Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing,
Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policymakers and performers, to
Speaker 1: hear their stories, What inspires their creations, what decisions change
Speaker 1: their careers, what relationships influenced their work. A new book
Speaker 1: called Dating Tips for the Unemployed follows its hero Irish Smiles,
Speaker 1: as she haplessly meanders through New York City looking for
Speaker 1: love and work, and then finding darkly humorous ways to
Speaker 1: sabotage that love and work. The book's author is also
Speaker 1: named Irish Smiles. She's earned her reputation as a wickedly
Speaker 1: funny chronicler of disaffection, family dysfunction, and self loathing. Smiles
Speaker 1: was precocious from a very early age, with highbrow literary tastes.
Speaker 1: In the fifth grade, although she found her love for
Speaker 1: the classics via an unexpected inspiration. There were these cartoons
Speaker 1: of Mr Magoo and it was like Mr Magoo does
Speaker 1: the Classics. And there was one adaptation of Moby Dick
Speaker 1: where Mr Magoo plays Ishmael, the lone survivor of the Peaquad,
Speaker 1: who in this case is is seventy year old man
Speaker 1: got blind. And this blind deaf millionaire. He's the only one.
Speaker 1: He's the only one who survives. Anyway, I was so
Speaker 1: taken with it. I was in fifth grade. So I
Speaker 1: went to the library and got the book and I
Speaker 1: was trying to read that, and then my um my
Speaker 1: school teacher saw the book on my desk and started
Speaker 1: laughing at me, which I thought there was a gentler
Speaker 1: way to suggest that maybe it was a bit advanced.
Speaker 1: But I showed him where did you grow up? With
Speaker 1: town in di Cell's Long Island, So that was very
Speaker 1: was a very wooded back then. Because you said you'd
Speaker 1: like to quote go around and climb trees, It wasn't
Speaker 1: really that wooded, but I found the trees and those
Speaker 1: I climbed Um, all three trees that block, you climbed them.
Speaker 1: It was somewhat I mean, there were trees around. It
Speaker 1: was a suburb Um but also Dix Hills. Interesting it
Speaker 1: is where John Coltrane went to die. Um. I found
Speaker 1: that out recently. I'm not sure why he went to
Speaker 1: the no but also and also it's near Um. Speaking
Speaker 1: of literature, I grew up on Ibsen Court, which all
Speaker 1: the streets on my block were named after authors, but
Speaker 1: no one knew, because I think the planners of the
Speaker 1: town had these like high hopes for the people who
Speaker 1: would move in, and instead it was just all of us,
Speaker 1: and it was more mall culture. So um, they thought
Speaker 1: it would be like a bunch of literary right. So,
Speaker 1: for example, I grew up near the Walt Whitman Mall
Speaker 1: because Walt Whitman's birthplaces in Melville. But no one knew
Speaker 1: that Walt Whitman was a poet. So when it came
Speaker 1: time to learn about Walt Whitman in in high school,
Speaker 1: everyone was like, Oh, this guy is named after our mall,
Speaker 1: he must not be that bad. Your parents super brainiac people,
Speaker 1: are they like reading all the time and playing opera
Speaker 1: in the house. And you've been a very culture cultural No, um, no,
Speaker 1: culture culture. No, actually that's not true. Well, my parents
Speaker 1: were working so much when I was growing up. You
Speaker 1: have siblings. I have two older brothers, so you have
Speaker 1: two older brothers and than you. Yes, but my father
Speaker 1: was a big reader and so but we didn't have
Speaker 1: any books in the house because why buy them when
Speaker 1: you could borrow them from the library. So in the
Speaker 1: summertime we would go to the library and like get
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of books on long loan, and then
Speaker 1: we would take them with us to Greece, where my
Speaker 1: mother is from, and read them over there and get
Speaker 1: them ruined on the beach, which always excited me because
Speaker 1: I thought I'm going to bring the books. I brought
Speaker 1: the books back ruined, but I thought I was bringing
Speaker 1: them back with the secret history. And how lucky for
Speaker 1: someone else that happened after they've been all over the world.
Speaker 1: This ordinary water stains on this book some Greece. Now,
Speaker 1: so your own connection which lives on now? Correct? You?
Speaker 1: You you live in Greece part time? Well, I really
Speaker 1: just say that to make myself sound more interesting. How
Speaker 1: much of what you say is just to make you
Speaker 1: sound we're interesting? How much of it is Factum? Very
Speaker 1: little of what I say is to make myself sound
Speaker 1: more interesting. But some of what I write is to
Speaker 1: make myself sound more interesting. So I never would have
Speaker 1: said I live in Greece for part of the time. Um,
Speaker 1: But I did write that in my bio to give
Speaker 1: myself a little extra glamour. Okay, I lived there like
Speaker 1: three or four months of the year. You do, now, Yeah,
Speaker 1: except for right that that right now, I'm here. Now,
Speaker 1: what did your dad do? Um? He well, growing up,
Speaker 1: my parents um had a party store. But did they
Speaker 1: really Yeah? Yeah, I grew up with all sorts of
Speaker 1: I mean I thought that that's what they were into,
Speaker 1: so I really embraced that hard and was really into
Speaker 1: partying for a long time. But it turns out it
Speaker 1: was just like they got into it accidentally. They're just
Speaker 1: you know, business people, so you're doing like a kid's
Speaker 1: party store. Were like they'd sell party supplies and novelty items.
Speaker 1: So like I grew up, there's yeah, a lot of
Speaker 1: would be cushions around my house, like tons. Um, we've
Speaker 1: only recently gotten through all of them, you know. Uh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't have a lot of Like my parents weren't
Speaker 1: into material objects, so I didn't have which is important
Speaker 1: in suburban Long Island. I didn't have like the best clothes,
Speaker 1: but like on Halloween, I was the best dressed. But
Speaker 1: the only every other year was like a nightmare for me.
Speaker 1: I mean every other time of year, all the kids
Speaker 1: would you know, tease me, but on Halloween, I was
Speaker 1: like I had everything. You're a goddess. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: want to see. Were you close to your parents? But
Speaker 1: you think your parents understood you. Did they cultivate sides
Speaker 1: of you that are have kind of evolved Now you're writing.
Speaker 1: Did you show your parents you're writing and did you
Speaker 1: share with them stuff you wrote? Um? No, Well then
Speaker 1: I was. I was always writing a journal, and my
Speaker 1: father asked me once if he could, if he could
Speaker 1: read what I was writing. And so I said, okay,
Speaker 1: but after I die, because you wrote I really want
Speaker 1: to kill my father. It was just that's how it's done.
Speaker 1: You know my posthumous papers, You don't. You don't publish
Speaker 1: your your journal before you die. Although I have published
Speaker 1: a selection of my journal in my upcoming book. I
Speaker 1: just slipped it in there just to promote it. But
Speaker 1: you wrote a journal and you didn't share it with anybody. No,
Speaker 1: that was the whole you know, the whole point of it, um,
Speaker 1: and that it would be published posthumously. But I'm not
Speaker 1: sure about that anymore. I mean, that was my idea
Speaker 1: when I took it up in fourth grade. But you know,
Speaker 1: my legacy as every fourth grader should be concerned with.
Speaker 1: But in retrospect, I'm not sure it's such a I've
Speaker 1: been looking over the pages and I'm not I'm not
Speaker 1: sure if I actually am going to publish them after
Speaker 1: I die, I might have to destroy them. You started
Speaker 1: writing that when you were how old? Fourth grade? I think?
Speaker 1: What kinds of things did you write in fourth grade? Um? Well,
Speaker 1: that's you'll just have to wait. Give us just a
Speaker 1: vague notion of what you vote. Was it all about,
Speaker 1: like you know, today I walked home from school, it
Speaker 1: was cold or was it? Was it beyond that? Was it? Like? Well?
Speaker 1: It changed? So there were sometimes there were crushes, a
Speaker 1: lot of crushes, um, I think, which you might think
Speaker 1: sounds out a lescent, But that's what the romantic poets
Speaker 1: were doing. So there's a long tradition of that sort
Speaker 1: of thing, um, you know. And then I was trying
Speaker 1: to work on my my descriptions for a while, so
Speaker 1: I would describe water and trees, how many patients. Mostly
Speaker 1: it's the good stuff we need to add down. It's volumes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think I'm actually gonna publish
Speaker 1: it any anymore. That was the idea then, though. But
Speaker 1: one time I had when I first came out of
Speaker 1: college and I had started, I had it I wanted
Speaker 1: to be a writer, and so I had written this thing,
Speaker 1: and I had this idea. I told my parents, you know,
Speaker 1: instead of getting a job, I'm going to be a
Speaker 1: columnist because that's really easy. No, it's just what you said,
Speaker 1: what you say, and what's real or no, I mean
Speaker 1: that's I was at the point where I thought, you
Speaker 1: just want to be something and then you do it.
Speaker 1: Um So, so I had read them this thing that
Speaker 1: I had written. I mean, I thought it was funny,
Speaker 1: but their faces kind of just fell because it was
Speaker 1: really depressing. It turns out anyway, the point is, don't
Speaker 1: show your work to your parents. They won't get it
Speaker 1: because they just look at it to sort of like
Speaker 1: figure out what's wrong with you, you know, like some
Speaker 1: kind of Rosetta stone, to like where they failed, rather
Speaker 1: than seeing its literary merit, Like, you know, where they
Speaker 1: failed is pretty much where my writing succeeds, I think.
Speaker 1: And neither of them writers ever. Well, my father is creative,
Speaker 1: so he's he used to write and to do different.
Speaker 1: He has a sort of artistic temperament. When is your
Speaker 1: writing change beyond the journal that we're never going to
Speaker 1: be reading. Um well, I guess I didn't really begin
Speaker 1: writing properly until I was around twenty eight or twenty nine.
Speaker 1: I'm and I was writing before that and fancied myself
Speaker 1: a writer, but I didn't really become I was kind
Speaker 1: of more of a dilettante um. And what changed were
Speaker 1: we in the gap between ten and twenty eight? What
Speaker 1: were you doing? You went to college for what? Oh?
Speaker 1: I went to UM, I went to n y U
Speaker 1: to study acting. Um. What were your feelings about that? Oh?
Speaker 1: It was you know, I wanted to be an actress,
Speaker 1: but there was a lot of time there. I missed academics.
Speaker 1: You know, at especially at n y U, it's a
Speaker 1: conservatory program, so it's a lot of money to be
Speaker 1: pretending to be in a large body of water or
Speaker 1: holding a coffee cup for like hours and hours everything.
Speaker 1: That's exactly the two analogies I always mentioned. People, I say,
Speaker 1: you're hip deep in some viscous substance, and now let's
Speaker 1: change the viscosity and change and change. And then everybody
Speaker 1: wore black clothes and smoked and drank a lot of coffee.
Speaker 1: I did that for two years, principally because studio. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was in the Strasburg was I really So that's
Speaker 1: why you say hip deep and avy and drinking coffee. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I went to. Who are your teachers? Ms?
Speaker 1: Sandr Marsha No, yes, yes, Jeff he was my teacher.
Speaker 1: Who yes, Yeah, I mean that was that was I
Speaker 1: I enjoyed it. I just um, I just wanted to
Speaker 1: study more things while I was in school, and then
Speaker 1: I kind of got away from it. I think it
Speaker 1: was a very good thing because I guess as an
Speaker 1: actor you have to audition a lot, and I don't
Speaker 1: think you know, I guess that's your real job, not
Speaker 1: actually acting, and for most people, a few people actually
Speaker 1: have the opportunity. I think that's that that's that's potentially right.
Speaker 1: And I also think that the job is really what
Speaker 1: do you do with your stuff when you're not acting? Yeah.
Speaker 1: I always say to people, the task is to find
Speaker 1: out how much you like acting, because you're going to
Speaker 1: get to do so little of it. So what I
Speaker 1: found out when I was at acting school and why
Speaker 1: I stayed with it for two years, is I really
Speaker 1: I had discovered the nightlife in New York City, and
Speaker 1: I had never had a social life in high school
Speaker 1: because I had so many you know, my god, you're
Speaker 1: my doppel gang or keep going, Really, what happened to me?
Speaker 1: I'm in New York. I got a couple of bucks
Speaker 1: in my pocket. My what's party? Yeah? Well it was wasted.
Speaker 1: It was extraordinary. And I mean as a as a
Speaker 1: as a young woman in New York City, you're really
Speaker 1: sort of taken up. And I was weird in high school,
Speaker 1: you know, because I was really too enthusiastic. I was
Speaker 1: involved in all of these extracurricular activitis. And I was
Speaker 1: in the I founded the debate club with one other
Speaker 1: with one other student. He was the president because he
Speaker 1: was a senior, and I was the vice president because
Speaker 1: I was a freshman, and we were the only members.
Speaker 1: That was the club for independent thought. There was the
Speaker 1: drama club, of course, and then I was president of
Speaker 1: my class and um whils. I was in the I
Speaker 1: was in the kick line, the dance team, the swim team.
Speaker 1: I was in running. But then my knees gave out,
Speaker 1: so I was just really busy all the time. Um.
Speaker 1: But then when I came to college, it was like
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you don't have to do anything.
Speaker 1: You don't you barely have to go to class. There's
Speaker 1: no required of you. Yeah, so I was like oh
Speaker 1: now I can. Just so the real work was at night,
Speaker 1: you know, going out, being out until like five in
Speaker 1: the morning, and um at that time, let's see, there
Speaker 1: was a remember the first time I went to a
Speaker 1: nightclub called Chaos, and it was like the world broke open.
Speaker 1: And and the thing is I was so weird in
Speaker 1: high school. But then all of these men they thought
Speaker 1: I was so sophisticated and interesting. That's what they said.
Speaker 1: I understand, you know, and they were like, you don't
Speaker 1: really you don't seem eighteen. I thought for sure you
Speaker 1: were twenty one. I thought this was that meant I
Speaker 1: was sophisticated. They were just saying, like, I thought you
Speaker 1: were like legal and on the level that I could
Speaker 1: feed you. And I wasn't get in trouble as I'm
Speaker 1: passing you this Manhattan. Yeah, when you stopped going to
Speaker 1: the drama program and you transferred to Gallatin correct and
Speaker 1: when you transferred to Galaton, you study philosophy and literature
Speaker 1: sort of, Yeah, yeah, that's what did they call it
Speaker 1: a Gallaton? They call it individualized studies. So basically you
Speaker 1: could just string together, yeah, would be as many books
Speaker 1: as possible. And then and then when you left in
Speaker 1: your heart. You left acting. You did not only leave
Speaker 1: the acting program. You decided I'm not going to be
Speaker 1: an actress. Did not do that. I want, I figured
Speaker 1: I would be an actress after after college, but I
Speaker 1: just didn't need to do that. Yeah, I could do
Speaker 1: that later, But then the further I got from them,
Speaker 1: she went two years to uh Gallaton and you were
Speaker 1: studying independent thought? Were you writing then? I was? I
Speaker 1: was writing poetry. But you but you discount that and say,
Speaker 1: no serious writing until Why No, I was writing somewhat seriously,
Speaker 1: but I mean I wasn't writing with the kind of
Speaker 1: rigor to really put together a body of work. You know,
Speaker 1: I was dabbling or calling myself a writer, But I mean,
Speaker 1: you really need to put in many many hours, well
Speaker 1: hours every day to be a writer consistently. Um. So
Speaker 1: before that, I just did a lot of drinking and
Speaker 1: talking about writing and then you know, a little writing.
Speaker 1: And when you say you did a lot of drinking,
Speaker 1: was that something that you were doing um with groups
Speaker 1: of people with friends and it was all social and
Speaker 1: carefree and reckless. Or were you like going home and
Speaker 1: cracking open a bottle of old Smuggler and having that
Speaker 1: at four in the morning by yourself or both? Um? Yeah, both.
Speaker 1: I mean I guess when I first started drinking, I
Speaker 1: actually started drinking. Um, I mean yeah, I guess. There
Speaker 1: were a few times where I drank alone, mainly because
Speaker 1: I wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing it
Speaker 1: out of pure pressure. Do I really enjoy this? It
Speaker 1: turns out I did. I don't need you. Yeah, But
Speaker 1: I mean it was both social and you know, and
Speaker 1: then eventually it's just it's great all the time. And
Speaker 1: were you crushing on these men that were trying to
Speaker 1: buy these Manhattan's when you were trying to figure out
Speaker 1: if you were really twenty one years old? Um? Some
Speaker 1: of them I liked. I guess sometimes I just like
Speaker 1: that they liked me. You know, it's always you wanted
Speaker 1: to be adored. Yeah, it doesn't everyone two years at Gallaton.
Speaker 1: So you're done after four years and you leave college
Speaker 1: and you say you want to what. Well, I wanted
Speaker 1: to be a writer obviously at that point. I mean
Speaker 1: I always do that. I always wanted to actress actings
Speaker 1: over No, I still wanted to be an actor, I mean,
Speaker 1: and I had thought maybe I'd be a movie star
Speaker 1: to support my writing, you know, reasonable stuff. There you
Speaker 1: go again and UM and then I then I had
Speaker 1: an idea to maybe be um a business mogul to
Speaker 1: support my acting, which would support the writing. UM, so
Speaker 1: human rights were it was all business mogul movie star. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well I actually, I mean I did. I was a teacher.
Speaker 1: I talked, I so so, but but I didn't do
Speaker 1: it for any good reason. I mean I had I
Speaker 1: was teaching with Teach for America teachers and teaching fellows
Speaker 1: at a at at a troubled school in the South Bronx.
Speaker 1: How long did you do that? Um? I did it
Speaker 1: for a year and then it was the school was
Speaker 1: taken over by the state, so they got rid of everyone,
Speaker 1: and then I went to UM. Then I went to
Speaker 1: a different school. How many years total teaching to to
Speaker 1: to that? I was teaching middle school? So you took
Speaker 1: two years to teach for no good reason? Well, because
Speaker 1: I think because I needed a job. I mean that
Speaker 1: I didn't have any good intentions that I was going
Speaker 1: to save anyone. But I think this is why I
Speaker 1: lasted at the at this public school, because all of
Speaker 1: the Teach for America fellows quit within a month because
Speaker 1: you know, they were being threatened and things like that.
Speaker 1: So were they being threatened by the students. Yes, both
Speaker 1: of the eventually ended up having to teach Jim too,
Speaker 1: because both of the gym teachers by the end of
Speaker 1: the year were jumped. It was a very rough school
Speaker 1: for your assaulted at all. No, but I was often
Speaker 1: sore from breaking up fights. What was it in your
Speaker 1: in your mind that I thought you thought you were
Speaker 1: you were born to referee fights among middle school children
Speaker 1: in the Bronx. Well, I just needed I mean, I
Speaker 1: just have this image of you being like, you know,
Speaker 1: here here now enough of that, and you're like stepping
Speaker 1: in between like somebody with a broken bottle and a chair. No, actually,
Speaker 1: one time someone did have a chair over another another
Speaker 1: kid's head. That wasn't Actually, that wasn't one time. How
Speaker 1: many fights did you break up during your two year career? Oh?
Speaker 1: It was multiple times a day, right, and then ended
Speaker 1: after two years? Why? Well, in order for me to
Speaker 1: escape to graduate school and you went to graduate school
Speaker 1: were Um? I went to City College to study writing
Speaker 1: for how long? Um? I tried to stretch that out
Speaker 1: as long as possible. Again, I mean that's why I say,
Speaker 1: first of all, The truth is, graduate school is most
Speaker 1: of the time, unless someone's becoming a doctor, it's pretty
Speaker 1: much a shelter for for kids who just don't want
Speaker 1: to grow up. Yeah, And I mean that's why I
Speaker 1: had even considered a PhD, because I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna make this last forever. Um. But so I
Speaker 1: was there for a few years. I was also teaching
Speaker 1: in the I was teaching undergraduate humanities and creative writing
Speaker 1: at the same time. And all the time you're doing this,
Speaker 1: what's funny to you, what's entertaining to you, what's humored
Speaker 1: to you? What are you reading? What are you watching
Speaker 1: listening to? Did you go to the theater to the
Speaker 1: movies all the time? Well, I was reading. I've I've
Speaker 1: always been reading all of the time. But what were
Speaker 1: you reading? What were you reading that was funny? Um,
Speaker 1: I don't know, perhaps a little bit of Donald barthel
Speaker 1: Me Selene Journey to the End of the Night. I
Speaker 1: never I've never really read anything that's been exclusively funny.
Speaker 1: I like things that are very very serious, but that
Speaker 1: make you laugh consistently, because I think that that's more
Speaker 1: truthful and how life is, or at least that's how
Speaker 1: I experienced life. Um, were your movie cover? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: like to go to the movies alone. That sounds so sad,
Speaker 1: it's perfect. Well, you don't need anybody go to the movies.
Speaker 1: It's you. I don't understand the whole world for the
Speaker 1: people up there on screen. Why do people go with
Speaker 1: other people? They just chew and then they look at
Speaker 1: you and you can hear them breathing. I don't understand
Speaker 1: going to the movies with another person. Um, I love
Speaker 1: going to the movies alone. That's the way to do it.
Speaker 1: And if you can, if you to go in the
Speaker 1: afternoon to a movie that's been out and really for
Speaker 1: a really long time, and you have the whole theater,
Speaker 1: especially in New York City. I mean when I was younger,
Speaker 1: I was living in a very small place. Now it's
Speaker 1: just small, but my early place was very small. So
Speaker 1: you go to this place and it's this huge room
Speaker 1: all to yourself. I mean it's like you're you're like
Speaker 1: a kid for a little Yes, coming up smiles, talks
Speaker 1: about what she used to do with many of her days,
Speaker 1: drink heavily explore the Here's the thing archives. I spoke
Speaker 1: with the late Elaine Stritch, who wasn't a native New Yorker,
Speaker 1: but became one of the city's most iconic residents. When
Speaker 1: she retired and finally left the city, she knew what
Speaker 1: she was going to miss. The personality of human beings
Speaker 1: in New York. They are so opened and second, they're
Speaker 1: not watching what they're doing. They're not you know, they're
Speaker 1: they're not watching their language, They're not watching anything. They're
Speaker 1: just going through life saying what. Yeah, all right, fuck
Speaker 1: you take a listen at Here's the Thing dot org.
Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's
Speaker 1: the Thing. Author Irish Smiles is honest about her life.
Speaker 1: Both of her books humorously deal with very real issues
Speaker 1: of alienation and self abuse. Both of these were present
Speaker 1: in her life even when she was in graduate school
Speaker 1: and working jobs on the side. I was teaching creative
Speaker 1: writing and humanities at the at the school to undergraduates,
Speaker 1: and I had picked up some some jobs waitressing and
Speaker 1: as a hostess. But I wasn't good at those so
Speaker 1: because um I had well, I was drinking really heavily.
Speaker 1: Uh so, and then they gave me this brunch. Also,
Speaker 1: I'm just not a good waitress, but they gave me
Speaker 1: this brunch shift, right, So I would go out and
Speaker 1: I would drink until four in the morning or five,
Speaker 1: and then I would have to be there later. And
Speaker 1: usually it was like I don't know, I was coming
Speaker 1: off some kind of bender. And then I had to
Speaker 1: um carry the drinks during brunch, which was really it's
Speaker 1: really hard to carry a tray with drinks, and especially
Speaker 1: when you have the shakes so like that the glasses
Speaker 1: are rattling all over the place unless you drink one
Speaker 1: and and then I mean so every I mean I
Speaker 1: spilled a lot of drinks or sometimes the customers would
Speaker 1: catch them in time, you know, because I would lower
Speaker 1: the I would lower the tray really slowly. Many people
Speaker 1: came there. It was kind of a game see if
Speaker 1: you can catch the drinks when they well. One of
Speaker 1: the games was I was so bad at the job
Speaker 1: that the manager was like, are you sure you should
Speaker 1: be in service? But then every time you tried to
Speaker 1: broach the subject of my quitting, I would start to
Speaker 1: tear up because I was very sensitive and wanted to
Speaker 1: do well. And then it became sort of a game
Speaker 1: like who am I going to quit? Or is he
Speaker 1: going to fire me? The people around you know, like
Speaker 1: like whoever you were close with, friends, family, did they
Speaker 1: know you had a drinking problem? Well it was anybody
Speaker 1: uh trying to intercede there, know, because I was really
Speaker 1: great at drinking. I mean there was. That's why it
Speaker 1: was hard. It was hard to stop. I mean I
Speaker 1: was That's like pretty much that was my main thing.
Speaker 1: That was like my art form partying. Um. Yeah, drink
Speaker 1: at home. Yeah, and maybe have some you know, have some,
Speaker 1: have a friend over. I don't know, it just sort
Speaker 1: of it's not that it would begin. It basically never stopped.
Speaker 1: You know. To say where it begins is like I
Speaker 1: don't know, um birth um. But but so it was
Speaker 1: hard to give up because that was so much of
Speaker 1: my identity and people around me loved it because I
Speaker 1: was always giving parties and I was creating a lot
Speaker 1: of fun. I mean I wasn't a miserable drink. I
Speaker 1: was drunk. I was. It was just hurting me. Um.
Speaker 1: And also I mean the reason that I gave it
Speaker 1: up is because I wanted to become something I wanted.
Speaker 1: I mean I realized that like, you know, you you
Speaker 1: drink and you have created a wonderful time, But what
Speaker 1: do you, what have you made? And so I wanted
Speaker 1: to be a writer. I wanted to make something. So
Speaker 1: when did that change? When you did you decide that
Speaker 1: drinking was not compatible with who you really wanted to be? Well,
Speaker 1: it was really becoming harder and harder to keep doing it,
Speaker 1: I mean physically, Um that hangovers were becoming pretty bad.
Speaker 1: I just started to realize that I was kind of
Speaker 1: I was getting further and further away from anything that
Speaker 1: I ever wanted to do. And I had big dreams
Speaker 1: and I just was not getting anywhere near them. And um,
Speaker 1: I figured, either I have to revise my dreams, my aspirations, um,
Speaker 1: or make a change in my life in order to
Speaker 1: actually accomplish something. And you did make that change. I did,
Speaker 1: and it was kind of the most exciting. I say,
Speaker 1: the biggest adventure and the most exciting time of my
Speaker 1: life was five years I spent I'd completely retired from
Speaker 1: social and I was just kind of writing and living
Speaker 1: like a monk, I mean on the outside of the
Speaker 1: after graduate school. Yeah, year around I was I guess
Speaker 1: when you went into the cave, when I went into
Speaker 1: the cave, And then I kind of came out five
Speaker 1: years later with a book and happily got it published
Speaker 1: and and now I'm sort of, you know, trying to
Speaker 1: be a human again. So what I wonder is when
Speaker 1: you go into this kind of cloister, when you go
Speaker 1: into the cave, why don't you stay there? If it
Speaker 1: was so fruitful, Ultimately you're missing it was great. But
Speaker 1: I don't I think again it was. It was an
Speaker 1: extreme and it's not sustainable in the same way that
Speaker 1: I mean basically, I took everything that I was giving
Speaker 1: to like my drinking and party lifestyle, and put it
Speaker 1: into into work. And I don't think that you know this,
Speaker 1: the pendulum swings and it has to come back another
Speaker 1: another obsession. Yeah, and so it was, it was good.
Speaker 1: But now I'm I'm trying to sort of cultivate some
Speaker 1: kind of balance, and you know, I want to have
Speaker 1: a have a personal life, so I'm trying to figure
Speaker 1: that out. Um, although it's I'm very intense, it would
Speaker 1: be a lot I long for the cave in truth,
Speaker 1: but you know, it's a new challenge to sort of
Speaker 1: be balanced in the middle. Moderate but doesn't sounds like terrible.
Speaker 1: Who wants to be moderate at anything? And you came
Speaker 1: out with the book called iris has free time? What
Speaker 1: do you do? What? What do you do with a book?
Speaker 1: If you're a writer and you write a book and
Speaker 1: your parents aren't at cannap for something and or Simon
Speaker 1: and Schuster and you're you're you're you with all of
Speaker 1: the defining things about who you are? What do you
Speaker 1: do with that book when you're done? Where do you
Speaker 1: go with it? Well, happily I had met um, a
Speaker 1: professor at City College who liked my work and encouraged
Speaker 1: me to keep writing, and so I showed it to him,
Speaker 1: and then he introduced me or referred me to a
Speaker 1: few different agents, which means that they, you know, put
Speaker 1: my cover letter at the top, and then rejected me
Speaker 1: before all of the other all of the other people.
Speaker 1: But then one of them, finally, one of them kind
Speaker 1: of took me, took me on, and so we made
Speaker 1: our way and got the book out um because of
Speaker 1: how it was published by Counterpoint Um. But those meetings
Speaker 1: like for you, when you're pitching a book or you're
Speaker 1: selling a book to them, what's it like for you?
Speaker 1: You know, out of a period of intense isolation, if
Speaker 1: you will, and now you've got to be a bit
Speaker 1: more collaborative. Was that difficult for you to collaborate with them? Um?
Speaker 1: It was terrible. It was how much did they want
Speaker 1: to change your book? Well? I mean, and that was
Speaker 1: that's why it was a little bit of a process.
Speaker 1: In the beginning. I had seen a couple of agents
Speaker 1: who who liked it, but they were like, yes, but
Speaker 1: what we wanted you need to change it all around
Speaker 1: and do this and and so that was really scary
Speaker 1: because after five years you think, well, this is my chance.
Speaker 1: Do I go agree with them or But I didn't
Speaker 1: want to change it. I didn't believe in that. So
Speaker 1: I took a risk and I, um sort of stuck
Speaker 1: to my guns, found another agent, finally found a publisher
Speaker 1: who didn't also didn't want me to change it. Um.
Speaker 1: And it was just sort of the same thing with
Speaker 1: my with my second book. Um, I think you know
Speaker 1: it's an editor is is important, but it has to
Speaker 1: be the right editor. In your first book, did you
Speaker 1: have the right editor to some degree? Even? Sure? Sure woman, yes,
Speaker 1: But I I think that What I mean is that
Speaker 1: lots of people and now I think, especially now there's
Speaker 1: there's this idea of like writing as much more collaborative
Speaker 1: and so a lot of people put their hands on it,
Speaker 1: and I don't think that's a good idea. I think
Speaker 1: that comes from the comes from so many people are
Speaker 1: going to graduate school for writing, and so they have
Speaker 1: this idea that they're going to like work, shop it
Speaker 1: and put it through the committee, and the more eyes
Speaker 1: it has, the better. And I don't think so I
Speaker 1: don't think it should be collaborative at all. I think
Speaker 1: even you know, really can't be Kenneth No, and it
Speaker 1: gets dulled down, and it should be you know, individual
Speaker 1: and full of I mean, I'd rather see you know better,
Speaker 1: that it be imperfect but extravagant than some kind of
Speaker 1: like measured. Yeah, when you've been working on your second book,
Speaker 1: your your second book is coming out. It just came
Speaker 1: out a month ago. And was it the same publishers
Speaker 1: different Hoteon Mifflin Harcourt. Was it better this experience? Um? Different?
Speaker 1: The counterpoint is as an independent publisher, and so I
Speaker 1: was the big fish there, so they you know, really
Speaker 1: gave it a push. But then at the same time,
Speaker 1: because they're an independent publisher, they have less influence. So
Speaker 1: now I'm a small fish at a big house. Um.
Speaker 1: So it's been it's been, uh great. I like them,
Speaker 1: and I'm very excited because Houghton Mifflin is also the
Speaker 1: publisher of cliffs Notes, So I feel like that's one
Speaker 1: step closer to publishing cliff Notes from my own book. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is important because then people won't even have to
Speaker 1: read my book anymore. They can just you know, study
Speaker 1: up on the symbolism and the foreshadowing, which is important.
Speaker 1: Without actually and just you know, my book could disappear completely.
Speaker 1: The title of your first book was Iris Has Free Time?
Speaker 1: Iris Has Free Time? Came out when two thousand and
Speaker 1: thirteen June, not too long ago. And how would you
Speaker 1: and how would you characterize, if it'll how you've changed
Speaker 1: as a writer since your second came up, which is
Speaker 1: called dating tips for the UM. I think that when
Speaker 1: I right now, I UM. I used to have to
Speaker 1: write a lot more before I found the beginning of something,
Speaker 1: and now I kind of have a better sense of
Speaker 1: you know, I can get there faster, so there's there's
Speaker 1: less wasted. I'm just you know, I guess, yeah, that's it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm getting better with practice. That happens. Where do you
Speaker 1: living now? Oh? I live in UM in New York,
Speaker 1: city over um on the sort of the middle East side,
Speaker 1: which is really nice over there. I moved to around
Speaker 1: Beekman Place, which is I moved there because I'm getting
Speaker 1: on in my years and that's where Anti Maim lived.
Speaker 1: So I feel like I'm entering my main years and
Speaker 1: it's a good place to establish my spinster pad. I
Speaker 1: really like it be a spinsters at a goal. No,
Speaker 1: um no, do you fear that no one will get you?
Speaker 1: Do I fear no one will get me? Um? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I guess I would. I would like to
Speaker 1: meet someone do date? When you date men, Like, when
Speaker 1: you meet a guy that you like, what do you
Speaker 1: typically like about them? Well, that doesn't happen that often,
Speaker 1: I like, but it does happen. Describe that you want
Speaker 1: someone who's clever, funny. No, And I don't generally don't
Speaker 1: go in for for looks. I've noticed I sort of
Speaker 1: have a pattern of dating kind of like a lot
Speaker 1: of like hideous creatures. Yeah, I don't know. I guess
Speaker 1: there was just tend to be more interesting or I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't think they're hideous, but I mean
Speaker 1: according to the standard, the standard, Um, I mean, they're
Speaker 1: not pretty boys. But you don't care. And I guess
Speaker 1: I noticed a slight pattern. I what I go in
Speaker 1: for is like a man I really like man. No,
Speaker 1: no, no no, because he was again hate. I have a
Speaker 1: real thing against him. Um but no, I don't like
Speaker 1: him either because I don't like all those pretensions to
Speaker 1: intellect and all of that. I don't don't like arrogance.
Speaker 1: But so some I've noticed that I have a pattern
Speaker 1: with sort of like, um, I guess like dummies, you know,
Speaker 1: because sometimes you know, smarter men don't they're not. They
Speaker 1: sometimes they're not they don't know how to handle me.
Speaker 1: They're nervous. But like a guy who's not that bright
Speaker 1: doesn't know enough to be nervous. So he's just so
Speaker 1: he's sort of like you know, just he's just more
Speaker 1: he's just more simple, proactive. Yeah, he's not like doubting,
Speaker 1: he's not worrying and elemental. Yeah. I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: but you don't care what you're single? No I do.
Speaker 1: I'd like to meet someone. I'd like to meet someone nice.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be funny if you met your husband going
Speaker 1: to a costume shop somewhere in Minneola. Oh, that sounds
Speaker 1: so romantic. It could be great. Now before we have
Speaker 1: you read something for us, Um, what are your dating
Speaker 1: tips for the unemployed? Because you yourself, I've never really
Speaker 1: been unemployed, have you? You? When you talk about your life,
Speaker 1: that arc is working, working, working and having a job,
Speaker 1: whether it was what you whether it defined you until
Speaker 1: you can get to the point now where you're a writer. Well,
Speaker 1: I've spent Yeah, I've been unemployed. I mean it hasn't
Speaker 1: been even my jobs didn't seem that seriously when you
Speaker 1: had a job, I've always felt unemployed. I guess it's
Speaker 1: the state of life. I think so, And that's why
Speaker 1: I called the book that because it's not all about
Speaker 1: being unemployed. But I think it's, you know, the idea,
Speaker 1: it's it's really I guess if you're trying to date
Speaker 1: when you're unemployed, it's like you're you're a mess, but
Speaker 1: you're trying. You have to make this presentation that you're
Speaker 1: attractive in some way. And I think I've always felt
Speaker 1: that way at my core, even now when people ask
Speaker 1: me what I do, and I thought it would all
Speaker 1: be solved if I could say a writer or a novelist,
Speaker 1: and now I say I'm a writer. And I feel embarrassed,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I feel like I'm law
Speaker 1: dying or it's not true, I'm not writing enough, so
Speaker 1: I don't know if that feeling will ever be over.
Speaker 1: One of your dating tips for the unemployed, Well, um,
Speaker 1: so there's not actually any tips, And I mean the
Speaker 1: book is not actually any tips. It's just it's stories
Speaker 1: that form a novel about, you know, kind of being
Speaker 1: in that awkward period and feeling unformed. But there's one
Speaker 1: piece where there where the character reads an article about
Speaker 1: dating tips for the unemployed, and the tips there there's two. Um,
Speaker 1: it's never date anyone more or less miserable than you. Um,
Speaker 1: that's the one tipa exactly because even if if you
Speaker 1: go with someone who is less miserable than you, then eventually,
Speaker 1: and even if you can fake it for a while,
Speaker 1: eventually they'll find out that you're more miserable and they
Speaker 1: just you have to be miserables date each other. Non
Speaker 1: miserables date each other. How do you determine this is
Speaker 1: the next tip. How do you determine and who is
Speaker 1: a miserable and who is a non miserable? Because everyone
Speaker 1: goes around and presents themselves as a non miserable pretty
Speaker 1: much and about their misery very very few. And one
Speaker 1: way that you can determine that is how people answer
Speaker 1: the question what do you do? So if you answer
Speaker 1: it honestly and you say, I'm an accountant or I
Speaker 1: you know, um, I wait tables, then that person is
Speaker 1: pretty okay with themselves. But if they answer it with
Speaker 1: some sort of clever thing, if they say, like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a I make the toast on the
Speaker 1: astronaut whatever, I'm an astronaut toastmaker. You know, somebody their
Speaker 1: breakfast on the space and they're obviously and they don't
Speaker 1: actually do that, you know, but they respond with like
Speaker 1: too much charm, like compulsive charm, almost defensive charm, like
Speaker 1: actually happy people don't feel the need to be that charming,
Speaker 1: which is why, by the way, why I am so
Speaker 1: adorable and charming, because I've spent years compensating for my misery. Um.
Speaker 1: But so yeah, So that's how you can tell. So
Speaker 1: for example, if someone responds if you say like on
Speaker 1: on social media on Facebook, things like that, if it
Speaker 1: says under occupation, if a person writes blowfish right, then
Speaker 1: that person is definitely miserable. If a person writes Bonds Trader,
Speaker 1: that person is not miserable. So the bonds Trader and
Speaker 1: the blowfish will never work out. That's what you need
Speaker 1: to know. Between Do you have a little extrap you
Speaker 1: want to read? I don't know, let me see what
Speaker 1: to read. Whatever amount you read, it's fantastic just to
Speaker 1: go with. Just do whatever you want to do. Um, okay, well,
Speaker 1: since I mentioned uh, I guess I'll read the family
Speaker 1: politics politics right, yeah, sure, okay. My family is downstairs yelling.
Speaker 1: They're not arguing. That's just how they talk. It's a
Speaker 1: Greek thing, that's what we say. But the truth is,
Speaker 1: when we visit Greece, people remark on how loud we are.
Speaker 1: We respond it's an American thing. I'm in my old
Speaker 1: room at my parents house because I just got into
Speaker 1: a fight with my brother Teddy. He was going on
Speaker 1: about the internet, spelling the end of physical books. Lowering
Speaker 1: his voice to just a yell, he said, in the future,
Speaker 1: no one's gonna want your precious little books, Iris. The
Speaker 1: book will be obsolete. I told him he was wrong,
Speaker 1: that people will always want books. Then he said nan
Speaker 1: nan nan nana, and I lost it and ran upstairs.
Speaker 1: So now I'm up here digging out old swimming trophies
Speaker 1: and dance costumes from under my bed. I have a
Speaker 1: trophy from nineteen ninety two that says highest Achiever. I
Speaker 1: dust it off and think about bringing it back to
Speaker 1: my apartment in Manhattan. Maybe I could turn it into
Speaker 1: a cigarette holder or something. I try on a blue
Speaker 1: ballet costume, and I'm excited to find it still fits.
Speaker 1: I look at myself in the mirror and think about
Speaker 1: Zelda Fitzgerald. She was my age when she took up ballet.
Speaker 1: Taking stock of my reflection, I understand for the first
Speaker 1: time her insanity. I turn in my tutu and notice
Speaker 1: my thighs are thicker than they used to be. I'm
Speaker 1: an oversized child, a monster of wilted potential. I put
Speaker 1: on my point shoes and attempt a few poses in
Speaker 1: front of the mirror. After a while, I changed back
Speaker 1: into my regular clothes and head downstairs. Everyone is standing
Speaker 1: around the kitchen table yelling at the top of their lungs,
Speaker 1: agreeing that Bush has betrayed the party. I hold up
Speaker 1: a hanger with the tutu on it and ask my mom,
Speaker 1: what's the best way to remove wrinkles from tool. What
Speaker 1: do you want with that old thing? Now throw it out?
Speaker 1: No way, I say, I can't believe you had it
Speaker 1: all scrunched up in a bag. I could use it
Speaker 1: for a Halloween costume or my author photo. A web
Speaker 1: magazine is going to publish one of my stories this spring.
Speaker 1: Oh god, she says, steam it. Maybe hang it in
Speaker 1: the shower. I pull out the blue tool. Worry a
Speaker 1: loose sequin. Then sit at the end of the table
Speaker 1: and listen. I don't know how to talk to them.
Speaker 1: All they ever talk about is politics, which I've given up,
Speaker 1: having decided long ago that cultivating opinions about politics is
Speaker 1: against my better interests. I lean right economically, which as
Speaker 1: a writer would put me at odds with the artistic
Speaker 1: and academic communities in which I work. I recognize my
Speaker 1: views are somewhat paradoxical. For example, idealistically speaking, I'm a
Speaker 1: rugged individualist. The government is a necessary evil, I like
Speaker 1: to say, like boyfriends. But practically speaking, were it not
Speaker 1: for my parents, I would need government handouts more than anyone.
Speaker 1: I'm prime welfare material, in fact, trying to assuage my
Speaker 1: father's disappointment in the maccayan candidacy last election. My mother
Speaker 1: told him, on the bright side, if Obama is elected,
Speaker 1: the government will help us support IRIS. It's pretty well
Speaker 1: understood in my family that I can't take care of myself,
Speaker 1: which is why family values are so important to me.
Speaker 1: It's paramount that I marry so as to preserve my
Speaker 1: identity as a rugged individualist. If my parents ever cut
Speaker 1: me loose and I were forced to rely on the
Speaker 1: state for support, my whole ideology would crumble. I don't
Speaker 1: approve of social programs. F DR ruined this country with
Speaker 1: this pink O rescue plan. Let those in need pull
Speaker 1: up their socks, I say, all while dreaming of the
Speaker 1: day that my parents burden me might be transferred to
Speaker 1: a rich husband and I might continue to cultivate my
Speaker 1: pioneer spirit in safety. Fantastic pantest. What's your favorite holiday? Halloween?
Speaker 1: Of course? Are you writing another book now? Um? Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm completing I'm starting a new novel, but I'm
Speaker 1: completing a volume of light verse, sort of called Girls
Speaker 1: Who Wear Glasses. It's poems about you know, love and
Speaker 1: partying and and sex. Um, but they rhyme. It's a
Speaker 1: sort of updated Dorothy Parker Ogden Nash kind of thing rhyming.
Speaker 1: I mean, who doesn't love that Irish smiles. Dating Tips
Speaker 1: for the Unemployed is available in bookstores now. Oh, I
Speaker 1: forgot to give you your prime. Oh my god, I'm
Speaker 1: so glad you reminded me. Okay, now tell tell our
Speaker 1: listeners what exactly it is I'm getting. I won the
Speaker 1: blurb Contest, the National blurb Contest that's right for your book,
Speaker 1: for my book, and the blurb Contest of the The
Speaker 1: award ceremony was held where at the Econo Lodge in
Speaker 1: New York City, in the lobby next to the ice
Speaker 1: machine at six am during their free continental breakfast. I
Speaker 1: was so sorry I couldn't make it. I told you
Speaker 1: I was crushed. I'm sorry you couldn't make it too.
Speaker 1: Did you accept on my behalf? I did? I did?
Speaker 1: May I see it? Yes? Um? So this is your
Speaker 1: whole price package. It comes with it, IRIS has free
Speaker 1: time bag. My god, I mean. And then here's your
Speaker 1: award for your actual blurb. I love it. And of
Speaker 1: course there you know it is a signed copy of
Speaker 1: the book. A signed copy of the book with your
Speaker 1: blurb printed on the back. Now in the book, and
Speaker 1: the book that's been published is my blurb on the
Speaker 1: back of the book. Is not an alternate version. You
Speaker 1: just have these made up for me as a gift.
Speaker 1: I'm on the book. You you've made it. Have you
Speaker 1: ever eaten entimates? Oh? Yes, I love them? Did I
Speaker 1: say I didn't read this book and I didn't have to.
Speaker 1: On the cover it said Irish smiles and that's more
Speaker 1: than enough for me. Like logos for Coca Cola, Frido's
Speaker 1: and antimons Iris's name assures me that what's inside is
Speaker 1: so yummy. This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to
Speaker 1: here's the thing.