1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here, 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: and we here at Breaking Points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent 6 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, 7 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: it means the absolute world to have your support. What 8 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: are you waiting for? Become a premium subscriber today at 9 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: Breakingpoints dot Com. Matt Tyby. Always a pleasure to see you, sir. 10 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: Good to see you as well. So I was wondering 11 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: from you, now that we've had you know, your pieces 12 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: come out, Shallenberger's pieces come out, Barry's pieces come out? 13 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: What did you think was the sort of most significant, 14 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: most troubling, most interesting revelations that came out of the 15 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: quote unquote twitter files. I think there are two things 16 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: that are the most significant. Probably the first one is 17 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: what happened what Barry did in her first thread, which 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: basically just confirm what everybody knew, but revealed concretely that 19 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: you know that there is such a thing as shadow banning, 20 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: and not only does it exist, but they have an 21 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: extraordinarily idiosyncratic system that basically allows these companies to have 22 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: virtually unlimited control over the visibility of any account, person, 23 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: hashtag anything. They can dial it down all the way 24 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: to zero, you can't be searched, and all the way 25 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: up to amplify to the max. And she showed that, 26 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: you know, the screenshots of things like Trends Blacklist. It's 27 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: incontrovertible proof. The other thing, though, the thing that turns 28 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: me on about this story, is the proof now in 29 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: writing that the government, you know, specifically agencies like the 30 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: FBI and the DHS, are not just generally making recommendations 31 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: about content moderation. They are doing it at a micro level. 32 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: Like we're seeing tons and tons and tons of these 33 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: communications that say, the FBI flag this, the DHS flag that. 34 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: They are buying information in bulk, analyzing it, flagging it, 35 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: sending it back to companies like Twitter for moderation. And 36 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: there's no question they're doing that. They're not doing it 37 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: in pursuit of charging a crime. They're doing it because 38 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 1: they are in the censorship business. See, I completely agree. 39 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: We highlighted the l roth meetings with the FBI, the 40 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: weekly meetings in many of these cases with these security agencies. 41 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: That seem to be one of the biggest takeaways there 42 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: from the story. On top of that, Matt, you got 43 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of color. What was it like wading 44 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: through their communications of just how capricious the nature of 45 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: all the decision making inside the company was. Did it 46 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 1: astonish you or did it just confirm what you thought? 47 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: I think it's astonishing. I think it speaks to probably 48 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: some thing sets in, you know, in any environment where 49 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: a bunch of people are doing the same job and 50 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: you get in or to kind of the morality of 51 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: what you're doing. You see all these communications where somebody says, oh, 52 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: we got a flag from the state of California by 53 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: way of the Stanford Election Integrity Project. Let's see why 54 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: don't we bounce that for twelve days and then reduce 55 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: visibility part way, you know what I mean? Like they're 56 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 1: making these decisions about, you know, how much people can 57 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: see you know, a certain piece of information, and they're 58 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: doing it in split seconds based on almost nothing. You know. 59 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: Sometimes we see Roth doing like a Google search where 60 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: he sees an NPR article for you know, a few 61 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: minutes and then makes a decision. That's crazy to me. 62 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: The arrogance of that is unbelievable. I think you know, 63 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: one thing that Saga actually brought up when we were 64 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: talking about this piece of the government involvement is that 65 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: it seems like a lot of these tools in this 66 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: interaction was developed during the War on Terror, and there 67 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: was a lot of support and almost no pushback about them, 68 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: you know, interfacing with Twitter and other social media outlets 69 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: to say, hey, pull down this like isis propagandist or 70 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: this al Qaeda dude or whatever, like let's get these 71 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: people off the platform. But it's a real lesson in 72 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: the way that once those tools and that power is 73 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,239 Speaker 1: made available to these agencies, they don't stop and limit 74 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: themselves to that one area. So as you know, administrations 75 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: have moved forward, they have continued, it seems to me 76 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: and I wonder if this is your impression as well, 77 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: to just continue to expand their intrusion and expand go 78 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: from war on Tarra to Okay, now we don't like 79 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 1: this type of actor, Now we don't like that type 80 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: of speech, and wade into more and more sort of 81 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: controversial and fraught areas as they've moved forward. Yeah, absolutely, 82 00:04:55,560 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: you can actually see the whole progression of of what 83 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: they began with in terms of what their mission was 84 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: on the moderation front, and then where it's ended up. 85 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: You know, later today you're going to be seeing some 86 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: material talking about how they deliver certain information to one 87 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: agency and but more serious information for instance, to like 88 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 1: the Pentagon, right And that's probably a holdover from the 89 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: War on Terror, when you know, the DoD was probably 90 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: asking companies like Twitter for information about certain actors abroad 91 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: and they were just giving it to them, right like that. 92 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: That's kind of how that system worked, whether it was 93 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: through FIZA, national security letters, whatever, they could get whatever 94 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: they wanted. But you see that they've massively expanded the mission, 95 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: and I think it was critical. Twenty sixteen was critical 96 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: here because after that they argued the foreign interference issue 97 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: gave them the license to start doing it on a 98 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: much grander scale than then after nine to eleven. And 99 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: you see that everywhere as well, even in something that 100 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: is seemingly you know, partisan, as they're on our Biden decision. 101 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: Lurking in the background of that is this fear that 102 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: somehow the Russians are involved, so we have to do 103 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: this or that that's part of a lot of these discussions, 104 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: and I think that's the justification for them getting down 105 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: to I mean, they're moderating tweets that have like almost 106 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: no engagement two followers, you know what I'm saying, Like 107 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: that that was so crazy, that's incredibly comprehensive. Yeah, And 108 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: when we look at that, I mean, especially when I 109 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: saw the FBI flagging specific tweets and they're like, FBI 110 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: flag this as if that means that they're supposed to 111 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: be called to action. That shows you the apparatus has 112 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: long been built. I mean, do we have any insight 113 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: into any further apparatuses that were built post January sixth? 114 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: Some most of what you guys have focused on or 115 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: released so far has been in the immediate aftermath, but 116 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: the Biden administration collaboration post period has not yet been explored. 117 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: Do you guys have any plans to release anything on 118 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: that front. Yeah, we're looking at that right now. I 119 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: mean we've we've our methods of searching have kind of 120 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: gone in different directions, and our access has been kind 121 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: of changed over time as we've refined this process. But 122 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: we're but they're back up and searching now, and uh yeah, 123 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: we're what I think some of us, you know, myself 124 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: in particular, maybe a couple of others. We're really trying 125 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: to do is map out exactly where all that flagging 126 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: comes out of the government and how it comes back 127 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: to companies like Twitter. And one of the things that's 128 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: fascinating is that there's just so many entry points for these, 129 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: you know this like FBI flag material. It might go 130 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: directly to Twitter. It might go via somebody they know 131 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: at the company, like you know, the former general counsel there. 132 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: It might go it might go in bulk, you know, 133 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: the FBI sends bulk request for possible violative content. It 134 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: might go through the Stanford Project, it might go through 135 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: the Atlantic Council. There's a whole sort of geography of 136 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: speech suppression that we're just learning a lot more about 137 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: every day. Matt, Can you talk a little bit more 138 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: about the process, because there have been a lot of 139 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: like questions about how this unfolded. You just made a 140 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: reference to like our access has changed, So how how 141 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: have you been working, what has that all been like? 142 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: And what did you make of Jack Dorsey At one point, 143 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: of course, former head of Twitter had suggested that, hey, 144 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: they should just make all of these files public and 145 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: then journalists can sort through them independent or otherwise make 146 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: of them what they will. What do you think of 147 00:08:53,080 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: that suggestion. Well, we're caught between basically two different different 148 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: kinds of criticisms. One one is saying you should release 149 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: all of it, and I have some sympathy for that, 150 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 1: right Like, I was a supporter of Wiki leaks, and 151 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,599 Speaker 1: you know, that approach is something that I that I understand. 152 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: On the other hand, we're taking tons of flak for 153 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: releasing people's personal information, even just names of people who 154 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: were known to work at the company, and so you 155 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: never know when you're going to release a gigantic data set, 156 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: whether you know there's something in there that's going to 157 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: trigger litigation or you know, like that that's one of 158 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: the reasons why you want to do it this way. 159 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: I would argue that I think a good thing would 160 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: be for journalists to at least take a first pass 161 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: at identifying some of the key issues and then you know, 162 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not I'm not opposed to that concept 163 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: in general. I think it's an interesting criticism, but I 164 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: do think you have to take into consideration the other 165 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 1: thing as well. Yeah, I think that's totally fair. I mean, look, 166 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: it's your scoop. You guys could obviously the first pass. 167 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: That Really my final question is how much more do 168 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: you guys anticipate on going through and then even more 169 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: so on the process, Like is it a searchable archive? 170 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: From what I've seen, it's a lot of screenshots, so 171 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 1: it must take a tremendous amount of research and just 172 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: like sifting through to even find the biggest stories. Many 173 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: people are curious. That's the only reason I'm asking. Yeah, 174 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: it's kind of hard to describe. I mean, I think 175 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: I'd be talking out of school if I got into 176 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: it too much. But people had this impression that we 177 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: were sitting in front of a terminal and just had 178 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: global access to every single document in Twitter's history. It 179 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: wasn't like that. It's gone through multiple iterations. The first 180 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: way that we did this involved a process that we 181 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: discovered was flawed. I mean, as you know, there was 182 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: somebody fired as a result of that because the former 183 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: deputy general counsel of the company reviewing the material without 184 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: our knowledge. Then there was another period where we were 185 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: looking basically at a period of time because we wanted 186 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: to investigate one story, which was how was Donald Trump banned? 187 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: I figured we would see a lot of evidence of 188 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: kind of government discussion there. That was one of the 189 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: reasons I was interested in that. But so we had 190 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: we only had a chunk of time and certain slack 191 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: channels that we were looking at there. Then we had 192 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: some technical problems, and now we're back up again, and 193 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: I'm actually not in the room. I'm on the other 194 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: side of the country at the moment. One other question 195 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: for you, Matt is, you know, every almost every source 196 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: in journalism has some sort of an agenda for why 197 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: they're giving you the information. So the fact that Elon 198 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: has an agenda here is not in any way disqualifying. 199 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: But given that you're sort of dependent on him and 200 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: his process for what documents are ultimately able to review, 201 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: how have you been able to ease your own concerns 202 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 1: that what you're looking at isn't somehow cherry picked or 203 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: skewed or selective versus a more complete picture. Well, I mean, 204 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: the minute I get the indication that I'm being played 205 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: or something like that, I'll, of course, you know, jump 206 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: out of the airplane. I mean, but I haven't seen 207 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: that at all. I've had no indication of that. I look, 208 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: people keep bringing this question up. You know, you're doing 209 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: pr for the richest man in the world. What about 210 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: his motives? Blah blah blah, and you know, like it 211 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. Like journalists, we don't care where the information 212 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: comes from. If it's true, we want to look at it. 213 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: I know what my motives are. My motives are I'm 214 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: looking at like I'm getting, you know, a unique look 215 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: into the underbelly of how censorship works in this country 216 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: and how the FBI, the DHS, you know, the Pentagon, 217 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: like all of these institutions and how they operate in secret. 218 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: That's an incredible opportunity. And I know what I'm looking for. 219 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: So it doesn't know. I guess there might be motives 220 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: that he might have, but that doesn't matter for the 221 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: integrity of the project. All we have to do is 222 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: make sure that the stuff that we're looking at is 223 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: true and accurate, and that we're drawing the correct conclusions 224 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: from them. Absolutely. My final question to you, Matt is 225 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: about the media coverage, Like how what have you made 226 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: of the response to this. It used to be something 227 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: like this would have been covered all six networks from 228 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: what I have seen so far, there's only been one 229 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: segment on any of the major television networks on this 230 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: entire thing. To the extent that they have covered in 231 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: the mainstream press, they've smeared you as a quote conservative journalist, 232 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: which is of course ridiculous if you know anything about 233 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: your career, has it been astonishing or I mean, look, 234 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: we're all kind of in this school together. It didn't 235 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: really surprise me, even though I'm repulsed by it, but 236 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: I guess it's just like a long standing repulsion. What 237 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: did you think? I mean, it's just funny, right, It's 238 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: hard to take it any other way. Look, I think 239 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: the clearest subtext of this entire project is kind of 240 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: a burn on traditional media. I mean, the whole idea 241 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: of putting the material out on Twitter to begin with. 242 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: It's kind of a double burn, right, because you're you're 243 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: flaying Twitter on Twitter, and then you're also doing it 244 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: in the in what used to be the private playground 245 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: essentially of the commercial media. And of course this arouses 246 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: lots of negative emotions, and you know, they're hitting back 247 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: and also pretending not to cover a story that everybody 248 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: in the in the country, and also in some parts 249 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: of the world they're talking about that just makes them 250 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: look ridiculous. I mean, I get I get that they 251 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: have opinions about it, but the whole thing is silly, 252 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, agreed. I mean, I don't know how 253 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: you can deny that the revelation of weekly meetings between 254 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: the FBI and a major social media platform that they 255 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: all acknowledge. I mean, there have been plenty of coverage 256 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: of you on takeover Twitter and what that means, so 257 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: they're sort of tacitly acknowledging this platform is really important, 258 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: but you know, only covering the pieces of it that 259 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: you know that they that they want to that they 260 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: pick and choose. So Matt, thank you so much. I 261 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: know you're tired, I know you've been up late and 262 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: all of those things. So we always really appreciate your 263 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: time here. Thanks for your work man. Thank thanks for 264 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: having me take a pot anytime. Yeah. Our pollsure big 265 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: science breakthrough that Sager and I are both I think 266 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: a little bit nerding out on and excited about. There 267 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: has been long, decades long efforts to try to generate 268 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: fusion energy, which right now we have nuclear fission, which 269 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: is you break things apart. Fusion would be you bring 270 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: atoms together that is sufficient enough to cause a net 271 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: energy gain. Decades long efforts to achieve this, and I'll 272 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: tell you why it matters a lot in a moment. 273 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: Let's go and put this Financial Times they broke the 274 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: news major breakthrough by US scientists boost clean power hopes. 275 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: Let me go ahead and read you the beginning of this. 276 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: US government scientists have made a breakthrough in the pursuit 277 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: of limitless zero carbon power by achieving a net energy 278 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: gain in a fusion reaction for the first time, according 279 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: to three people with knowledge of preliminary results. Physicists have 280 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: since the fifties sought to harness the fusion reaction that 281 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: powers the Sun and other stars of course as well, 282 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: but no group had been able to produce more energy 283 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: from the reaction than it consumes. That's the milestone that's 284 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: known as net energy gain or target gain, which would 285 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: help prove the process could provide a reliable, abundant alternative 286 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: to fossil fuels and conventional nuclear energy. Again, to reiterate, 287 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 1: there are private companies and a lot of actually investor 288 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: money that has gone to trying to achieve this end. 289 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: They have not accomplished this first US taxpayer dollars funded 290 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: public research that led to this massive technological breakthrough that 291 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: could in the future lead to a clean source of 292 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: limitless energy, I mean, which would be an entire, entire revolution. 293 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 1: Just a couple more things here. Fusion reactions emit no carbon, 294 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: they produce no long lived radioactive waste, which of course 295 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: the problem with nuclear energy, and a small cup of 296 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 1: the hydrogen fuel could theoretically power a house for hundreds 297 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: of years. One of the stats that I saw was 298 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: that a cup of seawater could provide the same amount 299 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: of energy as an entire barrel of oil. So that 300 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: is what we're talking about here. Ultimately, it's described as 301 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: the holy Grail of clean energy, and if they can 302 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: make this commercially viable, which we continue to be a 303 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: long way from, this could be a whole energy revolution 304 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: on the scale of the Industrial revolution. Yeah, I mean, look, 305 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: I hope. So this is one of those where I 306 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: also just want to put in a thread here for 307 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: public research, because this was something built called the National 308 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: Ignition Facility, and it was designed to actually to test 309 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons by simulating explosions to advance fusion energy research 310 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: or for advancing nuclear testing, but then was repurposed for 311 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: the three and a half billion dollar facility for fusion 312 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: energy research, where they were able to build. I think 313 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: it's the world's largest laser, which is kind of cool, yeah, 314 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: which they use to bombard the plasma. I don't understand 315 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: the science as much, and I've been looking much more 316 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: on the business end, and we should be careful, right, 317 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: which is Look, even the initial data, it's relatively unclear. Yes, 318 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: they did get that net energy gain, but it's going 319 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: to be very closed. It does, unfortunately, take a hell 320 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: of a lot of power to power of the world's 321 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: most powerful laser. Said as you said, Look, are we, 322 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: you know, a decade away from this, Probably not, But 323 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: are we one hundred billion dollars away from getting the 324 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 1: first facility off the ground with some real testing. Yeah, 325 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: I think we are. I think we are at that point. 326 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: And that's a very hopeful story. I mean, if you 327 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: can see, the Pentagon budget is like eight hundred billion dollars, 328 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: so this thing only costs three and a half billion 329 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: to build this facility. Let's say we throw one hundred 330 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: billion at this or something with new federal research, we 331 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: could be living in a whole new world, maybe what 332 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,959 Speaker 1: forty to fifty years from now. Economies of scale take 333 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: a long time to develop, but initial government research and 334 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: I hope what we can see is I don't want 335 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: this thing to get culture ward the way that nuclear 336 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: war nuclear energy was, even though I still believe you know, 337 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: cost effective wise and all that. Oh, where we are today, 338 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: we have to continue to lean into nuclear right like 339 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: nuclear in the interim fusion in the future, that'd be 340 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: I like that, sleg Yeah, sure that we could go 341 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: for the things that we should watch out and look 342 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: for are We have got to encourage more public research 343 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: dollars towards this because it is still you know, the 344 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: breakthrough is there in terms of the experiment, but now 345 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: we have to replicate the experiment multiple times, possibly in 346 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: different facilities, build even more throw possibly like contests and 347 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: things at this to get different physics departments and all 348 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: that involved. So that's the frontier I think that we're 349 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: moving into right now. Yeah. I you know, my dad 350 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: is a physicist, long retired, but physicists nonetheless. I was 351 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: talking to him about this last night. He was super 352 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: excited and let me try to explain the science as 353 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: best as my feeble brain possibly can. So, as I 354 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: said before, the reaction that they're trying to achieve here, 355 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: and that they did achieve here is what ultimately powers 356 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: the Sun and other stars. And the reason they are 357 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: able to pull it off and we have not been 358 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: able to up to this point is because they have 359 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: the benefit of having a large amount of mass, and 360 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: it's that pressure that basically creates the heat that makes 361 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 1: it possible for this reaction to form this plasma and 362 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: have this net energy gain that just sort of continues. 363 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,239 Speaker 1: So there's two methods that scientists have been using to 364 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: try to achieve this net energy gain. One of them is, 365 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: like Soccer said, using giant lasers to basically, like you know, 366 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: super heat things up, which means move the particles faster. 367 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 1: That's the one that's been successful here. The other method 368 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: that's being tried in other places is basically using super 369 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: powerful electromagnets. That's the other method to try to achieve 370 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: this gain. And so that's really the central challenge that 371 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: they've been trying to figure out. Now, the hopeful indication 372 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 1: here is that they're actually still crunching the data. There 373 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: is going to be an announcement from the Government of 374 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: the Department of Energy, led by Jennifer Granholm sometime today, 375 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: so we'll see the specifics of what they said. But 376 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: they said, actually one of the challenges with getting the 377 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: measurements is that the net energy gain was more than 378 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: they expected and actually broke of the instruments. So that 379 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: seems like a hopeful indication that they even went above 380 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: and beyond. It appears there may have been a second 381 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: experiment that also was able to replicate this net energy gain. However, 382 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: put this next piece up on the screen. This is 383 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: from Power mag They see US officials set to announce 384 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: this fusion energy breakthrough. As I mentioned, Jennifer Graham Holme, 385 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: who is Energy Secretary, has said she's going to make 386 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: an announcement of a major scientific breakthrough in all expectations 387 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: or this is going to be it. But they go 388 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: on to talk about the challenge of commercializing fusion. They 389 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: said it includes developing machinery that could affordably turn the 390 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: fusion reaction into power that could be deployed to the grid. 391 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: Scientists have said that building equipment large enough to create 392 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: fusion power at scale requires materials that are difficult to produce. 393 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: In addition, the fusion reaction creates neutrons that significantly stress 394 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: equipment and could potentially destroy that equipment. So there are 395 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: a lot of challenges still ahead. One scientist I saw 396 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: quoted said, listen, is this going to be a significant 397 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: part of climate crisis abatement in the next twenty to 398 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: thirty years. No, it is not, So keep in mind 399 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: this is more of a long term hope for the future. 400 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: Clean energy trans completely transformational, hopefully in our lifetimes, and 401 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: this is a major step forward. There was one other 402 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: piece that I just wanted to bring you on the 403 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: front of clean energy, which is we've talked here before 404 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: about how the US has really gotten majorly behind the 405 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: game in terms of securing the mineral elements needed for 406 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: evs and electric vehicle batteries. In particular, China has been 407 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: very aggressive in securing these mining rights. The Obama administration 408 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: dropped the ball, the Trump administration dropped the ball. It 409 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: looks like the Biden administration is trying to do a 410 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: little bit of a better job. Let's go and put 411 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: this up on the screen. This from Axios. They say 412 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: that the headline here is exclusive behind Biden's overseas mining funding, 413 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: they are trying to fund roughly a dozen different mineral 414 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: projects overseas and a bid for more resources you in 415 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: lower carbon technologies. Supporting more mining overseas could ease a 416 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: raw material squeeze hurting electric vehicles in particular. They also 417 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: talk about the politics could have a side effect, giving 418 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: Biden's foes fodder against him for rejecting minds at home. 419 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,719 Speaker 1: That to me is kind of a side show from 420 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: the main key piece here, which is there at least 421 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: making some moves to secure the type of minerals that 422 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: we would need to have a larger scale up of 423 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: electric vehicle technology. I don't know if this is sufficient. 424 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: I sort of doubt that it is, but you can 425 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: see the you know, again, they like dabble in some 426 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: good things, dabble in a little bit of industrial policy 427 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: that we just haven't had in this country in a 428 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: very long time. Yeah, mineral rights are very important, and 429 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: electric batteries and all that lithium ion deposits across South America, Mexico. 430 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: There's some major Titanic battles happening in Chile with respect 431 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: to mining rights and government and all that. So this's 432 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 1: some interesting stuff that's down the table. If that treaty 433 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: does end up passing, which we'll maybe we'll do a 434 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: little bit of a segment on it if it comes 435 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: to news it becomes more newsworthy. But there's a lot 436 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: of really interesting things that are happening at the governmental 437 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: level to try and secure the ground through which companies 438 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: can then begin establishing a domestic or more of a 439 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: less China reliant electric battery supply chain, because right now, 440 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: at least for the next decade, we are locked in 441 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: almost one hundred percent with China, which is not a 442 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: good place to be. You want to bet the future 443 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: on electric vehicles. Great planning from our political way to go, guys, 444 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: very excited about this. We've got a great guest to 445 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,959 Speaker 1: join us on the show today, coffee Zilla. So if 446 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: you might know him, he's a journalist. He's a fantastic 447 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: job over on his YouTube channel, which we'll have a 448 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: link in the description exposing crypto scams, but really being 449 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,959 Speaker 1: at the forefront of the SBF scandal from day one, 450 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: and what a fortuitous day for you to join us, Topizilla. 451 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, man, We appreciate it. Thanks for 452 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: having me. Yeah, we've got him getting arrested it's an 453 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: incredible day for sure. Okay, So I think one of 454 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: the things we wanted to start with is that you 455 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 1: could recap for the audience is when you did a video, 456 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: I accidentally got SBF to admit to fraud. So why 457 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: don't you dig into some of the details there and 458 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: maybe even take it back to what set your BS 459 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: radar off with SBF from the very beginning when you 460 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: started covering him many months ago. Yeah, so months ago 461 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: he was on a podcast with Matt Levine where he 462 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: was saying that basically everything's a Ponzi scheme. All of 463 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 1: Defi's a Ponzi scheme. It was kind of an incredible admission, 464 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: and at the time I said, look, here's this crypto 465 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 1: ceo that everyone loves who's basically glorifying Ponzi schemes as 466 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 1: if it's a legitimate business. And Matt Levine famously said, 467 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: you know, sounds like you're in the Ponzi business and 468 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: business is good. Now. Later, when all of this collapsed, 469 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: I tried to get an interview with him. He didn't 470 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: want to talk to me, although he talked to a 471 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: lot of journalists, So instead I snuck up on a 472 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: Twitter space and managed to basically kind of trick him 473 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: into talking to me. At first, he ran away the 474 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: first couple calls, but finally I know him down and 475 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: I got him to admit that there was fungibility between accounts. 476 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: This is a really important point. Basically, Sam Bankman Freed 477 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: was never supposed to have control over customer funds. It 478 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: was supposed to be separated per their term of service. 479 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: And what he admitted to me was that was never 480 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,159 Speaker 1: the case. There was what they called generalized withdrawals the 481 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: day of the bankruptcy, the days leading up to the bankruptcy, 482 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 1: which meant fundamentally, your funds were never safe. They were 483 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: always being used by Sam and Alameda to make risky 484 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: trading decisions, absolutely scandalous. And today you saw the results 485 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: of that. Obviously you have the DOJ announcing that they're 486 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: about to they're about to really release their charges on him. 487 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: You're very strategic about the way that you went about 488 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: questioning him because you had seen him very successfully dodge 489 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: other interviewers who were relatively skilled over at the New 490 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 1: York Times and with George Stephanopolis. Can you talk about 491 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: some of the tactics that he would use to deflect 492 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: scrutiny in these other interviews that he was doing absolutely. 493 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: So what he was really good at was he was 494 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 1: able to deflect by going to a bunch of complicated 495 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: financial instruments that he knew very well, and by doing 496 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: that he could get the interviewer sort of off their game. 497 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: So he would invoke Alameda Research, which was his trading 498 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: firm which he started, he owned, but ultimately had nothing 499 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: to do with. He would say he knew nothing about right, 500 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: he would say, I knew nothing about Alameda. I was 501 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: not the CEO, So anything that happened there is not 502 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: my fault. So an interview with an interviewer would say, 503 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: you know what happened at FTX, it looks like there's 504 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: a bunch of money stolen, and he said, well that 505 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: was with what was going on with Alameda. We had 506 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: this banking issue, we had an accounting error, and each 507 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: interviewer just kind of kept getting trapped in this mire 508 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: of excuses. So what I decided to do was really 509 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: focus on FX itself, ignore Alameda completely, and say, look, 510 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: even if you just take what happened on FTX, that's 511 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: fraud because customers should have been backed one to one 512 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: let's say your grandma put a bitcoin on FTX, that 513 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: money should still be there even if they didn't have 514 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: money for everyone else who is on their riskier side 515 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: of the trading, so they didn't have the money. He 516 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: eventually admitted they didn't have the money, and that by 517 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: itself is definitively fraud. You cannot tell people in your 518 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: term to service that you're going to keep their money 519 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: safe and then not do it. So by focusing in 520 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: on that, I was able to get around a lot 521 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: of his kind of excuses of going into Alameda, going 522 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: into these complicated instruments. Basically, the SEC agrees with you 523 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: because they nailed him for exactly what you said and 524 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: the complaint that we read on our show this morning. 525 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: I want to go a little level deeper. You've been 526 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: exposing kind of crypto frauds, scammers really just online in 527 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: the broader universe for quite a long time. It's something 528 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: that I think that the mainstream media really misses until 529 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: it just explodes into a multi billion dollar catastrophe. Why 530 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: do you think that is? Why is it that these 531 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: obvious you know, multi billionaires in this case, multimillionaires and 532 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: many other cases which you've exposed now for a long time. 533 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: Why do they seem to fly under the radar when 534 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: they're obviously so influential with younger people and on the 535 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: internet large I think a lot of mainstream journalists just 536 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: haven't caught up with the crypto world, and I think 537 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: they're struggling to catch up even now. In the case 538 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: of Sam Bankman Freed, it was a bit different because 539 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: he was actually funding a lot of these institutions. You 540 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: had him actually giving grants to journalists, You had him 541 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: working sort of hand in hand with journalists. So it's 542 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: no surprise they didn't see it. Right. A lot of 543 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: these people are still struggling to see the fraud. You 544 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: have some puff pieces going out there. Don't get me wrong, 545 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: there's some great mainstream pieces about Sam Bankman Freed, but 546 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: a lot of them missed this, And the question is, Okay, 547 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: it's some combination of maybe they don't understand crypto, but 548 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: also how much of it is well, he was the 549 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,719 Speaker 1: poster child, He was the guy from Jane Street who 550 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: is so smart, and he was helping all the journalists. 551 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: He was a huge democratic funder. How much did that 552 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: play a role in it? It's hard to know. I 553 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: mean we see this across industries, not just in terms 554 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: of finance or tech, but certainly in terms of politics. 555 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: A lot of times the journalists get cozy with the 556 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: subjects they're supposed to be holding to account, and their 557 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: career depends more on access to that person than it 558 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: does on, you know, potentially exposing them, and so it 559 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: creates a bad incentive structure where it's like they want 560 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: to be in the club rather than they really want 561 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: to be covering and holding the club ultimately to account. 562 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: I am curious though, I mean your YouTube channel, your 563 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: description of it is I uncover scams, fraudsters and fake 564 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: gurus that are preying on desperate people with deceptive advertising, 565 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: which is an incredible space that you've carved out for yourself. Like, 566 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: what are some of the tactics that you use to 567 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,239 Speaker 1: Like when does your BS radar go off? What are 568 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: some of the commonalities between these various crooks that you 569 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: you are ultimately exposing and revealing, And what sort of 570 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: characteristics is Sam Bankman Freed share with some of those 571 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: other individuals you've covered. Sure, yeah, I'd love to talk 572 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: about that. A lot of the tactics and methods people 573 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: used to gain this like a status with people or 574 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: grift on people. It's a lot on quick status. But 575 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of these guys might be goes 576 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: off whenever somebody comes out of nowhere, seemingly no pedigree 577 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,479 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden is taking the world by storm. 578 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: They seem to have wealth from nowhere. They advertising some 579 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: get rich quick scheme and really FTX was kind of 580 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: doing that. I mean they were offering people like high 581 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: interest rate loans. They said they were low risk. You 582 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: have Sam Bankman Freed himself, who although he came from 583 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: a great school, he came from MIT, he had some pedigree. 584 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: He really didn't do much before FTX, and all of 585 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: a sudden, he's the smartest guy on the block. He's 586 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: telling people they have no risk. He's telling people he's 587 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: got he's making money with any kind of risk associated. 588 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: It just didn't make sense. And then you just have 589 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: his talk about Ponzi schemes favorably. That was a huge 590 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: red flag. So it's these types of things that kind 591 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: of set it off with his case. I think it's 592 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: just a lot of people missed it because they were 593 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: blindsided by all the other rubber stamping that goes on. 594 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: I mean, this is something a bit different with sam 595 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: Is so many people had checked him off. You had 596 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: Sequoia Capital, you have Blackrock, You have a lot of 597 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: people doing so called who are supposed to be doing 598 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: due diligence who really didn't do it. But a lot 599 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: of those same tactics that I see over and over 600 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: with like deceptive marketing, predatory marketing. You saw that with SBF, 601 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: and he actually admitted in an interview that that's actually 602 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: why he talked a lot about you know, or at 603 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: least it was part of the reason he talked so 604 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: much about charity, about all this effective altruism was it 605 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: was part of brand building. And I think that's such 606 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: an important point. Is what are our blind spots as 607 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: an institutions as this, you know, the Fourth of State, 608 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: as journalists to people like this. Who else should everybody 609 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 1: be paying attention to? Because obviously you called SBF from 610 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: the beginning, Are there any others that people should watch 611 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: out for? I mean, certainly it's hard to say like 612 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: one person without you know, making a whole story about it, 613 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: But for sure, anybody who pops up out of nowhere 614 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: who claims to have the whole crypto industry on a 615 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: string has it all figured out? And we've seen this 616 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: time and time again. It's usually there's undisclosed risk. So 617 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: that was a big thing this year and in crypto 618 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: in general. People have been saying, oh, it's different. You 619 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: can get eight percent a year no risk with crypto, 620 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: or it's eight percent of years easy to get with crypto. 621 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: It's different from the fiat markets. Listen, anytime anyone's promising 622 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: you huge amounts of money for no risk, run you know. 623 00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: If you don't understand it, if you don't understand why 624 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: there's risk associated, there's something hidden there. And that's exactly 625 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: what you've seen in the crypto industry is over and 626 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: over and over again. These people who are promising high 627 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 1: rates of return, they blow up because they had something 628 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: that they were trying to hide. Eventually comes out. Well, 629 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: some things are too good to be true. Would have 630 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: been useful advice for zography months last fifty five hundred 631 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: on block by Yeah, I'm rather, I'm sorry to hear it. 632 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 1: It's all right, it's all right. I'm here to live 633 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:27,800 Speaker 1: another day. I'm here to talk to us. Should have 634 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: been watching your channel more often. That's one of the 635 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: reasons we wanted to have you on. Such an amazing 636 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: job that you've been doing over there. I encourage everybody 637 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,839 Speaker 1: to go and to subscribe. You do a really good 638 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: job both breaking it down for anybody who's just coming 639 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: into it, really entertaining, great interview style, breaking news journalism, 640 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: and I consider you in the highest regard in the story. 641 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: So congratulations. Yeah, thank you so much. We're super grateful 642 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: for your time. Thanks, guys, appreciate you having me on. 643 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely linked down in the description to go and subscribe 644 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: to his channel. Hey everyone, this is Ken Clippenstein with 645 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: the intercept breaking point. I'm going to be talking to 646 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: you today about the War Powers Resolution that was withdrawn 647 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,399 Speaker 1: in the Senate on Tuesday. It's important to all Americans 648 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: broadly speaking for two reasons. One is that the War 649 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: Powers Resolution aim to restore power in Congress. Congress's ability 650 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: to determine when we go to war, place important checks 651 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: and balances on the Presidency to make it so they 652 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: can't just do a troop build up and force us 653 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: into a situation where we're at war without authorization from Congress. 654 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: So there's important constitutional dimensions to this that anyone who's 655 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: concerned with the I think fact that the presidency has 656 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,959 Speaker 1: become an extraordinarily powerful tool over since at least World 657 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: War Two, and you know, there's increasingly fewer and fewer 658 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: checks on its ability to exercise its wartime powers. And 659 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: then for a second reason, just a humanitarian crisis in Yemen, 660 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: which is what fomented the whole debate around this War 661 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: Powers resolution, being that you know, we're supporting the Saudi 662 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: led coalition to fight a Warnim and to try to 663 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: remove the hoothy rebels from the government there, and the 664 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: effect of this has been devastating. This is like the 665 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: biggest humanitarian crisis on Earth. You know, millions of people 666 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: facing extreme food insecurity, huge numbers of people, the UN 667 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 1: just said earlier this week before the War Powers resolution 668 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: was withdrawn, huge numbers of children going hungry. You can't 669 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: overstate the just human crisis that's happening on the ground, 670 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: and of which you know, we are apart by providing 671 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: support to the Saudi coalition, which we've been doing for 672 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 1: about seven years now, and so it's kind of like 673 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: sadera Abia as Vietnam. The question is, okay, this has 674 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: been going on for a very long time. You know, 675 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:53,760 Speaker 1: I was always against it. I think there were always 676 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: great arguments not to be involved. But so long as 677 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: we are at what does the endgame look like? And 678 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: nobody's really asking that question, and this War Powers Resolution 679 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: sought to answer that, which is finally the president would 680 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: have to get authorization from Congress. But what ended up 681 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: happening was Senator Bernie Sanders, who, as we reported the 682 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,919 Speaker 1: intercept had the votes, said that he had the votes 683 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: for it, ended up withdrawing it on Thursday night. Now, 684 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: over the course for reporting, what we were able to 685 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: find was that that withdrawal came after the White House 686 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,359 Speaker 1: was privately circulating talking points telling the Democrats back off 687 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: of this, we do not want this. What it surprised you, 688 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: the presidents don't like having checks on their power. They 689 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: want to be able to exercise things without those. Well 690 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened here. And then the talking points 691 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: that we obtained from the White House that they were 692 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 1: circulating with Senate Democrats, who, by the way, Senator Chris Murphy, 693 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,839 Speaker 1: who is head of the subcommittee that has jurisdiction over 694 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: this conflict, he even said that he supported the War 695 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,800 Speaker 1: Powers Resolution, which you know, he himself, not necessarily you know, 696 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: a huge activist in his own activist type senator's own right, 697 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: so that you know, said a lot about where the 698 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: caucus was at, where you know, the Senate was at, 699 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: and there was even some Republican support for this issue. 700 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: The Yemen conflict is very interesting subject because you know, 701 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: a lot of people that I know in the military, 702 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:10,879 Speaker 1: a lot of people that I know in the national 703 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: security world who are themselves conservatives. I find, you know, 704 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: pretty unusual agreement across both sides that this is a 705 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 1: conflict that we don't have to be a part of. 706 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: And you know, how is this completely aside from the 707 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: human costs that I was describing before, how does this 708 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,439 Speaker 1: benefit Americans? And the answer to that is not clear, 709 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,240 Speaker 1: especially in the context of a you know, new regime 710 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: in RIOD under the Young Conference, Mohammed bin Salman, who 711 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: has been holding down to oil production to the chagrin 712 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: you know, not just of Democrats, but of anybody who 713 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: has to go to the gas pump and pay for things. 714 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: And you know, we have fossil fuel based economy, so 715 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 1: you know, completely aside from the gasoline, holding the production 716 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: down is an effect on the global economy, drives up inflation, 717 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,760 Speaker 1: all sorts of negative things that President Biden himself has threatened, 718 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,839 Speaker 1: quote consequences for the White House's threat in the past. 719 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: Where are those consequences. It looks like they don't exist, 720 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,240 Speaker 1: because War Powers resolution that would have blocked or at least, 721 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: you know, impeded US support for the Yemen conflict. But 722 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: to go back into the White House, that go back 723 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: to the talking points that the White House was circulating. 724 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: Going to read from them now it's his quote. The 725 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: Administration strongly opposed to the Yemen War Powers Resolution on 726 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 1: a number of grounds, but the bottom line is that 727 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,320 Speaker 1: this resolution is unnecessary and would greatly complicate the intense 728 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 1: and ongoing diplomacy to truly bring an end to the conflict. Now, 729 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: when I read that, I thought, okay, well, let's talk 730 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 1: to some of the diplomats and experts to see if 731 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: that's true that they're, you know, engaged in this wonderful 732 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: diplomacy that we don't want to imperil with the war 733 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: Powers resolution. So I interviewed for this story that you 734 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 1: can find in the intercept a former Undersecretary General of 735 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: the United Nations who himself was an envoy to Yemen 736 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: until twenty fifteen. His name is Jamal ben Omar, and 737 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,919 Speaker 1: he was extremely critical of the notion that the Biden 738 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: administration was engaged in any sort of meaningful diplomacy. He 739 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: told me, quote, there's been no diplomatic progress whatsoever. There's 740 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,399 Speaker 1: no political process, no negotiations or even a prospect of them. 741 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: And so he says, he concedes that there is a 742 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: lull in the fighting that's taking place. Now, that's kind 743 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,760 Speaker 1: of the argument that the Biden administration has circled around 744 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: to say, hey, don't you ruin a good thing that 745 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: we have here. But what he's saying is that that's misleading. 746 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: Just because the fighting is in a lull period now, 747 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that they aren't stocking up, arming, supplying 748 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 1: themselves and preparing for more fighting in the future, which 749 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,839 Speaker 1: I think is exactly right. Just because the fighting is happening, 750 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: and that's not a meaningful piece because, as he says, 751 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: there's been no serious negotiations to address the underlying problems 752 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: that are causing this crisis. And so he says, quote, 753 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 1: there's been a lull in the fighting, but since there 754 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 1: was no concerted effort to move the political process forward. 755 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: The lull is a temporary one and all sides are 756 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: preparing for the worst. He goes on to say the 757 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: situation is extremely fragile because Yemen is fragmented now you 758 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: have different areas of Yemen under the control of different warlords. 759 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 1: So he's absolutely right. When they go back to fighting, 760 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: this situation could be worse than it's been in the past, 761 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: as hard as that is to imagine, because of the 762 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: human toll that I was describing before. You know, I 763 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: was talking to a former State Department official. Once you 764 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,360 Speaker 1: said to me, no matter how bad things are, something 765 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: I've learned from I think he was an Africa specialist. 766 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 1: Something I've learned from my experience in being a diplomat 767 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 1: is never assumed that things can't get even worse. And 768 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: so I'm afraid that's the situation with regard to Yemen now. 769 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,480 Speaker 1: And you know Biden's own Yemen envoy, Tim Lender King, 770 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: he said, I'm quoting now. He said, quote the end 771 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: of the peace agreement, which they had, a peace agreement 772 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 1: that lapsed several months ago, would precipitate quote a return 773 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: to war. So it feels like the administration is talking 774 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 1: out of both sides of his mouth, because you have 775 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: people saying, you know, we've got this great diplomacy. You know, 776 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: maybe there needs to be checks and balances and the presidency, 777 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,240 Speaker 1: but why do you want to imperil this great agreement 778 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 1: that we have. But the agreement's already lapsed. You know, 779 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,760 Speaker 1: there's been no meaningful resolution to the problems that that 780 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:53,879 Speaker 1: caused the war in the first place. So I see 781 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,320 Speaker 1: no reason why that wouldn't take place again and again 782 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: earlier this week we have unise F, the UN Children's organization, 783 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: warning that two point two million many children are male nourished, 784 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,759 Speaker 1: with over eleven thousand haven't been killed or maimed in 785 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 1: the warsuit. You can't overstate how awful. I mean, all 786 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: war is awful, but this, sadly is in a category 787 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: of its own. And I wish that there was a 788 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: sense of urgency on the part of the Senate, who 789 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,840 Speaker 1: my understanding is, as I said before, they had some 790 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,439 Speaker 1: Republican senators on board for this, So this was really 791 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: something that I don't think had to become or indeed 792 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: was a partisan issue, And in fact, top Biden administration 793 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: officials during the Trump administration passed a war Powers resolution, 794 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 1: which Trump subsequently vetoed. But what was interesting about that 795 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: is if you look at some of the names, I'm 796 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: gonna read them off to you. Now, these aren't like 797 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: low to mid level people in the Biden administrator. These 798 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 1: are people at the very top of the administration, like 799 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: very prominent people wrote a public letter which you can 800 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: find this isn't secret, expressing the importance of passing this 801 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,800 Speaker 1: war powers resolution during the Trump administration. So those figures 802 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,920 Speaker 1: were Jake Sullivan, who was current the National Security advisor 803 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 1: to Biden, Samantha Power, Susan Rice, Wendy Sherman, Cole, and call. 804 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 1: These are heavy hitters in the administration who during the 805 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: Trump administration thought, you know, this is important that we 806 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: have checks on the presidency, that we draw down our 807 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:19,359 Speaker 1: support for this this terrible war. Suddenly, what happened. They're 808 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: in power now and they don't have any of those 809 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: concerns anymore. So, Unfortunately, I feel like in situations like this, 810 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: I actually interviewed a Congressional Democratic congressional staffer themselves said, 811 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,400 Speaker 1: no president wants to empower Congress and and you know, 812 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 1: place kurbs and limits on their own authority when they're empowered. 813 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:37,719 Speaker 1: Now they're happy to do that when they're out of 814 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,359 Speaker 1: power and raise all these sorts of concerns and and 815 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: you know, talk about how we need to do something 816 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:43,839 Speaker 1: about it. But as soon as they have, as soon 817 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 1: as they put on the ring something about the allure 818 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,239 Speaker 1: of that, of the unbridled extrase of power, it just 819 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,879 Speaker 1: gets to them and they forget about what they cared about. 820 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: So I think it's really in common on the public 821 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,759 Speaker 1: to sort of pressure them on passing something of this 822 00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,399 Speaker 1: and and fortunately, you know, there is bipartisan support for it. 823 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,719 Speaker 1: Perhaps because the Republicans are no longer in power, they're 824 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,799 Speaker 1: more open to it. But this should be a matter 825 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,360 Speaker 1: of principle. It should be something that you care about 826 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,840 Speaker 1: because it's the Constitution, and you know the intent of 827 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,920 Speaker 1: the Constitution was to limit the president's power with regard 828 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 1: to wartime. I think that strengthening that can only be 829 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: a good thing. But unfortunately we have an administration that 830 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: doesn't seem interested in that. And the open question now, 831 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,319 Speaker 1: as we report in the story, Bernie Sanders says that he, 832 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 1: withdrawing the resolution, is going to try to negotiate with 833 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: the White House to come to some form of language 834 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: for the legislation that they can agree to. I'm pretty 835 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 1: skeptical that the again that the White House is going 836 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: to want to voluntarily put any limits on its own power. 837 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 1: Senator Sander says that if they don't agree to something, 838 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,160 Speaker 1: then he's going to come back. But you know they're 839 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,320 Speaker 1: in a lame duck session. They're going to lose the House. 840 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 1: I think a big question at this point is how 841 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 1: much can they do after the lame duck session. I 842 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,560 Speaker 1: think probably a lot less. And if you look at 843 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,879 Speaker 1: Republican leadership in the House. While many rank and follow 844 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,799 Speaker 1: Republicans have a surprise and number have expressed support for this, 845 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,360 Speaker 1: I think just because of the constitutional dimension doesn't have 846 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: to be a partisan thing, the Republican the leadership, like 847 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: McCarthy have expressed opposition to it, and indeed still want 848 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:18,680 Speaker 1: to support the Saudi led coalition in Yemen. So I 849 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: think now is the time that if this is going 850 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: to happen, it's going to happen. But unfortunately, people don't 851 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 1: don't hold the same ideals that they do when they're 852 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,319 Speaker 1: when they're not in power, when when suddenly they are. 853 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 1: So thanks for joining me with this, guys, I think 854 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 1: it's a really important issue. I encourage you to try to, 855 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 1: you know, engage with this to the extent that you can, 856 00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 1: because it's such an important, just you know, separations of 857 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,560 Speaker 1: power question that unfortunately is never in the interests of 858 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:46,800 Speaker 1: the person that happens to sit in the Oval office. 859 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: Once again, that's kin Clip and Side. Thanks for joining me. 860 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:49,839 Speaker 1: You guys, take care.