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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm pim Fox.

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Speaker 1: Along with my co host Lisa Bramowitz. Each day we

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Speaker 1: bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews for

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Speaker 1: you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store

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Speaker 1: or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg p m L

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Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot com. How

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Speaker 1: do you value a business? How do you value a

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Speaker 1: business for the basis of a non bank lender. Well,

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Speaker 1: here to help us understand this world is Ronald Kahn.

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Speaker 1: He is the managing director of Lincoln International and he's

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Speaker 1: based in Chicago, but he joins us here in our

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Speaker 1: eleven three oh studios. Ron always a pleasure, Thanks for

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Speaker 1: being here. You know. Maybe let's just begin with something

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Speaker 1: called the Lincoln Middle Market Index. Tell us what it is,

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Speaker 1: and then we'll get into the issue of valuation and

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Speaker 1: privately held companies. Great, okay, So you know that Lincoln

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Speaker 1: International is a middle market investment banking firm. In addition

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Speaker 1: to our M and A and ad advisory capabilities, we

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Speaker 1: have valuation capabilities as well. And the valuations are basically

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Speaker 1: for non bank lenders. If you remember two thousand and

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Speaker 1: eight two thousand nine, the world turned upside down. Banks

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Speaker 1: got out of middle market lending. Nin banks got involved

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Speaker 1: UM public BDCs, private d BDCs, private debt funds, and

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Speaker 1: most of them need valuations. UM. They need it because

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Speaker 1: if they're public, they wanted UM conform with SEC regulations.

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Speaker 1: If they're not public, UM, many of the more leverage

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Speaker 1: and their lenders to the to these lenders also one valuations.

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Speaker 1: Results of that, we have this a massive amount of

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Speaker 1: data on privately held companies. Basically we've been doing this.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and eight, we have seventy nine bank lenders.

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Speaker 1: We do about twelve portfolio companies every quarter. And as

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Speaker 1: a result, we as I said, we have all this

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Speaker 1: financial information. We've been doing reports on the number of

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Speaker 1: companies that show earnings growth year over year, revenue growth

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Speaker 1: year over year. That we've done and other people have

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Speaker 1: done that. But we thought, at the beginning of year,

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Speaker 1: what happens if you could create an index, an index

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Speaker 1: that depicts the value of middle market company's enterprise value,

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Speaker 1: so that's earnings plus they're multiple. I had no idea

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Speaker 1: how to do it in next I mean, that was

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Speaker 1: like way beyond me. But we wound up collaborating with

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Speaker 1: Steve Kaplan, who is a professor at the University of

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Speaker 1: Chicago Booth Steve. Steve is probably the pre eminent expert

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Speaker 1: on private equity. He brought in one of his colleagues,

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Speaker 1: Mike Mennis, who's a professor of accounting, and they figured

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Speaker 1: out the man. They looked at all the statard and

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Speaker 1: said we we can pull this together. So about ten

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Speaker 1: ten days ago we came out with this Lincoln middle

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Speaker 1: Market Index, which again um depicts the the enterprise value

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Speaker 1: of an average middle market company mental market companies. We

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Speaker 1: we defined for the index as companies that have an

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Speaker 1: EBA d A of a hundred million dollars or less.

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Speaker 1: But the average in this is twenty seven eight million

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Speaker 1: dollars um in EVA d A and there's about three

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty companies in the index. So ron before

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Speaker 1: we get to uh, just the valuations themselves, I would

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Speaker 1: love for you to give us a sense of how

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Speaker 1: much this market of middle market corporate debt and company equity,

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Speaker 1: how much it's grown, because, as you mentioned, business development

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Speaker 1: companies are a big buyer of these companies, but it's

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Speaker 1: not just them. Private equity firms are getting into private debt,

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Speaker 1: so were hedge funds, were insurance company. This has been

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Speaker 1: Holy grail increasingly. So how much has this market increased.

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Speaker 1: It has increased exponentially and and and some of it

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Speaker 1: has replaced the banks, the mental market banks, so so

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Speaker 1: many of them used to be lenders to private equity firms,

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Speaker 1: to these mental market companies, they pretty much have have

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Speaker 1: exited the market. Interestingly, happen to be very big lenders

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Speaker 1: to these new private dead funds, these um or or

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Speaker 1: or BDC. So they might almost have as much money

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Speaker 1: in the middle market today as they did before, but

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Speaker 1: in a different um in a different aspect. But but

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Speaker 1: the the number of these we we probably have when

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Speaker 1: on the dead advisory side, we probably could go to oh,

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Speaker 1: I would say a hundred and fifty hundred and seventy

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Speaker 1: non bank lenders today. That that's that's how big the

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Speaker 1: universe is. What is the bias of the non bank

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Speaker 1: lenders when it comes to valuation? Um, well, that I

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Speaker 1: think that I know I'm putting you on the hot

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Speaker 1: seat a little bit, but but I think it's you.

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Speaker 1: It's useful because they were also they have to respond

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Speaker 1: to the market dynamic, right, I mean they can't just

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Speaker 1: ignore what their investors are looking for. Um, that's right.

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Speaker 1: I mean many many of these are SEC reporting entities,

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Speaker 1: so they do want to play it down the middle.

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Speaker 1: UM and I and I think, as I said, we

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Speaker 1: do to hundred portfolio companies every quarter. I think I

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Speaker 1: think our clients are very very um honest in what

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Speaker 1: they're reporting. I think they do a really good job

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Speaker 1: because you know, the consequences are just they're staggering. So

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Speaker 1: I think I think everybody wants to play it by

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Speaker 1: the book. So you said that there are a hundred

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Speaker 1: seventy five uh non bank lenders that you could go to,

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Speaker 1: what's it up from say five years ago? Oh, probably

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Speaker 1: in two thousand a, two thousand nine. I bet they

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Speaker 1: weren't more than thirty. I mean right right right now

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Speaker 1: there there there there are fifty five sixty public b dcs,

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Speaker 1: up from probably in two thousand eight business development corporations

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Speaker 1: right through the new and the newest private b dcs.

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Speaker 1: They are just um phenomenal. So I I think you

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Speaker 1: probably have close to UM nine billion. I think is

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Speaker 1: the last time I saw between public and private b dcs.

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Speaker 1: Asset under management and I can't imagine that that it

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Speaker 1: was much more than twenty billion and two thousand eight,

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Speaker 1: So it it it has been exponential. Are you concerned

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Speaker 1: about the lending standards considering how much money is chasing companies? I? I, UM,

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Speaker 1: that's a really good question. I mean lending it is

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Speaker 1: certainly a borrow is market today. UM. The one thing

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Speaker 1: that I think is is a governing factor is we

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Speaker 1: see that debt as a percent of total enterprise value

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Speaker 1: is still in the sixty six range, which means there's

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Speaker 1: about thirty equity below them um in terms of enterprise value. Now,

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Speaker 1: the flip side of that is, enterprise values themselves are

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Speaker 1: are rather frosth because multiples have gone up considerably UM

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Speaker 1: debt today, and it is not uncommon for companies to

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Speaker 1: get six times leverage UM. Middle market companies againting five

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Speaker 1: to six times leverage, and and and and and I

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Speaker 1: will say, what what does concern me a little bit?

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Speaker 1: Proform adjustment. Most of these companies are lending a selling

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Speaker 1: off of proformer adjustments. Ron Com thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us, Managing director of Lincoln International based in Chicago,

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Speaker 1: but joining us here in our eleven three oh studios.

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Speaker 1: This is Boomberg. Well, turmoil in Germany will not end

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Speaker 1: that soon. The latest news just crossing the Bloomberg Now.

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Speaker 1: German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she would prefer to go

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Speaker 1: ahead with new federal elections rather than try to form

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Speaker 1: a minority government. Uh, she is weighing her options after

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Speaker 1: the collapse of four party coalition talks late Sunday. Here

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Speaker 1: to talk about the implications of this is Kit Jukes.

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Speaker 1: He is chief global FX strategist for CETE General. He's

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Speaker 1: coming to us from London. Kit, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us. You know, there was a little bit

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Speaker 1: of weakening in the euro initially last night as we

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Speaker 1: got news of four party coalition talks breaking up yesterday.

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Speaker 1: That has reversed. But this latest bit of information might

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Speaker 1: change the picture. What's your take. Yeah, this latest piece

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Speaker 1: will see the eurocon a little bit of pressure again.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's obviously going to be a lot of

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Speaker 1: uncertainty that there's I guess potentially four outcomes. You know

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Speaker 1: that they continue or they've resumed the coalition talks and

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Speaker 1: this Jamaica coalition revives itself. I suppose that's still technically possible,

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Speaker 1: or you can have a minority government, which Angler Michal

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Speaker 1: says she's not planning at the moment where she remains

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Speaker 1: as chancellor and relies on presumably the FDP to to

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Speaker 1: support her when she needs support. On on an ad

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Speaker 1: hoc basis, that would have looked like very little change

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Speaker 1: to an outsider who would have had significant domestic implications.

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Speaker 1: But it would have been the kind of government you

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Speaker 1: might have seen various other bits of Europe. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's what was giving the market caused to say, look,

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Speaker 1: this isn't this isn't concerning us too much. We've never

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Speaker 1: had we've never had a minority government in Germany since

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Speaker 1: the sort of modern times, since since the Second World War,

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Speaker 1: I don't think, and we've not had fresh elections to

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Speaker 1: try to solve the problems that way over that period either.

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Speaker 1: But that's the other alternatives, so and will continue with

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Speaker 1: the uncertainty. I still, you know, when we look at

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Speaker 1: the potential outcomes for markets, if the foreign stange markets

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Speaker 1: relatively insucient um, the fixed income market equally, so it

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Speaker 1: hasn't had a significant impact on on European government bonds.

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Speaker 1: It's not making people nervous. The European central banks sits

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Speaker 1: behind the markets and keeps things calm. The economy is

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Speaker 1: moving ahead in Germany, is moving ahead in Europe. So

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Speaker 1: the fact that there's political uncertainty, in fact, stability and

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Speaker 1: status grow, which is all you get with this inability

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Speaker 1: to form a government. It isn't isn't the worst thing

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Speaker 1: to do, you know, to see, but I think the

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Speaker 1: markets they will be nervous until they know what does

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Speaker 1: come out, and I suspect we might be sort of

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Speaker 1: grindingly increasingly nervous over the next few days. Just to

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Speaker 1: tell people, why is it called the Jamaica coalition and

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Speaker 1: has to do with the colors of the Jamaican flag.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to really have to work hard in terms

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Speaker 1: of the colors of the Jamasic coalition. But it's the

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Speaker 1: it's the black, red, yellow, green that you get to

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Speaker 1: get a coalition of the correct of the right, so

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Speaker 1: you get the free Free Democrats are the are the

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Speaker 1: yellow right and the green obviously the green and the

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Speaker 1: Christian Democrats are the black. The Free Democrats their pro business.

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Speaker 1: What do they not like or what do they like

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Speaker 1: about the potential coalition or does it have really to

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Speaker 1: do with migration and immigrants more to do with migration policy.

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Speaker 1: I think that there were accusations within the coalition talks

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Speaker 1: that they planned for a while to be pulling out

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Speaker 1: and that this was a um, you know, an imprompt

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Speaker 1: a move that seems remarkably well planned, if that's the

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Speaker 1: right way of putting it. Um. So, it was always

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Speaker 1: going to be hard to get them in, and they

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Speaker 1: they in a sense, would be the ones who would

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Speaker 1: be happiest with um with continuing with a minority government

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Speaker 1: is saying, right, there are things we don't like, but

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Speaker 1: we'd quite like to have power, and just we're not

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Speaker 1: going to promise a coalition deal where we find up

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Speaker 1: certain things will vacue on an ad hoc basis. Kid,

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Speaker 1: Is it fair to view the latest developments in Germany

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Speaker 1: through the lens of populism and sort of the increase

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Speaker 1: that we've seen in this populist uprising, whether it's the US,

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Speaker 1: or whether it's Italy or Spain or or wherever? I mean?

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Speaker 1: Is it basically another iteration of that, but this time

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Speaker 1: in Europe's most important economy. Well, if we have, if

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Speaker 1: we have another round of elections, I think most people

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Speaker 1: would expect that the big winners would be um the

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Speaker 1: f D party, so the most populist party, and so

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Speaker 1: it would certainly be interpreted that way. I'm part of

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Speaker 1: me wonders whether this is about populism or whether this

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Speaker 1: is about a push away from traditional parties. Um, you

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Speaker 1: could argue, you could argue whether President Trump is populist

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Speaker 1: or isn't really a Republican. He's just flying under the flag.

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Speaker 1: And it's remove away from the sort of heart land

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Speaker 1: of the policies of of of your two main parties

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Speaker 1: in the States and likewise in other countries. So we know,

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Speaker 1: we could we could argue about the terminology, but it's

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Speaker 1: certainly away from the accepted established over the last fifty

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Speaker 1: years sort of order of which are the big political parties,

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Speaker 1: into something that's got a populist element. But it's also

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Speaker 1: i think much more, much more uncertain, much more fluid

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Speaker 1: changes a lot. Wouldn't you expect to see you sell

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Speaker 1: off in European sovereign debt um, Yeah, you know, that

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Speaker 1: is more of a measure of uncertaintyan anything else. And

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Speaker 1: what's happening even now as we speak staring at my

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Speaker 1: screens is um. You know, Spanish and Italian debt is

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Speaker 1: out performing slightly German government today, So m you know,

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Speaker 1: when it's not risk aversion, it's more the Germans are

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Speaker 1: doing less well than the others, which looks like stability

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Speaker 1: from from most angles. So you know, you want to

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Speaker 1: remember that we've still got the European Central Bank buying

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Speaker 1: government bonds on a regular basis and standing by the

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Speaker 1: market and has negative interest rates to underneath it. So um,

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Speaker 1: you know, when everything's difficult, there aren't very many government

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Speaker 1: bonds to sell, and and that is almost coming back

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Speaker 1: to the core of it. At this point in time,

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Speaker 1: the European Central Bank is is what matters most. The

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Speaker 1: euro is weakening on this news against the dollar now

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Speaker 1: at one point one seven. Do you think that it

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Speaker 1: will continue to weekend through year end and kind of

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Speaker 1: give rise to strengthen the dollar. I'll give you about

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Speaker 1: twenty seconds. We've been stuck between a one one eighty

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Speaker 1: range for almost so long I can't remember or dream

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Speaker 1: of a life outside that. I think we'll still be

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Speaker 1: in that range at Christmas. I'm a bread, thank you

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Speaker 1: very much. A kid. Jukes he is chief a global

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Speaker 1: effect strategist for Association or EL. He's joining us from

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Speaker 1: London and just to note that the European Central Bank

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Speaker 1: President Mario drag will be appearing before a committee on

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Speaker 1: Economic and Monetary Affairs in Brussels. I want to turn

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Speaker 1: our attention now to the world of automobiles, and we

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Speaker 1: have Kevin Tynan. He is the senior autos analyst for

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Intelligence. Kevin bob Lutts, the former GM chief executive.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's been skeptical about Tesla uh and their

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Speaker 1: future for a long time, and he retired from General Motors. UH.

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Speaker 1: He also worked obviously for Ford and Chrysler and BMW,

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Speaker 1: and I believe he's got some very specific comments when

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Speaker 1: it comes to Tesla. He says, boy, the future does

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Speaker 1: not look good. Uh. He says Tesla is doomed. Why

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Speaker 1: do you think he says that, Well, just because of

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Speaker 1: the financial condition and the company. UM. You know he

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Speaker 1: talks about it where you you know, you can't cover

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Speaker 1: your cost of manufacturing. Uh. They've had access to capital

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Speaker 1: basically for free, and it's just not a sustainable model.

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Speaker 1: And the idea that I think the company gets valued

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Speaker 1: as if it's a technology company. And I think Bob

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Speaker 1: Lutz knows at the end of the day, they are manufacturing,

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Speaker 1: and it's expensive to do so, and you have long

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Speaker 1: lead times. Uh. So there's the is a company that's

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Speaker 1: not being valued as an automaker when what they're doing

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Speaker 1: is making automobiles. All right, So let's dig into some

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Speaker 1: of what it's making. Tesla just announced to Great Fan

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Speaker 1: Fan Fair trucks, autonomous trucks and electric trucks, and uh.

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Speaker 1: There is some speculation, Kevin, that they are pre selling

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Speaker 1: these trucks years ahead of their actually being made in

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Speaker 1: order to raise money to continue production of their current

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Speaker 1: orders rather than have to go to the public markets

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Speaker 1: through Wall Street. Do you think that there is much

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Speaker 1: truth to that? There's there probably is some truth to that.

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Speaker 1: I think at the end of the day, though, what

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Speaker 1: what they will need in the next capital rays will

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Speaker 1: be sooner and much a much, much larger scale than

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Speaker 1: what they would get through these you know, thousand roadster

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Speaker 1: uh deposits. Uh probably somewhere in the ballpark of two

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Speaker 1: billion dollars. You know, if you just look at their

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Speaker 1: cash burn run raid and what they have in the bank, Uh,

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Speaker 1: you're probably looking at miden where you know, and that's

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Speaker 1: assuming running it right to the edge. UM. And I

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Speaker 1: think one thing that they didn't do. They've had that

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Speaker 1: one profitable quarter of that third quarter last year, UM,

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Speaker 1: and they didn't go right to the market then. And

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Speaker 1: it's more of an issue of you have this fanfare

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Speaker 1: from the truck and the roads to UM and you

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Speaker 1: know you're gonna need to go back. I would be

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Speaker 1: doing it now while the hype is high, although the

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Speaker 1: stocks down big today. UM, you know, sort of doing

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Speaker 1: it when you can instead of when you have to.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about a legal threat that they have.

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Speaker 1: Just to sort of put that two billion dollar potential

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Speaker 1: capital raise into context, there is a four point seven

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Speaker 1: billion dollar legal settlement that could be coming up for Tesla.

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Speaker 1: We haven't heard that much about this. Do you care

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Speaker 1: about this? Um? Yeah. There's a lot of noise, UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, from a lot of different parties, and and

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Speaker 1: you just think about uh, you know, the union, U,

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Speaker 1: A W trying to get in there. You know. So

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Speaker 1: it's I think you really have to be careful and

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Speaker 1: sift through that, he said, She said kind of things

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Speaker 1: that go on around this company. And really what I

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Speaker 1: try and do in that case is is get beyond

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Speaker 1: you know, that noise, the noise of this truck and

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Speaker 1: roaster and really get into what this what it's going

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Speaker 1: to take for this company to get Model three out

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Speaker 1: and delivered, um, you know, because that's the core business

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Speaker 1: that's going to enable them to fund all these other projects.

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Speaker 1: And really until that happens, there's a lot of this

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Speaker 1: other noise going on. Well, I wondered, Kevin, if you

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Speaker 1: could just speak a little bit about the credibility that

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk has, because in July when they announced the

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Speaker 1: Model three, they were anticipating a production rate of about

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Speaker 1: twenty thousand cars a month by the end of December,

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Speaker 1: And I read a couple of notes over the weekend

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Speaker 1: that said that Tesla produced two hundred and sixty Model

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Speaker 1: threes in the last quarter. That's three a day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and it's really a different world in that sense him.

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Speaker 1: You know, we we think back to you know, Ala

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Speaker 1: Molally and and you know, even yeah, you know, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, under under promise and over deliver, and then

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Speaker 1: this is really a very different scenario areo. You know.

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Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, I think the

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Speaker 1: people that are are long the Tesla stock will say, well,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really hit that many targets but he gets

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Speaker 1: there eventually and what he does deliver is really good. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but if you were able to if you did this

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Speaker 1: at let's say GM, which I think, what are they

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Speaker 1: selling how many vaults of five thousands? Well they did

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Speaker 1: about last month yea, so um no, But you're right

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Speaker 1: to your point. There's a lot of things and and

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Speaker 1: even electric vehicle technology in the first place. If you remember,

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Speaker 1: early in the early days of Model Left, there were

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Speaker 1: some fires just because of the battery chemistry, where I

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Speaker 1: think investors looked at General Motors and Ford and said,

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Speaker 1: how come you guys aren't doing this, And they said, look,

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Speaker 1: if we put cars out there that went on fire, we'd,

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Speaker 1: you know, we'd be crucified for that. So we're waiting

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Speaker 1: for the technology to develop to where we can put

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Speaker 1: vehicles out there safely. Autopilot as Tesla calls it. Is

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Speaker 1: another thing that General Motors could not get away with

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Speaker 1: any deaths in that we see what happens with the

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Speaker 1: ignition recall and what happens there the sort of idea

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Speaker 1: of beta testing on your customers. General Motors, Ford, Fiat

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Speaker 1: Christ are all the big manufacturers, the global manufacturers, Toyota,

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Speaker 1: couldn't get away with that. I'm just wondering when you

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Speaker 1: said about the people who are sticking with Tesla, I mean,

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Speaker 1: isn't a big part of this that the people sticking

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Speaker 1: with Tesla or Elon Musk himself that he owns a

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Speaker 1: good proportion of the shares. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, but there

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Speaker 1: is a very loyal I mean, he in an industry

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Speaker 1: that is seen as company dinosaur companies. You know, he's

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Speaker 1: he's a breath of fresh air because his vision is

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Speaker 1: sort of unlimited. Um, you know, so, I think there's

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of believers in that sense that that

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Speaker 1: he's a disruptor and that this is the new Norman.

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Speaker 1: This is the kick that the auto industry needed, right.

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Speaker 1: Kevin Tynan, thank you so much for joining us. Kevin

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Speaker 1: Tynan is our senior autos analyst for Bloomberg Intelligence. He's

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Speaker 1: coming to us from our b I headquarters in Princeton,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey. Marvel Technology has agreed to buy the chip

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Speaker 1: maker Cavium for a cash and stock deal valued at

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Speaker 1: about six billion dollars, and this will set up more

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Speaker 1: competition with industry giants such as Intel and the Broadcom

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Speaker 1: Here to tell us more about This is ed Hamming,

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Speaker 1: our deals reporter for Bloomberg and ed uh, this seems

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Speaker 1: like a bid to really consolidate not only the semiconductors

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Speaker 1: that are used for data storage, but also communications and

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Speaker 1: networking chips, because that is Caviums hotspot, right exactly that

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Speaker 1: and that's that's really the key to this deal. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you if you want to think about it like this,

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Speaker 1: this is really Marvel buying future. Because my vows business

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Speaker 1: is in hard drives, which obviously you know, we use

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Speaker 1: less and less. It's it's very slow growth, it's fairly stable,

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Speaker 1: but what they don't have is anything that would take

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Speaker 1: them into sort of the modern era in terms of having,

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Speaker 1: as you say, sort of networking processes. So that's what

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Speaker 1: they get through this deal with Cavium, which is why

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Speaker 1: you're seeing it's you know, it's a fairly healthy premium.

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Speaker 1: But also crucially you've seen Marvel's stock rise quite a

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Speaker 1: lot this morning on the back of this news. All right,

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Speaker 1: so let's talk about that premium. I mean, as we've

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Speaker 1: been talking, this has been a very active year for

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Speaker 1: chipmaker consolidation, at least discussions of such activity. And I'm

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Speaker 1: just wondering, is anyone questioning the prices that are being paid.

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Speaker 1: Marvel is shelling out or has agreed to shell out

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Speaker 1: about six billion dollars for Cavium, which, as you say,

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Speaker 1: is a premium. Is anyone saying it's too much at

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Speaker 1: this point? They're not. There's so much consolidation in the

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Speaker 1: space that you know, I think investors are rewarding those

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Speaker 1: companies are going out and acquiring because it's sort of

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Speaker 1: acquire or be acquired, and so there is some sense that, look,

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Speaker 1: Marvel does this deal now with Cavium, but that doesn't

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Speaker 1: actually take Marvel off the table in terms of being

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Speaker 1: a takeout targe itself. Um, and you saw on a

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Speaker 1: much much larger scale just a few weeks ago, and

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Speaker 1: Broadcom obviously announced the deal for or an offer for Quidcome.

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Speaker 1: I should say that value the company at a hundred

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Speaker 1: and five billion, which seems like an absurdly large amount

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Speaker 1: of money. Even then you saw Broadcom shares rise quite

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Speaker 1: a lot on the back of that announcement. I'm just wondering,

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Speaker 1: you know, in five years, are we going to view

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Speaker 1: this as exuberance that perhaps has the tint of a

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Speaker 1: rationality just because typically, desperation does not make for good deals. No,

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Speaker 1: it does not. And look, you could say that across

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Speaker 1: the market at the moment, I think we're seeing in

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Speaker 1: every sector sort of heavy, heavy number of deals and

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Speaker 1: and high price is paid. And you know, these are

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Speaker 1: premiums on top of what are already historically sort of

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Speaker 1: absurdly inflated levels in the stock market. So you know,

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Speaker 1: with the benefit of hindsight, a lot of these deals

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Speaker 1: and I don't limit this just to the semiconduct space.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of these deals will be called

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Speaker 1: into question the amount of people paying. But the thing

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Speaker 1: worth mentioning here is that you know a lot of

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Speaker 1: the consideration for this is in the form of stock.

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Speaker 1: So if you are Marvel, it's like, you know your

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Speaker 1: currency is inflated, you're paying a full premium for someone else.

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Speaker 1: But hey, you know, as long as you're a value,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't matter. I was gonna say forty six billion dollars, right,

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Speaker 1: that's the price tag I believe for qual Calm wanting

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Speaker 1: to buy n XP, which I believe they just got

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Speaker 1: the Japanese approps approval, right, so that may go through.

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Speaker 1: And then as you just describe, you've got broad Calm

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Speaker 1: making this bid for qual Calm, So in a sense,

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Speaker 1: Broadcom will own if it's successful, they'll own qual Calm

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Speaker 1: plus n XP and that's a one hundred and five

430
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Speaker 1: billion dollars. But there's news out that one of the

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00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: larger owners of I believe qual Calm stock says give

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00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: us at least ten percent ten dollars more per ten

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Speaker 1: dollars more. Right, So, our colleagues in San Francisco did

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Speaker 1: this great story that came out this morning where they've

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00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 1: talked to a number of the big institutional investors in

436
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: Qualcom to sort of say, well, look what what would

437
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,239
Speaker 1: knock this over? What would be enough to get you

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00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: guys to agree, And yeah, it sounds like a ten

439
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: dollar or they're about it's bumped from where we are

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Speaker 1: now would be enough, Which again, look that's a huge,

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Speaker 1: huge price and a very high multiple. But Broadcom has

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Speaker 1: built itself up through acquisitions and it's if you look

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00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: at broad up chairs I think they're up sort of

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00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: you know, in the region this year. So this is

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Speaker 1: something investors not just in this space but across the

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00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: market are rewarding those companies that go out and do deals. Alright, ed, Well,

447
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: this consolidation does have a potential loser, right, because if

448
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 1: these marriages end up with bigger chip makers that have

449
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: better pricing power, isn't that a problem for carmakers and

450
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 1: for Apple? I mean, who's the biggest loser here? You know,

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00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 1: Apple is almost a sort of outlier because they have

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Speaker 1: so much power themselves as we're seeing them. They're sort

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Speaker 1: of litigating with Qualcom at the moment. But I think

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00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: you're right. For the smaller customers, this is potentially a

455
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: problem because you're seeing so much consolidation, you're seeing a

456
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: shrinking supplier base. Um. You know, I think with with

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Speaker 1: this particular deal of the Marvel deal, one of the

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00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: arguments that they could Perford is, look, yes we're both

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00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: in the chip space, but we're in very different parts

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Speaker 1: of One is as as you mentioned it, sort of

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Speaker 1: network processing, and one is in hard drives, which is

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00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,479
Speaker 1: a not quite yet redundant technology, but it is certainly

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00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: something that's going out. I think where you're going to

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00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: see problems is when these companies, you know, like Marvel,

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00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 1: which you're going to be built up through doing acquisitions,

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00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: when someone else goes out to buy them, it's then

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Speaker 1: also almost impossible that you don't have overlaps at Hammond,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Fascinating issue this

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Speaker 1: year of the chip maker takeover Marvel buying its rival

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Speaker 1: Caveum for about six billion dollars. At Hammond is a

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Deals reporter and it's joining us here in our

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Speaker 1: eleven three oh studios. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

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00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: P and L podcast. You can subscribe and listen to

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00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: interviews at Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whatever podcast platform you prefer.

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00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: I'm pim Fox. I'm on Twitter at pim Fox. I'm

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00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Lisa Abramo. It's one before the podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can always catch us worldwide ID on Bloomberg Radio

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Speaker 1: m