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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

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Speaker 2: This is the show where we look back on our

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Speaker 2: old episodes from 2018 with all new insights and case

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Speaker 2: updates and topical cultural references.

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Speaker 1: Today we're rewinding to episode 119, which we named Fingers Everywhere.

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Speaker 1: This episode originally came out on May 3rd, 2018. Let's

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Speaker 1: listen to the intro of episode 119.

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Speaker 2: Oh, hello and welcome. Hi, welcome.

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Speaker 3: Are you saying that to me? I'm reiterating. Oh, because

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Speaker 3: welcome to you. Welcome to you, Karen.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Welcome everyone to My Favorite Murder, the podcast.

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Speaker 2: This is a podcast where we talk about true crime,

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Speaker 2: you know, and everything else under the sun.

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Speaker 3: Everything we can even imagine.

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Speaker 2: Oh my God, we're getting into a lot of religious

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Speaker 2: stuff lately. spirituality I'm I'm.

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Speaker 4: More spiritual than religious I'm not religious I'm more spirit

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Speaker 4: no but I hear people saying that on dates behind

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Speaker 4: me at restaurants all the time and I just want

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Speaker 4: to punch them in the face I.

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Speaker 2: Would love to sit behind a date where they were

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Speaker 2: like I am strictly religious and I think spirituality is

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Speaker 2: wrong yeah I'm here for the rules and the books

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Speaker 2: and I don't care about the soul or the feeling

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Speaker 2: I would.

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Speaker 4: Be relieved to hear that in LA you'll never hear

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Speaker 4: that in LA.

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Speaker 2: I witness, I feel like in the LA, in LA,

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Speaker 2: I witness so many Tinder dates or like coffee meetups. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I get, I get so involved.

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Speaker 2: Oh, like how? Well, I'm a humongous eavesdropper. I'll fucking

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Speaker 2: eavesdrop on anybody. Me too. How can you not? Like.

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Speaker 4: It's not eavesdropping. It's listening to the conversation going on.

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Speaker 4: That is going on way too loudly.

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Speaker 2: Always. Near you.

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Speaker 3: Because it's a city full of actors.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: And everybody thinks they should be heard.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 2: But then they're talking about stuff. That they think is

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Speaker 2: unique and interesting. Like us, for example, on this podcast.

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Speaker 2: Like true crime. Why talk about it if you're not

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Speaker 2: going to record it? Like this murder. You know what

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Speaker 2: makes me? It's because I have a problem with vulnerability.

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Speaker 2: So when two people are sitting in front of each

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Speaker 2: other trying to present themselves as here's my most interesting,

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Speaker 2: it makes me want to vomit into the closest garbage

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Speaker 2: can for seven hours. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: The garbage can?

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Speaker 4: Because there's also a composting can and there's also a recycling.

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Speaker 4: And there's also the coffee place I go to has a... um,

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Speaker 4: an area to put your like coffee sleeve in to

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Speaker 4: recycle the sleeve.

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Speaker 2: Oh, okay.

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Speaker 4: Which I think has to be definitely against health codes,

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Speaker 4: but I do it anyways.

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Speaker 2: Um, oh, well my, first of all, my vomit would

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Speaker 2: definitely go into composting.

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Speaker 5: Sure.

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Speaker 3: Cause that's just going to churn.

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Speaker 5: Up all that mulch.

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Speaker 2: You don't need plastic bottles.

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Speaker 3: The acid is going to break down all of those eggshells.

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Speaker 4: Cause every place you go into here has three bins

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Speaker 4: and you sit there and stare at them and I'm

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Speaker 4: going on a tirade.

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Speaker 2: Go on. Three bins, 17 actors. Everybody's trying to hook up.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then if you want to reuse a coffee sleeve. Wait, now,

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Speaker 2: is that voluntary or are they just going to reuse

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Speaker 2: those coffee sleeves and you don't know about it as

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Speaker 2: the person buying what you think is a new coffee

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Speaker 2: with a new sleeve?

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Speaker 3: I bet you think it's new and it's not new.

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Speaker 3: You think that's true? With their dirty fingers all over it?

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Speaker 2: How could that be?

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Speaker 5: No.

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Speaker 2: I'd rather burn my fingers. Your fingers are where you put,

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Speaker 2: you put your fingers everywhere. I put my fingers everywhere.

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Speaker 2: Do you know?

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Speaker 3: Do you know?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You know that about me. I'm confronting you. That's

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Speaker 2: how I meant that sentence.

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Speaker 3: You've been on tour with me. I meant to say

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Speaker 3: stop putting your fingers everywhere.

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Speaker 2: Oh, shit.

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Speaker 5: Okay.

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Speaker 2: All right. Speaking of which, and I'm sorry for the segue. Okay.

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Speaker 2: Someone started a hashtag hot for holes and it is wrong.

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Speaker 3: It's filthy.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 3: It's making us look bad.

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Speaker 2: Say what you think. And it is the funniest thing

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Speaker 2: I've ever seen. Hot for holes is obviously our love

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Speaker 2: of our lives. Paul Holes.

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Speaker 4: Paul Holes.

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Speaker 2: The criminologist who solved the Golden State Killer among many people.

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Speaker 2: But you know, he would defer. Oh, no. Oh, no, no, no.

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Speaker 2: I didn't do anything.

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 4: Someone made like a, it looks like a, um, science

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Speaker 4: project poster board, uh, thing of just photos of him,

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Speaker 4: cut out photos of him all over it.

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Speaker 2: I should, I believe you can find that under the

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Speaker 2: hashtag hot for holes. I bet you fucking can. Um,

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Speaker 2: he's wearing all different kinds of Oakley blades and all

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Speaker 2: different sun settings.

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Speaker 3: Um, but someone else made a really good point. They

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Speaker 3: posted a photo of him.

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Speaker 4: They saw him in an old episodes of like forensic

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Speaker 4: files and said, uh, He's aged well because he doesn't

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Speaker 4: look so hot as.

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Speaker 3: A young man.

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Speaker 2: Bullshit.

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Speaker 5: I agree.

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Speaker 2: He looks... I would have.

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Speaker 4: I would have fucking punched his puka shell wearing face

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Speaker 4: in the fucking face.

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Speaker 2: Like, he just didn't look that hot. You're not into

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Speaker 2: early Paul Holtz?

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Speaker 4: No, I'm into later stages. Like, he looks like he's

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Speaker 4: been hanging out on... What's the island with the tequila

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Speaker 4: with the guy who sings in it?

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Speaker 2: Hawaii?

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Speaker 5: No.

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Speaker 2: Margaritaville? Yes. No, no, no. Stephen's Island? Margaritaville?

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Speaker 3: Stephen's Island. You know, the one with the.

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Speaker 2: Cabo? Yes. With the tequila. I don't think that's an island. No.

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Speaker 2: We got to go on tour to Mexico. Edit this out. Yes,

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Speaker 2: he definitely has vacationed along Baja, California. But here I

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Speaker 2: have to say, first of all, I was talking to

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Speaker 2: my sister on the phone this morning and she called

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Speaker 2: Paul Hulls the Indiana Jones of criminology. And I couldn't

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Speaker 2: stop laughing. She goes, I'm not kidding. I like wrote

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Speaker 2: I love you on my eyelids as I was watching

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Speaker 2: this interview. Oh, my God. He gave some hour long

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Speaker 2: interview on KTVU, which is our channel to our home station.

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Speaker 2: No way.

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Speaker 3: Which we grew up watching. There's only one, too.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing. And so she called me this morning to

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Speaker 2: give me, like, basically the lowdown. That is the best

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Speaker 2: description of anyone I've ever heard in my life.

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Speaker 3: Am I right?

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Speaker 2: Yes. Laura. A plus. Also, it's funny because Laura is

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Speaker 2: not interested in true crime whatsoever. She's just taking this

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Speaker 2: ride with us. Love it.

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Speaker 3: So she, like, gets into it because she knows we

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Speaker 3: go crazy.

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Speaker 2: My sister, too.

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Speaker 3: I don't think she gives two shits, but she's, like,

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Speaker 3: happy that.

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Speaker 4: that I'm finally getting my need for attention met so

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Speaker 4: she doesn't have.

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Speaker 2: To deal with we really guys.

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Speaker 3: Anymore yeah.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever wanted more attention in your life oh

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Speaker 2: my god um anyway.

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Speaker 4: Salute to Paul Hulls yeah speaking of what I don't

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Speaker 4: know pick one DNA yeah go DNA okay so we're

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Speaker 4: so Stephen just sent us as we walked in to

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Speaker 4: class that's what I'm calling this today um a link

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Speaker 4: of so people are losing their shit because it comes

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Speaker 4: out that they found the golden state killer by uh

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Speaker 4: getting the familial dna off some fucking person that was like.

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Speaker 2: I want to know what i am you know like

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Speaker 2: from fucking wherever just just tell.

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Speaker 3: Yourself you're dutch spanish yeah.

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Speaker 4: Whatever you think you are i learned this by submitting

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Speaker 4: my dna to 23andme you're whatever you think you are

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Speaker 4: what else is there uh.

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Speaker 3: So someone was like, what am I?

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Speaker 4: And they sent their DNA in to a half-rate fucking

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Speaker 4: company that didn't have the protection that 23andMe has and

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Speaker 4: all these other, and Ancestry.com has, that are like, we

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Speaker 4: won't give your fucking DNA away.

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Speaker 2: Well, they actually said, though, I read an article where

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Speaker 2: they had in their disclaimer, it said... If you are

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Speaker 2: afraid you may have committed a crime or you don't

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Speaker 2: want to be searched like we we do not keep

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Speaker 2: these DNA profiles out of that. So don't submit your.

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Speaker 2: And like that's always been their customer service thing.

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Speaker 4: It really annoyed me that like last week. So I

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Speaker 4: took I took myself off Twitter because I just couldn't

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Speaker 4: handle it anymore. But so the last I saw was like.

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Speaker 4: You know, what's what does this mean for public safety?

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Speaker 2: Blah, blah, blah.

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Speaker 4: And it's like, no, it wasn't a big fucking company.

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Speaker 4: If it's not like a big deal, it's not everyone.

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Speaker 4: Calm fucking down, everyone. Let's talk about this murderer and

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Speaker 4: what he did instead.

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Speaker 2: That'd be great.

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Speaker 4: So but they're going to run Zodiacs. Stephen told us

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Speaker 4: DNA through this company.

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Speaker 3: Yes. That'll be fun. No, they, I saw that article.

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Speaker 3: They said they aren't saying what company they're running it through.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 4: Cause I was like, someone's going to kill them. Some

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Speaker 4: old man is about to kill himself tonight.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: When he sees that.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's keep our eye out for any, uh, well,

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Speaker 2: how old would he be now in his late nineties? Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that would be exciting. It would be very cool.

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Speaker 2: I agree with the people who are worried about there

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Speaker 2: have to be restrictions or there has to be privacy.

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Speaker 2: If you are spitting on a piece of cotton and

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Speaker 2: sending it to some company because you want to find

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Speaker 2: out just how Dutch you are, fuck you.

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Speaker 3: You're on it.

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Speaker 2: Then you're in the mix. You're in the game. It's

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Speaker 2: too late. You're done. And also, you know, like if they...

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Speaker 2: They have to have probable cause. You know our boy,

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Speaker 2: Paul Holes, lined it up so that it's like this thing,

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Speaker 2: if they were going to do it and get the

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Speaker 2: answer in a certain way. And I understand how outsiders

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Speaker 2: don't trust this.

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Speaker 3: I trust Paul Holes.

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Speaker 2: He did it by the book because they don't want

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Speaker 2: it to fall apart in court.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know Sally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: And you know Sally Holes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh my God. Who's Sally Holes?

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Speaker 4: I was going to say that, you know, Sally and

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Speaker 4: HR at whatever fucking DNA company who like Paul Holes

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Speaker 4: came up to her and was like, I'm going to

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Speaker 4: tell you why you're going to do this. Like, I

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Speaker 4: need this. And she was just like, there was no chance.

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Speaker 4: And then she wrote Mrs. Sally Holes over and over again.

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Speaker 2: That's what I was going to say. My favorite thing

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Speaker 2: is so many people are now recognizing dirty jokes. Like

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Speaker 2: I got one the other day where I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: I thought I got, I thought I was being trolled.

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Speaker 2: Whereas like, I'd like to investigate some of these holes

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Speaker 2: where I'm like, oh, I get it. People are really

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Speaker 2: experimenting with their blue comedy. With this specific combination of nouns.

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Speaker 4: Well, all we need to do is add them to

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Speaker 4: Karen's list of men she loves with last names that are.

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Speaker 2: Nouns.

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Speaker 5: Nouns.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: It's just, we've got Jimmy Buttons.

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Speaker 2: Buttons.

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Speaker 3: We've got Paul Onions.

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Speaker 2: Onions. Now we've got Mr.

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Speaker 1: Holes.

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Speaker 3: There's one other one. Someone made a really great, like.

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Speaker 2: Jackets!

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Speaker 3: But Jackets was a bad guy.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I don't love that guy.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: Well, he's one of yours. He's still one of yours.

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Speaker 2: He is one of the characters in my universe. But

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Speaker 2: he's not canon. Oh, what I was going to talk

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Speaker 2: about is... Yesterday in Los Angeles, we had a high

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Speaker 2: speed chase. Right.

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Speaker 3: I didn't see that. With a Winnebago.

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Speaker 2: And it was nuts.

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Speaker 4: Explain that to me. How high speed does this... Like,

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Speaker 4: what is high speed definition? Because.

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Speaker 2: Well, think about it. In LA, you can't fucking get

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Speaker 2: anywhere over 35 miles an hour. So there was a

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Speaker 2: Winnebago going 55 up. I think it did a... 5, 134,

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Speaker 2: 170 transition.

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Speaker 3: Oh, you can't do that on more than 10 miles

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Speaker 3: an hour the whole time.

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Speaker 2: Well, this thing was flying up the freeway. I saw

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Speaker 2: Brandy Posey, our friend from the great podcast, Lady to Lady.

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Speaker 2: She tweeted it. We've got a live one and then

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Speaker 2: posted the link. And I was at the mall and

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Speaker 2: I pulled out my earbuds, sat down and watched the

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Speaker 2: live feed at the mall because I was like, what?

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Speaker 3: I did not know you were that kind of girl.

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Speaker 2: I love a high-speed chase.

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Speaker 3: They worry me. I don't like them. They worry me.

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Speaker 2: They're worrisome.

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Speaker 3: That's part of what I love. Like, I can't take

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Speaker 3: my eyes off it.

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Speaker 2: And... Steve and I were just talking about there, there,

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Speaker 2: they happen in LA a lot because we've got a

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Speaker 2: lot of freeways and a lot of action, but it

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Speaker 2: turned out. So my, my friend Dan Telfer was also

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Speaker 2: a comic. So he's, I like him on Twitter. He's hilarious.

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Speaker 2: He's a great writer. Um, he used to work on

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Speaker 2: at midnight and he's just cool. And he's listened to

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Speaker 2: us from the beginning.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Dan. And, uh, And supportive. So anyway, he

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Speaker 3: got in... What if he was unsupportive?

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Speaker 2: He's listened to us.

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Speaker 3: Highly critical of most of what we do.

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Speaker 2: Hates us. No, he... He was in mine and Brandy's conversation.

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Speaker 2: And then at one point sent the follow-up article about

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Speaker 2: what had happened. And it's very dark because it's this

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Speaker 2: guy who was a registered sex offender grabbing sex with

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Speaker 2: children under the age of 14. Stop it. And he

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Speaker 2: was in that Winnebago with his three-year-old son and 11-month-old daughter.

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Speaker 2: They had been, they were from, I want to say

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Speaker 2: they were from Washington State or Oregon State. Yeah. And

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Speaker 2: they were down in San Diego, I believe, and something

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Speaker 2: happened and he took off with the kids. Dude. And

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Speaker 2: he was on the phone with his mother and his

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Speaker 2: wife the whole time. And he ended up getting arrested.

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Speaker 2: The kids are safe. He's a pedophile and.

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Speaker 3: He has a mother and a wife?

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Speaker 2: That's not fair. Oh, sorry. Can I do a sidebar? Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: From that story. I had just gotten a coffee at

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Speaker 2: Starbucks in the mall. And as I was ordering my coffee,

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Speaker 2: the girl I was talking to, I saw her writing,

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Speaker 2: you know... Starbucks, they write your order on the, on

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Speaker 2: the dirty sleeve.

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Speaker 4: Can I say before you say anything, I know the

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Speaker 4: other side of this story because she posted it on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's then I was going to tell you the

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Speaker 2: other side of the story because my friend Vicki, as

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Speaker 2: I was shopping, sent me what she posted.

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Speaker 5: Oh, okay.

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Speaker 4: So you're in, okay. So you're in Starbucks. You see

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Speaker 4: a chick writing a thing down on the dirty sleeve.

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Speaker 3: I see her and I'm like giving my order.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Which is a little bit confusing.

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Speaker 2: What is it? It's a double tall, one pump mocha.

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Speaker 5: Okay.

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Speaker 3: So it's, as people are always like, what? But it's like,

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Speaker 3: they put too much.

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Speaker 2: Double.

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Speaker 3: If it's that small, they put too much chocolate in it.

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Speaker 2: You want a double.

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Speaker 4: You want it not that big. Because you don't want

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Speaker 4: that much milk. And you want only one pump of mocha, please.

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Speaker 4: Just a nice suggestion of mocha.

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Speaker 3: Not, don't drown me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So she's writing it down. But I see that

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Speaker 2: she does all the, you know, M and one and all.

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Speaker 2: And then I see her write S S D. Then

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Speaker 2: she does a weird thing and then throws it away.

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00:14:15,070 --> 00:14:16,969
Speaker 2: And I was about to go, wait, were you going to,

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Speaker 2: and I was going to do the funny confrontation. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But then she, we, I don't know, something else happened. There's,

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Speaker 2: it was, there was a lot happening. Yeah. So I

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Speaker 2: didn't confront her. I thought it'd be funny, but there's

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Speaker 2: a bunch of people in line, whatever. Uh, then. So

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Speaker 2: in her new one, she just rewrites the order again

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Speaker 2: and sends it. Then the order goes through her boss.

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Speaker 2: I'm standing over there waiting. And then her, her boss

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Speaker 2: or the person making it. And I found it. It

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Speaker 2: was her boss after goes, do you want whipped cream

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Speaker 2: on this? And I said, no, thanks. At which she,

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Speaker 2: which the person who was ringing me up already asked.

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Speaker 2: And I said, no, but she didn't remember to put

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Speaker 2: it on the second sleeve. So then she gets yelled

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Speaker 2: at for not putting it on the sleeve. And I

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Speaker 2: was about to go again, about to, but didn't do it.

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Speaker 2: I was about to go, Oh no, she asked me.

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Speaker 2: I just, she, you know, like she did ask me that.

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Speaker 2: But then I was like, I can't get involved. Then

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Speaker 2: high speed chase.

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Speaker 3: I'm drawn away.

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Speaker 2: Then my friend, Vicki Ernst, who lives in New York,

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Speaker 2: does the funniest part and was far away from me.

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Speaker 2: She said, she sends me, a text that goes, I

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Speaker 2: don't understand what your life is now. And then it's

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Speaker 2: the Facebook post from Rachel.

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Speaker 3: What does it say?

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00:15:30,910 --> 00:15:33,730
Speaker 2: She says, I normally don't get rattled when a celebrity

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Speaker 2: comes to Starbucks, but it's LA and it happens. No brag,

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00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,760
Speaker 2: no brag, no brag. Uh, And now reading this sounds stupid,

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Speaker 2: but she basically said, I lost my mind on the inside.

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Speaker 3: My hands were shaking. That's not true. I didn't see

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Speaker 3: any hands shaking.

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Speaker 2: I was so nervous. Tried to sneak an SSD GM

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Speaker 2: on the cup, but couldn't. Worst of all, my supervisor

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Speaker 2: chastised me in front of her. Embarrassment level 10,000.

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Speaker 3: Well, that was my Tuesday. Maybe next time I'll be cooler. Rachel,

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Speaker 3: you couldn't have been cooler.

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00:16:03,290 --> 00:16:06,500
Speaker 2: There was no indication on your face. or anywhere that

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00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:09,120
Speaker 2: you knew who I was or anything to the point

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Speaker 2: where when I saw you starting to write SSD, I

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Speaker 2: didn't want to be the asshole who was like, are

383
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Speaker 2: you writing my thing? So I just didn't say anything.

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Speaker 3: That's how cool you were.

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Speaker 2: So don't worry about it.

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Speaker 3: You'll be able to handle it.

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00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,800
Speaker 4: Yeah. Next time, just give Karen a free coffee and

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Speaker 4: it'll be fine.

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Speaker 2: Next, I always appreciate people who are just like, uh,

390
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Speaker 2: like I'm not reacting to you whatsoever.

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Speaker 3: But, and thank you for calling me a celebrity. What

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Speaker 3: a joy, Rachel. What a joy. Between that and the

393
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Speaker 3: high speed chase.

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Speaker 2: Fuck.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I had a power day at the mall.

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Speaker 5: Power day.

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Speaker 2: Power day.

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Speaker 3: Um, I was just going to say a quick corrections corner.

399
00:16:45,890 --> 00:16:48,270
Speaker 2: Oh, great. I made fun of the posting that was

400
00:16:48,350 --> 00:16:51,190
Speaker 2: on next, the next door app. Lots of responses about.

401
00:16:51,070 --> 00:16:51,650
Speaker 3: The next door app.

402
00:16:51,770 --> 00:16:55,370
Speaker 2: Hilarious. I mean, there is so much crazy, hilarious stuff

403
00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:58,000
Speaker 2: on there. People posted some really funny stuff. I made

404
00:16:58,060 --> 00:17:01,220
Speaker 2: fun of somebody for posting raccoon in the daytime. We

405
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,670
Speaker 2: immediately got a response. Again, I'm going to get better

406
00:17:05,710 --> 00:17:08,770
Speaker 2: about writing people's names down, but day of... Oh, for

407
00:17:08,790 --> 00:17:10,350
Speaker 2: a second, I thought Stephen was holding up a cue

408
00:17:10,390 --> 00:17:13,450
Speaker 2: card that gave me the person's name. Somebody immediately responded,

409
00:17:13,970 --> 00:17:16,300
Speaker 2: if you see a raccoon in the day, they probably

410
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Speaker 2: have rabies.

411
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,060
Speaker 4: I love that we're... And then I will go ahead

412
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,859
Speaker 4: and say, call the non-emergency police number.

413
00:17:23,940 --> 00:17:24,189
Speaker 2: Not 911.

414
00:17:24,180 --> 00:17:27,760
Speaker 3: No, do not call 911 if you see a day raccoon.

415
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,800
Speaker 3: A day raccoon? Do not approach a day raccoon.

416
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Speaker 4: You almost gave people rabies, Karen.

417
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,990
Speaker 2: If you got rabies, we want to hear about it.

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00:17:38,030 --> 00:17:42,650
Speaker 2: It's like Maury Povich. Do you have rabies and your

419
00:17:42,670 --> 00:17:43,670
Speaker 2: boyfriend cheated on you?

420
00:17:43,690 --> 00:17:46,250
Speaker 4: Kiva, if they're in the fan cult, is there a

421
00:17:46,330 --> 00:17:49,469
Speaker 4: forum of what we've done, how we've done you wrong?

422
00:17:49,550 --> 00:17:49,750
Speaker 2: Yes.

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00:17:49,950 --> 00:17:53,230
Speaker 3: We want to know. I think that does exist, actually.

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00:17:53,270 --> 00:17:53,629
Speaker 4: Does it?

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00:17:53,730 --> 00:17:54,410
Speaker 2: Oh, shit.

426
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Speaker 3: I think that's all my current business. I got nothing.

427
00:17:57,270 --> 00:17:58,790
Speaker 4: Should we get the fuck out of here?

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Speaker 3: Steven, who goes first?

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Speaker 2: Well, last week was the Golden State Killer. Oh, right.

430
00:18:02,570 --> 00:18:06,110
Speaker 2: But then the week before, Karen went first. Okay. All right.

431
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:07,170
Speaker 3: You want to do over or you want me to

432
00:18:07,210 --> 00:18:07,649
Speaker 3: go first?

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Speaker 5: I want to go first.

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00:18:08,869 --> 00:18:09,730
Speaker 2: You go first.

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00:18:09,790 --> 00:18:18,430
Speaker 5: Okay, great. And we're back. Karen, the birth of Hot

436
00:18:18,490 --> 00:18:20,850
Speaker 5: for Holes. How do you feel?

437
00:18:20,930 --> 00:18:27,689
Speaker 2: What a debacle. What a cultural sinkhole that was. I

438
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:32,630
Speaker 2: think this is a great example of us finding out

439
00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:36,390
Speaker 2: how big our audience was in a very real way.

440
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,379
Speaker 2: This and that crazy BuzzFeed meltdown about our book announcement,

441
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,620
Speaker 2: where all of a sudden people are getting like, swarmed.

442
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,109
Speaker 2: There's all this reactivity. But this was like the best

443
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Speaker 2: version of that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

445
00:18:50,190 --> 00:18:50,390
Speaker 2: Yeah.

446
00:18:50,430 --> 00:18:53,669
Speaker 1: This put Paul Hull's like front and center where he

447
00:18:53,730 --> 00:18:56,130
Speaker 1: belongs in his tank top with his.

448
00:18:56,369 --> 00:18:58,190
Speaker 2: With his fish tank and his facts.

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00:18:58,270 --> 00:18:58,810
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

450
00:18:58,830 --> 00:19:02,790
Speaker 2: Just the real person that's about the facts of the.

451
00:19:02,730 --> 00:19:04,990
Speaker 5: Case, please. And the brains. Totally.

452
00:19:05,109 --> 00:19:08,629
Speaker 1: It is very satisfying to watch that, even though it

453
00:19:08,690 --> 00:19:10,429
Speaker 1: was embarrassing at the time because of the.

454
00:19:10,410 --> 00:19:14,910
Speaker 2: Hot for Hull's I know that it sounds dumb, but

455
00:19:14,970 --> 00:19:20,090
Speaker 2: it's hard to remember that this is not a private conversation.

456
00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:22,830
Speaker 1: Especially back then in my apartment. Like right now I'm

457
00:19:22,930 --> 00:19:24,830
Speaker 1: in my like little quote office.

458
00:19:24,910 --> 00:19:26,970
Speaker 5: It's not an office. It's just a fucking room.

459
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,879
Speaker 1: But like, yeah, it's hard to remember that people are

460
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:32,300
Speaker 1: actually listening to this.

461
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,000
Speaker 2: Right. We don't hear from anybody. No. I mean, except

462
00:19:36,020 --> 00:19:37,790
Speaker 2: for in the Gmail. Yeah. And if you have stories

463
00:19:37,830 --> 00:19:41,670
Speaker 2: about Paul Holes, please write to us at MyFavoriteMurder at gmail.com.

464
00:19:41,670 --> 00:19:47,200
Speaker 1: Well, this is also when you got recognized at the

465
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,679
Speaker 1: mall at at starbucks oh yes when she wrote ssdgm

466
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,600
Speaker 1: on the cup yep so like that was the first

467
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,700
Speaker 1: like that was was 2018 so like two years in

468
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,470
Speaker 1: and it was like just starting to happen regularly enough yes.

469
00:20:02,619 --> 00:20:07,130
Speaker 2: You know and from a The Fashion Square Mall, which

470
00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:10,109
Speaker 2: was my home mall for so long. Right. I had

471
00:20:10,130 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 2: gone to that mall. Some of the saddest Christmas shopping

472
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,260
Speaker 2: I've ever done was at that mall alone. And, like,

473
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,340
Speaker 2: you know when you have to go do an errand

474
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,200
Speaker 2: like that, so you just, like, put a bubble around

475
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,659
Speaker 2: yourself of, like, no one will get in and I

476
00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:25,240
Speaker 2: will get out alive? Yes. There were so many years

477
00:20:25,300 --> 00:20:29,919
Speaker 2: of that kind of living. And so I really feel

478
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,660
Speaker 2: like that experience was a special— that person was very, like,

479
00:20:34,050 --> 00:20:37,230
Speaker 2: seemingly emotional or whatever, but I was too, because I'm like,

480
00:20:37,390 --> 00:20:40,889
Speaker 2: this changes the plot here. This is the, this is

481
00:20:40,930 --> 00:20:43,990
Speaker 2: the material way you feel that you are no longer

482
00:20:44,010 --> 00:20:47,470
Speaker 2: the loser you once were for many fucking years.

483
00:20:48,010 --> 00:20:48,250
Speaker 4: Yeah.

484
00:20:48,270 --> 00:20:51,090
Speaker 1: When it started happening regularly in a point where like

485
00:20:51,170 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 1: I could expect it in a certain setting, like, you know,

486
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,649
Speaker 1: out to dinner here in LA or whatever, or like

487
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:57,960
Speaker 1: at an airport for some reason.

488
00:20:57,980 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

489
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,620
Speaker 1: Like that was just this like, I just felt like

490
00:21:02,650 --> 00:21:06,900
Speaker 1: this huge shift in my life completely.

491
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. That's like when Lizzie and I were at Twain's

492
00:21:10,380 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 2: or whatever that diner is on the corner. And I

493
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,359
Speaker 2: was just talking shit. And then the girl and the

494
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,379
Speaker 2: only other people were in the booth behind us. And

495
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 2: the girl comes up after. It's like, I love your podcast.

496
00:21:21,340 --> 00:21:24,439
Speaker 2: I was like, did I use names? What was I

497
00:21:24,510 --> 00:21:27,930
Speaker 2: just saying? Why was I saying any of that? Fucking

498
00:21:28,510 --> 00:21:29,750
Speaker 2: watch your mouth. Privacy.

499
00:21:29,770 --> 00:21:31,690
Speaker 3: But then here's the thing about that.

500
00:21:32,340 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 2: And this is the lamest kind of complaining or whatever,

501
00:21:34,780 --> 00:21:37,460
Speaker 2: but it is a weird thing to then later have

502
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,580
Speaker 2: that experience. So then later tell people like.

503
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,470
Speaker 3: Oh, don't keep your voice down. And then they're like, oh.

504
00:21:42,850 --> 00:21:47,130
Speaker 2: Really, Elvis Presley? Like, it makes you look like an asshole.

505
00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:51,230
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah. Or like change names or change information.

506
00:21:51,250 --> 00:21:52,710
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

507
00:21:53,210 --> 00:21:56,460
Speaker 5: This is when I found out about you loving car chases.

508
00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:00,050
Speaker 2: Oh, my God. There really was a period of time,

509
00:22:00,090 --> 00:22:02,990
Speaker 2: and maybe it's because all of journalism has been suspended

510
00:22:03,030 --> 00:22:06,479
Speaker 2: in this country, but there really was that local news

511
00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 2: breaking into television shows to show you a criminal just

512
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,060
Speaker 2: trying to get away from the LAPD.

513
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,460
Speaker 1: It's a very L.A. thing, I think, because we're so

514
00:22:16,540 --> 00:22:20,440
Speaker 1: car-centric here. And, you know, there's so many people that, like,

515
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 1: of course, there's going to be a lot of criminals.

516
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:22,340
Speaker 2: Yeah.

517
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:23,679
Speaker 3: And a lot of car crime.

518
00:22:23,780 --> 00:22:23,980
Speaker 4: Yeah.

519
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

520
00:22:25,310 --> 00:22:25,710
Speaker 1: I hate it.

521
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:26,300
Speaker 5: I love it.

522
00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:27,810
Speaker 2: You hate a high-speed chase? Oh, yeah.

523
00:22:27,850 --> 00:22:31,330
Speaker 1: I get so nervous about car accidents, and I just don't.

524
00:22:31,510 --> 00:22:33,670
Speaker 1: And they never fucking work.

525
00:22:33,730 --> 00:22:35,050
Speaker 5: They never work.

526
00:22:35,230 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 2: They almost never work. They're so fucking dangerous. And lately,

527
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 2: there's been a couple where on the news live, there's

528
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: a horrible....

529
00:22:45,290 --> 00:22:47,750
Speaker 5: Yeah, I can't watch that.

530
00:22:47,850 --> 00:22:50,950
Speaker 2: It's not the same as that kind of OJ level,

531
00:22:51,170 --> 00:22:53,190
Speaker 2: oh my God, what's happening on the 405 vibe.

532
00:22:53,410 --> 00:22:54,830
Speaker 5: Right, right.

533
00:22:55,030 --> 00:22:57,649
Speaker 2: It used to be fun, and it's not fun anymore.

534
00:22:57,730 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 5: They really ruined car chases. They ruined it.

535
00:23:00,910 --> 00:23:02,970
Speaker 2: But I was just going to say, remember the car

536
00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:05,619
Speaker 2: chase that ended right behind my house in Toluca Lake,

537
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,220
Speaker 2: my old house? Yes, yes. And they did get away.

538
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 5: That's right.

539
00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: That was the one I saw where they did, where

540
00:23:10,619 --> 00:23:12,439
Speaker 2: I was like, I can't believe this is happening.

541
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,540
Speaker 1: Did I ever tell you about, this is so weird,

542
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,060
Speaker 1: but there's a short time in my life where I

543
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 1: lived in Panorama City, which is like deep, deep valley,

544
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 1: like nobody fucking lives there.

545
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 5: It's very weird.

546
00:23:23,260 --> 00:23:24,870
Speaker 3: Was your apartment hot all the time?

547
00:23:25,050 --> 00:23:27,430
Speaker 5: It was so hot there. It was disgusting.

548
00:23:27,850 --> 00:23:30,169
Speaker 1: And In the middle of the night, there was a

549
00:23:30,310 --> 00:23:34,890
Speaker 1: car that drove into a bunch of parked cars right

550
00:23:34,930 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: outside our house. We go outside, X and I, and

551
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,300
Speaker 1: these two dudes are getting out of the car and

552
00:23:41,340 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, we'll be right back because there's all

553
00:23:44,100 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: these neighbors. And they clearly had stolen the car and

554
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,360
Speaker 1: then drunk drove it into a bunch.

555
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,250
Speaker 5: Of parked cars and just fucking... Casually walking away.

556
00:23:53,490 --> 00:23:55,470
Speaker 2: Guys, thank you so much for your support. We'll be

557
00:23:55,510 --> 00:23:56,409
Speaker 2: right back. We'll be right.

558
00:23:56,430 --> 00:24:00,330
Speaker 1: Yeah, they, like, really just, like, good-naturedly peaced out.

559
00:24:00,950 --> 00:24:03,389
Speaker 5: And it worked? Yeah, they were gone. I mean, I

560
00:24:03,410 --> 00:24:05,030
Speaker 5: don't know if they got caught, but, like, the cops

561
00:24:05,050 --> 00:24:05,730
Speaker 5: weren't there by the.

562
00:24:05,670 --> 00:24:07,670
Speaker 2: Time they were gone. George is like, citizens arrest.

563
00:24:08,619 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 5: Just sauntering away from the stolen car accident.

564
00:24:12,420 --> 00:24:14,719
Speaker 2: Another weird thing about, like, you know, if we're going

565
00:24:14,740 --> 00:24:17,100
Speaker 2: to go on the theme of reflecting on old true crime,

566
00:24:17,540 --> 00:24:23,649
Speaker 2: is the... The DNA conversation back then versus now. Yeah.

567
00:24:24,270 --> 00:24:26,070
Speaker 1: Like the, oh no, is this going to be a

568
00:24:26,109 --> 00:24:27,429
Speaker 1: privacy issue thing?

569
00:24:27,450 --> 00:24:27,970
Speaker 5: Yeah.

570
00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 2: Or the reason everyone, like the reason the informed few

571
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: were so keyed up about data privacy is now making

572
00:24:36,780 --> 00:24:37,660
Speaker 2: sense to everybody.

573
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: Right, right.

574
00:24:38,820 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 2: Where people, you know, identities being stolen, all the things

575
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 2: that no one really got before. So then it's like,

576
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,590
Speaker 2: oh yeah, and then they have your DNA.

577
00:24:46,109 --> 00:24:48,950
Speaker 5: Yeah. I never, it's funny, I never put my.

578
00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:52,859
Speaker 1: like results into GEDmatch, which is the one they use

579
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 1: for catching, you know, for what's it called?

580
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 5: Genetic genealogy. Right.

581
00:24:58,980 --> 00:25:01,619
Speaker 1: I just like something made me stop and I don't

582
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 1: know what it is. I partly that I'm like, there's

583
00:25:03,790 --> 00:25:07,010
Speaker 1: no way anyone in my bloodline in my fucking like

584
00:25:07,109 --> 00:25:10,810
Speaker 1: pacifist Jewish bloodline is a serial killer.

585
00:25:10,850 --> 00:25:11,530
Speaker 5: You know what I mean?

586
00:25:11,550 --> 00:25:13,490
Speaker 1: Like I feel like if I were a little more

587
00:25:13,550 --> 00:25:15,830
Speaker 1: mainstream in my bloodline, I would do it.

588
00:25:15,950 --> 00:25:20,500
Speaker 5: But like the chances I can't be high. Or am

589
00:25:20,540 --> 00:25:21,220
Speaker 5: I being naive?

590
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,820
Speaker 2: Or are you afraid you're going to get arrested now

591
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,780
Speaker 2: for shoplifting at a thrifty drugstore?

592
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,060
Speaker 5: Right. I did that when I was a kid.

593
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,250
Speaker 2: Your lip balms. What were they called? The lip smackers?

594
00:25:32,490 --> 00:25:33,169
Speaker 5: Bonnie Bell.

595
00:25:33,270 --> 00:25:33,690
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

596
00:25:34,109 --> 00:25:34,890
Speaker 3: Had to have that Dr.

597
00:25:34,910 --> 00:25:39,430
Speaker 2: Pepper. Okay. Now let's get into George's story about William Hirons,

598
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:49,239
Speaker 2: the lipstick killer. All right. This is.

599
00:25:50,380 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 3: One that I hope you didn't do at a live show.

600
00:25:53,300 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: Well, let's find out.

601
00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:57,850
Speaker 3: This is the lipstick killer, William Hirons.

602
00:25:59,050 --> 00:25:59,490
Speaker 5: Hirons.

603
00:26:00,970 --> 00:26:01,530
Speaker 2: What's that face?

604
00:26:02,050 --> 00:26:03,250
Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember. I don't think you did.

605
00:26:03,350 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 2: Okay, great. She answers her own question. Okay, great. It's

606
00:26:10,420 --> 00:26:11,770
Speaker 2: exactly how I didn't want it to.

607
00:26:11,770 --> 00:26:14,950
Speaker 4: You did a lip-bite-y thing. It looked like, I have

608
00:26:14,970 --> 00:26:15,990
Speaker 4: something bad to tell you.

609
00:26:16,490 --> 00:26:18,330
Speaker 3: Here's how I can't tell anymore.

610
00:26:18,350 --> 00:26:20,859
Speaker 2: Because we've gone to a bunch of different cities and

611
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 2: we've looked up all these people and we've researched these

612
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,900
Speaker 2: people and then chosen not to do them or whatever.

613
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,350
Speaker 4: But we didn't do it. A bunch of, yeah, I

614
00:26:30,369 --> 00:26:30,990
Speaker 4: don't think we did it.

615
00:26:31,130 --> 00:26:31,540
Speaker 2: Okay, cool.

616
00:26:31,650 --> 00:26:33,619
Speaker 4: And then there was a time before we had, Stephen

617
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,619
Speaker 4: was with us that we did Chicago, a couple of

618
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,899
Speaker 4: Chicago shows. So I can't ask Stephen cause he wouldn't know.

619
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,619
Speaker 3: I don't fuck it.

620
00:26:41,190 --> 00:26:44,629
Speaker 2: Fuck it all. Once our fucking biography comes out, then we'll... Well,

621
00:26:44,650 --> 00:26:47,930
Speaker 2: and also, William Hirons is super famous.

622
00:26:48,250 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 3: Is that the correct pronunciation? I've heard of him.

623
00:26:52,260 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 4: And you've seen a million photos of this, too. Okay.

624
00:26:54,619 --> 00:26:55,179
Speaker 2: He looks.

625
00:26:55,460 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 4: The old photos of him, he looks scary, and you're like, oh,

626
00:26:58,240 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 4: that guy's a murderer, because you've seen his photo a

627
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:00,460
Speaker 4: million times?

628
00:27:00,740 --> 00:27:01,660
Speaker 2: Oh. Is he?

629
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 3: We don't know.

630
00:27:02,460 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 2: Let's find out. Here we go. Great. All right.

631
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,689
Speaker 4: So the lipstick murders started in Chicago just after the

632
00:27:09,770 --> 00:27:12,070
Speaker 4: end of World War II. So World War II is over.

633
00:27:12,090 --> 00:27:15,170
Speaker 4: Everyone's fucking stoked. It's like a great time in America,

634
00:27:15,190 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 4: all this bullshit. So the first murder took place on

635
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 4: June 5th, 1945. 43-year-old Josephine Ross is found dead in

636
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,810
Speaker 4: her apartment by her daughter.

637
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,250
Speaker 3: Her apartment's close to Wrigley Field in Chicago, obviously.

638
00:27:29,930 --> 00:27:33,650
Speaker 4: Josephine had been repeatedly stabbed and then her body had

639
00:27:33,690 --> 00:27:36,629
Speaker 4: been washed by the killer and all her wounds, this

640
00:27:36,650 --> 00:27:39,270
Speaker 4: is fucking weird, had been covered with tape.

641
00:27:39,890 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 2: No.

642
00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:42,100
Speaker 4: So each of her stab wounds, so if someone was like,

643
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 4: oh fuck, washes her, like that sounds like some serial

644
00:27:44,940 --> 00:27:45,740
Speaker 4: killer shit, right?

645
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:46,260
Speaker 2: Yes.

646
00:27:46,340 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 4: Washes her, covers each wound with tape and then places

647
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,870
Speaker 4: her back into bed. Um, her head had also been

648
00:27:52,950 --> 00:27:55,750
Speaker 4: wrapped with one of her skirts, almost like can't look

649
00:27:55,770 --> 00:27:57,570
Speaker 4: at your face time. But this is a time when

650
00:27:57,590 --> 00:28:00,790
Speaker 4: they didn't have, you know, criminal profiling or like serial

651
00:28:00,830 --> 00:28:01,870
Speaker 4: killer wasn't even a term yet.

652
00:28:02,170 --> 00:28:02,370
Speaker 2: Right.

653
00:28:03,010 --> 00:28:06,510
Speaker 4: Um, so she had been washed, but the investigator still

654
00:28:06,550 --> 00:28:10,870
Speaker 4: found a dark like hair clutched in her hand. Like

655
00:28:10,910 --> 00:28:13,170
Speaker 4: she had ripped his fucking hair out of his head

656
00:28:13,330 --> 00:28:16,230
Speaker 4: as he attacked her. The blood spattered apartment, it had

657
00:28:16,270 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 4: been ransacked. Um, but they, nothing was missing. And police

658
00:28:21,100 --> 00:28:24,460
Speaker 4: found no fingerprints and no obvious motive. And they assumed

659
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,060
Speaker 4: that she had surprised an intruder, but nothing had been stolen.

660
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,219
Speaker 3: So I don't know about that.

661
00:28:29,340 --> 00:28:33,050
Speaker 4: Josephine's murder at the time didn't even make front page,

662
00:28:33,070 --> 00:28:35,790
Speaker 4: the front page news. And at the time, there were

663
00:28:35,850 --> 00:28:39,570
Speaker 4: five big Chicago papers led by the Chicago Tribune. And

664
00:28:39,610 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 4: they all competed for circulation, especially post-war when less shit

665
00:28:42,940 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 4: was going on.

666
00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:46,460
Speaker 3: But it didn't even make the front page. About six

667
00:28:46,510 --> 00:28:47,350
Speaker 3: months later on December.

668
00:28:47,370 --> 00:28:48,650
Speaker 2: Crazy. I know, right?

669
00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:51,990
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's super crazy. Also, just the detail alone of

670
00:28:52,030 --> 00:28:52,410
Speaker 3: the tape.

671
00:28:52,930 --> 00:28:53,430
Speaker 5: The tape.

672
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:56,110
Speaker 2: If that was in the newspaper, a million people would

673
00:28:56,350 --> 00:28:58,950
Speaker 2: go crazy about that. Nope. Nuts.

674
00:28:59,090 --> 00:29:03,490
Speaker 4: About six months later on December 10th, 1945, a 32-year-old woman,

675
00:29:03,570 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 4: she's a stenographer and she's a former Navy wave, forgot

676
00:29:07,740 --> 00:29:11,219
Speaker 4: to look that up, who had served during World War II.

677
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 4: Her name is Frances Brown. She's found slumped.

678
00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:15,239
Speaker 3: In her bathtub... in.

679
00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 4: Her apartment at the Pine Grove Hotel in Chicago. She

680
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,290
Speaker 4: had been shot in the head, and this is horrible,

681
00:29:22,380 --> 00:29:26,790
Speaker 4: a bread knife had been driven sideways through her neck

682
00:29:26,990 --> 00:29:28,550
Speaker 4: with such force that the blade.

683
00:29:28,350 --> 00:29:29,810
Speaker 3: Had emerged on the other side.

684
00:29:29,930 --> 00:29:31,130
Speaker 2: Whoa. I know.

685
00:29:33,410 --> 00:29:35,950
Speaker 4: She was nude, and just like Josephine, she had been

686
00:29:36,030 --> 00:29:38,790
Speaker 4: washed after being murdered, but he left her at the

687
00:29:38,850 --> 00:29:42,370
Speaker 4: side of the bathtub for some reason. And her head

688
00:29:42,410 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 4: was wrapped in towels. So it was like kind of

689
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 4: a similar thing. And again, the apartment had been clear,

690
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,300
Speaker 4: had been wiped clean of fingerprints. But this time someone

691
00:29:53,780 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 4: had left a message on the wall of the apartment

692
00:29:57,620 --> 00:30:01,770
Speaker 4: written in lipstick. And it said in like crazy person writing,

693
00:30:01,790 --> 00:30:07,050
Speaker 4: it said, for heaven's sake, catch me before I kill more.

694
00:30:07,210 --> 00:30:08,550
Speaker 4: I cannot control myself.

695
00:30:08,570 --> 00:30:09,490
Speaker 3: Do you want to see the photo?

696
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:10,070
Speaker 2: Yes, please.

697
00:30:10,150 --> 00:30:10,450
Speaker 4: Okay.

698
00:30:10,490 --> 00:30:11,030
Speaker 2: Here you go.

699
00:30:11,050 --> 00:30:12,790
Speaker 3: We'll put it up on our Instagram.

700
00:30:12,850 --> 00:30:18,210
Speaker 2: I love when any story parallels the movie Seven. Oh, yeah.

701
00:30:18,260 --> 00:30:21,910
Speaker 4: It's exactly like that. I didn't even think about that.

702
00:30:21,990 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 3: Okay. It's like written like a crazy person.

703
00:30:25,100 --> 00:30:25,420
Speaker 2: Okay.

704
00:30:26,220 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 3: And we'll put it up on Twitter and.

705
00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 5: All the places.

706
00:30:28,940 --> 00:30:31,340
Speaker 2: You know why? Can I just say? Yeah.

707
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 3: As a handwriting analyst. Expert, yeah.

708
00:30:34,260 --> 00:30:38,620
Speaker 2: It's combining capital letters, lowercase letters, and cursive.

709
00:30:38,820 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 3: Ooh, the cursive part's creepy.

710
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: Cursive L's in the middle of like a regular block letter.

711
00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:49,860
Speaker 2: yeah everything about this says i don't know what the

712
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,620
Speaker 2: fuck is going on from second to second right right

713
00:30:52,860 --> 00:30:54,620
Speaker 2: or am i trying to make it look like i

714
00:30:54,660 --> 00:30:57,060
Speaker 2: don't know what i'm doing from second to second i

715
00:30:57,100 --> 00:30:59,860
Speaker 2: guess that's true but it's very effective it is i

716
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,380
Speaker 2: don't like a loose curse of l is very unnerving

717
00:31:03,420 --> 00:31:04,150
Speaker 2: and is it some of the.

718
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,030
Speaker 4: Letters like fucking toys r us style like backward and

719
00:31:07,070 --> 00:31:07,770
Speaker 4: forward too.

720
00:31:10,010 --> 00:31:10,710
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

721
00:31:11,530 --> 00:31:18,940
Speaker 2: RRS. Like corn style backwards to upset you? Corn, yes.

722
00:31:19,020 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: For heaven's sake. Yeah. Read it.

723
00:31:20,940 --> 00:31:21,580
Speaker 3: Because it's like.

724
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 2: For heaven's sake, curly QC, catch me. So the C

725
00:31:26,820 --> 00:31:28,940
Speaker 2: is like a C. It's basically a spiral. It almost

726
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: looks like a lowercase cursive E.

727
00:31:31,110 --> 00:31:32,250
Speaker 3: Yes, that's exactly right.

728
00:31:32,350 --> 00:31:32,870
Speaker 2: Catch me.

729
00:31:32,890 --> 00:31:38,370
Speaker 3: B for capital B, capital F, everything else lowercase. I kill...

730
00:31:39,230 --> 00:31:41,230
Speaker 3: Kill as in unconnected cursive.

731
00:31:41,370 --> 00:31:41,610
Speaker 1: Yeah.

732
00:31:41,970 --> 00:31:44,260
Speaker 3: It's all crazy. It's written in fucking lipstick.

733
00:31:45,380 --> 00:31:49,730
Speaker 4: And then the press then goes fucking crazy for it.

734
00:31:49,740 --> 00:31:51,300
Speaker 2: Also, no punctuation.

735
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,130
Speaker 4: And the other thing about this is that because at

736
00:31:54,590 --> 00:31:55,370
Speaker 4: the time.

737
00:31:56,170 --> 00:31:57,970
Speaker 3: Women used the term for heaven's sake.

738
00:31:58,590 --> 00:31:58,950
Speaker 2: A lot.

739
00:31:59,150 --> 00:32:01,460
Speaker 4: They thought it might be a woman who had done this.

740
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 4: Which everyone was like, what are you fucking talking about?

741
00:32:04,740 --> 00:32:06,300
Speaker 2: That's some poor theorizing.

742
00:32:06,420 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 3: Everyone now is like, what the fuck? Okay.

743
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,060
Speaker 4: So this note earned the killer the name the Lipstick

744
00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 4: Killer by the media, of course, who are now obsessed

745
00:32:14,740 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 4: with it because they have a catchy name and two

746
00:32:16,510 --> 00:32:18,850
Speaker 4: murders that are supposedly linked.

747
00:32:20,850 --> 00:32:22,250
Speaker 2: Four weeks later. All right.

748
00:32:22,330 --> 00:32:24,370
Speaker 3: So they're going crazy. They're like, who the fuck is

749
00:32:24,390 --> 00:32:24,810
Speaker 3: this killer?

750
00:32:24,850 --> 00:32:25,190
Speaker 5: We don't know.

751
00:32:26,230 --> 00:32:28,330
Speaker 4: And at the time, it was kind of an innocent story.

752
00:32:29,430 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 4: And so people are doing the whole locking their doors

753
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,900
Speaker 4: for the first time thing. Then four weeks later, at

754
00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:43,460
Speaker 4: about 7.30 in the morning of January 7th, 1946... In

755
00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:46,820
Speaker 4: a wealthy section in the north side of Chicago called Edgewater,

756
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 4: it was discovered that six-year-old Suzanne Dagnon was missing from

757
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:52,740
Speaker 4: her first floor bedroom.

758
00:32:52,940 --> 00:32:53,220
Speaker 5: Whoa.

759
00:32:53,420 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 3: Did you say six-year-old?

760
00:32:54,740 --> 00:33:00,310
Speaker 4: She's this little fucking sweet little blonde baby girl, young thing,

761
00:33:02,010 --> 00:33:05,570
Speaker 4: is missing. Her window is open and a ladder is

762
00:33:05,610 --> 00:33:08,750
Speaker 4: placed underneath it outside. So like someone had climbed in

763
00:33:09,250 --> 00:33:13,540
Speaker 4: and taken her. When they search her room, police find

764
00:33:13,630 --> 00:33:18,140
Speaker 4: a crumpled note. And this is another fucking psychotically written thing.

765
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 4: I have a photo for you. The note says tells

766
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 4: the family to prepare to twenty thousand dollars ransom not

767
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,550
Speaker 4: to notify the police or FBI and to wait for

768
00:33:28,610 --> 00:33:30,590
Speaker 4: a word from the kidnapper. But they didn't find it

769
00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:34,270
Speaker 4: until after. So look at that fucking psychotic note.

770
00:33:34,430 --> 00:33:34,930
Speaker 2: Oh, no.

771
00:33:35,050 --> 00:33:36,130
Speaker 3: It's similarly written.

772
00:33:36,490 --> 00:33:43,410
Speaker 2: Right. Right. Yes, it's got the curly Q, E's, but also.

773
00:33:43,970 --> 00:33:45,850
Speaker 3: But the E's are curly. I mean, it's an E,

774
00:33:45,890 --> 00:33:46,370
Speaker 3: not a C.

775
00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:49,340
Speaker 4: I looked at them and I tried so hard to

776
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:51,330
Speaker 4: tell if they were connected or not.

777
00:33:51,340 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: Oh, that police C is not the same. Yeah, I

778
00:33:53,740 --> 00:33:57,260
Speaker 2: don't think it's the same. But it's still capitals and lowercase.

779
00:33:57,300 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 2: It is. It's still a fucking crazy note. But not

780
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,220
Speaker 2: like bills. The L's and bills are not cursive. They're

781
00:34:04,260 --> 00:34:04,900
Speaker 2: not blending.

782
00:34:04,940 --> 00:34:07,900
Speaker 4: To me, that note seems like it was written by

783
00:34:08,010 --> 00:34:12,130
Speaker 4: someone uneducated. And the lipstick killer one looks like it

784
00:34:12,180 --> 00:34:17,069
Speaker 4: was someone trying to seem crazy. So that's just my bullshit. Yeah,

785
00:34:17,090 --> 00:34:23,090
Speaker 4: this looks like someone who who doesn't. Who doesn't write well. Yes.

786
00:34:23,210 --> 00:34:26,550
Speaker 2: And it doesn't look planned because it's so sloppy.

787
00:34:26,590 --> 00:34:28,549
Speaker 3: It's really sloppy. It looks like it was hard to write.

788
00:34:28,570 --> 00:34:28,850
Speaker 5: Right.

789
00:34:28,890 --> 00:34:31,629
Speaker 3: And words are misspelled, too, which the other one isn't.

790
00:34:31,770 --> 00:34:32,009
Speaker 5: Okay.

791
00:34:32,650 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 4: So they find that note. And then on the reverse

792
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,500
Speaker 4: side is written, burn this for her safety.

793
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:40,299
Speaker 3: Right.

794
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: Okay.

795
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,580
Speaker 4: So by the evening of her disappearance, though, they received

796
00:34:44,620 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 4: some hang-up calls about ransom, but they never... They never

797
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 4: like go through and they never give details. And by

798
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,500
Speaker 4: that evening, police receive an anonymous phone call suggesting the

799
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 4: police look in the sewers near the Degnan residence.

800
00:34:59,420 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 3: Okay, this gets fucked up.

801
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:00,700
Speaker 1: Ready?

802
00:35:00,940 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: Yes.

803
00:35:02,219 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 4: Only a block away from the Degnan home, they find

804
00:35:06,340 --> 00:35:10,129
Speaker 4: the severed head of little Suzanne Degnan in a storm

805
00:35:10,170 --> 00:35:10,930
Speaker 4: drain sewer.

806
00:35:11,070 --> 00:35:11,930
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ.

807
00:35:12,010 --> 00:35:12,270
Speaker 2: I know.

808
00:35:12,330 --> 00:35:16,010
Speaker 3: This is 1946. Like shit like this does not happen.

809
00:35:16,030 --> 00:35:16,950
Speaker 3: This is Chicago?

810
00:35:16,969 --> 00:35:17,049
Speaker 5: Yeah.

811
00:35:17,070 --> 00:35:17,250
Speaker 2: Yeah.

812
00:35:18,670 --> 00:35:24,310
Speaker 4: Wow yeah it's so awful then they find suzanne's right

813
00:35:24,350 --> 00:35:28,700
Speaker 4: leg in a catch basin they find her torso in

814
00:35:28,739 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 4: another storm drain and her left leg in another drain

815
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,219
Speaker 4: each piece is found further and further away from the

816
00:35:36,260 --> 00:35:38,489
Speaker 4: home like the person was just hiding them along the

817
00:35:38,510 --> 00:35:43,009
Speaker 4: fucking way and all the drains um had cast iron

818
00:35:43,050 --> 00:35:45,430
Speaker 4: manhole covers that weighed at least 110 pounds each whoa yeah.

819
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: Is that heavy?

820
00:35:48,660 --> 00:35:49,730
Speaker 3: That's heavy, right?

821
00:35:49,730 --> 00:35:50,810
Speaker 2: 110 pounds. Yeah. Yeah.

822
00:35:50,950 --> 00:35:52,930
Speaker 3: I mean, it's like picking up a fifth grader.

823
00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: Okay. I can bench like, you know, you could pinch

824
00:35:57,620 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: like a second grader. Yeah. Yeah.

825
00:35:59,900 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 3: Um, that's awful. I'm sorry.

826
00:36:01,660 --> 00:36:05,490
Speaker 4: This is this, the whole fucking city goes crazy. This

827
00:36:05,570 --> 00:36:07,989
Speaker 4: is not, this has not happened. Little girls like this,

828
00:36:08,050 --> 00:36:09,670
Speaker 4: like adults, people can deal with it.

829
00:36:09,690 --> 00:36:10,850
Speaker 3: It's not even front page news.

830
00:36:11,310 --> 00:36:14,470
Speaker 2: Well, also this is the second you said this part,

831
00:36:15,130 --> 00:36:18,339
Speaker 2: I think it, I'm positive I've read this, but when

832
00:36:18,380 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 2: it comes to something like when the details are that

833
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 2: bad and gory, it's hard for us to do those

834
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,629
Speaker 2: at live shows because It's just so awful.

835
00:36:25,670 --> 00:36:27,130
Speaker 4: That's why I was like, I bet we didn't do

836
00:36:27,150 --> 00:36:29,390
Speaker 4: this because I would remember us talking about this.

837
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,339
Speaker 2: Yeah. Because it's so quiet and sad and horrifying.

838
00:36:34,180 --> 00:36:34,339
Speaker 5: Yeah.

839
00:36:34,380 --> 00:36:35,660
Speaker 3: And it just like, you're right.

840
00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: It was that time where because things were so, things

841
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,660
Speaker 2: were so, I mean, I feel like we are experiencing

842
00:36:41,700 --> 00:36:45,049
Speaker 2: this societally, not to get too broad about it, but

843
00:36:45,969 --> 00:36:47,370
Speaker 2: these days we all know everything.

844
00:36:47,450 --> 00:36:48,290
Speaker 3: We're desensitized.

845
00:36:48,390 --> 00:36:48,650
Speaker 4: Yeah.

846
00:36:48,850 --> 00:36:50,009
Speaker 3: And we, and we're in it.

847
00:36:50,070 --> 00:36:51,830
Speaker 2: We're in the mix, which I think is part of

848
00:36:51,870 --> 00:36:53,770
Speaker 2: the reason this kind of true crime thing is like,

849
00:36:54,140 --> 00:36:57,020
Speaker 2: kicking up in the last 10 years so strongly is

850
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,820
Speaker 2: because it's like basically going, I'm not going to pretend anymore.

851
00:36:59,860 --> 00:37:01,870
Speaker 2: This is real and it's happening and I want to

852
00:37:01,910 --> 00:37:04,649
Speaker 2: pay attention to it. But back then this was like the,

853
00:37:05,010 --> 00:37:07,290
Speaker 2: the war is over, buy a car, buy a house,

854
00:37:07,370 --> 00:37:09,750
Speaker 2: get a wife, have two kids, be white.

855
00:37:09,950 --> 00:37:11,830
Speaker 3: You can be whatever you want if you're white.

856
00:37:12,350 --> 00:37:15,500
Speaker 2: And yeah, so it's that, and everybody's kind of locked

857
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,130
Speaker 2: and focused on that and not letting go of it.

858
00:37:18,219 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 3: So this is a real aberration.

859
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 4: And it's also the time, and I think you can't

860
00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 4: tell this story without making it, with making that a

861
00:37:26,430 --> 00:37:28,969
Speaker 4: big part of it, what you just said. And also that,

862
00:37:29,030 --> 00:37:30,930
Speaker 4: you know, it was, of course, the time, even in

863
00:37:30,989 --> 00:37:34,870
Speaker 4: fucking Chicago, where children just walked around and were out

864
00:37:34,910 --> 00:37:37,710
Speaker 4: all night, or out all day, did whatever they wanted.

865
00:37:37,750 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 2: There was... you know partying and throwing dice and alleys

866
00:37:41,460 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 2: right yeah but there was there was a lack of

867
00:37:44,420 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 2: supervision because there wasn't a need for supervision because it

868
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,700
Speaker 2: was a you know a safer world supposedly supposedly a

869
00:37:51,739 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: safer world and it was though but.

870
00:37:54,140 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 4: You know then something like this happens and it just

871
00:37:56,820 --> 00:37:59,180
Speaker 4: changes the fucking landscape.

872
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,950
Speaker 2: And but well yeah people can't tell themselves that lie

873
00:38:00,989 --> 00:38:03,970
Speaker 2: anymore essentially is what it is right and worst possible

874
00:38:04,170 --> 00:38:04,750
Speaker 2: way to do.

875
00:38:04,670 --> 00:38:09,210
Speaker 4: It exactly um So they they search an apartment building

876
00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 4: near the location where Suzanne's head was found and they uncover.

877
00:38:13,739 --> 00:38:16,140
Speaker 3: And somehow this is fucking crazy that they found this

878
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 3: to me. But whatever. A basement laundry room.

879
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,259
Speaker 4: And in there are tubs because it was like not

880
00:38:23,380 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 4: I was like, well, what about why are there four

881
00:38:24,940 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 4: tubs in there?

882
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, no, they didn't have washing machines.

883
00:38:27,780 --> 00:38:29,930
Speaker 4: It was a tub is the laundry room.

884
00:38:29,989 --> 00:38:30,450
Speaker 2: Yeah.

885
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:30,910
Speaker 5: Oh, God.

886
00:38:31,790 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 4: They find four tubs. And in the drains, they find blood.

887
00:38:38,780 --> 00:38:39,900
Speaker 3: Oh, no.

888
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,259
Speaker 4: So they think that Suzanne had been dismembered there. The

889
00:38:44,300 --> 00:38:46,439
Speaker 4: press began to refer to this as the murder room.

890
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,100
Speaker 4: And that day, Chicago Mayor Edward Kelly also receives a note.

891
00:38:52,540 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 4: And it says, this is to tell you how sorry

892
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 4: I am not to not.

893
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 2: Get old Susan.

894
00:38:59,140 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 4: Dignan instead of his girl so not to kill the

895
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 4: dad instead of suzanne like i'd rather kill the dad

896
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,589
Speaker 4: oh roosevelt and the opa made their own laws why

897
00:39:09,630 --> 00:39:12,450
Speaker 4: shouldn't i and a lot more so this is what

898
00:39:12,489 --> 00:39:15,630
Speaker 4: this means at the time chicago was home to the

899
00:39:15,670 --> 00:39:20,370
Speaker 4: largest stockyards in the nation of meat animals and shit

900
00:39:20,370 --> 00:39:21,210
Speaker 4: you know Yep.

901
00:39:21,210 --> 00:39:24,250
Speaker 3: Meatpacking. Stockyards is all about steer.

902
00:39:24,250 --> 00:39:25,090
Speaker 2: There you go.

903
00:39:25,090 --> 00:39:25,350
Speaker 1: Yep.

904
00:39:25,350 --> 00:39:26,860
Speaker 3: I'm from Orange County.

905
00:39:26,860 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 5: Okay.

906
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:27,980
Speaker 2: Yeah.

907
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 4: There was a nationwide meatpacker strike going on at the time.

908
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,180
Speaker 4: And the Office of Price Administration, so the OPA, was

909
00:39:36,460 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 4: their enemy.

910
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,860
Speaker 3: That's who they were fucking striking against.

911
00:39:41,180 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 4: Suzanne Dignan's father was a senior executive with the Wartime

912
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,489
Speaker 4: Meat Regulation Board and had just recently.

913
00:39:47,989 --> 00:39:49,950
Speaker 2: And so he was part of the OPA. Yeah.

914
00:39:50,610 --> 00:39:54,350
Speaker 4: And just recently, another OPA executive had received threats against

915
00:39:54,469 --> 00:39:55,150
Speaker 4: his children.

916
00:39:55,170 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 2: Fuck. Yeah.

917
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 4: Also, a man involved with the black market with black

918
00:40:00,780 --> 00:40:03,109
Speaker 4: market meat, which sounds just horrifying.

919
00:40:03,180 --> 00:40:05,629
Speaker 3: I mean, no, but if you marinate it just right.

920
00:40:06,590 --> 00:40:08,670
Speaker 4: You can barely taste the chronic. That's good for your intestines.

921
00:40:08,690 --> 00:40:11,410
Speaker 4: You want to really put some meat on your chest. Old,

922
00:40:11,530 --> 00:40:13,089
Speaker 4: rotten meat that's been sitting out.

923
00:40:13,150 --> 00:40:13,310
Speaker 5: Yeah.

924
00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:17,009
Speaker 4: So he, a man involved with black market meat, so

925
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:19,870
Speaker 4: basically a fucking, what's it, line crosser, what do they

926
00:40:19,890 --> 00:40:20,210
Speaker 4: call them?

927
00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:21,210
Speaker 2: Strike breaker?

928
00:40:21,770 --> 00:40:22,470
Speaker 5: Line crosser? Scab.

929
00:40:22,810 --> 00:40:23,150
Speaker 1: Scab.

930
00:40:23,950 --> 00:40:26,820
Speaker 3: Had recently been murdered by decapitation.

931
00:40:27,580 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 2: Oh, no. Yeah.

932
00:40:28,420 --> 00:40:31,700
Speaker 3: So police consider the possibility that Suzanne's killer was a

933
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 3: meat packer, obviously.

934
00:40:32,820 --> 00:40:32,900
Speaker 5: Yeah.

935
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:34,419
Speaker 3: Seems to make sense.

936
00:40:34,739 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 2: I mean, sure.

937
00:40:35,260 --> 00:40:37,210
Speaker 3: About the dismemberment, the.

938
00:40:37,190 --> 00:40:41,390
Speaker 4: Coroner's expert said, quote, not even the average doctor could

939
00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:45,180
Speaker 4: be as skillful with the dismemberment, you know, like those.

940
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,790
Speaker 4: There weren't any hacking marks, that sort of thing. And

941
00:40:47,830 --> 00:40:49,830
Speaker 4: then he said it had to be a meat cutter.

942
00:40:50,150 --> 00:40:52,830
Speaker 4: Like everyone in town and in this time of period

943
00:40:52,870 --> 00:40:56,490
Speaker 4: is like stirring some shit up without facts. Like everyone's

944
00:40:56,530 --> 00:40:58,860
Speaker 4: fucking doing it, including especially the media.

945
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:03,140
Speaker 2: Well, again, I feel like the time that existed before

946
00:41:03,180 --> 00:41:07,180
Speaker 2: the Internet existed, when you could immediately fact check. It

947
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,100
Speaker 2: was just a glorious time for us liars where you

948
00:41:10,140 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 2: could just kind of say whatever.

949
00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 3: No one could check it.

950
00:41:13,540 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 2: And if you were a person that was like talking

951
00:41:15,460 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 2: to the media, so you're the mayor, you're somebody high

952
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,219
Speaker 2: in power, nobody would check it. You, you had, there

953
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: was so much good faith.

954
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 4: And the media and the fucking, this is a time

955
00:41:24,060 --> 00:41:27,569
Speaker 4: when the media and. the police were fucking besties. So

956
00:41:27,610 --> 00:41:29,650
Speaker 4: the cops would want to like get some shit out

957
00:41:29,710 --> 00:41:31,489
Speaker 4: to be like, we need to catch this person. Here's

958
00:41:31,530 --> 00:41:34,009
Speaker 4: some information that could also not be true.

959
00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:34,819
Speaker 2: Right.

960
00:41:34,980 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 4: And it would be printed. So it was just a

961
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,770
Speaker 4: lot of bullshit. So saying that, whatever.

962
00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:45,110
Speaker 2: Um, also the perfect setup for like, Oh, it's a

963
00:41:45,130 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 2: meat packer. See, they're the bad guys. Oh, Oh, you

964
00:41:48,739 --> 00:41:51,299
Speaker 2: mean the working class guy, the people that are, that

965
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:52,420
Speaker 2: don't have a lot of money.

966
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,469
Speaker 4: They're striking so that they could not work fucking seven hour,

967
00:41:55,530 --> 00:41:56,370
Speaker 4: seven hour days.

968
00:41:57,230 --> 00:41:59,790
Speaker 2: Nope. Seven days a week. Yeah. You know?

969
00:42:00,070 --> 00:42:00,310
Speaker 4: Yes.

970
00:42:00,510 --> 00:42:01,130
Speaker 3: Isn't that what they did?

971
00:42:01,290 --> 00:42:01,430
Speaker 5: Okay.

972
00:42:02,710 --> 00:42:03,290
Speaker 2: So, all right.

973
00:42:03,350 --> 00:42:06,180
Speaker 4: So then with no direct evidence, and this is a

974
00:42:06,219 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 4: time before Miranda.

975
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:08,939
Speaker 3: Rights existed too.

976
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,980
Speaker 2: Really? Wow. Yeah. They're that recent? Yeah, I think so. Shit. Okay.

977
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 3: We should find out about that.

978
00:42:13,860 --> 00:42:14,060
Speaker 2: Yeah.

979
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 3: Okay.

980
00:42:14,940 --> 00:42:15,180
Speaker 2: Save it.

981
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:20,469
Speaker 3: Save it. With no direct evidence, police were like, you

982
00:42:20,510 --> 00:42:20,890
Speaker 3: know what?

983
00:42:21,150 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 4: Okay, the janitor at the building where Suzanne lived, let's

984
00:42:25,540 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 4: fucking get his wife to pressure him into confessing. He's

985
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 4: a 65-year-old man named Hector Verbig.

986
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 2: Verberg.

987
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:34,240
Speaker 5: Verberg.

988
00:42:35,020 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 4: She's like, implicate your husband. And she's like, fuck no.

989
00:42:37,660 --> 00:42:38,379
Speaker 4: What are you talking about?

990
00:42:39,020 --> 00:42:42,410
Speaker 2: Still, the police told the press that this is the man.

991
00:42:43,090 --> 00:42:46,170
Speaker 4: Like the police kept or the press kept being like,

992
00:42:46,210 --> 00:42:46,810
Speaker 4: we got our guy.

993
00:42:46,850 --> 00:42:47,469
Speaker 3: We got our guy.

994
00:42:48,570 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 4: He's held for 48 hours of questioning, during which time

995
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 4: he's beaten severely and had to spend 10 days in

996
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:55,700
Speaker 4: the hospital afterwards.

997
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:56,340
Speaker 2: Oh, shit.

998
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:58,940
Speaker 4: He said that anymore and he would have confessed to anything.

999
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 4: So it's later determined that he is actually a Belgian immigrant,

1000
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 4: so he couldn't even write English well enough to have

1001
00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:09,870
Speaker 4: written the ransom note. He sues the Chicago Police Department for.

1002
00:43:09,510 --> 00:43:10,170
Speaker 5: $ 15, 000 at that.

1003
00:43:10,070 --> 00:43:12,270
Speaker 3: Time, $ 15, 000, and he's awarded $ 20, 000.

1004
00:43:12,150 --> 00:43:15,250
Speaker 2: Oh, shit. They're like, no, no, no, you're.

1005
00:43:15,110 --> 00:43:17,170
Speaker 3: Going to get even more. The people have spoken.

1006
00:43:17,230 --> 00:43:20,070
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is how poorly this investigation is going.

1007
00:43:20,830 --> 00:43:24,150
Speaker 4: A month after Suzanne's body parts had been found and

1008
00:43:24,290 --> 00:43:27,630
Speaker 4: after she had been buried... Then her arms are found

1009
00:43:28,190 --> 00:43:31,390
Speaker 4: by sewer workers. So her body is buried without her arms.

1010
00:43:31,670 --> 00:43:33,220
Speaker 4: It's not a month until they find them.

1011
00:43:33,390 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 2: Horrible.

1012
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 3: How horrible is that?

1013
00:43:35,739 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 4: By April, 370 suspects had been questioned and cleared, and

1014
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 4: the press is starting to criticize the police's ability to

1015
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 4: catch Suzanne's killer.

1016
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 3: They're turning on each other.

1017
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: Right.

1018
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,029
Speaker 3: And they're like, they've got the heat on them.

1019
00:43:48,730 --> 00:43:52,090
Speaker 4: Investigators say that they had found two partial fingerprints on

1020
00:43:52,130 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 4: the ransom note, And one smudged fingerprint on the doorknob

1021
00:43:57,260 --> 00:44:01,819
Speaker 4: at the second crime scene. And that experts matched the

1022
00:44:01,860 --> 00:44:06,830
Speaker 4: handwriting and fingerprint. They linked everything together so that the

1023
00:44:06,950 --> 00:44:11,430
Speaker 4: murders of the two women who are so different in

1024
00:44:11,770 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 4: every way to the murder, the kidnapping and murder of

1025
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 4: Suzanne are linked.

1026
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 3: They say that they're all linked.

1027
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1028
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 5: Which.

1029
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 3: It seems impossible to me.

1030
00:44:20,940 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 2: It's almost just like these are the three most upsetting

1031
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,259
Speaker 2: things that have happened in the city recently. Right. We

1032
00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:27,620
Speaker 2: have a monster. Yeah. This sells papers.

1033
00:44:27,820 --> 00:44:29,300
Speaker 3: We're going to take care of everything at once.

1034
00:44:29,390 --> 00:44:29,609
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1035
00:44:29,860 --> 00:44:31,410
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a nice idea.

1036
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:31,650
Speaker 2: Right.

1037
00:44:31,730 --> 00:44:34,690
Speaker 4: And it's like it's weird evidence. Even if there were

1038
00:44:34,730 --> 00:44:37,450
Speaker 4: like the experts say that the handwriting matches, it's like

1039
00:44:37,489 --> 00:44:38,810
Speaker 4: that's clearly bunk science.

1040
00:44:38,830 --> 00:44:43,730
Speaker 3: We fucking know that now. And that's not that's circumstantial evidence.

1041
00:44:43,790 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 3: It's not true evidence. Anyways, in late June.

1042
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:52,419
Speaker 4: Of 1946 police questioned this fucking creepy ass dude named

1043
00:44:52,540 --> 00:44:53,780
Speaker 4: Richard Russell Thomas.

1044
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 3: He was a nurse. Um, at the time of the

1045
00:44:57,219 --> 00:44:58,779
Speaker 3: investment judgment on male nurses.

1046
00:44:58,840 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 5: No, no, no, no, no, no.

1047
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,540
Speaker 4: But he has medical knowledge. So he could, Ooh, he

1048
00:45:03,580 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 4: could dismember.

1049
00:45:04,340 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1050
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 3: At the time of the, here's judgment time.

1051
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 4: At the time of the investigation, he's in prison in

1052
00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 4: Phoenix for molesting one of his own daughters.

1053
00:45:12,340 --> 00:45:14,180
Speaker 2: So judgment. So full judgment.

1054
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,810
Speaker 4: Um, um, But he was in Chicago at the time

1055
00:45:18,050 --> 00:45:23,129
Speaker 4: of Suzanne's murder. And a handwriting expert, again, says there's

1056
00:45:23,170 --> 00:45:27,549
Speaker 4: great similarities between Thomas's handwriting and the ransom note. And

1057
00:45:27,590 --> 00:45:31,500
Speaker 4: that many of the phrases that was used in the

1058
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,340
Speaker 4: ransom note, this dude, Richard Thomas, had used But previously

1059
00:45:36,460 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 4: in an extortion note years earlier in an attempted kidnapping.

1060
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 5: Oh.

1061
00:45:40,739 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 4: So he fucking had tried to do it before and

1062
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,180
Speaker 4: has similar phrases in writing.

1063
00:45:45,260 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 2: He pulled down his crime file.

1064
00:45:46,940 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 5: Copy paste.

1065
00:45:47,260 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 2: And he was like, what's my other hand copy hand paste?

1066
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:51,140
Speaker 1: Right.

1067
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,910
Speaker 4: He pulls out his, um, his like pre computer, uh,

1068
00:45:56,989 --> 00:46:00,090
Speaker 4: what's it? Font murderer, serial killer font.

1069
00:46:00,130 --> 00:46:04,689
Speaker 3: That's right. Oh, and he had medical training as a nurse.

1070
00:46:05,670 --> 00:46:06,650
Speaker 5: Blah, blah, blah. Okay.

1071
00:46:07,430 --> 00:46:10,489
Speaker 4: So, and then during questioning by Chicago police, he totally

1072
00:46:10,530 --> 00:46:12,140
Speaker 4: admits to killing Suzanne.

1073
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 2: Oh.

1074
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,140
Speaker 3: But he's, I don't know. I don't know about this guy. Anyways. Well,

1075
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:16,959
Speaker 3: because we do know.

1076
00:46:16,860 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: That the other guy got beaten for hours and was

1077
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:21,340
Speaker 2: in the hospital.

1078
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,370
Speaker 3: So it could have been just one of those situations.

1079
00:46:23,450 --> 00:46:23,730
Speaker 2: Right.

1080
00:46:23,770 --> 00:46:27,270
Speaker 4: Grain assault. So they think they have their guy. That

1081
00:46:27,350 --> 00:46:31,250
Speaker 4: is until authorities get a new suspect reported to the

1082
00:46:31,270 --> 00:46:33,969
Speaker 4: paper the same day that this Thomas dude is, uh,

1083
00:46:35,260 --> 00:46:39,779
Speaker 4: is happening they find out that a college student was

1084
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,819
Speaker 4: caught fleeing from the scene of a burglary and that

1085
00:46:42,860 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 4: when cornered this guy had pulled a gun on police

1086
00:46:46,980 --> 00:46:50,240
Speaker 4: oh and at this time this dude this thomas dude

1087
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 4: had recanted his confession and police let him go so

1088
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 4: they're like this other guy must be our guy so

1089
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 4: let's talk about this guy 17 year old william herons

1090
00:46:59,380 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 4: hirens 17 yes 17. William Hirons is born. He was

1091
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 4: born in November of 1928, grew up in Lincolnwood, which

1092
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,900
Speaker 4: is a suburb of Chicago. He's the son of poor

1093
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 4: immigrants from Luxembourg. And his parents argued constantly as when

1094
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 4: he was a kid, which made him just leave the

1095
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,940
Speaker 4: fucking house and wander around town. And eventually he started

1096
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,609
Speaker 4: committing petty crimes like burglary just for fun. He said

1097
00:47:25,660 --> 00:47:28,489
Speaker 4: just to release tension, he would break into houses and

1098
00:47:28,770 --> 00:47:29,290
Speaker 4: steal shit.

1099
00:47:29,989 --> 00:47:32,730
Speaker 2: To release him. Yeah, it's like, all right, bro. I mean,

1100
00:47:32,770 --> 00:47:35,210
Speaker 2: have you ever heard of baseball or making a friend?

1101
00:47:36,130 --> 00:47:39,450
Speaker 4: By 13 years of age, he's arrested for carrying a

1102
00:47:39,489 --> 00:47:41,590
Speaker 4: loaded gun, which he had stolen from a fucking.

1103
00:47:41,730 --> 00:47:44,270
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ. Yeah, he's on a bad path.

1104
00:47:44,290 --> 00:47:45,940
Speaker 2: That's very Bugsy Malone. It is.

1105
00:47:45,950 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 4: A search of his house, they discover a number of

1106
00:47:50,500 --> 00:47:54,740
Speaker 4: stolen weapons in an old storage shed, along with furs, suits, cameras, radios,

1107
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,060
Speaker 4: and jewelries he had stolen.

1108
00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:00,510
Speaker 3: He admitted to 11 burglaries... And was sent to school

1109
00:48:00,550 --> 00:48:02,580
Speaker 3: for wayward boys for several months. But here's the thing.

1110
00:48:02,820 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 4: He never sold anything. He never stole for money. It

1111
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,299
Speaker 4: was almost just like he was bored and wanted to

1112
00:48:09,340 --> 00:48:11,259
Speaker 4: see what he could get away with and do.

1113
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the thrill of it.

1114
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and he was poor. But he still didn't like

1115
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 4: sell the camera on the street or anything like that.

1116
00:48:17,980 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 4: I think he still stole money, but it didn't seem like...

1117
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 4: That was his intent. So he wasn't a cat burglar.

1118
00:48:23,900 --> 00:48:24,570
Speaker 1: Right.

1119
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,770
Speaker 2: He was like a weird break-in peeping Tom maybe type

1120
00:48:28,810 --> 00:48:29,109
Speaker 2: of guy.

1121
00:48:29,150 --> 00:48:29,390
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1122
00:48:29,410 --> 00:48:31,850
Speaker 3: I don't know about the peeping Tom part, but just like.

1123
00:48:31,870 --> 00:48:34,410
Speaker 2: Well, like a, how about a nosy Nelly? A nosy

1124
00:48:34,450 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 2: Nelly kid who just like, yeah. Who wanted to break

1125
00:48:37,860 --> 00:48:39,900
Speaker 2: some rules and get up into people's business.

1126
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:40,340
Speaker 5: Exactly.

1127
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 4: So he gets released, and then William Hirons is again

1128
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 4: arrested for theft and larceny. This time, though, he's sentenced

1129
00:48:48,180 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 4: to three years at a school operated by Benedictine monks.

1130
00:48:51,300 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 2: Uh-oh.

1131
00:48:51,980 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 4: No, that's what I thought, too. It turns out when

1132
00:48:54,420 --> 00:48:56,700
Speaker 4: he's at this school, he fucking flourishes.

1133
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:56,779
Speaker 2: Oh.

1134
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,380
Speaker 4: And it turns out he's smart as fuck. He's an

1135
00:48:59,420 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 4: exceptional student, excels in all kinds of crazy fucking subjects.

1136
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:04,660
Speaker 3: That I couldn't do.

1137
00:49:05,140 --> 00:49:08,540
Speaker 2: Like what? Latin? Yeah. Electronics? I don't know.

1138
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 3: At the time, I could probably do this.

1139
00:49:09,820 --> 00:49:12,190
Speaker 2: What? 1945.

1140
00:49:12,190 --> 00:49:13,049
Speaker 5: You know.

1141
00:49:13,070 --> 00:49:16,340
Speaker 2: But this wire here and that wire there. Use the phone.

1142
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:23,370
Speaker 2: You're now an electronics major. But he's super fucking smart.

1143
00:49:23,650 --> 00:49:26,510
Speaker 4: His test scores are so high that he gets admitted

1144
00:49:26,530 --> 00:49:30,469
Speaker 4: to the University of Chicago's Experimental School for Gifted Students.

1145
00:49:31,090 --> 00:49:31,290
Speaker 2: Oh.

1146
00:49:31,410 --> 00:49:34,670
Speaker 4: He's enrolled for a Bachelor of Science wanting to become

1147
00:49:34,830 --> 00:49:37,790
Speaker 4: an electronics engineer so he can use the fucking phone.

1148
00:49:37,830 --> 00:49:40,489
Speaker 3: He loves that phone. Calling people all the time.

1149
00:49:40,530 --> 00:49:43,750
Speaker 2: Hello, it's me, Richard. Can you believe this shit?

1150
00:49:43,770 --> 00:49:44,190
Speaker 5: Ahoy hoy.

1151
00:49:49,530 --> 00:49:52,370
Speaker 2: Saying ahoy hoy in a business-like voice is the best.

1152
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:52,710
Speaker 5: Ahoy hoy.

1153
00:49:52,750 --> 00:49:53,350
Speaker 2: Ahoy hoy.

1154
00:49:53,390 --> 00:49:53,890
Speaker 5: I mean it.

1155
00:49:54,739 --> 00:49:54,939
Speaker 1: Right.

1156
00:49:55,980 --> 00:49:59,820
Speaker 2: So he starts in the fall of 1945.

1157
00:49:59,820 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 4: He was 16 years old at this point. And he

1158
00:50:02,180 --> 00:50:03,860
Speaker 4: started this fucking school. It's college.

1159
00:50:03,900 --> 00:50:05,140
Speaker 2: A college? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1160
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 3: Smart guy college.

1161
00:50:05,820 --> 00:50:06,140
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1162
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:07,980
Speaker 2: This is a little man Tate situation.

1163
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:09,220
Speaker 5: Yeah. Okay.

1164
00:50:09,420 --> 00:50:10,900
Speaker 2: Congratulations, William Hirons.

1165
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:11,450
Speaker 3: What happened?

1166
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:11,910
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1167
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 3: Well, here's what happened.

1168
00:50:13,210 --> 00:50:13,430
Speaker 2: Okay.

1169
00:50:13,730 --> 00:50:16,049
Speaker 3: He, of course, couldn't afford any of this shit. So

1170
00:50:16,190 --> 00:50:17,570
Speaker 3: he worked several jobs.

1171
00:50:17,630 --> 00:50:19,529
Speaker 4: But he's also like, I'm going to go back to

1172
00:50:19,570 --> 00:50:21,710
Speaker 4: being a serial burglar because it's fun and I.

1173
00:50:21,710 --> 00:50:22,190
Speaker 3: Can make money.

1174
00:50:22,750 --> 00:50:25,009
Speaker 4: So he keeps doing that. He kind of like lives

1175
00:50:25,050 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 4: his crazy double life. But at school, he's known as

1176
00:50:27,780 --> 00:50:30,620
Speaker 4: like a good dancer. He's handsome and charming. He goes

1177
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,299
Speaker 4: on dates and shit. Like people love are friends with

1178
00:50:33,340 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 4: him and love him. He's pretty cute too. You want

1179
00:50:34,900 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 4: to see a photo of him?

1180
00:50:35,540 --> 00:50:38,750
Speaker 2: See him when he pulls a photo of him. That's

1181
00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:40,690
Speaker 2: what some chick was like. There was like a... It

1182
00:50:41,090 --> 00:50:42,270
Speaker 2: can't be him. Well, it was.

1183
00:50:42,650 --> 00:50:44,810
Speaker 4: dance club so like it wasn't like they'd go dancing

1184
00:50:44,830 --> 00:50:46,569
Speaker 4: it would be like let's all learn how to like

1185
00:50:46,610 --> 00:50:48,770
Speaker 4: do the lindy hop and shit and like and this

1186
00:50:48,790 --> 00:50:50,730
Speaker 4: chick was like everyone wanted to dance with him because

1187
00:50:50,750 --> 00:50:52,250
Speaker 4: he was like charming and a good dancer and a

1188
00:50:52,270 --> 00:50:54,870
Speaker 4: good dancer right which is like it's the perfect right

1189
00:50:55,050 --> 00:50:59,940
Speaker 4: it's not what we say anymore um okay now we're

1190
00:50:59,960 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 4: like oh he rides a motorcycle yeah exactly So the afternoon,

1191
00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:06,739
Speaker 4: all right, so da-da-da-da-da. So the afternoon that he, like,

1192
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,140
Speaker 4: cops are like, maybe this is the guy. He, it's

1193
00:51:09,180 --> 00:51:12,529
Speaker 4: June 26, 1946. He's 17 years old. He goes to

1194
00:51:12,550 --> 00:51:16,950
Speaker 4: the post office to cash a $ 1, 000 savings bond, which

1195
00:51:16,989 --> 00:51:20,569
Speaker 4: he had purchased with the money from previous burglaries. He

1196
00:51:20,610 --> 00:51:23,170
Speaker 4: had a date that night, and he needed money. That's

1197
00:51:23,210 --> 00:51:25,100
Speaker 4: why he was doing this.

1198
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,020
Speaker 2: He burgles. Then he takes it.

1199
00:51:27,060 --> 00:51:28,259
Speaker 3: He buys bonds.

1200
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,049
Speaker 2: Yeah. He invests. Uh-huh. And then he needs the money

1201
00:51:31,090 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 2: to take a lady on a date.

1202
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,819
Speaker 4: Which $ 1, 000.

1203
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:34,620
Speaker 2: For a date.

1204
00:51:34,660 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 4: I'm like, fucking take me out, bro. Where are you

1205
00:51:36,980 --> 00:51:40,280
Speaker 4: going to go in Chicago? He has your forehead.

1206
00:51:40,300 --> 00:51:43,410
Speaker 2: He has a three head for sure.

1207
00:51:43,430 --> 00:51:47,330
Speaker 3: No, it's just like a strong, dark hairline Karen forehead.

1208
00:51:47,410 --> 00:51:52,810
Speaker 2: Yes. Kilgara forehead. Um. It also, he has very great,

1209
00:51:53,670 --> 00:51:57,310
Speaker 2: great hair, great eyebrows. Good features. He, you know, he

1210
00:51:57,370 --> 00:51:59,870
Speaker 2: looks the first, you've got, you're getting texts, Steven. I

1211
00:52:00,110 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 2: want to read those texts out loud so bad, Steven.

1212
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 3: Don't you?

1213
00:52:03,100 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 2: Who, who would play him? Um.

1214
00:52:05,950 --> 00:52:08,089
Speaker 3: Rob Riggle. That's the first person I thought of when

1215
00:52:08,110 --> 00:52:08,950
Speaker 3: I looked at that picture.

1216
00:52:08,969 --> 00:52:10,650
Speaker 4: If Rob Riggle, I feel like he'd have to be

1217
00:52:10,690 --> 00:52:13,900
Speaker 4: a little smaller, but he definitely has, if Italian shorter

1218
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:14,620
Speaker 4: Rob Riggle.

1219
00:52:14,780 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 3: You know what we do? Rob Riggle.

1220
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 2: We do a Dorf on golf thing where Rob Riggle

1221
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:20,280
Speaker 2: stands on his knees. Totally.

1222
00:52:20,660 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 3: And then we shoot around it, you know.

1223
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 2: We just make it work.

1224
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1225
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 3: We just make, we, we do.

1226
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,220
Speaker 2: A being John Malkovich kind of small down the set.

1227
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 2: He gets on his knees.

1228
00:52:30,380 --> 00:52:31,219
Speaker 3: We're off to the races.

1229
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:31,610
Speaker 2: Okay.

1230
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:33,569
Speaker 3: I figured it out. I'll call some people.

1231
00:52:33,730 --> 00:52:33,969
Speaker 2: Great.

1232
00:52:34,810 --> 00:52:35,230
Speaker 3: I'll be there.

1233
00:52:36,780 --> 00:52:39,650
Speaker 4: Oh, and so he, okay, so he has this thousand

1234
00:52:39,670 --> 00:52:41,310
Speaker 4: dollars on him. He's like, fuck, I'm going to bring

1235
00:52:41,330 --> 00:52:42,549
Speaker 4: a gun with me. This is a lot of money.

1236
00:52:42,810 --> 00:52:43,910
Speaker 4: That's why he has a gun on him.

1237
00:52:45,050 --> 00:52:49,060
Speaker 2: He's making, listen, look, this guy, listen.

1238
00:52:49,989 --> 00:52:51,830
Speaker 3: He's making bad decisions, okay?

1239
00:52:51,870 --> 00:52:53,649
Speaker 2: Yeah, consistently. Consistently.

1240
00:52:53,750 --> 00:52:57,660
Speaker 4: This isn't... Before I fucking tell why he's innocent about

1241
00:52:57,700 --> 00:52:59,240
Speaker 4: other shit, he sucks.

1242
00:52:59,460 --> 00:53:00,940
Speaker 3: And, like, he's doing some shitty stuff.

1243
00:53:01,060 --> 00:53:01,219
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1244
00:53:01,500 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 4: Because when he finds out that the bank is closed,

1245
00:53:03,700 --> 00:53:05,420
Speaker 4: he's like, well, I'll just rob a place real quick

1246
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 4: and get some cash for this date tonight.

1247
00:53:08,300 --> 00:53:09,380
Speaker 5: So, like, you're not.

1248
00:53:09,420 --> 00:53:10,580
Speaker 2: And you have a gun.

1249
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,370
Speaker 3: On you, too. You're not the best fucking dude.

1250
00:53:13,770 --> 00:53:15,610
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because if you're smart enough to go to

1251
00:53:15,650 --> 00:53:17,550
Speaker 2: college when you're 16 years old and be Mr.

1252
00:53:17,590 --> 00:53:17,850
Speaker 4: Gifted.

1253
00:53:19,250 --> 00:53:22,500
Speaker 2: But you're not, none of those abilities are applying to

1254
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 2: any other part of your life.

1255
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:24,100
Speaker 1: Right.

1256
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 4: Or like, it's not even about being smart. It's just like,

1257
00:53:27,460 --> 00:53:29,240
Speaker 4: fuck everyone. Fuck everyone else.

1258
00:53:29,910 --> 00:53:31,210
Speaker 3: I want what I want. I'm going to take it.

1259
00:53:31,310 --> 00:53:31,529
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1260
00:53:31,550 --> 00:53:33,630
Speaker 3: Like you're stealing money from people who probably need that

1261
00:53:33,670 --> 00:53:34,149
Speaker 3: money too.

1262
00:53:34,170 --> 00:53:37,630
Speaker 2: Yeah. dude well right and it's yeah that's all power

1263
00:53:37,710 --> 00:53:40,350
Speaker 2: moves and stuff where it's like that you know those

1264
00:53:40,390 --> 00:53:43,090
Speaker 2: breaking people turn into murderers because they don't give a

1265
00:53:43,110 --> 00:53:45,770
Speaker 2: shit exactly and they're doing everything it's like the thrill

1266
00:53:45,810 --> 00:53:48,350
Speaker 2: of it and i'm it's what i'm interested in it's

1267
00:53:48,370 --> 00:53:50,010
Speaker 2: what i want to do it's narcissism.

1268
00:53:49,630 --> 00:53:50,890
Speaker 4: Like there's part of you that wants to be like

1269
00:53:50,910 --> 00:53:52,950
Speaker 4: well you're 17 you're gonna like straighten your shit out

1270
00:53:53,010 --> 00:53:55,450
Speaker 4: and be a good person which i think a lot

1271
00:53:55,489 --> 00:53:59,009
Speaker 4: of people sitting in this loft have done in their

1272
00:53:59,050 --> 00:54:03,870
Speaker 4: lives straighten your shit at least two of them Uh.

1273
00:54:04,530 --> 00:54:06,730
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, fuck.

1274
00:54:07,070 --> 00:54:08,589
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, he's so young.

1275
00:54:08,770 --> 00:54:08,950
Speaker 4: Right.

1276
00:54:09,310 --> 00:54:10,370
Speaker 2: But okay.

1277
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:12,730
Speaker 4: So he goes to burglar a place to get some cash.

1278
00:54:13,330 --> 00:54:15,090
Speaker 4: He goes to a place that had been stolen before

1279
00:54:15,150 --> 00:54:17,770
Speaker 4: and it's just a few blocks away from the Degnan

1280
00:54:17,950 --> 00:54:21,370
Speaker 4: house apartment. He's caught while trying to grab the money.

1281
00:54:21,489 --> 00:54:23,739
Speaker 4: This chase ensues, blah, blah, blah. He's cornered by the

1282
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 4: cops and then he fucking pulls his gun.

1283
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:27,280
Speaker 2: On the cops. Yeah.

1284
00:54:27,780 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 3: He doesn't shoot, but it's like, What the fuck are

1285
00:54:30,540 --> 00:54:31,100
Speaker 3: you thinking?

1286
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:33,320
Speaker 2: Is he suicide by copping, maybe?

1287
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:34,460
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1288
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:36,020
Speaker 2: Okay.

1289
00:54:37,300 --> 00:54:41,010
Speaker 3: And then there's, like, the cop's gun jams or some shit.

1290
00:54:41,030 --> 00:54:41,810
Speaker 3: There's a scuffle.

1291
00:54:41,989 --> 00:54:45,049
Speaker 4: And then it turns into a fucking Laurel and Hardy or, like,

1292
00:54:45,270 --> 00:54:50,380
Speaker 4: Three Stooges pic. Because another cop grabs a fucking... clay

1293
00:54:50,460 --> 00:54:54,580
Speaker 4: flower pot and smashes it over his fucking head it

1294
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 4: says three of them like it takes three fucking flower

1295
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,030
Speaker 4: pots and smashes this it's fucking for real yes that's

1296
00:55:01,070 --> 00:55:05,270
Speaker 4: hilarious that's how he gets stopped from fighting with this cop.

1297
00:55:05,030 --> 00:55:10,500
Speaker 2: He was stopped by officers tom and jerry oh Exactly.

1298
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:12,710
Speaker 3: He goes unconscious. They take him to the hospital. He

1299
00:55:12,750 --> 00:55:13,670
Speaker 3: drifts in and out of conscious.

1300
00:55:13,710 --> 00:55:16,070
Speaker 4: He says that he remembers someone saying that he's a

1301
00:55:16,110 --> 00:55:18,870
Speaker 4: suspect in the Degnan case and he feels his fingerprints

1302
00:55:18,910 --> 00:55:19,450
Speaker 4: being taken.

1303
00:55:19,469 --> 00:55:19,529
Speaker 5: Oh.

1304
00:55:19,870 --> 00:55:20,509
Speaker 2: Okay.

1305
00:55:21,070 --> 00:55:24,170
Speaker 4: They raid his houses and shit where he lives. They

1306
00:55:24,210 --> 00:55:25,290
Speaker 4: find all his stuff from his.

1307
00:55:25,270 --> 00:55:28,410
Speaker 3: Previous blur glories. I'm calling them blur glories now.

1308
00:55:28,430 --> 00:55:30,540
Speaker 4: A couple blur glories? They were called blur glories until 1950.

1309
00:55:30,540 --> 00:55:33,060
Speaker 4: They were just a blur of burglaries.

1310
00:55:33,540 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 3: Oh my God.

1311
00:55:34,140 --> 00:55:34,460
Speaker 5: Yes.

1312
00:55:34,620 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 2: Blur glories.

1313
00:55:35,180 --> 00:55:35,740
Speaker 5: Blur glories.

1314
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 3: Karen, that was amazing.

1315
00:55:39,620 --> 00:55:43,030
Speaker 4: A couple things that are recovered are a scrapbook containing

1316
00:55:43,070 --> 00:55:47,469
Speaker 4: pictures of Nazi officials that he had stolen from a

1317
00:55:47,530 --> 00:55:52,970
Speaker 4: war veteran that was taken when he blur-glered his place.

1318
00:55:53,250 --> 00:55:53,469
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1319
00:55:53,790 --> 00:55:55,800
Speaker 3: The same night that Susan Dignan was killed.

1320
00:55:55,940 --> 00:55:56,240
Speaker 2: Uh-oh.

1321
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 4: Which I want to fucking know about this dude who

1322
00:55:58,219 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 4: had that photo album. Like, what a psychopath.

1323
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,540
Speaker 3: Or did he liberate some.

1324
00:56:06,330 --> 00:56:09,330
Speaker 2: if for some French city Nazi occupied and then grabbed

1325
00:56:09,370 --> 00:56:10,430
Speaker 2: shit that happened. You know what?

1326
00:56:10,570 --> 00:56:12,410
Speaker 3: His name was Harry gold. So I'm going to guess

1327
00:56:12,430 --> 00:56:12,830
Speaker 3: you're right.

1328
00:56:13,050 --> 00:56:15,260
Speaker 2: Yes. Harry gold was on the right side. I bet

1329
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,940
Speaker 2: you not a Nazi. He, Harry gold's people came through

1330
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:23,020
Speaker 2: Ellis Island. They're like, why don't we clip that Berg off? Yeah.

1331
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 2: Let's move to Chicago. Act as white as we can. Oh,

1332
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,180
Speaker 2: world war two. We have to fight Hitler. Let's go

1333
00:56:28,260 --> 00:56:30,180
Speaker 2: for it. Let's do it. Okay. Harry gold.

1334
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 3: I apologize.

1335
00:56:31,100 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 2: Okay.

1336
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 4: Also in his possession and Williams shit. is a stolen

1337
00:56:35,940 --> 00:56:39,500
Speaker 4: copy of the Psychopathia Sexualis.

1338
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:39,900
Speaker 2: Yes.

1339
00:56:40,390 --> 00:56:41,590
Speaker 3: From 1886. Preach it.

1340
00:56:41,790 --> 00:56:45,410
Speaker 4: It's the one, it's like the fucking, it's like the

1341
00:56:45,430 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 4: psychology of.

1342
00:56:47,050 --> 00:56:50,969
Speaker 2: Sexuality? Psychopaths. Yes. Sexual psychopaths. Yeah.

1343
00:56:51,010 --> 00:56:51,210
Speaker 3: Right?

1344
00:56:51,910 --> 00:56:52,790
Speaker 2: You know who's read that book?

1345
00:56:53,250 --> 00:56:53,450
Speaker 1: Who?

1346
00:56:53,930 --> 00:56:54,149
Speaker 2: Mr.

1347
00:56:54,170 --> 00:56:54,690
Speaker 3: Paul Bowles.

1348
00:56:54,950 --> 00:56:55,049
Speaker 2: Oh.

1349
00:56:55,530 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 1: Stephen!

1350
00:56:55,910 --> 00:57:01,620
Speaker 2: Sorry, Stephen. Sorry, Stephen. He never got past chapter one. Sorry, Stephen.

1351
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:03,459
Speaker 2: I believe the fifth. You believe the fifth? Yeah.

1352
00:57:03,950 --> 00:57:05,550
Speaker 3: You played chapter fifth? The fifth chapter?

1353
00:57:05,570 --> 00:57:06,219
Speaker 2: That's what's wrong with him?

1354
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 3: And he just starts reciting everything in the fifth chapter.

1355
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:14,350
Speaker 2: Well, it turns out. In Latin. Yeah. In addition, okay, blah, blah, blah.

1356
00:57:14,370 --> 00:57:14,950
Speaker 3: They find that.

1357
00:57:15,590 --> 00:57:18,970
Speaker 4: And then they also find a stolen medical kit. So,

1358
00:57:19,070 --> 00:57:21,930
Speaker 4: and they're like, oh, is this shit, this dismemberment stuff?

1359
00:57:21,990 --> 00:57:23,130
Speaker 4: But it's like, it's not.

1360
00:57:24,470 --> 00:57:25,470
Speaker 2: He's interrogated. Okay.

1361
00:57:25,490 --> 00:57:28,310
Speaker 4: So then here's what happens. Then William is interrogated around

1362
00:57:28,330 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 4: the clock for six fucking days. He's beaten by police,

1363
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 4: refused food or water. He's not allowed to see his

1364
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:35,540
Speaker 4: parents and, or a lawyer.

1365
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:36,260
Speaker 3: He's 17.

1366
00:57:36,260 --> 00:57:39,300
Speaker 2: Yeah. And like they beat the shit out of him.

1367
00:57:39,340 --> 00:57:39,780
Speaker 3: Yeah, they did.

1368
00:57:40,610 --> 00:57:44,430
Speaker 4: He's subjected to interrogation for three hours under the influence

1369
00:57:44,470 --> 00:57:47,870
Speaker 4: of sodium pentothal, which we know is truth serum, which

1370
00:57:47,890 --> 00:57:51,130
Speaker 4: we also now know is fucking bullshit and is not,

1371
00:57:51,570 --> 00:57:57,390
Speaker 4: doesn't work. While under the truth serum, he like, it's

1372
00:57:57,450 --> 00:57:59,900
Speaker 4: like a psycho, what is it called?

1373
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:00,460
Speaker 3: Sexualist?

1374
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:00,860
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1375
00:58:02,420 --> 00:58:03,860
Speaker 3: It's just like that it's just.

1376
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 4: Like it he like concocts this person like an alter

1377
00:58:07,220 --> 00:58:12,950
Speaker 4: ego named george merman who's the father's brother yeah merman's

1378
00:58:12,990 --> 00:58:18,210
Speaker 4: brother um eugene's grandfather that's right who authorized who it's

1379
00:58:18,290 --> 00:58:20,390
Speaker 4: basically like has this alter ego that makes him kill

1380
00:58:20,430 --> 00:58:23,860
Speaker 4: people whatever like makes it up on truth serum maybe

1381
00:58:23,940 --> 00:58:25,660
Speaker 4: and other people like or did he make it up

1382
00:58:25,900 --> 00:58:27,540
Speaker 4: is he the killer is it true yeah you know

1383
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:30,940
Speaker 4: what i mean Um, and then the fucking media is like, Oh,

1384
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,140
Speaker 4: Merman must be short for a murder man.

1385
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 3: And then like, just go with that.

1386
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:35,590
Speaker 2: It's just so stupid.

1387
00:58:35,780 --> 00:58:37,650
Speaker 3: I would have tabled that for a little bit longer.

1388
00:58:37,790 --> 00:58:37,950
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1389
00:58:38,270 --> 00:58:40,650
Speaker 2: I mean, like, I understand why you're excited about that idea.

1390
00:58:41,070 --> 00:58:44,090
Speaker 2: Let's keep working. Not the worst, but definitely not the

1391
00:58:44,130 --> 00:58:45,820
Speaker 2: worst and feel great about it.

1392
00:58:45,830 --> 00:58:47,490
Speaker 3: Like go move, go forward with that.

1393
00:58:47,570 --> 00:58:50,340
Speaker 2: But it's too, uh, it's too open.

1394
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 3: Why aren't you just saying Merman like a mermaid? Um,

1395
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 3: on the fifth day he's given shit.

1396
00:58:59,250 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 4: With, okay, no anesthesia given a spinal tap.

1397
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:06,490
Speaker 3: No, no, that's torture.

1398
00:59:06,490 --> 00:59:08,330
Speaker 2: Uh, holy shit.

1399
00:59:08,350 --> 00:59:10,750
Speaker 4: Then they drive into police headquarters for a polygraph test,

1400
00:59:10,790 --> 00:59:12,290
Speaker 4: which they couldn't do because he was in so much

1401
00:59:12,330 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 4: fucking pain. And to this day, they still don't understand

1402
00:59:14,700 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 4: the re we still don't know why they gave him

1403
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:18,090
Speaker 4: a lumbar puncture.

1404
00:59:18,140 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 2: They, it was like for a reason, but nobody, but it's.

1405
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:22,220
Speaker 3: Like, they didn't write the reason down.

1406
00:59:22,260 --> 00:59:22,660
Speaker 2: No.

1407
00:59:22,780 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 1: Fuck.

1408
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 2: Sorry. They did that in a hospital and then drove

1409
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 2: him to a police headquarters. That's the epidural, too, right?

1410
00:59:29,660 --> 00:59:31,260
Speaker 3: No, it's... No, no, I'm sorry, before that.

1411
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:32,380
Speaker 2: But it's still... Right.

1412
00:59:32,500 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 3: It's stuff getting shoved into your spine. Yeah, they gave

1413
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 3: him that.

1414
00:59:35,980 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 2: That's... Okay, I.

1415
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:41,820
Speaker 3: Hear that with... With anesthesia, it's painful. Ladies who have

1416
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:44,350
Speaker 3: had babies, this is the most... Like, when they have

1417
00:59:44,370 --> 00:59:45,810
Speaker 3: to fucking shove that shit in your spine?

1418
00:59:45,870 --> 00:59:48,950
Speaker 2: You don't want a needle in your spine. I mean,

1419
00:59:48,990 --> 00:59:51,770
Speaker 2: I know I can be really controversial, but I'm going

1420
00:59:51,790 --> 00:59:53,930
Speaker 2: to fucking say it. You don't want a needle in

1421
00:59:53,950 --> 00:59:54,230
Speaker 2: your spine.

1422
00:59:54,250 --> 00:59:55,780
Speaker 3: Karen, are you sure you want to leave this part in?

1423
00:59:56,050 --> 00:59:56,700
Speaker 3: Leave it in, Stephen.

1424
00:59:56,740 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 2: How dare you? Oh, my God.

1425
00:59:57,940 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 5: All right.

1426
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 4: When the polygraph is administered, results are inconclusive. They're declared inconclusive,

1427
01:00:04,980 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 4: although the people... And this is part of him being.

1428
01:00:09,330 --> 01:00:09,990
Speaker 3: Taken a trial.

1429
01:00:10,030 --> 01:00:13,310
Speaker 4: But later in 1953, the people who had said it

1430
01:00:13,350 --> 01:00:18,390
Speaker 4: was inconclusive published the findings in their book, which I'm sure.

1431
01:00:18,290 --> 01:00:19,450
Speaker 3: Was just a fascinating read.

1432
01:00:19,470 --> 01:00:24,010
Speaker 4: And they say that his test, quote, clearly establishes him

1433
01:00:24,170 --> 01:00:25,070
Speaker 4: as an innocent person.

1434
01:00:25,090 --> 01:00:27,110
Speaker 2: So like people are lying.

1435
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:30,300
Speaker 4: Handwriting analysis said his writing is the same as the

1436
01:00:30,820 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 4: lipstick message and the ransom note. They say that his

1437
01:00:34,460 --> 01:00:37,700
Speaker 4: Fingerprints match the fingerprints on the smudge on the door jam,

1438
01:00:37,740 --> 01:00:40,340
Speaker 4: even though it was a smudged fingerprint. And they say

1439
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:46,310
Speaker 4: that it's it's his fingerprint. There's also another fingerprint found

1440
01:00:46,350 --> 01:00:48,650
Speaker 4: on the ransom note that they say is his blah, blah, blah.

1441
01:00:49,410 --> 01:00:54,910
Speaker 4: After being taken. intermittently tortured and held with that food

1442
01:00:54,950 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 4: sleeper axis for five days. He is finally indicted for

1443
01:00:58,300 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 4: assault with intent to kill, robbery, 23 counts of burglary.

1444
01:01:02,860 --> 01:01:05,310
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ. How's that canned rosé?

1445
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 4: I wish I could blame it on that, but I

1446
01:01:08,540 --> 01:01:09,470
Speaker 4: haven't had that much of it.

1447
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 2: Blurglary. Blurglary.

1448
01:01:11,660 --> 01:01:13,260
Speaker 3: And three counts of murder, blah, blah, blah.

1449
01:01:13,300 --> 01:01:16,939
Speaker 4: He's transferred to the county jail and his lawyer who's

1450
01:01:16,980 --> 01:01:20,250
Speaker 4: hired for him is like, no, man, you're guilty. Let's figure,

1451
01:01:20,270 --> 01:01:21,530
Speaker 4: let's figure this out and keep you out of the

1452
01:01:21,570 --> 01:01:23,570
Speaker 4: fucking chair. Like that's his plan.

1453
01:01:24,010 --> 01:01:24,470
Speaker 2: Wow.

1454
01:01:24,490 --> 01:01:27,490
Speaker 4: He said that he, uh, all his plan, he thought

1455
01:01:27,510 --> 01:01:30,870
Speaker 4: he was guilty, his, and that the burglaries alone, he

1456
01:01:30,910 --> 01:01:32,050
Speaker 4: would face life imprisonment.

1457
01:01:32,090 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 3: So he's like, let's just keep you out of the chair.

1458
01:01:34,830 --> 01:01:37,830
Speaker 2: Well, that guy's pretty negative for a defense lawyer. Are

1459
01:01:37,850 --> 01:01:40,690
Speaker 2: you supposed to be like over the top optimistic and

1460
01:01:40,770 --> 01:01:41,230
Speaker 2: fake it?

1461
01:01:41,550 --> 01:01:42,390
Speaker 3: In the real world?

1462
01:01:42,410 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 2: Yes.

1463
01:01:42,610 --> 01:01:45,030
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1464
01:01:45,290 --> 01:01:49,490
Speaker 4: So there's a plea bargain, a blargan, a plea blargan.

1465
01:01:49,510 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 4: He's going to if he if he pleads guilty, he'll

1466
01:01:54,220 --> 01:01:55,500
Speaker 4: get a single life sentence.

1467
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:57,740
Speaker 3: And then but if he.

1468
01:01:58,570 --> 01:02:01,410
Speaker 4: But then he refuses all this shit happens where he like,

1469
01:02:01,570 --> 01:02:04,220
Speaker 4: is like, I didn't do this. They're mad at him

1470
01:02:04,260 --> 01:02:07,730
Speaker 4: for saying that. And then finally, um, He's threatened with

1471
01:02:07,850 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 4: death penalty if the case goes to trial. He says

1472
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 4: later that I confess to save my life. So he's

1473
01:02:15,780 --> 01:02:24,700
Speaker 4: sentenced ultimately to three consecutive life sentences for the murders. Okay,

1474
01:02:24,780 --> 01:02:28,180
Speaker 4: then the handwriting expert recants in early January of the

1475
01:02:28,220 --> 01:02:32,740
Speaker 4: next year. And said that the handwriting on the ransom

1476
01:02:32,780 --> 01:02:36,860
Speaker 4: note and the lipstick message had, quote, few superficial similarities

1477
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:38,740
Speaker 4: and a great many dissimilarities.

1478
01:02:38,940 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 5: Okay.

1479
01:02:39,140 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 2: Doesn't matter.

1480
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,940
Speaker 3: He's fucking already in prison. Yeah, too late.

1481
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:44,820
Speaker 4: And then some have questioned the legitimacy of the lipstick

1482
01:02:44,890 --> 01:02:49,250
Speaker 4: note completely saying that, quote, it wouldn't be out of

1483
01:02:49,270 --> 01:02:51,430
Speaker 4: the ordinary for a man to pick up a piece

1484
01:02:51,510 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 4: of lipstick and write the message with it. Basically, they

1485
01:02:55,060 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 4: think a fucking crime reporter went in there and was like,

1486
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 4: this story is boring and wrote the lipstick note.

1487
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, but what's boring about a woman getting stabbed and

1488
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:05,450
Speaker 2: having her wounds taped shut?

1489
01:03:05,990 --> 01:03:08,990
Speaker 3: That was the first murder. Oh, the note was on

1490
01:03:09,010 --> 01:03:09,610
Speaker 3: the second murder.

1491
01:03:09,630 --> 01:03:09,850
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1492
01:03:10,310 --> 01:03:11,510
Speaker 3: She wasn't boring either, though.

1493
01:03:11,590 --> 01:03:13,630
Speaker 2: None of this is boring. It's not boring.

1494
01:03:13,870 --> 01:03:14,330
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1495
01:03:14,370 --> 01:03:15,630
Speaker 2: But I mean, that's, I understand that.

1496
01:03:15,650 --> 01:03:16,390
Speaker 3: I don't think that.

1497
01:03:16,230 --> 01:03:18,630
Speaker 4: Part's true, but I just don't. And I don't even

1498
01:03:18,670 --> 01:03:21,330
Speaker 4: know if those two murders are even connected, the first two.

1499
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:24,020
Speaker 2: But it does make sense because there was that, it

1500
01:03:24,060 --> 01:03:27,460
Speaker 2: was the pulp era where it wasn't enough to have

1501
01:03:27,500 --> 01:03:28,060
Speaker 2: a murder. Yeah.

1502
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 3: You did have, it was that sensationalism.

1503
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.

1504
01:03:31,060 --> 01:03:32,780
Speaker 3: You had to, you had to have a nickname and

1505
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 3: you had to term things.

1506
01:03:33,860 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 5: Totally.

1507
01:03:34,390 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 2: You know, lipstick on the wall is like, what's more

1508
01:03:36,780 --> 01:03:39,669
Speaker 2: upsetting and crazy. Also that's stolen straight out of Jack

1509
01:03:39,690 --> 01:03:40,050
Speaker 2: the Ripper.

1510
01:03:40,710 --> 01:03:41,390
Speaker 5: Oh, right.

1511
01:03:41,950 --> 01:03:44,730
Speaker 2: Write it on the wall and some weird writing of like,

1512
01:03:44,750 --> 01:03:47,690
Speaker 2: I'm crazy. And also it's the Jews who did it

1513
01:03:47,710 --> 01:03:49,790
Speaker 2: and all that stuff and make people run in every direction.

1514
01:03:49,810 --> 01:03:56,690
Speaker 4: Well, it's just, it, it, Who calls and is like,

1515
01:03:56,830 --> 01:03:57,910
Speaker 4: make me stop doing this.

1516
01:03:57,930 --> 01:04:00,030
Speaker 3: I hate his fucking voice. It's so annoying. I was

1517
01:04:00,050 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 3: just talking to my friend about that.

1518
01:04:00,970 --> 01:04:03,590
Speaker 2: Oh my God. Oh, and I'm not your friend? You're

1519
01:04:03,610 --> 01:04:05,300
Speaker 2: talking to me about it right now. No, I'm telling

1520
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:07,920
Speaker 2: you that we're talking about it right now. You just

1521
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 2: informed me when we.

1522
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:09,620
Speaker 3: Were talking about shit.

1523
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:12,020
Speaker 2: That's my new way of going crazy where I'm like,

1524
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 2: we're talking now. Anyway, go ahead.

1525
01:04:14,700 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 3: I'm talking to my brown haired friend right now.

1526
01:04:17,740 --> 01:04:20,440
Speaker 2: Go ahead and keep talking about what we're talking about. Okay.

1527
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:22,380
Speaker 3: I'm almost done. I swear this is long. No, no,

1528
01:04:22,420 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 3: it's good.

1529
01:04:22,740 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 2: And I apologize.

1530
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:25,110
Speaker 5: People.

1531
01:04:25,410 --> 01:04:28,070
Speaker 4: Oh, also, they're like, OK, the fingerprint that you guys

1532
01:04:28,110 --> 01:04:31,810
Speaker 4: found on the doorknob, that's a rolled fingerprint, which I

1533
01:04:31,850 --> 01:04:33,530
Speaker 4: didn't know about this until later.

1534
01:04:33,550 --> 01:04:34,030
Speaker 2: Yep.

1535
01:04:35,330 --> 01:04:36,510
Speaker 3: Explain the movie you just did.

1536
01:04:36,530 --> 01:04:38,890
Speaker 2: I just basically it's the thing you see in every

1537
01:04:38,930 --> 01:04:41,590
Speaker 2: movie when someone gets booked at the police station and

1538
01:04:41,630 --> 01:04:43,970
Speaker 2: they roll fingerprints. They put your thumb in the black

1539
01:04:44,050 --> 01:04:45,689
Speaker 2: ink and then they roll across a piece of paper.

1540
01:04:45,730 --> 01:04:46,130
Speaker 5: Exactly.

1541
01:04:46,150 --> 01:04:49,390
Speaker 3: Which a fingerprint expert's like, that's not how you find fingerprints.

1542
01:04:49,430 --> 01:04:49,550
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1543
01:04:49,570 --> 01:04:50,970
Speaker 2: You don't touch the door by going like.

1544
01:04:50,990 --> 01:04:53,530
Speaker 4: Do you know how many times I did this move

1545
01:04:53,570 --> 01:04:55,270
Speaker 4: and tried to... And when I heard that and was

1546
01:04:55,310 --> 01:04:57,510
Speaker 4: like trying to open a doorknob in the air to

1547
01:04:57,530 --> 01:04:58,470
Speaker 4: be like, would I do that though?

1548
01:04:58,490 --> 01:04:59,810
Speaker 3: But I guess I could do that, but maybe I'd

1549
01:04:59,850 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 3: roll it.

1550
01:05:00,410 --> 01:05:01,630
Speaker 2: Whatever. You can't do it, right?

1551
01:05:01,650 --> 01:05:04,250
Speaker 3: It's not a thing. It's just like not normal.

1552
01:05:04,590 --> 01:05:04,690
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1553
01:05:04,710 --> 01:05:05,790
Speaker 2: Because you have to grip it.

1554
01:05:05,970 --> 01:05:07,270
Speaker 3: You have to grip it. So it would just be

1555
01:05:07,290 --> 01:05:08,470
Speaker 3: the top of your fingerprint.

1556
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:10,720
Speaker 2: Anyways. So....

1557
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:15,420
Speaker 3: William had been eligible for parole.

1558
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:16,380
Speaker 5: What's going on?

1559
01:05:16,500 --> 01:05:17,660
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1560
01:05:18,340 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 4: For nearly every year since the 1970s, he's been eligible

1561
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:25,580
Speaker 4: for parole. The Center for Wrongful Convictions mounted a clemency

1562
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:28,320
Speaker 4: campaign on the grounds that he had served longer than

1563
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:31,510
Speaker 4: required and that the evidence used to convict him was unreliable.

1564
01:05:32,470 --> 01:05:37,370
Speaker 4: But nothing worked. He just, like, they wouldn't let him go.

1565
01:05:37,390 --> 01:05:39,650
Speaker 3: Wow. Constantly, these things kept happening.

1566
01:05:39,770 --> 01:05:39,990
Speaker 1: Right.

1567
01:05:40,620 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 3: In 2012, when he died in 1980.

1568
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:47,410
Speaker 2: Nope. Jesus.

1569
01:05:47,810 --> 01:05:50,390
Speaker 3: In 2012, he was 80. He was 1983 years old.

1570
01:05:50,430 --> 01:05:50,790
Speaker 2: Got it.

1571
01:05:51,030 --> 01:05:51,810
Speaker 3: He was 83 years old.

1572
01:05:51,990 --> 01:05:55,490
Speaker 4: He was the longest serving inmate in the Illinois Department

1573
01:05:55,510 --> 01:05:59,420
Speaker 4: of Corrections in 2012. He's the first inmate in Illinois

1574
01:05:59,500 --> 01:06:02,520
Speaker 4: to receive a college degree. And he like learned all

1575
01:06:02,540 --> 01:06:05,260
Speaker 4: this crazy shit. He helped all these fucking other inmates with,

1576
01:06:05,500 --> 01:06:08,900
Speaker 4: you know. he helped the fucking uh library and the

1577
01:06:08,940 --> 01:06:10,900
Speaker 4: school system in the and you know so we did

1578
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 4: a lot of good stuff in inside is there a

1579
01:06:13,180 --> 01:06:16,030
Speaker 4: school system in the jail now there is but there

1580
01:06:16,070 --> 01:06:17,930
Speaker 4: wasn't there's a grammar.

1581
01:06:17,570 --> 01:06:19,770
Speaker 3: School and there's well.

1582
01:06:19,170 --> 01:06:21,610
Speaker 4: He helped him like at ged's like you couldn't do

1583
01:06:21,650 --> 01:06:23,550
Speaker 4: that then so because he was the first one to

1584
01:06:23,630 --> 01:06:25,930
Speaker 4: get his college degree and he was in there.

1585
01:06:25,910 --> 01:06:28,750
Speaker 2: Basically as a child and he was super genius so

1586
01:06:28,790 --> 01:06:30,750
Speaker 2: he's like at the very least i can do is

1587
01:06:30,770 --> 01:06:31,570
Speaker 2: help other people.

1588
01:06:31,430 --> 01:06:33,220
Speaker 3: Right so that's a good Yeah, it is.

1589
01:06:33,230 --> 01:06:34,070
Speaker 2: That's not what I know.

1590
01:06:34,220 --> 01:06:36,200
Speaker 3: I don't think most psychopaths think that way.

1591
01:06:36,380 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 2: Right.

1592
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:37,540
Speaker 5: Right.

1593
01:06:38,540 --> 01:06:39,900
Speaker 3: So, all right.

1594
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:44,630
Speaker 4: So Robert Ressler, our fucking friend, who's the former FBI profiler.

1595
01:06:44,690 --> 01:06:48,100
Speaker 2: Our fucking friend. Yep.

1596
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:50,200
Speaker 4: Meaning we're fans of him. That's what I always mean

1597
01:06:50,260 --> 01:06:52,480
Speaker 4: when I say that. Yes, he's our fucking friend. Our

1598
01:06:52,500 --> 01:06:53,240
Speaker 4: fucking friend.

1599
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:53,880
Speaker 3: 100%.

1600
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:54,500
Speaker 2: He's one of us.

1601
01:06:54,700 --> 01:06:58,180
Speaker 4: Robert Ressler, former FBI profile, credited with coining the term

1602
01:06:58,220 --> 01:06:59,939
Speaker 4: serial killer, mind hunter dude.

1603
01:06:59,980 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 5: You guys remember him.

1604
01:07:01,100 --> 01:07:03,660
Speaker 4: So he was a nine-year-old living in Chicago at the

1605
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:07,660
Speaker 4: time of those murders. And he says, quote, it changed

1606
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:11,390
Speaker 4: the innocence of neighborhoods where people had taken for granted

1607
01:07:11,430 --> 01:07:13,970
Speaker 4: that they could have unlocked doors and walk alone at night.

1608
01:07:14,850 --> 01:07:19,290
Speaker 4: And it's those events that inspired him to become a criminologist.

1609
01:07:19,390 --> 01:07:21,050
Speaker 2: The lipstick murders. Yeah.

1610
01:07:21,210 --> 01:07:24,050
Speaker 4: The Suzanne's murder itself became a key element in his

1611
01:07:24,130 --> 01:07:28,790
Speaker 4: landmark theories about serial homicide. And they actually interviewed him.

1612
01:07:28,810 --> 01:07:34,730
Speaker 4: He and FBI profile John Douglas interviewed him in prison.

1613
01:07:34,750 --> 01:07:40,010
Speaker 4: And John Douglas remains convinced that shoddy evidence is, Shoddy

1614
01:07:40,070 --> 01:07:44,350
Speaker 4: evidence management, prosecutorial overreach and media frenzy led to false

1615
01:07:44,450 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 4: accusations with these horrible consequences.

1616
01:07:47,060 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 2: Wow.

1617
01:07:47,860 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 3: That's the lipstick killer.

1618
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:52,660
Speaker 2: That's also every time I think of that, too. There's

1619
01:07:52,860 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 2: obviously like the idea of going to jail and staying

1620
01:07:55,740 --> 01:07:57,520
Speaker 2: there for the rest of your life is a nightmare

1621
01:07:57,680 --> 01:07:59,180
Speaker 2: and people live it constantly.

1622
01:07:59,220 --> 01:07:59,970
Speaker 3: And that's horrible.

1623
01:08:00,820 --> 01:08:04,540
Speaker 2: But there's I also always think somebody fucking got away

1624
01:08:04,580 --> 01:08:06,490
Speaker 2: with it and is sitting out there. They just went

1625
01:08:06,530 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 2: to a different town and did it again.

1626
01:08:08,180 --> 01:08:09,340
Speaker 4: That's what I was trying to look at is like,

1627
01:08:09,390 --> 01:08:11,090
Speaker 4: are there like it's so hard to find info on this,

1628
01:08:11,110 --> 01:08:14,130
Speaker 4: but it's like, are there any, you know, other murders

1629
01:08:14,150 --> 01:08:15,290
Speaker 4: that could be attributed?

1630
01:08:15,890 --> 01:08:17,910
Speaker 2: What if he just went over to Boston and changed

1631
01:08:17,970 --> 01:08:20,189
Speaker 2: up his M.O.? That's what I was thinking, too. Something

1632
01:08:20,210 --> 01:08:23,370
Speaker 2: like that where that's what I mean. I do love

1633
01:08:23,410 --> 01:08:27,250
Speaker 2: that when things happen and, you know, luckily it's been

1634
01:08:27,310 --> 01:08:31,330
Speaker 2: happening lately, you know. Where we get the satisfaction of, like,

1635
01:08:31,990 --> 01:08:34,490
Speaker 2: they catch the Golden State Killer, and that means they

1636
01:08:34,530 --> 01:08:38,560
Speaker 2: have now solved Visalia Ransacker, the hysteria rapist, and then

1637
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:39,780
Speaker 2: all those, you know.

1638
01:08:39,820 --> 01:08:40,320
Speaker 5: Totally.

1639
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:43,540
Speaker 2: They were calling it the original Night Stalker. It's so

1640
01:08:43,580 --> 01:08:45,780
Speaker 2: satisfying that now I think about that all the time.

1641
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:48,320
Speaker 2: What if they pull up this DNA thing, and then

1642
01:08:48,340 --> 01:08:52,670
Speaker 2: it's just like... Because they don't stop. They don't just stop. No.

1643
01:08:53,470 --> 01:08:55,849
Speaker 4: I can't wait to hear more information about, I mean,

1644
01:08:55,890 --> 01:08:57,490
Speaker 4: I'm going out of my mind, which is why I

1645
01:08:57,550 --> 01:08:59,750
Speaker 4: had to stop fucking going on Twitter.

1646
01:08:59,770 --> 01:08:59,890
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1647
01:09:00,189 --> 01:09:04,099
Speaker 4: Of like, give me more information now about the Golden

1648
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:04,640
Speaker 4: State Killer.

1649
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:07,000
Speaker 2: Like they know this about him. They don't, and there's

1650
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:07,979
Speaker 2: nothing coming up yet.

1651
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 4: So I know, but I can't wait to know like

1652
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:16,290
Speaker 4: why and what happened after 1986, you know, It's just crazy.

1653
01:09:16,390 --> 01:09:16,650
Speaker 1: Yes.

1654
01:09:16,710 --> 01:09:17,610
Speaker 2: What were the jobs?

1655
01:09:17,850 --> 01:09:20,139
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, we just want to know everything. It's

1656
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:20,820
Speaker 3: so crazy.

1657
01:09:20,860 --> 01:09:22,380
Speaker 4: Well, one of the things that they said that made

1658
01:09:22,420 --> 01:09:24,580
Speaker 4: sense about, you know, when he was like, you had

1659
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:26,220
Speaker 4: to spend the rest of your life in prison, how

1660
01:09:26,300 --> 01:09:30,179
Speaker 4: awful would that be? But at the time, in 1946,

1661
01:09:30,180 --> 01:09:33,580
Speaker 4: if he did get sent to the electric chair, it

1662
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:34,220
Speaker 4: would have been a.

1663
01:09:34,620 --> 01:09:35,439
Speaker 3: Matter of months.

1664
01:09:35,620 --> 01:09:35,900
Speaker 2: Yes.

1665
01:09:36,260 --> 01:09:40,450
Speaker 4: So now it's like 18 fucking years of appeals. It

1666
01:09:40,490 --> 01:09:41,450
Speaker 4: wasn't like that then.

1667
01:09:41,470 --> 01:09:41,910
Speaker 3: Right.

1668
01:09:42,110 --> 01:09:44,500
Speaker 4: So it's almost better that You know, at least he

1669
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:48,099
Speaker 4: had this time to make something of his life, even

1670
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:48,360
Speaker 4: if it.

1671
01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:49,020
Speaker 2: Was pretty shitty.

1672
01:09:49,050 --> 01:09:51,610
Speaker 4: And help other people. He had a chance of getting out.

1673
01:09:51,650 --> 01:09:53,470
Speaker 4: It just never worked out that way. You have to

1674
01:09:53,530 --> 01:09:58,090
Speaker 4: hope that nowadays something would have happened to get him out.

1675
01:09:58,830 --> 01:09:59,549
Speaker 2: Prison reform.

1676
01:09:59,810 --> 01:10:00,670
Speaker 3: It's important.

1677
01:10:00,850 --> 01:10:03,350
Speaker 2: It is. It's so crazy. But then, like, what if

1678
01:10:03,390 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 2: he did do it? Yeah, but I don't think he

1679
01:10:07,020 --> 01:10:08,760
Speaker 2: would have helped people in prison if he did it.

1680
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:11,380
Speaker 3: That's not, that's not a, you can't figure that. That's like,

1681
01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:12,080
Speaker 3: he was so nice.

1682
01:10:12,140 --> 01:10:14,050
Speaker 2: It's too late. I already figured it and it's fact.

1683
01:10:15,830 --> 01:10:17,050
Speaker 2: But it's the same thing if you're like, he was

1684
01:10:17,090 --> 01:10:18,990
Speaker 2: so nice. I never would have assumed Ted Bundy would

1685
01:10:19,030 --> 01:10:20,450
Speaker 2: have done this. It's the same thing. You're right.

1686
01:10:20,470 --> 01:10:21,650
Speaker 3: You Bundied me and you're right.

1687
01:10:21,670 --> 01:10:22,450
Speaker 2: No way, man.

1688
01:10:22,510 --> 01:10:24,610
Speaker 4: People who are fucking into books and reading and smart

1689
01:10:24,630 --> 01:10:27,760
Speaker 4: and helping other convicts aren't not, aren't less likely to

1690
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:29,380
Speaker 4: murder children and women.

1691
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:33,809
Speaker 2: But you want them to be nice, smart people. Well,

1692
01:10:33,870 --> 01:10:37,139
Speaker 2: I just... But it is that thing of psychopaths only

1693
01:10:37,260 --> 01:10:39,179
Speaker 2: do what's good for them.

1694
01:10:39,260 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 3: Well, what looks good for him is helping other people

1695
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:44,590
Speaker 3: in prison. Except for, yeah, I guess that's true. And

1696
01:10:44,610 --> 01:10:45,769
Speaker 3: look how smart he is.

1697
01:10:47,070 --> 01:10:49,340
Speaker 4: Didn't Ted Bundy get off on fucking guys coming and

1698
01:10:49,350 --> 01:10:50,939
Speaker 4: getting legal help from him in prison?

1699
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:53,860
Speaker 2: Yeah. That's how he fucking didn't get beat up and killed.

1700
01:10:54,020 --> 01:10:55,120
Speaker 3: You've convinced me.

1701
01:10:55,180 --> 01:10:57,440
Speaker 2: Yes. I love convincing.

1702
01:10:57,720 --> 01:10:59,400
Speaker 3: Oh, hey, look, there's a spider on the ceiling.

1703
01:10:59,420 --> 01:11:02,330
Speaker 4: I just threw my head back in fucking happiness and

1704
01:11:02,350 --> 01:11:04,849
Speaker 4: there's a legit spider on the ceiling.

1705
01:11:04,890 --> 01:11:06,710
Speaker 3: I left my glasses downstairs. Oh, my God, Karen, he's

1706
01:11:06,729 --> 01:11:07,410
Speaker 3: coming closer to you.

1707
01:11:07,610 --> 01:11:12,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay, we're back.

1708
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:14,650
Speaker 3: Are there any updates for this story?

1709
01:11:14,850 --> 01:11:18,549
Speaker 1: No updates, but Buried Bones released a two-part series titled

1710
01:11:18,570 --> 01:11:20,469
Speaker 1: The Lipstick Killer earlier this year.

1711
01:11:20,630 --> 01:11:23,410
Speaker 5: So definitely go listen to that. And then let's get

1712
01:11:23,450 --> 01:11:25,230
Speaker 5: into one of your classics.

1713
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 1: Like, I feel like top 20 of MFM stories that

1714
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:30,540
Speaker 1: we've covered.

1715
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:31,020
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1716
01:11:31,580 --> 01:11:34,100
Speaker 1: Let's listen to Karen telling the story about the Lindbergh

1717
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:35,300
Speaker 1: baby kidnapping.

1718
01:11:42,010 --> 01:11:48,460
Speaker 2: So somebody suggested this on Twitter and I was positive

1719
01:11:48,500 --> 01:11:51,490
Speaker 2: I was going to write her name down. today when

1720
01:11:51,570 --> 01:11:53,330
Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, I am going to do that one.

1721
01:11:53,390 --> 01:11:57,349
Speaker 2: She suggested it's a theme and she, yeah, exactly. And she, um,

1722
01:11:57,810 --> 01:12:01,170
Speaker 2: suggested it in a terse way. So I imagine she's

1723
01:12:01,189 --> 01:12:02,810
Speaker 2: the kind of person that's going to be very pissed

1724
01:12:02,890 --> 01:12:06,099
Speaker 2: off that I took her idea and didn't give her name.

1725
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:08,580
Speaker 2: She said, have you guys ever done the blah, blah,

1726
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,780
Speaker 2: blah case? I think you should. It was something like that.

1727
01:12:11,900 --> 01:12:14,780
Speaker 2: It was basically like, come on, get with it. And

1728
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:17,670
Speaker 2: I was like, that's actually a great idea. Thought I

1729
01:12:17,729 --> 01:12:20,260
Speaker 2: could look her up while we were sitting here. And

1730
01:12:20,310 --> 01:12:22,740
Speaker 2: my Twitter does a thing sometimes where it just won't

1731
01:12:22,780 --> 01:12:25,880
Speaker 2: go back very far. So I couldn't look it up.

1732
01:12:26,860 --> 01:12:31,219
Speaker 2: So full apologies. Hopefully I'll hear from you. Email Twitter first.

1733
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:35,940
Speaker 2: Tell them to fix their shit. Let Jack know to

1734
01:12:36,150 --> 01:12:38,830
Speaker 2: stop letting Nazis run free on his website. And then

1735
01:12:39,170 --> 01:12:40,390
Speaker 2: that we need to be able to go back a

1736
01:12:40,490 --> 01:12:43,370
Speaker 2: couple days. Right. Just for the podcast. Or like search

1737
01:12:43,430 --> 01:12:43,969
Speaker 2: a word.

1738
01:12:43,990 --> 01:12:44,429
Speaker 5: Okay.

1739
01:12:45,030 --> 01:12:46,720
Speaker 3: Okay. You know what?

1740
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:49,220
Speaker 2: Also, editing. It would just be nice to get one

1741
01:12:49,260 --> 01:12:53,370
Speaker 2: more pass before you send your ideas out. Anyhow, guys, this,

1742
01:12:53,550 --> 01:12:55,429
Speaker 2: I am going to do the crime of the century,

1743
01:12:55,950 --> 01:12:58,250
Speaker 2: the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby. Girl!

1744
01:12:58,750 --> 01:13:01,270
Speaker 4: I'm applauding you, but I would scare Elvis, who's sitting

1745
01:13:01,330 --> 01:13:01,889
Speaker 4: on me right now.

1746
01:13:01,930 --> 01:13:02,590
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't worry about it.

1747
01:13:02,610 --> 01:13:04,770
Speaker 2: Also, it's not my applause. It's this girl's whose name

1748
01:13:04,830 --> 01:13:07,940
Speaker 2: I'm not saying. This girl! You're amazing.

1749
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:11,720
Speaker 3: Also, woman, we should be saying woman. We don't know.

1750
01:13:11,740 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 2: I actually could be misremembering, and I'm just attributing... like

1751
01:13:16,060 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 2: a feminine aspect to like whatever.

1752
01:13:17,900 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 3: Picture, maybe she had long hair. Who knows?

1753
01:13:20,100 --> 01:13:22,639
Speaker 2: Humans. We're going to, that human is going to let

1754
01:13:22,700 --> 01:13:26,740
Speaker 2: us know, um, just how pissed they are about not

1755
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:31,290
Speaker 2: getting credit for, you know, a case. I also can't

1756
01:13:31,330 --> 01:13:33,390
Speaker 2: believe that we haven't done yet. And as I was

1757
01:13:33,430 --> 01:13:35,650
Speaker 2: doing it, part of me was like, what if George

1758
01:13:35,689 --> 01:13:37,410
Speaker 2: has done this? And I was like, at this point,

1759
01:13:37,430 --> 01:13:39,470
Speaker 2: I just don't care. I just want to do what

1760
01:13:39,490 --> 01:13:39,790
Speaker 2: I want.

1761
01:13:40,010 --> 01:13:41,970
Speaker 3: I think that, yeah, I think that's our new, our

1762
01:13:42,050 --> 01:13:44,070
Speaker 3: new theme is to, did she do this?

1763
01:13:44,930 --> 01:13:48,880
Speaker 2: I mean, let's just start repeating stories and retelling them.

1764
01:13:49,140 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 3: And just do better each time. Oh, my God.

1765
01:13:51,439 --> 01:13:53,280
Speaker 2: Less and less Corrections Corner. Love it.

1766
01:13:53,540 --> 01:13:55,260
Speaker 3: And then in like seven years, we're going.

1767
01:13:55,180 --> 01:13:57,840
Speaker 2: To get to that journalistic level people have been wanting

1768
01:13:57,900 --> 01:13:59,420
Speaker 2: us to be at this whole time.

1769
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:00,140
Speaker 3: No, we're not.

1770
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:00,700
Speaker 2: Never.

1771
01:14:00,729 --> 01:14:03,330
Speaker 3: And then we'll give up on the podcast.

1772
01:14:04,110 --> 01:14:04,689
Speaker 2: Yes.

1773
01:14:04,810 --> 01:14:07,450
Speaker 3: Then we'll quietly walk away in the night. Yeah, because

1774
01:14:07,470 --> 01:14:09,250
Speaker 3: you know how quiet we are when we walk away.

1775
01:14:09,270 --> 01:14:13,110
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I got all this information from an episode

1776
01:14:13,130 --> 01:14:14,900
Speaker 2: of Nova. Oh, great show.

1777
01:14:14,910 --> 01:14:17,179
Speaker 3: Thank fucking God for that.

1778
01:14:17,400 --> 01:14:20,420
Speaker 2: Baby, it's like, and you can get an education for

1779
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:24,690
Speaker 2: free on PBS. And the funniest thing is this episode

1780
01:14:24,710 --> 01:14:29,309
Speaker 2: of Nova. Featured John Douglas, FBI profiler John Douglas, who

1781
01:14:29,330 --> 01:14:33,110
Speaker 2: you just mentioned. He's the main, basically, they pulled John

1782
01:14:33,170 --> 01:14:35,640
Speaker 2: Douglas all the way through of going, the Lindbergh baby

1783
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:38,040
Speaker 2: case and murder was presented in this way.

1784
01:14:38,439 --> 01:14:41,559
Speaker 3: And they got to this conclusion. John Douglas doesn't agree.

1785
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:43,820
Speaker 3: John Dougie. That's what we call him.

1786
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:48,440
Speaker 2: He's in there with his super reasonable face and his glasses,

1787
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:51,860
Speaker 2: holding his glasses in his teeth. A friend of the show,

1788
01:14:52,060 --> 01:14:55,780
Speaker 2: John Douglas, solving problems. It's very, very cool. So that's

1789
01:14:55,820 --> 01:14:58,139
Speaker 2: a good, that episode of Nova you can get on iTunes.

1790
01:14:58,180 --> 01:14:59,979
Speaker 2: Or you can hear it right now. Or you can

1791
01:15:00,020 --> 01:15:02,500
Speaker 2: hear me retell it word for word. Although it's not

1792
01:15:02,540 --> 01:15:05,049
Speaker 2: an exact I survived word for word steal, as I

1793
01:15:05,090 --> 01:15:07,850
Speaker 2: usually do. Okay. Because there's another, there's a Netflix series

1794
01:15:07,890 --> 01:15:11,370
Speaker 2: called Conspiracy. Ew. That is good.

1795
01:15:11,770 --> 01:15:14,930
Speaker 3: And I got, and they do the thing.

1796
01:15:14,689 --> 01:15:17,170
Speaker 2: Where they do, it's a compilation, so it's like three.

1797
01:15:17,390 --> 01:15:19,810
Speaker 3: Stories in each episode. So you don't get bored.

1798
01:15:20,470 --> 01:15:22,180
Speaker 2: What's that? So you don't get bored. Yeah, they keep

1799
01:15:22,220 --> 01:15:26,059
Speaker 2: it moving. And this one is, the episode is Disappearances.

1800
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:29,880
Speaker 2: It's also the other... I can't remember what the third

1801
01:15:29,939 --> 01:15:32,340
Speaker 2: crime is, but the other first crime in that is

1802
01:15:32,380 --> 01:15:34,900
Speaker 2: the Lord Lucan. Oh, you did that guy.

1803
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:35,580
Speaker 5: Disappearance.

1804
01:15:35,620 --> 01:15:38,260
Speaker 2: Yes, I did do that. I love it. Loving it.

1805
01:15:38,420 --> 01:15:40,940
Speaker 2: So here we go. Here's a little backstory for you

1806
01:15:40,979 --> 01:15:44,190
Speaker 2: of why anybody cared about Charles Lindbergh in the first place.

1807
01:15:45,250 --> 01:15:49,650
Speaker 2: On May 21st, 1927, a 25-year-old U.S. airmail pilot named

1808
01:15:49,689 --> 01:15:53,830
Speaker 2: Charles Lindbergh touched down in an airfield outside of Paris, France,

1809
01:15:54,630 --> 01:15:56,650
Speaker 2: in his plane, the Spirit of St. Louis. Mm-hmm.

1810
01:15:57,650 --> 01:15:59,530
Speaker 3: When I read that name, I'm like, oh, that's what

1811
01:15:59,570 --> 01:15:59,990
Speaker 3: that is.

1812
01:16:00,490 --> 01:16:00,650
Speaker 1: What?

1813
01:16:00,670 --> 01:16:02,130
Speaker 2: You know, the spirit of St. Louis.

1814
01:16:02,370 --> 01:16:02,729
Speaker 5: Oh, yeah.

1815
01:16:02,930 --> 01:16:04,710
Speaker 2: Like if you had asked me that, I would have

1816
01:16:04,729 --> 01:16:06,269
Speaker 2: confused it with the Spruce Goose.

1817
01:16:06,570 --> 01:16:06,840
Speaker 1: Uh-huh.

1818
01:16:07,150 --> 01:16:10,460
Speaker 2: I would have. Maybe an Amelia Earhart situation. But at

1819
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:11,219
Speaker 2: least you know it's a plane.

1820
01:16:11,500 --> 01:16:11,920
Speaker 3: We know it.

1821
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:14,560
Speaker 2: Maybe it's a plane. But now we know exactly. That's

1822
01:16:14,620 --> 01:16:17,820
Speaker 2: Charles Lindbergh's wonderful plane that got him. He was the

1823
01:16:17,860 --> 01:16:22,050
Speaker 2: first man. To ever make the nonstop flight from New

1824
01:16:22,090 --> 01:16:26,070
Speaker 2: York to Paris. It was 33 and a half hours. Jesus.

1825
01:16:26,210 --> 01:16:27,650
Speaker 3: It was 3,600 miles.

1826
01:16:28,020 --> 01:16:29,719
Speaker 4: Is that like in one of those planes that doesn't

1827
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:33,140
Speaker 4: have a face either? So it's just like wind in

1828
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:33,620
Speaker 4: your face?

1829
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:36,780
Speaker 2: No, my plane? I'm pretty sure it had a face

1830
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:41,639
Speaker 2: on it. Okay. Although, why would I say that if

1831
01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:44,710
Speaker 2: we're two years in? Why would I fucking say that?

1832
01:16:44,830 --> 01:16:47,790
Speaker 3: Because you're not going to start now with not knowing shit.

1833
01:16:47,870 --> 01:16:51,580
Speaker 2: Look- My brain shows me movies and that's reality to me.

1834
01:16:51,860 --> 01:16:52,980
Speaker 3: And I just report to you.

1835
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:53,780
Speaker 2: Yes or no.

1836
01:16:53,810 --> 01:16:55,510
Speaker 3: My brain shows me movies and that's reality.

1837
01:16:55,550 --> 01:17:00,130
Speaker 2: And that's my reality. I love it. It was... 33 hours.

1838
01:17:00,370 --> 01:17:03,170
Speaker 4: We complain about four or five hours to New York City.

1839
01:17:03,170 --> 01:17:08,630
Speaker 2: 33 hours and 33 hours alone. And all day, all night.

1840
01:17:08,650 --> 01:17:09,590
Speaker 2: And all.

1841
01:17:11,270 --> 01:17:12,019
Speaker 3: You hear is.

1842
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:14,519
Speaker 2: And he couldn't bring a bunch of extra shit. Stephen's

1843
01:17:14,620 --> 01:17:18,540
Speaker 2: on the plane. And do you know, thank God, the

1844
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:19,680
Speaker 2: spirit of St. Louis is.

1845
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:23,200
Speaker 3: Uh, closed in the front.

1846
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:26,380
Speaker 2: Thank God. But I bet it's loud as fuck still. Oh,

1847
01:17:26,460 --> 01:17:28,880
Speaker 2: the whole thing. It looks like a big aluminum can.

1848
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:32,620
Speaker 3: No temperature control. No toilet. No, it was freezing. You know,

1849
01:17:32,660 --> 01:17:35,950
Speaker 3: he was peeing in an old Pepsi bottle. I mean,

1850
01:17:37,030 --> 01:17:37,770
Speaker 3: throwing it over.

1851
01:17:37,790 --> 01:17:43,670
Speaker 2: Overboard, throwing it overboard for the first time in human history. Okay. So, um,

1852
01:17:45,510 --> 01:17:48,070
Speaker 2: He when he sets down in Paris and he does

1853
01:17:48,140 --> 01:17:51,880
Speaker 2: this thing. So just to give you a little. Oh,

1854
01:17:52,080 --> 01:17:54,650
Speaker 2: did that fucking. Huh?

1855
01:17:55,590 --> 01:17:56,150
Speaker 3: God damn it.

1856
01:17:57,060 --> 01:17:59,440
Speaker 2: I cut and pasted it and then lost, lost this

1857
01:17:59,500 --> 01:18:02,220
Speaker 2: piece of information, but like six other people had tried

1858
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:04,969
Speaker 2: to do this and three of them died.

1859
01:18:04,990 --> 01:18:06,429
Speaker 3: So this wasn't a thing.

1860
01:18:06,510 --> 01:18:08,970
Speaker 2: This was not, um, this was something.

1861
01:18:08,750 --> 01:18:10,110
Speaker 3: Because it was, there was a prize.

1862
01:18:11,030 --> 01:18:13,809
Speaker 2: It was, um, these people said, whoever does this first

1863
01:18:13,850 --> 01:18:15,030
Speaker 2: gets $ 25, 000.

1864
01:18:14,350 --> 01:18:14,750
Speaker 5: Jesus.

1865
01:18:15,650 --> 01:18:20,170
Speaker 2: So lots of pilots and different people were, um, were, uh,

1866
01:18:20,260 --> 01:18:22,830
Speaker 2: trying for it. And it's really hard. And some people

1867
01:18:22,850 --> 01:18:25,070
Speaker 2: like had to ditch out and whatever. But like people

1868
01:18:25,110 --> 01:18:28,630
Speaker 2: lost their lives trying to make this flight. So when

1869
01:18:28,710 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 2: Lindbergh landed in this airfield outside of Paris, he was

1870
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:38,340
Speaker 2: immediately an international superstar. He was the most famous man

1871
01:18:38,420 --> 01:18:41,500
Speaker 2: in the world. He got carried around the people that

1872
01:18:41,540 --> 01:18:43,929
Speaker 2: were waiting at the airstrip. He never had to walk again.

1873
01:18:44,050 --> 01:18:48,330
Speaker 2: He never walked again. His feet became curled and atrophied. No,

1874
01:18:49,050 --> 01:18:51,080
Speaker 2: they said they held him. This is on the Wikipedia page.

1875
01:18:51,640 --> 01:18:54,099
Speaker 2: They carried him on their shoulders for over a half

1876
01:18:54,140 --> 01:18:55,120
Speaker 2: an hour. Jesus.

1877
01:18:55,300 --> 01:18:57,630
Speaker 4: He's like, I've only wanted to touch the ground for

1878
01:18:57,650 --> 01:18:59,370
Speaker 4: the past 30 hours.

1879
01:18:59,390 --> 01:19:01,030
Speaker 3: The first three were great.

1880
01:19:02,330 --> 01:19:03,050
Speaker 2: Put me down.

1881
01:19:03,130 --> 01:19:03,310
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1882
01:19:03,490 --> 01:19:05,910
Speaker 2: He's like, this is the exact position I've been stuck

1883
01:19:05,979 --> 01:19:09,120
Speaker 2: in for 33 hours. All right. So he gets the

1884
01:19:09,180 --> 01:19:14,879
Speaker 2: nickname Lucky Lindy, gets that 25K. He also gets... Thousands

1885
01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:16,780
Speaker 2: and thousands more for all these promotional fees.

1886
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:17,519
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, I bet.

1887
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:20,550
Speaker 2: Because apparently... The Pepsi bottle? Pepsi company? Pepsi is like,

1888
01:19:20,590 --> 01:19:26,840
Speaker 2: we want that bottle. Yeah. But apparently, this really opened

1889
01:19:26,950 --> 01:19:32,320
Speaker 2: up aviation in general, but also for airmail. Yeah. So

1890
01:19:32,860 --> 01:19:34,520
Speaker 2: he was the guy that kicked it open over like

1891
01:19:34,580 --> 01:19:37,060
Speaker 2: FedEx and everything where it's like, you want, you want

1892
01:19:37,090 --> 01:19:37,980
Speaker 2: to get something to Europe?

1893
01:19:38,090 --> 01:19:40,130
Speaker 3: We're doing now we're going to be able to do that.

1894
01:19:40,729 --> 01:19:42,950
Speaker 2: Um, and that was kind of what the whole contest

1895
01:19:42,990 --> 01:19:45,850
Speaker 2: was about was to, to kind of focus on aviation,

1896
01:19:45,890 --> 01:19:48,849
Speaker 2: but then like, you know, opening up so that suddenly

1897
01:19:48,910 --> 01:19:50,590
Speaker 2: people were thinking, you know.

1898
01:19:50,670 --> 01:19:52,610
Speaker 3: Business in terms of aviation. I don't know what I'm

1899
01:19:52,630 --> 01:19:53,010
Speaker 3: talking about.

1900
01:19:53,490 --> 01:19:57,610
Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. He was. He'd given the Medal of Honor,

1901
01:19:58,310 --> 01:20:01,889
Speaker 2: which is the military's highest award. And he was given,

1902
01:20:02,729 --> 01:20:05,299
Speaker 2: he was Time Magazine's first ever Man of the Year.

1903
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:06,179
Speaker 1: Wow.

1904
01:20:06,460 --> 01:20:08,280
Speaker 2: And still the youngest to this day. He was 25

1905
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:08,760
Speaker 2: years old.

1906
01:20:08,780 --> 01:20:09,900
Speaker 3: That's so young.

1907
01:20:10,020 --> 01:20:12,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. And he was kind of hot, too.

1908
01:20:12,660 --> 01:20:14,019
Speaker 3: Well, do you know who he looks like?

1909
01:20:14,040 --> 01:20:16,760
Speaker 2: Who? Do you mind pulling up a picture of Mr.

1910
01:20:16,820 --> 01:20:19,620
Speaker 2: Charles Lindbergh at age 25 when he made this flight?

1911
01:20:19,660 --> 01:20:20,620
Speaker 3: Don't tell me until I see it.

1912
01:20:20,620 --> 01:20:21,100
Speaker 2: Okay. Okay.

1913
01:20:21,729 --> 01:20:22,090
Speaker 5: Who is it?

1914
01:20:22,110 --> 01:20:23,330
Speaker 3: I'm going to show you a picture.

1915
01:20:23,350 --> 01:20:26,070
Speaker 2: Okay. You're going to tell me who you think this

1916
01:20:26,170 --> 01:20:29,910
Speaker 2: man looks like. Now, please, take your time. I'm just

1917
01:20:29,950 --> 01:20:30,839
Speaker 2: killing time while.

1918
01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:31,280
Speaker 3: Stephen finds it.

1919
01:20:31,300 --> 01:20:33,500
Speaker 2: Was he tall? He looked tall in all his photos.

1920
01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:33,880
Speaker 2: He was tall.

1921
01:20:33,939 --> 01:20:34,160
Speaker 1: Yes.

1922
01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:35,360
Speaker 2: Okay. He was tall.

1923
01:20:35,540 --> 01:20:37,920
Speaker 3: He was blonde. He had a dent in his chin.

1924
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:42,920
Speaker 2: Love it. His coloring was very like caramel, but with

1925
01:20:42,979 --> 01:20:45,370
Speaker 2: blonde hair, which you know those people always win.

1926
01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:46,400
Speaker 3: Let's just tell me.

1927
01:20:46,900 --> 01:20:47,620
Speaker 5: They always win.

1928
01:20:47,979 --> 01:20:48,590
Speaker 3: Let me pull up.

1929
01:20:49,300 --> 01:20:53,410
Speaker 2: Oh. Oh. It's such an old man of the year

1930
01:20:54,310 --> 01:20:58,210
Speaker 2: thing that it's illustrated. That's how long ago this story

1931
01:20:58,250 --> 01:21:00,970
Speaker 2: took place. Come on.

1932
01:21:00,990 --> 01:21:02,070
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sorry I did this.

1933
01:21:02,270 --> 01:21:03,010
Speaker 2: No, no, it's okay.

1934
01:21:04,070 --> 01:21:05,769
Speaker 3: Because why don't you look at this picture.

1935
01:21:05,530 --> 01:21:07,420
Speaker 2: And tell me... Oh, hello, handsome.

1936
01:21:07,439 --> 01:21:08,979
Speaker 3: Who you think this looks like. Well, I'm going to

1937
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:11,080
Speaker 3: get this wrong. No, you're not.

1938
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:13,820
Speaker 4: He definitely looks like he's in a Brit pop band

1939
01:21:13,860 --> 01:21:16,000
Speaker 4: from the 60s in this photo, doesn't he?

1940
01:21:16,340 --> 01:21:21,769
Speaker 2: Yes. Does he look like... God, he's hot. Uh... Tell me.

1941
01:21:22,350 --> 01:21:26,090
Speaker 2: Paul Holes. Look at the face. He does look like

1942
01:21:26,150 --> 01:21:26,590
Speaker 2: Paul Holes.

1943
01:21:26,650 --> 01:21:27,530
Speaker 5: He does look like Paul Holes.

1944
01:21:27,570 --> 01:21:30,070
Speaker 2: This is the Holes episode. Well, let's just work all

1945
01:21:30,110 --> 01:21:31,470
Speaker 2: this Paul Holes stuff out now.

1946
01:21:31,490 --> 01:21:35,370
Speaker 4: This is the Holes upon Holes upon Holes episode.

1947
01:21:36,479 --> 01:21:37,080
Speaker 2: Okay, so.

1948
01:21:37,140 --> 01:21:38,180
Speaker 3: He does look like Paul Holes.

1949
01:21:39,100 --> 01:21:41,740
Speaker 2: So Lindbergh being the most famous man in the world

1950
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:46,100
Speaker 2: and like he's being, he's being famous. brought everywhere. He's like,

1951
01:21:46,280 --> 01:21:49,200
Speaker 2: he's being fed it in this really intense way and

1952
01:21:49,220 --> 01:21:51,820
Speaker 2: he's making a ton of money. They said that for

1953
01:21:51,939 --> 01:21:55,050
Speaker 2: everything that kind of he got paid for around that flight,

1954
01:21:55,110 --> 01:21:58,070
Speaker 2: he made like almost half a million dollars, um.

1955
01:21:58,350 --> 01:21:59,070
Speaker 3: In today's money.

1956
01:21:59,250 --> 01:22:02,230
Speaker 2: Okay. So, but still a lot, a lot of money.

1957
01:22:02,390 --> 01:22:03,370
Speaker 2: I'll take today's money.

1958
01:22:03,430 --> 01:22:04,760
Speaker 3: Half a million for fuck's sake.

1959
01:22:05,020 --> 01:22:08,219
Speaker 2: It's pretty nice. Uh, so that he gets a financial planner,

1960
01:22:08,240 --> 01:22:11,860
Speaker 2: a financial consultant from JP Morgan, like big company.

1961
01:22:12,770 --> 01:22:14,370
Speaker 3: And it's a big company.

1962
01:22:14,410 --> 01:22:19,089
Speaker 2: Did you know? And the planner's name is Dwight Morrow.

1963
01:22:19,530 --> 01:22:22,809
Speaker 2: And he's also the ambassador to Mexico. What the fuck?

1964
01:22:23,150 --> 01:22:26,160
Speaker 2: He was, you know, this was when they gave important job,

1965
01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:29,580
Speaker 2: a ton of important jobs to one white guy. It

1966
01:22:29,900 --> 01:22:36,110
Speaker 2: was the 20s. So. When Morrow invites Charles Lindbergh to

1967
01:22:36,170 --> 01:22:39,220
Speaker 2: come on a Goodwill tour of Mexico, because he's famous

1968
01:22:39,280 --> 01:22:43,020
Speaker 2: and everyone loves him, well, just by chance, Morrow's daughter

1969
01:22:43,220 --> 01:22:44,059
Speaker 2: Anne is down.

1970
01:22:43,860 --> 01:22:46,939
Speaker 3: There, and they meet, and they fall in love.

1971
01:22:46,979 --> 01:22:52,060
Speaker 2: Oh, rich people falling in love. Rich, good-looking people who

1972
01:22:52,150 --> 01:22:55,290
Speaker 2: have their own planes fall in love all the time.

1973
01:22:55,330 --> 01:23:00,950
Speaker 2: They deserve everything. They deserve to fly. Right?

1974
01:23:02,740 --> 01:23:04,240
Speaker 3: Okay. He teaches her how to fly.

1975
01:23:04,260 --> 01:23:07,290
Speaker 2: I bet he does. Yeah, girl. And then he teaches

1976
01:23:07,330 --> 01:23:08,620
Speaker 2: her how to.

1977
01:23:08,750 --> 01:23:09,130
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1978
01:23:10,030 --> 01:23:10,389
Speaker 5: Love.

1979
01:23:11,550 --> 01:23:16,050
Speaker 2: They get married, immediately start a family. Charles Lindbergh was

1980
01:23:16,090 --> 01:23:20,460
Speaker 2: very vocal and verbal, insulting or criticizing, I should say,

1981
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:24,740
Speaker 2: other pilots of the day. There was lots of, you know,

1982
01:23:24,880 --> 01:23:28,020
Speaker 2: pilots like it's the Amelia Earhart era where it's like

1983
01:23:28,380 --> 01:23:32,140
Speaker 2: being dashing, being, you know... Being a pilot was a

1984
01:23:32,160 --> 01:23:34,960
Speaker 2: big deal. He was a trash talker. He was because

1985
01:23:35,060 --> 01:23:37,509
Speaker 2: he said that Air.

1986
01:23:37,410 --> 01:23:40,110
Speaker 3: Force cadets and pilots of the day, they were all.

1987
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:46,800
Speaker 2: They had facile attitudes about women. Uh-huh. How dare you?

1988
01:23:46,900 --> 01:23:50,679
Speaker 2: How dare! Whereas he believed the ideal romance was stable

1989
01:23:50,740 --> 01:23:55,960
Speaker 2: and long-term with a woman with keen intellect, good health,

1990
01:23:57,490 --> 01:23:59,330
Speaker 2: and strong genes.

1991
01:24:00,110 --> 01:24:01,970
Speaker 3: Oops. Oh, so you're a Nazi.

1992
01:24:02,229 --> 01:24:02,650
Speaker 5: Uh-huh.

1993
01:24:02,689 --> 01:24:07,170
Speaker 2: Good one. Good eye. um his quote experience in breeding

1994
01:24:07,290 --> 01:24:10,410
Speaker 2: animals on our farm taught him the importance of good

1995
01:24:10,479 --> 01:24:14,480
Speaker 2: heredity of good breeding oh dear hey chuck.

1996
01:24:14,900 --> 01:24:17,320
Speaker 3: No no no it don't work that way.

1997
01:24:17,300 --> 01:24:20,280
Speaker 2: Okay so that's just a little that's your that's your

1998
01:24:20,500 --> 01:24:25,080
Speaker 2: um foreshadowing okay so let's go to the crime This

1999
01:24:25,160 --> 01:24:33,070
Speaker 2: is 1932. Anne and Charles Lindbergh have been married, and

2000
01:24:33,290 --> 01:24:37,559
Speaker 2: they now have two kids, a newborn, and their baby Charlie,

2001
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:41,259
Speaker 2: their first son, who is two years old. On Tuesday,

2002
01:24:41,300 --> 01:24:47,270
Speaker 2: March 1st, 1932, the family's staying at their as-yet-unfinished new

2003
01:24:47,310 --> 01:24:50,610
Speaker 2: house in Hopewell, New Jersey, right outside of Hopewell, New Jersey.

2004
01:24:51,810 --> 01:24:54,930
Speaker 2: They only visited this house on the weekends. They were

2005
01:24:55,189 --> 01:25:02,309
Speaker 2: living full-time. at Anne Morrow's family estate called Inglewood. So

2006
01:25:02,450 --> 01:25:04,980
Speaker 2: no one except for the family would have known that

2007
01:25:04,990 --> 01:25:08,180
Speaker 2: they would have been at this house because they were

2008
01:25:08,240 --> 01:25:11,080
Speaker 2: full time living at the Inglewood estate, but they would

2009
01:25:11,160 --> 01:25:14,840
Speaker 2: come to the Hopewell house and live there just for

2010
01:25:14,860 --> 01:25:16,660
Speaker 2: the weekend, just for fun of like, this is going

2011
01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:20,519
Speaker 2: to be our new house. There was, of course, full

2012
01:25:20,600 --> 01:25:26,020
Speaker 2: staff at both houses. So sometime between 8 and 10

2013
01:25:26,020 --> 01:25:31,820
Speaker 2: o'clock on March 1st, one or more, they're still not sure, kidnappers,

2014
01:25:33,060 --> 01:25:36,830
Speaker 2: lean a homemade folding ladder. So it's a ladder that

2015
01:25:36,850 --> 01:25:39,250
Speaker 2: has three pieces that like slide into each other, an

2016
01:25:39,870 --> 01:25:40,889
Speaker 2: extending ladder, I guess.

2017
01:25:41,350 --> 01:25:42,130
Speaker 3: But it's homemade.

2018
01:25:42,970 --> 01:25:45,150
Speaker 2: Um, lean it up against the wall of the house

2019
01:25:45,630 --> 01:25:51,140
Speaker 2: underneath the baby's window. The windows unlocked. The, um, kidnapper

2020
01:25:51,180 --> 01:25:55,099
Speaker 2: breaks in, grabs the two year old. Um, they say

2021
01:25:55,340 --> 01:25:58,460
Speaker 2: they theorize that they subdued the two year old somehow

2022
01:25:58,540 --> 01:26:01,360
Speaker 2: because no sound was made. No one in the house

2023
01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:04,700
Speaker 2: heard anything. Everyone was still awake. So it's not like

2024
01:26:04,770 --> 01:26:07,630
Speaker 2: everyone was asleep and the baby was stolen. Everyone's up

2025
01:26:07,830 --> 01:26:11,750
Speaker 2: and awake downstairs. Um, The baby doesn't make a sound.

2026
01:26:11,930 --> 01:26:14,310
Speaker 2: They go back out down the ladder and off into

2027
01:26:14,330 --> 01:26:18,950
Speaker 2: the night with Charlie. And they leave a window, a

2028
01:26:19,020 --> 01:26:23,900
Speaker 2: letter on the windowsill. So there's another ransom demanding $ 50, 000

2029
01:26:23,300 --> 01:26:26,720
Speaker 2: to be dropped off at midnight at a local cemetery

2030
01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:30,439
Speaker 2: on April 2nd. And they warn not to contact the

2031
01:26:30,479 --> 01:26:35,610
Speaker 2: police or they'll kill the baby. So basically, Charles Lindbergh

2032
01:26:35,710 --> 01:26:39,559
Speaker 2: takes over this case now. It seemed to me that

2033
01:26:39,700 --> 01:26:41,700
Speaker 2: what they were kind of insinuating in both of these

2034
01:26:41,740 --> 01:26:45,340
Speaker 2: specials is that Charles Lindbergh really kind of believed he

2035
01:26:45,400 --> 01:26:47,300
Speaker 2: was the shit that the world was saying that he

2036
01:26:47,340 --> 01:26:52,650
Speaker 2: was for making that transcontinental flight. He was cocky.

2037
01:26:52,850 --> 01:26:53,910
Speaker 3: The transatlantic flight.

2038
01:26:53,990 --> 01:27:00,110
Speaker 2: Yes. Some people believe he was a narcissist, you know, whatever.

2039
01:27:00,970 --> 01:27:04,150
Speaker 2: But essentially, once this started happening, he didn't trust anybody.

2040
01:27:04,340 --> 01:27:06,700
Speaker 2: He didn't trust the police. And he basically told everybody

2041
01:27:06,740 --> 01:27:08,720
Speaker 2: how it was going to go. Mm-hmm. And in doing

2042
01:27:08,780 --> 01:27:12,560
Speaker 2: so fucked up this investigation that then also some people

2043
01:27:12,860 --> 01:27:15,880
Speaker 2: afterwards kind of theorize maybe he was doing it on purpose.

2044
01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:21,429
Speaker 2: So there's, there's suspicion cast, but he basically told the police, like,

2045
01:27:21,750 --> 01:27:24,070
Speaker 2: we're going to make this ransom drop. You will not

2046
01:27:24,110 --> 01:27:27,570
Speaker 2: tail anybody. You will not follow them. Yeah. But, but

2047
01:27:27,630 --> 01:27:30,130
Speaker 2: we're going to do it. And so the police said, okay, fine.

2048
01:27:30,310 --> 01:27:33,840
Speaker 2: Just let us, let us organize the money, the cash

2049
01:27:33,860 --> 01:27:35,920
Speaker 2: that you're going to drop. Because what the police wanted

2050
01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:42,210
Speaker 2: to do was, Um, essentially they're using, uh, gold. It

2051
01:27:42,229 --> 01:27:44,769
Speaker 2: was like the gold standard. There used to be bills

2052
01:27:44,810 --> 01:27:47,010
Speaker 2: that were like, it was gold standard money and they

2053
01:27:47,030 --> 01:27:49,450
Speaker 2: were beginning to phase it out. But they were like, if,

2054
01:27:49,710 --> 01:27:54,320
Speaker 2: if we just use only money with these serial numbers,

2055
01:27:54,640 --> 01:27:57,240
Speaker 2: it'll be easier to track what, if these people try

2056
01:27:57,260 --> 01:27:59,599
Speaker 2: to spend this money after the fact. Right. So they

2057
01:27:59,620 --> 01:28:01,040
Speaker 2: put together $ 50, 000, they put it in this wooden box

2058
01:28:01,100 --> 01:28:07,550
Speaker 2: and Now, of course, when the kidnapping happens, it's everywhere.

2059
01:28:07,670 --> 01:28:12,200
Speaker 2: It's the hugest story in the nation and remained so.

2060
01:28:12,800 --> 01:28:15,820
Speaker 2: Of course, it got even worse after, but it's the

2061
01:28:15,840 --> 01:28:19,019
Speaker 2: hugest story. So when they know that there's a kidnapping

2062
01:28:19,060 --> 01:28:22,710
Speaker 2: and there's a ransom note, a retired school teacher named Dr.

2063
01:28:22,790 --> 01:28:25,570
Speaker 3: John Condon, who idolized Charles Lindbergh.

2064
01:28:25,950 --> 01:28:28,880
Speaker 2: Puts an ad in the paper saying that he volunteers

2065
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:31,420
Speaker 2: to be the go-between and make the ransom drop at

2066
01:28:31,460 --> 01:28:35,269
Speaker 2: the cemetery. No, don't trust him. Lindbergh and the kidnappers

2067
01:28:35,350 --> 01:28:40,280
Speaker 2: both say sounds good. What is this world? You have

2068
01:28:40,300 --> 01:28:43,430
Speaker 2: to see it in the Nova special. The Nova special

2069
01:28:43,439 --> 01:28:45,530
Speaker 2: is really good because it has so much footage. It's

2070
01:28:45,610 --> 01:28:46,230
Speaker 2: so crazy.

2071
01:28:46,250 --> 01:28:46,870
Speaker 3: I love it.

2072
01:28:46,930 --> 01:28:48,900
Speaker 2: There's footage from the trial. It's intense. But this old guy...

2073
01:28:54,410 --> 01:28:55,970
Speaker 2: It's just another one of those things where, like, it's

2074
01:28:56,010 --> 01:28:58,030
Speaker 2: a guy in a three-piece suit. So everyone went, yeah,

2075
01:28:58,090 --> 01:29:00,019
Speaker 2: do whatever you want. Come on into this thing. And

2076
01:29:00,060 --> 01:29:03,040
Speaker 2: he is a blowhard. And he, you know, they say

2077
01:29:03,060 --> 01:29:05,880
Speaker 2: he had good intentions, but he made himself. He's one

2078
01:29:05,900 --> 01:29:06,360
Speaker 2: of those people.

2079
01:29:06,420 --> 01:29:09,280
Speaker 3: He was, like, looking for the spotlight. Opportunist, yeah.

2080
01:29:10,200 --> 01:29:19,370
Speaker 2: So, basically, he goes to the cemetery to make that drop.

2081
01:29:20,270 --> 01:29:23,370
Speaker 2: And he hands over a box full, and it's a

2082
01:29:23,470 --> 01:29:28,070
Speaker 2: wooden box full of $ 50, 000 in these special bills. And

2083
01:29:28,290 --> 01:29:32,590
Speaker 2: he exchanges that for a note saying where baby Charlie

2084
01:29:32,630 --> 01:29:35,689
Speaker 2: can be found. The kidnappers take the box of money.

2085
01:29:36,260 --> 01:29:40,400
Speaker 2: They give the note. They disappear. And the information in

2086
01:29:40,420 --> 01:29:42,800
Speaker 2: the note turns out to be incorrect. So it was

2087
01:29:42,939 --> 01:29:43,940
Speaker 2: all of that was for nothing.

2088
01:29:44,040 --> 01:29:44,500
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2089
01:29:44,700 --> 01:29:47,360
Speaker 2: So they still don't have the baby and the kidnappers

2090
01:29:47,380 --> 01:29:48,960
Speaker 2: have gotten away scot-free. Yeah.

2091
01:29:49,650 --> 01:29:52,180
Speaker 3: So- You saw it coming?

2092
01:29:53,280 --> 01:29:58,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. So six weeks later, on May 12th, a truck

2093
01:29:58,740 --> 01:30:02,189
Speaker 2: driver driving from Princeton to Hopewell pulls over because he

2094
01:30:02,229 --> 01:30:04,229
Speaker 2: has to use the bathroom. He walks into the woods

2095
01:30:04,270 --> 01:30:08,090
Speaker 2: a little bit. This is five miles away from Lindbergh's

2096
01:30:08,550 --> 01:30:14,980
Speaker 2: Hopewell estate or home. And this truck driver finds the

2097
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:20,090
Speaker 2: decomposing body of Charlie Lindbergh. And the police and the

2098
01:30:20,130 --> 01:30:23,630
Speaker 2: coroner and everybody determined, eventually determined the baby was killed

2099
01:30:23,689 --> 01:30:27,490
Speaker 2: the night that he was taken. So it turned out

2100
01:30:27,530 --> 01:30:32,110
Speaker 2: that he had his skull was fractured on one side.

2101
01:30:32,270 --> 01:30:35,590
Speaker 2: And then there was a hole in the other side

2102
01:30:35,630 --> 01:30:38,910
Speaker 2: of the skull, the opposite side, kind of back by

2103
01:30:38,950 --> 01:30:43,740
Speaker 2: the ear. And so the police report said that the

2104
01:30:43,880 --> 01:30:50,010
Speaker 2: officer that went and tried to get the body, you know,

2105
01:30:50,130 --> 01:30:51,930
Speaker 2: like pull the remains out of the mud.

2106
01:30:51,950 --> 01:30:53,450
Speaker 3: Had used a stick.

2107
01:30:53,689 --> 01:30:57,360
Speaker 2: And the officer thought he had poked a hole through

2108
01:30:57,380 --> 01:31:01,360
Speaker 2: the skull with a stick. But in this episode of Nova...

2109
01:31:01,990 --> 01:31:04,050
Speaker 2: There's a man named Dr. John Butts, and he's the

2110
01:31:04,110 --> 01:31:07,420
Speaker 2: North Carolina chief medical examiner. John Butts. John Butts. He's

2111
01:31:07,439 --> 01:31:10,000
Speaker 2: a retired medical examiner, but he's also an expert on

2112
01:31:10,020 --> 01:31:13,260
Speaker 2: the death of suspicious death in children. Oh, my God.

2113
01:31:13,479 --> 01:31:14,660
Speaker 3: I want to talk to him forever.

2114
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:15,040
Speaker 2: Right?

2115
01:31:15,360 --> 01:31:16,000
Speaker 3: And he's so.

2116
01:31:16,180 --> 01:31:18,530
Speaker 2: I love when those guys come on and they're just like, nope.

2117
01:31:18,890 --> 01:31:22,190
Speaker 2: And it's basically he's saying you could not, the way

2118
01:31:22,470 --> 01:31:26,750
Speaker 2: especially children's skulls are, you couldn't poke... There's no way

2119
01:31:26,790 --> 01:31:30,270
Speaker 2: to do that. And so even if whether or not

2120
01:31:30,390 --> 01:31:33,530
Speaker 2: this person was just simply mistaken and freaked out or

2121
01:31:34,250 --> 01:31:39,229
Speaker 2: they were trying to mislead, he believes that the original wound. Oh,

2122
01:31:39,310 --> 01:31:43,310
Speaker 2: because the theory was from that. The theory became that

2123
01:31:43,350 --> 01:31:45,250
Speaker 2: when the kidnappers were coming back.

2124
01:31:45,090 --> 01:31:47,720
Speaker 3: Down, this is where this story has stuck this part.

2125
01:31:48,030 --> 01:31:48,380
Speaker 2: I know.

2126
01:31:48,450 --> 01:31:51,300
Speaker 3: And it fucking sucks. Is horrifying.

2127
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:55,309
Speaker 2: Yeah. They thought at the time the kidnappers were coming

2128
01:31:55,630 --> 01:31:58,130
Speaker 2: down the ladder with the baby and dropped the baby.

2129
01:31:58,390 --> 01:32:00,729
Speaker 4: Or fell forward at the, because wasn't one of the

2130
01:32:00,770 --> 01:32:02,189
Speaker 4: ladder rungs broken?

2131
01:32:02,210 --> 01:32:05,389
Speaker 2: Yeah, this ladder is the rickety-est, dumbest looking thing you've

2132
01:32:05,410 --> 01:32:07,840
Speaker 2: ever seen. It's truly like if we went and made

2133
01:32:07,900 --> 01:32:10,799
Speaker 2: our own ladder. I mean, anything's possible with a homemade

2134
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:15,700
Speaker 2: three-tiered ladder. Insane. And when you see this thing, and

2135
01:32:15,720 --> 01:32:18,900
Speaker 2: you can see it in the Nova thing, it's like

2136
01:32:18,979 --> 01:32:23,440
Speaker 2: it doesn't even make sense. But the problem is with

2137
01:32:23,479 --> 01:32:26,860
Speaker 2: that theory, the fracture, that only accounts for the fracture

2138
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:30,240
Speaker 2: on one side. Right. And it doesn't include just the

2139
01:32:30,280 --> 01:32:33,000
Speaker 2: baby had more injuries than that. And they, I think

2140
01:32:33,080 --> 01:32:36,309
Speaker 2: probably maybe in the hopes of simplifying, but basically they

2141
01:32:36,330 --> 01:32:39,650
Speaker 2: weren't taking into account. And so Dr. John Butts was like,

2142
01:32:40,070 --> 01:32:42,970
Speaker 2: that baby must have been laying down and there is

2143
01:32:43,010 --> 01:32:45,250
Speaker 2: a blow to one side of the baby's head, which

2144
01:32:45,290 --> 01:32:48,260
Speaker 2: caused the hole by the ear. And the pressure of

2145
01:32:48,300 --> 01:32:52,280
Speaker 2: that caused the fracture on the other side. That's his theory, personally.

2146
01:32:52,680 --> 01:32:53,570
Speaker 2: No buts about it.

2147
01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:54,480
Speaker 3: Is that his TV show?

2148
01:32:55,820 --> 01:32:57,680
Speaker 2: And then he just goes through and is talking about

2149
01:32:57,800 --> 01:32:59,040
Speaker 2: horrible child deaths.

2150
01:32:59,420 --> 01:33:00,820
Speaker 3: Everyone's like, wait, I thought this was.

2151
01:33:01,840 --> 01:33:03,510
Speaker 2: He's like, and this is how it went. And there's

2152
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:04,410
Speaker 2: no buts about it.

2153
01:33:04,430 --> 01:33:05,469
Speaker 3: And everyone's crying.

2154
01:33:06,030 --> 01:33:07,730
Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about this anymore. Two and

2155
01:33:07,750 --> 01:33:11,850
Speaker 2: a half years after the body is discovered, it basically

2156
01:33:11,970 --> 01:33:13,550
Speaker 2: goes cold for a little while.

2157
01:33:14,490 --> 01:33:15,160
Speaker 3: A man in.

2158
01:33:15,979 --> 01:33:20,100
Speaker 2: New York state buys 98 cents worth of gas, but

2159
01:33:20,120 --> 01:33:24,320
Speaker 2: he pays with a $ 10 gold certificate with.

2160
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:25,020
Speaker 3: This old money. Yeah.

2161
01:33:25,820 --> 01:33:25,939
Speaker 1: And.

2162
01:33:26,479 --> 01:33:30,240
Speaker 2: The attendant cites it and writes down his license plate number,

2163
01:33:30,400 --> 01:33:32,380
Speaker 2: not because he knows it has anything to do with

2164
01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:35,460
Speaker 2: the Lindbergh kidnapping, but he knows that money, that currency

2165
01:33:35,500 --> 01:33:38,880
Speaker 2: is going out of use. And he wants to make

2166
01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:41,200
Speaker 2: sure he writes the license plate number down because he

2167
01:33:41,260 --> 01:33:43,080
Speaker 2: wants to make sure he can get a hold of

2168
01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:45,340
Speaker 2: that guy if the bank doesn't take his money.

2169
01:33:45,360 --> 01:33:49,219
Speaker 4: What a crazy world to be living in that certain

2170
01:33:49,260 --> 01:33:49,840
Speaker 4: currency is.

2171
01:33:49,800 --> 01:33:52,300
Speaker 3: Going out and not going to exist anymore.

2172
01:33:52,420 --> 01:33:52,620
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2173
01:33:52,660 --> 01:33:55,430
Speaker 3: Like imagine just living it. It's so old timey.

2174
01:33:55,810 --> 01:33:58,350
Speaker 2: It is, but it all looks exactly the same. It's

2175
01:33:58,390 --> 01:34:01,810
Speaker 2: the same design as modern money. It just had yellow,

2176
01:34:02,010 --> 01:34:04,790
Speaker 2: like gold things on it. I don't, I didn't look

2177
01:34:04,830 --> 01:34:08,150
Speaker 2: up what the gold standard was. I didn't, but you know,

2178
01:34:08,189 --> 01:34:11,259
Speaker 2: if you're interested in currency or the U S mint,

2179
01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:15,820
Speaker 2: I urge you to take a tour and educate yourself.

2180
01:34:16,620 --> 01:34:20,560
Speaker 2: I can't do it all. Um, So the cool thing

2181
01:34:20,600 --> 01:34:23,880
Speaker 2: is then he immediately calls the bank. The bank recognizes

2182
01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:27,509
Speaker 2: that it's on this list of the Lindbergh ransom money.

2183
01:34:27,830 --> 01:34:28,750
Speaker 3: And they call the police.

2184
01:34:29,090 --> 01:34:33,309
Speaker 2: So. Why do I think I can hold a huge

2185
01:34:33,390 --> 01:34:35,370
Speaker 2: cup of coffee and do this at the same time?

2186
01:34:35,970 --> 01:34:38,330
Speaker 2: So that license plate is tracked back to a car

2187
01:34:38,370 --> 01:34:42,760
Speaker 2: that belongs to a man named Bruno Richard Hopman. Hopman

2188
01:34:42,900 --> 01:34:45,439
Speaker 2: is a German immigrant carpenter who lives in the Bronx.

2189
01:34:46,260 --> 01:34:49,100
Speaker 2: And when the police search his home, they find a

2190
01:34:50,280 --> 01:34:54,280
Speaker 2: little less than $ 14, 000, which is exactly two-thirds.

2191
01:34:53,800 --> 01:34:54,620
Speaker 3: Of the ransom money.

2192
01:34:54,700 --> 01:34:57,780
Speaker 2: No way. I'm sorry, one-third of.

2193
01:34:57,740 --> 01:34:58,420
Speaker 3: The ransom money.

2194
01:34:58,439 --> 01:34:58,939
Speaker 5: Got it.

2195
01:34:59,360 --> 01:35:00,479
Speaker 2: That's what I thought. Yes.

2196
01:35:01,270 --> 01:35:01,630
Speaker 5: Um, 50,000 half is 25.

2197
01:35:01,630 --> 01:35:03,410
Speaker 2: Yeah. A third. I wrote two thirds. Well.

2198
01:35:10,530 --> 01:35:11,950
Speaker 3: The other person has two thirds.

2199
01:35:12,290 --> 01:35:12,490
Speaker 1: Right.

2200
01:35:12,530 --> 01:35:13,730
Speaker 2: It's the non.

2201
01:35:13,750 --> 01:35:14,349
Speaker 3: That's what you meant.

2202
01:35:14,670 --> 01:35:15,410
Speaker 2: It's the third.

2203
01:35:15,590 --> 01:35:16,570
Speaker 3: That's not the two thirds.

2204
01:35:16,950 --> 01:35:17,479
Speaker 2: Exactly.

2205
01:35:17,490 --> 01:35:18,560
Speaker 3: And that's what I'm trying to say.

2206
01:35:20,660 --> 01:35:23,479
Speaker 2: He has. So basically, he has the money with the

2207
01:35:23,520 --> 01:35:25,800
Speaker 2: serial numbers in his house.

2208
01:35:26,160 --> 01:35:28,900
Speaker 3: He also has a handgun. They're like, it's this guy.

2209
01:35:29,900 --> 01:35:32,160
Speaker 2: Then they look up that he has a criminal record

2210
01:35:32,260 --> 01:35:35,600
Speaker 2: where he's from in Germany. He had two arrests, one

2211
01:35:35,640 --> 01:35:38,339
Speaker 2: for climbing up a ladder into the second story window. What?

2212
01:35:38,479 --> 01:35:40,340
Speaker 2: To break into the mayor's house. Shut your fucking face.

2213
01:35:42,270 --> 01:35:42,450
Speaker 1: Germany?

2214
01:35:42,990 --> 01:35:43,969
Speaker 3: The whole mayor of Germany.

2215
01:35:46,930 --> 01:35:51,600
Speaker 2: And the other crime was for holding up two women

2216
01:35:51,979 --> 01:35:53,360
Speaker 2: who were pushing a baby carriage.

2217
01:35:53,380 --> 01:35:57,660
Speaker 3: Dude, you're like, it's like a map. It's a map

2218
01:35:57,740 --> 01:35:59,939
Speaker 3: and it's like, here's one thing I'm not afraid to do.

2219
01:35:59,960 --> 01:36:00,160
Speaker 1: Right.

2220
01:36:00,240 --> 01:36:02,570
Speaker 2: Here's this other thing I'm interested in doing. Also, I

2221
01:36:02,689 --> 01:36:05,590
Speaker 2: love ladders. Also, God damn it, I love to make

2222
01:36:05,630 --> 01:36:09,450
Speaker 2: a ladder. Now, on that very topic, if you picture,

2223
01:36:09,729 --> 01:36:12,210
Speaker 2: so this ladder needs to be tall enough to reach...

2224
01:36:12,500 --> 01:36:15,350
Speaker 2: a second story window. So it's like he made a

2225
01:36:15,390 --> 01:36:18,490
Speaker 2: normal ladder. Then he made a slightly smaller ladder that

2226
01:36:18,510 --> 01:36:22,110
Speaker 2: would slide up within that ladder. And then a third one.

2227
01:36:22,729 --> 01:36:25,189
Speaker 2: Like that's how rickety and janky this ladder was.

2228
01:36:25,210 --> 01:36:26,250
Speaker 3: I wouldn't claim that thing.

2229
01:36:26,760 --> 01:36:31,799
Speaker 2: And they find that the third section of this ladder,

2230
01:36:32,040 --> 01:36:36,120
Speaker 2: there's a piece of it that's made from yellow pine.

2231
01:36:36,860 --> 01:36:40,880
Speaker 2: And when they look up into Richard Hopman's attic and,

2232
01:36:41,460 --> 01:36:44,599
Speaker 2: The floorboards of the attic are made of yellow pine. Dude.

2233
01:36:44,680 --> 01:36:47,200
Speaker 2: They pull that shit down, they pull that piece of

2234
01:36:47,220 --> 01:36:50,800
Speaker 2: the ladder off, and they match it exactly. So it's

2235
01:36:51,100 --> 01:36:54,570
Speaker 2: one more piece of, like, confirming evidence that this guy

2236
01:36:55,130 --> 01:36:56,810
Speaker 2: was there and had something.

2237
01:36:56,570 --> 01:36:57,150
Speaker 3: To do with it.

2238
01:36:57,370 --> 01:36:57,790
Speaker 5: Oh, sorry.

2239
01:36:57,870 --> 01:37:01,170
Speaker 2: Also, the bottom legs of the bottom part of the

2240
01:37:01,210 --> 01:37:04,309
Speaker 2: ladder broke, and that's what led them to that, um...

2241
01:37:04,689 --> 01:37:07,540
Speaker 2: Theory that the baby fell and cracked its head.

2242
01:37:07,560 --> 01:37:07,780
Speaker 4: Okay.

2243
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:11,760
Speaker 2: Because the part of the ladder that he left there,

2244
01:37:11,780 --> 01:37:13,580
Speaker 2: the bottom.

2245
01:37:13,620 --> 01:37:14,460
Speaker 3: Legs were broken.

2246
01:37:14,479 --> 01:37:14,740
Speaker 5: Okay.

2247
01:37:14,979 --> 01:37:18,780
Speaker 3: Or had cracked. It's rickety as shit. It's like, why even?

2248
01:37:19,120 --> 01:37:19,340
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2249
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:21,660
Speaker 3: Just get four people and climb on their backs.

2250
01:37:21,729 --> 01:37:22,450
Speaker 2: It would be safer.

2251
01:37:24,689 --> 01:37:24,929
Speaker 1: Okay.

2252
01:37:25,110 --> 01:37:31,650
Speaker 2: So all of that combined gets Richard Hopman arrested on

2253
01:37:31,689 --> 01:37:32,250
Speaker 2: September 19th, 1934.

2254
01:37:32,250 --> 01:37:32,430
Speaker 5: Okay.

2255
01:37:34,820 --> 01:37:37,809
Speaker 2: And talk about this, like how it all went so

2256
01:37:37,850 --> 01:37:39,990
Speaker 2: fast back then. And there was no, but also the

2257
01:37:40,070 --> 01:37:43,590
Speaker 2: world was watching this crime. I mean that when that

2258
01:37:43,650 --> 01:37:47,570
Speaker 2: baby was found dead, they said the, the nation hadn't

2259
01:37:47,890 --> 01:37:51,729
Speaker 2: mourned like that since Lincoln was assassinated and didn't mourn

2260
01:37:51,770 --> 01:37:55,070
Speaker 2: like that again until JFK was assassinated. It was like,

2261
01:37:55,890 --> 01:37:59,090
Speaker 2: this was everybody's baby. And it was this hero, this

2262
01:37:59,150 --> 01:38:00,530
Speaker 2: American hero's child.

2263
01:38:00,630 --> 01:38:04,030
Speaker 4: Yeah. But we still have the, it's, it's almost why

2264
01:38:04,100 --> 01:38:08,570
Speaker 4: we have, you know, appeals and shit today is because

2265
01:38:08,650 --> 01:38:11,450
Speaker 4: you didn't have that back then. You just fucking killed

2266
01:38:11,650 --> 01:38:15,130
Speaker 4: Ethel and Julius Rosenberg off the fucking bat.

2267
01:38:15,250 --> 01:38:18,550
Speaker 2: Yes. Their solution to everything was just, okay, great, kill them.

2268
01:38:18,610 --> 01:38:21,070
Speaker 2: We solved it. Now we don't have to do this

2269
01:38:21,110 --> 01:38:21,510
Speaker 2: paperwork anymore.

2270
01:38:21,530 --> 01:38:23,990
Speaker 4: Quick, kill them before they ask any questions.

2271
01:38:23,610 --> 01:38:24,269
Speaker 3: About what happened.

2272
01:38:24,510 --> 01:38:27,470
Speaker 2: Yes. Quick, beat them for 10 hours and then kill

2273
01:38:27,490 --> 01:38:28,750
Speaker 2: them as quickly as possible.

2274
01:38:29,010 --> 01:38:30,200
Speaker 3: They confessed. Kill them.

2275
01:38:30,220 --> 01:38:31,720
Speaker 2: Quick, quick, quick, quick, quick. Everything's quick.

2276
01:38:31,740 --> 01:38:32,240
Speaker 1: Kill, kill, kill, kill.

2277
01:38:33,100 --> 01:38:36,890
Speaker 2: Okay. So he stood trial January 2nd, 1935, and he's

2278
01:38:36,900 --> 01:38:37,990
Speaker 2: found guilty on February 13th.

2279
01:38:45,800 --> 01:38:47,780
Speaker 3: The same year and given the death sentence.

2280
01:38:47,900 --> 01:38:51,460
Speaker 2: Now at one point he maintained his innocence throughout the

2281
01:38:51,479 --> 01:38:54,580
Speaker 2: whole time, including when the cops were like, if you

2282
01:38:55,040 --> 01:38:58,050
Speaker 2: give us the names of your co-conspirators, we will reduce

2283
01:38:58,090 --> 01:39:00,070
Speaker 2: your sentence. We'll make sure that you don't get the

2284
01:39:00,110 --> 01:39:04,790
Speaker 2: death penalty. Um, and he, he, he just maintained his

2285
01:39:04,830 --> 01:39:09,050
Speaker 2: innocence and didn't give any names. So on April 3rd, 1936, uh,

2286
01:39:09,950 --> 01:39:12,970
Speaker 2: Bruno Richard Hopman is put to death in the electric

2287
01:39:13,010 --> 01:39:13,769
Speaker 2: chair by.

2288
01:39:13,670 --> 01:39:14,670
Speaker 5: The state of New Jersey.

2289
01:39:15,030 --> 01:39:15,189
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2290
01:39:15,850 --> 01:39:20,040
Speaker 3: So, now, there's all kinds of theories, of course, about

2291
01:39:20,300 --> 01:39:22,360
Speaker 3: this murder. That was it?

2292
01:39:22,439 --> 01:39:25,600
Speaker 2: So the case closed? Case closed. They got the guy.

2293
01:39:25,620 --> 01:39:28,740
Speaker 2: And you can see in this Nova special, they have

2294
01:39:29,030 --> 01:39:33,450
Speaker 2: clips of him literally on the stand during court. And

2295
01:39:33,490 --> 01:39:36,969
Speaker 2: the lawyer is yelling at him so loudly. Like, there's

2296
01:39:37,030 --> 01:39:39,550
Speaker 2: no microphones, obviously. It looks like he's just sitting on

2297
01:39:39,590 --> 01:39:42,840
Speaker 2: a chair raised up above everybody. And the lawyer's like,

2298
01:39:42,860 --> 01:39:45,500
Speaker 2: and do you tell me anything? And it's like yelling.

2299
01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:50,460
Speaker 2: The place is packed. It was a total zoo. Like that, the,

2300
01:39:51,240 --> 01:39:56,390
Speaker 2: the surrounding area was packed with like thousands of people going,

2301
01:39:56,470 --> 01:39:59,030
Speaker 2: just being at the courthouse every day is super crazy.

2302
01:39:59,530 --> 01:40:01,309
Speaker 2: So yeah, they just wanted it over. They were just

2303
01:40:01,350 --> 01:40:04,809
Speaker 2: like done. And they were like, oh, he's, he's doing

2304
01:40:04,850 --> 01:40:07,150
Speaker 2: the thing a guilty person would do, which is like, no, no, no,

2305
01:40:07,170 --> 01:40:08,509
Speaker 2: I didn't do it the whole time.

2306
01:40:08,870 --> 01:40:12,540
Speaker 4: And yeah, like even the phrase, the Lindbergh baby, like

2307
01:40:12,560 --> 01:40:15,780
Speaker 4: that was like, it was a huge story.

2308
01:40:15,960 --> 01:40:18,020
Speaker 3: It was, it was a huge story and people wanted

2309
01:40:18,780 --> 01:40:19,420
Speaker 3: someone to pay.

2310
01:40:19,479 --> 01:40:21,930
Speaker 2: Yeah. This was a, this was like this tragic thing

2311
01:40:21,950 --> 01:40:24,670
Speaker 2: that seemed unnecessary and they wanted someone to pay. So

2312
01:40:24,710 --> 01:40:28,350
Speaker 2: here's the theories. Of course, the first and strongest is

2313
01:40:28,390 --> 01:40:31,400
Speaker 2: that he didn't act alone. Nobody thinks he acted alone.

2314
01:40:31,760 --> 01:40:35,840
Speaker 2: The lick, the, the liquor, the ladder was too rickety.

2315
01:40:36,479 --> 01:40:39,120
Speaker 2: Somebody needs to hold that stupid thing from the bottom

2316
01:40:39,280 --> 01:40:43,439
Speaker 2: because it was like the dumbest ladder of all time. Um,

2317
01:40:43,760 --> 01:40:47,010
Speaker 2: once he got inside, there's a baby that would make noise.

2318
01:40:47,090 --> 01:40:49,510
Speaker 2: So you have to have, you know, they're going to

2319
01:40:49,550 --> 01:40:53,269
Speaker 2: have to subdue that baby somehow. Uh, and then they

2320
01:40:53,290 --> 01:40:55,110
Speaker 2: have to get back out and back down the ladder,

2321
01:40:55,210 --> 01:40:58,760
Speaker 2: holding it still. Nothing about, it just couldn't, they just

2322
01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:01,140
Speaker 2: don't see how it can be done by one person. Yeah.

2323
01:41:03,200 --> 01:41:06,610
Speaker 2: And there's just so much organizing and, you know, stuff

2324
01:41:06,630 --> 01:41:11,010
Speaker 2: to do. Also, later they do handwriting comparisons. There were

2325
01:41:11,010 --> 01:41:15,950
Speaker 2: 15 overall. The police don't know officially because Lindbergh was like,

2326
01:41:15,990 --> 01:41:17,700
Speaker 2: you don't get to be a part of this. But

2327
01:41:17,720 --> 01:41:21,820
Speaker 2: there were 15 different ransom letters that were written. What? Yeah.

2328
01:41:21,939 --> 01:41:23,500
Speaker 3: They communicated a bunch.

2329
01:41:23,840 --> 01:41:26,620
Speaker 2: And, you know, with the old retired school teacher, Lindbergh,

2330
01:41:26,680 --> 01:41:29,229
Speaker 2: they were masterminding all of it. And at the time

2331
01:41:29,270 --> 01:41:32,050
Speaker 2: and in court, they proved the handwriting expert at the

2332
01:41:32,110 --> 01:41:37,970
Speaker 2: time proved that it was Richard Hopman's handwriting on all

2333
01:41:37,990 --> 01:41:40,530
Speaker 2: the letters. But of course, modern day and in this

2334
01:41:40,570 --> 01:41:43,240
Speaker 2: episode of Nova, they're just like, yeah, it is inconclusive.

2335
01:41:43,300 --> 01:41:47,240
Speaker 2: And it's that super cool modern handwriting analysis where they're

2336
01:41:47,700 --> 01:41:49,880
Speaker 2: taking the, you know, like two letters that always get

2337
01:41:49,920 --> 01:41:52,590
Speaker 2: written together, like an E and a T or whatever.

2338
01:41:52,610 --> 01:41:56,810
Speaker 2: And then they're showing how it's like all percentages. It's

2339
01:41:56,910 --> 01:42:00,920
Speaker 2: very scientific and exact of like this matches, this doesn't

2340
01:42:00,979 --> 01:42:03,180
Speaker 2: because of course in every letter, a couple of things

2341
01:42:03,220 --> 01:42:05,760
Speaker 2: match and then, and then some things don't. So it's all,

2342
01:42:06,590 --> 01:42:08,210
Speaker 2: Total like percentages.

2343
01:42:08,229 --> 01:42:08,809
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2344
01:42:08,950 --> 01:42:10,950
Speaker 4: And it depends on what letters are written before and

2345
01:42:11,030 --> 01:42:14,589
Speaker 4: after them and where they place in the in the word.

2346
01:42:15,030 --> 01:42:15,309
Speaker 2: Right.

2347
01:42:15,590 --> 01:42:16,380
Speaker 3: I love that shit.

2348
01:42:16,530 --> 01:42:19,259
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's very cool. And you can kind of see

2349
01:42:19,540 --> 01:42:22,400
Speaker 2: that it doesn't match, you know, from a distance, but

2350
01:42:22,740 --> 01:42:23,500
Speaker 2: they needed it.

2351
01:42:23,740 --> 01:42:25,000
Speaker 3: They needed it to be at the time.

2352
01:42:25,060 --> 01:42:29,019
Speaker 2: So so they believe that other people were involved. Also,

2353
01:42:29,040 --> 01:42:32,350
Speaker 2: they because of how many things had to go right.

2354
01:42:32,900 --> 01:42:35,200
Speaker 2: With a kidnapping like that, they believe that it was

2355
01:42:35,240 --> 01:42:38,580
Speaker 2: somebody that worked on a staff in one of the houses. Oh, shit.

2356
01:42:38,640 --> 01:42:39,890
Speaker 3: It was an inside job.

2357
01:42:39,900 --> 01:42:40,320
Speaker 2: Oh, shit.

2358
01:42:40,770 --> 01:42:42,190
Speaker 3: And they believe that.

2359
01:42:42,910 --> 01:42:45,870
Speaker 2: This is a man named Lloyd Gardner, who's a professor

2360
01:42:45,890 --> 01:42:46,589
Speaker 2: at Rutgers.

2361
01:42:46,689 --> 01:42:47,290
Speaker 3: And he has.

2362
01:42:47,590 --> 01:42:51,210
Speaker 2: This is his theory. And it's a very strong, interesting theory.

2363
01:42:51,490 --> 01:42:57,210
Speaker 2: Strongly interesting. So it's his theory that there was somebody

2364
01:42:57,310 --> 01:43:00,269
Speaker 2: inside the house that was helping set it up. And...

2365
01:43:02,700 --> 01:43:05,260
Speaker 2: They're also the only other people that would have known

2366
01:43:05,460 --> 01:43:07,820
Speaker 2: that the Lindbergh family would have gone to the Hopewell

2367
01:43:07,840 --> 01:43:10,320
Speaker 2: house because they were full time at the other house.

2368
01:43:10,900 --> 01:43:13,429
Speaker 2: So that's like very few people would have known that,

2369
01:43:13,550 --> 01:43:15,710
Speaker 2: would have known to go to the unfinished house that

2370
01:43:15,729 --> 01:43:20,309
Speaker 2: they didn't live in yet. The police interviewed a servant

2371
01:43:20,470 --> 01:43:24,590
Speaker 2: who worked at the Englewood estate named Violet Sharp. And

2372
01:43:24,830 --> 01:43:28,670
Speaker 2: they interviewed her twice. She gave contradictory stories between the

2373
01:43:28,689 --> 01:43:30,939
Speaker 2: first and second one. When they went back for the

2374
01:43:31,000 --> 01:43:36,360
Speaker 2: third interview, she runs upstairs, drinks silver polish.

2375
01:43:36,500 --> 01:43:40,210
Speaker 3: And dies within minutes. Oh, that sounds chill. she just

2376
01:43:40,310 --> 01:43:43,439
Speaker 3: immediately commits suicide. Oh my God.

2377
01:43:43,490 --> 01:43:46,460
Speaker 2: So then that's very suspicious, right? And it's like, well,

2378
01:43:46,520 --> 01:43:51,959
Speaker 2: something's going on in this household. Okay. So Lloyd Gardner's theory,

2379
01:43:52,140 --> 01:43:54,860
Speaker 2: and then maybe other people's too. And this pulls in

2380
01:43:55,320 --> 01:43:59,670
Speaker 2: as some dark shit in Charles Lindbergh's life. He had, okay.

2381
01:43:59,689 --> 01:44:02,170
Speaker 2: So Charles Lindbergh had a sister who died of heart

2382
01:44:02,189 --> 01:44:06,930
Speaker 2: failure and he started, he was, um, a researcher. He

2383
01:44:06,970 --> 01:44:09,010
Speaker 2: was an inventor. He did a bunch of other shit,

2384
01:44:09,130 --> 01:44:13,380
Speaker 2: but just besides being in the, uh, like he was

2385
01:44:13,400 --> 01:44:15,760
Speaker 2: in the air force and being a pilot and all

2386
01:44:15,780 --> 01:44:17,500
Speaker 2: that stuff. He did a bunch of other stuff too.

2387
01:44:18,180 --> 01:44:22,820
Speaker 2: He started working with, um, a Nobel prize winning scientist

2388
01:44:22,850 --> 01:44:27,070
Speaker 2: named Dr. Alexis, um, Carol and Dr. Carol had won

2389
01:44:27,110 --> 01:44:28,790
Speaker 2: the Nobel prize cause he did all this work in

2390
01:44:28,890 --> 01:44:30,090
Speaker 2: vascular surgery.

2391
01:44:31,030 --> 01:44:31,310
Speaker 3: And so Dr.

2392
01:44:31,910 --> 01:44:37,410
Speaker 2: Carol, um, Lindbergh went and worked with him as a

2393
01:44:37,490 --> 01:44:41,099
Speaker 2: medical engineer because they were trying to figure out essentially

2394
01:44:41,189 --> 01:44:45,179
Speaker 2: how to build a heart pump to keep people alive

2395
01:44:45,320 --> 01:44:48,540
Speaker 2: if they had heart failure. And that's the work they did.

2396
01:44:48,840 --> 01:44:53,140
Speaker 2: But the work that people didn't know so much about

2397
01:44:53,160 --> 01:44:57,320
Speaker 2: is that Dr. Alexis Carroll was a huge proponent of eugenics.

2398
01:44:57,500 --> 01:44:58,160
Speaker 5: Oh, dear.

2399
01:44:58,800 --> 01:45:02,660
Speaker 2: And if you don't know, eugenics was this kind of

2400
01:45:02,760 --> 01:45:06,680
Speaker 2: pseudoscientific belief that that got very popular in the 30s

2401
01:45:06,720 --> 01:45:12,070
Speaker 2: in America because of this doctor that we that human

2402
01:45:12,110 --> 01:45:17,350
Speaker 2: beings should be breeding to make a That basically genetically

2403
01:45:17,430 --> 01:45:20,150
Speaker 2: superior people are the only people that should reproduce.

2404
01:45:20,170 --> 01:45:21,650
Speaker 3: The master race.

2405
01:45:21,680 --> 01:45:25,059
Speaker 2: Yes. And that we should sterilize anybody who's physically or

2406
01:45:25,140 --> 01:45:26,599
Speaker 2: mentally imperfect.

2407
01:45:27,820 --> 01:45:31,280
Speaker 3: It was gaining tons of popularity. And Dr.

2408
01:45:31,360 --> 01:45:37,179
Speaker 2: Carroll told Lindbergh he was the perfect example of the ubermensch, Superman,

2409
01:45:37,680 --> 01:45:42,000
Speaker 2: that eugenics was aiming toward. Which, of course, you know,

2410
01:45:42,180 --> 01:45:45,070
Speaker 2: our boy... Charles Lindbergh was like, oh, really?

2411
01:45:45,189 --> 01:45:45,870
Speaker 3: Tell me more.

2412
01:45:46,450 --> 01:45:49,299
Speaker 2: I love this idea that I I'm the one everyone

2413
01:45:49,320 --> 01:45:52,380
Speaker 2: should be like. And I already was the international superstar.

2414
01:45:52,400 --> 01:45:55,500
Speaker 4: And then you go and you're J.P. Morgan's fucking daughter. Like,

2415
01:45:55,780 --> 01:45:58,620
Speaker 4: Jesus Christ. Master race.

2416
01:45:58,720 --> 01:45:58,940
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2417
01:45:59,020 --> 01:46:03,460
Speaker 2: So he becomes this huge proponent of fucking eugenics, which

2418
01:46:03,580 --> 01:46:10,560
Speaker 2: basically becomes a very shrouded pro-Nazi, anti-Semitic movement. But it

2419
01:46:10,600 --> 01:46:14,380
Speaker 2: just has this super creepy face of like, you know,

2420
01:46:14,540 --> 01:46:17,300
Speaker 2: the American dream is almost how they were trying to

2421
01:46:17,340 --> 01:46:22,090
Speaker 2: market it. It's super gross. Okay, so... um so the

2422
01:46:22,150 --> 01:46:27,250
Speaker 2: theory is that charlie lindbergh charles lindbergh's first son was

2423
01:46:27,350 --> 01:46:30,750
Speaker 2: not a healthy baby that he had a mild form

2424
01:46:30,770 --> 01:46:34,950
Speaker 2: of rickets um there's rickets is the disease in little

2425
01:46:35,020 --> 01:46:37,820
Speaker 2: kids if if they have it bad enough it basically

2426
01:46:37,900 --> 01:46:41,559
Speaker 2: makes their legs their knees touch and like their legs

2427
01:46:41,600 --> 01:46:44,920
Speaker 2: are bowed and they're really deformed um charlie's wasn't that

2428
01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:49,410
Speaker 2: bad so that's some people argue that that this health

2429
01:46:49,530 --> 01:46:52,530
Speaker 2: argument isn't strong enough for like, The case can't be made.

2430
01:46:53,050 --> 01:46:56,390
Speaker 2: But the theory is that they wouldn't have, that the

2431
01:46:56,410 --> 01:46:59,570
Speaker 2: family was very secretive about what all these medical problems were.

2432
01:46:59,590 --> 01:47:03,710
Speaker 2: He also didn't have a closed fontanelle, which I love

2433
01:47:03,729 --> 01:47:07,770
Speaker 2: that word because that's what Holly Hunter says in Raising Arizona.

2434
01:47:07,880 --> 01:47:10,140
Speaker 4: Something about, I swear that you mentioned that just now

2435
01:47:10,180 --> 01:47:12,780
Speaker 4: because there's something about this case that has always reminded

2436
01:47:12,820 --> 01:47:14,979
Speaker 4: me of Raising Arizona and that they take a ladder

2437
01:47:15,020 --> 01:47:17,140
Speaker 4: and climb up to the fucking second floor and steal

2438
01:47:17,200 --> 01:47:17,900
Speaker 4: a fucking baby.

2439
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:21,380
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's kind of exactly, it's like the comedy version

2440
01:47:21,420 --> 01:47:26,019
Speaker 2: of this horrible story. And his little fontanelle. Mind his fontanelle.

2441
01:47:26,260 --> 01:47:28,080
Speaker 2: I love him so much.

2442
01:47:28,510 --> 01:47:29,480
Speaker 3: Mind his fontanelle.

2443
01:47:29,510 --> 01:47:32,630
Speaker 2: Mind his fontanelle. So, okay.

2444
01:47:33,430 --> 01:47:35,410
Speaker 3: So the fontanelle wasn't closed.

2445
01:47:35,450 --> 01:47:37,490
Speaker 2: Which is a soft spot on a baby's head, and

2446
01:47:37,530 --> 01:47:41,010
Speaker 2: he was two years old. So it's very late for

2447
01:47:41,030 --> 01:47:44,750
Speaker 2: that to be happening. Also, there's a doctor, I think

2448
01:47:44,790 --> 01:47:48,559
Speaker 2: on the conspiracy show, who was talking about that when

2449
01:47:48,860 --> 01:47:56,170
Speaker 2: the remains were found, there were deeper inner organs that

2450
01:47:56,189 --> 01:48:01,860
Speaker 2: were missing. And at the time, I think the medical examiner,

2451
01:48:01,920 --> 01:48:05,640
Speaker 2: they wrote it off as, well, it's exposure and wild

2452
01:48:05,740 --> 01:48:10,260
Speaker 2: animals have gotten to it. And this woman in the

2453
01:48:10,300 --> 01:48:14,290
Speaker 2: conspiracy one goes, yeah, but you wouldn't be missing your heart.

2454
01:48:14,430 --> 01:48:17,760
Speaker 3: You wouldn't be missing.

2455
01:48:17,400 --> 01:48:20,850
Speaker 2: Half of your lung, but not your heart. Right.

2456
01:48:21,729 --> 01:48:23,650
Speaker 3: They're not going to be like, I'm a big fan

2457
01:48:23,689 --> 01:48:25,710
Speaker 3: of lungs. I'm going to take this piece.

2458
01:48:25,770 --> 01:48:28,810
Speaker 2: It's not a pick and choose situation. It doesn't make sense. Right.

2459
01:48:29,380 --> 01:48:32,600
Speaker 2: They're saying they think this baby had a bunch of surgeries,

2460
01:48:32,640 --> 01:48:34,880
Speaker 2: that there was a lot of things wrong, and just

2461
01:48:35,020 --> 01:48:38,020
Speaker 2: nobody knew about it. It was like the secret. And

2462
01:48:38,320 --> 01:48:41,140
Speaker 2: that the plan was, because this was a thing that

2463
01:48:41,160 --> 01:48:44,330
Speaker 2: got done a lot back then, that the plan was...

2464
01:48:44,750 --> 01:48:47,810
Speaker 2: that it was Charles Lindbergh's idea to kid, quote unquote,

2465
01:48:47,870 --> 01:48:51,519
Speaker 2: kidnap the baby. Then the baby's missing. And then meanwhile,

2466
01:48:51,680 --> 01:48:55,640
Speaker 2: they can anonymously check that two-year-old into an institution and

2467
01:48:55,700 --> 01:48:59,740
Speaker 2: basically institutionalize the child so that he doesn't ever have to,

2468
01:48:59,939 --> 01:49:02,510
Speaker 2: the world will never know that his genes are not

2469
01:49:02,630 --> 01:49:05,470
Speaker 2: perfect and he is not, this super.

2470
01:49:05,130 --> 01:49:07,490
Speaker 3: Bench oh I did not know this yeah.

2471
01:49:07,350 --> 01:49:10,190
Speaker 2: Well this is a theory so this isn't obviously proven

2472
01:49:10,229 --> 01:49:12,260
Speaker 2: and this is no it's true take it up with

2473
01:49:12,340 --> 01:49:14,640
Speaker 2: Nova if you don't like it but um but I

2474
01:49:14,680 --> 01:49:18,860
Speaker 2: think it's fascinating because it would there's nothing about that

2475
01:49:19,430 --> 01:49:22,890
Speaker 2: story that makes sense. Like this, the, the mystery of

2476
01:49:22,930 --> 01:49:27,050
Speaker 2: the Lindbergh baby kidnapping is why, why would you kill

2477
01:49:27,110 --> 01:49:28,590
Speaker 2: a baby if you got the money for it?

2478
01:49:28,670 --> 01:49:32,280
Speaker 3: What monster would just immediately.

2479
01:49:31,840 --> 01:49:35,299
Speaker 2: Same night before anyone gets a chance to pay off anything,

2480
01:49:35,380 --> 01:49:36,440
Speaker 2: just kill the child.

2481
01:49:36,500 --> 01:49:37,320
Speaker 3: It doesn't make sense.

2482
01:49:37,340 --> 01:49:37,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2483
01:49:38,360 --> 01:49:39,460
Speaker 3: And then keep going with it.

2484
01:49:39,580 --> 01:49:39,780
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2485
01:49:40,100 --> 01:49:45,750
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, And also then just that those behaviors are connected.

2486
01:49:45,810 --> 01:49:49,210
Speaker 2: Like if you're into eugenics, there's something going on inside

2487
01:49:49,229 --> 01:49:53,330
Speaker 2: you that is really gross and really creepy. And it

2488
01:49:53,410 --> 01:49:59,310
Speaker 2: continued on. So basically after the kidnapping and then the

2489
01:49:59,330 --> 01:50:02,980
Speaker 2: body being found, the public attention and pressure was so

2490
01:50:03,030 --> 01:50:07,560
Speaker 2: great on the Lindbergh family. And apparently in one of

2491
01:50:07,600 --> 01:50:10,700
Speaker 2: these stories, they said that there was another kidnapping threat

2492
01:50:11,140 --> 01:50:14,950
Speaker 2: Against their baby, John, their new baby. So they, um,

2493
01:50:15,110 --> 01:50:18,270
Speaker 2: they were given diplomatic passports and they traveled under assumed

2494
01:50:18,310 --> 01:50:20,979
Speaker 2: names and they took a boat. Like they left in

2495
01:50:20,990 --> 01:50:22,400
Speaker 2: the middle of the night and took a boat to

2496
01:50:22,500 --> 01:50:25,559
Speaker 2: England and ended up going to live with family that

2497
01:50:25,580 --> 01:50:29,389
Speaker 2: they had there in, um, In Wales is where they

2498
01:50:29,470 --> 01:50:31,910
Speaker 2: ended up going to Wales. And then they went out

2499
01:50:31,930 --> 01:50:35,160
Speaker 2: to some island off the coast of France. They were

2500
01:50:35,180 --> 01:50:39,260
Speaker 2: just like tried to get away from everybody. But so

2501
01:50:39,300 --> 01:50:41,880
Speaker 2: they lived in Europe for the next three years. But

2502
01:50:42,120 --> 01:50:45,679
Speaker 2: the next three years was 35 to 38 in fucking Europe.

2503
01:50:46,060 --> 01:50:48,100
Speaker 2: And the Nazis were coming to power.

2504
01:50:48,189 --> 01:50:48,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2505
01:50:48,850 --> 01:50:49,849
Speaker 3: And the Nazis had.

2506
01:50:49,810 --> 01:50:53,450
Speaker 2: Heard all about how much. Um, Charles Lindbergh was into

2507
01:50:53,530 --> 01:50:56,389
Speaker 2: eugenics and they were like, guess what? We're into eugenics too.

2508
01:50:56,810 --> 01:50:58,190
Speaker 2: Why don't you come and take a tour of the

2509
01:50:58,229 --> 01:51:04,060
Speaker 2: fucking factory? Um, so that basically he came out as

2510
01:51:04,100 --> 01:51:08,840
Speaker 2: a very huge anti-Semite and a big pro Hitler. Like

2511
01:51:08,880 --> 01:51:10,700
Speaker 2: he was... His whole thing was like, I don't know

2512
01:51:10,740 --> 01:51:13,080
Speaker 2: why Hitler has to be so extreme about everything, but

2513
01:51:13,120 --> 01:51:15,559
Speaker 2: they do have great ideas. He was that guy.

2514
01:51:16,120 --> 01:51:18,360
Speaker 3: And nobody was telling him. Like, I'm not a Nazi, but.

2515
01:51:18,550 --> 01:51:21,290
Speaker 2: Yeah. But I do love, I love their ideas. And

2516
01:51:21,310 --> 01:51:23,030
Speaker 2: they're organized or all that bullshit.

2517
01:51:23,130 --> 01:51:23,410
Speaker 5: Okay.

2518
01:51:23,450 --> 01:51:29,250
Speaker 2: So, so basically he gets, he gets asked to return

2519
01:51:29,630 --> 01:51:32,929
Speaker 2: to the United States to be a consultant for the U.S.

2520
01:51:33,050 --> 01:51:35,889
Speaker 2: Air Force. Because I think the military was like, we're

2521
01:51:35,910 --> 01:51:39,599
Speaker 2: about to get into this thing. Yeah. Uh, at that

2522
01:51:39,640 --> 01:51:42,300
Speaker 2: point when they come back, um, they have, he and

2523
01:51:42,340 --> 01:51:47,260
Speaker 2: Ann had had five children. Um, and they say over

2524
01:51:47,300 --> 01:51:50,059
Speaker 2: the years, his kids only saw him a couple months

2525
01:51:50,100 --> 01:51:53,260
Speaker 2: a year that he was really detached, distant father. Um,

2526
01:51:54,439 --> 01:51:57,340
Speaker 2: and then, so none of that explains the kidnapping and

2527
01:51:57,400 --> 01:51:59,280
Speaker 2: none of that attributes anything. And there was lots of

2528
01:51:59,320 --> 01:52:06,189
Speaker 2: distant fathers that, but then here's another weird twist in 2003.

2529
01:52:06,229 --> 01:52:10,110
Speaker 2: These people in these German citizens come forward and announce

2530
01:52:10,510 --> 01:52:14,070
Speaker 2: that they are secretly they were secretly fathered by Charles

2531
01:52:14,130 --> 01:52:15,710
Speaker 2: Lindbergh in the 50s.

2532
01:52:15,870 --> 01:52:16,370
Speaker 5: What?

2533
01:52:16,689 --> 01:52:21,660
Speaker 2: Seven adult people. So what happened was and this turns

2534
01:52:21,700 --> 01:52:24,420
Speaker 2: out to be fucking true. No way. That in the

2535
01:52:24,500 --> 01:52:28,219
Speaker 2: late 50s, he goes over to Germany and. And he

2536
01:52:28,460 --> 01:52:31,340
Speaker 2: starts having an affair. Uh, he has an affair with

2537
01:52:31,380 --> 01:52:36,560
Speaker 2: a woman named Brigitte Heshamer. Um, she has, uh, he

2538
01:52:36,600 --> 01:52:40,530
Speaker 2: has three children with Brigitte and then Brigitte's sister, Mariette,

2539
01:52:40,610 --> 01:52:41,349
Speaker 2: who's a painter.

2540
01:52:41,689 --> 01:52:44,850
Speaker 3: He has two kids with her sister. Oh my God.

2541
01:52:44,910 --> 01:52:49,520
Speaker 2: And then with his private secretary in Europe, he has a,

2542
01:52:50,189 --> 01:52:55,800
Speaker 2: her name is, uh, Valeska. I just have the name Valeska. Um,

2543
01:52:57,070 --> 01:52:59,170
Speaker 2: that he has a son and daughter with her. Oh

2544
01:52:59,189 --> 01:53:07,160
Speaker 2: my God, dude. Chill out. All seven kids, they're born between.

2545
01:53:05,460 --> 01:53:07,200
Speaker 3: 58 and 67.

2546
01:53:07,200 --> 01:53:10,939
Speaker 2: And in 1974, Charles Lundberg died of lymphoma. And 10

2547
01:53:10,939 --> 01:53:13,560
Speaker 2: days before his death, he wrote letters to all three

2548
01:53:13,620 --> 01:53:17,380
Speaker 2: women begging them not to reveal the secret. And so

2549
01:53:17,600 --> 01:53:20,920
Speaker 2: none of them did. And the only way they found

2550
01:53:21,060 --> 01:53:23,900
Speaker 2: out was one of, I believe it was Brigitte's daughter.

2551
01:53:23,920 --> 01:53:25,160
Speaker 2: I could be wrong about that, but I believe it

2552
01:53:25,200 --> 01:53:30,230
Speaker 2: was Brigitte's daughter. They all had suspicions because he told

2553
01:53:30,330 --> 01:53:35,469
Speaker 2: them they met him and would see him once a year,

2554
01:53:35,590 --> 01:53:38,389
Speaker 2: maybe twice a year over the years. But he said

2555
01:53:38,850 --> 01:53:44,809
Speaker 2: his name was... Shit, I won't be able to remember it.

2556
01:53:44,880 --> 01:53:46,820
Speaker 2: I don't have it written down. It was something weird

2557
01:53:46,860 --> 01:53:50,880
Speaker 2: like Carl Kent or something like that. Just a weird

2558
01:53:50,939 --> 01:53:53,900
Speaker 2: fake name. That's the only way they knew their father. Oh,

2559
01:53:54,020 --> 01:53:55,179
Speaker 2: Carew Kent. C-A-R-E-W.

2560
01:53:57,810 --> 01:53:58,870
Speaker 3: Make that shit up, man.

2561
01:53:59,010 --> 01:54:01,550
Speaker 2: It's Karu Kent would show up and be like, it's me,

2562
01:54:01,570 --> 01:54:02,750
Speaker 2: your dad. Merry Christmas.

2563
01:54:02,790 --> 01:54:03,010
Speaker 5: Bye.

2564
01:54:04,810 --> 01:54:10,660
Speaker 2: So Brigitte's daughter finds love letters and photographs, puts it together.

2565
01:54:11,040 --> 01:54:14,140
Speaker 2: They all get their DNA tested and then they find

2566
01:54:14,200 --> 01:54:17,300
Speaker 2: out there it's seven children that he fathered.

2567
01:54:17,320 --> 01:54:18,000
Speaker 3: It was busy.

2568
01:54:18,479 --> 01:54:21,900
Speaker 2: And it goes along with his eugenics thing of, I

2569
01:54:21,979 --> 01:54:24,960
Speaker 2: am the, I am the one that needs to propagate

2570
01:54:25,020 --> 01:54:27,320
Speaker 2: and have tons of kids. So I'm going to go

2571
01:54:27,360 --> 01:54:29,220
Speaker 2: and have all these affairs and just have kids all

2572
01:54:29,280 --> 01:54:29,650
Speaker 2: over the place.

2573
01:54:29,660 --> 01:54:31,730
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to. It's for the fucking greater good.

2574
01:54:31,810 --> 01:54:37,430
Speaker 2: It's for the greater good of fucking Germany. Um, so,

2575
01:54:39,430 --> 01:54:42,070
Speaker 2: so I mean, that's just kind of like an interesting, weird,

2576
01:54:42,150 --> 01:54:45,910
Speaker 2: creepy thing where just like, who is this person? Who

2577
01:54:45,990 --> 01:54:48,480
Speaker 2: is this mystery man that like the world held up

2578
01:54:48,560 --> 01:54:51,620
Speaker 2: as this great human being because he made a solo

2579
01:54:51,640 --> 01:54:57,129
Speaker 2: flight across the Atlantic. Um, the good part about this

2580
01:54:57,210 --> 01:55:01,750
Speaker 2: horrible story that basically rocked the nation and was the

2581
01:55:01,850 --> 01:55:04,550
Speaker 2: hugest story. Like it's all anybody talked about for years

2582
01:55:04,610 --> 01:55:08,650
Speaker 2: and years is that the day after this baby was kidnapped,

2583
01:55:08,950 --> 01:55:12,910
Speaker 2: Congress passed a law making kidnapping a capital offense. So

2584
01:55:12,970 --> 01:55:15,210
Speaker 2: that's when they put it into effect that if you

2585
01:55:15,230 --> 01:55:16,910
Speaker 2: take a person over state.

2586
01:55:16,710 --> 01:55:17,870
Speaker 3: Lines, Oh, right.

2587
01:55:17,930 --> 01:55:19,390
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's a capital offense.

2588
01:55:20,390 --> 01:55:25,160
Speaker 3: Um, And basically that's it. It was and it.

2589
01:55:26,660 --> 01:55:30,270
Speaker 2: Was called it then. And, you know, although remains popular

2590
01:55:30,430 --> 01:55:32,330
Speaker 2: at the time, it was the crime of the century.

2591
01:55:33,120 --> 01:55:34,020
Speaker 3: That's incredible.

2592
01:55:34,540 --> 01:55:38,700
Speaker 4: They never found any, the other two thirds people that

2593
01:55:38,720 --> 01:55:39,340
Speaker 4: it could have been?

2594
01:55:39,620 --> 01:55:42,300
Speaker 2: They're in, if you watch this Nova special, there's a

2595
01:55:42,380 --> 01:55:44,700
Speaker 2: guy on there that, and it reminds me of like

2596
01:55:44,720 --> 01:55:46,440
Speaker 2: a lot of the Black Dahlia stuff where there's a

2597
01:55:46,480 --> 01:55:48,980
Speaker 2: guy on there who's like, my father knew a person

2598
01:55:49,020 --> 01:55:51,570
Speaker 2: and he overheard this conversation and it could have been

2599
01:55:51,590 --> 01:55:52,430
Speaker 2: this guy and it could have.

2600
01:55:52,370 --> 01:55:52,660
Speaker 3: Been this guy.

2601
01:55:52,670 --> 01:55:54,970
Speaker 4: It feels like it would have been that someone related

2602
01:55:55,030 --> 01:55:57,650
Speaker 4: to that person. the, the dude, the one third dude.

2603
01:55:58,050 --> 01:55:58,310
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2604
01:55:58,430 --> 01:56:01,270
Speaker 3: Does he have a brother-in-law? It's always the brother-in-law.

2605
01:56:01,370 --> 01:56:04,110
Speaker 2: Well, because he was this German immigrant, there was other

2606
01:56:04,170 --> 01:56:06,950
Speaker 2: people on the city block that he lived on that

2607
01:56:06,990 --> 01:56:09,530
Speaker 2: were from the same city that he was from in Germany.

2608
01:56:10,290 --> 01:56:13,410
Speaker 2: And so the landlord of this guy who says his

2609
01:56:13,510 --> 01:56:17,980
Speaker 2: father overheard a conversation that that man's landlord was from

2610
01:56:18,020 --> 01:56:18,840
Speaker 2: the same city as.

2611
01:56:19,190 --> 01:56:20,560
Speaker 3: As Hoffman.

2612
01:56:21,120 --> 01:56:24,540
Speaker 2: So the theory, it's very strong theory, but it is

2613
01:56:24,600 --> 01:56:26,920
Speaker 2: just theory. And it kind of goes all over because

2614
01:56:26,940 --> 01:56:30,180
Speaker 2: it's basically this guy's father overheard a conversation where they

2615
01:56:30,200 --> 01:56:32,900
Speaker 2: all talked about Inglewood. They used the word Inglewood and

2616
01:56:32,940 --> 01:56:36,340
Speaker 2: they said the name Bruno and da, da, da, da, da.

2617
01:56:36,360 --> 01:56:39,060
Speaker 2: And then there's pictures and whatever, but it's, it, nothing

2618
01:56:39,100 --> 01:56:42,100
Speaker 2: is conclusive. So I didn't include it. They never found

2619
01:56:42,140 --> 01:56:44,100
Speaker 2: the money, the other money, right? Like no one ever

2620
01:56:44,140 --> 01:56:47,940
Speaker 2: spent it. Well, but there's the one guy that they suspected,

2621
01:56:48,200 --> 01:56:51,470
Speaker 2: one of the two people. that this guy knew and

2622
01:56:51,490 --> 01:56:57,110
Speaker 2: they suspected, took what at the time would have been

2623
01:56:57,450 --> 01:57:01,840
Speaker 2: a $ 70, 000 world cruise with his wife. And there's pictures

2624
01:57:01,880 --> 01:57:05,800
Speaker 2: of him on the cruise. And he came back from

2625
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:14,350
Speaker 2: Europe after Hopman was found guilty. So basically they took Cruz,

2626
01:57:14,370 --> 01:57:16,690
Speaker 2: got the fuck out of Dodge, went around the world

2627
01:57:16,750 --> 01:57:18,450
Speaker 2: on a boat. And then when they heard that they

2628
01:57:18,730 --> 01:57:20,010
Speaker 2: got the guy and they were sending him to the

2629
01:57:20,030 --> 01:57:21,830
Speaker 2: electric chair, they were like, okay, we can go back now.

2630
01:57:21,930 --> 01:57:23,640
Speaker 3: That was him. He's got, I think it was him.

2631
01:57:23,900 --> 01:57:24,100
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2632
01:57:24,860 --> 01:57:25,520
Speaker 3: Wow.

2633
01:57:25,560 --> 01:57:25,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2634
01:57:26,760 --> 01:57:27,740
Speaker 3: That's crazy.

2635
01:57:27,980 --> 01:57:32,320
Speaker 2: It's, but the, it's very sinister and, and definitely unproven,

2636
01:57:32,360 --> 01:57:36,620
Speaker 2: but the idea that he just wanted this not perfect

2637
01:57:36,650 --> 01:57:39,490
Speaker 2: baby out of the house is just so dark.

2638
01:57:39,510 --> 01:57:41,270
Speaker 4: Or maybe what they were going to do is like, take,

2639
01:57:41,670 --> 01:57:46,060
Speaker 4: take the baby out. put him in a facility, something

2640
01:57:46,180 --> 01:57:48,840
Speaker 4: accidentally happened and he died. Maybe they were going to

2641
01:57:48,880 --> 01:57:52,140
Speaker 4: replace him with like an adopted perfect baby that.

2642
01:57:52,060 --> 01:57:53,800
Speaker 3: They were going to say was him.

2643
01:57:53,820 --> 01:57:54,980
Speaker 5: Oh, maybe.

2644
01:57:55,100 --> 01:57:55,460
Speaker 3: You know?

2645
01:57:56,470 --> 01:57:59,190
Speaker 2: Could be. I mean, when you see, there's lots of,

2646
01:57:59,570 --> 01:58:01,530
Speaker 2: they have lots of home video and these black and

2647
01:58:01,550 --> 01:58:03,770
Speaker 2: white videos of this baby. It's not like this baby

2648
01:58:03,830 --> 01:58:08,090
Speaker 2: looks like anything is wrong. But I feel like if

2649
01:58:08,170 --> 01:58:11,720
Speaker 2: he was under this pressure to be the perfect, um,

2650
01:58:12,200 --> 01:58:15,040
Speaker 2: human being and that that's the whole theory of eugenics

2651
01:58:15,100 --> 01:58:18,270
Speaker 2: is like perfection, perfection, then you can't have a baby

2652
01:58:18,310 --> 01:58:22,170
Speaker 2: that has turned in knees, rickets, you know, like is

2653
01:58:22,230 --> 01:58:24,830
Speaker 2: that is even in any way developmentally slow.

2654
01:58:25,790 --> 01:58:28,490
Speaker 4: Maybe the baby that they found that was dead wasn't,

2655
01:58:29,540 --> 01:58:35,100
Speaker 4: charlie maybe they put charlie in a fucking institution killed

2656
01:58:35,140 --> 01:58:37,820
Speaker 4: some other baby to be like nope charlie's dead and

2657
01:58:37,850 --> 01:58:41,150
Speaker 4: then they could like have this sick baby that they visit.

2658
01:58:40,970 --> 01:58:43,730
Speaker 3: Whenever they want maybe that's i think that's it.

2659
01:58:45,310 --> 01:58:47,590
Speaker 2: You've done it i did it you know what i

2660
01:58:47,590 --> 01:58:50,070
Speaker 2: mean though you've acted in you've you've added another twist

2661
01:58:50,130 --> 01:58:53,670
Speaker 2: yes well but that basically they they did it yeah

2662
01:58:54,010 --> 01:58:56,900
Speaker 2: that's even darker because then they're killing a baby right

2663
01:58:57,640 --> 01:59:02,020
Speaker 2: yeah yeah It's, I mean, the whole thing is, it

2664
01:59:02,060 --> 01:59:05,160
Speaker 2: would be nice to have some answers. Let's DNA test

2665
01:59:05,200 --> 01:59:10,450
Speaker 2: that shit. Go on genealogy. Dot net. Test that shit. Right.

2666
01:59:10,610 --> 01:59:11,230
Speaker 3: Get on there.

2667
01:59:11,250 --> 01:59:15,250
Speaker 2: Well, fuck, that was great. Oh, thanks. I love it.

2668
01:59:15,450 --> 01:59:16,190
Speaker 3: I mean, it was fun.

2669
01:59:16,350 --> 01:59:18,070
Speaker 2: It was fun to watch a TV show and then

2670
01:59:18,110 --> 01:59:19,310
Speaker 2: just write down what they say.

2671
01:59:19,830 --> 01:59:21,490
Speaker 3: I gotta give that a shot sometime.

2672
01:59:21,920 --> 01:59:24,200
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm going to get better about not

2673
01:59:24,240 --> 01:59:26,760
Speaker 2: doing that. I remember my friend who had never heard

2674
01:59:26,800 --> 01:59:30,520
Speaker 2: the podcast before. He listened to it. We worked together

2675
01:59:30,540 --> 01:59:33,080
Speaker 2: and we went to work the next day. He goes...

2676
01:59:33,540 --> 01:59:35,480
Speaker 2: You just retold a TV show.

2677
01:59:35,560 --> 01:59:37,720
Speaker 3: And I was like, yeah, I.

2678
01:59:37,640 --> 01:59:40,690
Speaker 2: Do that sometimes. I always hear I have his voice

2679
01:59:40,740 --> 01:59:41,760
Speaker 2: in my head when I sit.

2680
01:59:41,620 --> 01:59:43,430
Speaker 3: Down to do that. But that's all I want to do.

2681
01:59:43,590 --> 01:59:48,430
Speaker 3: We've been quite busy. Listen, look and listen to us always.

2682
01:59:52,460 --> 01:59:55,980
Speaker 5: And we're back, Karen. Any Lindbergh baby kidnapping story updates?

2683
01:59:56,180 --> 01:59:59,340
Speaker 2: There actually are. In 2025, a lawsuit was filed in

2684
01:59:59,380 --> 02:00:02,280
Speaker 2: New Jersey aimed at allowing DNA testing of the stamps

2685
02:00:02,300 --> 02:00:06,100
Speaker 2: and envelopes used by the kidnapper. Under the presumption they

2686
02:00:06,120 --> 02:00:10,160
Speaker 2: would contain the perp's saliva. So the plaintiffs that filed

2687
02:00:10,180 --> 02:00:13,860
Speaker 2: that lawsuit are Jonathan Hagel, a University of Kansas professor,

2688
02:00:14,300 --> 02:00:18,000
Speaker 2: Michelle Downey, a retired school teacher, and Catherine Reed, an

2689
02:00:18,160 --> 02:00:21,480
Speaker 2: author and psychologist. And as of this Rewind record date,

2690
02:00:21,840 --> 02:00:24,840
Speaker 2: The status of this lawsuit is unclear. But there was

2691
02:00:24,880 --> 02:00:27,560
Speaker 2: a previous lawsuit with a similar aim, but it was

2692
02:00:27,600 --> 02:00:30,460
Speaker 2: dismissed by a court because it had, quote, not sufficiently

2693
02:00:30,520 --> 02:00:34,990
Speaker 2: established a public interest in analytic testing, end quote. But

2694
02:00:35,070 --> 02:00:38,690
Speaker 2: hopefully that's something that enough time has passed where that's evolving.

2695
02:00:39,370 --> 02:00:43,610
Speaker 2: And Buried Bones also covered the Lindbergh kidnapping on their podcast,

2696
02:00:44,150 --> 02:00:47,970
Speaker 2: It's an amazing episode. It's entitled An Aviator King's Ransom,

2697
02:00:48,310 --> 02:00:49,550
Speaker 2: and it's from 2022.

2698
02:00:49,530 --> 02:00:51,500
Speaker 5: Man, what if that one got solved?

2699
02:00:51,660 --> 02:00:54,980
Speaker 1: And, like, solved meaning no one thinks that what happened

2700
02:00:55,060 --> 02:00:56,740
Speaker 1: actually happened or did it.

2701
02:00:56,820 --> 02:00:57,379
Speaker 5: Who knows?

2702
02:00:57,680 --> 02:01:01,260
Speaker 2: Right, like the real answers, the real what was going on.

2703
02:01:01,440 --> 02:01:05,010
Speaker 2: There's also three books that you could read about this.

2704
02:01:05,330 --> 02:01:07,110
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a true crime case that has

2705
02:01:07,170 --> 02:01:11,170
Speaker 2: been around, like, this is just early days true crime. Yeah.

2706
02:01:11,720 --> 02:01:15,240
Speaker 2: The first book is The Lindbergh Kidnapping Suspect No. 1,

2707
02:01:15,240 --> 02:01:18,120
Speaker 2: The Man Who Got Away by Lise Perlman. It was

2708
02:01:18,160 --> 02:01:21,440
Speaker 2: published in 2020. Then there's The Little Lindy is Kidnapped,

2709
02:01:21,620 --> 02:01:23,900
Speaker 2: How the Media Covered the Crime of the Century by

2710
02:01:23,940 --> 02:01:27,530
Speaker 2: Thomas Doherty, also from 2020. And The Rise and Fall

2711
02:01:27,550 --> 02:01:31,150
Speaker 2: of Charles Lindbergh, which is written by Candace Fleming. In when?

2712
02:01:31,170 --> 02:01:34,950
Speaker 2: In what year? That's right, 2020. Oh, man. The tension

2713
02:01:34,970 --> 02:01:36,390
Speaker 2: between the three of them.

2714
02:01:38,700 --> 02:01:39,640
Speaker 5: They see each other at.

2715
02:01:39,680 --> 02:01:45,060
Speaker 2: Like, Kirkus Reviews conferences, and there's laser eyes. Yeah.

2716
02:01:45,090 --> 02:01:48,650
Speaker 5: All right, let's get into our fucking hoorays.

2717
02:01:55,250 --> 02:01:58,370
Speaker 2: What's your fucking hooray this week, Georgia? I have two.

2718
02:01:58,390 --> 02:02:01,060
Speaker 3: One of them is that I took Twitter off of

2719
02:02:01,120 --> 02:02:01,780
Speaker 3: my phone.

2720
02:02:01,800 --> 02:02:01,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2721
02:02:03,290 --> 02:02:04,490
Speaker 3: Well, fucking hooray for you.

2722
02:02:04,510 --> 02:02:04,810
Speaker 2: Thank you.

2723
02:02:04,830 --> 02:02:07,000
Speaker 4: It didn't even cross my mind that that was an option.

2724
02:02:07,040 --> 02:02:08,760
Speaker 4: Like I was like, I just can't stop looking and

2725
02:02:08,820 --> 02:02:10,960
Speaker 4: scrolling and seeing this news and bad news. And then

2726
02:02:11,000 --> 02:02:12,940
Speaker 4: when it's just like dumb news, like shit about Kanye,

2727
02:02:12,960 --> 02:02:13,800
Speaker 4: I get angry.

2728
02:02:14,020 --> 02:02:14,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2729
02:02:14,420 --> 02:02:16,120
Speaker 4: Like I just got, and then it was like, someone

2730
02:02:16,160 --> 02:02:18,150
Speaker 4: wrote like, I'm taking Twitter off my phone.

2731
02:02:18,160 --> 02:02:21,450
Speaker 2: And I was like, Oh my God. I didn't even.

2732
02:02:21,270 --> 02:02:23,010
Speaker 4: Realize that that was an option. So I did it

2733
02:02:23,050 --> 02:02:25,060
Speaker 4: and I'm having withdrawals, but I think it's for the best.

2734
02:02:25,150 --> 02:02:28,280
Speaker 2: And then you're missing some quality content for me because

2735
02:02:28,700 --> 02:02:31,520
Speaker 2: I'm procrastinating so much. All I can, all I can

2736
02:02:31,560 --> 02:02:34,760
Speaker 2: do is, is tweet. Cause I'm like sitting there supposed

2737
02:02:34,780 --> 02:02:37,590
Speaker 2: to be turning something in and I'm like, but I

2738
02:02:37,610 --> 02:02:38,470
Speaker 2: have this good idea.

2739
02:02:38,490 --> 02:02:38,810
Speaker 3: Okay.

2740
02:02:38,870 --> 02:02:40,430
Speaker 2: Let me know if anything good comes up.

2741
02:02:40,510 --> 02:02:44,860
Speaker 4: Let me know if there's any quality, uh, Golden State

2742
02:02:44,880 --> 02:02:47,860
Speaker 4: Killer updates I will for sure that's the only place

2743
02:02:47,920 --> 02:02:49,800
Speaker 4: I was getting updates from but then I couldn't stop

2744
02:02:49,820 --> 02:02:52,730
Speaker 4: checking my other one is the TV show Barry that

2745
02:02:53,630 --> 02:02:57,770
Speaker 4: I'm enjoying so much it's so good it's what's his

2746
02:02:57,810 --> 02:03:06,890
Speaker 4: name Barry Bill Hader Barry Bill Hader it's so good

2747
02:03:06,910 --> 02:03:10,880
Speaker 4: and charming and funny and dark I love it Bill

2748
02:03:10,900 --> 02:03:13,940
Speaker 4: Hader plays a hitman who has to pretend he's on

2749
02:03:14,000 --> 02:03:15,980
Speaker 4: a hit menu pretends he's an actor in LA and

2750
02:03:16,000 --> 02:03:17,780
Speaker 4: I wanted to say it earlier but it's basically every

2751
02:03:17,820 --> 02:03:21,580
Speaker 4: conversation we overhear it's like yes it's this tv show

2752
02:03:21,640 --> 02:03:23,260
Speaker 4: in that it's so fucking funny.

2753
02:03:23,160 --> 02:03:25,670
Speaker 2: Yeah I liked I've only seen the first two but

2754
02:03:25,710 --> 02:03:28,589
Speaker 2: I loved it and there's so many good Henry Winkler

2755
02:03:28,610 --> 02:03:29,410
Speaker 2: God bless.

2756
02:03:29,230 --> 02:03:31,210
Speaker 4: His soul so great in that you know I went

2757
02:03:31,250 --> 02:03:33,070
Speaker 4: to camp with his daughter she was in a cat

2758
02:03:33,110 --> 02:03:35,510
Speaker 4: we were in a cabin was she nice yeah yeah

2759
02:03:35,530 --> 02:03:37,470
Speaker 4: everyone wanted to be friends with her because she was

2760
02:03:38,070 --> 02:03:40,720
Speaker 4: the Fonz's daughter yeah that'd be tough she was nice

2761
02:03:40,740 --> 02:03:43,900
Speaker 4: I think she's like a preschool teacher now or something lovely.

2762
02:03:43,920 --> 02:03:46,430
Speaker 2: And you're just like, I'm sure I've already bragged to you,

2763
02:03:46,440 --> 02:03:50,050
Speaker 2: but we, we, when we worked on Hollywood squares, when

2764
02:03:50,070 --> 02:03:52,710
Speaker 2: we wrote for Ellen, we were just like two writers

2765
02:03:52,730 --> 02:03:55,850
Speaker 2: that came with her and he was the EP. And we,

2766
02:03:56,610 --> 02:03:58,490
Speaker 2: when you do stuff like that of like, bring your

2767
02:03:58,510 --> 02:04:00,910
Speaker 2: own writers, there are people who are hired to write

2768
02:04:00,950 --> 02:04:01,850
Speaker 2: for that show that.

2769
02:04:01,730 --> 02:04:02,520
Speaker 3: Do not like it.

2770
02:04:02,530 --> 02:04:05,260
Speaker 2: Cause like who the fuck are you to come in and, um,

2771
02:04:06,430 --> 02:04:07,970
Speaker 2: But everyone was super nice to us, but I was

2772
02:04:08,010 --> 02:04:10,680
Speaker 2: always just like so uncomfortable. And Henry Winkler came and

2773
02:04:10,740 --> 02:04:14,160
Speaker 2: was like, are the Karens in here? And he acted

2774
02:04:14,220 --> 02:04:17,130
Speaker 2: like he did the exact opposite of that. Like he

2775
02:04:17,430 --> 02:04:20,580
Speaker 2: basically came and like pretended like we were special. And

2776
02:04:20,620 --> 02:04:22,850
Speaker 2: I just remember looking at him like, A, did not

2777
02:04:22,890 --> 02:04:25,350
Speaker 2: have to do this. B, no one ever does this.

2778
02:04:25,730 --> 02:04:28,430
Speaker 2: And C, it's like he's the mayor of Hollywood. Like

2779
02:04:28,450 --> 02:04:30,130
Speaker 2: he knows how beloved he is.

2780
02:04:30,340 --> 02:04:31,920
Speaker 4: You know what's so funny is I remember as like

2781
02:04:31,960 --> 02:04:34,760
Speaker 4: a fifth grader when camp was over and we all

2782
02:04:34,780 --> 02:04:37,300
Speaker 4: got taken back to the meeting where the parents would

2783
02:04:37,320 --> 02:04:37,880
Speaker 4: pick everyone up.

2784
02:04:38,280 --> 02:04:40,300
Speaker 3: Like after two weeks of being away, all crying.

2785
02:04:40,920 --> 02:04:43,610
Speaker 4: And then she was like, come meet my dad. And

2786
02:04:43,650 --> 02:04:46,290
Speaker 4: I look up and I'm like, Henry Winkler. And he

2787
02:04:46,790 --> 02:04:49,450
Speaker 4: shook my hand and looked down and be nice to me.

2788
02:04:49,490 --> 02:04:51,250
Speaker 3: Like he was so nice.

2789
02:04:52,070 --> 02:04:56,130
Speaker 2: And he's so fucking funny. He's so good in the show.

2790
02:04:56,230 --> 02:04:58,990
Speaker 2: It's the parts written perfectly for him, but like that

2791
02:04:59,070 --> 02:05:02,030
Speaker 2: intense acting to it's, he's just so good.

2792
02:05:02,050 --> 02:05:02,570
Speaker 3: He's ridiculous.

2793
02:05:02,590 --> 02:05:02,670
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2794
02:05:02,840 --> 02:05:04,690
Speaker 2: It's a really, it's a really good show.

2795
02:05:05,060 --> 02:05:05,280
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2796
02:05:05,300 --> 02:05:05,460
Speaker 1: Okay.

2797
02:05:05,480 --> 02:05:05,840
Speaker 3: What's yours?

2798
02:05:07,170 --> 02:05:10,810
Speaker 2: Um, well, I have to say mine, uh, mine is,

2799
02:05:11,680 --> 02:05:15,420
Speaker 2: I tweeted about this, but I was watching, my friend

2800
02:05:15,440 --> 02:05:18,660
Speaker 2: Bridget told me to watch, um, A Chef's Table Pastry,

2801
02:05:19,060 --> 02:05:21,640
Speaker 2: which is a new season. Right. And I think it's

2802
02:05:21,680 --> 02:05:23,860
Speaker 2: slightly shorter than their normal ones. It seems like a

2803
02:05:23,860 --> 02:05:24,820
Speaker 2: little specialty one.

2804
02:05:24,760 --> 02:05:25,320
Speaker 3: They put out.

2805
02:05:26,260 --> 02:05:31,090
Speaker 2: And the, there's, say there's five, the third or fourth

2806
02:05:31,270 --> 02:05:35,730
Speaker 2: one is this guy in Spain named Jordi Rocha. Yeah.

2807
02:05:36,410 --> 02:05:40,450
Speaker 2: And he basically has been named the top pastry chef

2808
02:05:40,480 --> 02:05:42,460
Speaker 2: in the world a bunch of times. Does he make

2809
02:05:42,500 --> 02:05:43,320
Speaker 2: those beautiful.

2810
02:05:44,150 --> 02:05:47,310
Speaker 4: They look like apples or pears and they're like glistening

2811
02:05:47,350 --> 02:05:48,110
Speaker 4: and gorgeous.

2812
02:05:48,350 --> 02:05:50,030
Speaker 3: And then they crack open and there's stuff inside. And

2813
02:05:50,050 --> 02:05:51,340
Speaker 3: there's like meringue and shit inside.

2814
02:05:51,490 --> 02:05:51,770
Speaker 2: Yes.

2815
02:05:52,020 --> 02:05:56,660
Speaker 3: I follow him on Instagram. Oh, like he's super beautiful. Yeah,

2816
02:05:56,680 --> 02:05:57,460
Speaker 3: but his, I don't know.

2817
02:05:57,500 --> 02:06:00,220
Speaker 4: I didn't see him, but his pastries are gorgeous.

2818
02:06:00,380 --> 02:06:01,620
Speaker 3: No, they're, it's art.

2819
02:06:01,740 --> 02:06:04,520
Speaker 2: It's not, it's, it doesn't seem like a dessert in any,

2820
02:06:04,580 --> 02:06:06,650
Speaker 2: it doesn't look like you're supposed to eat it at all.

2821
02:06:06,690 --> 02:06:06,870
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2822
02:06:07,370 --> 02:06:10,010
Speaker 2: And the first one... So he's super hot.

2823
02:06:10,410 --> 02:06:13,050
Speaker 3: He's... Well, he's just... It's the thing. It's a thing

2824
02:06:13,090 --> 02:06:13,390
Speaker 3: I have.

2825
02:06:13,440 --> 02:06:13,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2826
02:06:13,690 --> 02:06:18,380
Speaker 2: He's very swarthy with a big patrician nose.

2827
02:06:18,940 --> 02:06:19,580
Speaker 3: And he.

2828
02:06:20,120 --> 02:06:20,540
Speaker 2: But like.

2829
02:06:20,890 --> 02:06:22,110
Speaker 3: But very soft eyes.

2830
02:06:22,130 --> 02:06:23,810
Speaker 5: And he....

2831
02:06:24,300 --> 02:06:28,040
Speaker 2: Talks about, so his older brothers own the restaurant. His

2832
02:06:29,000 --> 02:06:31,640
Speaker 2: one older brother's a sommelier, his older brother's the head chef.

2833
02:06:32,000 --> 02:06:35,730
Speaker 2: It's this Michelin, it was a one-star Michelin rated restaurant already.

2834
02:06:36,230 --> 02:06:37,810
Speaker 2: And they tried to get him to work there. He's

2835
02:06:37,810 --> 02:06:42,290
Speaker 2: 12 years younger than them. So they were like, you

2836
02:06:42,330 --> 02:06:43,710
Speaker 2: have to come and be the waiter. Well, he was

2837
02:06:43,750 --> 02:06:45,530
Speaker 2: like a party guy and he was just like, whatever,

2838
02:06:45,570 --> 02:06:48,110
Speaker 2: I don't care. And he never really like caught on.

2839
02:06:48,190 --> 02:06:49,930
Speaker 2: And then he finally asked to get moved into the

2840
02:06:49,970 --> 02:06:53,310
Speaker 2: kitchen because Because the waiters worked so late and worked

2841
02:06:53,350 --> 02:06:54,190
Speaker 2: so hard, he didn't.

2842
02:06:54,010 --> 02:06:54,450
Speaker 3: Want to do it.

2843
02:06:54,630 --> 02:06:56,510
Speaker 2: So he's like, I'll be in the kitchen. And he

2844
02:06:56,550 --> 02:06:58,570
Speaker 2: was just kind of like messing around the kitchen, kind

2845
02:06:58,590 --> 02:07:02,610
Speaker 2: of sucking. And then he got moved into the pastry

2846
02:07:02,650 --> 02:07:05,230
Speaker 2: section because they had this, oh shoot, I'm not going

2847
02:07:05,250 --> 02:07:07,490
Speaker 2: to be able to remember his name, but like really

2848
02:07:07,530 --> 02:07:11,540
Speaker 2: world famous pastry chef who was like, here, have him

2849
02:07:11,660 --> 02:07:14,300
Speaker 2: be in my department. Then he's not being like hounded

2850
02:07:14,340 --> 02:07:16,300
Speaker 2: by his brothers all the time like he always is.

2851
02:07:16,810 --> 02:07:18,390
Speaker 2: And he can come and I'll teach him how to

2852
02:07:18,430 --> 02:07:22,190
Speaker 2: do pastry. Well, then, and they show this thing he makes.

2853
02:07:22,280 --> 02:07:26,080
Speaker 2: It's called the city that they're, that this restaurant is

2854
02:07:26,120 --> 02:07:29,460
Speaker 2: in is like, it's called, I'll never remember how to

2855
02:07:29,500 --> 02:07:31,580
Speaker 2: say it. But it's like, I thought it was, I

2856
02:07:31,600 --> 02:07:34,200
Speaker 2: thought we were in Italy. The first two times I

2857
02:07:34,240 --> 02:07:36,290
Speaker 2: watched it, I assumed we were in Italy because it

2858
02:07:36,330 --> 02:07:39,030
Speaker 2: all looked like Italy and felt like Italy. But it's Spain.

2859
02:07:39,770 --> 02:07:41,930
Speaker 2: And say it's like, it's Genoa or something like that.

2860
02:07:42,920 --> 02:07:45,300
Speaker 2: And the first thing they show that he made is

2861
02:07:45,340 --> 02:07:48,560
Speaker 2: called the Flowers of Genoa. And he makes, he takes

2862
02:07:48,600 --> 02:07:52,520
Speaker 2: this strip of what looks like fruit roll up and

2863
02:07:52,560 --> 02:07:55,290
Speaker 2: he cuts it out. It's the skyline of their city.

2864
02:07:56,050 --> 02:07:58,910
Speaker 2: And then he makes it, it's 3D. So he's having

2865
02:07:59,050 --> 02:08:01,280
Speaker 2: part of it stand up. up but then he paints

2866
02:08:01,360 --> 02:08:04,640
Speaker 2: the plate underneath so that when you look at it

2867
02:08:04,800 --> 02:08:07,020
Speaker 2: oh my god it looks like this 3d trick of

2868
02:08:07,440 --> 02:08:11,630
Speaker 2: the eye where there's flowers There's these little things.

2869
02:08:11,710 --> 02:08:12,700
Speaker 3: You have to see it.

2870
02:08:13,210 --> 02:08:15,670
Speaker 2: When I was watching it, they reveal, they do the

2871
02:08:15,710 --> 02:08:17,310
Speaker 2: thing where they show him making it. And then it

2872
02:08:17,350 --> 02:08:19,900
Speaker 2: just says Flowers of Jeannot or whatever the name of

2873
02:08:19,920 --> 02:08:22,720
Speaker 2: the city is. And I, on the couch, went, oh,

2874
02:08:22,740 --> 02:08:27,240
Speaker 2: my God. Like, it's that incredible looking. And then he's like,

2875
02:08:27,650 --> 02:08:29,170
Speaker 2: he's talking in it about.

2876
02:08:30,050 --> 02:08:31,210
Speaker 3: how his brother he.

2877
02:08:31,170 --> 02:08:33,310
Speaker 2: Had a really big nose growing up and his brothers

2878
02:08:33,330 --> 02:08:35,090
Speaker 2: would always make the joke of like calling him and

2879
02:08:35,110 --> 02:08:36,830
Speaker 2: then he would turn his head and everyone would duck

2880
02:08:37,470 --> 02:08:40,090
Speaker 2: and it's all this the man is beautiful yeah and

2881
02:08:40,130 --> 02:08:42,510
Speaker 2: you can tell he doesn't know that or understand it

2882
02:08:43,010 --> 02:08:45,110
Speaker 2: and it's that thing you just go like it's that's

2883
02:08:45,130 --> 02:08:48,110
Speaker 2: how it is with everybody everybody thinks yeah these horrible

2884
02:08:48,180 --> 02:08:52,180
Speaker 2: things about themselves because of their asshole bullies and siblings

2885
02:08:52,220 --> 02:08:56,900
Speaker 2: or whatever And he's like this magical artist. So he

2886
02:08:56,940 --> 02:08:59,930
Speaker 2: based his desserts basically made this restaurant go from like

2887
02:09:00,010 --> 02:09:02,910
Speaker 2: a one star Michelin, which is a huge accomplishment anyway,

2888
02:09:03,170 --> 02:09:08,400
Speaker 2: to a three star Michelin rated restaurant where it's just incredible.

2889
02:09:08,420 --> 02:09:10,220
Speaker 2: I'm telling you the whole episode and I don't need to.

2890
02:09:10,540 --> 02:09:11,010
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love it.

2891
02:09:11,020 --> 02:09:12,140
Speaker 2: I'm going to have a ton of coffee.

2892
02:09:12,540 --> 02:09:16,460
Speaker 3: I just love him. I love like the idea that he, he.

2893
02:09:16,360 --> 02:09:18,590
Speaker 2: Didn't even know that that's what he wanted to do

2894
02:09:18,670 --> 02:09:20,650
Speaker 2: or that it wasn't like he was trained.

2895
02:09:20,450 --> 02:09:22,250
Speaker 3: For it like all his life.

2896
02:09:22,450 --> 02:09:22,730
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2897
02:09:22,850 --> 02:09:25,760
Speaker 2: He like discovered it and is so good at it.

2898
02:09:25,770 --> 02:09:26,940
Speaker 1: I love it.

2899
02:09:27,370 --> 02:09:27,920
Speaker 2: I love it.

2900
02:09:27,930 --> 02:09:28,550
Speaker 3: I'm going to watch it.

2901
02:09:28,810 --> 02:09:30,600
Speaker 2: I love him. Also, he whispers the whole time, which

2902
02:09:31,200 --> 02:09:35,480
Speaker 2: is kind of my jam. Anyway, a chef's table is always,

2903
02:09:35,500 --> 02:09:38,420
Speaker 2: it's just one of the best made television shows there is. Okay.

2904
02:09:38,440 --> 02:09:39,440
Speaker 3: We're going to, I'm going to watch it.

2905
02:09:39,660 --> 02:09:39,880
Speaker 5: Okay.

2906
02:09:40,080 --> 02:09:41,340
Speaker 2: Yay. That's it. Right. Fucking hooray.

2907
02:09:45,330 --> 02:09:46,250
Speaker 5: Okay, we're back.

2908
02:09:46,830 --> 02:09:50,700
Speaker 2: And we have fucking hooray updates. I love it. Oh, yeah.

2909
02:09:50,740 --> 02:09:54,620
Speaker 1: Barry ran for four seasons and concluded in May of 2023.

2910
02:09:54,620 --> 02:09:57,380
Speaker 5: Man, I was really disappointed with that last episode.

2911
02:09:57,840 --> 02:09:58,020
Speaker 2: Oh.

2912
02:09:58,460 --> 02:10:01,660
Speaker 1: Now, referring up a way that I can say it, like, oof,

2913
02:10:01,940 --> 02:10:05,710
Speaker 1: I don't know. The series received 44 Emmy nominations, and

2914
02:10:05,750 --> 02:10:09,190
Speaker 1: both Hayter and Henry Winkler won Emmys for their performances.

2915
02:10:09,210 --> 02:10:10,490
Speaker 3: Yeah, deserved.

2916
02:10:10,710 --> 02:10:14,210
Speaker 1: Hey, my old camp buddy, Zoe Winkler-Rinus, is no longer

2917
02:10:14,250 --> 02:10:18,570
Speaker 1: a preschool teacher. In 2018, she co-founded This Is About Humanity,

2918
02:10:18,720 --> 02:10:22,720
Speaker 1: a nonprofit supporting separated and reunified families and children at

2919
02:10:22,760 --> 02:10:24,040
Speaker 1: the U.S.-Mexican border.

2920
02:10:24,380 --> 02:10:24,680
Speaker 2: Wow.

2921
02:10:24,760 --> 02:10:27,840
Speaker 5: She's a really good person, you know, one of those.

2922
02:10:27,860 --> 02:10:31,540
Speaker 2: That's incredible. We need to put a little post-it note

2923
02:10:31,620 --> 02:10:33,780
Speaker 2: on that This Is About Humanity nonprofit.

2924
02:10:33,820 --> 02:10:34,280
Speaker 4: Totally.

2925
02:10:34,440 --> 02:10:38,110
Speaker 2: That's amazing. Yeah. Oh, and also, so the pastry chef

2926
02:10:38,150 --> 02:10:40,890
Speaker 2: I was talking about, Jordi Rocha, from that episode of

2927
02:10:40,950 --> 02:10:45,860
Speaker 2: Chef's Table— had developed a neurological voice disorder called dystonia.

2928
02:10:45,880 --> 02:10:50,080
Speaker 2: He eventually lost most of his ability to speak. And

2929
02:10:50,120 --> 02:10:53,560
Speaker 2: then after years of treatment, he announced in 2023 that

2930
02:10:53,600 --> 02:10:56,080
Speaker 2: he had recovered his voice and he could read stories

2931
02:10:56,160 --> 02:11:00,270
Speaker 2: aloud to his young daughter. Oh, that's beautiful. I love him.

2932
02:11:00,770 --> 02:11:04,410
Speaker 2: I love him. The restaurant that he and his brothers

2933
02:11:05,290 --> 02:11:08,790
Speaker 2: work at and run still holds three Michelin stars in 2026.

2934
02:11:08,790 --> 02:11:12,850
Speaker 2: So it's been like years since. It's also the restaurant's

2935
02:11:13,050 --> 02:11:17,530
Speaker 2: 40th anniversary this year. So congratulations to El Celer de

2936
02:11:17,590 --> 02:11:20,410
Speaker 2: Can Roca. If we ever go to Spain, maybe we

2937
02:11:20,440 --> 02:11:20,910
Speaker 2: can go there.

2938
02:11:21,180 --> 02:11:21,800
Speaker 5: Hell yeah.

2939
02:11:22,020 --> 02:11:25,700
Speaker 2: Okay, so this episode was originally entitled Fingers Everywhere, of course.

2940
02:11:26,760 --> 02:11:28,480
Speaker 2: But if we were naming it today, we have lots

2941
02:11:28,540 --> 02:11:29,780
Speaker 2: of great choices.

2942
02:11:30,440 --> 02:11:33,920
Speaker 5: Blur Glories. Blur Glories.

2943
02:11:34,140 --> 02:11:34,700
Speaker 3: For sure.

2944
02:11:34,740 --> 02:11:36,850
Speaker 5: It's got to be Blur Glories. Blur Glories.

2945
02:11:36,930 --> 02:11:44,510
Speaker 2: That is perfection right there. Three bins, 17 actors. Loose cursive.

2946
02:11:44,710 --> 02:11:45,910
Speaker 2: That's a nice classic title.

2947
02:11:46,050 --> 02:11:46,970
Speaker 5: That's a good band name.

2948
02:11:47,270 --> 02:11:47,410
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2949
02:11:47,430 --> 02:11:51,260
Speaker 5: For sure. True. A Glorious Time for Liars. Mrs.

2950
02:11:51,300 --> 02:11:54,720
Speaker 2: Sally Holes. There's an embarrassment of riches here. Yep.

2951
02:11:55,930 --> 02:11:56,370
Speaker 5: All right.

2952
02:11:56,650 --> 02:11:59,790
Speaker 2: Well, and with that, that's this week's episode of Rewind.

2953
02:11:59,970 --> 02:12:01,710
Speaker 5: Let's go say goodbye from 2018.

2954
02:12:01,710 --> 02:12:08,980
Speaker 4: Go to MyFavoriteMurder.com for whatever. I don't know, if you

2955
02:12:09,020 --> 02:12:09,540
Speaker 4: need something.

2956
02:12:09,580 --> 02:12:10,540
Speaker 5: For your needs. That's right.

2957
02:12:12,240 --> 02:12:17,460
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. And stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Goodbye. Elvis,

2958
02:12:17,480 --> 02:12:20,720
Speaker 2: you want a cookie? Nice. Bye.