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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And President Trump's inauguration is perhaps said

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Speaker 1: to be moved indoors due to very cold temperatures. We

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Speaker 1: have such a great show for you today. The Lincoln

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Speaker 1: Project's own Stuart Stevens stops by to talk about the

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Speaker 1: lessons learned as Biden leaves office. Then we'll talk to

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Speaker 1: Democracy Forward Sky Perryman about how they will push back

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Speaker 1: on the Trump administration.

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Speaker 2: But first the news, So, Malie, the Supreme Court has

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Speaker 2: ruled unanimously one of the rare things we see that

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Speaker 2: it is legal for the law that was passed banning

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Speaker 2: TikTok to go forward. But there's a lot of gray

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Speaker 2: area here because last night President Biden said he would

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Speaker 2: not uphold the laws. So this now throws it into

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Speaker 2: the lap of mister Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: So here's a problem with TikTok, right, And this is

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Speaker 1: what we've heard from the Gang of Eight, is that

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Speaker 1: there is clearly a lot of stuff going on behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes that China is doing.

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Speaker 3: With our data, and we don't even know the half

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Speaker 3: of it.

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Speaker 1: Right, There's a reason federal employees are not supposed to

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Speaker 1: have it. There's a reason people in the military are

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Speaker 1: not supposed to have it.

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Speaker 3: Right. There's clearly a lot here that we're not being told.

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Speaker 1: And then there is the incredible addictive quality of the algorithm,

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Speaker 1: more addictive than the very addictive Instagram. So there were

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Speaker 1: all sorts of reasons why, and we just have no transparency.

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Speaker 1: It's a company that is owned by the Chinese Communist Party.

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Speaker 1: They say that it's not, but it really is. It's

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Speaker 1: just this is very much bad, bad, bad, But Congress

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Speaker 1: doesn't want to legislate this because they just don't. Right.

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Speaker 1: They actually did legislate it. They legislated a ban, and

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Speaker 1: what happened was that TikTok got lobbyists and now maybe

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Speaker 1: there won't be a ban. I would also like to

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Speaker 1: add there's an app on the Appstore called red Note,

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Speaker 1: which is also has a Chinese providence, again the nuances

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Speaker 1: of which are not readily apparent, and that charted became

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Speaker 1: the top app. The fallacy here is you can't ban

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Speaker 1: just one of these apps, right, there's like a lack

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Speaker 1: of transparency here, and banning TikTok, the ideas if you

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Speaker 1: ban TikTok, you will then end up with something TikTok like.

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Speaker 1: I want to add that this band should go through.

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Speaker 1: This is one of the few times that this extremely

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Speaker 1: partisan Supreme Court, all nine of them, were like, shut

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Speaker 1: down the fucking app, and still people on the left

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Speaker 1: and people on the right were like, maybe not.

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Speaker 3: So do I think TikTok is going to get banned?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: Do I think that we're just going to continue on

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Speaker 1: as business as usual?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Is this a national security risk? Absolutely? Are millions and

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Speaker 1: millions of people. I mean, imagine if you allowed CBS

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Speaker 1: to be owned by the Chinese government, That's what this

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Speaker 1: is like. Imagine if ten times no, imagine if a

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Speaker 1: hundred times more people watch CBS and it was owned

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Speaker 1: by the Chinese government.

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Speaker 3: That's what we have here.

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Speaker 1: So real dereliction of duty on the part of almost

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Speaker 1: everyone except bafflingly, the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing I would say is it's almost

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Speaker 2: like these apps should be controlled by a nonpartisan body

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Speaker 2: and be seen in as a public work. But I'm

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Speaker 2: just going to stop putting my socialist views in here,

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Speaker 2: move on to the next subject.

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Speaker 3: Socialism quote unquote.

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Speaker 2: Continue quote unquote socialist. Yes, I know, wanted to make

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Speaker 2: sure free speech stays up. So there's been a lot

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Speaker 2: of bided statements on the way out of office. Burn

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Speaker 2: his last few days, and the first one was on

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Speaker 2: the Equal Rights Amendment. Molly, what are you seeing here

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Speaker 2: as somebody who this is near and dear to their heart.

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Speaker 1: The Equal Rights Amendment. Look, this is something it was ratified. Basically,

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Speaker 1: it's an interesting thing because it's something my mother fought

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Speaker 1: forward to. The thinking was that it was not so

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Speaker 1: crazy to have equal rights for women in the Constitution.

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Speaker 1: So Phylish Flaughley basically dismantled the er by spending all

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Speaker 1: of this time I'm trying to convince women that it

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Speaker 1: would prevent them from getting child support, and I mean,

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Speaker 1: just you know the kind of misinformation we see broadly

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Speaker 1: now in America. So I think very smartly. Senator Kirsten

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Speaker 1: Jilibrand was committed to trying to get the Senate Archivist

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Speaker 1: to read the er into the record and thus sort

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Speaker 1: of create a world in which it was part of

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Speaker 1: the Constitution. The Senate Archivist she just wouldn't do it

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Speaker 1: and refused. Instead of pushing her the way a Republican

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Speaker 1: might firing her and hiring someone else who would do it.

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Speaker 1: They Biden just let her refuse, even though Senator Jili

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Speaker 1: Brand had a really good point, which is it's actually

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Speaker 1: her interpretation of the Constitution is irrelevant, right, but didn't matter,

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Speaker 1: so she refused to read it. So instead Biden decided

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Speaker 1: and instead of forcing her, which is what a lot

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Speaker 1: of Democrats wanted, including what I wanted, he just did

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Speaker 1: this statement that said it's happened, which is very nice

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Speaker 1: and pretty but meaningless. Susan Glasser from The New Yorker

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Speaker 1: has a really smart take on it, and I think

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Speaker 1: this is correct. Biden ended his tenure with symbolic statements

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Speaker 1: about the er that does nothing for actual women, but

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Speaker 1: seems like a sad metaphor for where his presidency has ended.

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Speaker 1: Rovers's weight is gone, no national laws to help women

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Speaker 1: in place, Trump and a host of other sexual harassers

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Speaker 1: return to power, And you really do see how so

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Speaker 1: much of what has happened in this twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: cycle was about backlash to women and how Democrats were

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Speaker 1: just not able to do the necessary things to protect them.

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Speaker 1: And look, I mean, life is long and we'll see

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Speaker 1: what happens. But it certainly feels like a real It

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Speaker 1: just feels like a moment where again Democrats brought a

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Speaker 1: stuffed animal to a knife fight.

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Speaker 2: Agreed. So last night Friend of the Show MSNBC host

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Speaker 2: Lawrence O'Donnell hosted President Biden for an outgoing presidential interview,

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Speaker 2: and one of the things he said that really caught

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Speaker 2: you and i's eye is that how bad the Red

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Speaker 2: States really screwed the handling of their economies during the

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Speaker 2: COVID years, especially with supply chains.

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Speaker 1: I was watching these hearings today, the Christie Nome Homeland

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Speaker 1: Security hearings, and we saw Republicans like Bernie Marino in

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Speaker 1: the state of Ohio just grandstand and politic and he

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Speaker 1: even he asked Christy Nome if Lake and Riley would

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Speaker 1: still be alive had this is really what he asked,

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Speaker 1: had Alejandro Mayorcas not been Homeland Security Secretary. It could

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Speaker 1: truly craven bit of politicking. Right, would a nursing student

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Speaker 1: have been murdered had there been a different Homeland Security Okay?

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Speaker 1: But what head But what I think is interesting is

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Speaker 1: that Biden really tries not to do that. Democrats really

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Speaker 1: try not to politicize things. One of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: Trump was able to win. But he did criticize at

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Speaker 1: this moment with Lawrence Red States, and he said Red

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Speaker 1: States really screwed up in terms of the way they

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Speaker 1: handled their economy and the way they handled manufacturing and

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Speaker 1: the way they handled access to supply chains. That's why

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Speaker 1: he ended up investing more in Red States than Blue

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Speaker 1: states through various measures. Shortly after being asked about his

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Speaker 1: economic response to COVID, what I think is interesting about

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Speaker 1: this is we get back to the California problem.

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Speaker 3: Right. California, fourth largest.

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Speaker 1: Economy, pays way more into federal taxes than takes out,

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Speaker 1: is going to need billions and billions of dollars to

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Speaker 1: rebuild after these fires. Already we see Republicans trying to

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Speaker 1: play politics. If Republicans were to lose California, our entire

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Speaker 1: American economy would greater. And so I do think that

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Speaker 1: on behalf of all of us who pay taxes, Republicans,

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Speaker 1: please do not make California furious.

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Speaker 2: I'll say so, mai one. Speaking of the Lake and

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Speaker 2: Riley Act, Republicans are just downright giddy too. Get to

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Speaker 2: making sure that brown people get deported from this country

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Speaker 2: as much as possible, but ICE, who seem to usually

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Speaker 2: be on that side, are saying whoa, whoa, whoa, buddy,

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Speaker 2: chill out.

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Speaker 1: So ICE warms that Republicans racist immigration bill is a

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Speaker 1: total bust. By the way, what I think is interesting

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Speaker 1: is we're seeing a lot now of ICE sort of

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Speaker 1: trying I can't figure out who is trying to message

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Speaker 1: to who, but we are seeing some like I saw

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Speaker 1: this in this hearing today, Well, we're just going to

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Speaker 1: deport the criminals. We're not going to deport everyone. We're

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Speaker 1: seeing some of that. I'm very curious to know is

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Speaker 1: that because who is saying let's not deport everyone, and

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Speaker 1: who is saying let's deport everyone? And how is this

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Speaker 1: being acted out behind the scenes, Because clearly there is

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Speaker 1: some level of anxiety here that Donald Trump is just

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Speaker 1: going to go in and deport everyone and American citizens too.

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Speaker 1: And I think I'm clearly picking that up as an undertone.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things you have to remember is

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Speaker 1: like ICE agents are people, and if they're on television

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Speaker 1: holding screaming children and you know, deporting people, like we

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Speaker 1: live in a new world where everyone has a camera

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Speaker 1: and everyone has a video, and like during you know

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Speaker 1: historically when we have in this country in turned people,

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Speaker 1: like in World War Two when America in turned Japanese

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Speaker 1: people and took their houses. People didn't have iPhones, so

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the results were not as immediately tangible. And

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Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of Anxiet society here,

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Speaker 1: that people and ice are going to be asked to do.

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Speaker 3: These things, and that the blowback for them is going

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Speaker 3: to be.

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Speaker 1: Very tough, and rightly so, because I think they are

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Speaker 1: going to be asked to do these things. Stuart Stevens

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Speaker 1: is a legendary campaign manager and the author of the

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Speaker 1: Conspiracy to End America Five Ways My old Party is

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Speaker 1: driving our democracy to autocracy. Welcome back to fast politics, Stuart.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, we needed you before Trump two point zero

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Speaker 1: takes over.

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Speaker 4: Discuss I have a positive take on this.

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Speaker 3: Oh please, somebody has to have a positive take.

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Speaker 4: I believe that the moment they were in, exactly at

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Speaker 4: this moment, is the high order mark of trump Ism.

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Speaker 4: I think it will prove to be like my ancestors

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Speaker 4: and pickets charge, they almost get to the wall, but

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Speaker 4: can't get over the wall. You really have to be

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Speaker 4: careful here about drawing conclusions about this election.

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Speaker 3: Ooh, say more about that?

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, an incumbent president with a forty point approval rate,

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Speaker 4: and all the post World War two elections incumbent party

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Speaker 4: got within two points of the presidential approval. So Harris

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Speaker 4: actually overperformed that and you had a right track under

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Speaker 4: thirty percent. It's a very difficult environment to win an election.

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Speaker 4: You know. When I was working for Bush in two thousand,

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Speaker 4: we would track the right track, wrong track and moving

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Speaker 4: little movements in it in a race that was as

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Speaker 4: tight as the two thousand race, really made a difference.

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Speaker 4: I mean, in a typical race, you should get if

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Speaker 4: you're an incumbent, you should get ninety percent of the

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Speaker 4: right track, and if you're a challenger you should get

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Speaker 4: eighty five to ninety percent of the wrong track. So

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Speaker 4: that was a good environment for a challenger to beat

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Speaker 4: an incumbent party now, and that's what happened. I don't

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Speaker 4: think that should be confused with it being an active

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Speaker 4: embrace of trump Ism. I think there are two very

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Speaker 4: different things. I think this is how you end up

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Speaker 4: worshiping volcanoes. There's a drought, the volcano Belch is in,

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Speaker 4: it rains, and the next thing you know, you're worshiping

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Speaker 4: the volcano Guard. They're probably not related. And I just

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Speaker 4: don't think the country is where compassm is. And we

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Speaker 4: had an election unlike any other we've ever had and

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Speaker 4: combent president gets out in July, vice president comes in.

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Speaker 4: You know, probably we shouldn't try that again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and by the way, that that didn't work when

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Speaker 1: it was done historically either.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I still maintain I think the Harri's campaign ran

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Speaker 4: a very good campaign. I also think that it's a

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Speaker 4: mistake to look at all of the field operation that

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Speaker 4: they did and think that that is now no longer

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Speaker 4: beneficial or applicable to campaigns because she lost. To me,

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Speaker 4: that's like saying, Okay, we lost Vietnam. No more helicopters,

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Speaker 4: right right, right, that's it. I don't think we lost

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Speaker 4: because of the helicopters, and I don't think they lost

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Speaker 4: because of the field And I think she could have

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Speaker 4: gone Joe Rogan hourly and it wouldn't have impacted the election.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we don't need to talk about this election.

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Speaker 1: It's over, and maybe it's better just not. But I

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Speaker 1: just wonder Trump was forward facing for four years.

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Speaker 4: You mean talking about the future, not even talking.

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Speaker 1: About the future, just being on tell like being a

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Speaker 1: celebrity for four years, and you remember that that people

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Speaker 1: were Google searching the day of the election.

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Speaker 3: Is Joe Biden still in the race?

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Speaker 1: Like I wonder how much like in this New America,

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Speaker 1: you have to just be out there all day, every day,

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Speaker 1: no matter what.

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Speaker 4: That's interesting. One of the lessons the Democratic Party to

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Speaker 4: take from this is when you govern, you do have

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Speaker 4: to govern like you represent the whole.

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Speaker 3: Country, right, which they did well.

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Speaker 4: When you politic you don't.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that I think is the case.

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Speaker 4: In these hearings. That's not governing politics as a servant

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Speaker 4: of governing. But your first obligation in those hearings as

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Speaker 4: a Democrat is a political obligation. And I don't think

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Speaker 4: that you should worry at all about how it's going

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Speaker 4: to be received. Your message is going to receive by

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Speaker 4: those voters who are deep into Trumpism.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Like the cautiousness that we saw in twenty sixteen, right,

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Speaker 1: I'm not even talking about the candidate. I'm just talking

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Speaker 1: about the cautiousness, the Clinton cautiousness which then we saw

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Speaker 1: in Biden world, which Biden was able to eat out

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Speaker 1: a win with it in twenty twenty, perhaps because of

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Speaker 1: just how unpopular Trump was, But that cautiousness is not

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Speaker 1: how you win elections. And I think like when you

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Speaker 1: think about sort if you even just look at twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four and you look at Rubin, who was one

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Speaker 1: of the you know, who was able to win over

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Speaker 1: Trump voters.

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Speaker 3: He did that by just being ever are all the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But anyway, it's neither here nor there, or it's

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Speaker 1: not relevant anymore because there are no elections at least

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Speaker 1: until twenty twenty five. But I'm wondering if you could

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Speaker 1: talk to us about Trump is planning a kind of

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Speaker 1: shockun on on Monday and then this weekend. On today,

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Speaker 1: we just saw the mayor of New York go down

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Speaker 1: tomorrow lago.

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Speaker 3: That's ongoing.

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Speaker 4: I think the technical term for that is plea bargain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So in my mind there's a real question about

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Speaker 1: what happens next and what that looks like.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think you're right. I think you will do

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Speaker 4: shocking all and I think that as it begins to

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Speaker 4: take effect, it's not a majority of it's not going

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Speaker 4: to be popular in politics. I mean, I think it's

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Speaker 4: really important that you distinguished if someone says in a

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Speaker 4: poll that they're worried about immigration, they think that the

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Speaker 4: border is a problem, that doesn't mean that that is

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Speaker 4: what consumes them in their life. If you just ask them,

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Speaker 4: do you think it's a problem, yes. If you ask

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Speaker 4: me if terrorism bad, yes, walk around thinking about terrorism?

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 4: And I think that the mandate that Trump is trying

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Speaker 4: to take from that is going to be one that

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Speaker 4: is going to play into their instincts to overreact. And

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Speaker 4: we do have the reality that the economy is really good.

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Speaker 4: And what do they just like about the economy the most,

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Speaker 4: that record stock market or the record low unemployment. So

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Speaker 4: I just don't think that there is a broad mandate

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Speaker 4: for most of the stuff they want to do, if

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Speaker 4: you go back to two thousand and four. So we

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Speaker 4: want a very narrow election. I mean, if less than

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Speaker 4: half the people who attend to Ohio State home game

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Speaker 4: had changed their votes, we would have lost Ohio and

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Speaker 4: we would have lost the election. We being when I

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Speaker 4: was working for Bush, and what did Bush do? He

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Speaker 4: took that as a mandate and he went out and

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Speaker 4: tried to privatize social Security, and it blew up in

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Speaker 4: his face. There was not a desire to do that.

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Speaker 4: So I don't think that people like the headsets and

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Speaker 4: the Tulsi and the cash betel. I think the reason

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Speaker 4: Trump nominates these people, I think he knows they're idiots.

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Speaker 4: He nominates them because he wants to see senators humiliate themselves.

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Speaker 4: He wants to assert their subservience through the humiliation of

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Speaker 4: having to say things that are not true. And I

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Speaker 4: felt this so strongly watching my old friend and client,

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Speaker 4: Senator Roger Wicker, now Chairman of the Armed Services Committee,

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Speaker 4: in the headset hearings. I know Roger well. In many

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Speaker 4: ways we come from the same world. I don't think

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Speaker 4: Roger would hire PDX has to cut his law.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 4: I mean that literally, he wouldn't hire some weird guy

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Speaker 4: with the drinking problem was tattooed up to like be

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Speaker 4: that close to his house and yet here he is now.

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Speaker 4: He doesn't have to do that. And John McCain wouldn't

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Speaker 4: have done it. He would have insisted that Trump appoints

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Speaker 4: someone who was competent, you know, a competent conservative. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's not like you're asking to point Bernie Sanders Secretary

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Speaker 4: of Defense.

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Speaker 1: No, when you're watching that, because I watched it too.

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Speaker 1: There's like some congeniality and some like Senate congeniality, and

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Speaker 1: then there's a lot of like real weird grandstanding. Like

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Speaker 1: I was watching a hearing today where Bernie Marino blamed

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Speaker 1: the fires on Governor Gavenwsom. Like it's a sort of

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Speaker 1: hodgepodge of the kind of congeniality that the Senate once had,

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Speaker 1: plus like Fox News auditions.

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Speaker 3: I mean, is that what you're seeing?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, listen, I think the it's inevitable to watch a

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Speaker 4: hearing and not be frustrated if you are against the

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Speaker 4: person who's being nominated, because there is such an erratic

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Speaker 4: flow of questions and there's no coherent follow through you

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Speaker 4: have each individual senator. It's it's a very tough way

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Speaker 4: to prosecute somewhere. If every three minutes a new proecutter

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Speaker 4: had a step up in front of a jury and

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Speaker 4: take another new tack, the jury would just be confused.

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Speaker 4: You Know what I would have liked to have seen

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Speaker 4: Democrats do, still would is everyone ask two questions at

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Speaker 4: the beginning of their hearing. You believe that Joe Biden

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Speaker 4: want a free and fair election in twenty and if

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Speaker 4: the equivocator say no, they said, okay, doesn't matter what

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Speaker 4: else you say doesn't matter. You're disqualified. And do you

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Speaker 4: believe that the criminals who assaulted police officers in January sixth,

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty one should be pardon And if you're equivocated

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Speaker 4: and now you say that's it, you're disqualified.

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Speaker 3: But who would disqualify that?

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Speaker 4: You have to say that that disqualifies you from service

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Speaker 4: in this government. And I think it's about framing what

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Speaker 4: is the level here that is acceptable. So if you

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Speaker 4: look at Rubio, there's a level that I disagree with

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Speaker 4: you on public policy in a lot of ways, but

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Speaker 4: I think that you are an acceptable nominee for Secretary

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Speaker 4: of State. You may be a terrible one, you may

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Speaker 4: be a great one, but in keeping with advising consent,

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Speaker 4: I can, without a heavy contents vote for you. And

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Speaker 4: that should be the same consistent line in all of

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Speaker 4: these The obligation here for Democrats is to just remind

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Speaker 4: people that it doesn't have to be this way, that

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Speaker 4: there is a simple standard here that's not an egregious one.

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Speaker 4: Appoint competent people who aren't going to use these and

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Speaker 4: very important positions to work through their own personal issues.

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Speaker 4: When you go too much into the weeds of well

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Speaker 4: this discoff is that discollifies. It's easy to lose the

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Speaker 4: big picture that just you are a ridiculous nominee, you

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Speaker 4: are a basthoon, you're a weekend cable show host.

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Speaker 1: My theory of the case is they should just try

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Speaker 1: to figure out who are the most dangerous and go

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Speaker 1: all in. So, for example, I think about RFK Junior,

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Speaker 1: who obviously would have an enormous effect on the way

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Speaker 1: this country handles another pandemic for example.

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Speaker 4: Yep, if these nominated people were going to.

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Speaker 1: Die, So why when Democrats just focus on those candidates.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure that they're not doing that. I would

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Speaker 4: focus on Kennedy, Patel, Hegset and Gabbard. Yeah, what's interesting

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Speaker 4: about Kennedy is it's going to accelerate a divide in

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Speaker 4: the country because the people who are going to be

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Speaker 4: most damaged are going to be those who are less

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Speaker 4: informed and lower income, with the exception of the nutty

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Speaker 4: kind of whole foods moms that don't believe in vaccinations,

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Speaker 4: and that's in the same way in the pandemic. It's

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Speaker 4: the statistic that's provable that's demonstrable. That's true. Those in

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Speaker 4: red states who listened to Fox News died at a

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Speaker 4: higher rate. One of the mortality elements in that disease

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Speaker 4: was do you watch Fox News? I mean that's it's

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Speaker 4: sort of like the points on to a joke. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's really deadly to watch Fox News or something. Yes,

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Speaker 4: it was deathley, it did kill people. Why is Trump

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Speaker 4: doing this? I mean he's a guy who's you know, vaccinated,

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Speaker 4: everybody in his family's vaccinated. He doesn't believe this kooky stuff.

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Speaker 4: He does it to prove that he can, to make

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Speaker 4: you do it. This is how dictators operate, their need

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Speaker 4: to humiliate those that are serving under him. It's a

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Speaker 4: bad way to run a democracy.

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Speaker 1: Democrats are in a very tough position. The thing that

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Speaker 1: I was stripped by. I thought the best moments in

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Speaker 1: these hearings were when Democrats were very specific and they

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Speaker 1: said things like Bernie Sanders asking Scott Besson, who is

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Speaker 1: by far not the worst pick in any stretch of

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Speaker 1: the imagination, very quote unquote normal.

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Speaker 3: You know, worked for George Soros.

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Speaker 1: This guy is not ideologically maga whatever that means. So

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Speaker 1: question is, and he's gay, and you know, he's got kids.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's just a number of reasons why he

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Speaker 1: seems like probably one of the less terrifying choices. But

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Speaker 1: when Bernie Sanders asked him, did he believe that you

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Speaker 1: should raise federal minimum wage from seven to twenty five?

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Speaker 1: He said no, And then he sort of couldn't answer

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Speaker 1: these questions about Medicare Medicaid. Maybe he doesn't know what

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Speaker 1: they are, maybe he had you know, he's read Project

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: I mean, who knows.

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Speaker 1: But I thought those questions were the most effective because

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Speaker 1: part of what's happening here is that Democrats need to

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Speaker 1: explain to the people what Republicans are about to do,

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Speaker 1: because if they don't, Republicans will blame Democrats. And if

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Speaker 1: we've seen anything in the last four years, it's that

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Speaker 1: that actually works.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree, And that's the case in the minimum wage,

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Speaker 4: where the majority of the country supports raising the minimum wage.

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Speaker 4: You know, you can have a conversation should it be twelve,

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Speaker 4: should it be fifteen, but it's it's overwhelmingly popular. The

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Speaker 4: same with raising taxes on people who make more than

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Speaker 4: a million dollars a year. You know, all my life,

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Speaker 4: I've looked to polls that asked that question, and I've

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Speaker 4: never seen it lower than eighty percent.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: I have been really struck by the fact that Democrats

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Speaker 1: were able to lose on populism, right, Like Biden enacted

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Speaker 1: all this populist legislation and Republicans were like, we're running

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Speaker 1: a populist They're not.

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Speaker 4: I go back, and you know, there's this sort of

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00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 4: InVogue now for some reason to say that demographics are

439
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 4: our destiny. But Trump's support is non college educated white voters,

440
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 4: which is the fastest declining group in the country. And

441
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 4: I think a lot of these people are supporting Trump

442
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 4: driven not by ideology or by choice as much as

443
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 4: by race. And I don't think we talk about that enough.

444
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 1: Certainly that is what's going on too. But the fact

445
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: that Democrats were not able to capture populism when Republicans

446
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: entire goshtalt is about making sure these tax cuts for

447
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: billionaires stay in place, that feels like a real like.

448
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 4: It's a classic messaging failure. I don't really understand. Well,

449
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 4: you know, I don't understand the Republican Party, so god forbid,

450
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 4: I would understand the Democratic Party. But you know, there

451
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 4: are moments when I look at the Democratic Party and

452
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 4: I remember why as Republicans we won races we shouldn't

453
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 4: have won. And it goes to this larger question to framing.

454
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 4: I mean what I think had I been on that here,

455
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 4: I would have challenged Pete Texas patriotism. I wish for

456
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 4: ben It. I don't think you're a patriot. If you

457
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 4: support using military to fire on protesters, you're not. That's

458
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 4: not American. You're a disgrace. And I think you have

459
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 4: to use that kind of broad framing. Now you look

460
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 4: at a nominee like Harris, who I thought ran a

461
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 4: very good campaign, But she's not a candidate who is

462
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 4: going to emerge just biographically and otherwise as a populist

463
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 4: candidate per se. She is going to be seen as

464
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 4: something that most people would think was an extraordinary career,

465
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 4: which I think is positive. But it's not like she

466
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 4: rose up out of the desert like El sid to

467
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 4: claim this Mannle And I think there are a lot

468
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 4: of Democratic candidates out there who are governors, particularly who

469
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 4: do that better, you know, who aren't from San Francisco.

470
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 4: This is the kind of easy labels you could put

471
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 4: on someone my carrots, but you know, I thought her

472
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 4: speech capturing patriotism was really a roadmap for where Democrats

473
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 4: need to go, and I hope because she lost, they

474
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 4: don't abandon that.

475
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 3: Stuart Stevens, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you,

476
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 3: thank you.

477
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 4: Molly. I always listened to the show and always I'm

478
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 4: smarter for it. I think.

479
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: Sky Perriman is the president of Democracy Forward.

480
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 3: Welcome back to Fast Politics, Sky.

481
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 5: Well, thank you always for having me.

482
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: Explain to us what your organization does. Just for those

483
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: of us who don't remember from the last time you

484
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: were on.

485
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 5: Democracy Forward is a legal organization and we bring cases

486
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 5: and legal challenges against anti democratic actions that harm people

487
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 5: and communities across the country. We also do work on

488
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,239
Speaker 5: policy and public affairs and ensure that people can use

489
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 5: their voice in the most effective way in this pivotal moment.

490
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 3: So let's talk about what that looks like.

491
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 1: Right now we're about to go into Trump two point zero.

492
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 3: What does that mean?

493
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 5: Well, for us, it means that our work is scaling

494
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 5: and expanding, which, as you know, Molly, we've been doing

495
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 5: for the last three years, really bringing in some of

496
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 5: the best lawyers in the country, some of the best advocates.

497
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 5: Because of the threats to democracy that we see at

498
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 5: the state level, the threats to people. We just recently

499
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 5: blocked a big law in Arkansas that Sarah ha could

500
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 5: be Sanders signed that would have criminalized librarians. I mean,

501
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 5: that is the reality that communities are living in today.

502
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 5: But we know we're going to have a lot of

503
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 5: work to do because if the Trump administration this time

504
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 5: does what it says it's going to do, what it's

505
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 5: already been doing in these last few weeks, we know

506
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 5: that there will be a lot of need for legal

507
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 5: challenges to protect people's economic well being and keeping costs

508
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 5: down and protecting their wages, to protecting the ability of

509
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 5: the government to function in a way that is nonpartisan

510
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 5: and not sort of ideological with our civil service, to

511
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 5: protecting voting rights, and so much more.

512
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 3: So, let's talk about what that means.

513
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: You know, Trump had promised shock and all, So what

514
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: do we think shock and all looks like? And also

515
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: we're not going to predict the future because nobody knows,

516
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: but it does seem to me pretty strange that the

517
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: mayor of.

518
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 3: New York is in mar Lago and I have to

519
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 3: wonder where that goes. And you know, whether or not

520
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 3: he signs off on something. You know what that looks like.

521
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 5: Well, look, he's already said he's going to come in

522
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 5: and do a shotgun awe of executive orders, And yesterday

523
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 5: Politico reported that we at Democracy Forward and alongside lots

524
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 5: of partners, are going to be looking at those executive

525
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 5: orders the minute they come in and analyzing them. Your

526
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 5: listeners can go to Democracy twenty twenty five dot org,

527
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 5: which is an effort that we launched to get real

528
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 5: time information on inauguration day and on days throughout the

529
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 5: early Trump administration on what is happening with executive orders,

530
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 5: what legal challenges are going to be brought and will

531
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 5: be brought to address anything that is unlawful. And so

532
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 5: I think that you will see everything from a range

533
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 5: of kind of performative executive orders that will declare things

534
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 5: to shock in all people, to target communities, to executive

535
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 5: orders that will do real things that are problematic for people,

536
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 5: whether that is conditioning federal funding on the particular ideology

537
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 5: that the Trump administration has a kind of a far

538
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 5: right ideology, which they've said that they would maybe seek

539
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 5: to do to declaring or undermining our federal civil servants,

540
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 5: who are the people that do the work across the

541
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 5: country of our government for the American people doing something

542
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 5: to politicize them, to seeking to politicize the military. And

543
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 5: then of course we know on immigration that we will

544
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 5: see some type of shock and all action, and that

545
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 5: doesn't even touch foreign policy and some of the other

546
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 5: areas that we're watching. What we can do. We've seen

547
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 5: this play but before the Trump administration loss nearly eighty

548
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 5: percent of the time in court the last time we've

549
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 5: talked about this before. But looks like they've not learned

550
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 5: a lot of their lessons that many of the things

551
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 5: they're going to seek to do will have legal problems.

552
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 5: We and others are going to be there in court

553
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 5: on behalf of people and communities to make sure their

554
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 5: rights are protected.

555
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

556
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering what that looks like if we're trying

557
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: to protect people, for example, if they go in and

558
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: they just start taking people out, I mean, like, is

559
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: due process going to still happen? I mean, what's your

560
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: sort of guess on how you can push back against

561
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff.

562
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 5: There's a range of laws that have not actually been

563
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 5: rewritten yet by the US Supreme Court that really every administration,

564
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 5: you know, Republican Democrat, whoever is in office, has to

565
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 5: follow in order to you know, in order to be

566
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 5: able to institute policies or agendas, and that Trump administration

567
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 5: really often flagrantly disregards those. And so we've had a

568
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 5: lot of success, as have our partners, in suing and

569
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 5: winning when they disregard the law. That's a real thing.

570
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 5: And I think you've had folks on your show talk

571
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 5: about this. But the courts today, in terms of the

572
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 5: way the federal judicial landscape looks, the types of judges

573
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 5: that are on the court, that believe in the rule

574
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 5: of law, that believe that the court's fundamental role is

575
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 5: to protect our rights, not to reverse them. The federal

576
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 5: courts look better than they did on the last day

577
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,959
Speaker 5: of the Trump administration because of President Biden's historic record

578
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 5: on appointing federal judges and getting them confirmed that really

579
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 5: represent America. So I think the courts are going to

580
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 5: be a real front line. That's only the front line,

581
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 5: and it's going to take everybody using their voice, making

582
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 5: sure their members of Congress know understanding that this president

583
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 5: does not have some broad margins in the United States

584
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 5: Congress where he can ram an agenda through unless people

585
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 5: let him do that, and that that will be a choice,

586
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 5: and it will be a choice with political consequences. So

587
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 5: I think that it's going to take all of those

588
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 5: tools to make sure that we're really protecting the American

589
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 5: people and their well being in this time.

590
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: Jesse and I just did all this stuff about Project

591
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five during this summer, and one of the things.

592
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 3: That we were struck by was that a lot.

593
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: Of this like and I was listening to Russ Vought

594
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: nomination hearing this week, and you know, he's one of.

595
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 3: The architects of Project twenty twenty five.

596
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: He's going to run the Congressional Budget Office if he

597
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: gets appointed, which I think is very likely. He does

598
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that's sort of you know, he

599
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: knows how how Washington works.

600
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 3: He is an insider.

601
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: So he breaks a law in ways that or I

602
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: don't know, if he breaks a lot. He skirts the

603
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: law in ways that are very clever. And I'm thinking

604
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: about how they held the Ukraine money.

605
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about it many.

606
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: Ways, and which he said, and there are laws he's

607
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: planning to use this time about ways to sort of

608
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: control the purse and make and take that away from Congress.

609
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: I mean, how worried are you about that? And what

610
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: do you think the legal pushback is for that.

611
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 5: You know, they can try to do these things, But fundamentally,

612
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 5: I think that we're going to see in the legal

613
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 5: cases are going to show this, the reporting will show this,

614
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 5: and people's voices will show this. This is not an

615
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 5: administration that's shown that it's committed to the American people.

616
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 5: It's not an administration that's actually shown that it's committed

617
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 5: to hard working American people. You're already seeing that with

618
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 5: the fact that's seeking to operate some you know, shadows

619
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 5: situation having you know, billionaires who you know do not

620
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 5: have experience sort of advocating for the common good advising.

621
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 5: We're already just seeing a range of this stuff, and

622
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 5: so there are many laws that are implicated at democracy forward,

623
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 5: we successfully challenge the federal government's abrupt discontinuation of federal

624
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 5: funding to communities across the country that they sought to institute.

625
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 5: There's a lot of things on the funding side where

626
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 5: I think there are legal remedies that will need to

627
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 5: be exercised. And then there's a lot of things they

628
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 5: just can't do unless Congress approves it, and I think

629
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 5: there'll be a fight there. They are very shrewd. We

630
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 5: understand that, and I think, you know, you saw that

631
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 5: in the campaign where they sought to run a whole

632
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 5: campaign where they said that they didn't you know, they

633
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 5: were disavowing Project twenty twenty five. And then immediately when

634
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 5: they're elected they put the architects right in their administration

635
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 5: to accelerate it. But I think that and I do

636
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,479
Speaker 5: believe this. I think the American people will very soon

637
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 5: see this for what it is, and I think the

638
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 5: court and our Congress and other forums like that are

639
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 5: really going to have, you know, be part of that

640
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 5: exposure scene. They're going to have some choices to make.

641
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 5: I mean, there are a number of laws and policies

642
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 5: that are being challenged right now in court that really

643
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 5: help people in communities. I mean our privacy protections, healthcare

644
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 5: privacy protections, labor protections like overtime pay, and other important

645
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 5: policies that far right groups have sought to challenge. The

646
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 5: Department of Justice has been defending that the Trump administration

647
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 5: will not defend it's going to start showing I think

648
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 5: to people across the country, really what's at stake in

649
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 5: our everyday lives for all of us, And I think

650
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 5: that you'll see a real tide shift.

651
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, because I don't know what's going

652
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: to happen. It just feels like that voters are not

653
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: connecting with what this administration is going to do.

654
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 3: And you know there's a reason for that, right.

655
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you could sort of talk to us

656
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: about what democratic at the state level can do. So like,

657
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 1: for example, we're going to see a lot of executive orders.

658
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 3: We don't know what they are, but there are.

659
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: Certainly things that Democrats can do, and we've seen democratic

660
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,439
Speaker 1: attorneys general are sort are prepared for this moment. Will

661
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: you explain to us a little bit what's happening there?

662
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 5: Well, the attorney generals are already acting. I mean they're

663
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 5: already you've already seen them this week. Go seek to

664
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 5: intervene in cases where the Department of Justice is defending

665
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 5: you know, whether it's the Affordable Care Act or other

666
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 5: really important you know, elements of really important policies to

667
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 5: make sure that those cases have a strong defense. Because

668
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 5: we you know, the Trump administration is coming in and

669
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 5: will be leading the DOJ. And so you're already seeing

670
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 5: the attorneys general across the country act in that way.

671
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 5: And I think that they have definitely made clear that

672
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 5: if this administration, as have we have come in and

673
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 5: sign executive orders or take other actions that threaten people's

674
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 5: rights that threatened the ability of states to protect their people,

675
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 5: but the threatened people's rights overall, that you will see litigation.

676
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 5: And in the last administration, state ags played a critical

677
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 5: role in protecting the rights of people across the country.

678
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 5: I mean for even people that did not live in

679
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 5: the states where those ags were from. They litigated really

680
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 5: important cases, as did we, as did other organizations like

681
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 5: the ACLU and civil rights organizations and so many. It's

682
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 5: going to take everybody, but I do think that you're

683
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 5: going to see that this time again.

684
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the Supreme Court we saw with the

685
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: Trump sentencing. There is no reason why they should have

686
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: weighed on the Trump sentence, but you know, they do

687
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: have this very broad sense in which the president can

688
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 1: do whatever we want. Right Well, we'll remember their last

689
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: decision when it came to presidential immunity.

690
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 3: But I'm wondering there's a theory of the case.

691
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: Now and again, we have so little to go on,

692
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: so little to give us hope, but that this is that,

693
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: this is why I bring this up. There's a sort

694
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: of chance, very slim chance that Roberts and Cony Barrett

695
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: are at least a little bit won't totally represtamp everything

696
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: Trump wants to do. Do you think that's overly optimistic.

697
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 5: I don't. I think it's overly optimistic. I think it's

698
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 5: consistent with what we've seen in the courts for some time.

699
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 5: It's consistent with what we've seen just this week. And look,

700
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 5: I'm never going to tell you that the courts are

701
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 5: the silver bullet here. I mean, it is going to

702
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 5: take everyone in this country that believes in themselves, that

703
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 5: believes in their families and their communities and their future,

704
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 5: and that is committed to saying we are not going

705
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 5: to enable a far right agenda that is not for

706
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 5: working people, that is not for our schools, that is

707
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 5: not for our communities to pull this country back. You know,

708
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 5: you have to if you want to get that agenda three,

709
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 5: you're going to have to get it through our democracy.

710
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 5: And that means you're going to have to be able

711
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 5: to get it through the courts and get it through Congress,

712
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 5: and I think that, you know, we're really you know,

713
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 5: you know, I think that that's going to be a

714
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 5: big piece of this I certainly don't think the courts

715
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 5: are the silver bull here. And of course this Supreme Court,

716
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 5: you and I have talked about it a lot. This

717
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 5: Supreme Court has reversed the rights of people in many

718
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 5: ways over the last few years. But I do think

719
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 5: you will see the Supreme Court and the courts across

720
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 5: the country serve as an incredible check on a lot

721
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 5: of what this incoming administration is going to seek to do.

722
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 5: Because the incoming administration operates unlawfully and is pushing and

723
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,439
Speaker 5: a way of operating that is not consistent with our laws.

724
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 5: And so I think that it's not overly optimistic to

725
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 5: say that there will be some wins. I mean, that's

726
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 5: going to happen, but we will also need to make

727
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 5: sure that people who are not lawyers, who are not

728
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 5: involved in these cases, you know, don't give up hope

729
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 5: and really demand of their elected officials and of their

730
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 5: community members and of themselves that we are going to

731
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 5: ensure that this country is not on accelerating a backslide.

732
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: Right, we have seen judges do insane things for Trump

733
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 1: though over the last four years.

734
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 5: There's no question that this Supreme Court, that the decisions

735
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 5: that we've seen out of the Supreme Court, especially the

736
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 5: immunity decision, are really contrary in many instances to the

737
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 5: way that our laws have been interpreted for some time.

738
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 5: For the very founding principles of our country that was

739
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 5: founded to reject and throw off monarchy, I mean, you know,

740
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 5: there's no question about that. And so the fight this

741
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,959
Speaker 5: time is going to look different in that it's going

742
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 5: to require a high degree of collaboration among people that

743
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 5: are building cases through the courts, and communities that are affected,

744
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 5: and lawmakers at every level. Right, It's really going to

745
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 5: require all of us together. And that's not a talking

746
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 5: point and it's not a you know, Goldilocks kind of

747
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 5: naive image. This country can do this. I mean, we

748
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 5: have done it before in earlier times of our history.

749
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 5: But that is the pivotal moment that we're at and

750
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 5: the work that we're doing it democracy forward, and the

751
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 5: work that we have the privilege of seeing and working

752
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 5: with others that are doing in so many organizations and

753
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 5: communities across the country. Is really to make sure that people,

754
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 5: the American people have the tools that they need, the

755
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 5: legal tools they need, and the other tools they need

756
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 5: to meet this moment.

757
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm wondering if you can just talk to

758
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: us for like a little bit. Is it sort of

759
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: set up for people to be able to protest peacefully?

760
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: Are you worried that there hasn't been more protesting yet?

761
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: I mean, where are you with that? Because we did

762
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 1: have four years ago a lot of protests.

763
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 3: And it seems like that is not what's happening anymore.

764
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 5: I don't look at the presence or absence of sort

765
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 5: of protests in the streets right now as an indication

766
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 5: really of anything. I mean, to be candid with you,

767
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 5: I think that what we've seen is this is a

768
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 5: president that got elected telling people that he didn't know

769
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 5: anything about Project twenty twenty five. Pulling consistently has shown,

770
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 5: including you know, as he was being elected, that conservatives, liberals,

771
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 5: and independents all reject that extreme agenda you now have.

772
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 5: In the early stages of the transition, and throughout the

773
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 5: last few weeks a number of announcements that suggest they're

774
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 5: going to accelerate a Project twenty twenty five agenda which

775
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 5: the majority of the people do not want. We've seen

776
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 5: the final voting counts that show that the majority of

777
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 5: the voting public did not vote for Donald Trump.

778
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 3: He did win the.

779
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 5: Popular vote, but if you add up everybody that went

780
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 5: to the polls and who they voted for, you know,

781
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 5: the majority of them did not vote for Donald Trump.

782
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 5: The majority voted against them. So I think that really

783
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 5: this shows you that this is a moment and that

784
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 5: we're in It's not momentary. I think last time people

785
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 5: thought that this was he lost the popular vote. They

786
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 5: thought this was a fluke. You know, how could this happen?

787
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 5: But we are now seeing this extremism that has really

788
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 5: set in across the country because of groups like the

789
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 5: Project twenty twenty five, groups that are trying to wield

790
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 5: political power. Right, so we're in the middle of it.

791
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 5: This is an opposition that we are building and a

792
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 5: real path and plan for a better future that includes everyone,

793
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 5: not just some people, and not just the privilege, and

794
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 5: not just people who are politically loyal. And so I

795
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 5: think that the strategies this time are just different. I

796
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 5: think you will see people use their voices and protests

797
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 5: in more traditional ways. But I also think you're going

798
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 5: to see them in the courts, and I promise to

799
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 5: that the communities that we're working with, I think you're

800
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 5: going to see them in the courts. I think you're

801
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 5: going to see them demanding more of their elected representatives.

802
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 5: I think you're going to see this is about collective

803
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 5: power building and really leveraging the power of the American people,

804
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 5: their belief in a better future at this time to

805
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 5: stop some of this very extreme and radicalized policies that

806
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 5: we're hearing about.

807
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, thank you, Scot thank you.

808
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: No more Thickly Jesse Cannon s my junk fast Minnesota,

809
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 2: home to Governor Walls, who you and I have been

810
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: a fan of. There's fuckery going on there with the

811
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 2: State House trying to make sure that Governor Walls can't

812
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 2: enact any nice things like school lunches. Again, what are

813
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: you seeing?

814
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: And by the way, this is still happening in North

815
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: Carolina with Justice Riggs, right. I mean, this is kind

816
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: of a thing we're seeing everywhere, which is that these

817
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 1: Republicans are inspired by Trump's anti democratic rhetoric and by

818
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: the fact that it won for him.

819
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 2: But we should say. What's really nice is how many

820
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 2: people are showing up to fight back against justice. Riggs

821
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: is starting to work. It seems like the Griffin campaigns

822
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: backing down because the overwhelming populace is really showing up

823
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: and that is hope for us.

824
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is good one vote margin for two weeks.

825
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: The GOP claims that they can with that one vote

826
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: margin just do whatever the fuck they want.

827
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 3: Of course, I don't think we should be surprised.

828
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 1: By this, but it really is this kind of anti

829
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: democratic vein in the Republican Party, and luckily Governor Wallas

830
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 1: is on it.

831
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 3: Maybe he will come on the podcast next week and

832
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 3: talk about it.

833
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

834
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best

835
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If

836
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend

837
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going.

838
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.