1 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's a well worn adage 2 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: that talks about death by a thousand cuts. It implies 3 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: that it's slow and it's painful, something that no one 4 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: would ever want to endure. For years I handle cases 5 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 1: involved in sharp instruments. I have to say that, in 6 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: all of my years as a death investigator, I don't 7 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: believe I've ever encountered a case involving this many stab 8 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: wounds and so many unanswered questions. I'm talking about twenty, 9 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: not a thousand, but twenty cuts, a case of Ellen Greenberg. 10 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs today. 11 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: I'm joined by my friend Jackie Howard, who's the executive 12 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: producer of Crime Stories. Would Nancy Grace, Jackie, won't you 13 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: tell us about this case? Joe Ellen Greenberg was a 14 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: bride to be. She had just sent out the saved 15 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: to dates for her upcoming wedding. By all accounts, she 16 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: was excited about this wedding. Her fiance and living boyfriend 17 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: went to the gym in their apartment complex. He came 18 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: back up and found the door locked. At that time, 19 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: he began beating on the door, calling texting, but Ellen 20 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 1: did not answer. He tried to get into the door. 21 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: The fiance finally manages to break the door down, and 22 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure most people are thinking, why didn't he just 23 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: use a key? The door had a lock on it, 24 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: like you have at an hotel that has a bar 25 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: that swings across the opening of the door to make 26 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: it impossible to open the door from the outside even 27 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: if you have a key. So he's trying to get in. 28 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: Ellen does not answer. He finally manages to break the 29 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: door down. Once he gets inside, he finds Ellen Greenberg 30 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: on the floor. She has been stabbed multiple times twenty 31 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: as you said, and the knife is still embedded in 32 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: her chest. Nine one woman was called service personnel come 33 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: and as the determination of what happened to Ellen Greenberg 34 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: has made and it's determined to be a suicide. You know, Jackie, 35 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about a young woman, healthy, fitwoman. She's a 36 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: school teacher, has got her entire life ahead of her. 37 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: Seemingly she's enjoying life, like you'd mentioned, she's excited about 38 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: her upcoming nuptials. You know, she's taking the time to 39 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: send out Save the date cars. She's been living this 40 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 1: guy for a while, they're making plans, and he goes 41 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: the gym and comes back, and after he breaks the 42 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: door down, he finds her on the floor suffering from 43 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: this many wounds. I gotta tell you, Jackie, over the 44 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: course of my career, I don't ever recall working a 45 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: case where I had an individual that had self inflicted 46 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: sharp force injuries at this number. I mean, this is 47 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: almost an unimaginable number that we're talking about twenty because 48 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: you know, you begin to think, how can anyone endure 49 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: that level of pain? I mean, we all know what 50 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: it's like to cut ourselves, cut ourselves on a piece 51 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: of paper even and its stings. Can you imagine driving 52 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: a knife blade into your body this many times? And 53 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: this is a curious thing. The knife wounds are not 54 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: simply what you might think, just like into the abdomen 55 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: or maybe a single time into the chest. We're talking 56 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: about multiple injuries on not just the chest, but also 57 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: on the back. Now, how does that work. I'm trying 58 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: to understand this, and in to her neck as well. 59 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: And one of the things that was discovered at autopsy 60 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: was the fact that the knife had actually penetrated the 61 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: cervical spinal column. Right, it about the C one or 62 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: C two level and had actually actually penetrated and touched 63 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: and brushed up against the spinal cord. Now, this is 64 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: almost an unimaginable feat and I don't know that there's 65 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: any way that you can kind of do the arithmetic 66 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: on here to make it come out right. Let me 67 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: jump in here and get just a little explanation for folks. 68 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: Described for me where exactly the C one and C 69 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: two area is. If folks will at home, just think 70 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: about the first cervical vertebra that you have is commonly 71 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: it's got an interesting name. A lot of people aren't 72 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: aware of it. The very first cervical vertebra that we 73 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: have is actually called the Atlas. And just imagine you 74 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: know from mythology, that gigantic man that's holding up the earth. 75 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure that many people have seen this. Atlas was 76 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 1: his name, and that, you know, I think that early 77 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: anatomous they felt like, well, that's that's a great representation. 78 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: People can understand that I need it. I'm kind of 79 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: a simple minded fellow. So if I'm thinking about something 80 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: holding something up, I'm thinking about that C one that's 81 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: that first cervical vertebra that's actually supporting the head, all right, 82 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: and everything that we do, all of our actions are 83 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: dictated by our head and our brain. So it's a 84 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: critical area. As a matter of fact. It's so critical 85 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: that when you look at that area C one, C two, 86 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: and C three, that's where our brain stem kind of 87 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: comes down. It's it's the gateway to our autonomic nervous system. 88 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: And what folks don't understand that that's that's what controls 89 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: our respirations, that's what controls our heartbeat. It's the hub 90 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: of everything kind of the primal brain, those things that 91 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: occur without us thinking about it. You're talking directly at 92 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: the base of the skull at the back of the neck. Yeah, 93 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: we're right at the base of the skull in this 94 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: particular case, Jackie. And that's one of the things that's 95 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: so troubling. Now, I'll put it to you this way. 96 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: If you were let's just put it in the context of, say, 97 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: if you were a professional killer, if you were looking 98 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: to take someone out, Okay, that is a primary area 99 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: where you're almost guaranteed, say if you're firing a gun 100 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: for a kill shot, because you know that you're going 101 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 1: to take them out in that split second of time, 102 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 1: and the fact that she had this injury there is significant. 103 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: It's very significant because you think about this and you say, well, 104 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: how in the world could anybody recover from that type 105 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: of injury to go on and continue to stab himself. Remember, 106 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: that's only one of twenty stab wounds that she sustained one. 107 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: And in addition to that stab wound that we've just 108 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: reflected upon, she's also got a real nasty gash on 109 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: the back of her head. It's kind of a if 110 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: you'll think of a half moon or a quarter moon. 111 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: It's kind of elliptical in shape, kind of an odd, 112 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: an odd injury, and it appears, according to what the 113 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: autopsy report was saying, that the edges what we call 114 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: the margins of that injury are clean, which more than 115 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: likely indicates that this was generated by an edged weapon. So, 116 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: you know, you think about how can someone endure this 117 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: kind of trauma? And upon further examination of Ellen's body, 118 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: when you begin to look at her arms and her legs, 119 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: there are other, I don't know, contusions, little bruises that 120 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: are on her body. Now the pathologist says that they're 121 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: resolving in nature, so he doesn't go into great detail 122 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: relative to how distant they might be in the past 123 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: or how recent they are. But there's one major thing 124 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: that is left out in this autopsy report that I've 125 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: discovered that in cases I've been involved in, is essential 126 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: relative to someone's ability to handle a weapon or handle 127 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: a knife in this particular case, and that is arm length. 128 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: You know, just think about it. We all don't have 129 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: the same length arms, do well. You know, you think 130 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: about the measurement from your shoulder to your elbow, and 131 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: from your elbow to your wrist, and from your wrist 132 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: to the tips of your fingers. All of that equates 133 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: into this thought of what is your ability to wield 134 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: a knife in order to self inflict an injury? And 135 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: you have to look at the injuries that Ellen had 136 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: on her body. How is it that you can take 137 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: a knife and literally drive it into your own back 138 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: And you have to think, well, maybe you could do 139 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: that once, maybe you could do it twice, But then 140 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: you think all of the pain associated because once you've 141 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: driven it into those areas, once you have made contact 142 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: with your skin, you've cut through nerves, you've cut through 143 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: the muscle, and you have literally gone to bone at 144 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: that point. How much pain is associated with you're gonna 145 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: tell me, you're gonna do that over and over and 146 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: over again. I don't think so. I mean, the individual 147 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: that would be capable of self inflicting this kind of 148 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: injury would, in my estimation at least, have to be 149 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: a raving psychotic. And there is no indication, no indication whatsoever, 150 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: that Ellen Greenberg suffered from any kind of acute psychoses whatsoever. 151 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: I mean, this poor young lady. She had anxiety. Who 152 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: in the world doesn't have anxiety? She had trouble sleeping 153 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: at night. Well, she was taking clinas apam. Do you 154 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: realize how many people in our population take clinaise apam? 155 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: And there is no association between clinas apam and psychotic 156 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: behavior that I've been able to find in the literature. 157 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: Everybody has trouble sleeping every now and then. She's got 158 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: a lot on her she's teaching in public schools, she's 159 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: you know, planning a wedding, and so in that sense, 160 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: there's no evidence to indicate that she's in it some 161 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:08,079 Speaker 1: kind of frenzied mental state where she could inflict these 162 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: kind of insults to her body, and not just these 163 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: kinds of insults, but to continue to do it over 164 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: and over and over again till finally she takes this 165 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: single edged serrated knife, now that's a state knife, just 166 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: so that you were clear, and buries it in her 167 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 1: chest where they find it at the scene. And just 168 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: so people can visualize this, if you have access to 169 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: a dollar bill, take that dollar bill out. Okay, look 170 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: at it. I mean look at the face of it. 171 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: From the left side of it to just pass George 172 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: Washington's head, that's ten centimeters. That's how deep this knife 173 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: was buried in her. So you think about that and 174 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: think about all of the pain associated with that. It 175 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: really is a headscratcher. Jackie joh I want to take 176 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: a step back to something that you mentioned a minute ago. 177 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: I hadn't never thought of arm length in relation to 178 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: this case, although obviously it is a very important part. 179 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: But what I was thinking about was flexibility. I mean, 180 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: I'm very lucky to be able to scratch the back 181 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: of my neck when it you know, or the back 182 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: of my shoulder blades when I have an itch, let alone, 183 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: to be able to hurt myself, to stab myself in 184 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: the back. Is it possible that despite your arm length, 185 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: that your flexibility gives you the capability to create these 186 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: kinds of injuries. Jackie, I gotta say, that's an excellent question. 187 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: You begin to think about this and it's like, okay, 188 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: you know, if you are that flexible, all right, Let's 189 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: say she's in tip top physical shape. Maybe she does yoga, 190 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: she can stretch, she can be in I mean, she'd 191 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: probably do a lot better than my old body could do. 192 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: And you think about doing this maybe once to be 193 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 1: able to manipulate a knife in everybody at home kind 194 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: of think about how you would have to hold a 195 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: knife or to inflict this injury. So you would have 196 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: to turn the knife so that the tip is facing 197 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: your face, the tip of it you're looking down, the 198 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: long axis of the blade, blade edge is probably up, 199 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 1: and then you would have to take it and as 200 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: as your elbow bins, drive it into your shoulder blades, 201 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: down your back near your spinal column, into the back 202 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: of your head. Even if you try to do this 203 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: into the back of your head, that's hard to do. 204 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: You would have to be tremendously flexible. And the one 205 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: thing that folks might not understand or grasp all the 206 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: while that you're doing this. Every time you make another 207 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: little cut, another little nick in your body, your pain 208 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: center is screaming, screaming, over and over again. You know, 209 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: don't do this. Your body's trying to don't do it. 210 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: Don't do it. Is too much pain associated with don't 211 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: do it. But yet you can tinue to do it. 212 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: And you are able to be this nimble and this 213 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: flexible in order to facilitate this over and over and 214 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: over and over again. It's absolutely mind blowing. That's why 215 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: myself and a lot of other colleagues of mine that 216 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: have taken a look at this case that are forensics folks, 217 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: we don't understand how plausible this could be that someone 218 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: could actually do this and self inflict these insults to 219 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: their body. But you know, there's really no clear answers 220 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,839 Speaker 1: to this case. One of the fascinating things is this, 221 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: when the autopsy was completed, it was determined that she 222 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: had stabbed herself, according to the m in several vital areas, 223 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: I mean areas in her body that would absolutely lead 224 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: lead to death. She's got both sides of her chest 225 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: cavity and her lungs are filled with blood. Okay, so 226 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: that means that somewhere along the way, her ability to 227 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: respire has been compromised, So her chest cavity is filling 228 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: up with blood, and that's compromising the lungs ability to 229 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: inhalate and exhalate. Also, interestingly enough, in your heart, your 230 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: heart actually sits in a little sack that's called pericardium, 231 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: pericardial sack that's been nicked. Well, not only has it 232 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: been nicked, the aorta has been nicked, and that's the 233 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: major vessel that comes off of the heart that supplies 234 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: that supplies the rest of the the body with oxygenated blood. 235 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: That pericardial sack around the heart, it's becoming engrossed with 236 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: blood as well, so the heart's laboring to beat. All 237 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: of this time. Not to mention, you've got this spinal 238 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: insult that has taken place with a knife, and all 239 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: the while you're telling me that even though she is 240 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: this physically compromised, she's still capable of carrying out these 241 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: self inflicted insults to her body. I just I can't 242 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: see it happening. I don't understand how it's even possible. 243 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: Just suppose for a second that you just take your hand, 244 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: an empty hand and you move it about your body 245 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: twenty times. Think about that that requires a certain amount 246 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: of energy in order to facilitate this. You begin to 247 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: think about this poor young woman, Ellen Greenberg. She's holding 248 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: a knife in her hand, a serrated edge knife, nonetheless, 249 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: And what they're trying to tell us is that as 250 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: she's hold in this knife, she is inflicting all of 251 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: these injuries to her body, compromising her lungs, her heart, 252 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: and potentially her brain. And yet she's able to keep 253 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: up this pace with a lack of oxygenated blood. Remember, 254 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: what the pathologist is saying in the autopsy report is 255 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: that steadily her chest cavity, her chest cavity on both sides, 256 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,359 Speaker 1: is filling up with blood. Her paricardium, which actually encases 257 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: the heart, is filling up with blood. They even make 258 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: note of a superficial subrachnoid hemorrhage in her brain, which 259 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: is putting pressure on her brain all the while, And 260 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: they expect us to believe that she could facilitate inflicting 261 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: all of these injuries upon herself while all the while 262 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: just so slowly depriving herself of much needed oxygenated blood. 263 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I'm just not buying it. I 264 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: don't see how it's physically possible for her to have 265 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: done this in her apartment. They're all alone. How is 266 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: this possible that she could have done it? And you 267 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: know what, it's not like she wandered over the entire 268 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 1: apartment while she's doing it. Everything that occurred appears to 269 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: have occurred in one spot, and that's in her kitchen. Joe. 270 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the forensics itself. We've talked about the 271 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: body and the wounds that she had, but let's talk 272 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: about the forensics of the room itself. We know that 273 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: the door was broken, we know that Ellen was found 274 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: with the knife still in her body. She was found 275 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: in a seated position, which I think most people find odd. 276 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: What strikes you about this scene? I think the fact 277 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: that she is seated in an upright position. It almost 278 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: seems unnatural, doesn't it. And the fact that this boyfriend 279 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: that discovered her, he would have made note of that 280 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: at that time, that she was in this position with 281 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: a knife in her chest, and didn't lay her to 282 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: the floor. You know, they gave him a corrective to 283 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: start CPR on her. But he's saying, she's got a 284 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: knife in her chest. Can you imagine this? And it 285 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: should It was probably a horror show in this environment. 286 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: There's probably blood all over the floor, it's all over 287 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: her obviously it's going to be on her hands and 288 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: this knife. I've actually seen the pictures of the knife. 289 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: The blood is just encrusted around the handle of the 290 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: knife as well as on the surface of the blade 291 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: as well. They had to remove it at autopsy, So 292 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: you begin to think about this, it seems almost unnatural. 293 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: But one of the really curious things about this, Jackie, 294 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: is that we know that gravity is a constant force 295 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,959 Speaker 1: in the universe. It impacts our bodies everywhere we go. 296 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: One of the interesting things that was noted about Ellen's 297 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: body is that she actually had a streak of blood 298 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 1: that was coming out of her ear. That get this 299 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: was traveling from front to back, so that if if 300 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: it's it would violate the laws of nature. It's almost 301 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: as if she had sustained an injury while laying back. 302 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: The blood came out of her ear and dripped down 303 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: to the floor, and then she sat up and left 304 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: this blood stained mark on her ear. And that's that's 305 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: just not possible. It almost implies that some way in 306 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: some way her body may have been manipulated. And that's 307 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: why it's so key that when they arrived at the scene, 308 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: what exactly did they find relative to her body and 309 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: the remainder of the scene. You know, what, how long 310 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: had she been down? Because the timeline here is crucial 311 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: to what degree had postmortem changes begin to take place 312 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: in Ellen's body? Well? Was the temperature of her body 313 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: when the investigators first got there? Was she and ryder mortis? 314 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: Because that takes a very specific amount of time to 315 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,479 Speaker 1: set in. Did she have lybra morris where blood had settled? 316 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: Remember she was in a seated position, all right, So 317 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: that would indicate that if she had lybra mortis in 318 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: her body, that is settling a blood where the skin 319 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: actually changes color because of congestion dependent congestion we call it, 320 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: it would have settled to the backs of her legs 321 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: and her buttocks would have been touching the floor, and 322 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: so you would it would be really really purple, livacious 323 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: as they call it. So I'd be very interested to 324 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: know was there any lybra mortis on her shoulder blades 325 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: or on her lower back That would indicate that at 326 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: some point in time she'd been laying on her back. 327 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: So all of this is key, it just doesn't necessarily 328 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: marry up. So let's talk a little bit more about 329 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 1: the room itself. The door was locked, there was one 330 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: way in or out. Ellen did not live on the 331 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 1: ground floor, so there was a very small balcony, but 332 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: it was not like a balcony that you would go 333 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: out side and sit and you know, hang out with 334 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: friends and talk or have dinner. It's a very small balcony. 335 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: There's only one way in or out of this room, 336 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: and the door is locked. Jackie, that's a good point. 337 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: I've always imagined this, this uh, this apartment to look 338 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: somewhat like, uh maybe an extended stay suite that you 339 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: would find out on the road in a hotel. And 340 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: the one thing it has in common is one of 341 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: these interior swing locks. I'm sure that many people that 342 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: are listening have had access to these. You know, it's 343 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: got the one little bar that's attached to the door itself, 344 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: and then it's got this kind of gate that swings 345 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: over that one little bar, and if you try to 346 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: open the door, even after the dead bolt is off 347 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: and you kind of that that little bar catches on 348 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: that handle on that swing, and it prevents it from 349 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: opening any further. That was physically in place, according to 350 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: the boyfriend, when he came to enter the apartment. As 351 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, he reports getting rather upset. Whether 352 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: he's texting her, you know, he's saying, look, don't you know, 353 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: don't be playing around, or whatever it was that he 354 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: had stated, let me in, let me in. I don't 355 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: know what's going on, And of course he eventually had 356 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: to force his way into the apartment. How is this possible? 357 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: Would the swing lock that this would have been in place, 358 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: he could not have gotten in. And we've got a 359 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: woman that is essentially seated in the kitchen that has 360 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: sustained twenty stab wounds. But to my account, it would 361 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: seem that it's not possible for her to have self 362 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: inflicted these wounds. Jackie, I just don't see how that's plausible. 363 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 1: There's only one way into this place. You've got a 364 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: single entrance in an interior hallway. I don't see anybody 365 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: leaping off of that balcony down out of this multi 366 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: story building. I think that they probably wind up breaking 367 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: their ankles or breaking their leg How is it possible 368 00:22:54,400 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: that someone could have come and gone without them being seen. Jackie. 369 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: I don't know that there's necessarily any clear answers in 370 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: the case involving Ellen Greenberg's death, but I can tell 371 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: you this, I know that there's somebody out there that 372 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: does want one answers, and that's her mom and dad, 373 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: because for ten years now they've been searching for someone 374 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: to tell them definitively what happened on that day that 375 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: their daughter passed away. Joe, You're absolutely right. The Greenbergs 376 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: have been fighting for a very long time now to 377 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: get this ruling of suicide changed. They have been to court, 378 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,719 Speaker 1: they have filed motions, they have done depositions, and we 379 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: know that in those depositions there were some things brought 380 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: up that really raises questions about further this finding is accurate. 381 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: What were those Joe? The most significant thing, Jackie, is that, 382 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: upon further reflection, there was another pathologist who was working 383 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: for the Medical Examiner, the same medical Examiner's office that 384 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: did Ellen's exam. Let's just going to blow you away. 385 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 1: Remember that that injury that we talked about that was 386 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: involving the C one, C two, and C three cervical spawn. Well, 387 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: when this mythologist looked at this, she saw something very interesting, 388 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: the fact that when this knife entered that area, that 389 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: critical area that literally dictates the quality of life that 390 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: we're going to have. During the course of a deposition, 391 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: she revealed that it was her opinion that this insult 392 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 1: this injury that Ellen sustained to the back her neck, 393 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: to their spinal column. She stated that there was no hemorrhage. 394 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: There was no hemorrhage in that specific area. And you 395 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: have to factor that with this. The head and the 396 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: neck are arguably the most vascular areas in our body, 397 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: and what that means is that there is more blood 398 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: supply probably going to that area of the human body 399 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: because the brain requires so much oxygen. So you're going 400 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: to tell me that you're going to insert a knife 401 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:34,360 Speaker 1: into this area and there is no significant hemorrhage surrounding 402 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: the spinal column. Well, the thing that she came up 403 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: with this other pathologist that did this examination was that, yeah, 404 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: she got stabbed in that area, but because there was 405 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: no hemorrhage, she doesn't believe that this happened in life. 406 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: She thinks that it was post mortem. That means that 407 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: it occurred after death because as we know, if you 408 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: sustain a bump, a contusion, a bruise, If you sustain 409 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: a laceration, an incised wound with an edged weapon or 410 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: a gunshot wound, and you're alive at the time that 411 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: you sustain those injuries to your body, you're going to bleed. 412 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg, according to this pathologist, didn't bleed in that 413 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 1: specific area, And that specific area is key to this Jackie. 414 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: It's key because in most people that would be an 415 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: area that would be so affected by this type of 416 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: injury that it would shut you down. We had talked 417 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: about already. That's that's where the autonomic nervous system kind 418 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: of roots out of. It comes up out of that 419 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: the base of the spinal cord right there. It's critical 420 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: to everything that we do, so any the slightest little 421 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,719 Speaker 1: insult in that area, the slightest little injury, can be 422 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: very impactful. And the fact that there was no hemorrhage 423 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,959 Speaker 1: in there, according to this pathologist, indicates that this injury 424 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: may very well have occurred after Ellen had passed away. 425 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: So that leaves us with a big question, doesn't it. 426 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: How can a young woman who has reportedly been stabbing 427 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: herself over and over and over again, according to the 428 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: medical examiner, how can she sustain an injury like this 429 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: to her neck after she's deceased? How is that even 430 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: physically possible. I've been around a lot of dead bodies 431 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: in my life, and Jackie, over the course of my career, 432 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: thousands of them, and I have never seen someone that 433 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: is deceased just self inflicting injury. So that that begs 434 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: the question, how did this occur? And by whose hand? 435 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: And so that's that's the kind of question that the 436 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: family has asked, and that's the kind of question that 437 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: the family deserves an answer to. But you know what's 438 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: really sad about this, Jackie, is the fact that this mythologist, 439 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: she never files a report here the family is there 440 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 1: asking for answers. I'd say that this is a pretty 441 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: big answer. This is a big piece of information from 442 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: an investigative standpoint that the family should have known immediately. 443 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: It took a deposition in order to pull this dat out. 444 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: So Joe I am by no means, I'm not even 445 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: a forensics beginner. I don't even have to go that 446 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: far because all I have to look at, and I 447 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: think most lay people all they have to look at 448 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: is the fact that Ellen Greenberg had twenty stab wounds 449 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: that were supposedly self inflicted. And I'm standing here on 450 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: the outside looking in, going there is no way that 451 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: you can stab yourself twenty times and it be considered 452 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: a suicide. So explain it to me, Joe, how this 453 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: could have been ruled a suicide? To begin with, Let 454 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: me correct jump something there in Jackie, this case was 455 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: not originally ruled a suicide. In the first iteration of 456 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: this thing that the m had come out and said 457 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: that they thought that it was a homicide. So what 458 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: changed along the continuum here to make them suddenly doing 459 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: about face, say oh, well, it's it's not a homicide. 460 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: This is obviously a suicide. Obviously a suicide, Okay, obviously 461 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: no equivocation. This is a suicide, a suicide involving twenty 462 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: self inflicted stab wounds. That that's obvious that this is 463 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: a suicide. And you know, it defies I think on 464 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: many levels logic that this could in fact be be 465 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: a suicide because we're talking about a young woman who 466 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: has not expressed any kind of what psychiatrists referred to 467 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: as suicidal ideation. And yeah, I know that people do 468 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: on occasion take their lives and they haven't sent up 469 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: any signal. But in this particular case, she seems as 470 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: though that she was rather stable in the world that 471 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: she was existing in. And yeah, she has suffered from anxiety, 472 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: but she wasn't stark, raving mad where she would take 473 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,479 Speaker 1: where she would take a steak knife and plunge it 474 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: into her body twenty times. It it doesn't, It doesn't balance. 475 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: This equation doesn't balance at the end. What's of striking 476 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: about this case is that not only was she in 477 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: a lock apartment and the boyfriend had to make his 478 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: way through this gate lock on the door, and that 479 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: she had blood streaming out of her ear that's consistent 480 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: with her laying on her back, And that she has 481 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: taken a steak knife and plunged it into her body 482 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: twenty times, and then to boot leaves the knife embedded 483 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: in her own chest. It gets it gets a bit 484 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: more murky because you know, initially, as as I've stated, 485 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: the pathologist had actually originally ruled this as in fact 486 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: a homicide, but then they did an about face and 487 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: changed it to suicide. One other odd thing is that 488 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: out of all the people in the world that the 489 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: medical examiner could have referred this case too. They referred 490 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: this case for further examination by one of the most 491 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: renowned neuropathologist in American history, and that's doctor Lucy Rourke, 492 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: who's up in Philadelphia. The pathologist claims that doctor Lucy 493 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: Rourke actually examined ellen spinal cord. Well, guess what. Doctor 494 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: Rourke says that she never was involved in this case, 495 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: and this, of all cases, is one that you would 496 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: want to have a neuropathology consult on because of the 497 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: injury to the spinal cord. She says she never saw 498 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: the case. So that adds another layer. And I think 499 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: that now we can begin to see why the parents 500 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: would be so suspicious about this case, why they have 501 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: so many questions that have remained after a decade unanswered, 502 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: or at least the answers that they've been given are 503 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: not satisfactory. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks