: say that, like, yeah, this is this is the thing

566
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: that happens with like any any like every one of

567
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: these like every one of the social country you've been

568
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: talking about, Like you will get people who basically are

569
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: like like, hey, look at this bad thing. We're gonna

570
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: But people who are like, I don't know, you get yeah,

571
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: you get like Cuban right wingers who are like also

572
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: unbelievably homophobic who suddenly like discover a passion for gay

573
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: rights because look at these abuses and it's like, yeah,

574
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, it sucks it, Yeah, I mean

575
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: I think it genuinely is a part of the reason

576
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: why this version becomes like a memory that like like

577
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: this for these sort of versions of the story, which

578
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: like don't have are not like really credible, like become

579
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: sort of entrenched in the sort of like socialist memory

580
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: of of this period in the US because it's like, well, okay,

581
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: so so on. On the one hand, you have a

582
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: bunch of sort of like like incredible fanatical right wingers

583
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: talking about what was going on, and then you have like, hey,

584
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: here's another story from a socialists, like well, we're gonna

585
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: believe the socialist version. It's like, well, neither of these

586
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: people like not like but both of these groups like

587
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: have an incredibly clear agenda going into what they're doing,

588
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: and so you have to sort of like actually sift

589
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: through the stuff yourself. Otherwise you weird wind up with

590
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: very very weird and distorted histories. Yeah, and and people

591
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: just really want to believe it. I mean, I think

592
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: that's that's my conclusion. Like I when I was originally

593
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: researching for this, I was I was pissed, Like I

594
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: was like, this is these are just not true. How

595
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: could someone publish this? You know, it's really angry. And

596
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: I kept trying to write that like a piece or

597
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: based on that, and I keep kept stopping and like

598
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: this is not the right approach, This is not the

599
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: right Like I kept stopping myself, and then I finally like,

600
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: try to, okay, put my shelf self in Fineberg's shoes.

601
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: If I was you know, really loved you know, if

602
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: I was like as enamored as Fineberg was everyone and

603
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: everything involved in the Cuban Revolution, and at the same

604
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: time one a member of a persecuted group, right, you know,

605
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: and I really wanted to swear this circle like and

606
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 1: I saw something to let me do that. I would

607
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: probably also just glimb onto it and just not really

608
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: try and not think about it too much for the

609
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: same reason, right, you want, you know, our defenses are

610
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: a low one, it's something we want to believe. Yeah,

611
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: this is there is an enormous amount of stuff that

612
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: just sort of people, I mean just yeah, like everyone

613
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: has a bunch of stuff that they believe because they wanted,

614
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: they want it to be true. Like it's it's not

615
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: like like we're we're we're we're we're being hard on

616
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: the socialist here, but like, I don't know, like this

617
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: is why half of the people who believe Q shit

618
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: believe it, right, Like it's it's it's, it's it's it's

619
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: the thing they want to believe, and I think they

620
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: sort of have to believe for the ideology to function.

621
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 1: And so it's like it's not like I don't know,

622
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's. It's not that much different than

623
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: like and Paul Wolfowitz like still thinking the Iraq war

624
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: works or something, right, Like it's it's it's, it's, it's

625
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: it's the thing you have to believe in order to

626
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: not like have to sort of process the complications of

627
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: what you're supporting. Yeah, so I think, yeah, everything I

628
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: want to talk about sort of moving past this is

629
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: about the stuff that's been happening recently and about how

630
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: stuff got better in Cuba, because this is I like,

631
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: this is this is one of the places where like

632
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: things actually did genuinely get a lot better than like

633
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: it was. And I want to talk a bit about

634
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 1: like how that happened before we get to sort of

635
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: the stuff that's been happening in the last week or so. Yeah,

636
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm happy to get into happier terror. Yeah,

637
00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: it sucks, like, oh god, it's it's definitely dumer stuff

638
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 1: to always think about the sixties of the um. So

639
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: after the sixties, it did get pretty It was pretty

640
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 1: bad in the nineteen seventies too. There was a purge

641
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 1: of education and culture of anyone LGBT or suspective being LGBT,

642
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: because the ideas that they would recruit and influence and

643
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: corrupt the miners. And but yeah, uh so, I can

644
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: probably do an article comparing the Culture and Education Congress

645
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: in seventy one in Cuba with with with policies in

646
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,439
Speaker 1: the United States right now. Um, But then things start

647
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: to get better in the nineteen eighties a little bit

648
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: like the the throttles pulled back. It's not great, but

649
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's not terrible as terrible as it was,

650
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: And then from the late nineteen eighties into the nineteen

651
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: nineties we really see to see start to see a

652
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: sea change, both in terms of popular culture and in

653
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: terms of the of state policy. And of course they're

654
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: intertwined because the who who who allows films to be

655
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 1: put on in theaters the state, they owned all the theaters,

656
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: so um in terms of culture. Actually know one of

657
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: the people who had a play played a key role

658
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: in this, which is Seneta Bas And Seneta Bas is

659
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: this writer from a small town in Cuba, small village,

660
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 1: and he goes to heaven and he's he's a writer

661
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: and artist, and he wrote this short story about this

662
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: platonic relationship between a patriotic gay man and a patriotic

663
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: human heterosexual member of the communist youth who develop a

664
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: respect for each other. And it's like, even though like

665
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: the gay man is alienated from state policies because of

666
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: the persecution of LGBT people, he actually knows a lot

667
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: more about history and culturing Cuba than the heterosexual guy

668
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: who's raw ra revolution but doesn't actually know like all

669
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: these important writers and artists and and things like that

670
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 1: that are also important for Cuban national identity. That When

671
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: that was first read in the Castable Samericas, which is

672
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 1: like this huge building for human culture, people wept just openly.

673
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: And then it was made into a movie called So

674
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: Strawberry and Chocolate. I can explain the type people want,

675
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: but basically it basically it's the same story. It's expanded

676
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: a bit because the original was short story, and you

677
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: can actually get it in the United States. I think

678
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 1: Paramount bought the rights for distribution. Fox maybe bought the rights.

679
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it was came out in and

680
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: it was a big turning point for public public perception, right. Um.

681
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 1: Actually have a friend of mine was who who knows

682
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: who knows? The offer? He was stopped at his building

683
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: and this the wife of a colonel who lives in

684
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: this building says, my husband wants to see my friends,

685
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: like would you what did I do? It goes up

686
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: to the colonel's house. The colonel says that you want

687
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: coffe or anything? I said. My friends says no. The

688
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 1: colonel says, explained to me this film that's come out recently,

689
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: because the colonel wasn't gonna see it in theaters. Then

690
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: my friend explains the movie and guy says no, no no,

691
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,479
Speaker 1: no explain everything. So basically my friend does a scene

692
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: by seeing synopsis for memory, and after like an hour

693
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 1: and change in this guy's house, the Colonel's just sitting

694
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: there not saying anything. He said, If I understood this

695
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: and seeing this earlier, things might have been different, like

696
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: like thank you. It's it's a huge turning point culturally,

697
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: and then politically you also have Maria la castro So.

698
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: Maria la castro is daughter of Rool castro So, niece

699
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: of Fidel, and she from within the government, using her

700
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 1: position of privilege, really starts to push for better LGBT

701
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: policies for resil GBP people in better know laws and

702
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 1: runs and she at the head of the Sentesex, which

703
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: is the National Center for Sex Education. She really starts

704
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: to spearhead and improvement, and we start to see the

705
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties and two thousand's not just a pulling back

706
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: of persecution, at least official persecution. You know, you can

707
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 1: still have informal prosecute level of jobs. But you also

708
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: start to see things like l trans people can have

709
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,919
Speaker 1: gender firming surgery backed by the state, you know, free

710
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: of cost, Like all these sorts of different protections and

711
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: policies like the SENTISEX will if there's like a homophobic

712
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 1: incident to the school, they can send out somebody to

713
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: give a talk and say, this is why persecuting someone

714
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: for their gender identity or the sexual orientation is wrong.

715
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 1: But but but you really see a shift in the

716
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: position of the state. And that's not just Mariella. I

717
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 1: don't want to make it about Mariella, but behind her

718
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: is of course all these other these LGBT people who

719
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: would not be in the position to demand this for themselves.

720
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 1: But she definitely spearheads this and I think she deserves

721
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: some merit for that. Yeah, it's interesting that they have

722
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: like that they have a level of sort of buying

723
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 1: from the state, because I think, like that doesn't happen

724
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: in like China or Vietnam, and like you know, I

725
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: mean like Vietnam, like there has actually been stuff there

726
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: and the last like year where there's been a lot

727
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: of real progress, but like they like literally one month

728
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 1: ago the government was like we're going to declare almost

729
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: axuality no longer like a mental illness, and like that's

730
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: sort of just like a month ago, yeah, yeah, yeah,

731
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: and then there's only people like cool people have been

732
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: fighting for in Vietnam for like a long time. But

733
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: like and even then, like there's this whole thing there

734
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: where like people like you get you get this because

735
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: you talked to medical people in like you start to doctors,

736
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 1: you get this thing where like, well, okay, so there's

737
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: like real and the other thing, the thing that is

738
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 1: outlawed conversion therapy. But if you talk to doctors about

739
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:37,919
Speaker 1: the doctors are like, well, there are real gay gay

740
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 1: people and there are fake gay people, and the real

741
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: gay people you can't do conversion therapy on. But but

742
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,839
Speaker 1: this rule there, but these guys are like, this ruling

743
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: only covers the real gay people, doesn't cover the fake

744
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 1: gay people because the conversion therapy like it's it's a disaster,

745
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: and like I I don't know, like it's and like

746
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,879
Speaker 1: China also has been really bleak. Like I'm just gonna

747
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: you're talking about a lot about sort of like the

748
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: effect the media has on it. I'm gonna read this

749
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: thing from the Chinese General Rules for Television Drama Content

750
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: Production from ples and fifteen, which Okay, I've seen conflicting things,

751
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: but I think this is still in effect. If it's

752
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 1: not still in effect, it was only reversed in one,

753
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: but I think it's still in effect. And also there

754
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: have been new sort of guidelines have been put out

755
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: from movies that are about like I mean the specifically

756
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: the stuff are like you you can't have gay men

757
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: in movies. You can't have men they were to effeminate

758
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: in movies, Like you can't have men that look like

759
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 1: they're cross dressing in movies. I'm gonna read this thing

760
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: from the TV code. Um so this is this is

761
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: stuff that he says is explicitly is not to be shown.

762
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 1: Content which depicts or portrays unnatural sexual relations and actions

763
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 1: such as incests, homosexuality, perversion, sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual violence, etcetera.

764
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: This is Vision Best Version two Rission three. Content which

765
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: portrays and promulgates unhealthy perspectives on marriage and married loves

766
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: such as extra marital love, one night stands, free love, etcetera.

767
00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: Sorry try guys not allowed. Yeah no, like it's like

768
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: it's oh god, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna do a

769
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 1: tray guys joke every episode for a down never never

770
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: off the recording. The French are surely complaining that the

771
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: ban on cheating on your wife is an imposition on

772
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: their culture. Yeah, definitely, that's actually extremely racist against the French.

773
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: The actually he said it doesn't mention I was gonna

774
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: make up I was gonna make a French film pedophilia joke.

775
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: But it doesn't actually ban it bands incests, but it

776
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: doesn't actually ban like that. I mean, I think the

777
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: on I think I on pedophile I think I think

778
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 1: it's a different section of the code that I didn't

779
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: coffee here. But yeah, and I think part of what

780
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: was going on there was like like there wasn't like

781
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I think things have gotten like it the

782
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:56,959
Speaker 1: law that was being used to arrest like gay people

783
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 1: in China like was dayballish in the nineties, but like

784
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 1: and like there was a culture shift, but it didn't

785
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 1: like the state decided it was going to do the

786
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 1: same thing the US state which is doing, which is

787
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: like do this sort of backlash to it, and it didn't.

788
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: Like that kind of stuff didn't happen, which is I

789
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: think really bleak. But also like is genuinely is a

790
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: thing that like like yeah, like the good good good

791
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 1: for good for the Cuban people, good for Cuba, like glad,

792
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: glad you all are doing this because like mador Win. Yeah,

793
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 1: because because it because you know, like you can you

794
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: can see what happens when like this doesn't happen, which

795
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: is all of this bullshit that exists in a lot

796
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: of the other sort of post Soviet like or post

797
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: communist countries. Yeah, I think that Cuba would have done

798
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: it eventually, but I think that Mariela definitely just sped

799
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 1: it along. Like there's there's definitely a problem of a

800
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 1: cult of Mariella, where like abroad where it's like all

801
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 1: all things be great, be due to Mariella. It's like

802
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: completely cuts out all the people behind her, you know

803
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: who something like please ask ask your uncle. That's for me.

804
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: I gotta get married someday. But you know, but at

805
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: the same time, I think we can't cut around of

806
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 1: the story either. Yeah, and that gets us to, well,

807
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: I guess, I guess you're starting quitting that tea first.

808
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, there's the new family code that's passed. Which

809
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: also I do want to mention this because I don't

810
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: think like people don't even know this when I tell

811
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: them about this, about neither China nor Vietnam is game

812
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: in neither tryinga nor Vietnam is game marriage legal. And

813
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who think that the repeal

814
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: that happened in Vietnam legalized gay marriage, and that's not

815
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: what happens. Like the thing that it did is you

816
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 1: will no longer be arrested for having your own unofficial marriage,

817
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: which is a thing that could happen. But this is this,

818
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,399
Speaker 1: this is this is not this is not the thing

819
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 1: that is happening in Cuba. Like I see those are

820
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: people a lot where like something good will happen in

821
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 1: Cuba and people will prorect it onto like China, and

822
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: it's like that's no, like they're not the same place,

823
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: Like don't, don't, don't do this with this stuff. Don't

824
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: project the Cuban medical system onto the Chinese medical system.

825
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: They're not the same. Please stop. Yeah yeah, yeah, okay,

826
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, going on to stuff that's good and this stuff,

827
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: but on also the sort of like yeah, so can

828
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: we talk a bit about like what talk about like

829
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: the nineteen referendum and the sort of like the stuff

830
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: about sort of how do you like the story of

831
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: how the stuff that's happening now didn't happen in yeah happening. Yeah,

832
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: so so when the in the Raoul Castro who who

833
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: took over after fidel Um. He began using a bunch

834
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: of referendums decide major things, major policy changes, and using

835
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 1: referendums kind of just till like because like the because

836
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 1: the Nationalist police basically reberen stamp committee like referendums really

837
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: took to the four as a way to like channelize,

838
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: channel support and you know, show popular acquiescence to major

839
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: changes among the constitution. So as part of the they

840
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 1: did a draft constitution. They debated it their debase all

841
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: around the country at local levels, in in in in

842
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 1: neighborhoods and workplaces, and people gave feedback the um marriage

843
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: equality and and and things connected to it, which we

844
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: can get into in a second. These were part of

845
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: for the most part, part of the twenty nineteen Constitution,

846
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: but there was a lot of pushback. Um, Like, obviously,

847
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: if if the state has been repressing LGBT people for decades,

848
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: that part of their coalition just doesn't stop overnight, does

849
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: It doesn't just stop being bigoted overnight because of you know,

850
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: a change in policy. So you know, it wasn't just

851
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 1: that the religious right, like evangelicals, there are a lot

852
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 1: of evangelicals in Cuba right now, there's a growing evangelical population,

853
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to say, yeah, backed by the joical money.

854
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:04,399
Speaker 1: Uh no, please pressing the wrong people. And and then

855
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: there's the Catholic right obviously you know, much more you know,

856
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 1: discreetly but still very you know, against this. Uh. And

857
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: there was enough pushback that the government was worried that

858
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:19,240
Speaker 1: I don't know if they were worried that the constitution

859
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: the referendum would fail entirely, but it did seem like

860
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: they were worried that it would lower the voting percentage

861
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 1: in favor of the new constitution enough that it would

862
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 1: hurt the new constitution's legitimacy or something. So they decided

863
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 1: to carve off the more controversial parts about the LGBT

864
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: rights and basically carve them off, pushed them into a

865
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 1: referendum on the family code with all the new laws

866
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 1: based on the new constitution, all the new laws governing

867
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: family law, and pump that down the road indefinitely. And

868
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: so what's happening now that would just happened is the

869
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: culmination of this red friendom that they punted down the

870
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,760
Speaker 1: road in twenty nine. The original constitution stuition was passed

871
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: with something like approval, uh, and and this was just

872
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 1: kind of left it on the to do list. And

873
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 1: then with the current crisis in Cuba, I mean like

874
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 1: there's a couple of there's a couple of ways to

875
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: read this, but I think one of the most obvious

876
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: is that, uh, the Cuban government needed to win, and

877
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: this was an easy win. They could actually deliver in

878
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: the age of extreme scarcity and rolling blackouts. It's like,

879
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: we can just at least deliver on this promise, and

880
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 1: they did. So Yeah, I guess, So can we talk

881
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 1: a bit about like what what what what actually is

882
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,879
Speaker 1: in the new code and what like what what it does? Yeah?

883
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: So it does. It does a bunch of pretty cool things.

884
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: It legalizes same sex marriage, which is great for a

885
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 1: lot of people, not just because you know, not not

886
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: just because of the principle of it, but also things like, Okay,

887
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 1: you're separating from your partner, but everything is under your

888
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: partner's name. You're not never need like Mary and what

889
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: you're right, pop up up up us so you like

890
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:05,240
Speaker 1: for for separation for immigration, if you're trying to immigrate

891
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 1: and you're not married to your spouse, you know, you know,

892
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: if you're trying to inheritance all these kinds of things. Yeah,

893
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: this is gonna be. This is like important in concrete

894
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 1: material ways. It legalizes adoption by same sex couples, which

895
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: is also pretty cool. That was not allowed at all.

896
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: Good it wasn't before. Glad, Glad, glad, glad. You can

897
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: now do that. That that's good. Hopefully we can still

898
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: continue to do that here for like you more years

899
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: at least. Like yeah, Um, it legalizes surrogacy and same

900
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 1: scop sex couples can can benefit from can use surgacy now,

901
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: although on a not for profit basis, and that's that's specific.

902
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 1: I am not an expert on whether or not it

903
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 1: is the best policy to have it as only not

904
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: for profit. Um. I know that there's a lot of

905
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 1: debate over it, but the law says not for profit

906
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: only for surrogacy. But that's still another option for people.

907
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 1: In addition to adoption. UH. It expands civil unions to

908
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: be much more inclusive. They're called uh in Spanish, so

909
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: now they are much more inclusive. And also you know,

910
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: you know, you you don't have to get married. You

911
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: can get a civil union if you can we explain

912
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 1: what that is, because that was a like there there

913
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 1: was a whole thing in the US, like in the

914
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: in the two thousand's about like oh, like you can

915
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: do civil Like there was a period it was like

916
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:29,439
Speaker 1: there are a lot of places you can get civil unions,

917
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 1: but you couldn't get married. So can you explain what

918
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: a civil union is? Because I think that's a thing

919
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 1: that like a lot of our audience probably isn't gonna

920
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 1: like remember when that was a thing anyone talked about. Sure,

921
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 1: I mean, like I'm I'm not a lawyer. Yeah, My

922
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: understanding is it is it is a way to recognize

923
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 1: your basically partners. You have some rights, and it helps

924
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: with some issues of like I think it also varies

925
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 1: country to country, but it's basically like a step down

926
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:08,240
Speaker 1: from the full commitment of marriage, is my understanding. Um, sorry,

927
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: that's less No, Yeah, I know, like that that was

928
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: that was by understanding of it. It was like like

929
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: in the US, it was this whole thing of like, well,

930
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 1: you can have still union, so you don't need to

931
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: be married. And then people were like no, because he

932
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: doesn't give you doesn't give you this sort of full

933
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 1: suite of rights and stuff, but it gives you some

934
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 1: things which I'm glad. I'm glad he was doing, Like no,

935
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: you could do both of these things. And then wasn't

936
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: there something about like like yeah, there there were changes

937
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: to like what like changes to what can be recognized

938
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 1: as a family That is the part that I've seen

939
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,879
Speaker 1: the most, Like I have read a bunch about this,

940
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 1: and I'm I still feel like this is something that's

941
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: not it's not entirely clear what this is going to

942
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 1: look like in practice. So basically, in expect has the

943
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 1: what the legal definition of what can constitute as a

944
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 1: family unit uh to be more focused less focused on

945
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 1: blood ties and more focused on affective ties so love, affection,

946
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: you know, caring for each other. Uh. So that for example,

947
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: let's say, I think like the big hypothetical that was

948
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: held up was like grandparents, so like if the parents

949
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: aren't around, but in practice, these people are the ones

950
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: that raise you, you know that you know, for for

951
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: for legal stuff that has to do with kids in

952
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: family law, like we can consider this a family unit,

953
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: is my understanding. It's still really murky and it's not

954
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 1: really helping me feel like like the r things I've

955
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 1: read on this also seem to be kind of like like,

956
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:50,919
Speaker 1: here's an explanation. I'm like that that doesn't really help

957
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:54,720
Speaker 1: me understand this at all. It is a little and

958
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 1: and I've seen people running about this is like human

959
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: government has abolished the family. Ray, I'm like, didn't. Yeah,

960
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: And for everything everybody, it seems like it's a they

961
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: abolished the family. It's that they've allowed you to change

962
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,479
Speaker 1: what a family is in the like in the eyes

963
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: of the state, which is not the same thing, right,

964
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: Like it's it's like giving you more wiggle grew. Yeah, um,

965
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 1: is my understanding. But again, it's one of those things

966
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: where I feel like everyone who I've seen running with

967
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: it has run with a completely different, very triumphilist explanation

968
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: that are sometimes mutually contradictory. And I'm like, I'd like

969
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 1: to see what this actually looks like in practice and

970
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: like seeing the effects better because it's it's an underdiscussed

971
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 1: dynamic of it because like what most people abroad we're

972
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: looking at was like same sex marriage, so like this

973
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: so that was less discussed, But I mean it seems

974
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: to be positive. The thing that the thing that caused

975
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: more controversy on the island was there was a shift

976
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:06,320
Speaker 1: to patio stad, which is uh father paternal rights basically

977
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: parental rights right and um, Basically, the idea is to

978
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 1: switch the child from nearly being a subject of their

979
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: parents will in theory they have more rights and our

980
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 1: subject on their own, even if they're just a kid

981
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: that's trying, yeah, to like prevent things like corporal punishments

982
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 1: and things like that you can't be your kids, which

983
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:34,720
Speaker 1: also seems like a positive change. I would would would

984
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 1: love more of that in the US to just like

985
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:41,360
Speaker 1: absolutely clobber the like parental rights people because oh my

986
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:46,359
Speaker 1: fucking they're they're going to kill us all yeah. And

987
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 1: I mean the funny thing is like every time that

988
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: there's a leftist movement, the thing is always there coming

989
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 1: for your kids. And then like oh god, yeah anyway,

990
00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: sorry no, yeah, like it's right has one thing and

991
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 1: it's the same thing every time. Yeah, those are the

992
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 1: kind of the big things reds. The only thing I

993
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:14,439
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about was like, I okay, so there

994
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: was a thing of okay, so like obviously it passed

995
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 1: with like sixt seven percent of the vote. I think, um,

996
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,439
Speaker 1: something like that, like basically two theories of the vote um,

997
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: and I want to talk a bit about like, Okay,

998
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 1: so something I saw Okay, so like, okay, so you

999
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,240
Speaker 1: have the people who voted against it because they're Christian

1000
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 1: and they suck um and the young people who are

1001
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: just homophobic non Christian homophobes, non Christian homophobes. But then

1002
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: there was also like something that I saw that was

1003
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 1: like like people in opposition groups being like, we're going

1004
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:54,439
Speaker 1: to vote against this as like a vote against the government, which, yeah,

1005
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 1: can we explain what that was about, because that's yeah, sure.

1006
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: And I think that you also have of a division

1007
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 1: there between the people who are like, it's really against

1008
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 1: the government, but really it's against the change thought about

1009
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: like I think that even there it's a mixed bag

1010
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:15,919
Speaker 1: of both. But um, basically, the idea was that by

1011
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: approving this, uh and voting in favor of something cooked

1012
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 1: up by the government, that they were giving credence to

1013
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 1: the government, legitimacy to the government. Uh. Ergo, the only

1014
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: moral position was either extension or voting now uh. And

1015
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 1: so I mean, again a lot of it's mixed up

1016
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: with They also really as a rule, did not like

1017
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: the content of the law. I mean, the part of

1018
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 1: the thing is like it's the the the opposition is

1019
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 1: in this weird space right now where they have like

1020
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:49,920
Speaker 1: the more historical branch, which is you have like a

1021
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 1: historical branch that it's like rapidly far right. Uh. And

1022
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 1: then you have there's a lot of overlap with like

1023
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 1: default Catholic right in there uh and the Catholic of

1024
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 1: far rights in there as I'm sure you understand what

1025
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: that means. But but but then you also have a

1026
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 1: growing prominent liberal contingent um who speaks better not just

1027
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 1: that doesn't just put on a better face for international audiences,

1028
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 1: but also puts on a better face for Cuban audiences. Um.

1029
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: And because like Cuba is not a far right wing

1030
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 1: society like for example, abortion, Like I spoke to a

1031
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 1: right wing Cuban who left who's like, yeah, I like

1032
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: Ben Shapira and a lot of what he says, but

1033
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 1: I don't get his obsession with abortion. That's a woman's right,

1034
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: Like that's just so weird to me. It's because like

1035
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 1: Cubans aren't aren't necessarily super religious as well, which is

1036
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: a big part of it. Uh and slimant to the

1037
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 1: petis and all that. So the the so so that's

1038
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 1: so they're they're kind of like a but like it's

1039
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 1: like cats and dogs tied into a sack. So there's

1040
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: like you have these different opposition figures. And I think

1041
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 1: that the really right wing ones know that they can't

1042
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: be as openly homophobic as they used to be, and

1043
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 1: so they need to couch it in a different way.

1044
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 1: I think it's not just that I don't want to

1045
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: reduce everyone to that, but I do think that's a

1046
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 1: huge part of that project. And then in addition to that,

1047
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 1: just people who are like anything that the government does

1048
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 1: is bad because they're accelerationists, which is another big part

1049
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: of the opposite. Know why is every why is everybody

1050
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 1: an acceleration is? Now? This is the worst I I

1051
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: I an acceleration I don't think. I wonder if it's

1052
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 1: material reality is a trick to that to the I

1053
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: am going to take a time machine. I am going

1054
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 1: to hunt down nick Land, and I am going to

1055
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 1: stop the g RU from forming, and no one will

1056
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 1: ever know what acceleration is. Is that you know that's

1057
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 1: not true. Without nick Land, someone else would come up

1058
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: with with accelerationism. It's a very easy thing to think

1059
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 1: of to to to be fair to Nick Land, at

1060
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 1: at LEAs his version of accelerationism had to do with

1061
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 1: like at least there was everyone. Yeah, like the first

1062
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 1: of accelerationism. We're like, like capitalism is the human machine

1063
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 1: that's also a god that only exists in but that

1064
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 1: it exists continuously in potential and all all of you,

1065
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 1: like the market being irresistible because because because because it's

1066
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 1: like the market itself is the thinking machine that this

1067
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 1: is at least funny. Yeah, the moder stuff is, oh god,

1068
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:31,439
Speaker 1: this is like they I longed for the days where

1069
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 1: there was an argument where people where people would do

1070
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 1: the modern accelerationist thing and like the land Ends were go, no, no, no,

1071
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 1: that's not what accelerationism is. It's just that I hate

1072
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 1: this reality. It's the worst. Yeah. So I mean, like,

1073
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 1: I think I think a good chunk of the opposition

1074
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 1: movement can be described as alex accelerationist. It's not just

1075
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 1: it's not just accelerationists, but I do think a lot

1076
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 1: of them are in there. Any improvements to anything is

1077
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: helping the government. That's why the support the embargo. That's

1078
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 1: why they don't want an improvement on any laws. They

1079
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: want things to be as dysfunctional as possible because they

1080
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 1: think that like the government is incapable of actually getting

1081
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 1: doing better, and to the extent that it becomes better

1082
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:15,479
Speaker 1: and stronger, it's just going to be more repressive ergo.

1083
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 1: The solution is bring the country to a standstill so

1084
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 1: there will be a general strike and overthrow the government.

1085
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 1: That's their plan. I think that seems like a terrible plan.

1086
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:27,960
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna gonna throw that out there. That's that,

1087
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 1: Like I get at that at that point, Like why

1088
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 1: do why not just become a terrorist? Like I don't know,

1089
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 1: like because that's because that's more scary. Yeah, that's the

1090
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 1: actual reason. Yeah, It's like it's people. It's people, people

1091
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: who were too cowardly to like kill someone with their

1092
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 1: own bombs, so they kill people by trying to get

1093
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 1: sanctions due instead, which is like no, although there have

1094
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: there happened, there happen terms there was the realist. He

1095
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 1: blew up a put a frag bomb in a few

1096
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 1: hotel until the Cuban an Italian tourist. Um. Yeah, actually,

1097
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 1: actually my dad was working on the extradition case to

1098
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 1: get an extraditeto vensquel over that he was yeah, he's

1099
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 1: He also committed the first act so a Cuban, a

1100
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 1: CIA trained Cuban exile committed the first act of terrorism

1101
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 1: involving civil aviation in the Western Hemisphere. That's pretty late. Yeah,

1102
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 1: I mean maybe maybe it was just people were just

1103
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 1: doing it in and maybe it was just a European thing,

1104
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 1: and then the CIA was like, what if we bring

1105
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: this here. It's like, no, sure, surely this will work

1106
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 1: better for us that it worked for every other group

1107
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 1: who's hijacked a plane in the nineteen seventies. Oh god,

1108
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 1: this sucks. I hope, I hope those guys have a

1109
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 1: bad time and that. Yeah. Yeah, well at least kicked

1110
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 1: it a couple of years ago. Oh thank god. Okay,

1111
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: rest rest in piss official official pot opinion doing. We're

1112
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 1: doing the crabs got these people suck um Yeah yeah,

1113
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 1: so yeah, I guess do you have anything else you

1114
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 1: want to talk about? Or I think that's it. Just

1115
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 1: thanks a lot for having me on. It was it

1116
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 1: was great to be on. Thank thanks for coming on. Yeah.

1117
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 1: Queer rights good, not doing them bad. Don't kill people

1118
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 1: with sanctions. Yeah, definitely. The embargo has been an utter failure.

1119
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 1: Everything in human misery. Yeah, like all right, yeah, and

1120
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: I guess, um, yeah, but listening, do you do you

1121
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: have do you have stuff you want to plug? Oh? Sure,

1122
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 1: that's that's that's a very good and generous point. Um.

1123
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 1: So you can find me on Twitter at at a

1124
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 1: s R tier up Peas and Peter E r Teas

1125
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:02,440
Speaker 1: and Tom I e r r A. I also have

1126
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: a podcast which is linked in my bio. I'm doing

1127
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 1: a history of Cuba um as an academic but spreading

1128
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 1: for a poor popular audience. And we're going way when

1129
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 1: we start with the indigenous people, we don't just jump

1130
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 1: over them, and we're I'm currently working on Columbus and

1131
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 1: then uh, let's see. And I also have a sub

1132
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 1: stack called scene embargo s I N and then the

1133
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:29,200
Speaker 1: word embargo, so yeah, yeah that that's without embargo. If

1134
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 1: I'm Spanish, is okay, yes, it means without embargo, but

1135
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:38,919
Speaker 1: it also sounds like sit embargo, which is I feel like, yeah,

1136
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 1: it would be a cool band theme. So yeah, yeah,

1137
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 1: well we will, we will, we will link to stuff

1138
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 1: and we will link to that in the description. And yeah,

1139
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us. This this has been na

1140
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:56,040
Speaker 1: could happen here? Um? Yeah, make bad things happen to

1141
01:04:56,080 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 1: homophopes and get good things to happen. Yeah, hello, and

1142
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 1: welcome to It could happen here today. It's just me

1143
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 1: because it's early and I live on the West Coast,

1144
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 1: and today we are talking about America's drug problem. And

1145
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:29,440
Speaker 1: I'm joined by David Mitchell from Patients for Affordable Drugs,

1146
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about the cost of medicines,

1147
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 1: why it's so astronomically high, why I sometimes go to

1148
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,840
Speaker 1: Mexico to buy my instident, and why you probably know

1149
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 1: someone who can't afford the medicines they need to survive

1150
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 1: or maybe thrive. So, David, can you explain a little

1151
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: bit about First of you like to introduce yourself and

1152
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 1: explain what Patients for Affordable Drugs does and the role

1153
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 1: that you play there. That would be wonderful. I am

1154
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 1: the founder and president of Patients for Affordable Drugs. Were

1155
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 1: the only national patient organization that focuses exclusively on policies

1156
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:09,120
Speaker 1: to lower drug prices. We're independent, we're bipartisan. We don't

1157
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: take money from any organizations that profit from the development

1158
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 1: or distribution of prescription drugs. We do two main things.

1159
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 1: We uh collect patients stories, and we amplify those stories

1160
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 1: to policymakers and elected officials so we can bring home

1161
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 1: the human impact of ridiculously high drug prices on the

1162
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 1: people in the United States. And the second thing is

1163
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 1: that we recruit and train patients to be advocates. UH.

1164
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: We teach them about the policies, give them coaching on presentation, UH,

1165
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 1: and UH prepare them to go tell their story and

1166
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:02,840
Speaker 1: deal directly we the people who set policy in this country.

1167
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 1: And so we've had patients testify in state legislatures all

1168
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:12,360
Speaker 1: over the country. We've had patients to testify in Congress

1169
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:16,840
Speaker 1: on many occasions. Just last week, one of our patients,

1170
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:21,240
Speaker 1: who happens to be a Type one diabetic, I introduced

1171
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: the President of the United States in the Rose Garden

1172
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:28,800
Speaker 1: in a speech the President made talking about the New

1173
01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 1: Inflation Reduction Act and how it's going to help lower

1174
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 1: drug prices and out of pocket costs for people. So

1175
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 1: that that's our work. I do this work because I'm

1176
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:41,200
Speaker 1: a patient. I have an incurable blood cancer. It's called

1177
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 1: multiple my looma. It's incurable. That's not good, but it's

1178
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 1: treatable for some period of time with very expensive drugs.

1179
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 1: Right now, my oncologists have me on a four drug

1180
01:07:55,240 --> 01:08:00,640
Speaker 1: combination that carries a list price of more than nine

1181
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:06,320
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year. Christ these drugs are literally keeping

1182
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 1: me alive, and I'm very grateful to have them, but

1183
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:17,640
Speaker 1: they're wildly overpriced and the the drug industry. Drug companies

1184
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:22,160
Speaker 1: exploit UH patients everywhere in the world, but especially here

1185
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:25,679
Speaker 1: in the United States. They use us as a piggy

1186
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:31,599
Speaker 1: bank to hit their targets for executive bonuses, to trigger

1187
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:37,439
Speaker 1: executive bonuses, and they hit profit targets for their shareholders. UH.

1188
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:44,840
Speaker 1: And the unfairness is not acceptable. Anyway, When I got

1189
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 1: diagnosed and suddenly I found myself with a disease UH

1190
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:53,919
Speaker 1: through no fault of my own, they required very expensive drugs,

1191
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:57,640
Speaker 1: I began this journey, and the journey taught me a

1192
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:01,439
Speaker 1: fundamental point, and that is drugs don't work if people

1193
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 1: can't afford them. And so I retired and decided to

1194
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 1: devote myself as a patient UH to trying to change

1195
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:18,360
Speaker 1: a system in this country there really is built to

1196
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 1: benefit the people who profit from it at the expense

1197
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 1: of the people that's supposed to serve. And I worked

1198
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:26,640
Speaker 1: for free as a volunteer and I've been doing it

1199
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:29,719
Speaker 1: for six years. That's great. Yeah, let's say, I'm sorry

1200
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 1: to hear about your own wealth, but I think it's

1201
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:34,920
Speaker 1: a very admirable thing you've done. So, David, can you

1202
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 1: explain because it does Yah. I think people sometimes maybe

1203
01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 1: if they've only lived in the US, they might not realize,

1204
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 1: or perhaps they're extremely aware. Why are medicines so? Why

1205
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:50,759
Speaker 1: can't I travel sixteen miles right, go across the border,

1206
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 1: flash my passport at someone, have a bunch of scans

1207
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,040
Speaker 1: taken right, go through a bunch of machines, and then

1208
01:09:57,080 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 1: buy medicines for less than half the price on any

1209
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,559
Speaker 1: given day. Why Why is it like that? It's like

1210
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:06,760
Speaker 1: that because we are the only developed nation in the

1211
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 1: world that lets drug companies dictate the prices a brand

1212
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:18,919
Speaker 1: name drugs to the to their citizens. Every other developed

1213
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:22,720
Speaker 1: country in the world negotiates on behalf of their citizens

1214
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:26,639
Speaker 1: directly with the drug companies to get a better deal. Uh,

1215
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:30,639
Speaker 1: And we don't do that. The net result is that

1216
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: Americans are paying almost four times what other wealthy nations

1217
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 1: pay for the exact same brand name drugs. And the

1218
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:44,800
Speaker 1: impact is that three out of ten Americans report that

1219
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:50,000
Speaker 1: they are not able to take their medications as directed

1220
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 1: because of the cost. This has a direct impact on health. Uh.

1221
01:10:57,120 --> 01:11:03,639
Speaker 1: And you know, I understand that you are the type

1222
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 1: one and you're insulin dependent, and so you know the

1223
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:11,639
Speaker 1: struggles and the high prices of insulin. But we've had

1224
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:17,720
Speaker 1: five people confirmed dead because they tried to ration their

1225
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:23,679
Speaker 1: insulin in the United States of America. This happens because

1226
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 1: we grant the drug companies this incredible market power, and

1227
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:32,840
Speaker 1: we let them dictate the prices to US, prices that

1228
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 1: are completely unjustified. Uh. And patients suffer financially and worse

1229
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:47,120
Speaker 1: because of their health due to these high prices. Yeah,

1230
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:49,920
Speaker 1: I think it's it's heartbreaking, the stuff like and I've

1231
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:52,679
Speaker 1: known people have died from from lack of access to insulin,

1232
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:56,559
Speaker 1: and it's it's just it's pretty horrific stuff. And can

1233
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 1: you explain, because let's get into that lack of justification,

1234
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 1: and right, there's ways that a drug. The things that

1235
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:04,720
Speaker 1: make up the cost of a drug would be the

1236
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 1: research and development of the drug, the distribution of the drug,

1237
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:14,639
Speaker 1: and the marketing of the drug, and maybe something else

1238
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 1: I'm missing, But can you explain, like, how do we

1239
01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:21,600
Speaker 1: arrive at this insane price for insulin which was synthesized

1240
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:23,559
Speaker 1: in a lab more than a hundred years ago. Like,

1241
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:27,000
Speaker 1: what what makes up that price structure and how much

1242
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 1: would it actually cost to produce that insulin if we

1243
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:35,680
Speaker 1: stripped away some of those things. Well, you're asking a

1244
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 1: very intelligent question about what should exist but doesn't, and

1245
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 1: that is a framework to arrive at an appropriate price

1246
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:49,200
Speaker 1: that will provide a reasonable return to the drug maker

1247
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:52,960
Speaker 1: and ensure that drugs are affordable and accessible for the

1248
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:55,880
Speaker 1: people who need them. We don't have a system like that.

1249
01:12:56,439 --> 01:13:00,599
Speaker 1: The drug companies charge as much as they think they

1250
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:05,639
Speaker 1: can get away with. Period. This was shown just last

1251
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:09,760
Speaker 1: year when one of the drug companies named Biogen tried

1252
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:13,560
Speaker 1: to bring a drug to market for Alzheimer's and proposed

1253
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:16,360
Speaker 1: to sell it at fifty six thousand dollars, even though

1254
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:19,320
Speaker 1: there was no proof it worked. And after it got

1255
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:21,960
Speaker 1: big pushback and no one wanted to pay for it,

1256
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:28,040
Speaker 1: the government private employers, uh, they cut the price to

1257
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:32,599
Speaker 1: twenty eight thousand dollars. Now was it worth fifty six thousand.

1258
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:35,400
Speaker 1: If it wasn't, then why didn't you just price it

1259
01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:38,120
Speaker 1: at twenty eight thousand to begin with why because they

1260
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:42,200
Speaker 1: thought they could get away with fifty six thousand dollars

1261
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:45,720
Speaker 1: a year for this draw. Now, where insulin is concerned,

1262
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 1: it's very unfortunate. There is an insulin cartel. Three companies

1263
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:58,080
Speaker 1: control of the global insulin market in the world and

1264
01:13:58,439 --> 01:14:03,160
Speaker 1: here in the United States as well. And it's some

1265
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:06,840
Speaker 1: people would say, correctly, you know, you have to call

1266
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:11,280
Speaker 1: it correctly an alagopoly. A small number of producers and

1267
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:17,040
Speaker 1: sellers who are controlling the market. Uh. At what happens

1268
01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:23,400
Speaker 1: as a result of that problem. Well, insulin costs roughly

1269
01:14:23,479 --> 01:14:27,160
Speaker 1: ten dollars of vile to produce. It sells for more

1270
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:30,599
Speaker 1: than three hundred dollars of aisle. It has gone up

1271
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:35,400
Speaker 1: in price more than six in the last twenty years

1272
01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:41,719
Speaker 1: because of this cartel that literally controls the insulin supply

1273
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:46,439
Speaker 1: in the world. I'll give you another example. I take

1274
01:14:46,479 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 1: a drug. It's called for my cancer. It's called palmer List.

1275
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:55,840
Speaker 1: It's an oral drug that I get under Medicare Part D.

1276
01:14:57,479 --> 01:15:01,880
Speaker 1: Palmerlus costs less than one dollar capsule to make. It

1277
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:07,559
Speaker 1: sells for almost one thousand dollars per capsule. J Christ,

1278
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:12,120
Speaker 1: you cannot justify. You cannot tell me that there's justification

1279
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:19,040
Speaker 1: for a thousand percent margin. It's just ridiculous. But because

1280
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:22,920
Speaker 1: we do not use our power, our market power to

1281
01:15:23,080 --> 01:15:27,439
Speaker 1: negotiate for a better deal, um, they can get away

1282
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 1: with it. And they do. And there there are many

1283
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:33,360
Speaker 1: examples of this. Now all of that is about to

1284
01:15:33,439 --> 01:15:37,719
Speaker 1: change with some new legislation that has been enacted into law.

1285
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:42,040
Speaker 1: It's about to start to change. I should be more precise,

1286
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: um uh, And we can talk about that. Yeah, let's

1287
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 1: talk about that. One thing I want to get into first,

1288
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: I think is this. I think sometimes we have this impression,

1289
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:57,519
Speaker 1: certainly with new and novel compounds, that there's this massive

1290
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:01,080
Speaker 1: lab and it's entirely funded by the money that's made

1291
01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:03,519
Speaker 1: from selling other drugs. And in that lab people are

1292
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:06,040
Speaker 1: just all day cooking up curious to the Boula virus

1293
01:16:06,240 --> 01:16:10,439
Speaker 1: or these various very deadly conditions. And so I wanted

1294
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:13,960
Speaker 1: to explain. I wanted you to explain who pays for

1295
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:16,799
Speaker 1: the R and D for the most part, and who

1296
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:19,680
Speaker 1: decides what that R and D focuses on, because I

1297
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:25,120
Speaker 1: think those are both very important topics. Yeah. Well, it

1298
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 1: turns out that every single drug approved by the FDA

1299
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:33,000
Speaker 1: from two thousand ten to two thousand nineteen was everyone

1300
01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:37,360
Speaker 1: was based on in some part on science paid for

1301
01:16:37,479 --> 01:16:43,960
Speaker 1: by taxpayers through the National Institutes of Health, another organization

1302
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:47,320
Speaker 1: and the government called BARTER, and another organization in the

1303
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:52,160
Speaker 1: government called DARPA darpas who invented the internet, for example,

1304
01:16:52,880 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 1: and GPS. UM. UH. We pay taxpayers billions of dollars

1305
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:07,680
Speaker 1: every year to finance basic scientific research that lays the

1306
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:12,200
Speaker 1: foundation for all these drugs. And when a drug company

1307
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:19,280
Speaker 1: sees the drug that has promised UH, it will try

1308
01:17:19,360 --> 01:17:23,480
Speaker 1: and acquire from the NIH or the other government agencies

1309
01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:27,240
Speaker 1: that do this work fund this work UH the intellectual

1310
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:33,799
Speaker 1: property UH, and then they'll finish the job of running

1311
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:39,439
Speaker 1: UM late stage clinical trials and going through the process

1312
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:46,200
Speaker 1: of gaining FDA approval. I'm gonna say a couple of

1313
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:51,439
Speaker 1: things here that are critically important to understand. To try

1314
01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:57,760
Speaker 1: and illustrate this. The drug industry TIES tries to take

1315
01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:00,559
Speaker 1: credit for the m r n A vxans that were

1316
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:05,520
Speaker 1: developed to fight COVID nineteen. And these are the vaccines

1317
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:09,759
Speaker 1: that are marketed by Visor and its partner in Europe,

1318
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:16,120
Speaker 1: by on Tech, and by Moderna here in the United States. UM.

1319
01:18:16,160 --> 01:18:19,640
Speaker 1: It turns out that in the eighties and nineties and

1320
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:25,040
Speaker 1: early two thousand's, drug companies weren't investing in vaccines because

1321
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:28,599
Speaker 1: it didn't produce they didn't produce a big return. So

1322
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:32,800
Speaker 1: the federal government invested through NIH, DARPA ambart to all

1323
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:38,200
Speaker 1: of them. Two developed the technology that we now call

1324
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:42,559
Speaker 1: m r n A so that when the virus hit,

1325
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:47,800
Speaker 1: that technology was ready for MODERNA and Visor to run with.

1326
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:52,720
Speaker 1: But they didn't make the big investment. We did, we

1327
01:18:52,880 --> 01:18:59,479
Speaker 1: being taxpayers, to get that technology ready to go. And

1328
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:02,840
Speaker 1: in the case of MODERNA, we paid for everything. And

1329
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:06,280
Speaker 1: I'm not exaggerating, they had never produced a drug, so

1330
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:10,640
Speaker 1: we stood up manufacturing capacity for them, We paid for

1331
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:14,559
Speaker 1: their late stage clinical trials, and we signed advanced purchase

1332
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:19,040
Speaker 1: agreements to completely de risk the enterprise. But they will

1333
01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:22,240
Speaker 1: tell you that they saved us, It's not true. We

1334
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:30,679
Speaker 1: saved ourselves. There's a reason that the president, who cares

1335
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:34,599
Speaker 1: deeply about trying to reduce the death toll from cancer

1336
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:41,439
Speaker 1: has to have this new organization called h which is

1337
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:43,840
Speaker 1: going to be funded with billions of dollars to try

1338
01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:50,720
Speaker 1: and do something to accelerate cancer research. Why do why

1339
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:52,759
Speaker 1: do we have to pay for that because the drug

1340
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:59,280
Speaker 1: companies will not pay for the high risk early stage research.

1341
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:05,759
Speaker 1: It goes into getting really breakthrough new drugs to market.

1342
01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:11,840
Speaker 1: So who who does this? Who pays for it? By

1343
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:17,080
Speaker 1: and large, taxpayers are underpinning all the basic science. Drug

1344
01:20:17,120 --> 01:20:22,080
Speaker 1: companies are taking drugs that show promise, acquiring the intellectual property,

1345
01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:27,200
Speaker 1: and then charging whatever they want for the drugs. Um.

1346
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:31,280
Speaker 1: So that's our system in the United States of America.

1347
01:20:31,400 --> 01:20:35,720
Speaker 1: It's completely screwed up. Uh. We need to have a

1348
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:41,880
Speaker 1: process more like what you described imposing this question, which is, well,

1349
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:45,559
Speaker 1: shouldn't we look at what the government invested, what the

1350
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:51,400
Speaker 1: company invested? Uh? You know what would be what does

1351
01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:54,240
Speaker 1: it cost to manufactured the drug and distribute the drug

1352
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:56,839
Speaker 1: and all of that, and then arrive at a price

1353
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:01,840
Speaker 1: that provides a fair return for investment in risk to

1354
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:05,559
Speaker 1: the drug company, but not any price they want to dictate.

1355
01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:08,559
Speaker 1: That's what we have now is they get the drug

1356
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:11,760
Speaker 1: from us and they get to dictate the price. We

1357
01:21:11,880 --> 01:21:18,480
Speaker 1: don't have a system like the one you referenced. Yeah,

1358
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,120
Speaker 1: and it's it's much to a detriment, right, And I

1359
01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:23,280
Speaker 1: was that it's interesting you talked about how that this

1360
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:25,960
Speaker 1: profit driven model tends to focus on certain conditions and

1361
01:21:26,040 --> 01:21:29,000
Speaker 1: not others. And I know that you focus mainly on

1362
01:21:29,040 --> 01:21:31,040
Speaker 1: the United States, but perhaps we could get into a

1363
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:34,360
Speaker 1: little bit what that means for neglected diseases on a

1364
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:38,599
Speaker 1: global scale. Right, how looking at only patients who can

1365
01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:42,040
Speaker 1: afford to pay these inflated prices means that we're drug

1366
01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:45,719
Speaker 1: companies are sort of tacit lee saying, well, we're okay

1367
01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:48,639
Speaker 1: with people dying from conditions that people don't get in America.

1368
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:52,240
Speaker 1: Are you comfortable talking about that a little bit? Well,

1369
01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:56,439
Speaker 1: we only work in the United States because that is

1370
01:21:56,439 --> 01:22:01,439
Speaker 1: a big enough challenge for us. I will say that

1371
01:22:03,160 --> 01:22:06,799
Speaker 1: drug companies want to invest only in drugs that produce

1372
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:12,760
Speaker 1: a big return their profit maximizers their corporations, and we

1373
01:22:12,840 --> 01:22:15,599
Speaker 1: don't have a way that we balance that out where

1374
01:22:15,640 --> 01:22:20,080
Speaker 1: we say yes, but but, but but taxpayers are are

1375
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:24,720
Speaker 1: doing the foundational research that leads to these drugs, and

1376
01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:28,760
Speaker 1: and these are in that sense, public goods, and we

1377
01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:30,720
Speaker 1: need to figure out how, yeah, you can have a

1378
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:33,400
Speaker 1: fair return, but we also make sure that they're priced

1379
01:22:33,479 --> 01:22:39,200
Speaker 1: to maximize affordability and accessibility. And in this plays out

1380
01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:44,200
Speaker 1: overseas with neglected tropical diseases, which you reference, which you know,

1381
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:48,880
Speaker 1: drug companies don't want to spend a lot of money

1382
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:51,439
Speaker 1: on because those countries don't have a lot of money

1383
01:22:51,720 --> 01:22:54,639
Speaker 1: to pay for them. Because all the companies care about

1384
01:22:54,760 --> 01:22:57,680
Speaker 1: is honest to god, you know, they they want us

1385
01:22:57,720 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 1: to believe that they're all about looking after our well being.

1386
01:23:02,320 --> 01:23:06,640
Speaker 1: They are corporations, and corporations by law, have to maximize

1387
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:11,680
Speaker 1: profits for their shareholders shareholders, and that's what they do. Um.

1388
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:15,920
Speaker 1: You know who invests in neglected tropical diseases. The Gates

1389
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:22,880
Speaker 1: Foundation and other foundations that put the money out to

1390
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:28,240
Speaker 1: do that early stage research that changes the pricing equation,

1391
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:33,479
Speaker 1: should should change the pricing equation, um, so that we

1392
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:39,519
Speaker 1: can still develop the drugs that people abroad would benefit

1393
01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:44,920
Speaker 1: from tremendously. Uh if if only we made the effort

1394
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:50,120
Speaker 1: and made the investment, which they're not inclined to do.

1395
01:23:50,160 --> 01:23:52,840
Speaker 1: You don't answer your question, yes very well, very well.

1396
01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:54,800
Speaker 1: I think people are like looking for evidence on this.

1397
01:23:54,840 --> 01:23:56,639
Speaker 1: They could look at the speed at which we started

1398
01:23:56,680 --> 01:24:00,639
Speaker 1: to develop ebola treatments of vaccines once became a threat

1399
01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:03,639
Speaker 1: to US vesse, once he became a threat to people

1400
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:06,320
Speaker 1: in the global periphery. By the way, I will say

1401
01:24:06,320 --> 01:24:09,160
Speaker 1: one more thing. Of course, it's not the drug companies

1402
01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:15,080
Speaker 1: only hurt people in poorer countries in the world. It

1403
01:24:15,320 --> 01:24:21,679
Speaker 1: is that drug companies insist on high prices everywhere. And

1404
01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:28,200
Speaker 1: for example, UM, the disease system fibrosis is incurable, and

1405
01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:34,960
Speaker 1: UM there are new drugs that help people live longer UH.

1406
01:24:35,080 --> 01:24:41,760
Speaker 1: They are marketed by Vertex. Interestingly, the gene that all

1407
01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:47,320
Speaker 1: of these UH drugs are built on, the genetic component,

1408
01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:50,640
Speaker 1: was identified by the former head of the ni H,

1409
01:24:50,680 --> 01:24:53,880
Speaker 1: Francis Collins, when he was doing research paid for by

1410
01:24:53,920 --> 01:24:59,640
Speaker 1: the NIH at the University of Michigan. His his discoveries

1411
01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:03,960
Speaker 1: were min UH, but still the drug companies wouldn't invest.

1412
01:25:04,479 --> 01:25:09,680
Speaker 1: So the Cystic Fibrocess Foundation raised money from its community

1413
01:25:09,720 --> 01:25:13,879
Speaker 1: to do more early stage research, and when it showed promise,

1414
01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:20,200
Speaker 1: Vertex bought the intellectual property from them UH and UH

1415
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:24,240
Speaker 1: brought these drugs that are built on that genetic discovery

1416
01:25:24,280 --> 01:25:28,479
Speaker 1: to market. But in countries that have said we can't

1417
01:25:28,479 --> 01:25:31,920
Speaker 1: afford the price you're demanding because we only have so

1418
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:35,240
Speaker 1: much money to pay for our citizens for healthcare. Because

1419
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:39,840
Speaker 1: we provide healthcare to all our citizens, Vertex will let

1420
01:25:39,880 --> 01:25:44,520
Speaker 1: people kids because it generally affects kids and younger adults.

1421
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:48,360
Speaker 1: Will let them die if the company, if the countries

1422
01:25:48,400 --> 01:25:52,000
Speaker 1: won't agree to the price that they are insisting on,

1423
01:25:52,600 --> 01:25:55,720
Speaker 1: literally let them die and say, look, you know, if

1424
01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:57,400
Speaker 1: you won't strike a deal that has high and the

1425
01:25:57,479 --> 01:25:59,639
Speaker 1: price for us, we're not going to sell the drug

1426
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:03,519
Speaker 1: in your in your country. So it isn't only the

1427
01:26:03,560 --> 01:26:07,880
Speaker 1: poor people, uh uh, you know the poorer countries around

1428
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:12,599
Speaker 1: the world. It's patients who are stuck with a drug

1429
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:16,280
Speaker 1: disease that requires a high cost drug and maybe they

1430
01:26:16,320 --> 01:26:20,080
Speaker 1: can't get access to it because it's not affordable for

1431
01:26:20,280 --> 01:26:26,639
Speaker 1: their country or them. Yeah, it's it's pretty pretty bleak

1432
01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:30,360
Speaker 1: stuff in that sense. Let's get onto a little bit then,

1433
01:26:30,479 --> 01:26:33,280
Speaker 1: of how we can make this better. And I know

1434
01:26:33,400 --> 01:26:37,280
Speaker 1: that there are approaches that are incremental and their approaches

1435
01:26:37,360 --> 01:26:40,759
Speaker 1: that are more revolutionary or sort of making these big leaps.

1436
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:44,600
Speaker 1: So let's let's start with talking about how this legislation

1437
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:46,960
Speaker 1: that we've just seen, the Inflation Reduction Act, does that

1438
01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:48,920
Speaker 1: make a difference. How much of a difference does it make,

1439
01:26:48,960 --> 01:26:52,839
Speaker 1: and how does it make that difference. The Inflation Reduction

1440
01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:55,760
Speaker 1: Act is really historic legislation that is going to save

1441
01:26:55,840 --> 01:27:00,200
Speaker 1: millions of people in America millions of dollars over time.

1442
01:27:01,560 --> 01:27:06,519
Speaker 1: It does for big things. It does manymore, but for

1443
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:11,760
Speaker 1: big things. One, for the first time ever, Medicare is

1444
01:27:11,800 --> 01:27:14,880
Speaker 1: going to be able to use it it's purchasing power

1445
01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:18,960
Speaker 1: as the largest purchaser of drugs in this country to

1446
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:25,479
Speaker 1: UH negotiate lower prices for people on Medicare. For the

1447
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:30,640
Speaker 1: first time ever, we are going to curb price gouging

1448
01:27:31,840 --> 01:27:37,400
Speaker 1: by forcing companies that raise prices faster than the rate

1449
01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:42,160
Speaker 1: of inflation to pay a rebate. U two Medicare. We're

1450
01:27:42,160 --> 01:27:47,559
Speaker 1: gonna that will curb their their price increases. H Third,

1451
01:27:48,479 --> 01:27:51,840
Speaker 1: we are going to limit the amount of out of

1452
01:27:51,880 --> 01:27:56,960
Speaker 1: pocket annually a Medicare patient can pay under the Medicare

1453
01:27:57,040 --> 01:28:00,599
Speaker 1: Party Prescription Drug Benefit. Right now, there is annual lot

1454
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:03,240
Speaker 1: of pocket limit I pay for that drug I described

1455
01:28:03,280 --> 01:28:06,240
Speaker 1: to you before to costs of almost a thousand dollars

1456
01:28:06,240 --> 01:28:10,559
Speaker 1: of capsule, I pay out of pocket more than sixteen

1457
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:15,160
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year. There will be a limit of

1458
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:18,960
Speaker 1: two thousand dollars. No Medicare beneficiary will pay more than

1459
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:24,200
Speaker 1: two thousand dollars out of pocket for Medicare Party drugs.

1460
01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:29,799
Speaker 1: And four for the first time. Starting next year, people

1461
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:33,160
Speaker 1: who depend on insulin in Medicare will pay no more

1462
01:28:33,200 --> 01:28:37,320
Speaker 1: than thirty five dollars per prescription per month for their

1463
01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:45,360
Speaker 1: insulin um. These are all truly significant changes UH and

1464
01:28:45,560 --> 01:28:52,560
Speaker 1: begin to shift UH drug policy UH in this country,

1465
01:28:52,880 --> 01:29:02,280
Speaker 1: begin to uh break the dictator real pricing ability that

1466
01:29:02,360 --> 01:29:05,960
Speaker 1: the drugs drug companies have. And I wanted to take

1467
01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:09,640
Speaker 1: a minute to explain why Medicare negotiation in itself is

1468
01:29:09,640 --> 01:29:13,759
Speaker 1: such a big breakthrough very quickly, when the Medicare Prescription

1469
01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:16,759
Speaker 1: Drug Benefit was enacted into law in two thousand three,

1470
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:21,679
Speaker 1: the drug companies, in the dark of night got stuck

1471
01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:26,560
Speaker 1: into that law something called the non interference clause that

1472
01:29:26,760 --> 01:29:30,000
Speaker 1: said that the Secretary of Health and Human Services could

1473
01:29:30,040 --> 01:29:34,479
Speaker 1: not negotiate directly with drug companies period. It got stuck

1474
01:29:34,520 --> 01:29:36,479
Speaker 1: in in the dark of night by a man named

1475
01:29:36,479 --> 01:29:39,400
Speaker 1: Billie Tausend, who was then share of the Energy and

1476
01:29:39,439 --> 01:29:43,639
Speaker 1: Commerce Committee in the US House of Representatives, And within

1477
01:29:43,760 --> 01:29:47,720
Speaker 1: months after doing that at the behest of the big

1478
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:50,880
Speaker 1: drug companies, he went to work to run the big

1479
01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:54,679
Speaker 1: trade association for the drug companies it's called Pharma, at

1480
01:29:55,560 --> 01:29:59,240
Speaker 1: a salary of two million dollars a year. In other words,

1481
01:29:59,400 --> 01:30:03,520
Speaker 1: they bought the prohibition on medicare being able to negotiate,

1482
01:30:03,760 --> 01:30:07,400
Speaker 1: and they have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to

1483
01:30:07,960 --> 01:30:13,240
Speaker 1: keep that prohibition in place ever since then, just in

1484
01:30:13,280 --> 01:30:18,000
Speaker 1: the last two years, in fighting to not let medicare

1485
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:22,040
Speaker 1: negotiate over any drugs ever directly with the drug companies,

1486
01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:25,880
Speaker 1: they spent uh north of two hundred million dollars to

1487
01:30:25,960 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 1: try and stop that legislation from passing. UM. So these

1488
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:36,719
Speaker 1: are all big, significant, important changes, they are not enough.

1489
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:41,200
Speaker 1: Uh if if if we wrote the world, we would

1490
01:30:41,200 --> 01:30:47,840
Speaker 1: have written legislation that negotiated over more drugs and the

1491
01:30:47,960 --> 01:30:51,439
Speaker 1: pricing for which extended into the private sector and to

1492
01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:57,200
Speaker 1: people without insurance. But we had to do that. To

1493
01:30:57,280 --> 01:31:00,439
Speaker 1: extend it to the private sector and people without an assurance,

1494
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:04,080
Speaker 1: we needed sixty votes in the Senate because of the

1495
01:31:04,080 --> 01:31:08,599
Speaker 1: filibuster rules, and we couldn't get one, not one Republican vote,

1496
01:31:09,439 --> 01:31:12,280
Speaker 1: So it had to be passed under a special procedure

1497
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:16,400
Speaker 1: called reconciliation. The Democrats used it. They stood up the

1498
01:31:16,439 --> 01:31:20,120
Speaker 1: pharmah and they passed the bill. God bless him. Uh

1499
01:31:21,000 --> 01:31:25,719
Speaker 1: We in the course of it had um a vote

1500
01:31:26,280 --> 01:31:30,160
Speaker 1: trying to extend the thirty five dollar insulin monthly co

1501
01:31:30,360 --> 01:31:33,200
Speaker 1: paid to the private sector. We could only get seven

1502
01:31:33,280 --> 01:31:38,120
Speaker 1: Republican votes um and so we couldn't take it all

1503
01:31:38,160 --> 01:31:40,639
Speaker 1: the way there. So there's much more work to do.

1504
01:31:40,880 --> 01:31:46,400
Speaker 1: But this breakthrough is truly historic. Yeah, it's good. It's

1505
01:31:46,720 --> 01:31:49,120
Speaker 1: it's good to see some progress because there hasn't been

1506
01:31:49,120 --> 01:31:52,320
Speaker 1: progressed for a very long time. Let's talk about the

1507
01:31:52,360 --> 01:31:54,600
Speaker 1: difference in between a cost and a cope, because I

1508
01:31:54,640 --> 01:31:58,200
Speaker 1: think it's easy for politicians sometimes that you know, tweet

1509
01:31:58,720 --> 01:32:01,360
Speaker 1: insulin will cost you x and in fact it only

1510
01:32:01,400 --> 01:32:06,519
Speaker 1: costs you x if y and is that are true?

1511
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:09,600
Speaker 1: So can you explain for folks what a copay is

1512
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:12,120
Speaker 1: and why sometimes these claims are made about co patients

1513
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:15,240
Speaker 1: those are not the same as costs. Well, the big

1514
01:32:15,280 --> 01:32:21,400
Speaker 1: difference is the word price versus cost. In our system,

1515
01:32:21,439 --> 01:32:25,439
Speaker 1: we in order to lower out of pocket costs for people,

1516
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:31,360
Speaker 1: we have to lower price. Why if you we're paying

1517
01:32:31,400 --> 01:32:34,960
Speaker 1: a hundred dollars out of pocket for your medicine and

1518
01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:40,000
Speaker 1: we zero that out said nothing, But we don't lower

1519
01:32:40,080 --> 01:32:43,640
Speaker 1: the price. The overall price that hundred dollars has to

1520
01:32:43,680 --> 01:32:46,720
Speaker 1: be paid for it by someone And what happens is

1521
01:32:47,400 --> 01:32:54,200
Speaker 1: patients wind up paying higher premiums or higher taxes, or

1522
01:32:54,439 --> 01:32:57,559
Speaker 1: getting less money in their paychecks. You know, half of

1523
01:32:57,640 --> 01:33:00,879
Speaker 1: more than half of all Americans get their drug coverage

1524
01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:04,759
Speaker 1: and healthcare through their employers. So if that hundred dollars

1525
01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:09,800
Speaker 1: still has to be paid by somebody, then we wind

1526
01:33:09,880 --> 01:33:13,439
Speaker 1: up paying for it, either with higher premiums, higher taxes,

1527
01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:17,240
Speaker 1: or getting less money in our paycheck because someone needs

1528
01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:21,040
Speaker 1: to absorb that hundred bucks. This is very important for

1529
01:33:21,080 --> 01:33:25,200
Speaker 1: people to understand. There's no free lunch unless we lower prices.

1530
01:33:25,960 --> 01:33:29,839
Speaker 1: That's why pharma will always say, the big drug companies

1531
01:33:29,880 --> 01:33:32,200
Speaker 1: will always say, well, what we need to do is

1532
01:33:32,479 --> 01:33:34,599
Speaker 1: we just need to lower everybody's out of pocket, make

1533
01:33:34,640 --> 01:33:36,760
Speaker 1: it zero and let them have all the drugs they want,

1534
01:33:37,360 --> 01:33:40,479
Speaker 1: and let us continue to charge any price we want.

1535
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:44,320
Speaker 1: But that's not there's there's no free lunch. It would

1536
01:33:44,360 --> 01:33:48,920
Speaker 1: still have to be paid and um, so we fight

1537
01:33:49,160 --> 01:33:53,120
Speaker 1: very hard at pages for affordable drugs to help patients

1538
01:33:53,240 --> 01:33:58,360
Speaker 1: and policymakers understand that we need to do both. We

1539
01:33:58,439 --> 01:34:01,280
Speaker 1: need to lower out of pocket costs for people and

1540
01:34:01,560 --> 01:34:03,680
Speaker 1: we need to lower the price in order to do

1541
01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:07,080
Speaker 1: that co payments. Co payments are what you pay when

1542
01:34:07,160 --> 01:34:12,400
Speaker 1: you go to UM the pharmacy counter and they tell

1543
01:34:12,439 --> 01:34:17,799
Speaker 1: you that your share of this prescription is five dollars

1544
01:34:17,880 --> 01:34:22,440
Speaker 1: or ten dollars or twenty dollars. And lots of times

1545
01:34:23,160 --> 01:34:27,800
Speaker 1: employers and the insurance companies they hire to run their

1546
01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:31,680
Speaker 1: programs will use co payments to try and steer you

1547
01:34:31,760 --> 01:34:36,400
Speaker 1: to a less expensive drug at generic. Right, So if

1548
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:38,880
Speaker 1: you want a brand, you're gonna have to pay fifty bucks,

1549
01:34:38,920 --> 01:34:41,719
Speaker 1: but if you'll take the generic, you pay five bucks.

1550
01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:46,679
Speaker 1: For example, they're trying to steer YouTube and equally effective drug.

1551
01:34:46,720 --> 01:34:50,840
Speaker 1: Generics are by definition the same exact drug, and they

1552
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:53,160
Speaker 1: are trying to steer you to the less expensive but

1553
01:34:53,240 --> 01:34:57,759
Speaker 1: equally effective drug. The problem with our country big time

1554
01:34:58,280 --> 01:35:00,879
Speaker 1: is that sometimes they are not you for that purpose.

1555
01:35:02,320 --> 01:35:06,240
Speaker 1: In my case, I have co payments on all my drugs, right,

1556
01:35:06,880 --> 01:35:08,960
Speaker 1: but I don't have a choice. I don't have a

1557
01:35:09,040 --> 01:35:12,080
Speaker 1: cheaper chain there. I gotta I gotta take the drugs

1558
01:35:12,120 --> 01:35:17,439
Speaker 1: they're telling me to take UM. And so when we

1559
01:35:17,640 --> 01:35:22,479
Speaker 1: misuse co payments like that, we are hurting patients. Uh.

1560
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:25,880
Speaker 1: And it's how we also need to change. It points

1561
01:35:25,920 --> 01:35:29,639
Speaker 1: to how we also need to change our benefit design

1562
01:35:29,720 --> 01:35:33,960
Speaker 1: in this country. If if we can steer a patient

1563
01:35:34,040 --> 01:35:38,479
Speaker 1: to a healthier or as healthy least less expensive option.

1564
01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:42,160
Speaker 1: That makes sense. But if you're charging me for something

1565
01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:45,360
Speaker 1: that I can't do anything about, that makes no sense

1566
01:35:45,400 --> 01:35:49,760
Speaker 1: at all. Uh. And so these are changes that we

1567
01:35:49,840 --> 01:35:52,320
Speaker 1: at P four a D work on, it will continue

1568
01:35:52,360 --> 01:35:55,960
Speaker 1: to work on in our benefit design in this country. Yeah,

1569
01:35:56,200 --> 01:35:57,920
Speaker 1: I can see that trying to give you a price

1570
01:35:57,920 --> 01:35:59,760
Speaker 1: incentive to what not buy you a drug and you

1571
01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:02,519
Speaker 1: so or be poor or or be sick because you

1572
01:36:02,520 --> 01:36:05,960
Speaker 1: can't afford it, which is not the function of the incentive,

1573
01:36:05,960 --> 01:36:09,439
Speaker 1: and it's silly. Can you explain how why does some

1574
01:36:09,520 --> 01:36:13,960
Speaker 1: drugs have generic since some don't? So, boy, you're asking

1575
01:36:14,000 --> 01:36:17,439
Speaker 1: some really good questions. Um, you're going right to the

1576
01:36:17,479 --> 01:36:24,040
Speaker 1: heart of our system. A long time ago, in the eighties,

1577
01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:28,240
Speaker 1: eight three or eighty four, a bill was passed called

1578
01:36:28,280 --> 01:36:32,799
Speaker 1: the Hatch Waxman Bill, and since then everyone Affer refers

1579
01:36:32,840 --> 01:36:37,479
Speaker 1: to a concept called the Hatch Waxman barbain. And the

1580
01:36:37,520 --> 01:36:40,559
Speaker 1: bargain is this, if you're a drug company and you

1581
01:36:40,600 --> 01:36:43,840
Speaker 1: bring a valuable new drug to market, you get a

1582
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:47,960
Speaker 1: period of exclusivity along with your you have a patent

1583
01:36:48,120 --> 01:36:52,200
Speaker 1: already probably but upon approval we give you a period

1584
01:36:52,200 --> 01:36:55,400
Speaker 1: of exclusivity where for sure, no matter if your patent

1585
01:36:55,960 --> 01:36:59,080
Speaker 1: is old and only has a year left, we give

1586
01:36:59,160 --> 01:37:02,960
Speaker 1: you additional years of exclusivity where you have a monopoly

1587
01:37:03,040 --> 01:37:05,960
Speaker 1: on that drug. But at the end of that period

1588
01:37:05,960 --> 01:37:12,439
Speaker 1: of exclusivity, generics and biosimilars. Biosimilars are the generic name

1589
01:37:12,680 --> 01:37:16,840
Speaker 1: or the name for generics. For biologic drugs, they're more

1590
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:22,360
Speaker 1: complicated drugs. But at the end of that period of exclusivity,

1591
01:37:22,560 --> 01:37:27,960
Speaker 1: a generic I'm not a generic. Generics and biosimilars come

1592
01:37:28,040 --> 01:37:33,080
Speaker 1: to market, and we use the competition from the generics

1593
01:37:33,080 --> 01:37:38,040
Speaker 1: and biosimilars to drive down the price. When you have

1594
01:37:39,080 --> 01:37:42,880
Speaker 1: one generic that comes to compete, the price goes down

1595
01:37:42,920 --> 01:37:49,040
Speaker 1: about fifteen or two generics, the price goes down three generics.

1596
01:37:49,360 --> 01:37:53,280
Speaker 1: You know, by the time you get five generics in

1597
01:37:53,320 --> 01:37:58,320
Speaker 1: the market, the price is roughly five to of the

1598
01:37:58,320 --> 01:38:02,479
Speaker 1: original brand name price. So the hatchwax On Argin was

1599
01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:05,679
Speaker 1: you got a good drug, you bring it to market.

1600
01:38:05,720 --> 01:38:09,639
Speaker 1: We give you a time where you you can charge

1601
01:38:09,680 --> 01:38:12,280
Speaker 1: whatever you want. You have exclusivity in the market, but

1602
01:38:12,439 --> 01:38:16,240
Speaker 1: at the end of that we have competition from generics

1603
01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:21,240
Speaker 1: and biosimilars to lower price. Why aren't there generics and biosimilars,

1604
01:38:21,320 --> 01:38:24,719
Speaker 1: That was your question for all drugs, while some drugs

1605
01:38:24,720 --> 01:38:28,280
Speaker 1: are still in their period of exclusivity. But the drug

1606
01:38:28,320 --> 01:38:32,360
Speaker 1: companies don't let competition come to market. The brand drug

1607
01:38:32,400 --> 01:38:40,840
Speaker 1: companies they fight, They file additional patents. They they sign

1608
01:38:40,960 --> 01:38:44,639
Speaker 1: deals with generic companies not to bring a drug to market,

1609
01:38:44,680 --> 01:38:50,360
Speaker 1: a competitive to market, and pay them not to um uh.

1610
01:38:50,600 --> 01:38:54,719
Speaker 1: They make small changes in the drug and then file

1611
01:38:54,840 --> 01:39:01,400
Speaker 1: additional patents. There is something called a patent thicket. Um Humorra,

1612
01:39:01,720 --> 01:39:03,760
Speaker 1: the best selling drug in the world, has like a

1613
01:39:03,800 --> 01:39:07,200
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty two patents, a hundred and thirty two

1614
01:39:08,680 --> 01:39:11,439
Speaker 1: which were filed after the drug came to market. What

1615
01:39:11,520 --> 01:39:15,320
Speaker 1: are they for, Well, they could be for the packaging,

1616
01:39:16,160 --> 01:39:23,080
Speaker 1: the instructions, the color of the capsule. They patent everything,

1617
01:39:23,560 --> 01:39:27,240
Speaker 1: and why because Generica buys some other competitor has to

1618
01:39:27,280 --> 01:39:31,280
Speaker 1: fight its way through all of them to bring a

1619
01:39:31,360 --> 01:39:34,640
Speaker 1: drug to market. So we call them patent thickets. You know,

1620
01:39:34,760 --> 01:39:39,479
Speaker 1: if you grew up anywhere near you know a place

1621
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:42,000
Speaker 1: where there were thickets, you know, it's very hard to

1622
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:47,799
Speaker 1: get through a thicket. Um. And so in some cases

1623
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:51,440
Speaker 1: there is no competitor because they're in the period of exclusivity,

1624
01:39:51,680 --> 01:39:55,560
Speaker 1: but in far too many cases there are no competitors

1625
01:39:55,760 --> 01:39:58,720
Speaker 1: to drive down the price because the drug companies are

1626
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:05,400
Speaker 1: manipulating our system. And they're very good at manipulating our system. Yeah. Yes,

1627
01:40:05,439 --> 01:40:08,479
Speaker 1: they are exceptionally good, and that has terrible results. Okay,

1628
01:40:08,520 --> 01:40:11,799
Speaker 1: So we've spoken about that, the way that they've manipulated

1629
01:40:11,840 --> 01:40:14,840
Speaker 1: this system, the way that maybe that's beginning to change.

1630
01:40:15,160 --> 01:40:17,240
Speaker 1: One thing that I'm interested in I've written about it

1631
01:40:17,240 --> 01:40:20,320
Speaker 1: a little bit is these ways that are perhaps more revolutionary,

1632
01:40:20,680 --> 01:40:25,120
Speaker 1: if not always as like a cast iron safe. And

1633
01:40:25,200 --> 01:40:29,160
Speaker 1: one of those is obviously people making their own medicines,

1634
01:40:29,320 --> 01:40:33,600
Speaker 1: which is something that will see unfortunately increasingly in this

1635
01:40:33,760 --> 01:40:37,960
Speaker 1: country because of bands on access to reproductive healthcare. And

1636
01:40:38,040 --> 01:40:41,200
Speaker 1: I wonder how you think that has the potential to

1637
01:40:41,280 --> 01:40:45,040
Speaker 1: change this that we've seen, like the epic pencil, we've

1638
01:40:45,080 --> 01:40:48,360
Speaker 1: seen these homebrew abortion drugs, things like that. Do you

1639
01:40:48,360 --> 01:40:52,400
Speaker 1: think that has the capacity to change access? I remember

1640
01:40:52,439 --> 01:40:57,600
Speaker 1: I'm a patient, mm hmm, and um it scares the

1641
01:40:57,600 --> 01:41:01,519
Speaker 1: hell out of me. Yeah. The reason is there was

1642
01:41:01,560 --> 01:41:04,280
Speaker 1: a time in the United States and in most of

1643
01:41:04,320 --> 01:41:09,200
Speaker 1: the world when drug companies were not regulated. Uh, and

1644
01:41:09,479 --> 01:41:16,599
Speaker 1: they brought patent medicines. Uh and uh, you know, mix

1645
01:41:16,680 --> 01:41:20,720
Speaker 1: it at home, bruise and sold them. And we had

1646
01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:23,960
Speaker 1: no way to make sure that those didn't hurt people.

1647
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:29,560
Speaker 1: They killed people in some cases. Uh and then uh.

1648
01:41:29,600 --> 01:41:37,880
Speaker 1: In the twentieth century, the government realized and our Congress

1649
01:41:37,920 --> 01:41:41,640
Speaker 1: and our elected officials realized, we needed a way to

1650
01:41:41,680 --> 01:41:46,559
Speaker 1: regulate this industry, which would you know, sell poison in

1651
01:41:46,680 --> 01:41:50,760
Speaker 1: some cases, and they created what is now called the

1652
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:55,400
Speaker 1: Food and Drug Administration. Food and Drug Administration is charged

1653
01:41:55,479 --> 01:42:00,880
Speaker 1: with making sure drugs are safe and effective. I'm a patient.

1654
01:42:01,240 --> 01:42:03,920
Speaker 1: I want the Food and Drug Administration to do its job.

1655
01:42:04,520 --> 01:42:09,599
Speaker 1: I want drugs that are safe and effective. I do

1656
01:42:09,720 --> 01:42:17,480
Speaker 1: not like drugs that are not subjected to some scrutiny

1657
01:42:18,280 --> 01:42:22,320
Speaker 1: um to make sure that they do what those who

1658
01:42:22,320 --> 01:42:27,920
Speaker 1: are selling them claim they do. So remember, I'm not

1659
01:42:28,040 --> 01:42:32,920
Speaker 1: big on taking chances with my life. Uh. And I

1660
01:42:32,920 --> 01:42:36,880
Speaker 1: if the drugs don't work, I'll die. That's that simple.

1661
01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:40,559
Speaker 1: I'll die of cancer. Not not to mention, I could

1662
01:42:40,640 --> 01:42:43,760
Speaker 1: drive to die from a drug that's no good. Some

1663
01:42:43,840 --> 01:42:47,240
Speaker 1: drugs cause harm, you know, even drugs approved by the

1664
01:42:47,280 --> 01:42:53,120
Speaker 1: FDA cause harms sometimes. So I am I am. I

1665
01:42:53,160 --> 01:42:56,519
Speaker 1: am not a fan of homebrew drugs. I'm a fan

1666
01:42:56,600 --> 01:43:00,439
Speaker 1: of a system that protects me and ensures the drugs

1667
01:43:00,439 --> 01:43:05,160
Speaker 1: are safe and effective. But that's one man's perspective. Yeah,

1668
01:43:05,280 --> 01:43:07,400
Speaker 1: And I think it's reasonable to say that, like, we

1669
01:43:07,479 --> 01:43:10,360
Speaker 1: have a way to make drugs that are safe and effective,

1670
01:43:10,400 --> 01:43:13,639
Speaker 1: and it's the lord legislation or a system that's getting

1671
01:43:13,640 --> 01:43:16,439
Speaker 1: in between people and the life saving medicines that they need,

1672
01:43:16,439 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 1: and we should certainly struggle to fix that instead of

1673
01:43:22,000 --> 01:43:24,160
Speaker 1: looking for ways around it, even though I understand why,

1674
01:43:24,320 --> 01:43:27,800
Speaker 1: especially with things like reproductive healthcare, that doesn't seem like

1675
01:43:27,840 --> 01:43:32,800
Speaker 1: it's getting fixed anytime soon. Sadly, No, it's it's terribly sad.

1676
01:43:33,360 --> 01:43:37,120
Speaker 1: It's heartbreaking. Yeah, this whole thing is extremely and I

1677
01:43:37,160 --> 01:43:41,880
Speaker 1: know you've obviously seen it too, but my previous life,

1678
01:43:41,920 --> 01:43:44,160
Speaker 1: I've worked with one of someone who works for you

1679
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:48,840
Speaker 1: now in diabetes nonprofit and seen firsthand the consequences of this,

1680
01:43:48,920 --> 01:43:51,920
Speaker 1: and it's really heartbreaking stuff to look at, and I

1681
01:43:51,960 --> 01:43:55,000
Speaker 1: wish it just seems so unnecessary in the world where

1682
01:43:55,080 --> 01:43:59,200
Speaker 1: like these pharmaceutical companies make we should say, like billions

1683
01:43:59,280 --> 01:44:01,599
Speaker 1: of dollars. Right, It's it's not as if these people

1684
01:44:01,600 --> 01:44:03,760
Speaker 1: are you driving to work in the second hand toyo

1685
01:44:03,800 --> 01:44:07,080
Speaker 1: to Corolla like they they are doing very well for

1686
01:44:07,160 --> 01:44:13,200
Speaker 1: themselves of this system, right yep. People will be familiar

1687
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:19,760
Speaker 1: with like farmer Bro, Martin Screlly, the guy. Yeah. Yeah,

1688
01:44:19,880 --> 01:44:23,919
Speaker 1: but it's just one example of a very problematic industry.

1689
01:44:23,960 --> 01:44:26,240
Speaker 1: I think you've done an excellent job of explaining it. David,

1690
01:44:26,360 --> 01:44:28,240
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you'd like to get to before

1691
01:44:28,240 --> 01:44:32,479
Speaker 1: we finish up here? Just Martin, screw you. You call

1692
01:44:32,600 --> 01:44:34,880
Speaker 1: to mind. I won't take you back to MODERNA and

1693
01:44:34,920 --> 01:44:38,240
Speaker 1: the m RNA vaccine. The fact that we not only

1694
01:44:39,040 --> 01:44:42,000
Speaker 1: developed the m r A technology to taxpayer money, but

1695
01:44:42,120 --> 01:44:47,439
Speaker 1: we brought the MODERNA vaccine to two people with taxpayer money,

1696
01:44:47,800 --> 01:44:51,200
Speaker 1: and in the course of doing that, we minted three

1697
01:44:51,280 --> 01:44:56,280
Speaker 1: new MODERNA billionaires. Um, you're talking about I'm not driving

1698
01:44:56,280 --> 01:45:00,800
Speaker 1: to work and uh, you know secondhand Toyota gorillas. Oh

1699
01:45:00,960 --> 01:45:05,160
Speaker 1: far from it. Yeah, these are the people whose yachts

1700
01:45:05,160 --> 01:45:07,439
Speaker 1: I've seen in the bay. I think that's disgusting. Three

1701
01:45:07,479 --> 01:45:12,599
Speaker 1: new millionaires off the back of billionaires billionaires? God? Yeah, God,

1702
01:45:12,760 --> 01:45:15,559
Speaker 1: it's gross, isn't it. Yeah. It can't be said enough.

1703
01:45:15,760 --> 01:45:18,360
Speaker 1: Not only does the NAH fund their research, but often

1704
01:45:18,400 --> 01:45:20,519
Speaker 1: the taxpayers will fund the lab right. If it's at

1705
01:45:20,520 --> 01:45:24,840
Speaker 1: a university, you pay for it twice before before you

1706
01:45:24,880 --> 01:45:27,280
Speaker 1: try and pay for it again at sex. Yeah, it's

1707
01:45:27,280 --> 01:45:31,320
Speaker 1: a very broken system, David. How can people find p

1708
01:45:31,479 --> 01:45:33,280
Speaker 1: F A D. How can people find you? Is our

1709
01:45:33,400 --> 01:45:38,160
Speaker 1: website on Twitter? Facebook? Where should they go? Go to

1710
01:45:38,200 --> 01:45:43,880
Speaker 1: our website Patients for Affordable Drugs dot org. Just like

1711
01:45:43,960 --> 01:45:47,400
Speaker 1: it sounds, you can leave your story if if you

1712
01:45:47,560 --> 01:45:51,160
Speaker 1: or someone you love care about has struggled with high

1713
01:45:51,200 --> 01:45:55,200
Speaker 1: drug prices, give us your email address. We don't ask

1714
01:45:55,280 --> 01:46:00,320
Speaker 1: patients for money, but the stories and email addresses are

1715
01:46:00,439 --> 01:46:06,280
Speaker 1: our power. Uh, They're the they're the currency we trade

1716
01:46:06,280 --> 01:46:10,880
Speaker 1: on to make sure that the voices of people in

1717
01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:16,120
Speaker 1: this country are heard, uh, to counter the propaganda ana

1718
01:46:16,120 --> 01:46:21,519
Speaker 1: lies that are put out by the drug companies. Okay, yeah,

1719
01:46:21,520 --> 01:46:23,880
Speaker 1: that's that's very important stuff that people can hopefully do.

1720
01:46:24,000 --> 01:46:26,719
Speaker 1: Even if they are struggling sort of materially to afford

1721
01:46:26,720 --> 01:46:29,080
Speaker 1: their drugs, maybe they have some time. So that's great.

1722
01:46:29,160 --> 01:46:31,400
Speaker 1: It's four f O R right, not the number four.

1723
01:46:32,040 --> 01:46:34,519
Speaker 1: That's correct. All right, great, Thank you so much, David.

1724
01:46:34,560 --> 01:46:36,960
Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure. You've done excellent job of explaining

1725
01:46:36,960 --> 01:46:40,599
Speaker 1: a very convoluted and broken system. Thank you, James, your

1726
01:46:40,920 --> 01:46:44,639
Speaker 1: your patient man. I try to be sometimes I'm very

1727
01:46:44,720 --> 01:46:47,280
Speaker 1: much not that, but yeah, I do appreciate your time

1728
01:46:47,320 --> 01:46:50,280
Speaker 1: on this Monday morning. Thank you very much, David, thank you.

1729
01:47:04,880 --> 01:47:07,759
Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here a podcast about things

1730
01:47:07,880 --> 01:47:11,400
Speaker 1: falling apart. I am Robert Evans, and today we're going

1731
01:47:11,479 --> 01:47:15,160
Speaker 1: to talk about a specific part of Eurasia where I

1732
01:47:15,160 --> 01:47:17,120
Speaker 1: don't know, things are kind of on the edge of

1733
01:47:17,120 --> 01:47:19,840
Speaker 1: of of falling apart and maybe becoming something else. As

1734
01:47:19,880 --> 01:47:24,360
Speaker 1: I'm sure most people are aware, Russia expanded its invasion

1735
01:47:24,360 --> 01:47:27,760
Speaker 1: of Ukraine earlier this year. UM. It has not gone well,

1736
01:47:27,880 --> 01:47:31,320
Speaker 1: and the government has recently announced that they are doing

1737
01:47:31,320 --> 01:47:35,200
Speaker 1: a general mobilization and bringing in another three thousand soldiers

1738
01:47:35,200 --> 01:47:39,200
Speaker 1: into their armed forces. UH. The significant chunk, if not

1739
01:47:39,360 --> 01:47:42,320
Speaker 1: the bulk, of these recruitments are coming from areas away

1740
01:47:42,360 --> 01:47:46,120
Speaker 1: from the on the periphery of Russian power, you might say, UM,

1741
01:47:46,240 --> 01:47:50,280
Speaker 1: particularly different chunks of the Russian state, UM, where there

1742
01:47:50,320 --> 01:47:55,040
Speaker 1: are minority populations who have been UH dissident to the

1743
01:47:55,120 --> 01:47:58,599
Speaker 1: to the Federation of Russia in the past. UM. Probably

1744
01:47:58,640 --> 01:48:02,400
Speaker 1: the most active of the is a place called Dagistan UM.

1745
01:48:02,439 --> 01:48:05,280
Speaker 1: Most Americans probably are not super well versed on this area.

1746
01:48:05,360 --> 01:48:08,519
Speaker 1: It is the furthest southern point in the Russian state.

1747
01:48:08,880 --> 01:48:13,320
Speaker 1: It borders Azerbaijan. UM, it's pretty close to Turkey and UH.

1748
01:48:13,360 --> 01:48:16,640
Speaker 1: This is a region that has a massive Muslim population

1749
01:48:16,800 --> 01:48:19,080
Speaker 1: and has been the side a whole lot of resistance

1750
01:48:19,080 --> 01:48:21,960
Speaker 1: to the Russian state in the recent past. And today

1751
01:48:22,000 --> 01:48:24,000
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about what that looks like

1752
01:48:24,080 --> 01:48:28,120
Speaker 1: now as the government is attempting to draft men from

1753
01:48:28,120 --> 01:48:34,360
Speaker 1: this part of the state and as sort of resistance

1754
01:48:34,400 --> 01:48:37,720
Speaker 1: has risen up significantly within dagistan UM. I'm going to

1755
01:48:37,800 --> 01:48:42,120
Speaker 1: be talking with Karina Avadisian. Karina is a PhD studying

1756
01:48:42,240 --> 01:48:46,640
Speaker 1: social movements in particularly in Russia. UM. Karina, welcome to

1757
01:48:46,640 --> 01:48:50,840
Speaker 1: the show. Thanks for helping me. UM. So, first off,

1758
01:48:50,880 --> 01:48:54,120
Speaker 1: I'm not an expert on on Dagistan UM. What do

1759
01:48:54,160 --> 01:48:57,720
Speaker 1: you think is important for people to know about the

1760
01:48:57,800 --> 01:49:03,960
Speaker 1: relationship between this region and the Russian state. UM, it's

1761
01:49:04,000 --> 01:49:09,439
Speaker 1: the biggest republic in the North Caucasus, UM, and it

1762
01:49:09,520 --> 01:49:14,080
Speaker 1: has actually independent media still depe despite the really intense

1763
01:49:14,120 --> 01:49:18,640
Speaker 1: repression UM and the dozens of disappeared or murdered journalists

1764
01:49:18,640 --> 01:49:24,000
Speaker 1: from from the republic. UM kinship ties are strong in Dugistan.

1765
01:49:24,160 --> 01:49:27,320
Speaker 1: So the announcement of mobilization and the kind of you know,

1766
01:49:27,400 --> 01:49:31,880
Speaker 1: the sort of the mobilization process um, really affects people

1767
01:49:31,880 --> 01:49:34,599
Speaker 1: because extended families are closed, So when someone has taken

1768
01:49:34,640 --> 01:49:37,479
Speaker 1: away to affects a lot of people. UM. So that

1769
01:49:37,760 --> 01:49:41,240
Speaker 1: UM in large part kind of explains the level of mobilization.

1770
01:49:42,000 --> 01:49:44,680
Speaker 1: The other thing I want to mention is that the

1771
01:49:44,720 --> 01:49:49,520
Speaker 1: North Caucasus region in general, but especially Dugistan and Chechnia

1772
01:49:50,200 --> 01:49:54,679
Speaker 1: UM just kind of don't see themselves as part of Russia. UM.

1773
01:49:54,760 --> 01:49:58,439
Speaker 1: To be honest, Russians don't really care about what happens

1774
01:49:58,479 --> 01:50:00,920
Speaker 1: there either. I mean, you know, it's as if it's

1775
01:50:00,960 --> 01:50:05,200
Speaker 1: another country and there's this huge disconnect um. So there

1776
01:50:05,240 --> 01:50:09,360
Speaker 1: doesn't really exist this kind of civic Russian identity UM.

1777
01:50:09,360 --> 01:50:11,720
Speaker 1: And the concept of Russia as a country is to

1778
01:50:11,800 --> 01:50:17,519
Speaker 1: a large extent held together by sheer oppression and propagania. UM. Yeah.

1779
01:50:17,560 --> 01:50:19,479
Speaker 1: That's kind of kind of why I try to focus

1780
01:50:19,520 --> 01:50:21,639
Speaker 1: on like this is a part of the Russian state

1781
01:50:21,760 --> 01:50:24,400
Speaker 1: rather than like these areas are Russian, because that's certainly

1782
01:50:24,520 --> 01:50:26,120
Speaker 1: not the way it feels on the ground or the

1783
01:50:26,160 --> 01:50:31,599
Speaker 1: people feel about themselves. Yeah, exactly, UM. And you can

1784
01:50:31,680 --> 01:50:35,000
Speaker 1: kind of see differences in the way police respond to

1785
01:50:35,080 --> 01:50:40,840
Speaker 1: these protests in Russian regions versus places like Dagistan Um.

1786
01:50:41,000 --> 01:50:43,600
Speaker 1: In Russian regions and by Russian region, I mean, you know,

1787
01:50:43,640 --> 01:50:47,600
Speaker 1: places where you know, Russia, ethnic Russians are a majority. Um,

1788
01:50:47,720 --> 01:50:50,439
Speaker 1: you have people or you have police kind of arresting

1789
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:56,800
Speaker 1: or detaining interresting protesters, whereas in Dakistan Um you know,

1790
01:50:57,760 --> 01:51:01,360
Speaker 1: the tactics of the arrest sing people. You know, her

1791
01:51:01,439 --> 01:51:04,240
Speaker 1: being kind of carted off is really significant because of

1792
01:51:04,280 --> 01:51:08,920
Speaker 1: the history of violence in the republic UM, so abductions, UM,

1793
01:51:09,320 --> 01:51:12,840
Speaker 1: disappearances and murder is very common. UM. And this is

1794
01:51:12,880 --> 01:51:17,760
Speaker 1: something that I've heard Dakistani protest participants kind of expressed

1795
01:51:17,920 --> 01:51:20,880
Speaker 1: fear about, Like you know, people know that that might happen.

1796
01:51:21,000 --> 01:51:24,720
Speaker 1: You might get identified among the protesters, and you might

1797
01:51:24,720 --> 01:51:26,720
Speaker 1: not get detained interested like you would you know in

1798
01:51:26,760 --> 01:51:29,520
Speaker 1: Moscow for example, but you might get you know, identified

1799
01:51:29,560 --> 01:51:33,519
Speaker 1: and then kind of targeted later, which is yeah, I mean,

1800
01:51:33,640 --> 01:51:36,880
Speaker 1: obviously very frightening. UM. One of the things that I

1801
01:51:36,920 --> 01:51:41,559
Speaker 1: had read kind of about part some of the origins

1802
01:51:41,600 --> 01:51:43,320
Speaker 1: of the conflict in the region right now is that

1803
01:51:44,040 --> 01:51:46,720
Speaker 1: it had been common for some time because the the

1804
01:51:46,760 --> 01:51:50,080
Speaker 1: economy in Dagistan. Dakistan is in the Caucusus, which is

1805
01:51:50,160 --> 01:51:52,800
Speaker 1: a mountainous region in southern Russia, and it's where a

1806
01:51:52,840 --> 01:51:56,200
Speaker 1: great deal of the country's fuel comes from. Um. There

1807
01:51:56,200 --> 01:52:00,000
Speaker 1: are kind of folks who will say that the government

1808
01:52:00,040 --> 01:52:04,519
Speaker 1: of the Federation has like avoided utilizing that infrastructure to

1809
01:52:04,520 --> 01:52:06,920
Speaker 1: the most that it can to avoid providing jobs, and

1810
01:52:06,960 --> 01:52:10,080
Speaker 1: it's made a lot of young men join the military

1811
01:52:10,120 --> 01:52:12,400
Speaker 1: to become contract soldiers. In the past, that was a

1812
01:52:12,439 --> 01:52:14,880
Speaker 1: good way to provide for if you had a large family,

1813
01:52:15,200 --> 01:52:17,519
Speaker 1: you do a military contract, you're not going to get

1814
01:52:17,520 --> 01:52:20,599
Speaker 1: sent outside of the region. It's pretty safe. But then

1815
01:52:20,640 --> 01:52:23,400
Speaker 1: of course Putin invades Ukraine and suddenly a lot of

1816
01:52:23,400 --> 01:52:26,000
Speaker 1: these people who had been doing this not because they

1817
01:52:26,280 --> 01:52:29,000
Speaker 1: wanted to support the Russian Federation because it was a job,

1818
01:52:29,040 --> 01:52:31,920
Speaker 1: are suddenly being sent to go fight and die in

1819
01:52:32,479 --> 01:52:36,720
Speaker 1: outside of kharkivor wherever. Yeah. The other thing is that's

1820
01:52:36,720 --> 01:52:39,200
Speaker 1: why there's so many security personnel kind of internally in

1821
01:52:39,240 --> 01:52:42,760
Speaker 1: the republic as well. So the Republic experiences high unemployment. UM.

1822
01:52:42,840 --> 01:52:46,840
Speaker 1: That's mentioned poverty, UM. And it's almost my design rights.

1823
01:52:47,040 --> 01:52:49,240
Speaker 1: So many people just relying on this state for jobs

1824
01:52:49,360 --> 01:52:53,280
Speaker 1: and security UM services. It's one of the main UM

1825
01:52:53,640 --> 01:52:56,080
Speaker 1: sources of employment. But that also kind of has that

1826
01:52:56,280 --> 01:52:59,080
Speaker 1: double effect of UM, you know, being used as a

1827
01:52:59,080 --> 01:53:01,479
Speaker 1: tool for repression. So anytime kind of descent comes up,

1828
01:53:01,520 --> 01:53:05,120
Speaker 1: even you know, when a large part of the grievances

1829
01:53:05,160 --> 01:53:07,360
Speaker 1: are about poverty and unemployment and just kind of having

1830
01:53:07,360 --> 01:53:12,720
Speaker 1: a future, you have UM a kind of excess of

1831
01:53:12,720 --> 01:53:16,120
Speaker 1: people who are ready to kind of suppress UM any

1832
01:53:16,120 --> 01:53:19,920
Speaker 1: expression of kind of descent that might lead to problems later.

1833
01:53:20,520 --> 01:53:23,000
Speaker 1: And it seems like a great deal of discent right

1834
01:53:23,040 --> 01:53:27,000
Speaker 1: now is coming from UM, the Muslim pop in, particularly

1835
01:53:27,000 --> 01:53:30,600
Speaker 1: like the Muslim religious community within Dagastan. The reason that

1836
01:53:30,640 --> 01:53:32,080
Speaker 1: you and I are talking right now is you you

1837
01:53:32,880 --> 01:53:36,120
Speaker 1: shared and commented on a post um that someone was

1838
01:53:36,160 --> 01:53:40,520
Speaker 1: sharing a piece of protest art um that was referencing

1839
01:53:40,560 --> 01:53:44,960
Speaker 1: a recent comment by the Deputy Mufti of Dagastan UM

1840
01:53:45,040 --> 01:53:48,760
Speaker 1: and it's a stylized drawing of several mountains on a

1841
01:53:48,800 --> 01:53:51,879
Speaker 1: green background that says the invader doesn't become a martyr.

1842
01:53:52,360 --> 01:53:55,040
Speaker 1: And if I'm interpreting that correctly, what what that's saying

1843
01:53:55,240 --> 01:53:57,320
Speaker 1: is it's it's a statement of protests from within the

1844
01:53:57,400 --> 01:54:00,479
Speaker 1: Islamic community of Dagastan saying, if you go to someone

1845
01:54:00,479 --> 01:54:04,000
Speaker 1: else's homeland to take part in an invasion and you die,

1846
01:54:04,360 --> 01:54:06,800
Speaker 1: you're not being martyred, You're not dying in a way

1847
01:54:06,840 --> 01:54:10,880
Speaker 1: that is that is, you know, uh, respected by a

1848
01:54:10,960 --> 01:54:15,840
Speaker 1: law essentially. Is that am I? Am I interpreting that correctly? Yeah? Absolutely, Yeah,

1849
01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:18,800
Speaker 1: that's exactly what it's saying. I found that remarkable, UM

1850
01:54:18,840 --> 01:54:21,160
Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons. UM. The first is that

1851
01:54:22,080 --> 01:54:24,760
Speaker 1: descend in the region originally, so you know, after the

1852
01:54:24,760 --> 01:54:26,800
Speaker 1: collapse of the Soviet Union and then the First Church

1853
01:54:26,880 --> 01:54:29,559
Speaker 1: in War, there was descent, but it was mostly limited

1854
01:54:29,600 --> 01:54:33,879
Speaker 1: to ethno nationalist movements who were very narrow in their messaging.

1855
01:54:34,040 --> 01:54:37,400
Speaker 1: So their grievances were, you know, just about their one

1856
01:54:37,440 --> 01:54:40,160
Speaker 1: ethnic group and you know, whatever repression that they experienced.

1857
01:54:40,160 --> 01:54:43,600
Speaker 1: So UM, they kind of missed out on broader support

1858
01:54:44,200 --> 01:54:50,240
Speaker 1: and political Islam became a channel for UM kind of

1859
01:54:50,240 --> 01:54:56,800
Speaker 1: representing oppositional identity. UM. And because of that cutting across

1860
01:54:56,800 --> 01:55:00,240
Speaker 1: the ethnic lines through selfism, which is U kind of

1861
01:55:00,280 --> 01:55:05,400
Speaker 1: a stricter interpretation of Islam, which is prone to radicalization. UM,

1862
01:55:05,440 --> 01:55:09,800
Speaker 1: that had much broader support and posed a significant threat

1863
01:55:09,840 --> 01:55:11,680
Speaker 1: to Moscow, And I want to kind of make a

1864
01:55:11,680 --> 01:55:16,760
Speaker 1: parallel here because UM, mosques and religious communities across the

1865
01:55:16,760 --> 01:55:22,920
Speaker 1: world are actually really um interesting spaces for social movement mobilization. UM.

1866
01:55:23,000 --> 01:55:26,240
Speaker 1: Some of the earliest works on social movement mobilization talked

1867
01:55:26,280 --> 01:55:30,720
Speaker 1: about black churches in the US as being you know,

1868
01:55:31,120 --> 01:55:33,320
Speaker 1: key to the civil rights movement because you know, these

1869
01:55:33,360 --> 01:55:35,920
Speaker 1: spaces that are kind of away from the state, away

1870
01:55:35,960 --> 01:55:39,840
Speaker 1: from surveillance. Although in Legistan and lots of parts of

1871
01:55:39,960 --> 01:55:44,120
Speaker 1: Russian Muslim spaces are are up totally unfiltrated by the

1872
01:55:44,120 --> 01:55:46,880
Speaker 1: state or they're actually you know, state most these or

1873
01:55:47,440 --> 01:55:50,200
Speaker 1: the state's eyes and ears are kind of there. But

1874
01:55:50,400 --> 01:55:53,560
Speaker 1: still there's these spaces, and I think that's a big,

1875
01:55:53,680 --> 01:55:57,280
Speaker 1: kind of, um significant key factor in how this movement

1876
01:55:57,280 --> 01:56:01,600
Speaker 1: has been able to mobilize and interested in Because obviously

1877
01:56:02,040 --> 01:56:04,240
Speaker 1: Chechnia is another part of Russia that has a large

1878
01:56:04,280 --> 01:56:08,120
Speaker 1: Muslim population. There was a horrible war, they're not all

1879
01:56:08,160 --> 01:56:10,960
Speaker 1: that long ago. That is really a prelude in a

1880
01:56:10,960 --> 01:56:12,720
Speaker 1: lot of waste to the kinds of violence and the

1881
01:56:12,800 --> 01:56:15,120
Speaker 1: kinds of oppressive tactics that are being used right now

1882
01:56:15,200 --> 01:56:19,840
Speaker 1: by the Russian state. UM, what what sort of separates,

1883
01:56:20,280 --> 01:56:22,960
Speaker 1: like why didn't Dagastan kind of go the same way

1884
01:56:23,000 --> 01:56:26,960
Speaker 1: as czech Nia, Like how I'm kind of interested in

1885
01:56:26,960 --> 01:56:31,280
Speaker 1: in and that because it seems as if the Muftis

1886
01:56:31,280 --> 01:56:34,080
Speaker 1: there are much more willing to kind of act in

1887
01:56:34,120 --> 01:56:36,600
Speaker 1: resistance to the States. Still, is it just a factor

1888
01:56:36,640 --> 01:56:38,920
Speaker 1: of the violence that was unleached on Chechnya earlier? Is

1889
01:56:38,920 --> 01:56:42,480
Speaker 1: there more to it? Um? I think in large part

1890
01:56:42,600 --> 01:56:45,160
Speaker 1: it's yeah. I mean, it's the legacy of violence and

1891
01:56:45,240 --> 01:56:48,400
Speaker 1: war um in Chechnia. But I think it's partly because

1892
01:56:48,520 --> 01:56:52,160
Speaker 1: of how this kind of historical view of touching as

1893
01:56:52,200 --> 01:56:54,840
Speaker 1: being um, you know, a threat a problem for the

1894
01:56:54,880 --> 01:56:57,480
Speaker 1: Russian Empire previously, and then so the Union and then

1895
01:56:57,800 --> 01:57:02,360
Speaker 1: you know independent Russia, you know, um, And it's really

1896
01:57:02,400 --> 01:57:06,680
Speaker 1: the rule of Ramsanka ditto, which plays a really suppressing

1897
01:57:07,320 --> 01:57:13,280
Speaker 1: role in the republic and his security services Chechnia has

1898
01:57:13,360 --> 01:57:17,560
Speaker 1: experienced post war. I would argue it's it's calmer and

1899
01:57:17,680 --> 01:57:19,720
Speaker 1: in a in a strange way. I mean, I was

1900
01:57:20,080 --> 01:57:21,920
Speaker 1: when I was doing my field work in the North Cooxus,

1901
01:57:22,000 --> 01:57:25,280
Speaker 1: I visited Czechnia. I was in Cambodno Bolkaria, which is

1902
01:57:25,320 --> 01:57:28,280
Speaker 1: you know a couple of republics over Um it didn't

1903
01:57:28,280 --> 01:57:31,000
Speaker 1: experience war, but I remember at the time there were

1904
01:57:31,040 --> 01:57:35,560
Speaker 1: counter terrorists operations in Carbdna Bulkaria, where the security services

1905
01:57:35,600 --> 01:57:37,960
Speaker 1: would kind of lock down whole neighborhoods and kind of

1906
01:57:37,960 --> 01:57:40,520
Speaker 1: storm impartment buildings to go after someone who had been

1907
01:57:40,600 --> 01:57:42,960
Speaker 1: you know, identified as a problem and just kind of

1908
01:57:43,000 --> 01:57:45,680
Speaker 1: you know, neutralize that person. They were rarely detained, they

1909
01:57:45,680 --> 01:57:48,920
Speaker 1: would just kind of kill, no questions us. Then going

1910
01:57:48,960 --> 01:57:52,920
Speaker 1: to Chechnia from that kind of context, that stuff doesn't happen,

1911
01:57:53,320 --> 01:57:57,000
Speaker 1: just because the security apparatus is so strong and so

1912
01:57:57,080 --> 01:58:01,200
Speaker 1: intense that that kind of thing doesn't happen. At the

1913
01:58:01,240 --> 01:58:04,839
Speaker 1: same time, you feel that tension, that kind of fear. Um.

1914
01:58:04,880 --> 01:58:08,280
Speaker 1: So I think that's the main reason why, um, you're

1915
01:58:08,320 --> 01:58:11,840
Speaker 1: not seeing these sort of protests in Chechnia. When we

1916
01:58:11,920 --> 01:58:15,600
Speaker 1: talk about like what is it reasonable to hope for here?

1917
01:58:16,000 --> 01:58:17,640
Speaker 1: I wonder if you have any thoughts on that from

1918
01:58:17,720 --> 01:58:21,680
Speaker 1: Dagastan like in terms of resistance to both this kind

1919
01:58:21,720 --> 01:58:25,440
Speaker 1: of general conscription order and resistance in general to the

1920
01:58:25,680 --> 01:58:29,400
Speaker 1: to the increasing imperial aims of the Russian state. Yeah,

1921
01:58:29,560 --> 01:58:32,080
Speaker 1: I think it's revealing those tracks that I mentioned in

1922
01:58:32,080 --> 01:58:34,880
Speaker 1: the beginning about identity and then kind of this this

1923
01:58:34,960 --> 01:58:39,200
Speaker 1: region not feeling like a part of Russia. And I think, um,

1924
01:58:39,560 --> 01:58:44,200
Speaker 1: the other thing is that it it it's unprecedented in

1925
01:58:44,240 --> 01:58:46,720
Speaker 1: many ways just in terms of its messaging, and your

1926
01:58:46,800 --> 01:58:50,080
Speaker 1: protest movements in general are seemed to kind of when

1927
01:58:50,120 --> 01:58:53,760
Speaker 1: you participate in a movement, UM, it's it's really transforming

1928
01:58:54,360 --> 01:58:57,200
Speaker 1: on an individual level. You feel like you're part of something.

1929
01:58:57,280 --> 01:59:00,240
Speaker 1: You see all these other people on the street, who

1930
01:59:00,240 --> 01:59:03,560
Speaker 1: are you agreeing with you in a context that's so

1931
01:59:03,680 --> 01:59:06,440
Speaker 1: authoritarian where and you don't you know, have that freedom

1932
01:59:06,560 --> 01:59:09,280
Speaker 1: to speak out there's no free media. Um. In general.

1933
01:59:09,840 --> 01:59:14,760
Speaker 1: Um it's it's it's transformative. And I think that's probably

1934
01:59:15,200 --> 01:59:17,640
Speaker 1: for me, at least as a social movement scholar, the

1935
01:59:17,680 --> 01:59:20,160
Speaker 1: most interesting aspects. I mean, we can't predict, We don't

1936
01:59:20,160 --> 01:59:22,240
Speaker 1: know what's going to happen. There might be in a

1937
01:59:22,280 --> 01:59:25,680
Speaker 1: new wave of repression. UM, but it's it's revealing these

1938
01:59:25,680 --> 01:59:33,600
Speaker 1: cracks and um kind of almost providing this proof of

1939
01:59:33,640 --> 01:59:37,560
Speaker 1: the the lie of this you know, unified Russian state

1940
01:59:37,960 --> 01:59:41,920
Speaker 1: that that is being kept together by a repression in propaganda. UM.

1941
01:59:41,960 --> 01:59:46,520
Speaker 1: I think the messaging also reflects a change in identity

1942
01:59:46,720 --> 01:59:52,960
Speaker 1: in oppositional identity in the region. Um. Previously, protests in

1943
01:59:52,960 --> 01:59:56,440
Speaker 1: the region were directed at the local leadership, so at

1944
01:59:56,440 --> 02:00:00,680
Speaker 1: the republican level. Right, so these are usually con who

1945
02:00:00,760 --> 02:00:03,960
Speaker 1: are installed by Moscow, not so much to govern, but

1946
02:00:04,040 --> 02:00:08,040
Speaker 1: more to manage UM and check and leader Ransankada is

1947
02:00:08,240 --> 02:00:11,000
Speaker 1: an extreme caste of this. And it was a practice

1948
02:00:11,040 --> 02:00:13,840
Speaker 1: common in Imperial Russia. Right, you install your own guy,

1949
02:00:13,880 --> 02:00:16,640
Speaker 1: but he's local, so it fits better with the population,

1950
02:00:17,400 --> 02:00:20,160
Speaker 1: even if they're only there to carry out policies that

1951
02:00:20,200 --> 02:00:24,320
Speaker 1: are decided and um. So those protest movements were normally

1952
02:00:24,360 --> 02:00:30,640
Speaker 1: against the republican authorities, um, their excesses, their corruption, um,

1953
02:00:30,760 --> 02:00:33,840
Speaker 1: you know. And again the exception to that is philopism,

1954
02:00:33,880 --> 02:00:37,320
Speaker 1: which was targeting both Moscow and the local leadership. But

1955
02:00:37,560 --> 02:00:42,320
Speaker 1: here in this new wave of protest movement, the sentiment

1956
02:00:42,360 --> 02:00:47,520
Speaker 1: the grievances against Putin and that's totally now. And I

1957
02:00:48,640 --> 02:00:50,720
Speaker 1: one of the things that is kind of remarkable is

1958
02:00:51,560 --> 02:00:53,640
Speaker 1: you've gotten in the wave of and these are not

1959
02:00:53,720 --> 02:00:55,920
Speaker 1: just in Dagistan, but Dagistan had a lot of the

1960
02:00:55,920 --> 02:01:00,640
Speaker 1: protest against this general mobilization order. You actually have what

1961
02:01:00,640 --> 02:01:03,400
Speaker 1: what looks to me and you're you're certainly certainly no

1962
02:01:03,440 --> 02:01:04,720
Speaker 1: more than I do. So tell me if you think

1963
02:01:04,760 --> 02:01:06,680
Speaker 1: my analysis, if this is wrong. But looks to me

1964
02:01:06,720 --> 02:01:09,680
Speaker 1: like the regime blinking a little bit, because in the

1965
02:01:09,720 --> 02:01:12,400
Speaker 1: wake of the protests, you had both Putin and a

1966
02:01:12,440 --> 02:01:14,400
Speaker 1: number of different local leaders come out and say we

1967
02:01:14,720 --> 02:01:16,840
Speaker 1: because one of the things that was happening as soon

1968
02:01:16,880 --> 02:01:19,360
Speaker 1: as the mobilization started, as you saw a lot of

1969
02:01:19,360 --> 02:01:22,800
Speaker 1: these people, including like doctors, healthcare workers, other kinds of

1970
02:01:22,840 --> 02:01:25,680
Speaker 1: professionals and industries that are generally protected from this sort

1971
02:01:25,680 --> 02:01:29,040
Speaker 1: of thing getting pulled in by state forces and effectively

1972
02:01:29,120 --> 02:01:33,000
Speaker 1: drafted on the spot along with protesters and um. The

1973
02:01:33,200 --> 02:01:36,280
Speaker 1: in the wake of the outcry against that, Putin himself

1974
02:01:36,280 --> 02:01:39,080
Speaker 1: and a number of other local leaders have come out

1975
02:01:39,120 --> 02:01:41,040
Speaker 1: and been like, this was a mistake. We're releasing a

1976
02:01:41,120 --> 02:01:43,640
Speaker 1: number of these people, these these certain certain you know,

1977
02:01:44,000 --> 02:01:46,160
Speaker 1: we're not supposed to be drafting people from these certain

1978
02:01:46,160 --> 02:01:49,200
Speaker 1: professions and whatnot. And to me that looked like, well,

1979
02:01:49,240 --> 02:01:51,240
Speaker 1: maybe that's a little bit of a blink. Um, But

1980
02:01:51,280 --> 02:01:55,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if perhaps I'm being overly optimistic there. No,

1981
02:01:55,120 --> 02:01:58,520
Speaker 1: I agree, um, And it speaks to the level of

1982
02:01:58,560 --> 02:02:03,320
Speaker 1: mobilization that kind of un stended. Um Um. Levels of

1983
02:02:03,360 --> 02:02:08,240
Speaker 1: mobilization on the street and also speaks to the fact

1984
02:02:08,320 --> 02:02:11,160
Speaker 1: that you know, previously Moscow, I mean they didn't care

1985
02:02:11,240 --> 02:02:14,600
Speaker 1: as much when the protests were directed at the local authorities.

1986
02:02:14,680 --> 02:02:17,120
Speaker 1: I mean they did, but not like this. This is

1987
02:02:17,200 --> 02:02:19,560
Speaker 1: this is threatening UM. And I was listening to an

1988
02:02:19,560 --> 02:02:23,800
Speaker 1: interview of a protest organizer from Augustan. He's exiled, like

1989
02:02:23,840 --> 02:02:25,560
Speaker 1: he's kind of you know, in touch with the people

1990
02:02:25,600 --> 02:02:27,600
Speaker 1: on the ground and he and he was talking about

1991
02:02:28,160 --> 02:02:33,440
Speaker 1: how he felt that the reason mobilization orders have been

1992
02:02:33,760 --> 02:02:38,480
Speaker 1: UM commissioned kind of to the Republican regional authorities is

1993
02:02:39,360 --> 02:02:44,640
Speaker 1: on purpose so that grievances UM aren't directed towards Moscow,

1994
02:02:44,680 --> 02:02:47,800
Speaker 1: because it's the regional authorities deciding on who's being mobilized. UM.

1995
02:02:48,040 --> 02:02:51,640
Speaker 1: And it's a kind of deflection of blame that he

1996
02:02:51,720 --> 02:02:56,040
Speaker 1: thought was by design. And the interviewer asked him a

1997
02:02:56,040 --> 02:02:57,880
Speaker 1: couple of other questions. He was saying, oh, you know,

1998
02:02:58,120 --> 02:03:01,360
Speaker 1: we're hearing reports about the police being really brutal um.

1999
02:03:01,400 --> 02:03:05,400
Speaker 1: And again he was like, no, not really, or that's

2000
02:03:05,400 --> 02:03:07,360
Speaker 1: not the point, that's not the question to be asking.

2001
02:03:07,400 --> 02:03:10,720
Speaker 1: It's actually deflecting because again, the grievance is not to

2002
02:03:10,760 --> 02:03:13,480
Speaker 1: the local police. It's actually towards Moscow, who is you know,

2003
02:03:13,840 --> 02:03:17,640
Speaker 1: the origin of this whole problem, and I think that's

2004
02:03:17,720 --> 02:03:20,400
Speaker 1: that's a threat. Do you have any kind of advice

2005
02:03:20,440 --> 02:03:23,120
Speaker 1: for people if they're looking as kind of things continue

2006
02:03:23,160 --> 02:03:26,640
Speaker 1: to develop in Dagistan as there are more protests, which

2007
02:03:26,640 --> 02:03:30,360
Speaker 1: I'm sure there will be. Are there actually like organizations

2008
02:03:30,360 --> 02:03:32,879
Speaker 1: over there that can be supported by people, um, including

2009
02:03:32,880 --> 02:03:35,920
Speaker 1: you mentioned independent media there. UM. I'm just wondering if

2010
02:03:35,920 --> 02:03:37,840
Speaker 1: you have any kind of particular advice for folks who

2011
02:03:37,880 --> 02:03:40,480
Speaker 1: might either want to learn more about the region what's

2012
02:03:40,520 --> 02:03:43,080
Speaker 1: going on, um, or who might want to try and

2013
02:03:43,160 --> 02:03:49,120
Speaker 1: help the people who are protesting right now. UM. Unfortunately,

2014
02:03:49,160 --> 02:03:52,440
Speaker 1: there's um not much for outsiders to do a lot

2015
02:03:52,440 --> 02:03:54,080
Speaker 1: of the news, and I think it was kind of

2016
02:03:54,120 --> 02:03:57,440
Speaker 1: expecting that the answer. Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's kind

2017
02:03:57,480 --> 02:04:00,320
Speaker 1: of a denied context. So where I get the news

2018
02:04:00,520 --> 02:04:04,240
Speaker 1: is a couple of telegram channels that are only in Russian. UM,

2019
02:04:04,320 --> 02:04:06,840
Speaker 1: so that probably doesn't help your audience if they don't

2020
02:04:06,840 --> 02:04:09,840
Speaker 1: speak Russian. There's a couple of Twitter accounts that I

2021
02:04:09,840 --> 02:04:13,400
Speaker 1: would recommend people follow, you know, UM, there's UM, I

2022
02:04:13,440 --> 02:04:17,680
Speaker 1: don't know, I can mention that or yeah, please, no, absolutely,

2023
02:04:18,800 --> 02:04:21,280
Speaker 1: let me quickly find the guide personally. When it comes

2024
02:04:21,280 --> 02:04:23,600
Speaker 1: to like where I'm able to get English language news

2025
02:04:23,760 --> 02:04:27,240
Speaker 1: about the region, Medusa is generally kind of like one

2026
02:04:27,240 --> 02:04:29,200
Speaker 1: of the places where I've gotten some. Medusa is a

2027
02:04:29,280 --> 02:04:33,360
Speaker 1: Russian news site that's or news organization that's banned in Russia.

2028
02:04:33,400 --> 02:04:35,680
Speaker 1: In fact, if I'm not mistaken, a MEDUSA journalist just

2029
02:04:35,720 --> 02:04:40,120
Speaker 1: got arrested in Dagastan by the State Security Services. UM.

2030
02:04:40,160 --> 02:04:43,320
Speaker 1: But you can go to Medusa dot io and that's

2031
02:04:43,360 --> 02:04:47,800
Speaker 1: one place where I've come across news that's English language. UM.

2032
02:04:47,840 --> 02:04:50,200
Speaker 1: It's not the most detailed coverage, but it's kind of

2033
02:04:50,200 --> 02:04:52,160
Speaker 1: hard to find that in English about stuff going on

2034
02:04:52,160 --> 02:04:54,440
Speaker 1: in Dagistan. It is, it is hard to find it.

2035
02:04:54,520 --> 02:04:57,920
Speaker 1: I would echo that sentiment of Medusa being a good

2036
02:04:57,920 --> 02:05:01,840
Speaker 1: source for that. UM. There's a researcher on Twitter named

2037
02:05:01,880 --> 02:05:05,920
Speaker 1: Harold Chambers. His handle is Chambers Harold eight, the number eight,

2038
02:05:06,120 --> 02:05:09,400
Speaker 1: and he is an analyst and he is posting kind

2039
02:05:09,400 --> 02:05:12,080
Speaker 1: of more detailed, you know, in the weeds, up to

2040
02:05:12,280 --> 02:05:16,520
Speaker 1: you know, up to date, day to day developments from

2041
02:05:16,560 --> 02:05:20,000
Speaker 1: from the region. UM. And is there anything like as

2042
02:05:20,080 --> 02:05:23,520
Speaker 1: as we I'm kind of closing out here UM that

2043
02:05:23,560 --> 02:05:26,320
Speaker 1: you wanted to particularly get into about what's happening over

2044
02:05:26,360 --> 02:05:30,200
Speaker 1: there about kind of um, the development of social movements

2045
02:05:30,200 --> 02:05:33,680
Speaker 1: in Dagistan right now that you you find particularly fascinating

2046
02:05:33,680 --> 02:05:36,720
Speaker 1: that you'd like to kind of talk about to the audience. Yeah,

2047
02:05:36,920 --> 02:05:39,760
Speaker 1: I think, um, the context of the Russian war on

2048
02:05:39,880 --> 02:05:44,080
Speaker 1: terrorism in the North Caucasus praise a huge role here um.

2049
02:05:44,120 --> 02:05:46,840
Speaker 1: And I mentioned, you know, the counter terrorists operations that

2050
02:05:46,840 --> 02:05:49,160
Speaker 1: that Russia used to use in the region as a

2051
02:05:49,160 --> 02:05:52,560
Speaker 1: repression tool um, so they didn't have to be sal

2052
02:05:52,560 --> 02:05:55,600
Speaker 1: office or kind of you know, seeing this extremists to

2053
02:05:55,760 --> 02:05:58,880
Speaker 1: be targeted and stuff like that, like secular Dakistani's and

2054
02:05:58,920 --> 02:06:02,240
Speaker 1: Chechens were absolutely targeted, and and that kind of in

2055
02:06:02,320 --> 02:06:05,680
Speaker 1: those um in in those um in that context of

2056
02:06:06,000 --> 02:06:08,839
Speaker 1: counter terrorism. And it's really the fact that your dungiesst

2057
02:06:08,840 --> 02:06:13,240
Speaker 1: studies are really tired of the repression. People leave the

2058
02:06:13,280 --> 02:06:16,640
Speaker 1: republic and move abroad um because they've been labeled a

2059
02:06:16,720 --> 02:06:19,160
Speaker 1: terrorist and they don't want to die um. And when

2060
02:06:19,160 --> 02:06:22,320
Speaker 1: their families send them money um to support them abroad,

2061
02:06:22,520 --> 02:06:25,640
Speaker 1: they get um labeled as terrorists because they're helping you know,

2062
02:06:25,680 --> 02:06:29,800
Speaker 1: support a terrorists. So it's it's why It's also why

2063
02:06:29,840 --> 02:06:34,040
Speaker 1: the movement is leaderless um, because there's really no intelligencia

2064
02:06:34,120 --> 02:06:36,840
Speaker 1: or leaders left in the republic um anywhere. Anyone who

2065
02:06:36,920 --> 02:06:40,320
Speaker 1: had any kind of critical standpoint um has either been

2066
02:06:40,360 --> 02:06:43,800
Speaker 1: killed or exiled. So we have to see the mobilization

2067
02:06:43,840 --> 02:06:45,960
Speaker 1: in Dungista is kind of you know, with that backdrop,

2068
02:06:46,280 --> 02:06:51,280
Speaker 1: people are tired of the repression um and and yeah,

2069
02:06:51,320 --> 02:06:54,760
Speaker 1: the protests are spontaneous, and the fact that it's horizontal

2070
02:06:55,000 --> 02:06:59,280
Speaker 1: is also unprecedented, and it obviously means that it's much

2071
02:06:59,320 --> 02:07:02,600
Speaker 1: harder to repress the movement and suppress it because there's

2072
02:07:02,600 --> 02:07:06,400
Speaker 1: no individuals to kind of target. That's interesting because that's

2073
02:07:06,400 --> 02:07:10,080
Speaker 1: obviously a global trend that we've seen in protest movements,

2074
02:07:10,120 --> 02:07:12,600
Speaker 1: not just against the Russian state, that around the world,

2075
02:07:12,680 --> 02:07:17,600
Speaker 1: governments have gotten much better at note finding leaders in

2076
02:07:17,760 --> 02:07:23,000
Speaker 1: protest movements, compromising them, going after them, targeting them, arresting them. Um.

2077
02:07:23,040 --> 02:07:25,360
Speaker 1: It's and I think this has been a part of

2078
02:07:25,400 --> 02:07:27,840
Speaker 1: why all over the world you've seen so many more

2079
02:07:27,880 --> 02:07:33,200
Speaker 1: horizontal movements leading street protests against different kinds of oppression,

2080
02:07:33,280 --> 02:07:36,920
Speaker 1: because it's really the only thing that can't be compromised

2081
02:07:36,920 --> 02:07:45,680
Speaker 1: easily by the security forces. Yeah, especially in an authoritarian contexts. Yeah. Well, um, Karina,

2082
02:07:45,720 --> 02:07:47,480
Speaker 1: is there anything else you wanted to say before we

2083
02:07:47,600 --> 02:07:51,320
Speaker 1: close out? No, No, that's all right. Well why don't

2084
02:07:51,360 --> 02:07:53,560
Speaker 1: we talk a little bit about your plugs here, because

2085
02:07:53,640 --> 02:07:57,240
Speaker 1: you have a podcast that you're about to be starting, Yeah,

2086
02:07:57,640 --> 02:08:01,880
Speaker 1: starting a podcast. It is called obscurest Den Podcasts, where

2087
02:08:01,960 --> 02:08:06,400
Speaker 1: we'll talk about the bizarre and fucked up nature of

2088
02:08:06,520 --> 02:08:09,640
Speaker 1: the region of Eurasia. Um, but also more importantly how

2089
02:08:09,640 --> 02:08:12,280
Speaker 1: it got that way. Yeah, so that's what we're doing.

2090
02:08:12,680 --> 02:08:15,680
Speaker 1: I can think a few more topics, more important topics

2091
02:08:15,680 --> 02:08:19,040
Speaker 1: for people, particularly people just where I live. To understand,

2092
02:08:19,120 --> 02:08:21,760
Speaker 1: so many people have been affected in in You know,

2093
02:08:21,760 --> 02:08:25,200
Speaker 1: we're looking at the energy crisis hitting the UK and

2094
02:08:25,200 --> 02:08:27,920
Speaker 1: and to a slightly lesser extent, continental Europe. Right now,

2095
02:08:27,960 --> 02:08:31,040
Speaker 1: we're looking at rising food prices in the United States,

2096
02:08:31,120 --> 02:08:34,400
Speaker 1: all of it tied to this conflict, which people wouldn't

2097
02:08:34,400 --> 02:08:37,320
Speaker 1: have been surprised by if they'd been paying attention to

2098
02:08:37,360 --> 02:08:41,360
Speaker 1: Eurasian history and politics a little bit more. Um. So

2099
02:08:41,560 --> 02:08:44,400
Speaker 1: I I think that's a commendable effort and I'm excited

2100
02:08:44,440 --> 02:08:47,480
Speaker 1: to start listening. Um, thank you so much. Yes, can

2101
02:08:47,520 --> 02:08:50,720
Speaker 1: I mentioned one last things? And so I'm I'm sitting

2102
02:08:50,720 --> 02:08:53,120
Speaker 1: in Armenia and speaking to you from Armenia. So, UM,

2103
02:08:53,120 --> 02:08:57,120
Speaker 1: I would just encourage your listeners to find out about

2104
02:08:57,120 --> 02:08:59,840
Speaker 1: what's happening. We were recently attacked by I was pretty

2105
02:08:59,840 --> 02:09:02,240
Speaker 1: sure on and um we have some for n one

2106
02:09:02,320 --> 02:09:05,920
Speaker 1: score kilometers that are currently occupied by OSSIANNY soldiers. So

2107
02:09:05,960 --> 02:09:08,160
Speaker 1: I would encourage people to learn about the conflict and

2108
02:09:08,240 --> 02:09:11,480
Speaker 1: kind of pay attention to what's happening here. Yeah. Absolutely, UM,

2109
02:09:11,600 --> 02:09:15,040
Speaker 1: we continue to be big advocates for folks paying attention

2110
02:09:15,080 --> 02:09:20,720
Speaker 1: to that. Um. And uh, yeah, it's it's I don't know,

2111
02:09:21,120 --> 02:09:24,120
Speaker 1: you know, I had this brief period of like optimism

2112
02:09:24,240 --> 02:09:27,960
Speaker 1: when the White House started making statements and Pelosi visited that,

2113
02:09:28,040 --> 02:09:30,960
Speaker 1: like and we'll see maybe that I know there's like

2114
02:09:31,280 --> 02:09:34,640
Speaker 1: there's a vote coming up right now in Congress to

2115
02:09:34,960 --> 02:09:38,120
Speaker 1: stop selling weapons to these areas, which would be at

2116
02:09:38,200 --> 02:09:41,680
Speaker 1: least a start. Um. But I mean, you know, it's

2117
02:09:41,800 --> 02:09:44,720
Speaker 1: the what's I think is necessary is for our Menia

2118
02:09:44,760 --> 02:09:47,200
Speaker 1: to have access to the kind of weapons that have

2119
02:09:47,320 --> 02:09:50,920
Speaker 1: been so successful at stopping for an aggression and other countries.

2120
02:09:50,920 --> 02:09:56,480
Speaker 1: Shall we say, Yeah, well all right, Karina, thank you

2121
02:09:56,520 --> 02:09:58,920
Speaker 1: so much for your time. That's gonna be our show

2122
02:09:58,960 --> 02:10:02,320
Speaker 1: for the day. Have a good one. Everybody keep paying

2123
02:10:02,360 --> 02:10:20,160
Speaker 1: attention to stuff he trying to conceive of it, girl Boss, noised, No,

2124
02:10:20,360 --> 02:10:23,160
Speaker 1: I'm trying. There's trying to think of something that's about

2125
02:10:23,280 --> 02:10:25,720
Speaker 1: like Italian racism, um and how we should all be

2126
02:10:25,800 --> 02:10:30,760
Speaker 1: racist against Italians. Um because now it's important. Um oh hi,

2127
02:10:30,960 --> 02:10:34,200
Speaker 1: welcome to it could happen here the show where we're

2128
02:10:34,240 --> 02:10:40,400
Speaker 1: talking about anti Italian racism um and and also girl

2129
02:10:40,440 --> 02:10:43,880
Speaker 1: Bosses finally to two great tastes that go great together,

2130
02:10:46,640 --> 02:10:52,480
Speaker 1: like mixing peanut butter and piss. That's right, the piss

2131
02:10:52,560 --> 02:10:57,640
Speaker 1: being Italians. Girl Boss. I usually don't say things that

2132
02:10:57,640 --> 02:11:01,440
Speaker 1: are that obvious, but yes, uh with me today is

2133
02:11:02,000 --> 02:11:06,880
Speaker 1: Chris James and Robert I'm Garrison, and we're talking about

2134
02:11:07,120 --> 02:11:13,640
Speaker 1: girl boss fascism today. Um and uh's are we gonna

2135
02:11:13,640 --> 02:11:16,720
Speaker 1: say Georgia? Is that how we're going to do it?

2136
02:11:16,800 --> 02:11:19,320
Speaker 1: Is that how we're gonna say her name? Georgia? But

2137
02:11:19,440 --> 02:11:24,480
Speaker 1: I don't know George Georgia Milani. Georgia Milani, Georgia Milani

2138
02:11:24,920 --> 02:11:29,600
Speaker 1: at Le's new prime Minister, Gia Milan. That's what I

2139
02:11:29,680 --> 02:11:34,600
Speaker 1: was waiting for. You put some Italian on it. Yeah,

2140
02:11:34,840 --> 02:11:40,080
Speaker 1: we spice up that meat a ball. So since since

2141
02:11:41,080 --> 02:11:43,640
Speaker 1: she's been the head of the Brothers of Italy Party,

2142
02:11:43,640 --> 02:11:45,240
Speaker 1: which is funny because what I think of the Brothers

2143
02:11:45,240 --> 02:11:48,480
Speaker 1: of Italy, I just think of Mario and Luigi. Obviously

2144
02:11:48,520 --> 02:11:52,320
Speaker 1: that's there, That's what most people think. So but Marco

2145
02:11:52,400 --> 02:11:59,680
Speaker 1: and Luigi also fascists, so well they're monarchists. Yeah, there

2146
02:11:59,720 --> 02:12:05,840
Speaker 1: mona gusts. They specifically served princess. So so Bowser is

2147
02:12:06,120 --> 02:12:12,320
Speaker 1: Bowser is your standard issue left wing polit bureau chief

2148
02:12:12,360 --> 02:12:16,880
Speaker 1: type leader. Whereas what Mario and Luigi are doing, like

2149
02:12:17,040 --> 02:12:22,520
Speaker 1: Mussolini is installing a royal in power, is taking its

2150
02:12:22,600 --> 02:12:25,520
Speaker 1: Essentially every Mario game is recreating the March on Rome.

2151
02:12:25,840 --> 02:12:30,000
Speaker 1: I have like ten pages to get through stool come

2152
02:12:30,040 --> 02:12:34,000
Speaker 1: into it. So it's fun importants for the head of

2153
02:12:34,040 --> 02:12:38,400
Speaker 1: the Brothers of Italy Party, a party with directlydiage from

2154
02:12:38,400 --> 02:12:43,120
Speaker 1: the fascist Italian Social Movement, and Melani herself has been

2155
02:12:43,160 --> 02:12:47,600
Speaker 1: on camera praising figures like Mussolini. Uh and until very

2156
02:12:47,640 --> 02:12:50,880
Speaker 1: recently the Brothers of Italy Party. Besides being a very

2157
02:12:50,920 --> 02:12:53,520
Speaker 1: pro plumbing we're we're pretty on the we're pretty on

2158
02:12:53,560 --> 02:12:58,320
Speaker 1: the fridges of Italian volunteers. Just four years ago, the

2159
02:12:58,360 --> 02:13:01,040
Speaker 1: party one only four pres scent of the votes in

2160
02:13:01,080 --> 02:13:05,040
Speaker 1: the last election, and now it's become Italy's largest political party,

2161
02:13:05,320 --> 02:13:07,920
Speaker 1: claiming the greatest percentage of the vote in the last

2162
02:13:08,040 --> 02:13:14,080
Speaker 1: month's election. So today we're gonna talk about who Millennia is,

2163
02:13:14,160 --> 02:13:16,920
Speaker 1: what what she believes, what she kind of what what

2164
02:13:16,960 --> 02:13:21,680
Speaker 1: her rhetoric is, and then also the types of how

2165
02:13:22,160 --> 02:13:25,240
Speaker 1: the types of ways that media has been framing her

2166
02:13:25,240 --> 02:13:28,720
Speaker 1: relation to fascism, because there's definitely been this perception that

2167
02:13:28,880 --> 02:13:32,320
Speaker 1: like liberal feminists and mainstream media have been kind of

2168
02:13:32,360 --> 02:13:36,120
Speaker 1: soft on Melanie because she's the first woman prime Minister

2169
02:13:36,400 --> 02:13:39,560
Speaker 1: of Italy UM and they have they've kind of framed

2170
02:13:39,600 --> 02:13:42,840
Speaker 1: her ascension to power and like a girl boss go

2171
02:13:43,000 --> 02:13:46,720
Speaker 1: get it sort of way, and have been downplaying her

2172
02:13:46,960 --> 02:13:49,560
Speaker 1: more fascist views. So we're gonna talk about kind of

2173
02:13:49,600 --> 02:13:52,520
Speaker 1: where this perception comes from, the few ways where it's

2174
02:13:52,600 --> 02:13:55,000
Speaker 1: kind of correct, and some of the ways where it's

2175
02:13:55,080 --> 02:13:58,120
Speaker 1: I think a little off base. To start off with this,

2176
02:13:58,280 --> 02:14:00,120
Speaker 1: one of the kind of one of the biggest things

2177
02:14:00,120 --> 02:14:05,240
Speaker 1: that UH pushed this perception into the forefront was a

2178
02:14:05,280 --> 02:14:09,960
Speaker 1: tweet from Political Europe accompanying an article now that this

2179
02:14:09,960 --> 02:14:15,320
Speaker 1: this tweet. Sorry, thank you, thank you. And because I

2180
02:14:15,640 --> 02:14:19,360
Speaker 1: hate basing our research off of things that are just

2181
02:14:19,440 --> 02:14:22,360
Speaker 1: on Twitter, this tweet has been referenced a lot on

2182
02:14:22,520 --> 02:14:25,760
Speaker 1: like television, UM, on like News, and like News TV

2183
02:14:25,960 --> 02:14:27,880
Speaker 1: has been using this tweet a lot as well. This

2184
02:14:27,960 --> 02:14:30,720
Speaker 1: is this is kind of shaped the way that discussions

2185
02:14:30,760 --> 02:14:34,480
Speaker 1: happening on a national stage even off Twitter. Um. But

2186
02:14:34,680 --> 02:14:38,960
Speaker 1: the tweet. The tweet reads in a fifteen year old

2187
02:14:39,000 --> 02:14:42,360
Speaker 1: school girl went to join her local branch of the

2188
02:14:42,440 --> 02:14:46,680
Speaker 1: far right Youth Front in Rome. The all male group

2189
02:14:46,680 --> 02:14:51,080
Speaker 1: of radicals met her with amusement. Thirty years later, Georgia

2190
02:14:51,200 --> 02:14:55,800
Speaker 1: Milani is now on course to become Italy's first female

2191
02:14:55,920 --> 02:14:59,960
Speaker 1: prime minister. So the way that frameorworks is like, yeah,

2192
02:15:00,080 --> 02:15:03,320
Speaker 1: uh this this little girl wanted to join her Nazi

2193
02:15:03,400 --> 02:15:08,240
Speaker 1: club and it was and now she's finally private minister,

2194
02:15:08,400 --> 02:15:11,760
Speaker 1: the first one. And so yes, obviously this is very

2195
02:15:11,800 --> 02:15:15,880
Speaker 1: cringe e um, not not great framing a lot of

2196
02:15:15,880 --> 02:15:23,480
Speaker 1: good girl Hitler jokes. Even presidents listen, I'm no really,

2197
02:15:23,600 --> 02:15:29,120
Speaker 1: I'm happy. Wow a girl president. How progressive and so

2198
02:15:29,360 --> 02:15:34,920
Speaker 1: takes venture brothers. Uh, no uncritical support, it's just just

2199
02:15:35,120 --> 02:15:40,240
Speaker 1: support to venture brothers. Um, so takes like like that,

2200
02:15:40,400 --> 02:15:42,960
Speaker 1: like what like what we just heard a dean of

2201
02:15:43,200 --> 02:15:47,560
Speaker 1: Ventures say kind of kind of spawned a big slew

2202
02:15:47,960 --> 02:15:51,400
Speaker 1: of of comments. You know, I'm just gonna read, read,

2203
02:15:51,480 --> 02:15:53,200
Speaker 1: read some of the stuff that the people have been

2204
02:15:53,240 --> 02:15:56,400
Speaker 1: saying in response to stuff like that Political Europe a

2205
02:15:56,520 --> 02:16:01,200
Speaker 1: piece quote begging liberals to stop praising girl Bossolini for

2206
02:16:01,280 --> 02:16:04,280
Speaker 1: being brave enough to shatter the glass ceiling in the

2207
02:16:04,320 --> 02:16:08,120
Speaker 1: neo fascist parties she's joined, and like why is media

2208
02:16:08,240 --> 02:16:11,240
Speaker 1: treating this as a freaking girl boss story? The girl

2209
02:16:11,320 --> 02:16:16,040
Speaker 1: bossification of Georgia Miladi has been interesting to watch. Liberals

2210
02:16:16,080 --> 02:16:19,360
Speaker 1: will literally stand anybody. So there's a lot of a

2211
02:16:19,400 --> 02:16:21,240
Speaker 1: lot of takes like that have been have been have

2212
02:16:21,320 --> 02:16:27,280
Speaker 1: been going around. There's there's been extremely viral viral tweets

2213
02:16:27,280 --> 02:16:31,080
Speaker 1: getting hundreds of thousands of of likes, thousands of thousands

2214
02:16:31,080 --> 02:16:33,800
Speaker 1: three tweets and shares, stuff getting referenced on national TV

2215
02:16:35,240 --> 02:16:39,200
Speaker 1: all kind of about this, you know, people complaining the

2216
02:16:39,320 --> 02:16:41,760
Speaker 1: takes from Political Europe and and other other kind of

2217
02:16:41,840 --> 02:16:46,400
Speaker 1: various soft headlines emphasizing the girl boss nature being like

2218
02:16:46,440 --> 02:16:49,320
Speaker 1: the sweet little girl defies the odds and grows up

2219
02:16:49,320 --> 02:16:53,360
Speaker 1: to be the first female Mussolini. So like, some of

2220
02:16:53,360 --> 02:16:56,119
Speaker 1: these jokes are pretty funny. I think I think they're

2221
02:16:56,160 --> 02:17:00,320
Speaker 1: they're funny. Um, they're fine. There is oh, probably the

2222
02:17:00,400 --> 02:17:03,240
Speaker 1: worst one of these takes that I found that still

2223
02:17:03,280 --> 02:17:06,400
Speaker 1: got hundreds of retweets and thousands of likes was quote

2224
02:17:06,800 --> 02:17:10,680
Speaker 1: the American right and the American Left. The aesthetics are different,

2225
02:17:10,800 --> 02:17:14,119
Speaker 1: but the effect is the same. Support for the rising

2226
02:17:14,200 --> 02:17:18,360
Speaker 1: tide of fascism. Communists are the only people now as

2227
02:17:18,360 --> 02:17:27,080
Speaker 1: in the past who truly opposed fascion far for fox sake.

2228
02:17:29,760 --> 02:17:34,879
Speaker 1: True for those of you following along time, No, yeah,

2229
02:17:35,040 --> 02:17:37,520
Speaker 1: there was a terrible Megan McCain tweet, which is very

2230
02:17:37,560 --> 02:17:40,480
Speaker 1: funny because people definitely wish we'll talk about the Megan

2231
02:17:40,520 --> 02:17:45,920
Speaker 1: McCain can't wait I have, Yes, well, we'll talk about

2232
02:17:45,920 --> 02:17:48,800
Speaker 1: our good friend Megan McCain. But yeah, so you know

2233
02:17:48,879 --> 02:17:52,520
Speaker 1: Italy's Italy elected their first female Mussolini. Um in a

2234
02:17:52,640 --> 02:17:55,920
Speaker 1: remarkable victory for both girl power and diversity in politics

2235
02:17:56,000 --> 02:18:01,600
Speaker 1: and people. People. Uh, people had some good japes. So

2236
02:18:01,959 --> 02:18:05,000
Speaker 1: the other the other kind of big thing that caused

2237
02:18:05,040 --> 02:18:11,760
Speaker 1: this perception that that like that like the liberals will

2238
02:18:11,800 --> 02:18:14,280
Speaker 1: literally stand anybody. The other big thing I kind of

2239
02:18:14,280 --> 02:18:18,920
Speaker 1: caused that was, uh, some viral quotes from Hillary Clinton,

2240
02:18:19,720 --> 02:18:25,320
Speaker 1: uh talking talking about the the role of of women

2241
02:18:25,440 --> 02:18:32,199
Speaker 1: in politics and referencing Milani. So some remarks from Hillary

2242
02:18:32,240 --> 02:18:37,080
Speaker 1: Clinton published in Italy last September. I think it was that.

2243
02:18:37,240 --> 02:18:41,560
Speaker 1: I think it was that, like the Venice of Film Festival. Actually, um, so,

2244
02:18:42,000 --> 02:18:44,240
Speaker 1: some some quotes from an interview that she gave at

2245
02:18:44,240 --> 02:18:48,360
Speaker 1: the Venice Film Festival went viral. Um mostly because tweets

2246
02:18:48,400 --> 02:18:52,840
Speaker 1: included to two small clips of of these quotes when

2247
02:18:52,879 --> 02:18:58,560
Speaker 1: she was talking about both women in politics and uh, Georgie, George, Gia,

2248
02:18:58,760 --> 02:19:04,039
Speaker 1: Georgia doing great, buddy. So multiple tweets circulated, mostly with

2249
02:19:04,040 --> 02:19:07,480
Speaker 1: two short quotes from Clinton getting the majority of attention, saying, quote,

2250
02:19:07,720 --> 02:19:10,160
Speaker 1: the election of the first woman prime minister in a

2251
02:19:10,240 --> 02:19:13,520
Speaker 1: country always represents a break with the past and is

2252
02:19:13,560 --> 02:19:17,080
Speaker 1: certainly a good thing unquote. And a second quote being

2253
02:19:17,560 --> 02:19:20,600
Speaker 1: every time a woman is elected to head of state

2254
02:19:20,720 --> 02:19:25,039
Speaker 1: or government, that is a step forward unquote. Um. Obviously,

2255
02:19:25,200 --> 02:19:28,960
Speaker 1: those takes in an of themselves not very good. I

2256
02:19:29,200 --> 02:19:32,680
Speaker 1: don't think there's a good opinions. UM. Shocking, shocking that

2257
02:19:32,720 --> 02:19:36,440
Speaker 1: we are going to criticize the statement from Hillary Clinton.

2258
02:19:36,760 --> 02:19:40,640
Speaker 1: This is this is rare for us. Um, it's you know,

2259
02:19:40,760 --> 02:19:44,199
Speaker 1: it's it's I'm I'm surprised as well. But um, these

2260
02:19:44,280 --> 02:19:47,279
Speaker 1: kind of are slightly cherry picked from a larger section

2261
02:19:47,920 --> 02:19:51,400
Speaker 1: of this interview discussing women in government and how the

2262
02:19:51,480 --> 02:19:55,000
Speaker 1: far right is starting to use tokenized women to uphold

2263
02:19:55,080 --> 02:19:59,680
Speaker 1: patriarchy and conservatism. So the first quote is taken from

2264
02:19:59,760 --> 02:20:03,440
Speaker 1: this from a translation of an interview that that that

2265
02:20:03,720 --> 02:20:07,959
Speaker 1: Clinton did at the Venice Film Festival in September, prior

2266
02:20:08,080 --> 02:20:13,400
Speaker 1: to Melanni's apparent victory in the Italian elections on September.

2267
02:20:14,600 --> 02:20:18,039
Speaker 1: So she do it in Italian Italian, you know, but

2268
02:20:18,120 --> 02:20:21,560
Speaker 1: it was only published in Italian, so we're translating from

2269
02:20:21,600 --> 02:20:28,360
Speaker 1: Italian back into English. Double translation. But the so in

2270
02:20:28,760 --> 02:20:30,560
Speaker 1: in a section of this interview talking about the increase

2271
02:20:30,560 --> 02:20:34,280
Speaker 1: of women in governmental leadership Roles. A translation from her

2272
02:20:34,400 --> 02:20:37,680
Speaker 1: remarks in the larger section of this interview reads, quote,

2273
02:20:37,840 --> 02:20:39,960
Speaker 1: the election of the first woman prime minister in a

2274
02:20:40,000 --> 02:20:42,240
Speaker 1: country always represents a break with the past and is

2275
02:20:42,280 --> 02:20:45,120
Speaker 1: certainly a good thing. But then, as with any leader,

2276
02:20:45,240 --> 02:20:48,160
Speaker 1: woman or man, she must be judged by what she does.

2277
02:20:48,760 --> 02:20:53,240
Speaker 1: I never agreed with Margaret Thatcher, but I admired her determination. Clearly,

2278
02:20:53,560 --> 02:20:57,840
Speaker 1: then the ideas are voted for. I admired her determinating

2279
02:20:58,760 --> 02:21:01,240
Speaker 1: stamp on the neck of the sucking class. Funck Off

2280
02:21:01,360 --> 02:21:05,320
Speaker 1: also doesn't Does she really oppose Margaret Thatcher's policies? Yeah,

2281
02:21:05,800 --> 02:21:07,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if I believe that

2282
02:21:07,879 --> 02:21:10,400
Speaker 1: one that lady is dead in the world is better

2283
02:21:10,480 --> 02:21:14,720
Speaker 1: for it. Uh you Margaret Thatcher had girl power? Yes,

2284
02:21:15,080 --> 02:21:18,040
Speaker 1: of course. Do you think she effectively uti let girl

2285
02:21:18,080 --> 02:21:21,320
Speaker 1: power by funneling money to illegal paramilitary death squads in

2286
02:21:21,360 --> 02:21:25,400
Speaker 1: Northern Ireland? I don't know about that. There's this thing

2287
02:21:25,600 --> 02:21:28,280
Speaker 1: that you get with like people talking about all of

2288
02:21:28,320 --> 02:21:31,920
Speaker 1: these schools where and it's specifically like a centrist thing

2289
02:21:31,920 --> 02:21:34,560
Speaker 1: where it's like, well, certain things are just admirable traits,

2290
02:21:34,600 --> 02:21:36,600
Speaker 1: no matter about who has them, and you can admire

2291
02:21:36,680 --> 02:21:39,960
Speaker 1: that trait. And it's like, no, it's it's not like.

2292
02:21:40,320 --> 02:21:42,560
Speaker 1: There were a lot of men in the s s who,

2293
02:21:42,879 --> 02:21:45,280
Speaker 1: you know, we're willing to do things that you would

2294
02:21:45,280 --> 02:21:47,480
Speaker 1: call brave, but it doesn't mean you have to consider

2295
02:21:47,520 --> 02:21:50,760
Speaker 1: them admirable. I think you don't have to have respect

2296
02:21:50,879 --> 02:21:53,839
Speaker 1: for the you don't have to hand it to the Nazis.

2297
02:21:53,879 --> 02:21:58,519
Speaker 1: Exactly like just suck certain people. Yeah, yeah, the contribution

2298
02:21:58,600 --> 02:22:01,520
Speaker 1: to the world is bad. You can stop stop that,

2299
02:22:02,640 --> 02:22:05,920
Speaker 1: argre Thatcher being a good example. I have kind of

2300
02:22:05,959 --> 02:22:08,720
Speaker 1: the same thoughts on the inclusion of toadet inside the

2301
02:22:08,720 --> 02:22:12,120
Speaker 1: new Mario Kart games. It's just really it's it's just

2302
02:22:12,280 --> 02:22:14,920
Speaker 1: you're signifying it, but it's not actually a step forward

2303
02:22:14,959 --> 02:22:18,080
Speaker 1: for the toad race. It's um so. In the next

2304
02:22:18,120 --> 02:22:22,280
Speaker 1: section of the interview, Clinton also Harrison's Garrison's come out

2305
02:22:22,280 --> 02:22:26,720
Speaker 1: against work Mario cut the next section, Clinton also acknowledges

2306
02:22:26,840 --> 02:22:31,920
Speaker 1: conservative women politicians role in upholding patriarchal government, saying, quote,

2307
02:22:32,080 --> 02:22:35,080
Speaker 1: women on the right are protected by patriarchy because they

2308
02:22:35,080 --> 02:22:37,600
Speaker 1: are often the first to support the fundamental pillars of

2309
02:22:37,680 --> 02:22:40,959
Speaker 1: male power and privilege. Today in America, the right wing

2310
02:22:41,040 --> 02:22:45,360
Speaker 1: leaders are very much against abortion. Um So, she she

2311
02:22:45,440 --> 02:22:47,879
Speaker 1: did like it was part of this section talking about

2312
02:22:47,879 --> 02:22:50,080
Speaker 1: how women who are on the right and are running

2313
02:22:50,120 --> 02:22:53,879
Speaker 1: is concerned of politicians actually support all of the all

2314
02:22:54,000 --> 02:22:56,760
Speaker 1: the things that keep patriarchy alive and blah blah blah,

2315
02:22:56,760 --> 02:22:59,160
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah. It's well, it's it's it's true centrism, right,

2316
02:22:59,160 --> 02:23:01,080
Speaker 1: It's half of a good taken half of a terrible

2317
02:23:01,160 --> 02:23:08,160
Speaker 1: exactly exact exactly so so yeah, so our snippets of

2318
02:23:08,200 --> 02:23:12,560
Speaker 1: her comments embarrassing rewomen being a break from the past,

2319
02:23:12,600 --> 02:23:15,160
Speaker 1: always being a good thing. Yes, most certainly. M Are

2320
02:23:15,200 --> 02:23:17,320
Speaker 1: they taken out of context enough to change the scope

2321
02:23:17,320 --> 02:23:20,760
Speaker 1: of what's being said? I suppose that's the subjective. Um,

2322
02:23:20,800 --> 02:23:23,080
Speaker 1: But I just thought that's interesting that there was very

2323
02:23:23,120 --> 02:23:26,039
Speaker 1: select few quotes that were getting a whole bunch of traction,

2324
02:23:26,360 --> 02:23:30,800
Speaker 1: and her larger statements are actually slightly more interesting article

2325
02:23:31,360 --> 02:23:33,640
Speaker 1: don't don't do the Alex Jones ship of getting mad

2326
02:23:33,680 --> 02:23:37,760
Speaker 1: at a headline? Yeah six seconds, Like, come on, people,

2327
02:23:38,080 --> 02:23:41,360
Speaker 1: you have to be better than this. And I think, still,

2328
02:23:42,840 --> 02:23:45,440
Speaker 1: you know, I see the same thing whenever I'm playing

2329
02:23:45,440 --> 02:23:50,240
Speaker 1: Mario Sunshine and there's the graffiti. Um, you can you

2330
02:23:50,240 --> 02:23:52,640
Speaker 1: can get mad at just saying it's the graffiti all

2331
02:23:52,680 --> 02:23:55,520
Speaker 1: over Definitely, no pasa, you can get mad about that.

2332
02:23:55,520 --> 02:23:58,680
Speaker 1: But once you actually start learning how Bowser Jr. Was

2333
02:23:58,720 --> 02:24:01,680
Speaker 1: treated as a kid, it's it's there's actually more. There's

2334
02:24:01,720 --> 02:24:04,200
Speaker 1: more that you actually can understand about what's going on

2335
02:24:04,200 --> 02:24:09,119
Speaker 1: and what leads to that behavior from Bowser Jr. Very identifiable.

2336
02:24:09,200 --> 02:24:12,959
Speaker 1: Everybody understands those references. Garrison, good work. Yeah. I just

2337
02:24:13,000 --> 02:24:14,879
Speaker 1: want to say that there is only one square in

2338
02:24:14,920 --> 02:24:18,560
Speaker 1: Italy that matters, and that is Pie Saliretto and you

2339
02:24:18,600 --> 02:24:21,400
Speaker 1: can you can google it. I just I love the

2340
02:24:21,760 --> 02:24:26,120
Speaker 1: juxtaposition of Garrison struggling over every single word that's in

2341
02:24:26,160 --> 02:24:29,160
Speaker 1: the in the neighborhood of Italy, and then James just

2342
02:24:29,280 --> 02:24:33,720
Speaker 1: perfectly saying, some fucking Italian ship. My Italian is bad,

2343
02:24:33,760 --> 02:24:37,440
Speaker 1: My Italian comes exclusively. Your Italian is much better than

2344
02:24:37,480 --> 02:24:41,920
Speaker 1: anyone else. Here's maybe I swear, I swear other managed

2345
02:24:41,959 --> 02:24:44,560
Speaker 1: bandix is. I know a couple of curse words from

2346
02:24:44,560 --> 02:24:46,920
Speaker 1: watching my uncle's playpool when I was a kid. But

2347
02:24:46,959 --> 02:24:49,880
Speaker 1: that's about all I've got. I rely on that hand gesture,

2348
02:24:49,959 --> 02:24:52,480
Speaker 1: which works very well, and hand gestures are eight percent

2349
02:24:52,520 --> 02:24:55,880
Speaker 1: of Italian. Yeah, yes, it's true. Okay, So now, having

2350
02:24:55,879 --> 02:24:58,840
Speaker 1: now exhausted every conceivable Italian joke, we could proceed with

2351
02:24:58,840 --> 02:25:01,800
Speaker 1: the scrip. Oh I don't we keep receiving We can

2352
02:25:01,840 --> 02:25:03,840
Speaker 1: actually proceed with an ad break. Do you do you

2353
02:25:04,080 --> 02:25:08,000
Speaker 1: know what else is in support of anti Italian racism?

2354
02:25:08,000 --> 02:25:09,960
Speaker 1: Who won't kill miss Leny hang him upside down in

2355
02:25:10,000 --> 02:25:13,800
Speaker 1: the square? I mean probably the current Prime Minister of Italy. Yeah,

2356
02:25:13,840 --> 02:25:19,800
Speaker 1: that's true. Also probably these advertisers, okay, and we are back.

2357
02:25:20,080 --> 02:25:23,320
Speaker 1: So there was there has been this kind of perception

2358
02:25:23,440 --> 02:25:25,320
Speaker 1: that the media kind of by and large dropped the

2359
02:25:25,360 --> 02:25:29,560
Speaker 1: ball on this one, and this sentiments was pretty widespread

2360
02:25:29,680 --> 02:25:32,520
Speaker 1: among leftists that the kind of there was a lot

2361
02:25:32,520 --> 02:25:36,360
Speaker 1: of emphasis on the the breaking the fascist glass of

2362
02:25:36,400 --> 02:25:40,480
Speaker 1: ceiling and less on the fascist part. There was even

2363
02:25:40,640 --> 02:25:44,640
Speaker 1: people like the MSNBC hosts Meddi Hassan who ran a

2364
02:25:44,640 --> 02:25:49,160
Speaker 1: whole segment on his show about kind of mainstream liberal media,

2365
02:25:49,400 --> 02:25:54,160
Speaker 1: let's downplaying the fascistic elements of milani uh in headlines

2366
02:25:54,480 --> 02:25:58,400
Speaker 1: in favor of the girl power angle. What's been so

2367
02:25:58,520 --> 02:26:00,920
Speaker 1: depressing it is to see so much of the quote

2368
02:26:00,959 --> 02:26:04,800
Speaker 1: unquote liberal media, the mainstream media, the m s M

2369
02:26:05,320 --> 02:26:07,680
Speaker 1: giving a pass to Maloney or playing down her and

2370
02:26:07,720 --> 02:26:10,680
Speaker 1: her party's fascist roots, focusing more on the fact that

2371
02:26:10,720 --> 02:26:15,000
Speaker 1: she's female and less on the fact that she's you know, fascistic.

2372
02:26:15,440 --> 02:26:19,280
Speaker 1: That has been deeply, deeply depressing to see. There was

2373
02:26:19,400 --> 02:26:25,200
Speaker 1: the Washington Post headline, Georgia Maloney could become Italy's first

2374
02:26:25,640 --> 02:26:31,080
Speaker 1: female prime minister. Here's what to know. Now here's what

2375
02:26:31,120 --> 02:26:34,680
Speaker 1: you wouldn't know from that headline. You wouldn't know that

2376
02:26:35,440 --> 02:26:39,520
Speaker 1: she has ties to fascism. But hey, she's female. There

2377
02:26:39,600 --> 02:26:43,080
Speaker 1: was the headline in the Financial Times. We can pull

2378
02:26:43,120 --> 02:26:47,039
Speaker 1: that up as well. Likely victory for Italian right portends risks,

2379
02:26:47,320 --> 02:26:51,120
Speaker 1: but no lurch into extremism. Don't worry, no hurts to extremism,

2380
02:26:51,120 --> 02:26:55,240
Speaker 1: even though they just elected card carrying extremists. But still

2381
02:26:55,400 --> 02:26:58,680
Speaker 1: hers is a heartwarming tale, isn't it. I kid you not.

2382
02:26:58,800 --> 02:27:01,200
Speaker 1: This was the tweet from Police to CO Europe. That's

2383
02:27:01,240 --> 02:27:05,240
Speaker 1: pull up the tweet from Politico Europe. In July, fifteen

2384
02:27:05,280 --> 02:27:07,760
Speaker 1: year old school girl rang the doorbell at a local

2385
02:27:07,800 --> 02:27:10,240
Speaker 1: branch of the Youth Front, a far right movement in Rome,

2386
02:27:10,400 --> 02:27:13,840
Speaker 1: and asked to be let in this weekend, that same

2387
02:27:13,920 --> 02:27:19,600
Speaker 1: school girl could become Italy's next prime minister. Wow, forget

2388
02:27:19,640 --> 02:27:24,720
Speaker 1: the fascism, forget the fascism, focus on the inspiration there.

2389
02:27:25,360 --> 02:27:26,959
Speaker 1: Then there was this op ed in the New York Times,

2390
02:27:27,040 --> 02:27:31,520
Speaker 1: Georgia Maloney is extreme, but she's no tyrant. Well that's

2391
02:27:31,560 --> 02:27:34,080
Speaker 1: all right, then, at least she's not a tyrant. There

2392
02:27:34,120 --> 02:27:36,400
Speaker 1: was this OpEd in the Atlantic which argued that the

2393
02:27:36,440 --> 02:27:39,160
Speaker 1: most immediate concern about Italy's new government. Is not any

2394
02:27:39,200 --> 02:27:42,800
Speaker 1: threat to the country's democratic institution, still less a return

2395
02:27:42,840 --> 02:27:46,440
Speaker 1: to fascism. Did you notice a trend? Yet it's not

2396
02:27:46,520 --> 02:27:49,760
Speaker 1: as bad as you think. This isn't really fascism. So

2397
02:27:50,360 --> 02:27:54,039
Speaker 1: we'll we'll talk a bit more about media coverage of

2398
02:27:54,080 --> 02:27:56,520
Speaker 1: Milani's election in a bit and how I think some

2399
02:27:56,560 --> 02:28:00,480
Speaker 1: people are kind of desperate to see the stupid Democrat

2400
02:28:00,520 --> 02:28:03,640
Speaker 1: Libs shill for fascism trope, especially with the whole girl

2401
02:28:03,680 --> 02:28:05,680
Speaker 1: boss thing that they actually kind of miss how the

2402
02:28:05,680 --> 02:28:09,160
Speaker 1: framing of Milanni's fascist ties has been perceived on a

2403
02:28:09,240 --> 02:28:11,440
Speaker 1: broad scale. But first I want to get into who

2404
02:28:11,480 --> 02:28:13,560
Speaker 1: she actually is, what her views are, and what her

2405
02:28:13,560 --> 02:28:16,800
Speaker 1: election means. So it least a home. Italy is home

2406
02:28:16,879 --> 02:28:30,760
Speaker 1: to sixty million people, well with Robin, and it's continental

2407
02:28:30,840 --> 02:28:34,560
Speaker 1: Europe's third largest economy. When it comes to the actual election,

2408
02:28:34,959 --> 02:28:38,680
Speaker 1: the right wing coalition that Melani led one around of

2409
02:28:38,720 --> 02:28:42,760
Speaker 1: the vote, with Melani's Brothers of Italy Party getting around

2410
02:28:44,000 --> 02:28:47,160
Speaker 1: for the Senate race. So in all around three out

2411
02:28:47,160 --> 02:28:51,240
Speaker 1: of four voters did not vote for Melani and one

2412
02:28:51,280 --> 02:28:53,840
Speaker 1: in three didn't even vote at all, No surprise there,

2413
02:28:54,320 --> 02:28:57,000
Speaker 1: But overall that means like only one in six Italian

2414
02:28:57,040 --> 02:29:00,879
Speaker 1: adults voted for the Brothers of Italy party and that

2415
02:29:00,879 --> 02:29:03,200
Speaker 1: that does, that does make them the biggest party in

2416
02:29:03,200 --> 02:29:07,760
Speaker 1: the new parliament, but it's long term legitimacy is still

2417
02:29:07,800 --> 02:29:12,080
Speaker 1: kind of in question because she was leading a larger

2418
02:29:12,360 --> 02:29:17,000
Speaker 1: right wing block but the but the actual party that

2419
02:29:17,400 --> 02:29:23,480
Speaker 1: she's in and leads got the boat, so it's it's right,

2420
02:29:23,480 --> 02:29:26,520
Speaker 1: it's I think that's an important perspective on like how

2421
02:29:26,560 --> 02:29:29,480
Speaker 1: long she'll actually stay in power. Italian politics are kind

2422
02:29:29,520 --> 02:29:32,600
Speaker 1: of known for their kind of residing government not lasting

2423
02:29:32,680 --> 02:29:36,240
Speaker 1: very long. There's there's usually a pretty high like turnover rate,

2424
02:29:36,680 --> 02:29:41,800
Speaker 1: so we'll see. Um, yeah, they it's an interesting composition

2425
02:29:41,920 --> 02:29:46,760
Speaker 1: right of like like moderate moderate ish right wing people

2426
02:29:47,000 --> 02:29:51,520
Speaker 1: and then like some more hardcore like no that it's

2427
02:29:51,520 --> 02:29:54,000
Speaker 1: to people who used to be the League of the North,

2428
02:29:54,640 --> 02:29:56,880
Speaker 1: I think of the second largest party, so it's not

2429
02:29:56,959 --> 02:30:00,960
Speaker 1: like a homogeneous block that she's in. Job would be

2430
02:30:01,040 --> 02:30:04,080
Speaker 1: kind of interesting to see how they hold together. Yeah,

2431
02:30:04,160 --> 02:30:06,959
Speaker 1: and I think Melani can be an example of what

2432
02:30:07,080 --> 02:30:13,400
Speaker 1: political scientists called gender washing, when when female politicians adopt

2433
02:30:13,879 --> 02:30:17,279
Speaker 1: a non threatening image to blunt the force of their extremism.

2434
02:30:17,320 --> 02:30:19,160
Speaker 1: I think you can see this as well with Daisy

2435
02:30:19,200 --> 02:30:23,119
Speaker 1: inside Mario Kart for the for the Wei. Extremely brutal

2436
02:30:23,360 --> 02:30:27,320
Speaker 1: character play style, very brawley, but you know she acts

2437
02:30:27,400 --> 02:30:31,520
Speaker 1: very nice and that. Yeah, she's just like just powers

2438
02:30:31,560 --> 02:30:36,440
Speaker 1: through other other carts on the track. Um and it's it's.

2439
02:30:36,480 --> 02:30:39,400
Speaker 1: It leads to this slightly warped perception of what Daisy

2440
02:30:39,440 --> 02:30:43,960
Speaker 1: actually does. Um So and Melanie's signature look involves flowing

2441
02:30:44,000 --> 02:30:47,560
Speaker 1: outfits and pastel shades, kind of like Princess Peach Um

2442
02:30:47,560 --> 02:30:50,280
Speaker 1: and two uninformed Foreigners. Her a sthetic could look like

2443
02:30:50,360 --> 02:30:53,600
Speaker 1: female empowerment. She poses as like a defender of women,

2444
02:30:54,280 --> 02:30:56,880
Speaker 1: even though her party has rolled back women's rights, just

2445
02:30:56,959 --> 02:31:00,440
Speaker 1: like in uh the Two. As in six Princess Peach Game,

2446
02:31:00,720 --> 02:31:03,880
Speaker 1: she was a did brutal suppression of protests around the

2447
02:31:03,920 --> 02:31:10,199
Speaker 1: Mushroom Kingdom. So David Broader, author of Mussolini's Grandchildren, Fascism

2448
02:31:10,200 --> 02:31:13,920
Speaker 1: and Contemporary Italy, wrote in Political Europe Get funny. It's

2449
02:31:14,560 --> 02:31:17,640
Speaker 1: very different take from Political Europe and this one uh quote.

2450
02:31:17,760 --> 02:31:21,360
Speaker 1: Milani owes much more to the moderate forces in what

2451
02:31:21,440 --> 02:31:26,360
Speaker 1: Italians call the center right Alliance. They've allowed her the

2452
02:31:26,360 --> 02:31:30,359
Speaker 1: opportunity to present herself as part of the main stream,

2453
02:31:30,400 --> 02:31:33,760
Speaker 1: not just because she's been softening her policies, at least

2454
02:31:33,760 --> 02:31:37,680
Speaker 1: in presentation, but also because the center right politicians jumping

2455
02:31:37,680 --> 02:31:39,840
Speaker 1: on her bandwag and has given her of an ear

2456
02:31:39,920 --> 02:31:43,640
Speaker 1: of respectability and credibility. Um. You can see this in

2457
02:31:43,840 --> 02:31:48,520
Speaker 1: Super Passionate Most Brawl, when Warrio shows up a biker outfit,

2458
02:31:48,680 --> 02:31:51,880
Speaker 1: not wearing the regular Italian uniform and they just let

2459
02:31:52,040 --> 02:31:55,400
Speaker 1: him play like Mario Luigi are wearing their proper outfit

2460
02:31:55,720 --> 02:31:57,840
Speaker 1: and Warrior just like showed up in like like a

2461
02:31:57,920 --> 02:32:01,000
Speaker 1: leather jacket and like ripped shorts. That's not okay, but

2462
02:32:01,160 --> 02:32:05,119
Speaker 1: it gave him the veneer of respectability because others allowed

2463
02:32:05,120 --> 02:32:06,920
Speaker 1: it to take place. Kind of the kind of the

2464
02:32:06,920 --> 02:32:10,400
Speaker 1: same thing here with Milani. At the same time, attempts

2465
02:32:10,840 --> 02:32:13,480
Speaker 1: by the main like center left rivals to make the

2466
02:32:13,520 --> 02:32:17,440
Speaker 1: election about this kind of ghost of fascism uh spreading

2467
02:32:17,440 --> 02:32:20,800
Speaker 1: again through Milani, have proved unsuccessful. Voters by enlarged and

2468
02:32:20,920 --> 02:32:23,920
Speaker 1: did not buy the narrative kind of that that the

2469
02:32:23,959 --> 02:32:26,640
Speaker 1: left was trying to push that Melani was this reincarnation

2470
02:32:26,640 --> 02:32:29,640
Speaker 1: of fascism. They just it just that that they were not.

2471
02:32:30,080 --> 02:32:32,720
Speaker 1: They were not convinced enough to affect the election results

2472
02:32:32,760 --> 02:32:36,119
Speaker 1: in an in any meaningful way. Um same way, Nintendo

2473
02:32:36,160 --> 02:32:38,840
Speaker 1: is not convinced that putting Walluiji in the new Smash Bros.

2474
02:32:38,879 --> 02:32:42,520
Speaker 1: Will actually lead to more people buying the game. Italian

2475
02:32:42,640 --> 02:32:46,720
Speaker 1: essayist Roberto Slavinio wrote, quote, the far right can succeed

2476
02:32:46,760 --> 02:32:50,120
Speaker 1: in Italy because the left has failed, exactly as in

2477
02:32:50,240 --> 02:32:54,000
Speaker 1: much of the world, to offer credible visions or strategies.

2478
02:32:54,280 --> 02:32:57,280
Speaker 1: The left asks people to vote against the right, but

2479
02:32:57,400 --> 02:33:00,080
Speaker 1: it lacks the political vision or an economic alternative of

2480
02:33:00,520 --> 02:33:02,240
Speaker 1: And I think these are all the kind of factors

2481
02:33:02,280 --> 02:33:05,879
Speaker 1: that actually led Milani to win this election. Should we

2482
02:33:05,920 --> 02:33:08,320
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the sort of democratic party

2483
02:33:08,360 --> 02:33:12,480
Speaker 1: like five Star Alliance things that happen. Sure, if you

2484
02:33:12,480 --> 02:33:15,360
Speaker 1: can want to do like TLDR on that that would

2485
02:33:15,400 --> 02:33:19,280
Speaker 1: be great. So alright, long ago, in a galaxy far

2486
02:33:19,320 --> 02:33:21,600
Speaker 1: far away, Italy had a very very large and powerful

2487
02:33:21,680 --> 02:33:24,680
Speaker 1: left um and then when the Soviet Union fell so

2488
02:33:24,720 --> 02:33:27,200
Speaker 1: that they had the Communist Party. The Comunist Party was

2489
02:33:27,760 --> 02:33:29,760
Speaker 1: like one of the most powerful comunist parties in the world.

2490
02:33:29,840 --> 02:33:33,000
Speaker 1: That wasn't like a sort of like dicutorial ruling party.

2491
02:33:33,040 --> 02:33:36,000
Speaker 1: But when the Soviet like when the USSR felt it

2492
02:33:36,080 --> 02:33:39,800
Speaker 1: like voted dissolve itself basically became the Democratic Party and

2493
02:33:39,920 --> 02:33:42,280
Speaker 1: all of their sort of militants, like much of the

2494
02:33:42,320 --> 02:33:45,680
Speaker 1: militants basically turned into Libs and you know, I mean

2495
02:33:45,680 --> 02:33:48,160
Speaker 1: and the Italian left like how together for kind of

2496
02:33:48,200 --> 02:33:50,440
Speaker 1: a long time after that because they had you know,

2497
02:33:50,600 --> 02:33:52,840
Speaker 1: there's there's a very long tradition to sort of an

2498
02:33:52,840 --> 02:33:56,879
Speaker 1: extra parliamentary left and like tartically an anarchist left in Italy,

2499
02:33:57,080 --> 02:34:00,920
Speaker 1: but like the modern I don't know, it's kind of

2500
02:34:00,920 --> 02:34:03,320
Speaker 1: a ship show, like in terms of actual party politics,

2501
02:34:03,400 --> 02:34:05,360
Speaker 1: Like there's a there was this thing called the Five

2502
02:34:05,400 --> 02:34:10,440
Speaker 1: Stars Movements, which was like kind of like basically Astro

2503
02:34:10,560 --> 02:34:14,119
Speaker 1: Turf by Abilionaire. It was just like very weird, very

2504
02:34:14,160 --> 02:34:18,760
Speaker 1: like early two thousand tens party that was like doing

2505
02:34:18,840 --> 02:34:20,640
Speaker 1: the whole sort of like we're going to do direct

2506
02:34:20,640 --> 02:34:23,400
Speaker 1: democracy by like online polls things. It has just like

2507
02:34:23,879 --> 02:34:27,800
Speaker 1: really weird mishmasch like the main social Democratic for us. Yeah,

2508
02:34:27,840 --> 02:34:30,120
Speaker 1: well it's also sort of but like they're very weird,

2509
02:34:30,240 --> 02:34:32,240
Speaker 1: like like I don't know, you'll get things from them

2510
02:34:32,280 --> 02:34:34,280
Speaker 1: like okay, we want like like they're they're not a

2511
02:34:34,320 --> 02:34:36,480
Speaker 1: normal social democratic party right there, closing to like the

2512
02:34:36,480 --> 02:34:40,039
Speaker 1: Pirate Party, but like way weirder. Like so you you'll

2513
02:34:40,040 --> 02:34:42,080
Speaker 1: you'll you'll get people in this party who are like

2514
02:34:42,280 --> 02:34:43,720
Speaker 1: you know, who who were who are like you know,

2515
02:34:43,760 --> 02:34:46,200
Speaker 1: sort of like old school like like leftist militants, because

2516
02:34:46,200 --> 02:34:47,920
Speaker 1: this is where sort of like the energy was going right,

2517
02:34:47,959 --> 02:34:50,720
Speaker 1: but also like there's like anti vaxers in it. It

2518
02:34:50,760 --> 02:34:52,720
Speaker 1: was just it was just really weird iological like sort

2519
02:34:52,720 --> 02:34:56,080
Speaker 1: of mishmash. And then when they sort of got into power,

2520
02:34:56,320 --> 02:34:58,120
Speaker 1: like none of these people have ever been in politics before,

2521
02:34:58,160 --> 02:35:00,640
Speaker 1: and so like you know, you'd at someone who was

2522
02:35:00,680 --> 02:35:03,000
Speaker 1: like the head of garbage collection, right, who's from this

2523
02:35:03,040 --> 02:35:05,360
Speaker 1: party and they have no fucking idea how to collect garbage, right,

2524
02:35:05,400 --> 02:35:08,040
Speaker 1: And it was it's it's this real ship show because

2525
02:35:08,040 --> 02:35:10,000
Speaker 1: like you know, and then you have the Democratic Party,

2526
02:35:10,000 --> 02:35:12,240
Speaker 1: which are basically sort of just like lib hacks at

2527
02:35:12,240 --> 02:35:14,920
Speaker 1: this point. And this meant that, like you know, and

2528
02:35:14,920 --> 02:35:17,320
Speaker 1: they eventually sort of aligned with each other to try

2529
02:35:17,360 --> 02:35:21,959
Speaker 1: to keep like other like fascist basically like right wing

2530
02:35:22,000 --> 02:35:24,920
Speaker 1: groups out of power. But they like they also they

2531
02:35:24,959 --> 02:35:27,200
Speaker 1: also like had an alliance for a little bit with

2532
02:35:28,320 --> 02:35:30,480
Speaker 1: one of the right wing parties. It's it's an incredibly

2533
02:35:30,959 --> 02:35:36,160
Speaker 1: like bizarre story ends like honestly like deserves like its

2534
02:35:36,200 --> 02:35:38,880
Speaker 1: own episode one day. But yeah, yeah, they're they're very weird.

2535
02:35:38,920 --> 02:35:42,440
Speaker 1: They're not in effective left thing at all. They're just

2536
02:35:43,879 --> 02:35:47,879
Speaker 1: very very sort of like mishmash confused populist thing. And

2537
02:35:47,920 --> 02:35:50,840
Speaker 1: it didn't like they yeah, like they definitely did not

2538
02:35:50,959 --> 02:35:54,480
Speaker 1: sort of like succeed in preventing an alternative, etcetera, etcetera.

2539
02:35:54,520 --> 02:35:58,600
Speaker 1: It was, I don't know, kind of a disaster. Yeah,

2540
02:35:58,840 --> 02:36:00,960
Speaker 1: Italy's like it's worth noting as well. I think that

2541
02:36:01,040 --> 02:36:04,400
Speaker 1: like anti fascism is is sort of baked into the

2542
02:36:04,600 --> 02:36:08,680
Speaker 1: myth of the Italian Republic, right, like the that's what

2543
02:36:08,760 --> 02:36:10,960
Speaker 1: the republic rests are, that's where it comes from. That's

2544
02:36:11,000 --> 02:36:15,400
Speaker 1: creation myth. But like much in the same way as

2545
02:36:15,400 --> 02:36:17,640
Speaker 1: people living in the United States will be familiar with

2546
02:36:17,640 --> 02:36:22,160
Speaker 1: how these creation miss kind of lose all relevancy apart

2547
02:36:22,200 --> 02:36:25,520
Speaker 1: from some kind of totemic, meaning like their repetition has

2548
02:36:25,600 --> 02:36:27,280
Speaker 1: some kind of linked to that, but they don't really

2549
02:36:27,280 --> 02:36:30,760
Speaker 1: have any any value in the contemporary discourse in terms

2550
02:36:30,800 --> 02:36:33,120
Speaker 1: of animating and the way people act. I think you

2551
02:36:33,120 --> 02:36:36,280
Speaker 1: could say that that's happened in Italy, right, like people

2552
02:36:36,959 --> 02:36:39,840
Speaker 1: talk about people in institutions talk about anti fascism as

2553
02:36:39,879 --> 02:36:42,440
Speaker 1: where they come from and as foundational to it, LEAs democracy,

2554
02:36:42,520 --> 02:36:45,280
Speaker 1: but it's been so subsumed into structures of power that

2555
02:36:45,440 --> 02:36:49,199
Speaker 1: it that institutional discussion of anti fascism has lost its

2556
02:36:49,240 --> 02:36:53,080
Speaker 1: relevance from like the street fighting like anti fascism that

2557
02:36:53,120 --> 02:36:55,600
Speaker 1: created the republic in the first place, So that concept

2558
02:36:55,680 --> 02:36:59,200
Speaker 1: is kind of defanct along with like, Italian liberals have

2559
02:36:59,360 --> 02:37:04,840
Speaker 1: always walked hand in hand with like business interests and

2560
02:37:05,240 --> 02:37:08,959
Speaker 1: the right wing right, like from even previous to fascism,

2561
02:37:09,600 --> 02:37:12,160
Speaker 1: like there was a quote unquote liberal monarchy, right, So

2562
02:37:12,200 --> 02:37:17,560
Speaker 1: Italian liberalism isn't necessarily this anti authoritarian force. It was

2563
02:37:17,600 --> 02:37:19,920
Speaker 1: briefly like it got made to be briefly by the

2564
02:37:20,000 --> 02:37:22,800
Speaker 1: organized working class movement, but it hasn't been and it's

2565
02:37:22,800 --> 02:37:26,160
Speaker 1: going back to not being. Yeah, I mean, I think

2566
02:37:26,160 --> 02:37:27,880
Speaker 1: I now think we should may as well get into

2567
02:37:28,040 --> 02:37:31,480
Speaker 1: milanni Is actual like views and what she actually believes

2568
02:37:31,480 --> 02:37:34,400
Speaker 1: in the pauses, which you mean, what she actually believes

2569
02:37:34,400 --> 02:37:37,560
Speaker 1: in the bass is maybe slightly different things. Um, but

2570
02:37:38,040 --> 02:37:42,080
Speaker 1: we'll we'll, we'll at least at least start. So Milani's party,

2571
02:37:42,240 --> 02:37:46,040
Speaker 1: the Brothers of Italy party, was formed to quote carry

2572
02:37:46,080 --> 02:37:50,640
Speaker 1: forth the spirit and legacy unquote of the Italian Social

2573
02:37:50,680 --> 02:37:55,840
Speaker 1: Movement or the m s I the end, and the

2574
02:37:55,840 --> 02:37:59,720
Speaker 1: the m s I is the descendant of Mussolini's National

2575
02:38:00,080 --> 02:38:03,160
Speaker 1: Just Party. It's it's it's like a has a direct lineage.

2576
02:38:03,959 --> 02:38:07,160
Speaker 1: They even have the flame, right, they are still using

2577
02:38:07,200 --> 02:38:11,160
Speaker 1: the same logo, which is the flame on his tomb.

2578
02:38:11,240 --> 02:38:15,280
Speaker 1: I think that's where it comes from, right, Yeah, So,

2579
02:38:16,120 --> 02:38:21,840
Speaker 1: uh Melani has said that quote LGBT lobbies are out

2580
02:38:21,879 --> 02:38:25,160
Speaker 1: there to harm the women and and they're and they're

2581
02:38:25,160 --> 02:38:30,280
Speaker 1: attacking the family by destroying gender identity. Um. She's made

2582
02:38:30,280 --> 02:38:36,880
Speaker 1: statements about George Soros, calling him an international speculator. More

2583
02:38:36,920 --> 02:38:41,120
Speaker 1: on more on that. In the Saco uh he says

2584
02:38:41,240 --> 02:38:46,160
Speaker 1: that that that Soros finances global mass immigration, that thrends

2585
02:38:46,200 --> 02:38:51,000
Speaker 1: a great replacement of white, native born Italians. Um Melani

2586
02:38:51,120 --> 02:38:56,119
Speaker 1: shows affinity for other kind of authoritarian strong men, like

2587
02:38:56,200 --> 02:39:00,520
Speaker 1: the the the marine Lee pen who's the leader of

2588
02:39:00,560 --> 02:39:06,840
Speaker 1: the of the National Rally Party in France. Strong and

2589
02:39:08,440 --> 02:39:11,840
Speaker 1: that's an it's part of this section on strong men

2590
02:39:12,320 --> 02:39:17,480
Speaker 1: like political political strong men. She's she's she's previously supported

2591
02:39:17,560 --> 02:39:22,920
Speaker 1: as Joe Rogan taught me, Garrison strong times mega hard

2592
02:39:23,000 --> 02:39:27,080
Speaker 1: men and also what I've learned from Matt Well, she's

2593
02:39:27,080 --> 02:39:31,000
Speaker 1: what is a woman? So yeah, strong man. But like

2594
02:39:31,040 --> 02:39:35,480
Speaker 1: Milanni's previously supported Putin, although she's kind of lowered that

2595
02:39:35,600 --> 02:39:40,400
Speaker 1: enthusiasm since the invasion of Ukraine. She has she does

2596
02:39:40,440 --> 02:39:43,760
Speaker 1: have a pro Ukraine position on that publicly. Um but

2597
02:39:43,879 --> 02:39:47,879
Speaker 1: she's expressed kind of affinity for the types of other

2598
02:39:47,920 --> 02:39:50,680
Speaker 1: fascist leaders across Europe. We've see in Sweden, we've see

2599
02:39:50,720 --> 02:39:53,119
Speaker 1: in Poland, we've seen in Hungary. She's kind of aligned

2600
02:39:53,120 --> 02:39:55,240
Speaker 1: aligned herself with some of some of that kind of

2601
02:39:55,280 --> 02:39:59,039
Speaker 1: trend inside of Europe. Milanni wants to ban same sex

2602
02:39:59,040 --> 02:40:02,600
Speaker 1: couples from adopting children, and possibly dissolve the same sex

2603
02:40:02,640 --> 02:40:05,480
Speaker 1: couples legal parentage over the children that they've already adopted.

2604
02:40:06,000 --> 02:40:09,480
Speaker 1: Her party has sought to ban a cartoon featuring a

2605
02:40:09,520 --> 02:40:13,000
Speaker 1: bear with two mothers, arguing that kids should not be

2606
02:40:13,120 --> 02:40:17,039
Speaker 1: seeing same sex adoption as natural or normal because it's not.

2607
02:40:17,760 --> 02:40:23,359
Speaker 1: Um so basic kind of right wing censorship of materials

2608
02:40:23,360 --> 02:40:25,640
Speaker 1: that they don't like. I don't think children should be

2609
02:40:25,720 --> 02:40:29,520
Speaker 1: allowed to watch cartoons with bears in them. Okay, good

2610
02:40:29,560 --> 02:40:32,400
Speaker 1: for you. It is going to reduce their readiness when

2611
02:40:32,480 --> 02:40:38,280
Speaker 1: it becomes time to fight the bears. But Milanni also

2612
02:40:38,280 --> 02:40:42,679
Speaker 1: wants to ban gay Italians from traveling elsewhere for like surrogacy.

2613
02:40:43,000 --> 02:40:45,200
Speaker 1: Um so like so like they can't they can't leave

2614
02:40:45,280 --> 02:40:48,760
Speaker 1: the country to get to get like to have them

2615
02:40:48,760 --> 02:40:51,920
Speaker 1: become parents and return less. Like it's it's this, it's this,

2616
02:40:52,040 --> 02:40:55,039
Speaker 1: it's this whole whole thing. I'm gonna read a quote

2617
02:40:55,080 --> 02:40:58,000
Speaker 1: from Ruth bend Guite, a professor of history and Italian

2618
02:40:58,000 --> 02:41:00,800
Speaker 1: studies at New York University. Quote. Since twenty seventeen, she

2619
02:41:00,800 --> 02:41:04,760
Speaker 1: has tweeted repeatedly that Italian identity is being deliberately erased

2620
02:41:04,760 --> 02:41:10,600
Speaker 1: by globalists such as Soros and European Union officials, who

2621
02:41:10,680 --> 02:41:17,240
Speaker 1: have conspired to unleash quote uncontrollable mass migration. Um. So

2622
02:41:17,440 --> 02:41:23,480
Speaker 1: normal normal stuff there and more on so so in

2623
02:41:23,480 --> 02:41:26,440
Speaker 1: in a in a speech, in a few speeches, and repeatedly,

2624
02:41:26,959 --> 02:41:31,440
Speaker 1: she refers to financial speculators and has called people like

2625
02:41:31,480 --> 02:41:37,280
Speaker 1: George Soros an international speculator. Um. And you know when

2626
02:41:37,080 --> 02:41:41,400
Speaker 1: when she says, uh, financial speculators, I don't think she

2627
02:41:41,480 --> 02:41:45,520
Speaker 1: actually means just people who speculated about finances. I think

2628
02:41:45,560 --> 02:41:49,600
Speaker 1: she means something slightly different. Michael bench Laws, who is

2629
02:41:50,240 --> 02:41:54,720
Speaker 1: kind of history political person who works for NBC MSNBC PPS,

2630
02:41:54,800 --> 02:41:58,879
Speaker 1: had a really good, uh thread on on this, and

2631
02:41:58,920 --> 02:42:01,200
Speaker 1: I think it's important like this, this is a mainstream

2632
02:42:01,440 --> 02:42:05,160
Speaker 1: media guy, like this is not coming from antifa one

2633
02:42:05,240 --> 02:42:08,440
Speaker 1: six one on Twitter. This is like coming from like

2634
02:42:08,440 --> 02:42:10,760
Speaker 1: like in terms of like mainstream media actually talking about this.

2635
02:42:11,200 --> 02:42:14,720
Speaker 1: Uh quote the new Italian Prime Minister says that quote

2636
02:42:14,760 --> 02:42:17,800
Speaker 1: we will never be slaves at the mercy of financial

2637
02:42:17,879 --> 02:42:22,359
Speaker 1: speculators sounds just like nineteen thirties in Italy and Germany.

2638
02:42:22,800 --> 02:42:26,680
Speaker 1: Uh No, thanks for the memories Mussolini enjoyed publicly referring

2639
02:42:26,680 --> 02:42:30,359
Speaker 1: to Jewish people as financial speculators who needed to be controlled.

2640
02:42:30,680 --> 02:42:32,880
Speaker 1: When a fascist leader speaks, whether it be in Europe

2641
02:42:32,959 --> 02:42:36,440
Speaker 1: or America, never brush aside what you are hearing as

2642
02:42:36,520 --> 02:42:39,840
Speaker 1: meaningless rhetoric. Do not fail to learn from the history

2643
02:42:39,920 --> 02:42:43,960
Speaker 1: of the nineteen thirties. History of the nineteen shows us

2644
02:42:43,959 --> 02:42:46,119
Speaker 1: that fascist leaders in the United States have been very

2645
02:42:46,160 --> 02:42:49,840
Speaker 1: eager to link US and pool resources, often in secret,

2646
02:42:50,080 --> 02:42:53,880
Speaker 1: with fascist leaders in Europe. Monitor carefully and beware, and

2647
02:42:53,959 --> 02:42:57,040
Speaker 1: please never take it at face value. When and if

2648
02:42:57,160 --> 02:43:00,160
Speaker 1: fascist leaders in America and Europe tell you that they

2649
02:43:00,160 --> 02:43:03,640
Speaker 1: have no personal or political animists towards Jews or other

2650
02:43:03,680 --> 02:43:07,640
Speaker 1: minority groups in society. Too many examples in history tells

2651
02:43:07,840 --> 02:43:12,200
Speaker 1: us the opposite, unquote. So that is like you know,

2652
02:43:12,800 --> 02:43:16,520
Speaker 1: regular MSNBC NBC people being like, hey, when she says

2653
02:43:16,560 --> 02:43:20,280
Speaker 1: this thing, she needs Jews should should should. We also

2654
02:43:20,320 --> 02:43:24,000
Speaker 1: talk about like the way parts of like the left

2655
02:43:24,000 --> 02:43:25,680
Speaker 1: on Twitter reacted to this, and also the sort of

2656
02:43:25,720 --> 02:43:28,400
Speaker 1: history of like how some people were like, oh wow,

2657
02:43:28,440 --> 02:43:33,720
Speaker 1: she's calling out the capitalists. That's not a lot of

2658
02:43:33,720 --> 02:43:35,280
Speaker 1: this is like you guys are maybe the dogs people

2659
02:43:35,280 --> 02:43:38,520
Speaker 1: who have ever lived Like she immediately like acts the

2660
02:43:39,000 --> 02:43:41,360
Speaker 1: I know she like this is the same thing we

2661
02:43:41,400 --> 02:43:45,200
Speaker 1: see with people like like Dugan even right what she's saying,

2662
02:43:45,440 --> 02:43:48,680
Speaker 1: she she's not saying that, you know, international capital is

2663
02:43:48,720 --> 02:43:52,160
Speaker 1: bad because it hurts the poor people or workers. She's

2664
02:43:52,200 --> 02:43:55,480
Speaker 1: she's mad about it because it's because it's a threat

2665
02:43:55,600 --> 02:43:58,920
Speaker 1: to traditional identities. It's it's it's it's a threat to

2666
02:43:59,760 --> 02:44:03,279
Speaker 1: the way that you want, the the idea of the family,

2667
02:44:03,760 --> 02:44:06,080
Speaker 1: it's the way it's it's it's it's threatening all of

2668
02:44:06,080 --> 02:44:10,360
Speaker 1: these things that are about your like God, family, country, brotherhood, ship.

2669
02:44:10,400 --> 02:44:13,680
Speaker 1: It's not about actual poor people, working class people at all.

2670
02:44:13,720 --> 02:44:15,920
Speaker 1: That's not that's not what it is. It's it's not

2671
02:44:16,000 --> 02:44:19,920
Speaker 1: a good criticism of capitalist modernity, just to just to

2672
02:44:20,000 --> 02:44:25,680
Speaker 1: propose another form of more like authoritarian capitalist modernity. It's

2673
02:44:25,800 --> 02:44:29,520
Speaker 1: it's it's it's not. It's not good. Um. The original

2674
02:44:29,560 --> 02:44:32,720
Speaker 1: fascists in Italy did the same thing when they denounced

2675
02:44:32,720 --> 02:44:37,120
Speaker 1: like British um placrats. It's just it's it's not, it's

2676
02:44:37,160 --> 02:44:41,080
Speaker 1: not the it's not a good critique of capitalists. So well,

2677
02:44:41,200 --> 02:44:43,360
Speaker 1: and we should point out to that. Like like so

2678
02:44:43,480 --> 02:44:48,480
Speaker 1: Mateo Savini, who was like the former like basically until

2679
02:44:48,480 --> 02:44:50,280
Speaker 1: the selection, he was like the guy he was in

2680
02:44:50,320 --> 02:44:52,119
Speaker 1: charge of the right wing. Like he he's a guy

2681
02:44:52,160 --> 02:44:54,720
Speaker 1: who got like arrested basically for trying to sink a

2682
02:44:54,760 --> 02:44:58,879
Speaker 1: migrant boat. Like so that's actually these guys he sucks

2683
02:44:58,959 --> 02:45:01,320
Speaker 1: um and but she she do this like more explicitly

2684
02:45:01,400 --> 02:45:04,200
Speaker 1: he would, you know, like specifically used Marxist terminology to

2685
02:45:04,200 --> 02:45:06,160
Speaker 1: push right wing stuff. So he he had a speech

2686
02:45:06,200 --> 02:45:08,920
Speaker 1: where he talked about like the reserve army of labor,

2687
02:45:08,959 --> 02:45:12,160
Speaker 1: which is this concept of Marxism that's about like basically

2688
02:45:12,879 --> 02:45:15,680
Speaker 1: Mark Marx is arguing that like like capitalism inherently produces

2689
02:45:15,720 --> 02:45:18,000
Speaker 1: this like quote unquote like reserve army of labor, like

2690
02:45:18,040 --> 02:45:20,879
Speaker 1: industrial army of labor, which is like an enormous mass

2691
02:45:20,920 --> 02:45:22,760
Speaker 1: of people who are unemployed. You've been spit out of

2692
02:45:22,760 --> 02:45:25,959
Speaker 1: the labor process, and you know, okay, and like and

2693
02:45:25,959 --> 02:45:30,400
Speaker 1: and and and like Mark Marx is like Marx is

2694
02:45:30,480 --> 02:45:33,520
Speaker 1: pro these people, which is a very important thing. He's like,

2695
02:45:33,560 --> 02:45:35,240
Speaker 1: these people are part of the poletariat, but they've been

2696
02:45:35,240 --> 02:45:37,760
Speaker 1: spit out of like like the capital wage relation to

2697
02:45:37,760 --> 02:45:40,600
Speaker 1: spit them out, and they're, yeah, they're they're they're they're

2698
02:45:40,640 --> 02:45:43,440
Speaker 1: to sort of like regulate like wages stuff happens. But

2699
02:45:43,480 --> 02:45:45,480
Speaker 1: also there people who have just been sort of like disenfranchised,

2700
02:45:45,520 --> 02:45:48,400
Speaker 1: et etcetera. Salvini when he talks about the reserve army

2701
02:45:48,400 --> 02:45:50,920
Speaker 1: of labor specifically, is like, there is a reserve army

2702
02:45:50,959 --> 02:45:54,200
Speaker 1: of labor. Uh. These people are immigrants to North Africa

2703
02:45:54,320 --> 02:45:56,680
Speaker 1: and like the like the elites are like shipping these

2704
02:45:56,680 --> 02:46:00,080
Speaker 1: people into Italy to like destroy your jobs. And it

2705
02:46:00,360 --> 02:46:02,760
Speaker 1: is it is again very very important that you understand.

2706
02:46:02,840 --> 02:46:04,959
Speaker 1: This is what he like when he's using the marks term,

2707
02:46:05,040 --> 02:46:08,360
Speaker 1: he is using it. He is using it marks racism

2708
02:46:08,360 --> 02:46:13,480
Speaker 1: and not like Mark's anti capitalism, and you need to

2709
02:46:13,520 --> 02:46:15,160
Speaker 1: be able to tell what difference between these two things,

2710
02:46:15,280 --> 02:46:17,720
Speaker 1: because yeah, like especially in time Poults like this, this

2711
02:46:17,760 --> 02:46:20,360
Speaker 1: is the thing that happens. Like people people will use

2712
02:46:20,840 --> 02:46:23,560
Speaker 1: like even literally explicitly stuff that is from Marx but

2713
02:46:23,600 --> 02:46:25,280
Speaker 1: they will use it to be like we need to

2714
02:46:25,320 --> 02:46:28,760
Speaker 1: like machine gun every like boat of small children trying

2715
02:46:28,800 --> 02:46:33,199
Speaker 1: to free Libya. Like it's like cherry yeah, cherry picking

2716
02:46:33,240 --> 02:46:35,880
Speaker 1: these these bits of Marxism and the arranging them into

2717
02:46:35,920 --> 02:46:39,160
Speaker 1: a racist as fun college that you used to justify

2718
02:46:39,200 --> 02:46:42,560
Speaker 1: your bagotry. It's fashion. It did that the first time,

2719
02:46:42,640 --> 02:46:46,480
Speaker 1: it's doing it again then. And the other thing that

2720
02:46:46,560 --> 02:46:49,360
Speaker 1: kind of that's that's notable. In case people have not

2721
02:46:49,480 --> 02:46:53,000
Speaker 1: have not seen it, There's been h lots of video

2722
02:46:53,240 --> 02:46:59,800
Speaker 1: going around of of Melani openly praising um Mussolini, saying, quote,

2723
02:47:00,040 --> 02:47:02,320
Speaker 1: I believe Musolini was a good politician. Everything he did

2724
02:47:02,360 --> 02:47:04,640
Speaker 1: he did for Italy and there have been no other

2725
02:47:04,680 --> 02:47:07,760
Speaker 1: politicians like him in the past fifty years that now

2726
02:47:07,920 --> 02:47:11,039
Speaker 1: these interviews all come from the mid nineties. She has

2727
02:47:11,200 --> 02:47:17,080
Speaker 1: since said that her opinions on Mussolini have changed. She

2728
02:47:17,200 --> 02:47:19,720
Speaker 1: has nuts she has not said what her opinions have

2729
02:47:19,840 --> 02:47:27,440
Speaker 1: changed to she changed, but this was. This was. These

2730
02:47:27,480 --> 02:47:31,320
Speaker 1: interviews all come from when she was when she was

2731
02:47:31,360 --> 02:47:35,840
Speaker 1: a young plucky girl getting into the Boy's Nazi club

2732
02:47:36,520 --> 02:47:39,240
Speaker 1: of and leading the youth wing of a fascist party

2733
02:47:39,280 --> 02:47:43,760
Speaker 1: founded by veterans of Musolini's dictatorship. UM. Since since her

2734
02:47:43,800 --> 02:47:45,840
Speaker 1: her own modern party, the Brothers of Italy, which was

2735
02:47:45,840 --> 02:47:49,640
Speaker 1: again started emerged from the fascist National Alliance, which grew

2736
02:47:49,680 --> 02:47:52,800
Speaker 1: out of the Italian Social Movement, which was founded by

2737
02:47:52,920 --> 02:47:56,600
Speaker 1: Mussolini regime officials UM, and she still uses the same

2738
02:47:56,760 --> 02:48:02,320
Speaker 1: logo for her current Mario Luigian Sorry, Brothers of Belief Party. UM.

2739
02:48:02,320 --> 02:48:05,280
Speaker 1: So yeah, let's have let's have one more ad break

2740
02:48:05,320 --> 02:48:07,360
Speaker 1: and then we'll talk about how mainstream media has been

2741
02:48:07,400 --> 02:48:15,520
Speaker 1: talking about the new girl Boss Mussolini and we are back.

2742
02:48:15,680 --> 02:48:18,840
Speaker 1: Oh I'm so excited. I'm so excited. So we're actually

2743
02:48:18,879 --> 02:48:23,199
Speaker 1: gonna talk. I'm first gonna read some stuff from the intercept,

2744
02:48:23,400 --> 02:48:25,439
Speaker 1: just not I would not say is actually a mainstream

2745
02:48:25,520 --> 02:48:27,480
Speaker 1: media It's a little bit outside of that, but it

2746
02:48:27,560 --> 02:48:29,920
Speaker 1: sets a good stage for the rest of the stuff

2747
02:48:29,920 --> 02:48:32,320
Speaker 1: that we will be talking about, which actually is dealing

2748
02:48:32,400 --> 02:48:36,800
Speaker 1: with how mainstream media has been framing UM. Milanni's election.

2749
02:48:36,959 --> 02:48:40,720
Speaker 1: So quote, the media got this right much of the time,

2750
02:48:40,840 --> 02:48:45,000
Speaker 1: giving predominant building to Melanie's fall right nationalism, but numerous

2751
02:48:45,080 --> 02:48:49,400
Speaker 1: English language headlines focused solely on her being Italy's first

2752
02:48:49,520 --> 02:48:52,760
Speaker 1: woman prime minister. Is tempting to say that her position

2753
02:48:52,800 --> 02:48:55,920
Speaker 1: as a woman leader should be considered irrelevant given her

2754
02:48:55,920 --> 02:49:00,000
Speaker 1: and her party's vile anti immigrant, nationalist, racist, anti LGBT

2755
02:49:00,000 --> 02:49:03,160
Speaker 1: e Q plus policies, but ignoring her womanhood misses some

2756
02:49:03,200 --> 02:49:07,040
Speaker 1: crucial points about her political ideology. Being a woman, a

2757
02:49:07,040 --> 02:49:11,480
Speaker 1: white woman that is, is not in conflict with Milanni's fascism.

2758
02:49:11,720 --> 02:49:15,400
Speaker 1: White supremacy has always relied on active enforcement by white women,

2759
02:49:15,560 --> 02:49:20,080
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to upholding racist, po nationalist narratives.

2760
02:49:20,879 --> 02:49:24,240
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that that's that's that's a good

2761
02:49:24,240 --> 02:49:28,120
Speaker 1: stage for kind of how every other headline and article

2762
02:49:28,160 --> 02:49:31,959
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about here. Let's start with The Guardian.

2763
02:49:32,440 --> 02:49:34,640
Speaker 1: The Guardian ran a piece saying, quote, the election of

2764
02:49:34,680 --> 02:49:39,160
Speaker 1: Italy's fascist adjacent Georgia Milani is a public reminder that

2765
02:49:39,200 --> 02:49:45,760
Speaker 1: women can be just as awful as men. That's a

2766
02:49:45,800 --> 02:49:49,119
Speaker 1: good headline. And this was was this was the Guardian US,

2767
02:49:49,200 --> 02:49:54,880
Speaker 1: the Guardian UK. This was Guardian UK. Yeah, fashionis and

2768
02:49:55,360 --> 02:50:00,000
Speaker 1: this and this article and this, this article is actually

2769
02:50:00,120 --> 02:50:05,359
Speaker 1: directly in opposition to Australia's a sky News headline Georgia

2770
02:50:05,440 --> 02:50:08,640
Speaker 1: Milani is not a fascist. Um this is this is

2771
02:50:10,720 --> 02:50:14,120
Speaker 1: just directly in opposition to this Sky News article, which

2772
02:50:14,160 --> 02:50:18,200
Speaker 1: is kind of funny. Um uh NPRS Morning edition went

2773
02:50:18,240 --> 02:50:21,000
Speaker 1: with quote a far right group with neo fascist roots

2774
02:50:21,120 --> 02:50:25,840
Speaker 1: wins big in Italy's election. Um A CBS Mornings host said,

2775
02:50:25,879 --> 02:50:30,160
Speaker 1: Milani rejects the label of fascism while embracing its symbols,

2776
02:50:30,760 --> 02:50:34,879
Speaker 1: just its symbols, just you know, like they were specifally

2777
02:50:34,920 --> 02:50:37,280
Speaker 1: talking about like the actual like iconography that they directly

2778
02:50:37,360 --> 02:50:40,840
Speaker 1: left like this, like the slogans like brotherhood, God, country

2779
02:50:40,959 --> 02:50:43,760
Speaker 1: type things, and like like the logo and it's it

2780
02:50:43,840 --> 02:50:47,760
Speaker 1: was part actually part of a larger thing around around fascism. Look,

2781
02:50:47,800 --> 02:50:49,320
Speaker 1: we'll actually get a bit more into that on our

2782
02:50:49,360 --> 02:50:54,720
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson's section. Oh good. The Washington Post headlined quote,

2783
02:50:54,920 --> 02:50:59,360
Speaker 1: the mainstreaming of the West's far right is complete, and

2784
02:50:59,400 --> 02:51:03,560
Speaker 1: then opened article was saying in the land that invented fascism,

2785
02:51:03,760 --> 02:51:07,039
Speaker 1: the far right is back in power. Milani has a

2786
02:51:07,120 --> 02:51:10,760
Speaker 1: lengthy record of extremist rhetoric, has embraced the white supremacist

2787
02:51:10,840 --> 02:51:14,000
Speaker 1: narrative of the great Replacement theory, and has engaged in

2788
02:51:14,160 --> 02:51:18,440
Speaker 1: frequent dog whistling to a radical base. The Atlantic had

2789
02:51:18,520 --> 02:51:22,520
Speaker 1: a good piece titled the Return of Fascism in Italy

2790
02:51:23,240 --> 02:51:26,480
Speaker 1: um saying that the Brothers of Italy, which Milanni has

2791
02:51:26,560 --> 02:51:31,320
Speaker 1: led sin has an underlying and sinister familiarity. The party

2792
02:51:31,360 --> 02:51:34,360
Speaker 1: formed a decade ago to carry on the spirit and

2793
02:51:34,440 --> 02:51:37,360
Speaker 1: legacy of the extreme right in Italy, which dates back

2794
02:51:37,360 --> 02:51:40,080
Speaker 1: to the Italian Social Movement, the party that formed in

2795
02:51:40,160 --> 02:51:42,840
Speaker 1: place of the National Fascist Party, which was banned after

2796
02:51:42,879 --> 02:51:45,840
Speaker 1: World War Two. Now, just weeks before the one hundredth

2797
02:51:45,879 --> 02:51:49,800
Speaker 1: anniversary of the March on Rome, the October nineteen event

2798
02:51:49,840 --> 02:51:53,199
Speaker 1: that put Musolini in power, Italy may have a former

2799
02:51:53,840 --> 02:51:57,320
Speaker 1: Italian Social Movement activist for its prime minister and a

2800
02:51:57,400 --> 02:52:02,440
Speaker 1: government rooted in fascism. So that's like overall, there was

2801
02:52:02,480 --> 02:52:05,320
Speaker 1: a lot of really good Like most of the of

2802
02:52:05,360 --> 02:52:08,560
Speaker 1: the extremely reference or viral kind of articles on this

2803
02:52:08,920 --> 02:52:13,000
Speaker 1: had decent headlines and decent content actually emphasizing the fascist nature.

2804
02:52:13,560 --> 02:52:15,840
Speaker 1: Now it's funny because the Atlantic had this return of

2805
02:52:15,840 --> 02:52:19,320
Speaker 1: Fascism in Italy one, but The Atlantic also ran an

2806
02:52:19,320 --> 02:52:23,879
Speaker 1: op ed piece titled Melanie's election win is not a

2807
02:52:23,959 --> 02:52:28,800
Speaker 1: vote for Fascism, which later changed its title to Italians

2808
02:52:28,879 --> 02:52:33,640
Speaker 1: didn't exactly vote for fascism Um, which to its credit,

2809
02:52:33,800 --> 02:52:37,800
Speaker 1: still discusses uh Melani's links to fascism, but it questioned

2810
02:52:37,840 --> 02:52:40,920
Speaker 1: how much power she actually will have to enact said

2811
02:52:40,959 --> 02:52:45,360
Speaker 1: fascism um. But so there was there was some like

2812
02:52:45,400 --> 02:52:48,200
Speaker 1: both sides and going on on some A lot of

2813
02:52:48,200 --> 02:52:50,480
Speaker 1: these news outlets, they'll put one up, they'll put one

2814
02:52:50,480 --> 02:52:53,800
Speaker 1: piece out that's actually very good about centering the fascist rhetoric,

2815
02:52:53,959 --> 02:52:57,480
Speaker 1: another one being like she may be a fascist, but

2816
02:52:57,480 --> 02:53:00,280
Speaker 1: it's not like she could do much and she's a woman. Yeah,

2817
02:53:01,560 --> 02:53:04,320
Speaker 1: I think this is kind of like I think, I

2818
02:53:04,320 --> 02:53:06,000
Speaker 1: think it's just kind of a post J six thing.

2819
02:53:06,640 --> 02:53:10,320
Speaker 1: Like I I think if this had happened in I

2820
02:53:10,360 --> 02:53:12,240
Speaker 1: don't think the LA media would have been like as

2821
02:53:12,320 --> 02:53:15,640
Speaker 1: willing to just do this. Absolutely that is that is

2822
02:53:15,760 --> 02:53:18,360
Speaker 1: undoubtedly true. Um. I think I think they kind of,

2823
02:53:18,400 --> 02:53:21,280
Speaker 1: like like liberals in general, kind of were shaking out

2824
02:53:21,280 --> 02:53:23,760
Speaker 1: of their complacency when they're sort of like beautiful symbols

2825
02:53:23,760 --> 02:53:26,160
Speaker 1: were under like finally actually came under attack and not

2826
02:53:26,280 --> 02:53:33,880
Speaker 1: just like US. Routers ran a confusing headline titled nationalist

2827
02:53:33,920 --> 02:53:38,480
Speaker 1: Milani set to smash Italy's glass Sea leg and become premier,

2828
02:53:38,840 --> 02:53:44,760
Speaker 1: which is really it just sounds super weird. Nationalist Milandy

2829
02:53:44,879 --> 02:53:48,160
Speaker 1: smashes glass Sea like it's just like it's like, yeah,

2830
02:53:48,400 --> 02:53:53,879
Speaker 1: I guess the cos it's it's what. That was one

2831
02:53:53,920 --> 02:53:56,800
Speaker 1: of the weirder headlines because it still has nationalists in it,

2832
02:53:57,080 --> 02:53:59,120
Speaker 1: but it has the whole glass stealing bit, which is

2833
02:53:59,160 --> 02:54:04,480
Speaker 1: just like I There was another Guardian UK piece uh

2834
02:54:04,720 --> 02:54:08,840
Speaker 1: that had the headline uh at Italy's Georgia Melani is

2835
02:54:08,879 --> 02:54:12,800
Speaker 1: no Mussolini, but she may be a Trump, which is

2836
02:54:12,879 --> 02:54:17,320
Speaker 1: an interesting article. Um it It has some a lot

2837
02:54:17,360 --> 02:54:20,400
Speaker 1: of it's actually pretty reasonable h and it emphasizes her

2838
02:54:20,520 --> 02:54:23,440
Speaker 1: more recent comments trying to align herself more with the

2839
02:54:23,520 --> 02:54:26,960
Speaker 1: modern US Republican Party rather than any kind of form

2840
02:54:26,959 --> 02:54:32,039
Speaker 1: of nineteen thirties style fascism. Quote hawkish on foreign policies,

2841
02:54:32,160 --> 02:54:36,960
Speaker 1: orthodox on economic policies, nostalgic nationalists, and inimical to civil liberties.

2842
02:54:37,320 --> 02:54:41,360
Speaker 1: This right wing politics is illiberal at heart, but it

2843
02:54:41,400 --> 02:54:44,240
Speaker 1: would aim for respectability in what used to be called

2844
02:54:44,360 --> 02:54:48,480
Speaker 1: the establishment, including by not undermining the rule of law

2845
02:54:48,800 --> 02:54:52,640
Speaker 1: in the way that Hungarian Prime Minister Victor Orban has

2846
02:54:52,680 --> 02:54:57,240
Speaker 1: done unquote. So there's it kind of I do like

2847
02:54:57,400 --> 02:55:02,480
Speaker 1: the there is some things that are worth we're thinking

2848
02:55:02,480 --> 02:55:04,959
Speaker 1: about in terms of how she has a lot in

2849
02:55:05,000 --> 02:55:08,480
Speaker 1: the past year tried to align herself more with the

2850
02:55:08,520 --> 02:55:14,320
Speaker 1: Modern Republican Party in the States, which still is as

2851
02:55:14,320 --> 02:55:16,600
Speaker 1: we discussed the show, a lot is kind of getting

2852
02:55:16,640 --> 02:55:20,160
Speaker 1: more fashion I would say, so, so I will say

2853
02:55:20,160 --> 02:55:21,400
Speaker 1: it is has I don't know if you're gonna talk

2854
02:55:21,400 --> 02:55:23,680
Speaker 1: about this, but it has been very funny. She managed

2855
02:55:23,680 --> 02:55:27,160
Speaker 1: to sort of like lose like the like really hardline

2856
02:55:27,680 --> 02:55:30,160
Speaker 1: like American right wingers because she did some sort of

2857
02:55:30,200 --> 02:55:33,039
Speaker 1: like pronato ee things and so now there's like like

2858
02:55:33,040 --> 02:55:34,880
Speaker 1: so like like Snovich and a whole bunch of other

2859
02:55:34,879 --> 02:55:37,120
Speaker 1: people like that were posting about how like she's like

2860
02:55:37,160 --> 02:55:41,160
Speaker 1: an op and she was part of some I don't remember.

2861
02:55:41,240 --> 02:55:44,000
Speaker 1: I don't even I don't. I don't even think even

2862
02:55:44,000 --> 02:55:46,480
Speaker 1: believes that because I don't, I don't. I've seen much

2863
02:55:46,560 --> 02:55:49,119
Speaker 1: more people be very enthusiastic about her than people being

2864
02:55:49,120 --> 02:55:51,480
Speaker 1: critical of her who are on the fashionst rite in

2865
02:55:51,520 --> 02:55:53,520
Speaker 1: the States. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, like there's

2866
02:55:53,640 --> 02:55:56,039
Speaker 1: there's definitely was especially like there's a whole thing about

2867
02:55:56,040 --> 02:55:58,480
Speaker 1: her being like remember the Aspen Institute, but I think

2868
02:55:58,600 --> 02:56:00,280
Speaker 1: was happening for like I don't know, may maybe that

2869
02:56:00,320 --> 02:56:03,560
Speaker 1: maybe that's just a thing like right after she got

2870
02:56:03,000 --> 02:56:06,800
Speaker 1: like I don't I don't know, I mean on kind

2871
02:56:06,800 --> 02:56:08,760
Speaker 1: of on this note of of her trying to align

2872
02:56:08,920 --> 02:56:13,400
Speaker 1: more with like modern United States conservatism. UM. In one

2873
02:56:13,440 --> 02:56:17,560
Speaker 1: of their newsletters, Politico included that Milani has appeared at

2874
02:56:17,720 --> 02:56:20,800
Speaker 1: see Pack this past year on the National Prayer Breakfast

2875
02:56:21,280 --> 02:56:24,720
Speaker 1: and uh and it did did join the Aspen Institute

2876
02:56:24,720 --> 02:56:29,119
Speaker 1: in but she and Steve Bannon were films strategizing together

2877
02:56:29,200 --> 02:56:33,160
Speaker 1: as far back and Bannon instead of her back then

2878
02:56:33,280 --> 02:56:36,800
Speaker 1: quote you put a reasonable face on right wing populism,

2879
02:56:37,080 --> 02:56:41,520
Speaker 1: you will get elected. Um. So her and Bannon have

2880
02:56:41,600 --> 02:56:45,960
Speaker 1: been strategizing for years. She's at Sepack. Uh. This past year,

2881
02:56:46,000 --> 02:56:48,960
Speaker 1: she gave a speech there that Tucker was very enthusiastic about.

2882
02:56:48,959 --> 02:56:52,440
Speaker 1: In his segment about her. That political newsletter that included

2883
02:56:52,440 --> 02:56:55,119
Speaker 1: the bits about Bannon and Spack also had I think

2884
02:56:55,160 --> 02:56:58,280
Speaker 1: this line, which sums up some of my thoughts on

2885
02:56:58,320 --> 02:57:01,080
Speaker 1: this quote you've already read and in dozens of headlines

2886
02:57:01,080 --> 02:57:04,240
Speaker 1: that Milani will be Italy's most far right leader since Miscellani.

2887
02:57:04,600 --> 02:57:06,800
Speaker 1: But don't fall for the trap of reducing this far

2888
02:57:06,879 --> 02:57:10,640
Speaker 1: right firebrand too simple labels like the Italian Donald Trump,

2889
02:57:10,760 --> 02:57:14,160
Speaker 1: or Victor or band or Marine le pen global takeaway.

2890
02:57:14,600 --> 02:57:17,760
Speaker 1: Right wing populism is getting smarter. It could have died

2891
02:57:17,800 --> 02:57:21,920
Speaker 1: off with Trump selection lass or Boris Johnson's humiliating ejection

2892
02:57:22,040 --> 02:57:28,120
Speaker 1: from Downing Street, but that isn't happening. So I have

2893
02:57:28,200 --> 02:57:29,760
Speaker 1: I have a few more of a few more things

2894
02:57:29,760 --> 02:57:31,960
Speaker 1: here which will lead into kind of how the right

2895
02:57:32,040 --> 02:57:35,240
Speaker 1: has been talking about this um. There was a scene.

2896
02:57:35,640 --> 02:57:37,200
Speaker 1: There was a scene an article on the victory that

2897
02:57:37,240 --> 02:57:41,680
Speaker 1: headlined the conditions are perfect for a populist resurgence in Europe,

2898
02:57:42,200 --> 02:57:46,760
Speaker 1: which also referenced the anti immigration Sweden Democrats, who are

2899
02:57:46,760 --> 02:57:49,320
Speaker 1: expected to play a major role in the new government

2900
02:57:49,320 --> 02:57:51,680
Speaker 1: after winning the second largest share of seats in the

2901
02:57:51,720 --> 02:57:55,240
Speaker 1: general election last month. The party has been now mainstreamed

2902
02:57:55,320 --> 02:57:59,640
Speaker 1: and initially had its roots in very strict neo Nazism.

2903
02:57:59,680 --> 02:58:01,560
Speaker 1: Over All, I was less happy with some of the

2904
02:58:01,600 --> 02:58:05,840
Speaker 1: New York Times headlines relating to Milanni's election. There was

2905
02:58:05,920 --> 02:58:09,800
Speaker 1: there was the the cheeky headline Georgia Milani is extreme,

2906
02:58:09,920 --> 02:58:15,160
Speaker 1: but she's no tyrant, which is of again a weird

2907
02:58:15,200 --> 02:58:18,279
Speaker 1: way to frame a headline. Um but even that peace

2908
02:58:18,520 --> 02:58:23,400
Speaker 1: still opens with this line saying, quote, it happened here again.

2909
02:58:23,560 --> 02:58:26,119
Speaker 1: Nearly one hundred years since the March on Rome, Italy

2910
02:58:26,240 --> 02:58:29,200
Speaker 1: on Sunday voted in a right wing coalition headed by

2911
02:58:29,280 --> 02:58:33,760
Speaker 1: a party directly descended from Mussolini's fascist regime. Mrs Milani

2912
02:58:34,040 --> 02:58:37,119
Speaker 1: is the first post fascist leader to win a national

2913
02:58:37,160 --> 02:58:40,160
Speaker 1: election in Italy after World War Two, and her party

2914
02:58:40,280 --> 02:58:43,320
Speaker 1: is the heir to the Italian Social Movement, the reincarnation

2915
02:58:43,400 --> 02:58:47,200
Speaker 1: of the long dissolved and constitutionally banned Fascist party. So

2916
02:58:48,120 --> 02:58:51,640
Speaker 1: weird headline still it includes stuff in the article. But

2917
02:58:52,160 --> 02:58:55,040
Speaker 1: in the age of social media and honestly on news media,

2918
02:58:55,160 --> 02:58:59,840
Speaker 1: headlines are way more important. Unfortunately, um and there was

2919
02:59:00,120 --> 02:59:02,640
Speaker 1: an actual New York Times article, not just not just

2920
02:59:02,720 --> 02:59:07,000
Speaker 1: opinion piece have the headline Milani wins voting in Italy

2921
02:59:07,440 --> 02:59:11,959
Speaker 1: and breakthrough for Europe's hard right. Another Times piece read

2922
02:59:12,240 --> 02:59:16,600
Speaker 1: Europe looks at Italy's Milani with caution and trepidation. Uh

2923
02:59:16,760 --> 02:59:20,039
Speaker 1: Milani posed to be the country's first far right leader.

2924
02:59:20,040 --> 02:59:24,720
Speaker 1: Since Mussolini, so still not the worst, not the best

2925
02:59:24,800 --> 02:59:27,520
Speaker 1: from the New York Times, which you mean, no no

2926
02:59:27,640 --> 02:59:31,200
Speaker 1: shockers there. Um now on to kind of the right.

2927
02:59:31,440 --> 02:59:35,240
Speaker 1: So the right had a really big mix of reactions

2928
02:59:35,280 --> 02:59:39,160
Speaker 1: based on how the left was talking and liberals were

2929
02:59:39,160 --> 02:59:41,840
Speaker 1: talking about this. There was a lot of enthusiasm coming

2930
02:59:41,840 --> 02:59:43,720
Speaker 1: from the right. A lot of people on the right

2931
02:59:44,080 --> 02:59:49,440
Speaker 1: questioning the fascist framing, being like, I can't believe Megan.

2932
02:59:49,560 --> 02:59:51,520
Speaker 1: I mean we can talk about the Magan Bcayan tweet.

2933
02:59:51,720 --> 02:59:55,279
Speaker 1: Everyone wants a woman in power until it's the conservative power.

2934
02:59:56,080 --> 02:59:59,960
Speaker 1: This one right bart reporter said quote calling her most

2935
03:00:00,000 --> 03:00:04,480
Speaker 1: Salini just because she's Italian is racist, which is one

2936
03:00:04,480 --> 03:00:06,840
Speaker 1: of the best, one of the best tweets about this.

2937
03:00:07,879 --> 03:00:12,160
Speaker 1: Laverne Spicer said, so everyone calls Melania fascist? Can anyone

2938
03:00:12,200 --> 03:00:14,520
Speaker 1: offer proof of that? And most most of people just

2939
03:00:14,560 --> 03:00:19,400
Speaker 1: replied with videos of her praising Missolini. Um, yeah, will

2940
03:00:19,440 --> 03:00:26,360
Speaker 1: bang you for picture. Lauren Bobbert had the extremely bad

2941
03:00:26,360 --> 03:00:30,359
Speaker 1: tweet This month, Sweden voted for a right wing government.

2942
03:00:30,760 --> 03:00:34,320
Speaker 1: Now Italy voted for a strong right wing government. The

2943
03:00:34,480 --> 03:00:38,160
Speaker 1: entire world is beginning to understand that the woke left

2944
03:00:38,600 --> 03:00:44,279
Speaker 1: does nothing but destroy November eight, November eight is coming

2945
03:00:44,720 --> 03:00:47,879
Speaker 1: and the USA will fix our House and Senate. Let

2946
03:00:47,920 --> 03:00:54,160
Speaker 1: freedom rain Um, great, great prose there um just shouting

2947
03:00:54,160 --> 03:00:56,800
Speaker 1: at Cloud. But I I it is rush. It is

2948
03:00:56,840 --> 03:01:00,240
Speaker 1: actually super messed up to be praising Sweden's new wing

2949
03:01:00,320 --> 03:01:04,720
Speaker 1: government because they're pretty pretty bad. The Wall Street Journal

2950
03:01:04,760 --> 03:01:08,039
Speaker 1: had the great headline Milani is no fascist, but can

2951
03:01:08,160 --> 03:01:13,920
Speaker 1: she revive Italy's economy? Um? Yeah, that's that is perfect,

2952
03:01:14,120 --> 03:01:19,760
Speaker 1: That's that's the classic. Well, I'm very I'm very excited

2953
03:01:19,840 --> 03:01:23,480
Speaker 1: in about eight months when the Italian economy is like

2954
03:01:23,840 --> 03:01:26,480
Speaker 1: it makes the British economy look fucking great when the

2955
03:01:27,200 --> 03:01:34,039
Speaker 1: West there turnaround like can some other random persons save Italy? Yeah,

2956
03:01:34,160 --> 03:01:37,160
Speaker 1: like somebody further to the right, and they'll just continue

2957
03:01:37,200 --> 03:01:39,240
Speaker 1: to be like, well, maybe it's good for the economy.

2958
03:01:39,400 --> 03:01:41,600
Speaker 1: The economy I have running in my Super Mario RPG

2959
03:01:41,800 --> 03:01:45,280
Speaker 1: game is better than the current UK economy. So again,

2960
03:01:45,320 --> 03:01:47,720
Speaker 1: it's not saying more on that, right. A Fox News

2961
03:01:47,720 --> 03:01:50,199
Speaker 1: headline in the lead up to the election read Italy

2962
03:01:50,240 --> 03:01:53,200
Speaker 1: on track to elect first right wing prime minister since

2963
03:01:53,240 --> 03:01:57,680
Speaker 1: World War Two, first female to hold office. So I really,

2964
03:01:57,720 --> 03:01:59,480
Speaker 1: I really do that. This is one thing I really

2965
03:01:59,520 --> 03:02:03,440
Speaker 1: need to get keep people on, like, is fucking Sylvia

2966
03:02:03,440 --> 03:02:06,400
Speaker 1: Berlisconi a joke to you? Like the answer should be yes,

2967
03:02:06,440 --> 03:02:11,160
Speaker 1: but also like come on man like forever. A few

2968
03:02:11,240 --> 03:02:15,600
Speaker 1: days later, another Fox headline read Milani's Italian election win

2969
03:02:16,000 --> 03:02:23,520
Speaker 1: renews spotlight on Europe's continued migrant woes. Great, great, great

2970
03:02:23,560 --> 03:02:26,080
Speaker 1: heading there, that's definitely what we should be focusing on.

2971
03:02:26,560 --> 03:02:29,680
Speaker 1: And so now onto a friend of the pod, Tucker Carlson.

2972
03:02:29,840 --> 03:02:33,440
Speaker 1: So on September twenty six, Tucker Carlson ran a fifteen

2973
03:02:33,480 --> 03:02:38,120
Speaker 1: minute segment titled we live in a fake democracy and

2974
03:02:38,200 --> 03:02:44,280
Speaker 1: there will be a revolution like Italy. So the segment

2975
03:02:44,320 --> 03:02:46,640
Speaker 1: was on the election of Milanni and how she's daring

2976
03:02:46,760 --> 03:02:49,800
Speaker 1: to address the issues that voters really care about but

2977
03:02:49,920 --> 03:02:54,360
Speaker 1: aren't allowed to talk about, like the attacks on the family, immigration,

2978
03:02:54,920 --> 03:02:58,240
Speaker 1: the unpopular climate change policies that are ruining the economy,

2979
03:02:58,520 --> 03:03:02,240
Speaker 1: aren't allowed to talk about. Bill Muscodi has literally been

2980
03:03:02,240 --> 03:03:05,920
Speaker 1: saying whatever the funk comes into his brain for like

2981
03:03:06,080 --> 03:03:08,440
Speaker 1: thirty years at this point. That was that was a

2982
03:03:08,520 --> 03:03:11,240
Speaker 1: big thing of the Tucker segment was that voters have

2983
03:03:11,280 --> 03:03:13,120
Speaker 1: all these issues they care about, but they're not allowed

2984
03:03:13,160 --> 03:03:15,600
Speaker 1: to talk about it. It's actually illegal in some places

2985
03:03:15,640 --> 03:03:18,120
Speaker 1: to talk about this. That's an actual quote from what

2986
03:03:18,160 --> 03:03:22,040
Speaker 1: he's there. Um And obviously Tucker offiscated her lings to

2987
03:03:22,120 --> 03:03:25,960
Speaker 1: Mussolini style fascism while still praising the fascist rhetoric that

2988
03:03:26,000 --> 03:03:29,359
Speaker 1: to Melania espouses. Here is a clip from the segment.

2989
03:03:29,720 --> 03:03:32,200
Speaker 1: She's not the first person to say this, people have

2990
03:03:32,280 --> 03:03:36,440
Speaker 1: said it before, but she's just been rewarded for saying it.

2991
03:03:36,720 --> 03:03:39,840
Speaker 1: That's the point. The population likes it. This is what

2992
03:03:39,879 --> 03:03:43,000
Speaker 1: they actually want. They're not that worried about global warming.

2993
03:03:43,080 --> 03:03:45,600
Speaker 1: They don't want open borders. They think the woke stuff

2994
03:03:45,640 --> 03:03:49,680
Speaker 1: is absurd. They want to say what they think. And

2995
03:03:49,760 --> 03:03:53,800
Speaker 1: now it's obvious because she just won. And so even

2996
03:03:53,840 --> 03:03:56,800
Speaker 1: in this country, the people running and benefiting from a

2997
03:03:56,879 --> 03:04:00,840
Speaker 1: deeply corrupt and doom system are hysterical. Watch the reaction

2998
03:04:00,879 --> 03:04:04,000
Speaker 1: to that. I want to start today by talking about

2999
03:04:04,000 --> 03:04:05,800
Speaker 1: a politician on the right who we should all be

3000
03:04:05,840 --> 03:04:08,920
Speaker 1: worried about, who's on the rise today, A politician who

3001
03:04:08,959 --> 03:04:12,960
Speaker 1: was brushed off accusations of fascism. What separates us from

3002
03:04:13,080 --> 03:04:18,520
Speaker 1: let's say, Italy who elected a fascist. She is from

3003
03:04:18,600 --> 03:04:21,800
Speaker 1: fascist Fruits, a far right political party whose roots go

3004
03:04:21,879 --> 03:04:25,720
Speaker 1: back to post World War two neo fascist party that

3005
03:04:25,760 --> 03:04:31,800
Speaker 1: has its roots in Italian fascism. It's roots in Italian fascism.

3006
03:04:32,240 --> 03:04:35,039
Speaker 1: Define that for us if you would. Joe Scarboro, sorry,

3007
03:04:35,240 --> 03:04:38,440
Speaker 1: you're an idiot, you can't. But the point is fascist

3008
03:04:38,560 --> 03:04:41,879
Speaker 1: means unacceptable. Whatever this chick is saying you're not allowed

3009
03:04:41,920 --> 03:04:46,240
Speaker 1: to agree with. They're very worried that that many Italians

3010
03:04:46,320 --> 03:04:49,920
Speaker 1: do agree with it, So she has to be completely unacceptable.

3011
03:04:50,320 --> 03:04:55,320
Speaker 1: Don't read further. She's a fascist. So yeah, that's that sucks,

3012
03:04:55,360 --> 03:05:00,360
Speaker 1: That's not great. Um I don't need to waste any

3013
03:05:00,400 --> 03:05:02,960
Speaker 1: more time talking about Tucker's segment because it's it's typical

3014
03:05:03,000 --> 03:05:07,560
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson stuff, pretty fascistic, pretty awfu Durremberg at the

3015
03:05:07,640 --> 03:05:12,279
Speaker 1: end of every time. Anyway, um So yeah. Kind of

3016
03:05:12,320 --> 03:05:15,520
Speaker 1: the reaction was as one might expect. American right wing

3017
03:05:15,600 --> 03:05:19,800
Speaker 1: operatives have celebrated her rise to power. For example, Keith Robert's,

3018
03:05:19,840 --> 03:05:22,560
Speaker 1: head of the Heritage Foundation, drew on some of the

3019
03:05:23,200 --> 03:05:27,959
Speaker 1: familiar kind of language in terms of and I'll just

3020
03:05:28,240 --> 03:05:30,119
Speaker 1: I'll just say this. This is what he said about

3021
03:05:30,120 --> 03:05:33,840
Speaker 1: her victory on Twitter. This can be a trend. Conservatives

3022
03:05:33,879 --> 03:05:36,480
Speaker 1: everywhere need to define the choice as to what it

3023
03:05:36,640 --> 03:05:43,080
Speaker 1: is us versus them, everyday people versus globalst elites shown

3024
03:05:43,360 --> 03:05:47,560
Speaker 1: they hate us, so familiar dog whistles and ship. But

3025
03:05:47,600 --> 03:05:49,840
Speaker 1: to kind of close this up, I'm actually gonna do uh,

3026
03:05:49,920 --> 03:05:53,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do a Guy Debord quote, one of our

3027
03:05:53,520 --> 03:05:55,920
Speaker 1: favorite philosophers on this. Can we put a little French

3028
03:05:56,000 --> 03:06:00,360
Speaker 1: on it? Can we have Giva guid Bor quote? Yeah?

3029
03:06:01,920 --> 03:06:05,640
Speaker 1: So he he wrote the situations The Situation's phosopher wrote

3030
03:06:05,640 --> 03:06:10,320
Speaker 1: this in nineteen eight. Italy sums up the social contradictions

3031
03:06:10,360 --> 03:06:14,200
Speaker 1: of the entire world as such. It is a laboratory

3032
03:06:14,600 --> 03:06:22,000
Speaker 1: for international counter revolution. Um. So hilariously they held out

3033
03:06:22,040 --> 03:06:25,680
Speaker 1: longer than the French did. So well, what what What

3034
03:06:25,720 --> 03:06:27,720
Speaker 1: he's trying to say there is that it's a way

3035
03:06:27,760 --> 03:06:31,879
Speaker 1: to try out social change and try out the suppression

3036
03:06:32,120 --> 03:06:35,440
Speaker 1: of like progressive social change. Um. And it's like a

3037
03:06:35,480 --> 03:06:39,039
Speaker 1: model for the rest of Europe. Um. Like it's like

3038
03:06:39,080 --> 03:06:42,520
Speaker 1: it's it's this owns like miniature model that you can

3039
03:06:42,560 --> 03:06:44,320
Speaker 1: try out things and see how they'll react on a

3040
03:06:44,560 --> 03:06:48,160
Speaker 1: on a grounder European political scale. Um And kind of

3041
03:06:48,280 --> 03:06:50,480
Speaker 1: rough in in the in the vein of that, I'm

3042
03:06:50,480 --> 03:06:52,840
Speaker 1: actually gonna do a quote from one of the Washington

3043
03:06:52,879 --> 03:06:56,560
Speaker 1: post articles about what what what one of the better

3044
03:06:56,640 --> 03:07:01,480
Speaker 1: articles about Melani to kind of finish up the types

3045
03:07:01,520 --> 03:07:04,039
Speaker 1: of stuff that I wanted to talk about. So, if

3046
03:07:04,040 --> 03:07:07,280
Speaker 1: there's been one dominant story in Western politics over the

3047
03:07:07,320 --> 03:07:10,720
Speaker 1: past decade, it's that the far right is no longer

3048
03:07:10,840 --> 03:07:14,400
Speaker 1: beyond the pale. Indeed, it has taken over the right

3049
03:07:14,440 --> 03:07:19,000
Speaker 1: wing mainstream in many countries, including and arguably most significantly,

3050
03:07:19,120 --> 03:07:22,240
Speaker 1: the United States. In France, the far right has long

3051
03:07:22,280 --> 03:07:25,240
Speaker 1: been the leading force of the opposition. In Spain, it's

3052
03:07:25,280 --> 03:07:29,080
Speaker 1: also gained ground in Sweden, a party originally founded by

3053
03:07:29,120 --> 03:07:31,640
Speaker 1: Neo Nazis and other right wing extremists will now be

3054
03:07:31,720 --> 03:07:35,320
Speaker 1: the second largest faction in parliament. In Hungary and Poland,

3055
03:07:35,400 --> 03:07:39,720
Speaker 1: the far right is already in power. So just in

3056
03:07:39,840 --> 03:07:44,840
Speaker 1: terms of this overall trend of how people are trying

3057
03:07:44,879 --> 03:07:47,720
Speaker 1: to mainstream far right things and how they're getting more

3058
03:07:47,760 --> 03:07:50,920
Speaker 1: normalized across Europe in the United States here, and the

3059
03:07:50,959 --> 03:07:53,960
Speaker 1: types of asthetics that they're using to gain such ground.

3060
03:07:54,040 --> 03:07:57,160
Speaker 1: Because the Italian voters were not convinced by the left

3061
03:07:57,200 --> 03:08:00,720
Speaker 1: attempts to paint Melani as a reincarnation of Mussolini, the

3062
03:08:00,760 --> 03:08:04,960
Speaker 1: way that she wrapped her fascism in contemporary US style

3063
03:08:05,000 --> 03:08:08,360
Speaker 1: conservatism was convincing, and the left did not offer any

3064
03:08:08,480 --> 03:08:11,520
Speaker 1: viable alternatives to fix the problems that the country's facing.

3065
03:08:11,800 --> 03:08:15,440
Speaker 1: So she got the vote, which was enough to get

3066
03:08:15,480 --> 03:08:18,320
Speaker 1: a majority. So yeah, that's that's kind of That's most

3067
03:08:18,320 --> 03:08:20,920
Speaker 1: of the stuff I have on the Girl Boss Mussolini,

3068
03:08:21,040 --> 03:08:25,360
Speaker 1: Um any any other any other uh comments on how

3069
03:08:25,400 --> 03:08:27,840
Speaker 1: the rights been talking about this, how the liberals have

3070
03:08:27,840 --> 03:08:30,280
Speaker 1: been talking about this, how media has or any anything

3071
03:08:30,320 --> 03:08:35,440
Speaker 1: at all. Before we close up, no, I wish her

3072
03:08:35,959 --> 03:08:40,760
Speaker 1: the best of getting strung up in the street. It's

3073
03:08:40,920 --> 03:08:44,080
Speaker 1: very funny to turn pictures of her upisode down. People

3074
03:08:44,080 --> 03:08:46,240
Speaker 1: will tell you, Whi's not funny. It is funny, you know.

3075
03:08:46,280 --> 03:08:49,480
Speaker 1: I like the seed to be turning into the nant twenties,

3076
03:08:49,520 --> 03:08:52,080
Speaker 1: but like tragedy is farce version of it. But this

3077
03:08:52,160 --> 03:08:55,920
Speaker 1: means we can do it funnier. We can. We can

3078
03:08:55,959 --> 03:08:58,720
Speaker 1: do it funnier. We can all go to Italy wearing

3079
03:08:58,760 --> 03:09:02,640
Speaker 1: Mario costumes. That's right, we can we can do it.

3080
03:09:02,680 --> 03:09:05,040
Speaker 1: We can do it funnier. It's always possible to be

3081
03:09:05,080 --> 03:09:10,080
Speaker 1: more funny. M hmm, that's what we striful. So yeah,

3082
03:09:10,200 --> 03:09:13,240
Speaker 1: I'm still laughing about the Brothers of Italy thing. That's wow,

3083
03:09:13,320 --> 03:09:19,519
Speaker 1: that's pretty funny. Anyway, go have fun fighting anthropomorphic lizards

3084
03:09:19,560 --> 03:09:23,440
Speaker 1: who steal the princess and hang her in a cage

3085
03:09:23,600 --> 03:09:26,080
Speaker 1: and go race around the mushroom Kingdom on your way

3086
03:09:26,120 --> 03:09:29,760
Speaker 1: to save her with your brother. Is how I spend

3087
03:09:29,800 --> 03:09:32,879
Speaker 1: most of my free time in the mushroom Kingdom. In

3088
03:09:32,920 --> 03:09:40,400
Speaker 1: the mushroom Kingdom, jumping on lizards. Yeah, let's let's a

3089
03:09:40,480 --> 03:09:58,880
Speaker 1: go Hello and welcome to It could happen here a

3090
03:09:58,920 --> 03:10:02,879
Speaker 1: podcast about how everything is falling apart, and today we

3091
03:10:02,920 --> 03:10:05,840
Speaker 1: are talking about how the United Kingdom of Great Britain

3092
03:10:05,879 --> 03:10:10,400
Speaker 1: Northern Ireland is continuing to fall apart. And James, can

3093
03:10:10,480 --> 03:10:14,840
Speaker 1: I say, great job, nailed it, Thank you buddy, out

3094
03:10:14,840 --> 03:10:21,280
Speaker 1: of the park. You absolutely just stunning work introducing this podcast. Yeah,

3095
03:10:21,640 --> 03:10:24,280
Speaker 1: I've bought the level of commitment that British people have

3096
03:10:24,360 --> 03:10:27,959
Speaker 1: brought to governing half of the world for centuries. I

3097
03:10:27,959 --> 03:10:30,640
Speaker 1: have my coffee cup that says fuck it and that

3098
03:10:30,840 --> 03:10:33,600
Speaker 1: that's where we're at with this one. That's exactly what

3099
03:10:33,640 --> 03:10:37,280
Speaker 1: we wanted from you. Yeah, I'm incredibly sad about the

3100
03:10:37,320 --> 03:10:39,959
Speaker 1: plight of my home country and continue to be so

3101
03:10:40,080 --> 03:10:43,520
Speaker 1: that I'm going to explain the reason for my sadness

3102
03:10:43,680 --> 03:10:48,800
Speaker 1: to Garrison and Chris and Robert today one of one

3103
03:10:48,800 --> 03:10:53,560
Speaker 1: of the reasons for my sadness. Okay, so what I

3104
03:10:53,560 --> 03:10:56,800
Speaker 1: want to talk about today is Elizabeth trust list Trust.

3105
03:10:56,920 --> 03:10:59,560
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the British cost of living crisis,

3106
03:11:00,080 --> 03:11:02,680
Speaker 1: and I think more broadly, I want to talk about,

3107
03:11:02,720 --> 03:11:07,040
Speaker 1: like how we consent to be governed by people who

3108
03:11:07,080 --> 03:11:11,240
Speaker 1: do not give a single funk about our well being. Well, now, James,

3109
03:11:11,280 --> 03:11:15,320
Speaker 1: that's an experience that only the British have, So that's correct. Yeah,

3110
03:11:15,800 --> 03:11:18,039
Speaker 1: it's known to be not something that much of the

3111
03:11:18,240 --> 03:11:23,600
Speaker 1: colonial periphery experience for centuries, which he thought the monarchy

3112
03:11:23,600 --> 03:11:28,240
Speaker 1: away beat beat the monarchy Garrison. That's a bold we

3113
03:11:28,480 --> 03:11:33,240
Speaker 1: garrison from a Canadian. Yeah, that's right. Your people trying

3114
03:11:33,280 --> 03:11:36,720
Speaker 1: to stop it. Yeah, that's all we did was invade

3115
03:11:36,760 --> 03:11:38,680
Speaker 1: you a couple of times. I don't think you can

3116
03:11:38,800 --> 03:11:42,200
Speaker 1: sneak in there. And then the ambiguity of accents by

3117
03:11:42,360 --> 03:11:45,320
Speaker 1: us passport is on the way, on the way, on

3118
03:11:45,360 --> 03:11:49,720
Speaker 1: the way. Yeah, so was the Queen of England's Yeah,

3119
03:11:50,240 --> 03:11:53,039
Speaker 1: trust going to take that away, King Charles, it's going

3120
03:11:53,080 --> 03:11:55,280
Speaker 1: to make it not allowed. I do have to get

3121
03:11:55,320 --> 03:11:57,480
Speaker 1: a new Canadian passport with the king on it now,

3122
03:11:57,560 --> 03:12:02,240
Speaker 1: which sucks. That was the most I guess we all

3123
03:12:02,320 --> 03:12:04,680
Speaker 1: learned a lot because it's been so long since you

3124
03:12:04,760 --> 03:12:07,519
Speaker 1: had a change of monarch. But the fact that everyone

3125
03:12:07,640 --> 03:12:10,520
Speaker 1: has to stop using the money and everyone has to

3126
03:12:10,560 --> 03:12:18,480
Speaker 1: skip is fucking absurd. This is the worst political system

3127
03:12:18,520 --> 03:12:22,600
Speaker 1: I've ever heard of. Just wait, because it's gonna get

3128
03:12:22,640 --> 03:12:26,720
Speaker 1: even more kind of Okay, Chris, you live in Chicago. Yeah,

3129
03:12:26,760 --> 03:12:29,800
Speaker 1: but here's here's the thing. Here's the thing right in Chicago, right,

3130
03:12:29,959 --> 03:12:33,680
Speaker 1: everyone everyone like like too, and in the core of

3131
03:12:33,760 --> 03:12:37,280
Speaker 1: their being they know that the people who ruled him

3132
03:12:37,320 --> 03:12:41,199
Speaker 1: are robbing them. Everyone in Britain actually genuinely like wants

3133
03:12:41,240 --> 03:12:44,240
Speaker 1: to be like this. No one in Chicago wants any

3134
03:12:44,280 --> 03:12:46,000
Speaker 1: of the people in Chicago who rule us to be

3135
03:12:46,080 --> 03:12:49,840
Speaker 1: ruling us. Right. Everyone in Britain is like pro like

3136
03:12:50,400 --> 03:12:52,720
Speaker 1: they want to have to throw all their money away

3137
03:12:52,920 --> 03:12:55,480
Speaker 1: because some fucking ninety year old in a hat died.

3138
03:12:57,000 --> 03:13:02,720
Speaker 1: Is an incomprehensible level of just outstanding. Yeah, it's a

3139
03:13:02,720 --> 03:13:05,360
Speaker 1: marvelous country. There's nothing wrong with it. It will continue

3140
03:13:05,400 --> 03:13:09,040
Speaker 1: to be marvelous. And the lowest ten percent of income

3141
03:13:09,080 --> 03:13:12,440
Speaker 1: people in Britain now enjoy a quality of life which

3142
03:13:12,480 --> 03:13:15,400
Speaker 1: is substantially lower than that same income bracket in Slovenia,

3143
03:13:16,120 --> 03:13:21,760
Speaker 1: which looking at the economic powerhouse of Slovenia, I just

3144
03:13:21,800 --> 03:13:24,280
Speaker 1: want to say, we do not deserve a better quality

3145
03:13:24,320 --> 03:13:28,960
Speaker 1: of living than the people of Slovenia actually rules. Yeah,

3146
03:13:29,000 --> 03:13:31,879
Speaker 1: it does great places. Yeah, it's a really nice place.

3147
03:13:32,240 --> 03:13:34,640
Speaker 1: She takes about two hours to cross. But it's a

3148
03:13:34,680 --> 03:13:36,680
Speaker 1: great country. Right, you can ride your bike across it.

3149
03:13:36,760 --> 03:13:38,600
Speaker 1: But that's great, that's what you want to do. What's

3150
03:13:38,680 --> 03:13:41,160
Speaker 1: what's happening here is that Maoice Liz Trust is like

3151
03:13:41,320 --> 03:13:45,960
Speaker 1: very slowly returning all the brids of the countryside. She yeah,

3152
03:13:46,000 --> 03:13:49,080
Speaker 1: she's she's doing a cultural revolution. And let's talk about

3153
03:13:49,120 --> 03:13:52,720
Speaker 1: Mauice Liz Trust. So her parents are actually a long

3154
03:13:52,760 --> 03:13:54,480
Speaker 1: way to her left. There was a thing a little

3155
03:13:54,480 --> 03:13:57,200
Speaker 1: while ago where her dad refused to campaign for her

3156
03:13:57,680 --> 03:14:00,240
Speaker 1: when she ran for a seat as a Conservative, which

3157
03:14:00,280 --> 03:14:03,440
Speaker 1: is based critical support for liszt Us his dad. Her

3158
03:14:03,480 --> 03:14:06,000
Speaker 1: mom also ran as a lib dem which is not

3159
03:14:06,120 --> 03:14:09,080
Speaker 1: exactly like the Liberal Democrats are not exactly like the

3160
03:14:09,120 --> 03:14:11,240
Speaker 1: party that are going to liberate the working class through

3161
03:14:11,879 --> 03:14:15,200
Speaker 1: glorious revolution. But it's still pretty funny to have your

3162
03:14:15,240 --> 03:14:18,440
Speaker 1: mom running for a different party than you and objectively amusing.

3163
03:14:19,640 --> 03:14:23,720
Speaker 1: She was born in Oxford. Her parents her mother's a teacher,

3164
03:14:23,959 --> 03:14:26,880
Speaker 1: her dad is an academic. I think it leads her

3165
03:14:26,959 --> 03:14:31,600
Speaker 1: dad's he's a mathematician. What a nerd? God damn it.

3166
03:14:32,200 --> 03:14:34,160
Speaker 1: Her dad is not the nerd here. Her dad is

3167
03:14:34,600 --> 03:14:37,840
Speaker 1: the best. Trust as far as I can tell, it's

3168
03:14:38,080 --> 03:14:41,120
Speaker 1: it's Liz who were worried about. She described her parents

3169
03:14:41,360 --> 03:14:43,640
Speaker 1: as being to the left of labor, which is not hard.

3170
03:14:44,600 --> 03:14:48,240
Speaker 1: Labor just exists to kind of these days really to

3171
03:14:48,280 --> 03:14:52,039
Speaker 1: have the pretensive opposition right. They've deliberately purged the left

3172
03:14:52,160 --> 03:14:55,440
Speaker 1: from labor after two thousand and nineteen, and they exist

3173
03:14:55,480 --> 03:14:58,480
Speaker 1: for Keir Starmer to say I broadly support this terrible

3174
03:14:58,520 --> 03:15:02,840
Speaker 1: nearliberal policy but and then say something completely ineffectual. And

3175
03:15:02,879 --> 03:15:05,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure he will be Prime Minister soon and nothing

3176
03:15:05,840 --> 03:15:07,400
Speaker 1: will change. And I think that Liz Trust has done

3177
03:15:07,400 --> 03:15:10,560
Speaker 1: and is doing, will be walked back because Britain doesn't

3178
03:15:10,560 --> 03:15:13,240
Speaker 1: have an effective left opposition in Parliament. It does in

3179
03:15:13,440 --> 03:15:15,640
Speaker 1: society and in the streets. And we'll see there are

3180
03:15:15,640 --> 03:15:18,720
Speaker 1: lots of movements. Our parliament is a fast and continues

3181
03:15:18,720 --> 03:15:20,200
Speaker 1: to be a fast and it's lots of dudes who

3182
03:15:20,200 --> 03:15:23,680
Speaker 1: went to the same education institutions making this funny kind

3183
03:15:23,680 --> 03:15:26,359
Speaker 1: of noise that there are more diverse people in parliament.

3184
03:15:26,400 --> 03:15:28,800
Speaker 1: But I'm sure people have seen videos of the British

3185
03:15:28,800 --> 03:15:33,920
Speaker 1: Parliament right and everyone was like when someone sounds just

3186
03:15:34,000 --> 03:15:39,279
Speaker 1: like that, yeah that thanks Danial Americans who don't understand

3187
03:15:39,680 --> 03:15:43,600
Speaker 1: entirely how British educational culture works. The fancy schools that

3188
03:15:43,640 --> 03:15:46,600
Speaker 1: they go to, they're like Hogwarts if you replaced like

3189
03:15:46,720 --> 03:15:49,640
Speaker 1: the magic with kids beating each other in the shower

3190
03:15:49,879 --> 03:15:54,600
Speaker 1: and yeah yeah, with the repressed sexuality and yeah yeah, violence,

3191
03:15:55,160 --> 03:15:58,080
Speaker 1: bullying and being picked on because you're the poorest kid

3192
03:15:58,080 --> 03:15:59,800
Speaker 1: in a school ful. So actually it is. It is

3193
03:15:59,840 --> 03:16:05,520
Speaker 1: a like Harry Potters, quite a bit like Harry Yeah yeah, yeah,

3194
03:16:05,520 --> 03:16:08,920
Speaker 1: there are still turfs. It's very disappointing. So, talking of

3195
03:16:09,080 --> 03:16:12,160
Speaker 1: educational institutions, trust went to ox It right, she went

3196
03:16:12,160 --> 03:16:14,080
Speaker 1: to Merchant. I went to talk to two. I didn't

3197
03:16:14,080 --> 03:16:17,119
Speaker 1: get to Merchant. That's a better off college. I went

3198
03:16:17,160 --> 03:16:20,080
Speaker 1: to college which is renowned for being poor. For what

3199
03:16:20,240 --> 03:16:22,440
Speaker 1: that's worth. Within Oxford colleges which were all full of

3200
03:16:22,520 --> 03:16:26,359
Speaker 1: rich people doing rich people's stuff. She read Ppe Politics

3201
03:16:26,400 --> 03:16:28,840
Speaker 1: philosophy and economics, which I don't think you can really

3202
03:16:28,920 --> 03:16:32,959
Speaker 1: do as a degree in the US. Right, what is

3203
03:16:33,000 --> 03:16:37,360
Speaker 1: that politics, philosophy and economic Yeah, yeah, it's called PP

3204
03:16:38,120 --> 03:16:43,520
Speaker 1: three made up things? Well, what do you say? Other

3205
03:16:43,640 --> 03:16:46,160
Speaker 1: other degrees, on the other hand, are real and tangible

3206
03:16:46,320 --> 03:16:49,240
Speaker 1: and of course in the physical space where you can

3207
03:16:49,280 --> 03:16:52,840
Speaker 1: touch them. Everyone knows that. Yeah, it's true. Apart from

3208
03:16:52,879 --> 03:16:56,119
Speaker 1: pp PP is so like I went to talk for two.

3209
03:16:56,200 --> 03:16:58,680
Speaker 1: I took Modern History and Politics, which is way cooler

3210
03:16:58,840 --> 03:17:03,000
Speaker 1: and better in every way. But the PPE kids such

3211
03:17:03,040 --> 03:17:06,760
Speaker 1: so that people understand. A vast number of British prime

3212
03:17:06,760 --> 03:17:10,440
Speaker 1: ministers have taken PP as as their undergraduate degree. It's

3213
03:17:10,480 --> 03:17:13,440
Speaker 1: like the Kingmaker of degrees and you take it because

3214
03:17:13,440 --> 03:17:17,160
Speaker 1: you're an insufferable, fucking dorc who wants to be prime

3215
03:17:17,160 --> 03:17:21,360
Speaker 1: minister or like work for the British government in some way, right,

3216
03:17:21,400 --> 03:17:23,640
Speaker 1: Like it is this like kingo maker one of the

3217
03:17:23,760 --> 03:17:26,600
Speaker 1: prime minister It looks like such a good job. Yeah,

3218
03:17:26,680 --> 03:17:30,080
Speaker 1: they last a long time. They have universally great approval

3219
03:17:30,160 --> 03:17:31,920
Speaker 1: ratings and to be fair, they do just go on

3220
03:17:31,959 --> 03:17:34,000
Speaker 1: to grift to share a ton of money like it's

3221
03:17:34,040 --> 03:17:36,000
Speaker 1: not and they don't have to do it for like

3222
03:17:36,440 --> 03:17:39,280
Speaker 1: a fixed period of time, like American presidents do. So

3223
03:17:39,360 --> 03:17:41,680
Speaker 1: that's nice. They can just have a bunch of parties

3224
03:17:41,680 --> 03:17:43,680
Speaker 1: for their friends in the lockdown and their leave, which

3225
03:17:43,720 --> 03:17:46,360
Speaker 1: is more or less what Boris Johnson did. And I

3226
03:17:46,400 --> 03:17:49,440
Speaker 1: don't I don't expect Liz to be Prime Minister for long,

3227
03:17:49,600 --> 03:17:53,360
Speaker 1: but it's what she's doing and what she has already

3228
03:17:53,400 --> 03:17:56,760
Speaker 1: sort of done that I think it's of interest here. Certainly,

3229
03:17:56,840 --> 03:17:59,199
Speaker 1: she was also president before we get off her university

3230
03:17:59,240 --> 03:18:06,760
Speaker 1: time at the Oxford University Liberal Democrats and so oh yeah, yeah,

3231
03:18:06,760 --> 03:18:11,320
Speaker 1: great stuff. The so like she's gradually drifted to the right,

3232
03:18:11,480 --> 03:18:14,920
Speaker 1: which you know, what are we? What we she's grifted

3233
03:18:14,920 --> 03:18:16,720
Speaker 1: to the right. You know, the lib Dems were a

3234
03:18:16,760 --> 03:18:21,760
Speaker 1: little bit more left then, but Labor was very neoliberal

3235
03:18:21,879 --> 03:18:24,680
Speaker 1: in the nineties right when she was in when she

3236
03:18:24,760 --> 03:18:27,080
Speaker 1: was in Parliament, so sometimes the Lib Dems provided something

3237
03:18:27,120 --> 03:18:30,400
Speaker 1: of a left opposition if you remember, like Tony Blair

3238
03:18:30,520 --> 03:18:35,040
Speaker 1: New Labor. It was just kind of bold neoliberal, like

3239
03:18:35,280 --> 03:18:38,560
Speaker 1: shameless near liberalism. Right now, Tony Blair is the one

3240
03:18:38,600 --> 03:18:41,640
Speaker 1: who was played by Hugh Grant, right is he the

3241
03:18:41,680 --> 03:18:43,800
Speaker 1: one of his He the inspiration for love? Actually, I

3242
03:18:44,440 --> 03:18:47,600
Speaker 1: was assuming because Tony Blair was the only British politician

3243
03:18:47,640 --> 03:18:50,640
Speaker 1: I could name as a child. Okay, must have been right,

3244
03:18:50,879 --> 03:18:54,879
Speaker 1: because Tony Blair is completely devoid of charisma, and the

3245
03:18:54,959 --> 03:18:57,800
Speaker 1: one thing that that Hugh Grant character has is charisma,

3246
03:18:57,879 --> 03:18:59,760
Speaker 1: So maybe maybe he does kind of. I mean, they're

3247
03:18:59,760 --> 03:19:03,200
Speaker 1: all pint men. They are a white man that is

3248
03:19:03,240 --> 03:19:06,440
Speaker 1: a very white movie. He looks like him. But then

3249
03:19:06,480 --> 03:19:09,240
Speaker 1: that's not exactly a remarkable thing, is it in sort

3250
03:19:09,280 --> 03:19:13,840
Speaker 1: of homogeneous British ruling class that we have so trust

3251
03:19:13,959 --> 03:19:16,640
Speaker 1: has gone through like being Secretary of State for Justice,

3252
03:19:16,680 --> 03:19:20,760
Speaker 1: through being Lord Chancellor, through being Foreign Secretary. Okay, Lord

3253
03:19:20,840 --> 03:19:23,760
Speaker 1: Chancellors are pretty cool sounding title. I gotta give it

3254
03:19:23,760 --> 03:19:27,160
Speaker 1: to him first. That's like Star Wars ship did you do?

3255
03:19:27,200 --> 03:19:35,320
Speaker 1: They have a shadow Lord Chancellor to the thing that is,

3256
03:19:35,360 --> 03:19:37,560
Speaker 1: they pick the terms to make it all sound cool,

3257
03:19:37,600 --> 03:19:40,560
Speaker 1: like when whenever one of like your parliamentary coalitions collapse,

3258
03:19:40,600 --> 03:19:44,240
Speaker 1: they're like the government has fallen. It just makes it

3259
03:19:44,280 --> 03:19:46,560
Speaker 1: all sound like it's so much cooler than it is.

3260
03:19:47,080 --> 03:19:49,280
Speaker 1: It does lend an air of shakespeare An epic where

3261
03:19:49,280 --> 03:19:51,680
Speaker 1: it's one of these is these seventeen people who all

3262
03:19:51,760 --> 03:19:54,039
Speaker 1: went to the same schools and read the same Telegraph

3263
03:19:54,080 --> 03:19:56,720
Speaker 1: newspaper columnists have disagree with each other from minor point

3264
03:19:56,760 --> 03:19:59,480
Speaker 1: and will shortly be reconstituting their alliance in a slightly

3265
03:19:59,520 --> 03:20:02,240
Speaker 1: different way. Yeah, but it sounds like people are fighting

3266
03:20:02,320 --> 03:20:06,520
Speaker 1: each other with machetes. It has a game of thrones

3267
03:20:06,640 --> 03:20:11,959
Speaker 1: beheading via Maybe that's where this is heading. Who knows?

3268
03:20:12,000 --> 03:20:14,240
Speaker 1: She I think if people had heard of Lives Trust

3269
03:20:14,280 --> 03:20:17,160
Speaker 1: until she became Prime Minister, it was probably from her

3270
03:20:17,640 --> 03:20:21,800
Speaker 1: really wonderful pork market speech, which if you haven't watched

3271
03:20:21,800 --> 03:20:23,680
Speaker 1: the pork market speech, it is a study and when

3272
03:20:23,720 --> 03:20:27,640
Speaker 1: you should and shouldn't pause for applause, Robert, have you

3273
03:20:27,680 --> 03:20:31,480
Speaker 1: seen this pork markets? No? Okay, what is a fucking

3274
03:20:31,520 --> 03:20:35,440
Speaker 1: pork market? It's so funny. In December, I'll be in

3275
03:20:35,520 --> 03:20:42,800
Speaker 1: Beijing opening up new pork markets. What the fund is

3276
03:20:42,840 --> 03:20:49,360
Speaker 1: this ship? She's not a real person, she's it's it's

3277
03:20:49,400 --> 03:20:51,200
Speaker 1: reminiscent of like when you take a fish out of

3278
03:20:51,200 --> 03:20:54,080
Speaker 1: water and it moves its lips but makes no coherent noise,

3279
03:20:54,640 --> 03:20:58,400
Speaker 1: an alien trying to pretend to be humid. Yeah, it's

3280
03:20:58,560 --> 03:21:01,840
Speaker 1: it's this is this is a great leader of our people,

3281
03:21:02,120 --> 03:21:07,680
Speaker 1: and it's the uncanny value of post craft Ian and

3282
03:21:07,720 --> 03:21:11,600
Speaker 1: it's in its unsettling nous. Yeah yeah, what's what's what's

3283
03:21:11,600 --> 03:21:13,760
Speaker 1: happening here. What we're seeing is that this is this

3284
03:21:13,840 --> 03:21:16,240
Speaker 1: is the this is the final result of affirmative action

3285
03:21:16,280 --> 03:21:18,280
Speaker 1: from white people. Yes, we're going to get into that.

3286
03:21:18,360 --> 03:21:20,000
Speaker 1: This is why, this is why she has this job.

3287
03:21:20,080 --> 03:21:22,840
Speaker 1: She she she benefited from affermative action from white people.

3288
03:21:24,000 --> 03:21:28,280
Speaker 1: Other examples of this include Destiny and yeah, yeah, you

3289
03:21:28,280 --> 03:21:31,280
Speaker 1: get the same kind of person every single time, same

3290
03:21:31,320 --> 03:21:33,560
Speaker 1: same right, like Destiny and the Prime Minister of the

3291
03:21:33,640 --> 03:21:37,360
Speaker 1: UK and yeah, so like she becomes prime minister. And

3292
03:21:37,400 --> 03:21:39,920
Speaker 1: it's worth noting that, like, the way you become prime

3293
03:21:39,959 --> 03:21:41,920
Speaker 1: minister in the UK is different to the way you

3294
03:21:42,000 --> 03:21:44,080
Speaker 1: become president in the US. Right, you are the leader

3295
03:21:44,160 --> 03:21:46,800
Speaker 1: of the majority party in parliament, or of the coalition

3296
03:21:46,840 --> 03:21:49,080
Speaker 1: that controls the majority of the votes in parliament. So

3297
03:21:49,480 --> 03:21:52,440
Speaker 1: she becomes prime Minister not through a vote of the people,

3298
03:21:52,760 --> 03:21:55,360
Speaker 1: but through a vote of the members of the Conservative Party.

3299
03:21:55,480 --> 03:21:58,360
Speaker 1: And you can understand as like people whose dogs have

3300
03:21:58,440 --> 03:22:02,880
Speaker 1: girls names and whose daughters have dogs names. I think

3301
03:22:02,920 --> 03:22:05,200
Speaker 1: that is I think that's a trash future bit. I

3302
03:22:05,200 --> 03:22:07,600
Speaker 1: don't know where it came from, but it explains some perfectly.

3303
03:22:08,440 --> 03:22:12,120
Speaker 1: So these people got together and they she ran against

3304
03:22:12,200 --> 03:22:16,640
Speaker 1: Richie Sunac right and who is eminently more capable of

3305
03:22:16,680 --> 03:22:20,280
Speaker 1: doing the fashion neoliberal ship that they want to do,

3306
03:22:20,959 --> 03:22:23,720
Speaker 1: as are many other people of color within their party.

3307
03:22:24,120 --> 03:22:27,680
Speaker 1: But above all things, they are racist, right above even

3308
03:22:27,800 --> 03:22:32,200
Speaker 1: doing this kind of speed run extraction from the British economy,

3309
03:22:32,240 --> 03:22:35,440
Speaker 1: they are still racists. They're they're they're fine with having

3310
03:22:35,560 --> 03:22:38,880
Speaker 1: people of color in in positions in the hierarchy, right,

3311
03:22:38,879 --> 03:22:41,520
Speaker 1: there's something that Britain established through hundreds of years of empire.

3312
03:22:42,440 --> 03:22:45,080
Speaker 1: But the idea, the idea of having someone in a

3313
03:22:45,160 --> 03:22:49,200
Speaker 1: leadership position is is fundamentally anathema to the Conservative Party.

3314
03:22:49,320 --> 03:22:53,480
Speaker 1: So instead they picked kind of Liz Trust to just

3315
03:22:53,480 --> 03:22:57,160
Speaker 1: flap her lips around and talk about pork markets. Right,

3316
03:22:57,879 --> 03:23:01,840
Speaker 1: So that's how we get Liz Trust as Prime Minister.

3317
03:23:01,920 --> 03:23:04,440
Speaker 1: So no one per se votes for Lizz Trust. No

3318
03:23:04,520 --> 03:23:06,680
Speaker 1: one even per se votes for like the Liz Trust

3319
03:23:06,879 --> 03:23:10,360
Speaker 1: a genda that we're seeing now, right, and I think

3320
03:23:10,400 --> 03:23:13,880
Speaker 1: that's really important. And in her acceptance speech she talks

3321
03:23:13,920 --> 03:23:16,879
Speaker 1: to Boris Johnson. She said, you're you're admired from Kiev

3322
03:23:16,959 --> 03:23:22,360
Speaker 1: to Carlisle. Yeah, she says, yeah, okay, first of all,

3323
03:23:24,760 --> 03:23:28,480
Speaker 1: bizz Absolutely, the thing I know about Boris Johnson is

3324
03:23:28,520 --> 03:23:31,080
Speaker 1: that he looks like Donald Trump. If Trump didn't have

3325
03:23:31,200 --> 03:23:34,680
Speaker 1: his ship quite so together, Yes, yeah, Donald Trump. His

3326
03:23:34,760 --> 03:23:36,440
Speaker 1: mom didn't tell him to comb his hair and tuck

3327
03:23:36,480 --> 03:23:38,360
Speaker 1: his shirt and before he went to school. Yeah, if

3328
03:23:38,360 --> 03:23:40,920
Speaker 1: Donald Trump couldn't have paid paid a half people like

3329
03:23:41,040 --> 03:23:43,280
Speaker 1: check him before he walks out the door, that's how

3330
03:23:43,320 --> 03:23:45,960
Speaker 1: he would look. Yeah, yes, exactly. If he fell over

3331
03:23:46,000 --> 03:23:47,920
Speaker 1: in a wind tunnel, he would look like Boris Johnson.

3332
03:23:51,400 --> 03:23:53,920
Speaker 1: Boris Johnson a guy so fucking rich he's never had

3333
03:23:53,959 --> 03:23:56,959
Speaker 1: to comb his hair. Stop being prime minister because of

3334
03:23:57,040 --> 03:24:00,200
Speaker 1: these scandals, right, these sleeve scandals about them having teas

3335
03:24:00,280 --> 03:24:02,240
Speaker 1: during lockdown. More or less, that was what destroyed him,

3336
03:24:02,280 --> 03:24:05,440
Speaker 1: not any of his terrible policies, his bigoted bullshit. Him

3337
03:24:05,440 --> 03:24:08,000
Speaker 1: writing up ed saying that the problem with us was

3338
03:24:08,040 --> 03:24:09,879
Speaker 1: not that we were in charge of Africa, but that

3339
03:24:09,959 --> 03:24:14,160
Speaker 1: we're not anymore. God, Yeah, this is a type of

3340
03:24:14,200 --> 03:24:18,400
Speaker 1: guy who exists and can become Prime minister. Like people

3341
03:24:18,440 --> 03:24:22,000
Speaker 1: don't understand. I think, um, British, the British right is

3342
03:24:22,080 --> 03:24:24,080
Speaker 1: very different from the American right, and I think we're

3343
03:24:24,080 --> 03:24:25,880
Speaker 1: going to get into that. And also a guy who

3344
03:24:25,879 --> 03:24:28,640
Speaker 1: famously just like pulverized a small child on a trip

3345
03:24:28,680 --> 03:24:32,440
Speaker 1: to Japan. Play You don't need to say the things

3346
03:24:32,480 --> 03:24:37,080
Speaker 1: that he did that are rad He he did finally

3347
03:24:37,120 --> 03:24:39,720
Speaker 1: discover the actual third world British politics, which is that

3348
03:24:40,240 --> 03:24:43,000
Speaker 1: if you have fun in a way that someone else

3349
03:24:43,040 --> 03:24:47,080
Speaker 1: can't have fun, they will destroy you. Yes, the mere

3350
03:24:47,080 --> 03:24:49,320
Speaker 1: British person, but your act of a British person seeing

3351
03:24:49,320 --> 03:24:54,600
Speaker 1: another person having any joy whatsoever, like just like the

3352
03:24:55,120 --> 03:24:57,959
Speaker 1: so a switch flips in their brain and they just

3353
03:24:58,000 --> 03:25:02,160
Speaker 1: turned into like Brits but worse. This is yes, so

3354
03:25:02,240 --> 03:25:04,440
Speaker 1: this is like there are basically two ways that a

3355
03:25:04,440 --> 03:25:07,760
Speaker 1: British political party can be right. One is that they

3356
03:25:08,080 --> 03:25:12,000
Speaker 1: enjoy themselves while they're plundering the institution to still remain

3357
03:25:12,000 --> 03:25:13,560
Speaker 1: in the United Kingdom. And the other one is that

3358
03:25:13,600 --> 03:25:16,320
Speaker 1: they are like magnastically abstemious while they're doing it right.

3359
03:25:16,360 --> 03:25:19,240
Speaker 1: And Labor tend to be the obstnious ones, uh, and

3360
03:25:19,280 --> 03:25:20,879
Speaker 1: the Tories tend to be the ones who drink the

3361
03:25:20,879 --> 03:25:23,080
Speaker 1: poor and have the lockdown parties and have like literal

3362
03:25:23,160 --> 03:25:25,600
Speaker 1: karaoke events when they're asking people not to go to

3363
03:25:25,600 --> 03:25:28,840
Speaker 1: their grandparents funerals and labor tend to be the ones

3364
03:25:28,840 --> 03:25:31,520
Speaker 1: who wring their hands to go oh no and then

3365
03:25:31,720 --> 03:25:34,080
Speaker 1: fundamentally do the same ship. Right, that that is a

3366
03:25:34,080 --> 03:25:37,959
Speaker 1: different Chris is entirely correct that that is the thing

3367
03:25:38,040 --> 03:25:41,039
Speaker 1: that irritates British people most, right, And maybe we'll just

3368
03:25:41,040 --> 03:25:44,880
Speaker 1: talk about this right now. It's increasingly like it's not

3369
03:25:44,959 --> 03:25:47,840
Speaker 1: the material conditions that bring down British governments, because material

3370
03:25:47,840 --> 03:25:50,039
Speaker 1: conditions are getting worse and have been getting worse since

3371
03:25:50,040 --> 03:25:56,000
Speaker 1: we started this this austerity stuff in it's these stupid scandals, right,

3372
03:25:56,080 --> 03:25:59,560
Speaker 1: these these personal scandals which yes, normally involve them having

3373
03:25:59,600 --> 03:26:02,760
Speaker 1: too much fun when they're supposed to be pretending to

3374
03:26:02,760 --> 03:26:05,520
Speaker 1: be serious while they steal all the all the things

3375
03:26:05,600 --> 03:26:08,520
Speaker 1: that still remain in Britain. And I want to talk

3376
03:26:08,520 --> 03:26:10,440
Speaker 1: about a little later. So yeah, she said Boris Johnson

3377
03:26:10,520 --> 03:26:12,800
Speaker 1: was amoved from Keith to Carlole. He's not. That's why

3378
03:26:12,800 --> 03:26:16,680
Speaker 1: he's not Prime minister anymore. Everyone hates him. And also

3379
03:26:17,240 --> 03:26:19,120
Speaker 1: I don't think she's been to Carlos because I got

3380
03:26:19,120 --> 03:26:22,240
Speaker 1: family who lived there and not everyone loves Borrows Johnson there,

3381
03:26:23,160 --> 03:26:27,000
Speaker 1: and I'm sure not in Kiev either. But so the

3382
03:26:27,120 --> 03:26:29,840
Speaker 1: UK has been having this cost of living crisis since

3383
03:26:29,840 --> 03:26:32,800
Speaker 1: the economy reopened in one right, since the end of lockdown.

3384
03:26:33,640 --> 03:26:35,920
Speaker 1: What this cost of living crisis is, what cost of

3385
03:26:35,959 --> 03:26:38,680
Speaker 1: living goes DoD is generally is that when the goods

3386
03:26:38,680 --> 03:26:41,680
Speaker 1: that you need to buy to exist arising more quickly

3387
03:26:41,720 --> 03:26:44,960
Speaker 1: than the wages you get paid for working. Now, some

3388
03:26:45,040 --> 03:26:46,880
Speaker 1: of these causes a globe or Right, we have this

3389
03:26:46,920 --> 03:26:50,160
Speaker 1: inflation issue in the US too, but the UK has

3390
03:26:50,200 --> 03:26:54,360
Speaker 1: compounded this by leaving the European Union, that creating massive

3391
03:26:54,800 --> 03:26:58,200
Speaker 1: labor labor shortages and these repeated bumps in the energy

3392
03:26:58,240 --> 03:27:01,640
Speaker 1: price cap? Right, which is the limit that an average

3393
03:27:01,680 --> 03:27:06,520
Speaker 1: family should pay for their energy consumption. It's not it's

3394
03:27:06,560 --> 03:27:10,280
Speaker 1: not a hard stop. It's not a limit on how

3395
03:27:10,360 --> 03:27:13,520
Speaker 1: much you definitely will pay, but it's a limit on

3396
03:27:13,560 --> 03:27:16,480
Speaker 1: how much the average family should pay. Right, and so

3397
03:27:17,480 --> 03:27:20,760
Speaker 1: trust comes to power in the context of skyrocketing energy

3398
03:27:20,840 --> 03:27:25,080
Speaker 1: rates for British consumers. Gas is used for heating most

3399
03:27:25,080 --> 03:27:29,880
Speaker 1: homes in the UK, and it's increased in price since

3400
03:27:30,520 --> 03:27:34,760
Speaker 1: before the coronavirus times. Despite the fact that most British

3401
03:27:34,760 --> 03:27:38,560
Speaker 1: people don't pay spot prices for gas and pay the

3402
03:27:38,600 --> 03:27:43,600
Speaker 1: going market rate for gas, there's a serious crisis and affordability.

3403
03:27:43,680 --> 03:27:48,240
Speaker 1: Now it was looking like the gas bills are going

3404
03:27:48,240 --> 03:27:50,240
Speaker 1: to go up, into the average gas bill for the

3405
03:27:50,280 --> 03:27:52,560
Speaker 1: average British person is going to go up more than

3406
03:27:53,040 --> 03:27:55,800
Speaker 1: it now is because Trust has has announced some capping

3407
03:27:55,800 --> 03:27:57,680
Speaker 1: of spot rates. We're going to get into why that

3408
03:27:57,840 --> 03:28:01,560
Speaker 1: isn't as great as its sound. The big issue here

3409
03:28:01,680 --> 03:28:04,920
Speaker 1: is that Britain doesn't have a nationalized provider, right. It's

3410
03:28:05,240 --> 03:28:08,720
Speaker 1: privatized its energy. Great, it's privatized its energy generation, and

3411
03:28:09,200 --> 03:28:13,520
Speaker 1: it ends up with this bizarre situation where one of

3412
03:28:13,560 --> 03:28:15,680
Speaker 1: the one of the people you can buy energy off

3413
03:28:15,680 --> 03:28:17,320
Speaker 1: and often you don't have a choice, right depending on

3414
03:28:17,320 --> 03:28:22,400
Speaker 1: where you are, is the French national energy company. That

3415
03:28:22,480 --> 03:28:24,960
Speaker 1: makes sense, Yeah, it makes perfect sense, right, it's it's

3416
03:28:24,959 --> 03:28:27,760
Speaker 1: great and one of the notables consequent to this is

3417
03:28:27,760 --> 03:28:30,080
Speaker 1: a gas price who've gone up. France caps the prices

3418
03:28:30,120 --> 03:28:32,879
Speaker 1: that consumers can pay Britain allows them to charge a

3419
03:28:32,879 --> 03:28:36,720
Speaker 1: lot more so British people at this it's as a

3420
03:28:36,800 --> 03:28:38,400
Speaker 1: rule one thing that Britain. You would telling me that

3421
03:28:38,440 --> 03:28:42,200
Speaker 1: France finally won that long year and saying that we

3422
03:28:42,280 --> 03:28:45,520
Speaker 1: have been owned by the French. And if that doesn't

3423
03:28:45,520 --> 03:28:47,600
Speaker 1: bring down the Conservative government, I don't know what will

3424
03:28:47,640 --> 03:28:50,080
Speaker 1: because there's one thing British people dislike its French people.

3425
03:28:50,640 --> 03:28:54,000
Speaker 1: And and so yeah, Britain is now subsidizing energy rates

3426
03:28:54,000 --> 03:28:56,480
Speaker 1: for French consumers, which is great having just left the

3427
03:28:56,480 --> 03:29:01,440
Speaker 1: European Union, because we are incredibly xenophobic as a nation

3428
03:29:01,480 --> 03:29:05,000
Speaker 1: as it turns out. And people may have seen this

3429
03:29:05,640 --> 03:29:08,879
Speaker 1: UK TV show called This Morning where they did a

3430
03:29:08,879 --> 03:29:10,920
Speaker 1: wheel of Fortune type thing where you could win a

3431
03:29:10,920 --> 03:29:17,160
Speaker 1: thousand pounds or or they will pay your energy bills. Yeah,

3432
03:29:17,200 --> 03:29:20,080
Speaker 1: but for like three or four months, right, months, four

3433
03:29:20,120 --> 03:29:22,280
Speaker 1: months of energy bills. And the bloke they're doing it

3434
03:29:22,320 --> 03:29:24,960
Speaker 1: in it's just like it's this side of relief when

3435
03:29:25,000 --> 03:29:29,200
Speaker 1: he gets energy bills, right, He's like, oh massive, Like

3436
03:29:29,240 --> 03:29:31,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have my energy bills pay for four months.

3437
03:29:31,080 --> 03:29:33,840
Speaker 1: It's such a relief. And this guy is one of

3438
03:29:33,920 --> 03:29:36,320
Speaker 1: four million people in the UK who uses what's called

3439
03:29:36,320 --> 03:29:40,480
Speaker 1: a pre payment meter, which I'm reliably informed that Americans

3440
03:29:40,560 --> 03:29:44,520
Speaker 1: don't have. So do you do you all? Are you

3441
03:29:44,600 --> 03:29:50,840
Speaker 1: familiar with the concept of pre payment meters? Uh? No, okay,

3442
03:29:51,440 --> 03:29:53,400
Speaker 1: so maybe people are familiar with like pay as you

3443
03:29:53,440 --> 03:29:56,640
Speaker 1: go phones right where you go to the shop. Yeah,

3444
03:29:56,680 --> 03:29:59,800
Speaker 1: if you if you're like selling drugs, or your you

3445
03:30:00,120 --> 03:30:03,360
Speaker 1: engaged in anti government extremism. Yeah you want to want

3446
03:30:03,360 --> 03:30:06,040
Speaker 1: a phone like that? Sure? Yeah yeah yeah, Or if

3447
03:30:06,040 --> 03:30:09,640
Speaker 1: you're doing journalism, you might want journalism reasons. It's the

3448
03:30:09,680 --> 03:30:14,560
Speaker 1: same as one of the others. Yeah, yes, true. Yeah.

3449
03:30:14,680 --> 03:30:17,640
Speaker 1: Here at cool Zone Media. You know, you know, you

3450
03:30:17,680 --> 03:30:20,360
Speaker 1: know who won't use a prepaid cell phone to sell

3451
03:30:20,400 --> 03:30:24,480
Speaker 1: you drugs because they're not Wait yeah they would, you

3452
03:30:24,480 --> 03:30:26,000
Speaker 1: think so? I think they just got enough money they

3453
03:30:26,040 --> 03:30:28,040
Speaker 1: would just use a regular phone bill and have a lawyer.

3454
03:30:28,160 --> 03:30:30,199
Speaker 1: Just you know, I think I think they're deep into

3455
03:30:30,200 --> 03:30:34,280
Speaker 1: boost Mobile for the only thing even John laugh. They're

3456
03:30:34,320 --> 03:30:37,720
Speaker 1: fucking back. Okay, So you know who has to go

3457
03:30:37,760 --> 03:30:39,600
Speaker 1: to Walmut to buy more credit to their phone so

3458
03:30:39,640 --> 03:30:42,520
Speaker 1: they can sell you some weed. It's the advertisers who

3459
03:30:42,520 --> 03:30:46,480
Speaker 1: support this show. Okay, we're back and we are talking

3460
03:30:46,520 --> 03:30:51,879
Speaker 1: about prepaid energy meters, a scintillating topic. So the prepaid

3461
03:30:51,920 --> 03:30:53,120
Speaker 1: energy meter, you have to go out, you have to

3462
03:30:53,120 --> 03:30:55,800
Speaker 1: pay for energy, so if your rate to go. The

3463
03:30:55,920 --> 03:30:59,520
Speaker 1: reason for these overwhelmingly is like there's an agreement by

3464
03:30:59,520 --> 03:31:02,640
Speaker 1: which stenergy supplies won't just cut you off. In the UK,

3465
03:31:03,000 --> 03:31:04,760
Speaker 1: like if you have old people in your house, you

3466
03:31:04,760 --> 03:31:07,200
Speaker 1: have children in your house, like they have to do this.

3467
03:31:07,640 --> 03:31:10,480
Speaker 1: The appearance of caring is this thing that we're going

3468
03:31:10,520 --> 03:31:12,840
Speaker 1: to see is really important in lots of these policies. Right,

3469
03:31:13,080 --> 03:31:15,640
Speaker 1: so they can't cut you off, but if they have it,

3470
03:31:15,680 --> 03:31:17,640
Speaker 1: if you have a meter and you can't prepay for

3471
03:31:17,680 --> 03:31:21,520
Speaker 1: the electricity, then your de facto cut off. Right And

3472
03:31:21,879 --> 03:31:24,000
Speaker 1: the best states I could find about this was in

3473
03:31:24,480 --> 03:31:28,800
Speaker 1: seventeen were roughly a hundred and forty tho households of

3474
03:31:28,879 --> 03:31:32,640
Speaker 1: the of those that had pre payment meters self disconnected.

3475
03:31:32,680 --> 03:31:36,280
Speaker 1: Self disconnected the euphemism for they couldn't pay right for

3476
03:31:36,520 --> 03:31:40,080
Speaker 1: gas or electricity in they couldn't afford to our credit

3477
03:31:40,120 --> 03:31:41,800
Speaker 1: to their meter right and they didn't have the credit,

3478
03:31:41,840 --> 03:31:44,920
Speaker 1: so they couldn't get the electricity, so they end up disconnecting.

3479
03:31:45,160 --> 03:31:47,480
Speaker 1: And if you add to this that the British houses

3480
03:31:47,520 --> 03:31:51,600
Speaker 1: are made out of cheese. Our houses are very poorly

3481
03:31:51,640 --> 03:31:55,240
Speaker 1: insulated for the most part. Right that they're often single brick,

3482
03:31:55,800 --> 03:31:59,040
Speaker 1: so it's expensive to heat them and they get cold

3483
03:31:59,080 --> 03:32:00,680
Speaker 1: in the winter and they get hot in the summer.

3484
03:32:00,680 --> 03:32:03,360
Speaker 1: We're not we don't have houses are designed to deal

3485
03:32:03,400 --> 03:32:06,320
Speaker 1: with the extremes in temperature which we are now experiencing

3486
03:32:06,520 --> 03:32:10,040
Speaker 1: because we have ruined the climate. So people are spending

3487
03:32:10,080 --> 03:32:12,240
Speaker 1: more and more, using more and more electricity and gas

3488
03:32:12,280 --> 03:32:15,240
Speaker 1: to heat their homes. It's costing more and more and

3489
03:32:15,320 --> 03:32:19,000
Speaker 1: increasingly they can't afford to pay it, right, and this

3490
03:32:19,400 --> 03:32:23,840
Speaker 1: will lead to people dying. So if we look at

3491
03:32:23,879 --> 03:32:27,760
Speaker 1: like what the average pensioner in the UK, right, I

3492
03:32:27,800 --> 03:32:31,480
Speaker 1: looked at some statistics on the Office of National Statistic Here,

3493
03:32:31,879 --> 03:32:34,760
Speaker 1: the average pensioner in the UK has on a fixed income.

3494
03:32:34,800 --> 03:32:40,120
Speaker 1: It's making seventeen thousand pounds a year, which I guess

3495
03:32:41,200 --> 03:32:45,200
Speaker 1: pounds of what though the gold rubber gold? You take

3496
03:32:45,240 --> 03:32:47,160
Speaker 1: your pounds to the Bank of England and they give

3497
03:32:47,200 --> 03:32:52,280
Speaker 1: you golden return, Okay, not anymore. That actually, interestingly was,

3498
03:32:53,400 --> 03:32:55,039
Speaker 1: if we go on a side note for a minute,

3499
03:32:55,240 --> 03:32:57,879
Speaker 1: one of the ways Britain achieved greater democratization when the

3500
03:32:57,879 --> 03:33:00,360
Speaker 1: middle class for excluded but landowners were in did was

3501
03:33:00,480 --> 03:33:03,080
Speaker 1: the middle class had cash money and the landowners had

3502
03:33:03,080 --> 03:33:05,039
Speaker 1: wealth in the form of property. Right, so in the

3503
03:33:05,040 --> 03:33:07,640
Speaker 1: middle class threatened to tank the entire Bank of England

3504
03:33:07,640 --> 03:33:11,680
Speaker 1: by taking all their pound notes and asking to have

3505
03:33:11,840 --> 03:33:15,200
Speaker 1: them converted to to the gold that they that they

3506
03:33:15,480 --> 03:33:18,520
Speaker 1: were supposedly pegged to and there was not enough goal

3507
03:33:18,640 --> 03:33:21,039
Speaker 1: to actually to do that for the entire money supplies,

3508
03:33:21,040 --> 03:33:24,280
Speaker 1: so they could have tanked the Bank of England. So yeah,

3509
03:33:24,280 --> 03:33:28,120
Speaker 1: a bit of Reform Act history. They're no longer they're

3510
03:33:28,120 --> 03:33:30,920
Speaker 1: decoupled now from that, so you can't do that, sadly.

3511
03:33:31,760 --> 03:33:34,879
Speaker 1: But seventeen tho pounds is not a lot of money, right.

3512
03:33:35,720 --> 03:33:38,800
Speaker 1: Trust has just announced that the energy bill for an

3513
03:33:38,840 --> 03:33:41,959
Speaker 1: average family is going to be KEPPT at two thousand,

3514
03:33:42,040 --> 03:33:45,760
Speaker 1: five hundred pound a year, which is a decent chunk

3515
03:33:45,800 --> 03:33:49,160
Speaker 1: of your income, right if you're making seventeen thousand. Before that,

3516
03:33:49,320 --> 03:33:52,279
Speaker 1: the previous planned limit had been three thousand, five hundred

3517
03:33:52,400 --> 03:33:55,600
Speaker 1: forty nine pounds for an average family based on average consumption,

3518
03:33:56,360 --> 03:33:59,600
Speaker 1: which is a very significant chunk of your seventeen thousand

3519
03:33:59,640 --> 03:34:02,320
Speaker 1: pound yet, right, especially if if if you're renting on

3520
03:34:02,400 --> 03:34:04,600
Speaker 1: top of that, Right, the cost of housing, the cost

3521
03:34:04,680 --> 03:34:07,240
Speaker 1: of rental housing has gone up in the UK, and

3522
03:34:08,000 --> 03:34:11,680
Speaker 1: so and this is arise again. The capital already been

3523
03:34:11,800 --> 03:34:15,000
Speaker 1: risen in April. Right, it's not a price cap, right,

3524
03:34:15,080 --> 03:34:18,959
Speaker 1: This doesn't mean that you as a family are guaranteed

3525
03:34:19,040 --> 03:34:21,920
Speaker 1: that you will not pay more than this two thousand

3526
03:34:22,000 --> 03:34:25,800
Speaker 1: found number. What is It's a unit cost limit. So

3527
03:34:25,879 --> 03:34:28,359
Speaker 1: not all families are typical, not all homes are typical,

3528
03:34:29,240 --> 03:34:32,200
Speaker 1: but the cost is for those who interesting tenpence per

3529
03:34:32,280 --> 03:34:36,480
Speaker 1: killer for gas, steady fourpence per killer for electricity. So

3530
03:34:36,840 --> 03:34:40,080
Speaker 1: what this means is that, like, we've capped a little

3531
03:34:40,080 --> 03:34:44,520
Speaker 1: bit of the cost and in response, like, and this

3532
03:34:44,600 --> 03:34:47,200
Speaker 1: is pretty this is pretty typical of what the conservatives do. Right.

3533
03:34:47,200 --> 03:34:49,160
Speaker 1: They'll do this thing where they give the appearance of

3534
03:34:49,200 --> 03:34:51,760
Speaker 1: caring and then at the same time they bundle it

3535
03:34:51,800 --> 03:34:56,800
Speaker 1: in with a bunch of incredibly like uh, just like

3536
03:34:58,040 --> 03:35:00,000
Speaker 1: the best way to understand these people is that they've

3537
03:35:00,040 --> 03:35:03,960
Speaker 1: you the free market as a religion, right, So, and

3538
03:35:03,920 --> 03:35:06,320
Speaker 1: they believe that like the only way out of anything

3539
03:35:06,480 --> 03:35:09,200
Speaker 1: is to cut taxes. Whether they actually believe that because

3540
03:35:09,200 --> 03:35:11,640
Speaker 1: they think it will genuinely make the situation better, or

3541
03:35:12,000 --> 03:35:13,879
Speaker 1: they're just trying to get as much as they can

3542
03:35:13,959 --> 03:35:16,960
Speaker 1: for them and theirs. I think it's probably I'm leaning

3543
03:35:16,959 --> 03:35:21,680
Speaker 1: towards the second one, right, But so she bundles this

3544
03:35:21,800 --> 03:35:27,120
Speaker 1: with the UK is gonna gonna lift it ban on fracking, right, Um,

3545
03:35:27,800 --> 03:35:30,840
Speaker 1: the UK band fracking after a series of earth tremors

3546
03:35:30,920 --> 03:35:34,360
Speaker 1: near Blackpool, which like, there's a lot of cursed things

3547
03:35:34,400 --> 03:35:37,160
Speaker 1: about Britain, but until recently we hadn't added earthquakes to

3548
03:35:37,200 --> 03:35:41,680
Speaker 1: that list, and so thank you Liz. They it's very

3549
03:35:41,680 --> 03:35:45,720
Speaker 1: funny work Business School published to study in pointing out

3550
03:35:46,640 --> 03:35:49,400
Speaker 1: it is widely widely recognized that the open and liberal

3551
03:35:49,440 --> 03:35:52,080
Speaker 1: nature of the UK's gas market means that the market

3552
03:35:52,080 --> 03:35:55,800
Speaker 1: price the national Baltic point is unlikely to be influenced

3553
03:35:55,800 --> 03:35:58,800
Speaker 1: by shell gas development. So shell gas is fracking right

3554
03:35:58,840 --> 03:36:02,080
Speaker 1: in the UK. So the UK is going to start fracking,

3555
03:36:02,120 --> 03:36:05,040
Speaker 1: which is great. And she also proposed removing the top

3556
03:36:05,080 --> 03:36:08,800
Speaker 1: tier of income tax, which is reducing the amount of

3557
03:36:08,840 --> 03:36:11,000
Speaker 1: tax paid by people who earn more than a hundred

3558
03:36:11,000 --> 03:36:13,240
Speaker 1: and fifty thousand pounds a year right now they pay

3559
03:36:14,040 --> 03:36:18,080
Speaker 1: tax above that. This announcement caused a pound to fall

3560
03:36:18,120 --> 03:36:22,560
Speaker 1: to a historic low against the dollar and for Trust

3561
03:36:22,640 --> 03:36:26,240
Speaker 1: to find herself in open beef with the Wokes Golds

3562
03:36:26,280 --> 03:36:29,880
Speaker 1: at the i m F. So the i m F

3563
03:36:30,000 --> 03:36:32,560
Speaker 1: said new economic measures laid out by the UK government

3564
03:36:32,560 --> 03:36:35,440
Speaker 1: will likely increase inequality, and they added that the i

3565
03:36:35,600 --> 03:36:38,480
Speaker 1: m F does not recommend large and untargeted fiscal packages

3566
03:36:38,560 --> 03:36:43,160
Speaker 1: at this juncture. So she also during this like she

3567
03:36:44,160 --> 03:36:47,600
Speaker 1: she promised that she was going to cancel a planned

3568
03:36:47,680 --> 03:36:51,120
Speaker 1: rise on corporate tax and scrap a proposed cap on

3569
03:36:51,200 --> 03:36:55,039
Speaker 1: bankers bonuses. This has been one of her big policy things,

3570
03:36:55,080 --> 03:36:58,480
Speaker 1: along with Simon Clark, who declared a new age of

3571
03:36:58,480 --> 03:37:03,720
Speaker 1: austerity at the time they announced this. Right, but there's

3572
03:37:03,760 --> 03:37:06,520
Speaker 1: this constant like everything Britain does is only one way

3573
03:37:06,520 --> 03:37:08,760
Speaker 1: in which conservative governments to move can move, and that

3574
03:37:08,879 --> 03:37:10,760
Speaker 1: is taxing the other people who went to the same

3575
03:37:10,760 --> 03:37:15,640
Speaker 1: schools and universities as them less. So I kind of

3576
03:37:15,680 --> 03:37:17,840
Speaker 1: want to take a step back here and talk about

3577
03:37:17,840 --> 03:37:21,240
Speaker 1: the ideology that underpins a lot of what Trust is doing.

3578
03:37:21,440 --> 03:37:25,920
Speaker 1: And and it's that she and Chance to the execut

3579
03:37:25,959 --> 03:37:29,680
Speaker 1: Quasi Quieting and pretty Patel and Dominic rob who are

3580
03:37:29,680 --> 03:37:31,560
Speaker 1: all in her cabinet, I think a part of this

3581
03:37:31,840 --> 03:37:35,120
Speaker 1: free enterprise group within the Conservative Party. And much like

3582
03:37:35,200 --> 03:37:38,160
Speaker 1: you have caucuses in the American Senate, in Britain, we

3583
03:37:38,200 --> 03:37:43,039
Speaker 1: have these groups. And they wrote this book called Britannia Unchained,

3584
03:37:43,400 --> 03:37:46,039
Speaker 1: which I don't know if people are probably not familiar with. Right,

3585
03:37:47,080 --> 03:37:50,200
Speaker 1: I've heard of it, but I know very little about it. Yeah,

3586
03:37:50,280 --> 03:37:53,320
Speaker 1: it's just like a it's a series of short essays,

3587
03:37:53,360 --> 03:37:57,560
Speaker 1: just like doing a Milton freedoman, like an unreconstructed free

3588
03:37:57,600 --> 03:38:01,560
Speaker 1: market fundamentalism. That it's it's very different to what the

3589
03:38:02,200 --> 03:38:04,760
Speaker 1: because the American right likes to talk about markets and

3590
03:38:04,800 --> 03:38:08,480
Speaker 1: libertarianism and stuff, right, but like in general their entire politics,

3591
03:38:08,520 --> 03:38:11,440
Speaker 1: it's just kind of owning the lips, right, like these

3592
03:38:11,480 --> 03:38:14,400
Speaker 1: socio cultural a greevances, and then when they get in power,

3593
03:38:14,440 --> 03:38:17,960
Speaker 1: they they they're spending is largely just about one might

3594
03:38:18,080 --> 03:38:22,039
Speaker 1: argue staying in power, right, Whereas the Conservatives in Britain

3595
03:38:22,080 --> 03:38:27,640
Speaker 1: are genuinely committed to slashing government, including slashing services, including

3596
03:38:27,640 --> 03:38:30,720
Speaker 1: slashing any kind of social safety. Now right, it does

3597
03:38:30,760 --> 03:38:35,320
Speaker 1: have these amusing consequences sometimes, like Britain continually cuts the

3598
03:38:35,400 --> 03:38:38,439
Speaker 1: number of police it has, which is great. It's genuinely

3599
03:38:38,480 --> 03:38:41,400
Speaker 1: really funny. Yeah, it's it's very funny. It's very funny

3600
03:38:41,480 --> 03:38:44,039
Speaker 1: that like our most right wing party, and I guess

3601
03:38:44,080 --> 03:38:46,320
Speaker 1: not our most writing party if you've got some proper nutters,

3602
03:38:46,360 --> 03:38:50,520
Speaker 1: but we've defunded the police just by not wanting to

3603
03:38:50,520 --> 03:38:54,360
Speaker 1: spend money on them. It is also okay, and by

3604
03:38:54,440 --> 03:38:57,080
Speaker 1: by funny, you have the incredibly depressing that like like

3605
03:38:57,160 --> 03:39:00,720
Speaker 1: Corby Corbin was running on adding more cops, which is

3606
03:39:00,800 --> 03:39:05,000
Speaker 1: like the most cursed, Like the British left like always

3607
03:39:05,040 --> 03:39:08,760
Speaker 1: like they've always find a way to destroy themselves. That

3608
03:39:08,840 --> 03:39:11,400
Speaker 1: they've been doing this for like two hundred years. It's

3609
03:39:11,640 --> 03:39:16,160
Speaker 1: really impressive stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's incredibly it's incredibly depressing

3610
03:39:16,240 --> 03:39:18,920
Speaker 1: to watch, Like, yes, the British left just tear itself

3611
03:39:18,920 --> 03:39:20,760
Speaker 1: to piece. Not that the American left doesn't tear itself

3612
03:39:20,800 --> 03:39:22,120
Speaker 1: to pieces, right, it seems to be a thing on

3613
03:39:22,160 --> 03:39:24,160
Speaker 1: the left. But yeah, when the British left had a

3614
03:39:24,240 --> 03:39:28,480
Speaker 1: serious run and making a serious difference in instead, we

3615
03:39:28,560 --> 03:39:32,280
Speaker 1: decided to just absolutely like tear each other to shreds.

3616
03:39:32,360 --> 03:39:35,879
Speaker 1: And here we are, right here we are with the

3617
03:39:36,040 --> 03:39:40,560
Speaker 1: number of children in poverty going up by six hundred

3618
03:39:40,680 --> 03:39:49,480
Speaker 1: thousand in since with the number of twelve The number

3619
03:39:49,520 --> 03:39:51,879
Speaker 1: of children who rely on food banks for their food

3620
03:39:51,879 --> 03:39:54,880
Speaker 1: security has tripled. By the end of this year, their

3621
03:39:55,000 --> 03:39:57,520
Speaker 1: National Health Service, the National Health Curve, which is our

3622
03:39:57,600 --> 03:40:00,640
Speaker 1: nationalize socialized medicine system, right, the IDA, will have been

3623
03:40:00,680 --> 03:40:04,760
Speaker 1: cut by compared to that's despite the fact that we

3624
03:40:04,800 --> 03:40:10,720
Speaker 1: just went through a pandemic. The poorer socio economic groups

3625
03:40:10,720 --> 03:40:14,320
Speaker 1: in the UK are experiencing a full in life expectancy

3626
03:40:14,840 --> 03:40:18,040
Speaker 1: for the first like we we have life expectancy. It

3627
03:40:18,080 --> 03:40:21,400
Speaker 1: is pretty much continually trucked up since the Industrial Revolution,

3628
03:40:21,520 --> 03:40:25,680
Speaker 1: but we're now finally slashing that down again. Well I wonder,

3629
03:40:25,760 --> 03:40:29,560
Speaker 1: I wonder why. Yeah, there's no way of explaining it

3630
03:40:29,600 --> 03:40:33,800
Speaker 1: that there's it's just happening. The only solution is a

3631
03:40:33,840 --> 03:40:36,879
Speaker 1: free market, a free market, a freeer market. He had

3632
03:40:36,879 --> 03:40:40,040
Speaker 1: to pump more things into the area. Yes, ye, well

3633
03:40:40,160 --> 03:40:41,840
Speaker 1: here I'm going to take a puff from my inhaler

3634
03:40:41,879 --> 03:40:44,800
Speaker 1: because my lungs are dying. Yeah. Well that's because one

3635
03:40:44,920 --> 03:40:48,000
Speaker 1: is outrageous right now, you're not getting fracked hard enough

3636
03:40:48,040 --> 03:40:54,400
Speaker 1: in the Pacific. More fracking will fix money. And the

3637
03:40:54,440 --> 03:40:58,200
Speaker 1: fact that people are literally dying, yeah, younger than their

3638
03:40:58,240 --> 03:41:02,080
Speaker 1: their parents did. And the Tories don't they have these

3639
03:41:02,120 --> 03:41:05,400
Speaker 1: like what's very important to them. It's the performance of

3640
03:41:05,480 --> 03:41:09,920
Speaker 1: patrician care, right like we saw this with Theresa May's

3641
03:41:10,000 --> 03:41:13,480
Speaker 1: burning injustices, which of course remain burning injustices because you're

3642
03:41:13,480 --> 03:41:17,280
Speaker 1: doing anything about them. Boris Johnson's leveling up agenda of

3643
03:41:17,360 --> 03:41:20,879
Speaker 1: people familiar with his God, I can't believe you have

3644
03:41:20,920 --> 03:41:23,760
Speaker 1: a minister, you have a shadow minister of leveling up.

3645
03:41:24,720 --> 03:41:28,440
Speaker 1: I just like, at what point do you just go

3646
03:41:28,840 --> 03:41:32,080
Speaker 1: none of this is real, and like if they start

3647
03:41:32,120 --> 03:41:34,480
Speaker 1: sending cops, you just keep beating them up until everyone

3648
03:41:34,520 --> 03:41:36,720
Speaker 1: else is forced to concede that they're like, no, there

3649
03:41:36,800 --> 03:41:39,840
Speaker 1: is not in fact a shadow a shadow minister of

3650
03:41:39,959 --> 03:41:44,840
Speaker 1: leveling up. Yeah, I don't know. That is the big

3651
03:41:44,879 --> 03:41:47,000
Speaker 1: The big question that I want to ask is at

3652
03:41:47,000 --> 03:41:48,680
Speaker 1: what point do we realize that there is not a

3653
03:41:48,680 --> 03:41:52,120
Speaker 1: shadow Minister of leveling up and that we don't have

3654
03:41:52,160 --> 03:41:54,560
Speaker 1: to open new pork markets, and that maybe that isn't

3655
03:41:54,560 --> 03:41:57,160
Speaker 1: a solution to us dying younger than our parents, and

3656
03:41:57,720 --> 03:42:00,720
Speaker 1: that we don't have to do what these people say

3657
03:42:00,760 --> 03:42:04,760
Speaker 1: when they are just very blatantly like Trust is very

3658
03:42:05,040 --> 03:42:09,560
Speaker 1: obviously doing an extractive speed run on the British economy

3659
03:42:09,760 --> 03:42:12,320
Speaker 1: right there. And I'll tell you what, you know, who

3660
03:42:12,360 --> 03:42:15,920
Speaker 1: else will do an expected steed run on the British economy?

3661
03:42:16,280 --> 03:42:18,280
Speaker 1: Is that the products and services that yeah, the show

3662
03:42:18,680 --> 03:42:23,320
Speaker 1: it is sadly yeah, alright, we're talking about extractors speed runs.

3663
03:42:23,320 --> 03:42:28,360
Speaker 1: We're back. So with Johnson and even with Theresa May

3664
03:42:28,480 --> 03:42:30,600
Speaker 1: right who was a Prime minister before him, there was

3665
03:42:30,640 --> 03:42:35,440
Speaker 1: this important performance of of caring right, being like, Oh,

3666
03:42:35,520 --> 03:42:39,200
Speaker 1: we're gonna make life better for the poorer socioeconomic groups,

3667
03:42:39,640 --> 03:42:43,199
Speaker 1: the poorer people in the UK. I think what's changed

3668
03:42:43,320 --> 03:42:47,720
Speaker 1: is it like the nature of consent from the governed

3669
03:42:47,879 --> 03:42:51,000
Speaker 1: is is this thing that maybe we need to elucidate more, right,

3670
03:42:51,000 --> 03:42:54,400
Speaker 1: Like in Britain, there was this kind of consensus that

3671
03:42:54,520 --> 03:42:56,680
Speaker 1: like the the governing party will pretend to care and

3672
03:42:56,720 --> 03:42:58,840
Speaker 1: we'll pretend to do things, and sometimes they would let

3673
03:42:58,879 --> 03:43:01,960
Speaker 1: you have nice thing, write little treats and trinkets, and

3674
03:43:02,000 --> 03:43:06,440
Speaker 1: that in return you would largely not kick them out right,

3675
03:43:06,480 --> 03:43:08,920
Speaker 1: like either physically or electorally, although it's very hard to

3676
03:43:08,959 --> 03:43:12,240
Speaker 1: keep them out electorally because of Britain's asked backwards electoral system,

3677
03:43:12,280 --> 03:43:15,720
Speaker 1: which is another relic of a previous era. Now they

3678
03:43:15,840 --> 03:43:19,240
Speaker 1: don't seem to be bothering to pretend to care, right,

3679
03:43:19,320 --> 03:43:23,000
Speaker 1: Like when you're looking at a system in which, when

3680
03:43:23,040 --> 03:43:26,400
Speaker 1: trust came to power, old people were going to die.

3681
03:43:26,600 --> 03:43:29,240
Speaker 1: We we were looking at a system in which people

3682
03:43:29,240 --> 03:43:31,080
Speaker 1: are dying younger than their parents, and old people were

3683
03:43:31,120 --> 03:43:32,920
Speaker 1: going to die in the cold this winter, like I've

3684
03:43:32,959 --> 03:43:36,560
Speaker 1: got friends. I remember this was years ago, but it

3685
03:43:36,600 --> 03:43:38,840
Speaker 1: was when the utility brices maybe started going up. When

3686
03:43:38,840 --> 03:43:41,000
Speaker 1: my grandfather passed, my grandmother lived on her own and

3687
03:43:41,040 --> 03:43:43,640
Speaker 1: her being really afraid to heat the house because of

3688
03:43:43,680 --> 03:43:46,840
Speaker 1: how much it costs. Right, And I've got friends who

3689
03:43:46,840 --> 03:43:48,360
Speaker 1: have spoken to this time who were like, well, we're

3690
03:43:48,400 --> 03:43:51,520
Speaker 1: preparing to have our grand come and live with us

3691
03:43:51,680 --> 03:43:53,879
Speaker 1: so that we can we can heat the house, or

3692
03:43:53,920 --> 03:43:56,120
Speaker 1: like if we just move into the downstairs parts of

3693
03:43:56,160 --> 03:43:59,440
Speaker 1: the house then we can keep those warm, right, or

3694
03:43:59,600 --> 03:44:01,640
Speaker 1: like you know, we're going to go back to having

3695
03:44:01,680 --> 03:44:04,120
Speaker 1: fires and we'll just google warm our house with a

3696
03:44:04,160 --> 03:44:05,680
Speaker 1: wood fire, right, lots of how does in the UK

3697
03:44:05,720 --> 03:44:09,160
Speaker 1: still have fireplaces that are functional? Yeah, my my house

3698
03:44:09,200 --> 03:44:11,280
Speaker 1: growing up was heat with a wood fire. It's great.

3699
03:44:11,320 --> 03:44:14,040
Speaker 1: It's good for their lungs. It's gives them a good

3700
03:44:14,040 --> 03:44:15,879
Speaker 1: coating that they can then use in the rest of

3701
03:44:15,879 --> 03:44:19,040
Speaker 1: your life to repel other pollutants. Coal fires are great

3702
03:44:19,080 --> 03:44:23,920
Speaker 1: inside the home, highly encouraged. So like people were really

3703
03:44:24,120 --> 03:44:28,320
Speaker 1: making these like it's it's it's the sort of stuff

3704
03:44:28,360 --> 03:44:30,880
Speaker 1: you you associate maybe with like like the hard times

3705
03:44:30,879 --> 03:44:34,160
Speaker 1: in the Soviet Union, right, like like sort of being like, well,

3706
03:44:34,200 --> 03:44:35,720
Speaker 1: we're going to go to the food bank and we'll

3707
03:44:35,720 --> 03:44:37,520
Speaker 1: line up and get food and then we'll we'll all

3708
03:44:37,560 --> 03:44:40,280
Speaker 1: huddling one room to stay warm. But these are the

3709
03:44:40,280 --> 03:44:43,920
Speaker 1: plans that people were making like this this summer, looking

3710
03:44:44,000 --> 03:44:48,600
Speaker 1: to this winter. And Liz Trust responded to that with like, Okay, well,

3711
03:44:48,600 --> 03:44:51,039
Speaker 1: the way to fix this is lower taxes for high

3712
03:44:51,040 --> 03:44:55,680
Speaker 1: earners and no cap, but removing the cap on bankers

3713
03:44:55,680 --> 03:44:58,800
Speaker 1: bonuses so that the financial services industry will relocate to

3714
03:44:58,840 --> 03:45:01,320
Speaker 1: the UK, which it aren't because the UK has left

3715
03:45:01,320 --> 03:45:03,800
Speaker 1: the European Union, right, and it's now kind of a

3716
03:45:03,840 --> 03:45:08,879
Speaker 1: pariah in that sense. So like, I don't really understand

3717
03:45:09,000 --> 03:45:15,000
Speaker 1: how the UK, how the British government at obtains consent

3718
03:45:15,600 --> 03:45:20,600
Speaker 1: from the government anymore. And I'm partially interested to see

3719
03:45:20,640 --> 03:45:22,680
Speaker 1: how this goes, and partially obviously like a pall to

3720
03:45:22,720 --> 03:45:25,800
Speaker 1: see the costs of this. Like they're not even trying

3721
03:45:25,840 --> 03:45:28,560
Speaker 1: to care, they're not even pretending anymore. They're just going

3722
03:45:28,600 --> 03:45:30,720
Speaker 1: to take what they can and then presumably bounced to

3723
03:45:30,800 --> 03:45:34,640
Speaker 1: some tax island where they can they can survive and

3724
03:45:34,680 --> 03:45:36,760
Speaker 1: thrive while the rest of us freeze our asses off

3725
03:45:36,800 --> 03:45:42,560
Speaker 1: over the winter. So what I wanna, I guess, finish

3726
03:45:42,640 --> 03:45:45,800
Speaker 1: up with is this idea that like, so in America,

3727
03:45:45,840 --> 03:45:48,440
Speaker 1: you have six terms of elections, right, so every we're

3728
03:45:48,480 --> 03:45:50,960
Speaker 1: we're having a mid terms next month and then we'll

3729
03:45:51,000 --> 03:45:53,480
Speaker 1: have the presidential in Britain. We don't write in Britain

3730
03:45:53,920 --> 03:45:56,359
Speaker 1: the government has to lose a vote from no confidence,

3731
03:45:56,440 --> 03:45:58,440
Speaker 1: which is when the majority of MP's vote they no

3732
03:45:58,440 --> 03:46:02,279
Speaker 1: longer have confidence in the government or the Prime minister

3733
03:46:02,600 --> 03:46:05,280
Speaker 1: have to warr in theory the monarch castic corner election. Right,

3734
03:46:05,600 --> 03:46:07,680
Speaker 1: So I guess King Charles could just because they didn't

3735
03:46:07,720 --> 03:46:11,119
Speaker 1: let King Charles go to the climate summit recently, which

3736
03:46:11,120 --> 03:46:13,520
Speaker 1: is another amazing thing that Live Trusts managed to do

3737
03:46:13,760 --> 03:46:16,920
Speaker 1: within like a month of being in office. She's already

3738
03:46:16,959 --> 03:46:19,920
Speaker 1: like openly in beef with the monarchy, which is the

3739
03:46:20,000 --> 03:46:24,000
Speaker 1: one thing that conservative people might like more than white

3740
03:46:24,080 --> 03:46:27,880
Speaker 1: people who tax rich people less. She wouldn't let King

3741
03:46:27,920 --> 03:46:32,080
Speaker 1: Charles go to a climate summit because conservatives are more

3742
03:46:32,160 --> 03:46:34,520
Speaker 1: or less climate change deniers or at least sort of

3743
03:46:34,560 --> 03:46:36,840
Speaker 1: climate change don't give a fuck because we need to

3744
03:46:36,879 --> 03:46:41,920
Speaker 1: extract more money, and so like at some point, like

3745
03:46:42,040 --> 03:46:45,080
Speaker 1: I don't know what the withdrawal of consent looks like anymore. Right,

3746
03:46:45,280 --> 03:46:49,760
Speaker 1: it's the people who British politicians see themselves like see

3747
03:46:49,800 --> 03:46:53,000
Speaker 1: themselves as governing for like their constituents are seemingly like

3748
03:46:53,040 --> 03:46:55,879
Speaker 1: columnists in the Telegraph, and the people who are the

3749
03:46:55,920 --> 03:46:58,560
Speaker 1: CEOs of these big companies in London which have grown

3750
03:46:58,600 --> 03:47:00,800
Speaker 1: and grown and grown and grown, bay on this endless

3751
03:47:00,800 --> 03:47:04,119
Speaker 1: supply of free money that is now drying up, right,

3752
03:47:04,200 --> 03:47:06,600
Speaker 1: So instead of dealing with the record of that, they're

3753
03:47:06,600 --> 03:47:07,959
Speaker 1: going to try and look at other ways for those

3754
03:47:08,000 --> 03:47:12,200
Speaker 1: people to continue to grow and extract finance. And I

3755
03:47:12,240 --> 03:47:15,680
Speaker 1: don't know what that means for the rest of British people,

3756
03:47:15,720 --> 03:47:19,200
Speaker 1: like I don't know what the withdrawal of consent from

3757
03:47:19,200 --> 03:47:22,080
Speaker 1: a system which so obviously doesn't care about the material

3758
03:47:22,120 --> 03:47:26,040
Speaker 1: conditions you live in looks like. But if we want

3759
03:47:26,040 --> 03:47:28,360
Speaker 1: to talk about collapse, and collapse is a thing that

3760
03:47:28,400 --> 03:47:31,440
Speaker 1: gradually happens rather than the thing that kind of we

3761
03:47:31,480 --> 03:47:34,480
Speaker 1: click our fingers and it's there. I think some of

3762
03:47:34,520 --> 03:47:36,920
Speaker 1: this is what it looks like, like people refusing to

3763
03:47:36,959 --> 03:47:39,640
Speaker 1: pay their power bills is becoming a thing in UK right.

3764
03:47:39,640 --> 03:47:42,480
Speaker 1: I should mention the energy companies are recording record profits

3765
03:47:42,840 --> 03:47:46,560
Speaker 1: throughout this time period. Maybe it looks like protests in

3766
03:47:46,560 --> 03:47:49,760
Speaker 1: the street that Britain has had these like they had

3767
03:47:49,760 --> 03:47:52,200
Speaker 1: big tuition feeth protests, and we had the quote unquote

3768
03:47:52,240 --> 03:47:55,280
Speaker 1: London riots right, which were incredibly harshly put down and

3769
03:47:55,320 --> 03:47:56,960
Speaker 1: people went to jail for a long time for like

3770
03:47:57,000 --> 03:48:01,160
Speaker 1: stealing a bottle of water from Motesco. So, like, I

3771
03:48:01,200 --> 03:48:03,440
Speaker 1: think it's worth watching for people who are not in

3772
03:48:03,480 --> 03:48:06,480
Speaker 1: the UK, Like, what does it look like when you're

3773
03:48:06,480 --> 03:48:09,560
Speaker 1: governing elite stop pretending to care about you And what

3774
03:48:09,720 --> 03:48:13,000
Speaker 1: is the withdrawal of legitimacy or the withdrawal of consent

3775
03:48:13,879 --> 03:48:16,000
Speaker 1: look like? And like I said, I don't know, it's

3776
03:48:16,040 --> 03:48:18,080
Speaker 1: it's looked different every time it's happened, right, looked different

3777
03:48:18,120 --> 03:48:22,360
Speaker 1: in the Soviet Union too, uh, the way it looked

3778
03:48:22,360 --> 03:48:26,000
Speaker 1: in Like I'm trying to think of other regime collapses

3779
03:48:26,000 --> 03:48:29,000
Speaker 1: in South America. And but like we say that, ay,

3780
03:48:29,560 --> 03:48:32,080
Speaker 1: we say that a regime is consolidated when the rules

3781
03:48:32,080 --> 03:48:33,879
Speaker 1: of the game are more important than the outcome of

3782
03:48:33,879 --> 03:48:36,320
Speaker 1: the game. And I think we're getting to a point

3783
03:48:36,360 --> 03:48:38,080
Speaker 1: in Britain where maybe the outcome of the game is

3784
03:48:38,120 --> 03:48:39,760
Speaker 1: going to be more important than the rules of the game.

3785
03:48:40,480 --> 03:48:43,320
Speaker 1: So that might mean some serious change, it might not.

3786
03:48:43,400 --> 03:48:44,760
Speaker 1: It might just mean, you know, we put a new

3787
03:48:44,840 --> 03:48:47,480
Speaker 1: dude on our on our coins and everyone puts bunting

3788
03:48:47,520 --> 03:48:51,000
Speaker 1: up industry, and we do nothing fundamentally different and just

3789
03:48:51,080 --> 03:48:54,199
Speaker 1: acquiescent and living conditions getting worse and worse and worse,

3790
03:48:54,240 --> 03:48:55,959
Speaker 1: and more and more people are dying because their poor.

3791
03:48:56,320 --> 03:49:01,840
Speaker 1: I don't know, but yeah, Garrison is just nodding, bet, Yeah,

3792
03:49:01,879 --> 03:49:03,120
Speaker 1: I think that last one is going to be the

3793
03:49:03,160 --> 03:49:05,640
Speaker 1: one that happens. Yeah, maybe we'll do it Olympics, and

3794
03:49:05,640 --> 03:49:08,040
Speaker 1: we'll spend the next what was London twelve, the next

3795
03:49:08,120 --> 03:49:11,320
Speaker 1: decade just reminiscing about how great that was, and and

3796
03:49:11,360 --> 03:49:15,040
Speaker 1: then we'll just not notice that, you know, our grandparents

3797
03:49:15,040 --> 03:49:18,680
Speaker 1: are dying unnecessarily because distrust his friends have to make

3798
03:49:18,680 --> 03:49:22,360
Speaker 1: more money. I have. I have an enormous amount of

3799
03:49:22,360 --> 03:49:26,360
Speaker 1: faith in the British people to just do nothing like

3800
03:49:26,400 --> 03:49:29,800
Speaker 1: they they they have, they have an unbelievable ability to

3801
03:49:29,960 --> 03:49:34,360
Speaker 1: just be like things are getting worse, like I don't

3802
03:49:34,360 --> 03:49:38,920
Speaker 1: know who cares, like We're still British, like they like

3803
03:49:39,480 --> 03:49:43,080
Speaker 1: they can't even really effectively do imperialism anymore. But it's

3804
03:49:43,120 --> 03:49:46,200
Speaker 1: like everyone so wedded to the like imperialism machine that

3805
03:49:46,240 --> 03:49:50,480
Speaker 1: everyone that like, you know, everyone, every everyone will constantly

3806
03:49:50,560 --> 03:49:53,080
Speaker 1: vote against their class interests. Everyone will constantly act agains

3807
03:49:53,080 --> 03:49:55,320
Speaker 1: a class interests, everyone will constantly just sort of like

3808
03:49:56,560 --> 03:50:00,480
Speaker 1: literally let hundreds of thousands of people die around them.

3809
03:50:00,640 --> 03:50:05,760
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, because flags and sports. I think Corbin has

3810
03:50:06,520 --> 03:50:09,840
Speaker 1: and energized a lot of people into realizing their class interests,

3811
03:50:09,880 --> 03:50:11,920
Speaker 1: perhaps more than they were before, because there was briefly

3812
03:50:11,920 --> 03:50:14,360
Speaker 1: a parliamentary alternative, but right now there isn't Like kiss

3813
03:50:14,400 --> 03:50:16,960
Speaker 1: Downer is not Jeremy Corbyn. But then you know, but

3814
03:50:17,000 --> 03:50:19,720
Speaker 1: it's also the British right, like it's like well okay,

3815
03:50:19,760 --> 03:50:22,880
Speaker 1: so they sort of reconsolidated or left it did nothing,

3816
03:50:23,600 --> 03:50:27,240
Speaker 1: got owned and then imploded and now it's being split

3817
03:50:27,280 --> 03:50:31,760
Speaker 1: between like just complete pure like people arguing that Star

3818
03:50:31,800 --> 03:50:36,040
Speaker 1: Wars doing socialism like like pure labor party hacks, and

3819
03:50:36,080 --> 03:50:39,360
Speaker 1: then like a bunch of people just doing nothing because

3820
03:50:39,720 --> 03:50:44,560
Speaker 1: it's the UK and it fundamentally never gets any better. Yeah. Yeah,

3821
03:50:44,680 --> 03:50:46,680
Speaker 1: there was like I take a little bit of hope

3822
03:50:46,720 --> 03:50:50,160
Speaker 1: from like have you seen the the where people are

3823
03:50:50,280 --> 03:50:52,200
Speaker 1: to be deported from the UK and then they were

3824
03:50:52,200 --> 03:50:55,400
Speaker 1: like mass mobilizations to pretend that happening. Yeah, that gives

3825
03:50:55,400 --> 03:50:57,880
Speaker 1: me some hope. Right, that's a lot of people willing

3826
03:50:57,880 --> 03:51:00,000
Speaker 1: to give up the Saturday or the Sunday to shower

3827
03:51:00,320 --> 03:51:04,240
Speaker 1: immigration offices, and like, that's something that didn't happen by

3828
03:51:04,240 --> 03:51:06,480
Speaker 1: and large in the in the US right, even with

3829
03:51:06,640 --> 03:51:10,800
Speaker 1: the like gross abuses of the immigration system under Donald Trump,

3830
03:51:11,560 --> 03:51:13,760
Speaker 1: people people didn't stop that happening. So some of that

3831
03:51:14,040 --> 03:51:17,040
Speaker 1: it did happen in places like there are a lot

3832
03:51:17,040 --> 03:51:19,320
Speaker 1: of flights that got blocked and stuff. Yeah, I guess,

3833
03:51:19,360 --> 03:51:22,960
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, yeah it happened then, Yeah, in a

3834
03:51:23,000 --> 03:51:26,160
Speaker 1: different way, some people here did, Like I think there

3835
03:51:26,200 --> 03:51:28,360
Speaker 1: was an icing and barrier logan and it got run

3836
03:51:28,360 --> 03:51:30,600
Speaker 1: out of town. So I shouldn't say that, but that

3837
03:51:30,640 --> 03:51:33,640
Speaker 1: gives me hope. It gives me hope that maybe some

3838
03:51:33,680 --> 03:51:37,120
Speaker 1: people will realize that, like, the solution is not to

3839
03:51:37,200 --> 03:51:41,160
Speaker 1: vote harder, right, and the solution is to is to

3840
03:51:41,280 --> 03:51:44,200
Speaker 1: organize and to do things in extra parliamentary fashion and

3841
03:51:44,240 --> 03:51:47,360
Speaker 1: not trust the people who are participating in your exploitation

3842
03:51:47,400 --> 03:51:49,960
Speaker 1: to live you from your exploitation, which has maybe been

3843
03:51:49,960 --> 03:51:54,000
Speaker 1: our mistake for too long. Yeah, we we Everyone in

3844
03:51:54,040 --> 03:51:57,120
Speaker 1: England needs to take a page from the Harry Potter

3845
03:51:57,200 --> 03:52:01,600
Speaker 1: books and arm the children to murder or government officials.

3846
03:52:01,640 --> 03:52:04,520
Speaker 1: If I'm remembering how those folks ended for for for

3847
03:52:04,520 --> 03:52:07,040
Speaker 1: form a gorilla army of you and your friends and

3848
03:52:07,160 --> 03:52:12,440
Speaker 1: attempt to overthrow the government. Probably. Yeah, let's let's say

3849
03:52:12,640 --> 03:52:16,400
Speaker 1: that's that's that's the plot of the Order of the Phoenix. Okay, yeah,

3850
03:52:16,440 --> 03:52:20,440
Speaker 1: I remember it now when they when they do a cobbum. Yeah,

3851
03:52:20,640 --> 03:52:23,680
Speaker 1: that's it. That's that's. That's our message to you today,

3852
03:52:24,400 --> 03:52:26,520
Speaker 1: read Harry pot To do a cobbum. There we go,

3853
03:52:26,680 --> 03:52:30,040
Speaker 1: There we go. That's our legally binding message for you today,

3854
03:52:30,960 --> 03:52:36,920
Speaker 1: non actionable threat. Hey, We'll be back Monday with more

3855
03:52:37,000 --> 03:52:39,680
Speaker 1: episodes every week from now until the heat death of

3856
03:52:39,680 --> 03:52:42,280
Speaker 1: the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of

3857
03:52:42,320 --> 03:52:45,240
Speaker 1: cool zone Media. For more podcasts from cool zone Media,

3858
03:52:45,320 --> 03:52:47,800
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

3859
03:52:47,880 --> 03:52:50,120
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

3860
03:52:50,240 --> 03:52:53,080
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources

3861
03:52:53,080 --> 03:52:55,640
Speaker 1: for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone

3862
03:52:55,680 --> 03:52:58,440
Speaker 1: Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.