Speaker 1: Okay, we're on the plane.
Speaker 2: Okay, on the plane, AI all thirty three. Good to
Speaker 2: be here, Good to be here.
Speaker 1: In late April, my husband and I traveled to London.
Speaker 3: Are you feeling nervous about going to the UK.
Speaker 2: For the first time?
Speaker 1: It's starting to hit me. Yeah, yeah, it's starting to
Speaker 1: hit me. I hope that it's not like the first
Speaker 1: time I went back to Italy. I had never been
Speaker 1: to the UK before, and frankly, I was really nervous.
Speaker 1: In the last eighteen years, the UK media has consistently
Speaker 1: vilified me. My definitive acquittal did not change that. But
Speaker 1: I wanted to take the opportunity to talk to more
Speaker 1: people about the Lucy let Be case. In the days
Speaker 1: that followed, I interviewed people in London and in Chester
Speaker 1: connected to the case, the Countess of Chester, Hospital and
Speaker 1: the NHS, meeting them on the ground and in person
Speaker 1: for the first time. I can't say that I'm super
Speaker 1: thrilled about going on Good Morning Britain. Keeping the Lucy
Speaker 1: let Be case in the public consciousness was also a priority.
Speaker 2: On the pre call you did with Good Morning Britain,
Speaker 2: the producer was like, so, why are you sticking your
Speaker 2: head above the parapet here is just like, essentially, I
Speaker 2: don't think she's wrong. It's like you are going out
Speaker 2: there into a position that you know people are going
Speaker 2: to want to snipe at you.
Speaker 1: Right well, I mean, I feel like that's exactly the
Speaker 1: position I need to be in in this situation. That's
Speaker 1: what people were doing for me back in the day.
Speaker 1: And now I'm putting myself there because I can. I
Speaker 1: can handle it, and I know that it's for a
Speaker 1: good reason. What is that reason to pay it forward
Speaker 1: and try to help get the truth out about someone
Speaker 1: else's life and these tragic cases. Wanting to get the
Speaker 1: truth out meant I did put my anxiety aside and
Speaker 1: appear on Good Morning Britain.
Speaker 4: There are families who have lost children who believe and
Speaker 4: in fact factually have conviction. Because Lucy let Be has
Speaker 4: a conviction for the murder and attempted murder of those.
Speaker 1: Babies, questions about the grieving families understandably did come up.
Speaker 4: So when you investigate whether that conviction is unsafe, how
Speaker 4: do you handle those sensitivities?
Speaker 1: For me, I approach this as a mother and what
Speaker 1: would I want as a mother? I want to know
Speaker 1: I want to know the how, I want to know
Speaker 1: the why, and I want to make sure that the
Speaker 1: people who are accountable for what happened to my children
Speaker 1: are held accountable. And so as I approach this story,
Speaker 1: I'm very very sensitive about protecting the privacy and the
Speaker 1: dignity of the families and the victims while pursuing a
Speaker 1: course of investigation that is very, very focused on the facts.
Speaker 1: It's about what do we know about this hospital, what
Speaker 1: do we know about these cases, and what can we
Speaker 1: say we know for sure as opposed to what is speculation.
Speaker 1: I also spoke to several UK podcasts about the let
Speaker 1: Be case, including Andrew Gold for his podcast Heretics and
Speaker 1: questions about family and parenting came up here too.
Speaker 5: I suppose it's a horrible question, but would you know
Speaker 5: if you were having another child and you knew that
Speaker 5: Lucy let Be was going to be the nurse at
Speaker 5: that hospital, would you take your would you do it there?
Speaker 1: I mean I would go to the Countess of Chester
Speaker 1: Hospital for sure, but if it was at a proper hospital.
Speaker 1: I think the evidence that has revealed about the quality
Speaker 1: of care that Lucy let Bee was giving to those
Speaker 1: children was that she was highly qualified and there isn't
Speaker 1: evidence to suggest that she intentionally harmed any of these babies.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I would trust my baby in Lucy Letby's care.
Speaker 3: That's quite something.
Speaker 1: This interview was heard by a couple in Cheshire, parents
Speaker 1: who had had direct contact with Lucy let be Having
Speaker 1: been silent for a decade, they reached out to me,
Speaker 1: ready to share the story of what happened to their
Speaker 1: baby at the Countess of Chester Hospital.
Speaker 3: We want us to know for sure if any of
Speaker 3: the things that had happened to her, which we thought
Speaker 3: weld just medical, had been induced by this person that
Speaker 3: was being accused of.
Speaker 1: Medi This is doubt the case of Lucy let be
Speaker 1: Bus Episode three. Claire and Carl, what was your first
Speaker 1: experience of birth?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Fine?
Speaker 3: Easy?
Speaker 6: Is anything? I didn't even know it was in There
Speaker 6: wasn't enough pain. We opened said you need to push
Speaker 6: and I was like okay, and he was fine and
Speaker 6: perfect natural, no problems went home the next day.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, And how about for the birth of your daughter.
Speaker 1: This is Claire who gave birth to her daughter at
Speaker 1: the Countess of Chester in May twenty sixteen, when Lucy
Speaker 1: lutb was at her supposedly most day dangerous and prolific. Yeah.
Speaker 6: I was admitted a week before and I had the
Speaker 6: same week after. The pregnancy was awful. She was transverse,
Speaker 6: which meant she was lying sideways, but she was up,
Speaker 6: she was down sideways, just kept spinning around. I was
Speaker 6: older as well, so they were a little bit concerned
Speaker 6: about that. The actual birth was in an emergency section
Speaker 6: and it was the most traumatic thing I've ever gone through.
Speaker 6: Why is that just the way it They just they
Speaker 6: came into monitor me and said, her heart ras isn't
Speaker 6: very good. I'm going to push the big red button.
Speaker 6: It's going to get very busy, very fast. And it did,
Speaker 6: and everyone flew in and they just said go on
Speaker 6: your side. Get on your side. They just said we're
Speaker 6: taking you for a section now, and I was like crying.
Speaker 6: They wanted to put me to sleep, and I said
Speaker 6: no because I want Carl to be there, because his
Speaker 6: only experience of being a father than birth. They eventually agreed.
Speaker 6: They put the sheet up and there's so many people
Speaker 6: in there, and I asked them when they're going to start,
Speaker 6: and they said, we already have. I was getting punched
Speaker 6: to death in my stomach. Her thought was going to
Speaker 6: throw up. I was sweated. She took forty seven minutes
Speaker 6: to get out. She was little, she was tiny, and
Speaker 6: they just took her straight to check her over. And
Speaker 6: that's when KRL came in, and then Kyl came back
Speaker 6: with her to me, and that's when the nurse came
Speaker 6: past and said, we got to take her. She's got
Speaker 6: national flare, and they just took her away.
Speaker 1: Nostril flairing babies is a sign of potential respiratory distress,
Speaker 1: a very serious condition in such a small baby.
Speaker 6: So when the nurse looked at her, because she was
Speaker 6: wrapped up so well, she just saw no shells really
Speaker 6: flaring and said, sorry, just took her off, Carl. And
Speaker 6: then a guy came in and said, here's a picture
Speaker 6: of her. You can see her shortly after recovery. Obviously,
Speaker 6: I was in a wheelchair and I went in to
Speaker 6: see her and she was on lying on the front
Speaker 6: with a bomb in the air, and she had a
Speaker 6: big mask on her face, a breathing mask, loads of wires.
Speaker 6: And I said to the nurse, should she be lying
Speaker 6: on a front And they were like, she's fine, she's
Speaker 6: monitored up to everything, and they said she was okay,
Speaker 6: she just can't get a big breath in. And it
Speaker 6: was actually Lucy that said that to us. She explained
Speaker 6: what was going on.
Speaker 1: Carl, Claire's husband, also recalls Lucy on the neonatal ward.
Speaker 3: Lucy left being very sharious, very quiet, just quietly doing
Speaker 3: what she needed to do. It looked like she was
Speaker 3: taking stats, so she was looking at the monitor, she
Speaker 3: writing things down, and then she spoke to us briefly,
Speaker 3: and then she went on I think she was to
Speaker 3: another baby in the corner, and then off off the room.
Speaker 1: At this point, their new baby daughter Jessica, had had
Speaker 1: a battery of tests, including X rays and a lumbar puncture,
Speaker 1: and was now on antibiotics in case of any infection.
Speaker 1: All normal procedures, but they were told one thing that
Speaker 1: was a cause for a little concern. She had had
Speaker 1: two so called pale moments.
Speaker 6: And I said, what are they in the sense where
Speaker 6: the stats druck on. We don't know why, but she's
Speaker 6: okay now, So I was like, okay.
Speaker 1: In the following days, Claire and her husband Karl, spent
Speaker 1: time between the maternity ward and the neonatal unit. And
Speaker 1: before we get to how Lucy interacted with their baby.
Speaker 1: We need to understand what conditions were actually like in
Speaker 1: Countess of Chester Hospital because those conditions, if you recall,
Speaker 1: are at the center of the alternate non criminal explanations
Speaker 1: for the increased deaths during this time. What was it
Speaker 1: like on the maternity ward at the time.
Speaker 6: Not very good, to be fair. It was really old,
Speaker 6: really hot, like ridiculously hot. The doors didn't work properly
Speaker 6: or the bathrooms weren't very good. There was loads of
Speaker 6: arguments between staff and people staying on the wards with families.
Speaker 6: There was police called, there was security there. It just
Speaker 6: didn't seem very professional.
Speaker 3: Old seventies buildings, automatic doors not working right, you have
Speaker 3: to knock on a window to get someone to let
Speaker 3: you in, you know that sort of thing. Lots of
Speaker 3: hustle and bustle, lots of noise, you know, lefts out
Speaker 3: of order. The thing that comes across the most is
Speaker 3: is there's a lot of staff complaining and they're not
Speaker 3: quiet about it. So because we were there for a
Speaker 3: week and a half or a little bit longer, these
Speaker 3: people just naturally get to know you and they're just
Speaker 3: telling you about the day and that it's nothing. Both well,
Speaker 3: this isn't working such and such as an in today,
Speaker 3: so we're understaffed, or we can't do that now because
Speaker 3: that unit's been shut down for a deep clean, so
Speaker 3: we've got everybody working on that, so you're not going
Speaker 3: to get this today. Like everything was a series of
Speaker 3: compromises that these people had to make every day because
Speaker 3: of either understaffed or under equipped, or the facilities themselves
Speaker 3: went working so they were waiting for a plumber to
Speaker 3: come in, or they were waiting for an electrician, so
Speaker 3: that area was out of use until then.
Speaker 6: And the actual saturday she was born, I actually woke
Speaker 6: up with contractions and I was like, this isn't good.
Speaker 6: So I got up and went to someone and said
Speaker 6: I'm having contractions and they went, oh, wow, well done,
Speaker 6: and I was like, no, no, this isn't good. I
Speaker 6: can't have a naturally, you know, a foot might come
Speaker 6: out or she's lying the wrong way, and they just
Speaker 6: walked away, so I was like, I need to find someone.
Speaker 3: I wasn't shocked that they were all rushed and that
Speaker 3: we were understaffed, or shocked that they were people to
Speaker 3: answer questions. Was just that's just part and part of
Speaker 3: what happens when you go through the NHS system.
Speaker 1: What was it like when you went down to visit
Speaker 1: the neonatal unit.
Speaker 3: The way it's laid out is there's a room which
Speaker 3: is very very dark to keep the lights very low,
Speaker 3: and I think that's the room where they have like
Speaker 3: the sickest children.
Speaker 6: It was very very busy. They were like shooting everywhere
Speaker 6: the staff and there was monsters going off and that
Speaker 6: room was kind of quiet, but there were nurses just
Speaker 6: like going everywhere. There never still ever and they said,
Speaker 6: she's fine, she's fine, she's doing well. That was the
Speaker 6: first night. The second night she was out of there
Speaker 6: into a separate room in a cot, no dome over it,
Speaker 6: still wired up on the monsters to check our stats
Speaker 6: all the time.
Speaker 1: What would you say The vibe of the atmosphere.
Speaker 6: Was like it seemed very intense, very stressed. The atmosphere
Speaker 6: seems like you cut it with a knife sort of thing.
Speaker 3: It was very god you know.
Speaker 6: I mean we sat there with Jessica and a cart
Speaker 6: and monitors going off behind us and nurses rushing everywhere,
Speaker 6: and they're saying, oh, this baby keeps stop breathing. We
Speaker 6: don't know why.
Speaker 3: And I was like, oh my god.
Speaker 6: You know, it was very not inappropriate, but very high.
Speaker 6: I didn't want to sit there and witness that. I know,
Speaker 6: we're in a room with poorly babies, but I was like,
Speaker 6: oh gosh.
Speaker 1: Did it seem like the nurses knew what to do?
Speaker 6: Yeah, they did too fair.
Speaker 1: One of the things that the nurses brought up was
Speaker 1: a small detail, but knowing what follows is possibly a
Speaker 1: huge clue as to what was going on on the unit.
Speaker 6: They had a fright because they went to weigh her
Speaker 6: and she was like five pounds and we told us
Speaker 6: that she was six pound three when she was born,
Speaker 6: so she's lost a lot of weight very quickly. But
Speaker 6: they went and checked with a delivery room to make
Speaker 6: sure and their scales were out. I was like, wow,
Speaker 6: so many babies have got the wrong weight right now,
Speaker 6: all these babies been born, they've got the wrong weight,
Speaker 6: which is important with a newborn.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the buttons on what kind of food you give them,
Speaker 1: what dation you give them? Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was just shocked.
Speaker 6: Really, I was like, this really important part of a
Speaker 6: newborn baby is like how much they weigh to how
Speaker 6: much are they gaining weight? Are they losing weight, how
Speaker 6: much feed do you give them, how often you feed them,
Speaker 6: you know, things like that. I just couldn't believe it, really,
Speaker 6: for in a neonatal unit. Does it not work? You know,
Speaker 6: it's it's just ni bizarre.
Speaker 1: So if the scales were out on the maternity ward,
Speaker 1: could that mean the babies we know who died from
Speaker 1: overfeeding could have been saved? Eventually, thankfully, baby Jessica recovered.
Speaker 3: Lucy Leppie was the one who brought Jessica up to
Speaker 3: our room in the ward when she was free out
Speaker 3: of the need you to come up and sit with us,
Speaker 3: so she delivered it to us and that was a
Speaker 3: very short, quick interaction as well. She's just, you know,
Speaker 3: here's your baby kind of thing. She's all yours. My
Speaker 3: experience is very different than my wife should see, very
Speaker 3: very traumatic time for Claire, but for me it was
Speaker 3: like one of the best times of my life because
Speaker 3: my daughter's coming into the world and I thought everything
Speaker 3: was okay. So those that week and a half for
Speaker 3: me was really just filled with I can't wait to
Speaker 3: get at home and you know, make sure Claire was
Speaker 3: recovering quickly.
Speaker 1: How did it feel when you were able to go home?
Speaker 6: After Jessica finished around TOI Biotics and got the all clear,
Speaker 6: it was that she just like couldn't wait to get home,
Speaker 6: you know what I mean, just wanted to leave and
Speaker 6: never come back hever. And I got home, I just
Speaker 6: literally be put down. I just need to go outside
Speaker 6: and sit down outside and just give meself five minutes
Speaker 6: to say I'm home, you know. Yeah, it was really nice.
Speaker 3: To be here.
Speaker 1: Two years later, it's twenty eighteen and Jessica is growing
Speaker 1: healthy and happy. There had been some issues with her breathing,
Speaker 1: but she had recovered. Well, do you remember when you
Speaker 1: first heard that there was a case at the hospital
Speaker 1: against Lucy letb.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: My sister in law sent me a message said have
Speaker 6: you seen this? And I read it and I was like,
Speaker 6: oh my gosh.
Speaker 3: When you hear news like that, you go I knew
Speaker 3: there was something going on in that unit, but we
Speaker 3: didn't know what at the time. You just get a
Speaker 3: feeling for there's something wrong, there's attension in it in
Speaker 3: a place, you know. But again, because my experience has
Speaker 3: been reasonably positive, I hadn't thought about it and dwelled
Speaker 3: on it as much as Claire. So when the news
Speaker 3: came out. It more affected Claire more than me, really,
Speaker 3: and it's.
Speaker 6: Sprung to my mind that these pale moments that she
Speaker 6: had that couldn't be explained, which I found very strange
Speaker 6: considering I thought these people in the hospital where it's
Speaker 6: that unit were specialized in very sick children babies.
Speaker 3: My attitude was, she's here, she's happy, she's healthy, We're lucky.
Speaker 3: We don't need to be involved, you know.
Speaker 6: I said, well, I need to find out because you
Speaker 6: didn't sit with me.
Speaker 3: Well, we wants to know for sure if any of
Speaker 3: the things that had happened to which we thought were
Speaker 3: just you know, medical had been induced by this person
Speaker 3: that was being accused of Maurer because just like everybody
Speaker 3: else and the way the media portrayed it, we just
Speaker 3: jumped to the conclusion that she must be guilty. Why
Speaker 3: would you were arrested women for that, you know, if
Speaker 3: you didn't have proper evidence, and then the news are
Speaker 3: saying there's a confession and all the rest of us.
Speaker 3: So he's just like, well, this person has been in
Speaker 3: extremely close proximity to my daughter at the time that
Speaker 3: she was extremely ill. We did want to know if
Speaker 3: she would be involved in the investigation and that's when
Speaker 3: we reached out to the police.
Speaker 6: I emailed them, I said, the only reason is because
Speaker 6: she had these two pale moments and they won't explain
Speaker 6: to me why, And they just came back and said, well,
Speaker 6: look at her file.
Speaker 1: The police, working on Operation Hammingbird, agreed to investigate Jessica's
Speaker 1: file to find out if any intentional harm had been
Speaker 1: done to their baby by lucy LETB. Did you have
Speaker 1: any particular feelings about Lucy let be at the time
Speaker 1: when you when you heard about all of this.
Speaker 6: I at the time, I was like, first off, I
Speaker 6: couldn't believe it because they were so busy. Where they
Speaker 6: find the time, they always be together, there's always two nurses,
Speaker 6: So it's like, how on earth that could have possibly happened.
Speaker 6: I don't know, you know, because literally they were everywhere
Speaker 6: there was nurses just together, flip flip flip flipped to
Speaker 6: different things. And then I was like obviously concerned that
Speaker 6: something could have happened to Jessica and I wanted to
Speaker 6: know why. But the only interaction I had with at
Speaker 6: firstly was that very first I said, this is what
Speaker 6: we've done to her. I'm bringing her back to our
Speaker 6: room the police.
Speaker 1: The actually came back to the couple. Having gone through
Speaker 1: Jessica's file, they say there is no need for further investigation.
Speaker 1: Jessica will not be a part of the case against
Speaker 1: Lucy let Be.
Speaker 6: Really relieved obviously, like thank goodness, but then still had questions,
Speaker 6: really like if she's not being investigated, why does she
Speaker 6: have these moments where has start dropped for no reason
Speaker 6: at all.
Speaker 3: It didn't matter to me because she's here, she's happy,
Speaker 3: she's healthy, she's got a great mind, she's completely just
Speaker 3: everything you could ever want out of a child. So
Speaker 3: it was like, all's well, that ends well, was my
Speaker 3: kind of feeling. At that point.
Speaker 6: We thought, okay, we're done. Then it came out again
Speaker 6: in socials and the news that she was accused of
Speaker 6: more cases. So I thought to myself, well, if they
Speaker 6: missed that first time around, maybe they missed my daughters.
Speaker 6: So I said, look, I'm not happy, like, obviously new
Speaker 6: information has come out, so reinvestigate my daughter.
Speaker 1: In light of Lucy let Be's second arrest, Operation Hummingbird
Speaker 1: agreed to take another look at baby Jessica's file. They
Speaker 1: also make Claire and Carl an unexpected offer.
Speaker 6: Would you like to meet with the head of the
Speaker 6: hospital on the head of pediatrics and they can go
Speaker 6: through what happened to Jessica while she was in the unit.
Speaker 6: And I said perfect. And I said, okay, we'll arrange
Speaker 6: that you'll pay from the Countess in the next few days.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that. Meeting at the hospital.
Speaker 3: Very much was a please don't sue. His meeting was
Speaker 3: the field. You know, we haven't done anything wrong. Don't worry.
Speaker 3: Your child was not in any way involved. Oh but
Speaker 3: by the way, she did have all these things done
Speaker 3: to her and you should know them already. It was
Speaker 3: a very dismissive attitude. Tools it was like, well, don't worry,
Speaker 3: she's fine, was the takeaway that they were trying to
Speaker 3: give it.
Speaker 6: One of them was head of the hospital and the
Speaker 6: one was the head of pediatrics. The head of pediatrics
Speaker 6: had a piece of paper with him and they said,
Speaker 6: I've got a list here of what happened to Jessica
Speaker 6: while she was missed onto the unit. I said, okay, yeah,
Speaker 6: read it outgrade. So they said she had what we
Speaker 6: was told. And then he said she needed to be
Speaker 6: intribated and have medicine put into her lungs to help
Speaker 6: her breathe, and we were like what and said, well,
Speaker 6: it says it parents informed and we were like, no,
Speaker 6: we were not informed at all because both of us
Speaker 6: just went oh, said you put oh, my gosh. Then
Speaker 6: the head of hospital said, well, she was the sickest
Speaker 6: baby in the unit for twenty four hours.
Speaker 1: Or she.
Speaker 6: I said, if I knew that, I wouldn't have left
Speaker 6: her side.
Speaker 3: We weren't told.
Speaker 1: In a meeting lasting forty five minutes, Claire and Carl
Speaker 1: finally get their answer as to why their baby had
Speaker 1: suffered pale moments.
Speaker 6: They said, well, a baby with reflux, if they lie
Speaker 6: in the back, they hold the breath on the stats
Speaker 6: druck and I said, if I knew that, then I
Speaker 6: wouldn't be here now. No one in a unit that
Speaker 6: worked with sick babies, who are specialized in looking after
Speaker 6: sick babies could tell me that.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 6: And he was like, well, that's what happens with the baby,
Speaker 6: broomy flops. They just hold the breath.
Speaker 1: And at the same time, they learned that the woman
Speaker 1: who was accused of being a serial killer of babies
Speaker 1: had complete access and control over the health of their newborn.
Speaker 6: And he was like, oh yeah, you know, quite blase
Speaker 6: about it. They said, oh, I know all the things
Speaker 6: in immediate at the moment about you know, certain staff members.
Speaker 6: But she was herly nurse and she went through all
Speaker 6: the right procedures to get help. So I sat there
Speaker 6: and I was like, wait, wait, you're telling me that
Speaker 6: the person in the media do you see that be
Speaker 6: was Jessica's lead nurse. And twice she had to call
Speaker 6: for help because she was going to die unless someone
Speaker 6: came to help. So she went all through the correct
Speaker 6: procedure and called the right people, did the right thing
Speaker 6: twice over two days.
Speaker 3: The revelation that this so called serial color had saved
Speaker 3: our child's life twice like an angel, without our knowledge,
Speaker 3: never asking nor telling us that you've done it. Never
Speaker 3: you know, it wasn't like she was trying to look
Speaker 3: at me, I'm the greatest nurse in the world. He
Speaker 3: didn't even tell us that she was their lead nurse.
Speaker 3: She just got on and did their job to the
Speaker 3: best of her ability. And now I have my daughter
Speaker 3: because of that. So this just doesn't make sense. You know,
Speaker 3: whenever we talk about any part of this, it alway
Speaker 3: comes back the same question. It just doesn't make logical sense.
Speaker 3: And when things don't make sense, it's usually either missing
Speaker 3: information or somebody's telling well not the other.
Speaker 6: You know, how is it possible that she's been accused
Speaker 6: of randomly going around these babies, but then sees my
Speaker 6: baby and does everything else she should have been trained
Speaker 6: for and saved her twice. She didn't do that, Jessica
Speaker 6: wouldn't be here, you know. She could have said nothing,
Speaker 6: you know, and nature take its course. But she didn't.
Speaker 6: It's so hard to get that round my head because
Speaker 6: it's like she was accused of being the serial killer,
Speaker 6: and I was like, well, why did she saved my
Speaker 6: daughter's life twice?
Speaker 1: Operation Hummingbird came back to the parents and confirmed again
Speaker 1: that there was no need to investigate Jessica's case.
Speaker 6: I asked the police, why do you think she left
Speaker 6: Jessica alone if she did do stuff? And she said
Speaker 6: lack of opportunity. I said, lack of opportunity. But she
Speaker 6: saved her life twice. That's a perfect opportunity right there
Speaker 6: if she wanted, but she didn't. She saved twice, and
Speaker 6: apparently Carl said he remembered the second intervention, Lucy actually
Speaker 6: did something to Jessica to help her before the consultant
Speaker 6: came in. So she more than just did the procedure,
Speaker 6: but she actually did something to her to help to
Speaker 6: save her. So I couldn't get that around me as
Speaker 6: a lack of opportunity. So nah, that's not an answer.
Speaker 1: For this family. The revelation that this supposed serial killer
Speaker 1: had gone above and beyond to save their child had
Speaker 1: a huge effect.
Speaker 6: I felt guilty for not being there for Jessica because
Speaker 6: it should have been at a bob And then I
Speaker 6: felt very guilty that in a way she survived on
Speaker 6: the other's died, so that stayed would be for a
Speaker 6: very time. I had nightmares, anxiety, really bad anxiety about her,
Speaker 6: the fear of losing her.
Speaker 3: All the time.
Speaker 6: I wouldn't leave her of anyone, didn't trust anyone. I
Speaker 6: wouldn't leave her with any medical person again by herself
Speaker 6: ever her or Dad is with her. After I found
Speaker 6: that out, that that's where the nightmare started of this
Speaker 6: losing her, you know, the loss of nearly losing her,
Speaker 6: people nabbring her, taking her, you know. It was it
Speaker 6: was really not a good time. I say it was
Speaker 6: a relief, but at the same time, it still didn't
Speaker 6: sit with me at all very well. It still bothers
Speaker 6: me now. I still got upsseessed about it. Now that
Speaker 6: shouldn't happen.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 6: I tried to talk to counselors about it. They don't
Speaker 6: seem interested in it. It's like they don't want to
Speaker 6: talk about it.
Speaker 1: Why not?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 6: I really don't know. I say to them, this is
Speaker 6: like what's happened in the last few is to me
Speaker 6: to make me feel quite sad or anxious. It is
Speaker 6: the anxiety that gets me. And I bring up Lucy,
Speaker 6: and I bring up the hospital and I just don't
Speaker 6: ever touch base on it.
Speaker 1: And these are just like therapists that you reach out to.
Speaker 1: Just people don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 6: I say, this has happened, you know that's happened, and
Speaker 6: I just never it's never talked about. Probably too frightened too.
Speaker 1: I don't know, how do you cope with all of this?
Speaker 1: Like it's almost like you have insider knowledge that other
Speaker 1: people don't have. Like is that strange? How do you
Speaker 1: cope with all of this?
Speaker 6: It's very frustrating when you're trying to give your information
Speaker 6: to help. Maybe I send an emails to the court
Speaker 6: when she was in trial to say, like, the scales
Speaker 6: were wrong, that's why overfeeding babies. Maybe that was why.
Speaker 6: Because I hate unfairness. I really do a simple thing
Speaker 6: like if they said, oh, this baby has dropped so
Speaker 6: much weight, let's get loads of milk in it, and
Speaker 6: then like you ever had that baby, Well, yeah, of
Speaker 6: course it is because your scales. Hospital scales are wrong
Speaker 6: in a neonatal unit. Call it this big email to
Speaker 6: Operation Hummingbird, and they basically said, well, she's been investigated
Speaker 6: twice and there's nothing there. It's like, no, you're not listening.
Speaker 6: It's not about her, it's about the hospital.
Speaker 3: I've got this idea that this potential serial color has
Speaker 3: saved my child. I'd say over ninety percent sure that
Speaker 3: they've blamed bad management and bad siege us and badly
Speaker 3: run units on one individual. Is she an opportunity to
Speaker 3: escape out somebody? I feel I don't believe for one
Speaker 3: minute that there's an individual out there who's capable of
Speaker 3: murdering one baby and then passing up on the opportunity
Speaker 3: to murder another twice. Maybe people can be that crazy.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know. I hope not, but
Speaker 3: it doesn't make any sense to me. You know, I'd
Speaker 3: love to just sit down with Lucy and say, look,
Speaker 3: what happened that day, Why did you do what you
Speaker 3: did and why didn't you hear to if that's what
Speaker 3: you did. I said this to me, the only person
Speaker 3: that could add to that question for it is Lucy.
Speaker 3: If she is guilty, and if she's not guilty, then
Speaker 3: I don't believe a word that came out of the
Speaker 3: hospital's mouth anyway.
Speaker 1: Over the years, as more information came out about the case,
Speaker 1: doubt and confusion continued to grow for this couple.
Speaker 6: I asked the head of the hospital when we had
Speaker 6: that meeting at the time Jessica went into that unit,
Speaker 6: did you have any idea or any knowledge that anything
Speaker 6: were untoward was going on in that unit? Because if
Speaker 6: you did, you purposely knowingly put our daughter's life at risk.
Speaker 6: Does that be like base, wouldn't it? And he was like, nope, nothing,
Speaker 6: didn't know a thing. After we watched that documentary, I
Speaker 6: was like, they lied so bad because they absolutely knew,
Speaker 6: They absolutely knew way before Jessica went in there, that's
Speaker 6: something was going on and put her in there and
Speaker 6: lied about it, So I said to Carl. For all
Speaker 6: we know right now in that meeting, that could have
Speaker 6: been all wise.
Speaker 3: It's all about saving themselves from being sued or you know,
Speaker 3: bad press. They'll tell you anything to make you walk
Speaker 3: away happy. So I can't. We don't even know if
Speaker 3: Lucy actually did save our child. We think she did
Speaker 3: because it says so in the notes, but I don't
Speaker 3: know if I can even trust the notes. At this point.
Speaker 3: We're left in it like this limbo of who do
Speaker 3: you believe? Because the hospital can't be trusted, the police
Speaker 3: can't be trusted, Nobody seems to be interested in finding
Speaker 3: out what really happened anyway, apart from independent people like
Speaker 3: you said, It feels like the administration and everybody else
Speaker 3: involved and the media just decided that's she's guilty, and
Speaker 3: we're just going to make that fit however we can.
Speaker 3: How if we hear opposing opinions that we're just going
Speaker 3: to keep them quiet and push them off the way.
Speaker 3: That's what it feels like has happened.
Speaker 1: I really can empathize with your determination to know the
Speaker 1: truth of what happened, and it seems odd to me
Speaker 1: that someone would suggest to you well, what do you care?
Speaker 1: Your kid's fine? Can you talk to me about like
Speaker 1: how you manage that almost confrontation, like do you feel
Speaker 1: like people are questioning your motives?
Speaker 6: Or like I just say were you there? And they're like, no,
Speaker 6: I was. We were, so you didn't see the things
Speaker 6: we see. We didn't go through what we went through.
Speaker 6: You haven't been told that your child need die twice,
Speaker 6: but I suppose to say, real killer that saves a
Speaker 6: life twice, So you can't possibly imagine or start to
Speaker 6: imagine how it is for us, and the fact that
Speaker 6: if it comes out something different, could you sit there
Speaker 6: and obviously say someone's been in prison and been found
Speaker 6: innocent or whatever, and who saved our daughter's life twice?
Speaker 6: If we did nothing about it. We didn't stand shout
Speaker 6: up and say look this happened. There's events that happened
Speaker 6: that shouldn't have in the hospital. We don't sit well
Speaker 6: with that. We'm just telling our story, our experience of
Speaker 6: what happened to us whilst we were there with our
Speaker 6: daughter and afterwards when we had interaction with the hospital,
Speaker 6: because no one really listens to those stories. They want
Speaker 6: to hear the sad ones or the horrid ones or
Speaker 6: the pretty ones or you know ones that gets more
Speaker 6: interested in my eyes?
Speaker 1: How did you feel about the families of the lost
Speaker 1: babies at this time?
Speaker 6: It's like a survivor's guilty. She's my respare put at
Speaker 6: a cost of do say theirs and I want to
Speaker 6: do help you feel. I just couldn't bear it. It
Speaker 6: still upsets me to this day because I don't it
Speaker 6: to happen to my children. I'll never recover ever. Yeah,
Speaker 6: that's what I mean. It's like they've gone through so
Speaker 6: much for so long I can say I feel really
Speaker 6: really sorry for and you always will always.
Speaker 1: The tall Unclaire and Carl has been great, even for
Speaker 1: a family who were lucky enough to have been able
Speaker 1: to bring their child home safe. I want to thank
Speaker 1: them for sharing their story with me, but also the
Speaker 1: many people who have shared their personal stories and comments
Speaker 1: as well. Next week we meet with Mark MacDonald and
Speaker 1: David Davis in London to hear more about their involvement
Speaker 1: in the Lucy let Be case. That's next week on
Speaker 1: Doubt the Case of Lucy let Be. Doubt the Case
Speaker 1: of Lucy let Be is brought to you by Vespucci.
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts and Knox Robinson Productions. I've been your Host
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox. This episode was written by Isis Thompson. The
Speaker 1: producer was Isis Thompson. The assistant producer was Amy Gill.
Speaker 1: Senior producer is Natalia Rodriguez. The sound designer is Chandler Mays.
Speaker 1: The theme music was written by Tom Biddle, story editing
Speaker 1: by Natalia Rodriguez. Legal advice for the series was provided
Speaker 1: by Jack Browning. The producers at iHeart Podcasts are Chandler
Speaker 1: Mays and Katrina Norville. The executive producers were Joe Meek,
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, Daniel Turkin, and Johnny Galvin ac