1
00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,720
Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

2
00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:07,200
Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

3
00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:16,600
Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

4
00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,919
Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

5
00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,960
Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Tuesday, February seventeenth, and yes,

6
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,639
Speaker 2: we have a stack knight of headlines. I'm Stephanie Leidecker

7
00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 2: here with Courtney Armstrong, Body Move In, and we have

8
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:40,040
Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan, our most favorite forensics expert here with us,

9
00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,360
Speaker 2: also the host of the hit podcast Body Bags that

10
00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,120
Speaker 2: you could also check out on YouTube. Congrats by the way,

11
00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,199
Speaker 2: on all of that, Joseph, there's so much to get to. Obviously,

12
00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:56,280
Speaker 2: we're all still desperately searching for Nancy Guthrie. There's more information,

13
00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,840
Speaker 2: more forensics to go through. So, Joseph, you've been covering

14
00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,360
Speaker 2: this so closely, so we have a lot to get

15
00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,880
Speaker 2: through on that front. And also you're going to do

16
00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,520
Speaker 2: a deep dive with us on Kurt Cobain's death, which

17
00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:11,759
Speaker 2: is one of those cases that we get a lot

18
00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,959
Speaker 2: of feedback about a lot of listeners have reached out,

19
00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,560
Speaker 2: you know, really requesting that we do a deeper dive,

20
00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,679
Speaker 2: and I know this falls right under your jurisdiction. And

21
00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 2: also we were talking about this last night. In fact,

22
00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,920
Speaker 2: Adam made his big debut. We were talking about the

23
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:34,319
Speaker 2: new Mexico Zoro Ranch and Joseph Scott Morgan, you may remember,

24
00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,160
Speaker 2: also appeared in our documentary Murdered and Missing in Montana,

25
00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,800
Speaker 2: which you can find on Peacock, which is kind of

26
00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,440
Speaker 2: where we all started working together for the very first time.

27
00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,480
Speaker 2: And I'm convinced there's so much crossover right now between

28
00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,640
Speaker 2: some of the cases that we're covering that I think

29
00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,640
Speaker 2: it's really important for us to learn more about because

30
00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,600
Speaker 2: maybe we can apply these things to other missing cases

31
00:01:58,880 --> 00:01:59,960
Speaker 2: in and around the area.

32
00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:06,560
Speaker 3: So be Tuesday, everybody, Happy Tuesday. Happy Tuesday.

33
00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:07,600
Speaker 4: Here we go.

34
00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,040
Speaker 5: Let's jump right in, should we Yeah, right into Nancy

35
00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,840
Speaker 5: Guthrie and listen. I wish I had a few less

36
00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:18,040
Speaker 5: questions to offer up and a lot more facts.

37
00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:19,600
Speaker 3: But here's what.

38
00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,520
Speaker 5: So, investigators are analyzing DNA from gloves found near victim

39
00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,560
Speaker 5: Nancy Guthrie's Arizona home, and they're trying to match it

40
00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,480
Speaker 5: to that unknown male who was captured on doorbell footage

41
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,160
Speaker 5: that by now most of us have seen if you're

42
00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,000
Speaker 5: just catching up. Nancy Guthrie. She's the mother of the

43
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,720
Speaker 5: Today Show anchor Savannah Guthrie, and she disappeared from her

44
00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,640
Speaker 5: home in Tucson back on February first of this year,

45
00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:49,040
Speaker 5: and it is as suspected abduction. Authorities have cleared her

46
00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:54,160
Speaker 5: family as suspect. They're investigating leads using DNA evidence and

47
00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,440
Speaker 5: surveillance video. Okay, Gloves are found two miles from Nancy

48
00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,840
Speaker 5: Guthrie's home that match the appearance on the glove that

49
00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,280
Speaker 5: was seen on the man on the doorbell video. It's

50
00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,040
Speaker 5: being reported by places such as CNN and The New

51
00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,679
Speaker 5: York Times that DNA found on the gloves was tested,

52
00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 5: but it has no matches in CODIS and does not

53
00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:21,000
Speaker 5: match DNA collected from her home. However, there are some questions.

54
00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,720
Speaker 5: Who wants to jump into those.

55
00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:28,720
Speaker 4: Well reports, Yeah, I think it's right before we went live,

56
00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,239
Speaker 4: by Okay, So here's what happened this morning. I'm on

57
00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,560
Speaker 4: Twitter looking and what's going on, and tm Z was like, listen,

58
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,640
Speaker 4: there's been there's a really bad screw up. I'm paraphrasing

59
00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,680
Speaker 4: you guys, Okay, And they were saying that the DNA

60
00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,360
Speaker 4: from the glove cannot be entered into COTIS, the National

61
00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:51,320
Speaker 4: Combined Index System for you know DNA that FBI uses

62
00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 4: because you know, FBI protocol is that the DNA needs

63
00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,520
Speaker 4: to be tested at a lab in the state in

64
00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,840
Speaker 4: which it was found. Okay, now we know that there

65
00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,360
Speaker 4: was a big controversy because the sheriff's department has a

66
00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,440
Speaker 4: contract with the lab in Florida, so they sent the

67
00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,600
Speaker 4: DNA to Florida. Okay, So the FBI is like, we

68
00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,400
Speaker 4: can't do anything with this, right. So it's confusing because

69
00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,719
Speaker 4: right after this report came out from TEMZM like scratching

70
00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,120
Speaker 4: my head, I started seeing that the FBI says there's

71
00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:25,840
Speaker 4: no match in CODIS, and I'm like, well, how did

72
00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:30,599
Speaker 4: they run it? Well, apparently, even though the Pima County

73
00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,320
Speaker 4: Sheriff's Department sent DNA to the lab in Florida, the

74
00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,760
Speaker 4: FBI also sent DNA to a lab in Arizona, so

75
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,719
Speaker 4: they were able to run it through CODIS. So that

76
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,120
Speaker 4: was the confusion right before the show on. Anyway, I

77
00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,440
Speaker 4: think it's cleared up. So they were able to run

78
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:51,200
Speaker 4: it through CODIS because the FBI, following their own protocols,

79
00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:53,680
Speaker 4: used a lab to test.

80
00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,920
Speaker 5: This DNA in Arizona, so we're good to go. Okay,

81
00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,599
Speaker 5: well that's good. There has been so much confusion, right,

82
00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:02,359
Speaker 5: and that's what we are standing.

83
00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we'll go with it. It seems like it's

84
00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,799
Speaker 2: It also really does speak to some of these things

85
00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,159
Speaker 2: that we don't think about unless we're seeing it in

86
00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,159
Speaker 2: the real world. Right, So, jurisdiction, things that are so sacred.

87
00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,560
Speaker 2: You know, we speak a lot about DNA and how

88
00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,560
Speaker 2: it's tested, where it's tested, that that chain of command, right,

89
00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,920
Speaker 2: is it sacred? And I know, Joseph, I know you're

90
00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,240
Speaker 2: going to have plenty to say on a topic. But also,

91
00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,440
Speaker 2: you know, something we talked about last night, just the

92
00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,479
Speaker 2: crime scene in general, that being secured enough. I know

93
00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,600
Speaker 2: that's a big topic right now, and I think it's

94
00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,640
Speaker 2: an important one that we unpack, not to you know,

95
00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,520
Speaker 2: place blame, but just to really look at, just to

96
00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,320
Speaker 2: really look at these are extreme circumstances, right, Yeah, Joseph,

97
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,520
Speaker 2: how did you feel about seeing that crime scene kind

98
00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:51,919
Speaker 2: of just let to open to the.

99
00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:56,400
Speaker 6: Pub just settled to say the very least. I was.

100
00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,080
Speaker 6: I guess part of me really pursue because you know

101
00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,120
Speaker 6: the stuff that I teach every day. And it's not

102
00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:05,400
Speaker 6: like this is something.

103
00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,280
Speaker 4: New, right the wheel here, Yeah.

104
00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,359
Speaker 6: We haven't discovered fire here all right. One of the

105
00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,680
Speaker 6: basic tenets is that scene security. And even you know,

106
00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,760
Speaker 6: the average person on the street knows that if you

107
00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,080
Speaker 6: watch forensic files enough and the fact that the tape

108
00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,240
Speaker 6: went up, the tape came down, it goes back up.

109
00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,359
Speaker 6: And I'll put it to this, there's a reason we

110
00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:33,120
Speaker 6: have these rules in place because any defense attorney worth

111
00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:39,640
Speaker 6: their salt will eat the prosecution alive. Just let that

112
00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:44,040
Speaker 6: sink in just for a second. And some people will say, well,

113
00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:46,320
Speaker 6: we didn't know it was an abduction at that point, Tom,

114
00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,280
Speaker 6: and this and that you've got a missing older lady,

115
00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,800
Speaker 6: you got blood at the scene. Probably I'll secure the

116
00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:54,400
Speaker 6: scene and don't let the pool boy in.

117
00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,480
Speaker 2: And also when securing the scene, making sure that people

118
00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:03,159
Speaker 2: are wearing the proper gloves and wearing masks or wearing

119
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,159
Speaker 2: the necessary white gowns. Have them in the back of

120
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,320
Speaker 2: your car. This seems like very very basic stuff. And again,

121
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 2: just so they can place who's been walking in and out.

122
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:18,320
Speaker 2: I can imagine footprints, fingerprints, dust. This is a very

123
00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:23,280
Speaker 2: dusty location. It's a very specific location. So to say

124
00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,040
Speaker 2: that the wind and the elements haven't played a part

125
00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,960
Speaker 2: is is frankly impossible when it's been several weeks.

126
00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:31,720
Speaker 3: I only know this because I've worked with you.

127
00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:37,080
Speaker 6: Joseph, Well put it. I'll put it through this way.

128
00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:42,080
Speaker 6: You know, investigators, forensic investigators, we're not you know, we're

129
00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,480
Speaker 6: not water walkers. We drag our lives into these scenes. However,

130
00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,600
Speaker 6: we draw our shoes. It dismount from your vehicle, you

131
00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,160
Speaker 6: walk across the grass, you enter into you know, I

132
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 6: mean our hair falls off too. Okay, s we should

133
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,760
Speaker 6: we shed skin cells? You know, we have fingerprints that we.

134
00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:03,520
Speaker 4: Leave, especially in the dry climate, right.

135
00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,800
Speaker 6: Yes, absolutely, And so I heard one what was it?

136
00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:13,880
Speaker 6: I heard one forensic person DNA person calls it DNA confetti,

137
00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,640
Speaker 6: And I found that, you know, it kind of encapsulates

138
00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:22,200
Speaker 6: and that's just goes to touch DNA where we're you know,

139
00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,120
Speaker 6: I always use Jurgens as an example. They've made millions

140
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,320
Speaker 6: and millions of dollars for years and years because of

141
00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,080
Speaker 6: dry skin, right, right, And so it's it's a known

142
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,160
Speaker 6: that we're going to skin cells. It's an ongoing practice.

143
00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,840
Speaker 4: I live in the desert, and I constantly slathering myself

144
00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,920
Speaker 4: in lotion because literally it is like dandruff in some cases,

145
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,280
Speaker 4: like you just it just you shed every you know, everywhere. Yeah,

146
00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:47,520
Speaker 4: it's a problem out here.

147
00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,120
Speaker 5: If you're just joining us, this is True Crime Tonight,

148
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,640
Speaker 5: and we are joined by forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan.

149
00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,439
Speaker 5: We're in the middle of discussing DNA and the study

150
00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:02,280
Speaker 5: of what's going on at Nancy Guthrie home. Joseph, I

151
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,320
Speaker 5: have something that I feel like is gonna set your

152
00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,600
Speaker 5: hair up straight. What do you think about the fact

153
00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,280
Speaker 5: that it's been reported that people who are members of

154
00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,560
Speaker 5: the search party were leaving their gloves around the scene.

155
00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,000
Speaker 6: Okay, that's kind of a two parter. Okay, because I've

156
00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:25,080
Speaker 6: had somebody ask me this. If it's a volunteer, I

157
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,640
Speaker 6: don't have the same level of expectations or somebody that

158
00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,000
Speaker 6: is volunteering their time and they're trying to help out.

159
00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:31,200
Speaker 6: You know what you did.

160
00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:32,200
Speaker 3: What I'm saying that.

161
00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,400
Speaker 6: Because we want, we want miss Nancy found a lot.

162
00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:44,240
Speaker 6: Of course, if you were in law enforcement, you know,

163
00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,720
Speaker 6: and you're wearing tactical pants, which all of us do,

164
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,280
Speaker 6: you got pockets a lot of them. Stick your damn

165
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,160
Speaker 6: gloves in your pockets and then haul them off somewhere

166
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,920
Speaker 6: else and throw them away. You don't throw them away

167
00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,760
Speaker 6: on the ground as you're finished with them. So that's

168
00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,080
Speaker 6: a big delineation, you know. It's like everything you know,

169
00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,000
Speaker 6: even the use of force when it comes to cops.

170
00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,199
Speaker 6: Cops are held to a different standard, sure, okay than

171
00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:15,000
Speaker 6: the average Jonky citizen. So volunteering, God bless you. I

172
00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,480
Speaker 6: salute you for doing that. I wouldn't out there doing it.

173
00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,760
Speaker 6: If they're peeling their gloves off, that's one thing. However,

174
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:25,000
Speaker 6: if you've got that law enforcement that's doing it, double

175
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,200
Speaker 6: shame on you for doing that.

176
00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:27,120
Speaker 7: Right.

177
00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,600
Speaker 4: So this glove DNA, right, we don't even know, right,

178
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,559
Speaker 4: I just want to clarify this for everyone, including myself.

179
00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,520
Speaker 4: We don't even know if it belongs to the assailant, right, Like,

180
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,240
Speaker 4: we have no idea if this glove even belongs to

181
00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,760
Speaker 4: the person that's seen on the ring camp or the

182
00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,360
Speaker 4: nest footage at Nancy's home. We have no idea. So

183
00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,480
Speaker 4: there it didn't There was no hitting codis from the FBI,

184
00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,000
Speaker 4: so that we don't know who the assailant is. So

185
00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:56,960
Speaker 4: now they're going to build basically the family free right,

186
00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,520
Speaker 4: They're going to use IgG, which is the same technique

187
00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,640
Speaker 4: that helped identify you know, suspects in cases like Brian Koberger.

188
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:03,959
Speaker 3: Right.

189
00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,640
Speaker 4: Ye, So they're going to build this family tree, but

190
00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:08,800
Speaker 4: we don't even know if it's DNA that they're going

191
00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,720
Speaker 4: to build. Is even the suspect.

192
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,520
Speaker 6: No, But you know, forgive me all if I'm beating

193
00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,960
Speaker 6: this dead horse. But I always use the image of

194
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,640
Speaker 6: the investigative funnel, big, big, wide open at the beginning.

195
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,040
Speaker 6: You throw your data in there and it begins to

196
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,560
Speaker 6: narrow the field. And so even if they build out

197
00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,560
Speaker 6: a profile, you can eliminate that person. An elimination is

198
00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,000
Speaker 6: just as important as inclusion. Okay, well we do, you know,

199
00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,000
Speaker 6: And so that's really basically and you know, I'm no

200
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,120
Speaker 6: rocket scientists, and this is not complex. It is. The

201
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,960
Speaker 6: DNA itself is complex science. But I'm talking about the

202
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,280
Speaker 6: thought process that you go through. Okay, it's very simple,

203
00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,880
Speaker 6: very rudimentary. There's certain things that you include you exclude,

204
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,760
Speaker 6: but you have to run it through the litmus test

205
00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:03,600
Speaker 6: of scientific rigor. And so for me, if they pull

206
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,480
Speaker 6: a profile off these gloves, I am happy that they're

207
00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,320
Speaker 6: doing it. And if they can do, I g G.

208
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,600
Speaker 6: Knock yourself out, man, because you have the ability to

209
00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:17,960
Speaker 6: eliminate somebody. That's the beauty of it. Okay. Uh people

210
00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:19,640
Speaker 6: have asked me as well, and I don't want to

211
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:21,720
Speaker 6: go too far afield, but you know, when I'm seeing

212
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,920
Speaker 6: this guy just on the ring cam, okay or the

213
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:32,080
Speaker 6: nest cam, however, you know, I'm thinking uh phenotyping with

214
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,160
Speaker 6: him as well, where you know, you're trying to build

215
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,839
Speaker 6: out if you have an unknown and you have a sample. Uh.

216
00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:40,600
Speaker 6: And forgive me if you guys have covered this, but

217
00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,600
Speaker 6: with phenotyping, it's a broader you know, where you can

218
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:48,120
Speaker 6: actually do hair color, eye color, you can do skin tone, dude,

219
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,440
Speaker 6: that's what. Yeah, yet it is and so that puts you,

220
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,960
Speaker 6: That puts you in a ballpark. I was just teaching

221
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,679
Speaker 6: today at jack State. I was doing my section on

222
00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,920
Speaker 6: my intro my freshman students in intro Forensics, and we

223
00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:07,240
Speaker 6: were talking about forensic identology and I talked about how, uh,

224
00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:09,920
Speaker 6: you know, everybody's teeth are unique to them, even if

225
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,240
Speaker 6: you've worn braces, and so the idea is that if

226
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,720
Speaker 6: you've got somebody they're missing their wisdom teeth. You exclude

227
00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,280
Speaker 6: everybody that has their wisdom teeth, right, if you're talking

228
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,680
Speaker 6: about bite marks or even an unidentified body, it's the

229
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,440
Speaker 6: same principle. I don't believe in bite marks like I

230
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,640
Speaker 6: once did, but you understand what I'm saying. It's the

231
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,800
Speaker 6: same principle. And this is something that carries through with

232
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:34,520
Speaker 6: all with all forensic practice. And here's here's the thing

233
00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:39,320
Speaker 6: we can talk about in classroom every single day. But

234
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,000
Speaker 6: are you going to put it to practice in the field,

235
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,120
Speaker 6: because if not, it's not worth gunpowder to blow it

236
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,480
Speaker 6: to hell? And so every single day you have to

237
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,479
Speaker 6: you have to hold onto this and practice it every day. Man,

238
00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:53,439
Speaker 6: It's not just about learning that you did at the

239
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,160
Speaker 6: academy or whatever special courses you want to Are you

240
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,400
Speaker 6: going to do it in the field and do it consistently?

241
00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,560
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. Stephanie, what's your thought?

242
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,840
Speaker 5: Oh, I think we're actually having Stephanie's going to reconnect Joseph.

243
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,240
Speaker 5: What else should we be thinking about forensically in terms

244
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:13,400
Speaker 5: of the crime scene?

245
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,760
Speaker 6: Well, okay, so there's two types. I'm going to stick

246
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,080
Speaker 6: with DNA just for a second, just indulge me. So

247
00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,680
Speaker 6: sourcing of DNA. We've got touch DNA, which is a

248
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,680
Speaker 6: partial a partial strand okay, because it's dead all right,

249
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:37,400
Speaker 6: skin cells are dead, right, So with that, with that

250
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 6: the source of the actual DNA, if you have DNA

251
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,440
Speaker 6: that's really rich. You know what I thought of, guys

252
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,800
Speaker 6: when I saw those gloves, because I've worked in the

253
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,360
Speaker 6: morgue for so long and out in the field sweat.

254
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,120
Speaker 6: Sweat is so rich in DNA. It's right up there

255
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,600
Speaker 6: with blood and salive and semen and all those things

256
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,880
Speaker 6: that we talk about. I'm hoping that you know, guy

257
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,960
Speaker 6: in the house allegedly or somebody who's in that house

258
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,720
Speaker 6: for proxibly forty minutes, do you have to go to

259
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,560
Speaker 6: the bathroom? I know that sounds forgive me, I'm not

260
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,120
Speaker 6: trying to be crass, but did they inspect that area there? Okay?

261
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:13,760
Speaker 6: All those things that you have to think about.

262
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,600
Speaker 5: There are so many things and so many details, and

263
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 5: we will keep you abreast of all of them. Stick

264
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,760
Speaker 5: around because when we come back, we're going to get

265
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,160
Speaker 5: into a debate that has been kind of raging again,

266
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,160
Speaker 5: and it's about Kurt Cobain's death and was it staged.

267
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,200
Speaker 5: Forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan walks us through it True

268
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:40,920
Speaker 5: Crime Tonight.

269
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,520
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

270
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,960
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

271
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:52,560
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong.

272
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,360
Speaker 3: And body Move in. Listen.

273
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:59,120
Speaker 2: We have forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and host of

274
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,440
Speaker 2: the hit podcast body Bags here with us again. There

275
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,400
Speaker 2: is so much to sort through, Joseph case wise, right now,

276
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,880
Speaker 2: I feel like we're having an explosion of forensics that

277
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,960
Speaker 2: we're all kind of, you know, getting through real time,

278
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 2: not only just here on the show, but I think

279
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:23,200
Speaker 2: we're all being inundated in the news and on social media.

280
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,920
Speaker 2: It's kind of coming at us from all places. So

281
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,240
Speaker 2: sometimes just kind of getting the opportunity to be with

282
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,200
Speaker 2: you and calms us came to me.

283
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 6: So I'm happy. I'm happy about it, you know a

284
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:37,440
Speaker 6: WHI because the public is learning.

285
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it sure does.

286
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:42,680
Speaker 3: It sure does.

287
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,320
Speaker 2: And by the way, if anybody has any questions eight

288
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,680
Speaker 2: eight eight three one crime, please call us live or

289
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,880
Speaker 2: you could always keep those talkbacks coming. You're doing a

290
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,240
Speaker 2: great job. Body, Where should we go, Kurt Cobain, Let's

291
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:56,720
Speaker 2: do it.

292
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,440
Speaker 4: I loved Nirvana loved, love, love and anyway, So if

293
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,960
Speaker 4: you don't know who Kurt Cobain is, he was the

294
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:09,080
Speaker 4: lead singer Nirvauna. Okay, And in nineteen ninety four, on

295
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:14,040
Speaker 4: my twenty first birthday, mind you, April fifth, nineteen ninety four,

296
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,960
Speaker 4: he was twenty seven years old in his Seattle home

297
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,800
Speaker 4: during the height of his career. All right, he was

298
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,840
Speaker 4: like king of like the Seattle grun scene okay, the

299
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,560
Speaker 4: King County. Well he killed himself okay, with a shotgun,

300
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,320
Speaker 4: all right, and he was found like three days later. Okay,

301
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,119
Speaker 4: The King County Medical Examiner's office ruled his death of

302
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 4: suicide caused by a self inflicted gunshot wound. The Seattle

303
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,239
Speaker 4: Police Department has long upheld that finding. Now there's been

304
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,960
Speaker 4: a lot of controversy about it over the years, right,

305
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:56,040
Speaker 4: a lot. So a private team of independent forensic scientists

306
00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:01,560
Speaker 4: have recently concluded a review of Kirk Cobaine's autopsy report.

307
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:02,080
Speaker 3: Okay.

308
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,240
Speaker 4: They looked at the crime scene photographs and all the

309
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:11,639
Speaker 4: investigative materials, and they have questions. They have questions, you guys,

310
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,160
Speaker 4: and it is like explosive it took away.

311
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,720
Speaker 2: And by the way, just for some context in case

312
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,440
Speaker 2: you're not super familiar with Nirvania. You know my mom,

313
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:26,320
Speaker 2: for example, Courtney Love the Blonde, Remember she was like

314
00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,760
Speaker 2: that rock and roll horrormains, Yeah, remains a rock and

315
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,439
Speaker 2: roll icon. She was exactly the lead singer and whole.

316
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 2: They were married, they had a child right off.

317
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:38,520
Speaker 3: Frances be taken.

318
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:45,200
Speaker 4: She just married Tony Hawk's son and very cold. Yes,

319
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,360
Speaker 4: and she's beautiful. She looks just like her dad. Oh

320
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,840
Speaker 4: my goodness, she has those eyes.

321
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:52,240
Speaker 3: I'm remembering correctly.

322
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,760
Speaker 2: I hope her life turned out beautiful and I'm sure did,

323
00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,360
Speaker 2: and I wish her so much, very.

324
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,000
Speaker 4: Well adjusted, just a woman. She's great, and she's got

325
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,760
Speaker 4: a baby now. And Tony wrote the sweetest note to

326
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,639
Speaker 4: Kurt Cobain about it, like on its Instagram. It was like,

327
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,280
Speaker 4: are your daughters amazing? My son is amazing?

328
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:11,840
Speaker 3: They're in love.

329
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,640
Speaker 4: It was so sweet. Anyway, their review has led this

330
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 4: like forensic scientist like this peer review has led them

331
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,359
Speaker 4: to conclude that Kurt Cobain's death should probably be ruled

332
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,879
Speaker 4: a homicide, not suicide. Joseph, is your hot? Is your

333
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:31,080
Speaker 4: mind like exploding right now?

334
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:32,720
Speaker 3: Yes? What did you say?

335
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,400
Speaker 2: His hair was going to stand up? Is your hair

336
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,919
Speaker 2: standing up Joseph.

337
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,920
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, it kind of commonly stands up there.

338
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:40,960
Speaker 7: You go, what do you.

339
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:43,680
Speaker 3: What do you think you.

340
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 6: It's it's uh, well, let me tell you something, Okay.

341
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 6: This is not like some author that you know, sweeps

342
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,239
Speaker 6: in out of the darkness and decides to write some

343
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 6: kind of tell all novel, you know, to make a

344
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 6: quick book. It's not what you're talking about here. The

345
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 6: reason this is so intriguing is that this is a

346
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:11,920
Speaker 6: team of people with a forensic background and they have

347
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,399
Speaker 6: actually written an article and it's kind of a PenPoint article,

348
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 6: and it's in a gear review journal. It's actually an

349
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 6: International Journal of Forensic Sciences. It's a and it's called

350
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,440
Speaker 6: the title of the article is actually called a Multidisciplinary

351
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,680
Speaker 6: Analysis of Kurt Cobaine's Death. And I know this sounds

352
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 6: like a mouthful. That's actually a short title compared to

353
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,679
Speaker 6: some scientific journalist. But I've read this journal. I mean

354
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,360
Speaker 6: it's something that people in my field are very familiar with.

355
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 6: This journal in the American Academy of Forensic Science journal.

356
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,800
Speaker 6: So yeah, this is not This is not like some

357
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,800
Speaker 6: you know, fly by night situation where people are you

358
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 6: writing something. This is something that somebody has purposed and

359
00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 6: taking their time. The biggest takeaway for me, I think

360
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:07,919
Speaker 6: is the combination of firearms and heroin and there are

361
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 6: things that are at the scene. And we know that

362
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 6: that Kurt had had issues he did with opiate addiction, yeah, depression, Yeah,

363
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,639
Speaker 6: he had. He had contemplated you know, self harm on

364
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 6: several occasions and had talked about it. He's very he

365
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 6: was very portured. And again some of the best artists

366
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 6: are right.

367
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that whole time period was a little moody too, right,

368
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,440
Speaker 2: and kind of set the stage. It was grunge, it

369
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:45,879
Speaker 2: was Seattle, It was rainy and unshowered and you know,

370
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 2: really tight skinny jeans, you know, with the low waist.

371
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, Kirk Coop welcome.

372
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,400
Speaker 6: I actually welcomed that period after the hairband. So that's

373
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 6: my sense.

374
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 3: But heavy on the drugs, right, So change about it.

375
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 6: Right, very interestingpective that sort of thing.

376
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,360
Speaker 4: Basically, what they're alleging, or what they're what their findings

377
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,400
Speaker 4: you know, came with, was that what they think happened

378
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 4: was that he was forcibly administered like a massive heroin

379
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,239
Speaker 4: dows to incapacitate him.

380
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 3: Right, That's what they're thinking because they find.

381
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,479
Speaker 6: So it was like, give me I think it was

382
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 6: I'm going to get the number wrong, but it was

383
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 6: I'm not going to give you the specific numbers out there.

384
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 6: It's like one one point three non three non milligram

385
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 6: I'll get one point three eight or three non milligrams

386
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 6: per leader. Okay, that was the level. That's three times

387
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,959
Speaker 6: leath level. Okay, So let's understand heroin. So when you

388
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 6: see that level on his talk chart, it actually comes

389
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 6: up as morphine. If anybody reads it and they say, well,

390
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 6: it's sit in heroin, it's morphine. Morphine is a derivative,

391
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 6: it's a it's a base elemental underpinning of heroin. So

392
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 6: when we read these reports, we're looking at the level

393
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 6: of morphine. Okay, highly toxic. And here here's the rub

394
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 6: with this. All the needles at the scene were yes.

395
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 4: So all the syringers had their caps on them. So

396
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 4: how was he able to give himself this fatal dose

397
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 4: of you know, this lethal dose of heroines heroin and

398
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 4: be totally capable of putting the caps back on the syringes.

399
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 4: It doesn't make any sense.

400
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,360
Speaker 2: I see, I see, Oh my goodness. And by the way,

401
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 2: he was a pretty big. And I don't mean this

402
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 2: disparaging Lee, but he was a real heroin addict, right,

403
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 2: So the likelihood of getting.

404
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 6: Likewise, and that's a big part to this. It's a

405
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 6: huge part, huge because looks, if any one of us,

406
00:23:54,720 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 6: you know, injected this level of heroin, we'd be dead.

407
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 6: I've spoken to I've interviewed heroin edics on the scenes

408
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 6: that I've been on, and they've got boluses on board

409
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 6: that would, you know, make really strong people buckle. But

410
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 6: yet they're having a conversation with me. Okay, all right,

411
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 6: So and I don't know what their levels were, so

412
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 6: just give me a little latitude here. The trick to this, though,

413
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 6: I think, is trying to understand because what heroin does,

414
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 6: it is a depressant, so it compromises your motor skills

415
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 6: and your thought process. So the question is, could he

416
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 6: have injected this amount, which is what King County Medical

417
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 6: Examiner is alleging, Okay, by saying that they're not changing

418
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 6: the thing, injected this amount, recap a syringe, gone over

419
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 6: and retrieved a shotgun and self inflicted with that, is

420
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 6: that plausible? Well, you have to look at what his

421
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 6: baseline is, Okay, So if he had been through like

422
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 6: rehab and he had cleaned cleaned himself. Maybe he's on

423
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 6: a steady diet of methadone or something like this to

424
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 6: knock down the urge. And I don't know that, but

425
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 6: if he is, if he is using regularly, his baseline

426
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 6: is going to be much higher than the rest of it.

427
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,479
Speaker 6: So we're talking, we're talking about seconds. Now. Let me

428
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 6: throw this on you real quick. I've investigated cases that

429
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 6: were based in there used to. There was a book

430
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 6: that came out many years ago, was very controversial. It's

431
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 6: called Final Exit. And one of the things that they

432
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 6: promote in this book, and they refer to self harm

433
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 6: as self deliverance. They had to redundancy built in and

434
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 6: when Kirk took when Kirk died, let me phrase it

435
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 6: that way, that was right at the height of fatal exit,

436
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 6: our final exit. And so redundancy means like I worked

437
00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 6: a couple of cases where I had let it drough

438
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 6: a or bath one in particular, she took I don't know,

439
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 6: probably ninety tablets of ambient, all out of blister packs

440
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 6: that have been given to her in every other drug

441
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 6: She sat in the bath. Well, the bathtub is the

442
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 6: redundant part. So if you get yeah, it's strowning, and

443
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 6: we found evidence of both. So you know, can these

444
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,959
Speaker 6: two things exist in the same in the same sphere.

445
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 4: Well, we talked about this back in the nineties too, can.

446
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 4: I mean when we talked about this back in the

447
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 4: nineties too, I remember I remember this distinctly, saying, yeah,

448
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 4: why would he given himself this heroin shot if he

449
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 4: was just going to kill himself? And my friend Tony

450
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 4: I'll never forget it was like, because if he chickened out,

451
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 4: at least the heroin would have killed him. And I

452
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 4: was like, oh my god, it was so fatalistic. Right,

453
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 4: So that's the that's the redundancy part.

454
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 6: It is the redundancy, and that's that's kind of the

455
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 6: way I have viewed this for a long time. And look,

456
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 6: whether I agree or disagree with study, I think it's

457
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 6: wonderful that they're looking at this because you know, like

458
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 6: you body, like our buddy Adam, they're you guys are

459
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 6: huge fans. I'm not as big a fan. I love

460
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 6: the music, but there are questions that always linger about

461
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 6: the saying, and there's a mythology that builds up with

462
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 6: everybody that does. There's still mythology with Elvis, you know,

463
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 6: for years and years, and it always with Hendrix and

464
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 6: with Morrison and with James Joplin, Mama Cass, you know,

465
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 6: anybody you want to talk about, there's always, you know,

466
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 6: this thing that comes up with them.

467
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 4: So one of the things that the team that wrote

468
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 4: this paper are citing is the autopsy findings, which included

469
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 4: pulmonary fluid, which is fluid on the lungs and particular

470
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 4: hemorrhaging in the eyes and brain and liver damage. And

471
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 4: what they're saying is that this is more consistent with

472
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 4: prolonged hypoxia, which is like an oxygen deprivation, right, And

473
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 4: they're saying that's more consistent with a heroin overdose than

474
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 4: an instaneous walk on death.

475
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 3: Is that correct?

476
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 4: I mean you yeah, you're the you're the forensic death investment.

477
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 6: Positive is deprivation of oxygen going to the brain, and

478
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 6: that that does fit, that that is in alignment with

479
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 6: heroin because, like I said, one of the things that

480
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 6: you'll see, and uh, forgive me, I'm not trying to

481
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 6: be graphic here and I won't be, but one thing

482
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 6: you see with heroin o d's in particular. Huh. You'll

483
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 6: see from essentially the nippe line up up to the

484
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 6: top of the head, the person will become cyanoudic. You'll

485
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 6: see like this purple discoloration. You also see it would

486
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 6: congestive heart failure took and the eyes will be highly

487
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 6: congested as well. Uh. And that's not that's not something

488
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 6: that's like wow, you know, if if you have a

489
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 6: depressant like Heroin around, that would not be unexpected. This

490
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 6: is the thing, though, would kurts and lungs. Most of

491
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 6: the tom with opioid ods, you get really heavy lungs.

492
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 6: His lungs were within normal ranges for person his size

493
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 6: for a male. Interesting and oddly enough, his left lung,

494
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 6: which has only two lobes, was heavier than the right lung.

495
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 6: It's generally the reverse, but they're not outside what we

496
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 6: would consider the norms for an adult male. But the

497
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 6: weights were kind of reversed, which I found, you know,

498
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 6: kind of peripherally interesting.

499
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 4: I think they're also saying his hands were pretty clean,

500
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 4: like there was no they do we know if we

501
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 4: tested for gunshot residue of his hands.

502
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 6: I'm hoping they did. It's been yeah, we do GSR.

503
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 6: Most of the time, any medical legal office that is

504
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 6: worth their salt is going to do a GSR on

505
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 6: any because our working assumption, guys, and this is in

506
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 6: any case is that And this is one of the

507
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 6: underpinnings of our practice is that every death is a

508
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 6: homicide until proven otherwise. And it's really easy for people

509
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 6: to jump to a conclusion, and particularly you know, there's

510
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 6: this kind of note that's left behind, and notes are

511
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 6: the exception and not the norm. And self harm, okay,

512
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 6: they are the exception most of the time. When people

513
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 6: decide to do it, they do it. Now, I've worked

514
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 6: plenty cases with notes, but I've worked more without than with.

515
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 6: So that's that's an interesting piece too.

516
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 4: And there's some interest note. Well, they're saying that the

517
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 4: suicide note. The team claims that the final lines, like

518
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 4: the final four lines, appear like they're stylistically different. And

519
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 4: I think I always kind of equick because it's been

520
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 4: that's been talked about in many documentaries. I always equated

521
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 4: that hint to him the heroine, like kicking in or something.

522
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 4: But maybe I just don't have like an understanding of that,

523
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 4: But that's what I always thought. But it is important

524
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 4: to know that in March of nineteen ninety four when

525
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 4: they were in Rome, court Cobaine did overdose on champagne

526
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,239
Speaker 4: and real hypnol and Courtney Love, his wife, said that

527
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 4: that was a suicide attempt. So that's important to know.

528
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 4: And the medical Examiner are standing by their friendings.

529
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 3: Complicated business, my gosh.

530
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: And we have Joseph Scott Morgan with us answering all

531
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: of our forensics questions, of which we have many. So

532
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: the search will continue, obviously for Nancy Guthrie and again

533
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: Captain Obvious.

534
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 3: Our hearts were so with the Guthrie family. It's harrowing.

535
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: I find it, you know, I find it so hard

536
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: even in my own heart. I can only imagine for

537
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 2: a family so and also for the many who are

538
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: also missing their loved ones. You know we're thinking of

539
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: you and sending you prayers. Switching gears. Joseph to New Mexico.

540
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: We were talking last night, you know, in some detail

541
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: about the Zoro Ranch where Jeffrey Epstein has his first

542
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 2: kind of well his ranch. Basically, it's sort of the

543
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 2: pre Island Island and if you will, and you know,

544
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 2: there's a lot of allegations that have now come out

545
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 2: in these files and really some hirowing forensic thoughts, meaning

546
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: specifically young girls potentially buried near and or around this ranch.

547
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 3: How is that even possible?

548
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: And would it even be possible to find them if

549
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: that was the case, because it's in such a remote location. Yeah,

550
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: it's a lot.

551
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 5: Just Joseph, I'm going to catch people up just very

552
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 5: briefly on the new news and then we'll get into

553
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 5: everything that Stephanie laid out. So New Mexico's Land commissioner,

554
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 5: they just formally asked both federal and state authorities to

555
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 5: investigate this state land that's near Epstein's former Zoro ranch.

556
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 5: And this happened after an anonymous email was found in

557
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 5: the newly released Jeffrey Epstein files, and this anonymous email

558
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 5: claims that two girls' bodies are buried near the property.

559
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh. So I just wanted people to understand that.

560
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 5: And then Joseph, back to what Stephanie was saying, can

561
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 5: you speak about the scope of the search and the

562
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 5: land and the implications gouts.

563
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 6: I got to tell you, this is a discussion I've

564
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 6: been having for four years. Oh really, And I'm glad. Yeah,

565
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 6: I mean because somebody doesn't suddenly grow conscience. If you

566
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 6: think for two seconds it's somebody that is dealing in

567
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 6: tracking of young women for the purposes of sex, that

568
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 6: they wouldn't kill, you better rethink your position in life.

569
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 6: And I thought this for years, and I've talked about

570
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 6: it with my colleagues. Yeah, it's it's not an island,

571
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 6: but it is kind of an island. It's surrounded by desert.

572
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 6: You're talking this place is about thirty miles outside of

573
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 6: Santa Fe. It's vast. It's almost eight thousand acres. Guys,

574
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 6: if you can wrap your minds around that, this area

575
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 6: that we're talking about, one of the things that they're

576
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 6: going to be faced with if they decide to move forward,

577
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 6: and that's an if. If they decide to move forward

578
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 6: with this is this land. Mining is a big deal

579
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 6: in New Mexico. It has been a big deal for

580
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 6: a long long time. Dollars to donuts. I can almost

581
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 6: guarantee you there are probably abandoned mines on this property,

582
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 6: probably got wells, old wells that are out there any

583
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 6: number of places. And not to mention we were just

584
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 6: chatting about this. There's a reason people you could call

585
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 6: this a ranch, I guess if you wanted to. But

586
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 6: there's a region that the reason that the wealthy call

587
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 6: things ranches, and they might have livestock, for instance, they

588
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 6: might grow cattle or grow crops rather and raise livestock,

589
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 6: and that there's tax purposes behind that. You get brakes

590
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 6: on that sort of thing, so you could have it

591
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 6: for that purpose air quotes, but it's centered in this

592
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 6: location that's so very isolated, and if for those that

593
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 6: have never been to New Mexico, everything looks so after

594
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 6: all of this time, they're going to have to do

595
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 6: serious surveying. They're literally you guys have heard of talk

596
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 6: about forensics, how we do grid searches. Just imagine this

597
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 6: is potentially everything is a crime scene here. So the

598
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 6: whole thing would have to be gridded off and you

599
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 6: would have to have teams that would handle each grid

600
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 6: of this thing, and you're going to look for topographic changes.

601
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 6: There's going to be forensic anthropologists and geologists that are

602
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 6: going to be involved. You're going to have to call

603
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 6: them in to examine just the topography to see what

604
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 6: doesn't look like everything else around it. If there's a

605
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 6: depressed area that's not normally there it the vegetation, which

606
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 6: there's not a lot of out there has been compromise anyway.

607
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 6: If there's changes there, we talk about things like purbation,

608
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 6: which is what happens beneath the earth. As the earth turns,

609
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 6: the soil turns beneath it. You don't perceive it. Things

610
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 6: change relative to that. You've got hydrology that comes into impact.

611
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 6: They do get rain out there, so the landscape changes.

612
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 6: It's a daunting, almost herculean task.

613
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 3: The thing clarity, it's in the middle of nowhere.

614
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 2: Also, you know we're all talking, we're also talking about years.

615
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 2: This is information that is now years old. So to

616
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 2: go back in time and to find God willing, you know,

617
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 2: these lost souls. If that's the case, you know that's

618
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 2: it's a herculean task. How is it possible that we're

619
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 2: not already doing it?

620
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, not to go far field, y'all, but

621
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 6: if you know, you think about these young women that

622
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 6: will edgedly came from places like Eastern Europe. I've always

623
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 6: my contention has always been, and there have been people

624
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 6: when I've said this, they said, well, they were paid money.

625
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 6: You know, what do you do do You just cut

626
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 6: them loose? You're talking about private planes coming and going.

627
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 6: There's no tracking. You don't know who's really on these things.

628
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 6: So what do you do with them? Do you take

629
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 6: them back to Tomes Square and say here's some money,

630
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 6: good luck getting back to wherever it is you come

631
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 6: from in Eastern Europe. You know Virginia, I can't remember Goufre. Yeah,

632
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 6: she mentioned that she was involved in a sexual encounter

633
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 6: with two girls that could not speak English. So as

634
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 6: an investigator, I'm thinking, okay, well, you don't know the language,

635
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 6: You're in this foreign country, and for whatever reason, somebody

636
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 6: is compelled to take your life because things get out

637
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 6: of hand, because your basement for morality is so very

638
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 6: low and disgusting that you would do harm to somebody potentially.

639
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 6: That's what I'm really in stuit in and where are

640
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 6: they out there?

641
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 3: That's all right?

642
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 5: And to that end, when you're talking about girls from

643
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 5: Eastern Europe, which there have been many, many references too.

644
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 5: In this email from twenty nineteen, what it alleges is

645
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 5: that it's two foreign girls who are buried near the

646
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 5: Zoro ranch. And this is very graphic, so turn this

647
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 5: off right now if you are with a child. But

648
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 5: also the sender, who's reportedly a former ranch staffer. They

649
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 5: claim that the girls were killed by strangulation during rough

650
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 5: fetish sex upon orders of Jeffrey Epstein and Gilaene Maxwell.

651
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:51,240
Speaker 5: One other point in this email was that also seven

652
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 5: different videos were offered that allegedly showed Jeffrey Epstein abusing

653
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 5: minors on audio. File was called Girl from Bay Area

654
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 5: Suicide Attempt Confession to Madam g and was offered to

655
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 5: whomever would like to buy it for the price of

656
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 5: one bitcoin. So I just wanted to get that information

657
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 5: out as you were explaining the compact situation of someone

658
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 5: brought out deposited at a ramp.

659
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 2: And there's also been chatter this is now chatter, but

660
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 2: also popping up within these files that it's also someplace

661
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 2: where experiments have happened.

662
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 3: And I have no.

663
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,240
Speaker 2: Idea what that means. But that's a pretty scary word.

664
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 2: I don't even know what that would ponure our brain.

665
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 2: My brain, i should say, is trying to connect a

666
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,479
Speaker 2: dot or wondering is there a dot to the dentist's chair,

667
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 2: or you know, just sort of learning that his most

668
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 2: recent ex girlfriend, who amassed his fortune somehow is a dentist.

669
00:39:58,760 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 3: There seems to be something with t.

670
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 6: You're conjuring up images of Marathon Man, which is one

671
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 6: of the most disturbing movies I've ever seen with Dustin Hoffman.

672
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 6: And to your point, step you guys make a great

673
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,919
Speaker 6: point in the sense that you're using the word young,

674
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 6: and I think a lot of people would say, well,

675
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 6: how do we know who they are? Well? And from

676
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 6: an anti anthropology or anthropologic standpoint, forensic anti apology, we

677
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 6: can sex these skeletons. We can also age the skeletons,

678
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 6: you know, if you just think about Dentisian like the

679
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 6: eruption of twelve your molars, all those sorts of things,

680
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 6: have they had dental treatment, and you can kind of

681
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 6: go down the checklist, you know. And also you know,

682
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 6: with strangulation, if you have no soft tissue. And forgive

683
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 6: me for being so graphic, but that's that's a hill

684
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 6: that's hard to climb with skeletal remains. What other kind

685
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,919
Speaker 6: of trauma might there be, But just the mere fact

686
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 6: that you've got a young person and skeleton there, I

687
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 6: don't know about y'all. I got questions, all right. I

688
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 6: don't care what cause of death is at this point,

689
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 6: why would you have this, Uh, the fact that this

690
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 6: came from a worker, and I'd mentioned this as well.

691
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 6: Forgive me for going over the same territory, but this

692
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 6: is not a couple of good old boys going out

693
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 6: with shovels. Okay, if this is a ranch, there's heavy

694
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 6: equipment there. You're talking about skid steers, bobcats, maybe bulldozers,

695
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 6: front end loaders. You're talking about trenching out areas. Maybe

696
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 6: there's a burn pit. And who's going to know that

697
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 6: you're burning anything. It's eight thousand acres.

698
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 3: Guys, in the middle of nowhere, in.

699
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 6: The middle of nowhere. Yeah, yep, you're absolutely right. You're

700
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 6: talking about try to run away.

701
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 3: You couldn't. You wouldn't mean it's it's just in the island.

702
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 3: I mean.

703
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 6: Bingo here. It's a it's an island in the desert.

704
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 6: Unlike Little Saint James, you know, because people even had

705
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 6: us it's about Little Saint James, right. I remember when

706
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 6: they first started throwing out the videography relative to that,

707
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 6: people were saying, oh, look there's a bobcat there. They're doing.

708
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 6: There's all kinds of things, you know, And I don't

709
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 6: know that there was ever proof of course, you got

710
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 6: an apex apex predators that swarm around that island in

711
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 6: the form of sharks, and okay, so that's that's another

712
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 6: story altogether. All right. I'm not saying anything happen there.

713
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 6: But now you've got this communication that's in this this

714
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 6: tranche of information that's come out. Yeah, I think it

715
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 6: needs to be looked at. Yeah, you know, a little

716
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 6: less chatter about him and a little more chatter about

717
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 6: these missing are unaccounted for people.

718
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: Man, Exactly, it's so much bigger than a specific individual

719
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 2: or even individuals, you know.

720
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 3: It's so much larger.

721
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: Let's focus on the victims, and they're giving us a

722
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: bit of a roadmap right now.

723
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, but if they pay the bitcoin, they'll

724
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 4: apparently is as a minor saying properly, if they pay

725
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 4: the bitcoin, they'll turn over like where these bodies are.

726
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 5: Is that this was taken information taken from a twenty

727
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 5: nineteen anonymous email. Okay, okay, so that is the context

728
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 5: in which this information came out.

729
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 3: So I don't know how to answer your question, you.

730
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 4: Start, Yeah, yeah, we're starting.

731
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 5: Well, I will say that the New Mexico LAMB Commissioner

732
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 5: Stephanie Garcia Richard. She emphasized that obviously, as we've been

733
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 5: talking about, neither the ranch nor the adjacent state land

734
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 5: has been searched, and she described the state land as

735
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 5: potentially a buffer to hide what occurred on the ranch

736
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 5: and said, quote, if state land was used for criminal activity,

737
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 5: that is definitely something New Mexicans need to know. Those

738
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 5: are answers the victims and survivors need to have. So

739
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,720
Speaker 5: and it seems like this may be happening, this search.

740
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 3: I wonder they like.

741
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 4: Ground penetrating radar, you know, things like that. Things like that.

742
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 4: They be very expensive, it.

743
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 6: Might be too far down range, but they would use

744
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 6: for buried bodies. We use methane detectors as well that

745
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 6: go into the earth and you can see if their

746
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 6: decomposing remains there.

747
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 4: That makes sense.

748
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 6: So I don't know.

749
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 2: I was thinking of you know the Valo case, Lori

750
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 2: Valo and Chad Dave Bell, and you know the two

751
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 2: beautiful children who lost their lives who were found in

752
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:40,800
Speaker 2: a pretty vaccinator much smaller and yeah, I mean entyly

753
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 2: and JJ. We never really covered that either. We should

754
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 2: come back to that one at a different time. But anyway,

755
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 2: they were able to find those remains definitely in a

756
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 2: smaller area though.

757
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a much smaller area, and it was

758
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 4: in his backyard, right, and there was some fire yeah,

759
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 4: fire pit, fire pit. Yeah. I mean this is like

760
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 4: the New Mexico desert in the middle. Like really, it's

761
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 4: a very arid environment. I just don't know. And you know,

762
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 4: decades have passed, right, so it's not like there's going

763
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 4: to be fresh ground.

764
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 3: Right. What was he doing here in.

765
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 2: The first place, allegedly, Like what did he even have

766
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 2: this ranch?

767
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 3: Four?

768
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 2: Who gave him this ranch? Why did Epstein have this

769
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: ranch in the first place? Well, I mean you could

770
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 2: have ranches. I mean people have ranches. You're allowed to

771
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 2: have an answer to that question. I know that there

772
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 2: is and that's an expensive branch and it's ground zero

773
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 2: where the story starts.

774
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 4: It's an insidious place.

775
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 5: Right, And he purchased it back I think it was

776
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety three, And so.

777
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 3: This goes back alone and everybody's known it.

778
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 4: What do you think was done there?

779
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 2: I don't know, but it does seem like a lot

780
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 2: of sex trafficking has been happening and humans have been

781
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 2: through there in some way or another, Whether it's for

782
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 2: a select group of maniacs, or if it's a part

783
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: of a worldwide, larger operation, which is what the suggestion

784
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 2: is in this moment.

785
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 3: If you're just.

786
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 2: Looking at the totality thus far, again, we're not entirely through.

787
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 4: Joseph, thank you so much for joining us tonight. As always,

788
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,240
Speaker 4: it's our biggest pleasure. Anyone interested in more true crime, forensics,

789
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 4: deep dives and who isn't you can find them on

790
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 4: Joseph Scott Morgan's amazing hit podcast it's called body Bags.

791
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 4: You can also find him on YouTube at Joseph Scott

792
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 4: Morgan and his channel is called body Bags with Joseph

793
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 4: Scott Morgan. Keep it right here, we have much more

794
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 4: to come True Crime Tonight.

795
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,760
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

796
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,280
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie here with Courtney

797
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: Armstrong and Body Movin. We also of course have Taha,

798
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 2: our favorite producer, and Sam and Adam in the control room.

799
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 3: Listen.

800
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 2: If you miss any of the first hour of the show,

801
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 2: please make sure.

802
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 3: You you can just check it out as a podcast.

803
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 2: And if you want to join us live eight eight

804
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 2: eight three one Crime in the talkbacks. You guys have

805
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 2: been crushing it with the talkbacks, so keep those coming.

806
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 2: In fact, let's go to one right now.

807
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 8: Hey, this is Lisa calling from Pittsburgh. I'm calling about

808
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 8: the school shooting case where the dad is being charged.

809
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 8: I think that's phenomenal to look at the entire situation

810
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 8: and how different people play a role in this in

811
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 8: warning signs. However, I feel like there's a contradiction and

812
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 8: I wanted to know your thoughts on it. I will

813
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 8: never understand why we decide to charge some kids as

814
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 8: an adult, But if we're saying, on one hand that

815
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 8: his father is to blame for bad parenting, are we

816
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 8: saying he's a kid?

817
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 3: Yes? Excellent? Oh wooys excelling.

818
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, that is an interesting right, This is the contradiction.

819
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 2: It actually all feeds into what I think are two

820
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 2: of the crazier making parts of justice. It's jurisdiction because

821
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: that's complicated, and then also children and frontal lobes and

822
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:25,760
Speaker 2: sentencing and how that can be so different from area

823
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 2: to area. Certainly a state to say, but you know,

824
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,919
Speaker 2: even county to county, so let alone federally. And yeah,

825
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 2: this is a complete, perfect example of a contradiction, and

826
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: I'm surprised it hasn't been called out prior.

827
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 4: Well, maybe the defense attorneys for Colin will, you know,

828
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 4: use that way to give them a defense there, Emily, Well.

829
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know, Lisa, that is such a

830
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 3: great question.

831
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 5: Actually, Lisa, I'd love to ask Jarrett to find if

832
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 5: there is an answer to that, because I am it

833
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 5: just never crossed my mind and it's such an interesting point.

834
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a very interesting point. Thank you for that

835
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 4: talk Backley Sutton, I'm sorry called gamily very interesting.

836
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 5: So just to catch people up and then we have

837
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 5: a lot to talk about. Today was the second day

838
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 5: of the trial of Colin Gray. Now Colin Gray is

839
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 5: the father. As Lisa points it out, Colin Gray is

840
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 5: the father of Colt Gray. Now Colt Gray was a

841
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 5: fourteen year old Appalachi High School student who is the

842
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:35,320
Speaker 5: alleged shooter of a very tragic event that happened September fourth,

843
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:42,399
Speaker 5: twenty twenty four, and allegedly the shooter the son.

844
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 3: He openly opened fire.

845
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 5: He killed two student victims, Mason Shermerhorn and Christina Anglo,

846
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 5: and two teacher victims, Richard Aspinwell and Christina A. Remay,

847
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 5: as well as injuring nine others. So that is what

848
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 5: the son is alleged to have done. Now the father

849
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 5: is the one who is on trial right now, Colin Gray,

850
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 5: and he Colin Gray faces twenty nine counts for providing

851
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 5: the assault style rifle and failing to act on warning

852
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 5: signs about his son's mental health and violent tendencies. So

853
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 5: there's points of what went down in court today. Unless

854
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 5: you guys have thoughts right now that you want to share.

855
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 2: No, but it is one of those wake up call cases, right,

856
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: so it's important that we unpack it.

857
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 3: It's really specific.

858
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it seems as though this particular family has

859
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 2: you know, really every red flag was ignored. But it's

860
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 2: important that we go through them. I mean because yeah,

861
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 2: it's like this is interesting.

862
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 4: So like on the nose right too, right, I.

863
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 2: Just how is it even possible that you were this

864
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 2: reckless with your parenting? How do you stand there in

865
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:13,439
Speaker 2: front of other people's you know, right, their kids were

866
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 2: lost because of this? I can only imagine, so not

867
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 2: looking even to please blame, I can imagine he must

868
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 2: know this absolutely, And even today in court, Stephanie, there

869
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 2: was a staggerant. Twenty three witnesses. This included two teachers,

870
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: that included multiple students, and they described the immediate aftermath

871
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 2: of this shooting and its emotional toll that is today happening.

872
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 2: I'll just give you a few points that these witnesses

873
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 2: came up and shared. A ninth grade girl, so she

874
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 2: was one year out of middle school. A ninth grade

875
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 2: girl described seeing a hole in her wrist and screaming,

876
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,359
Speaker 2: I was worried I was going to die and how

877
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 2: that would affect my parents because my dad has a

878
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 2: heart problem. Another student testified of seeing blood on herself,

879
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 2: on her classmates and screaming at the Q shooter CLT.

880
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 2: Gray and quote, I remember yelling at him that we

881
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 2: were kids, because we were kids. So there that really

882
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 2: shuck me. And there's more testimony. But do we want

883
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 2: to get a little bit into the family background.

884
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean for sure, because I still don't understand

885
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:36,959
Speaker 4: what this father was thinking. I feel like it's too

886
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 4: on the nose and there has to be something I'm missing.

887
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 5: So let's bring in right and we last night we

888
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 5: talked about some of those red flags that you both

889
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 5: brought up, and those red flags briefly were literally officers

890
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 5: went and told the father of the alleged shooter, hey,

891
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 5: your son's been online threatening to.

892
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:00,800
Speaker 3: Up a school.

893
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 5: Also, the alleged shooter had a shrine to a former

894
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 5: school shooter. Also, he had done disturbing actions asking about

895
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 5: active shooter drills drills at school, so everyone was talking

896
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 5: to school.

897
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 3: He was fresh off the press, is new to the

898
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 3: school in one of those.

899
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 4: In one of those red flag moments, though, the dad

900
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 4: purchased the gun after these moments, I think the I

901
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 4: think that there were I think the one where he

902
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 4: questioned if the school did after shooter drills, I think

903
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 4: that happened after the dad got the gun. But in

904
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:47,439
Speaker 4: the previous two the shrine and uh, you know, him

905
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 4: threatening to do a school shooting online when the officers

906
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 4: came to the house, then the dad decided to buy

907
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 4: him a gun after those things happened, which is just

908
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 4: that's crazy to me. So there has to be something on.

909
00:53:58,200 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 3: This, Okay.

910
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 5: So well, the father, Colin, who is on trial right now,

911
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 5: he was married to Marcy Gray. Things are a little

912
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 5: bit fuzzy, but it seems that they were married around

913
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 5: two thousand and eight and divorced around twenty twenty two.

914
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 5: That's the most information we have because exact records have

915
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 5: not been released.

916
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 2: So after the separation, the accused shooter lived with his

917
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,839
Speaker 2: father while his mother cared for the younger siblings.

918
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 5: So think about that, he's separated from his siblings, right,

919
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 5: It's a fractured family, right.

920
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

921
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 5: Now, the father, Colin Gray, who's on trial right now,

922
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 5: he's fifty four years old. He grew up in a

923
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 5: really abusive household.

924
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 2: He struggled with substance abuse following a back injury, and

925
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 2: reportedly lost a farm due.

926
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 3: To financial stress.

927
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 2: So there's also dad's been under it, no question exactly.

928
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 2: And the mother in this cage forty three years old,

929
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 2: Marcy Gray. Her criminal record it goes almost twenty years

930
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: long and includes duys and property damage, drug possession, and

931
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 2: later elder exploitation. Actually, so it was very problematic, and

932
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 2: so both parents had unstable, high risk environments. So in

933
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 2: early twenty twenty three, this is a little more than

934
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 2: a year before the shooting, the mother posted about enjoy

935
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 2: enduring more than fourteen years of domestic abuse. She relocated

936
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 2: with her younger children, and then later she was separated

937
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: from her children by the state courts and pleaded guilty

938
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 2: to family violence. So that's what was going on at

939
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 2: mom's house. So Stephanie's drawing a circle in the air.

940
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 2: I mean there's something, there's a there there again, not

941
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 2: putting in judgment there, but no sure.

942
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 5: Yeah. And then one more thing about the mother. We

943
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 5: won't spend too much time on this.

944
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 2: But in November of twenty three, the mother we're talking about,

945
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 2: she taped her own seventy three year old mother to

946
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: a chair for about twenty four hours. And this happened

947
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 2: during a confrontation between the two. The mother stole her

948
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 2: mother's phone and that is where they fell in the

949
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 2: elder exploitation charges.

950
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 3: And it's a crazy story.

951
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 9: So said, we're not going to spend all right, but

952
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,719
Speaker 9: like it's so you have to say small pause here

953
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 9: because it's a very specific human, if this is accurate,

954
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 9: could tie.

955
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 3: Their own mother to a chair for twenty four hours.

956
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:50,720
Speaker 2: So we're dealing with what I would have to assume,

957
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:56,399
Speaker 2: somebody who is incredibly unwell. Yeah, this is somebody who's unwell, right,

958
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:57,800
Speaker 2: Courtney deeply.

959
00:56:58,520 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

960
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 2: So now this kid who's having suicidal ideation is about

961
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 2: to start ninth grade in this new school, you know,

962
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 2: all the things I would imagine I'm placing these things

963
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 2: on him. So this is you know, these are the

964
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 2: stories in my head. And you know Mom and Dad

965
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 2: aren't figuring it out. Mom has a lot of stuff

966
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 2: going on behind the scenes, zero judgment. Dad seems to

967
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 2: be the safer of the two. And here we are,

968
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:35,959
Speaker 2: and then Dad thinking he's going to teach his son

969
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 2: better gun habits, perhaps by having this gun readily available

970
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 2: to the son that his school has said is a

971
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 2: problem with a gun, Yes, and.

972
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 5: Has been making threats about doing a school shooting.

973
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 3: Yes, this gun was bought after that's backing exactly right.

974
00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 5: And so what the prosecutors allege is that Dad, who's

975
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 5: on trial right now, I don't even think this is

976
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 5: in question, but that he gave his son, at the

977
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 5: accused shooter, who was fourteen at the time, an AR

978
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 5: fifteen style rifle for Christmas, and to go with it,

979
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 5: a laser site, a tactical vest, and ammunition. And again

980
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 5: this all knowing that his son's mental health had totally

981
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 5: deteriorated before his eyes.

982
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, he'd been at school for like ten days and

983
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 2: all this activity had already happened.

984
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 3: Well had called mom called the school.

985
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 2: Saying, you know, she's concerned her son has access to firearm.

986
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 2: There's a lot of checks and balances that happened actually

987
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 2: quite well and still led to such an unfortunate, horrible ending.

988
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 2: You know, you wouldn't wish it on your worst nightmare.

989
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 4: Well, the dad seems like, well, the whole family unfortunately,

990
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 4: seems like there was a lot of unstability, right, like

991
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 4: instability and a lot of chaos. Right, So maybe the

992
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 4: dad kind of normalized his son's behavior in his mind,

993
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 4: right like SMaL like I did this too, and I'm fine,

994
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Like, I'm just kind of

995
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 4: I just can't imagine anything.

996
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 3: I don't know.

997
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, what the defense, because we did speak last night

998
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 5: about what the prosecution said, which was, to paraphrase in

999
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 5: their opening statement, basically, this defendant, the dad gave a

1000
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 5: bomb and a match to someone he was told was

1001
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 5: going to light it. The defense to be you know, balanced,

1002
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 5: They are saying that Colin is an attentive father, that

1003
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 5: he was seeking mental health treatment for his son, and

1004
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 5: also what they are emphasizing is that the alleged shooter

1005
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 5: deceived his family and counselors.

1006
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 2: And law enforcement. So just to put that out there,

1007
00:59:58,120 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 2: that is the defense's stance.

1008
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 4: What can we dissect that just for a moment for sure. Yeah,

1009
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 4: he kind of did fool law enforcement, right because law

1010
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 4: enforcement went out to the home and we're like, hey,

1011
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 4: your kid's like doing the stuff online. He must have

1012
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 4: had some smooth talking to be like, no, everything's fine.

1013
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 4: So the law enforcement didn't pursue it, right, So there

1014
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 4: must have been kind of keep in.

1015
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 2: Mind also if it's your immediate family member, I would

1016
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 2: have to imagine if it's your child too, you don't

1017
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 2: fill in the blanks as you know, you want to

1018
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 2: probably be so forgiving. You know, you're not seeing the

1019
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 2: world maybe through the same correct lens.

1020
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is a really tough one. But I do

1021
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 5: want to say one thing, and this is not a secret.

1022
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 5: Whitney's been on the show, The Wonderful Whitney who helps

1023
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:49,960
Speaker 5: on the show, and her husband is both an officer

1024
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 5: and now serving in the Armed forces.

1025
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 3: Pardon me.

1026
01:00:54,840 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 5: She was staggered by the gone, the power, the possibility,

1027
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 5: and also with the laser site and the tactical vest.

1028
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 5: She said, who is giving this to any child? So

1029
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 5: this is a person who's very familiar.

1030
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly, can we do better and if we

1031
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 4: were doing maybe better psychological testing, perhaps.

1032
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 2: This, you know, young boy would not have passed that

1033
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 2: test and maybe this could have been flagged again. Say

1034
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 2: this to the you know, say this to the parent

1035
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 2: who lost their kids.

1036
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 7: Right after Whitney said that, like, I had to look

1037
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 7: up the AR fifteen because it just sounds incredibly it's nice, wild,

1038
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 7: it's a semi automatic, but it's one of the most

1039
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 7: widely owned civilian rifles in the US, so it is

1040
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 7: it's not an uncommon weapon to have. But it threw

1041
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 7: me for a loop when I heard that. I'm like,

1042
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 7: you know, and the laser, it was just a bit

1043
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 7: confusing that that existed and not existed, but that you

1044
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 7: would give that to it. But it's not uncommon.

1045
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 4: I wonder if it's thought it would fix him, like,

1046
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 4: you know, regain control over and.

1047
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 5: I mean maybe in whatever his you know, there was

1048
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 5: a lot of drugs, there was financial instability.

1049
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:15,920
Speaker 3: It's hard to it is hard to know. It's so sad.

1050
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 4: Well, coming up one year after fourteen year old Emily

1051
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 4: Pike was found dismembered, no arrests, and her case sparks

1052
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 4: a major legal change. Keep it right here, True Crime Tonight.

1053
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight and iHeartRadio. We're talking

1054
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1055
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 2: Body Movin and Courtney Armstrong. Listen, we've been burying the lead.

1056
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 2: First of all, Happy Fat Tuesday. First of all, what

1057
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 2: does fat Tuesday really mean?

1058
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 3: You just drink, drink, drink.

1059
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 5: That's a New Orleans for lents, right, Yeah, it's the

1060
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 5: day before Lent. Just kind of general gluttony.

1061
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 4: Oh we gotta Yeah, you just be like a devious,

1062
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:07,080
Speaker 4: like a little demon.

1063
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 2: Until I missed out, I didn't realize that at all,

1064
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:16,919
Speaker 2: although I'd been eating Oreos gluten free double stuffed Oreos.

1065
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 4: Damage like Deerman.

1066
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 3: On my teeth, so delicious.

1067
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 4: Okay, let me ask you. Do you twist your Oreos

1068
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 4: off and lick the double stuff or you just eat

1069
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 4: it raw dog like you stick in your mouth and

1070
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 4: eat it.

1071
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 3: I definitely don't do that.

1072
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 2: I separate and sacrifize the double stuff cream in the middle,

1073
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 2: and just like I kind of just like bail on

1074
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 2: one of the like.

1075
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 3: Wave res alt together me too.

1076
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 4: I usually like set that aside and I all have

1077
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 4: like a stack of them, because I've had somebody.

1078
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 2: Correct, right, we kind of if we if we like

1079
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 2: squish those up into a crumble, it would be like

1080
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 2: a car of l cake and you can put that

1081
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 2: on ice cream. You can also listen, I sound like

1082
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 2: pregnant boy, almighty.

1083
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 10: Bring.

1084
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 4: What I do is I'd put it in a baggie,

1085
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 4: the little whatever, the little cookies that are left over

1086
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 4: that you know I've tossed to the side or whatever,

1087
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 4: and I'll usually have it in the morning with my

1088
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 4: yogurt tumble.

1089
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.

1090
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 4: I always like my sweets late at night or early

1091
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 4: in the morning. So it's kind of satis.

1092
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 3: Early in the morning. That's Spanish to have a little

1093
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 3: with some.

1094
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 2: Later when I was a little, like a little cappuccino espresso.

1095
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 2: So when you are you a good little on a

1096
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 2: balcony somewhere enjoying this.

1097
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 4: Grumble, I'm pm pem Sen at my desk, reading the news, crying,

1098
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 4: eating my oreo yogurt. A little things.

1099
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 3: Kids, it's.

1100
01:04:55,560 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 2: There, Miss Courtney for Lent, well for before Lent. Because

1101
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 2: today is fat Tuesday. Tonight is the night up.

1102
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 5: So when we are done with this program, I am

1103
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 5: going to have a piece of white pizza, which is

1104
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 5: how I like my pizza, no sauce.

1105
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 4: I've never had white pizza, no sauce.

1106
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:20,840
Speaker 2: You've never had white pizza so good.

1107
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 3: It's rikatta. It's delicious, so good.

1108
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 2: So my favorite, your favorite white pizza in my favorite

1109
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 2: white pizza. And Manhattan Bourbon Manhattan It's it's really just

1110
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:39,080
Speaker 2: bourbon and those those cherries we use, the expensive ones.

1111
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:42,960
Speaker 5: I taste so much better, you know, the really dark ones. Yeah,

1112
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 5: I forget the name. They're they're worth it. And some

1113
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 5: bitters anyway. So because I'm doing that to really live

1114
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 5: up to the name of fat Tuesday, because tomorrow Lent

1115
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:57,520
Speaker 5: arrives and I'll be giving up. I say out loud

1116
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 5: to you, booze and cheese, cheese.

1117
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:11,040
Speaker 3: You're doing this doubles hard? Why is such a saintthood? Well,

1118
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 3: I got a lot to before, so what else days?

1119
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:20,640
Speaker 4: No booze, no cheese. I could not do the cheese.

1120
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 4: I'm sorry. I haven't drank in like a year, but

1121
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 4: a booze and cheese absolutely not.

1122
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 7: I don't know which of the two is the hard.

1123
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 4: During the commercial break, I went and got a little

1124
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 4: cheese cube, but I had to go get a little

1125
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 4: I had was foraging.

1126
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 3: Like a little ice cube, but it was cheese delicious.

1127
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:43,920
Speaker 4: I used cheese cubes to give the dogs their pills stuff.

1128
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 4: The I stuffed the cheese or the pills, and they

1129
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 4: can't resist the cheese.

1130
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 3: And sometimes I little tickles to.

1131
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:57,439
Speaker 2: Every dog falls for it every time. I'd be so

1132
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 2: mad every time. It's kind of they're so stupid.

1133
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 4: They don't know that. Oh geese momentees.

1134
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I fall for it.

1135
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 4: So cheese and booze? What about your stuff anything?

1136
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 3: Are you doing anything for it?

1137
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 1: No?

1138
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 5: You got to I mean I listen, I'd say, no, listen.

1139
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:19,840
Speaker 5: You moved to Nashville. A tree fell in your house.

1140
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 5: Like that's enough, that's enough, you've given up enough.

1141
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:24,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think you're fine.

1142
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 2: Give really like I kind of want to participate. And

1143
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 2: by the way, I have a couple of things I

1144
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 2: could give up for starters, Like, let's start with a

1145
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 2: bag of oreos.

1146
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 3: That I are sitting on your Moti regular thing.

1147
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 2: Let's not forget that pizza that I seem to have

1148
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 2: got on speed dial with the ones with the pistachios

1149
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 2: and the dates.

1150
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 3: Don't be fooled. I get that quite a bit.

1151
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 2: My spritening take is, well, we'll have to go back

1152
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 2: to that, because that is not so good. I know

1153
01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 2: every time I delivers they look at me like, are

1154
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 2: you the weirdo that's getting this, and I'm like, yes,

1155
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:02,440
Speaker 2: it's delicious dates a glu free delivery pizza and it

1156
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:05,000
Speaker 2: has I mean, I know this is not going to

1157
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 2: sound great. However, it is Celiac and it's made in

1158
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 2: some weird oven that's very Celiacy. I'm putting everybody to

1159
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:12,880
Speaker 2: sleep as we talk, so go ahead.

1160
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 3: It's like poppy.

1161
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 4: Everybody's I just don't understand looked at me and chose

1162
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 4: that it's not the greatest selection.

1163
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 3: It's like a well Courtney sounds like shield love it.

1164
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 2: It has a white white cheese and it has some

1165
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:32,479
Speaker 2: pistachios on it, like some falsamic glaze involved or no,

1166
01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:34,360
Speaker 2: maybe maybe the.

1167
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:41,680
Speaker 11: Version that always like every single time I go to

1168
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 11: have it, I think to myself, like, this would be

1169
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:45,719
Speaker 11: so much better if it just had sauce.

1170
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 2: But then I just eat it out of er. I thought,

1171
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:52,360
Speaker 2: sauce is oh I can, I can? It wasn't on

1172
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:52,759
Speaker 2: the menu.

1173
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 4: Oh okay, but the but the pistachio pizza is on

1174
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 4: the menu, but no sauce. God forbid, the pizza place

1175
01:08:59,120 --> 01:08:59,679
Speaker 4: has sauce.

1176
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:03,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, now I've had it so much that I've actually gone, Okay,

1177
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 2: now I like, I slightly crave it. Now I'm obsessed

1178
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:08,799
Speaker 2: with this particular pizza.

1179
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 4: No sounds great. I would, ever, I don't. I just

1180
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:14,400
Speaker 4: don't know that I would order it.

1181
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:14,760
Speaker 3: I would.

1182
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:16,639
Speaker 4: I don't know that. If I know, I order.

1183
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 2: That, I order and it's like the only thing on

1184
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:22,320
Speaker 2: my bill, Like at the end of the month, you

1185
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 2: see the exact thing.

1186
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 3: Literally, they know me by name.

1187
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:33,800
Speaker 4: Right, if you're just joining us A sister Currents and

1188
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 4: I on iHeartRadio, we're right in the middle of really

1189
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:39,320
Speaker 4: not talking about anything about lent and pistachio and date

1190
01:09:39,360 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 4: pizza for some reason. But I have a story I

1191
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 4: want to tell you guys, and it's about Emily Pike.

1192
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 4: So it really kind of goes to a systemic problem

1193
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:53,839
Speaker 4: that we have. Right, So, when an indigenous teenager goes missing,

1194
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:58,720
Speaker 4: especially one from state supervision, it's not just like a

1195
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 4: runnaway story. It's a systems story.

1196
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 3: Right.

1197
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 4: When Indigenous youth go missing, they are often labeled as runaways.

1198
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 4: And that label can reduce urgency, right because it's not urgent,

1199
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 4: it really reduces urgency, and it can shift perception and

1200
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:21,639
Speaker 4: in some cases it can delay critical investigative response. Emily

1201
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:24,599
Speaker 4: Pike was fourteen years old. She was a member of

1202
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:28,840
Speaker 4: the San Carlos Apache tribe in Arizona. She loved art.

1203
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:31,840
Speaker 4: She had a family who cared about her. In a

1204
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 4: year ago, in January, she disappeared. Emily. She was living

1205
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:40,200
Speaker 4: in a group home in Mesa, Arizona, when she left

1206
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:44,880
Speaker 4: the facility on the evening of January twenty seventh. She

1207
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 4: was reported missing shortly after, but you know again that

1208
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 4: she ran away. Questions have since been raised about the

1209
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 4: communication delays and how quickly her family was notified.

1210
01:10:57,880 --> 01:10:58,479
Speaker 3: Excuse me.

1211
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:04,360
Speaker 4: So. Just over two weeks later, on Valentine's Day, hikers

1212
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:09,679
Speaker 4: discovered human remains in trash bags along US Highway sixty

1213
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 4: in Gilla County in Arizona. The remains were later identified

1214
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 4: as Emily. The medical examiner ruled her death a homicide

1215
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:21,559
Speaker 4: caused by blunt force trauma, and some of her remains

1216
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:26,080
Speaker 4: were never recovered her I do seem to remember that

1217
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 4: her hands were missing. Her hands, that's right, Yeah, so

1218
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:34,760
Speaker 4: as of right now, no arrests have been made. So

1219
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 4: here's some the details. Okay, So, Emily Pike. She was

1220
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:42,000
Speaker 4: last seen on the twenty seventh, at twenty twenty five,

1221
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:45,120
Speaker 4: just over a year ago, at seven forty five, she

1222
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:47,840
Speaker 4: left her group home. It was over one hundred miles

1223
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:51,240
Speaker 4: away from her family and it was on the San

1224
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:56,600
Speaker 4: Carlos Apache Reservation. Surveillance images captured her right after she

1225
01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 4: left the facility, but authorities have not disclosed posed exactly

1226
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 4: where those images were captured from. Again, on to fourteenth,

1227
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 4: hikers found her dismembered body in trash bags along the

1228
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:16,840
Speaker 4: highway about seventy miles away. A while while quite quite

1229
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:21,800
Speaker 4: a ways, somebody parts, including her arms and hands, were

1230
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 4: never recovered. The autopsy did show face and head trauma,

1231
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:30,080
Speaker 4: and of course the death is being investigated as a homicide.

1232
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:31,880
Speaker 4: I mean her body, her poor little body, was in

1233
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 4: trash bags. Full detail opsy results have not been made

1234
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:40,080
Speaker 4: public because this is an active investigation.

1235
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:40,519
Speaker 1: Right.

1236
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:45,599
Speaker 4: So, she had previously escaped the group home before multiple times.

1237
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:50,160
Speaker 4: Bodycam footage shows her pleaing at that time that she

1238
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 4: wanted to go see her mom.

1239
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:52,479
Speaker 7: She wanted to.

1240
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 2: Want her to go see her mom and forgive me

1241
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:58,040
Speaker 2: if I'm mistaken, because the group home was not on

1242
01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:01,360
Speaker 2: the reservation, that was on us tritory, but her mom

1243
01:13:01,400 --> 01:13:03,800
Speaker 2: and grandmom were on the reservation.

1244
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:07,000
Speaker 3: It was I think it was the opposite, the reverse.

1245
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:10,680
Speaker 4: I think I'm please if somebody knows the if I'm

1246
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:13,280
Speaker 4: wrong about that, then no, no, no, you're right because

1247
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:16,160
Speaker 4: her home was on the San Carlos Apathi Reservation. You're

1248
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 4: absolutely right. Stuff, You're absolutely right.

1249
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:22,360
Speaker 2: I think no, you're But just because I play a

1250
01:13:22,479 --> 01:13:26,240
Speaker 2: very critical piece, it's in the jurisdiction part, which we're

1251
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:29,559
Speaker 2: also seeing with Nancy Guthrie right now.

1252
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:32,320
Speaker 4: She had she had previously been placed at this group

1253
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:38,040
Speaker 4: home after reporting sexual abuse, which was investigated by the

1254
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:43,200
Speaker 4: reservation's Game and Fish officers rather than tribal police. So

1255
01:13:43,240 --> 01:13:47,400
Speaker 4: they placed her in this group home, and initially the

1256
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 4: group allegedly failed to report her missing to Arizona's Department

1257
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:57,200
Speaker 4: for Child Safety. Her father, Jensen Pike, Emily's dad, filed

1258
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:01,560
Speaker 4: a lawsuit a few months ago in September, claiming negligence

1259
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:08,280
Speaker 4: in this whole situation authorities including the Gilla County Sheriff's Office, FBI,

1260
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:12,120
Speaker 4: and the San Carlos. Apache Tribal police have been involved

1261
01:14:12,120 --> 01:14:18,080
Speaker 4: in the investigation. Her family has described her as broke, broad, smiled, lively,

1262
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 4: and heart breakingly innocent with aspirations to attend college. Now

1263
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 4: there have been suspects in this case, but we don't

1264
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:31,960
Speaker 4: know who they are, and they have not named anybody

1265
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:34,400
Speaker 4: publicly or anything like that. They've interviewed people, but no

1266
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:38,599
Speaker 4: of us have been made. Now here's what's interesting that

1267
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:42,320
Speaker 4: that's kind of come out from this. The governor of Arizona,

1268
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:46,160
Speaker 4: you know, in her in her memory and to protect

1269
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:50,639
Speaker 4: other Indigenous people in Arizona, they passed a bill called

1270
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:54,800
Speaker 4: HB two two eight one Emily's Law in twenty twenty five,

1271
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:59,960
Speaker 4: and that established the Turkoays Alert in partnership with new mecha.

1272
01:15:01,080 --> 01:15:03,600
Speaker 4: All right, and there is more new thing. So you know,

1273
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:07,000
Speaker 4: we have Ambler alerts, we have Silverlar alerts. You know,

1274
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:12,000
Speaker 4: this is a turquoise alert and it's specifically made to

1275
01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:17,080
Speaker 4: issue rapid alerts and mobilize the public for indigenous you know,

1276
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:19,360
Speaker 4: Indigenous people under the age of sixty five.

1277
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 2: And can we pause right there because something that you

1278
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 2: know and Courtney jump in if you if you want

1279
01:15:25,880 --> 01:15:28,120
Speaker 2: to add to this One of the things that we

1280
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 2: learned about just sort of the plight of Native American

1281
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:38,440
Speaker 2: families living on the reservation is when God forbid, tragedy

1282
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:41,759
Speaker 2: hits right, and you know there's a call to attention,

1283
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:44,800
Speaker 2: it's real hard to mobilize. One there's not a lot

1284
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:45,839
Speaker 2: of tribal police.

1285
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:46,639
Speaker 3: There's not enough.

1286
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:51,559
Speaker 2: So there's a wide range of land and then tribal police,

1287
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:55,160
Speaker 2: you know, there may be only seven for you know,

1288
01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:57,240
Speaker 2: an area that's very, very very.

1289
01:15:57,040 --> 01:15:59,840
Speaker 5: The size of the size of Rhode Island. The size

1290
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:00,799
Speaker 5: of Rhode Island.

1291
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:03,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's not even at the same time we're

1292
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:05,599
Speaker 2: talking seven right.

1293
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:09,160
Speaker 4: So you have tribal law enforcement, which also includes coordinating

1294
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:12,639
Speaker 4: with the Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs the BIA.

1295
01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:15,720
Speaker 3: Then you have their own set of problems have a

1296
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:16,240
Speaker 3: set of.

1297
01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:19,639
Speaker 4: Problems, right, And then you have the county Sheriff's office

1298
01:16:19,760 --> 01:16:25,639
Speaker 4: in local police department rights you no, I'm just saying

1299
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:28,800
Speaker 4: all the people that can the jurisdictionally, that causes a

1300
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:31,240
Speaker 4: lot of confusion. Then you have the state police, and

1301
01:16:31,240 --> 01:16:33,320
Speaker 4: then you have the FBI who all kind of get

1302
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:37,000
Speaker 4: involved in these things and it's kind of almost too

1303
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:39,120
Speaker 4: in some point at all.

1304
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 2: Or everyone thinks there's a hand in the pot, and

1305
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:45,400
Speaker 2: it's hand in the pot because they're like, oh, well

1306
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:48,720
Speaker 2: they have it, that's their jurisdiction. And again, sometimes this

1307
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:51,360
Speaker 2: is real time experience and it's a lot of boos

1308
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:55,240
Speaker 2: on what and even with the best of intentions, literally

1309
01:16:55,280 --> 01:17:00,799
Speaker 2: the best of intentions, there's a lot of thing happening

1310
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:03,960
Speaker 2: and no investigation and valuable time lost.

1311
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:09,280
Speaker 5: Well even you mentioned the FBI being involved, and yes,

1312
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:16,800
Speaker 5: it's their purview. However, systemically, the declination rate of MMIW

1313
01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:20,880
Speaker 5: cases for the FBI is staggeringly high.

1314
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:23,240
Speaker 3: So that means that MMI.

1315
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:26,400
Speaker 5: Cases that are brought to the FBI's attention they do

1316
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:30,080
Speaker 5: not choose to take on because it would make their

1317
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 5: success rate go down because MMIW cases are.

1318
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 3: So rarely solved.

1319
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:42,080
Speaker 2: And keep in mind, they're also taking officers from any

1320
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:45,640
Speaker 2: jurisdiction who also have a lot going on in and

1321
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:48,840
Speaker 2: around their backyard. And dare I say that you're going

1322
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 2: to send out another two people to go out into

1323
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 2: the middle of nowhere where technically they don't have jurisdiction.

1324
01:17:55,920 --> 01:17:57,000
Speaker 3: That's the other side, cha.

1325
01:17:57,439 --> 01:18:01,200
Speaker 4: So if anybody has any information the FBI Field Office

1326
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:03,679
Speaker 4: in Phoenix, is you can reach him at six two three,

1327
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:08,599
Speaker 4: four six, six one nine or the Silent Witness hot

1328
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:11,519
Speaker 4: nine four eight oh six three seven seven.

1329
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:12,680
Speaker 3: We'll be right back.

1330
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:15,720
Speaker 4: Keep it right here, True Crime Tonight.

1331
01:18:24,520 --> 01:18:27,519
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been

1332
01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:31,280
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker. I'm

1333
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:34,120
Speaker 2: here with the Courtney armstrong, body moving. You seem to

1334
01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:37,920
Speaker 2: be you seem to be exacerbated. What's going on?

1335
01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:41,960
Speaker 4: You've got an alert on my phe now, so do

1336
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:42,320
Speaker 4: you mind?

1337
01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:42,560
Speaker 2: Is it?

1338
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:44,760
Speaker 4: Okay? Yeah, you don't even know what it's about. You're

1339
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:46,200
Speaker 4: just trusting me, okay.

1340
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:46,519
Speaker 3: Yes.

1341
01:18:47,040 --> 01:18:51,800
Speaker 4: Implicitly, Google is trying to recover footage from Nancy Guthrie's

1342
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:58,240
Speaker 4: other cameras. Brian Enton met with the sheriff, Chris Nanos

1343
01:18:58,280 --> 01:19:02,160
Speaker 4: and he's Chris Nanos is saying investigators don't yet have

1344
01:19:02,280 --> 01:19:06,040
Speaker 4: the various camera footage you know, from Google is actively

1345
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:08,960
Speaker 4: trying to retrieve it right now as we speak, he

1346
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:13,960
Speaker 4: told Brian Entton today, authorities so far have only attained,

1347
01:19:14,439 --> 01:19:19,639
Speaker 4: you know, the village footage that we've seen. But yeah,

1348
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:22,280
Speaker 4: but there's footage, there's obviously there was footage that was

1349
01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:24,800
Speaker 4: able to be recovered because we've seen it, even though

1350
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:29,840
Speaker 4: she didn't have an active subscription. Investigators have asked Google

1351
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:33,280
Speaker 4: whether additional video can be accessed, and according to the sheriff,

1352
01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:35,960
Speaker 4: the company said, we don't think we can get anything.

1353
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:39,559
Speaker 4: We will try, so Google now is on the case.

1354
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:42,759
Speaker 7: So wait, so this is the next cam we've seen,

1355
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:45,120
Speaker 7: So she might have had a second camera somewhere.

1356
01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:50,840
Speaker 2: Apprently, Yeah, and is it crazy that my immediate suspicious

1357
01:19:50,880 --> 01:19:58,080
Speaker 2: brain now goes to, oh, they're trying to stretch my

1358
01:19:58,080 --> 01:20:01,519
Speaker 2: my privacy and just oh, that's not that's not crazy

1359
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:04,679
Speaker 2: at all. I think that's why is my brain here?

1360
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:06,080
Speaker 2: That is so unlike me?

1361
01:20:06,760 --> 01:20:07,679
Speaker 3: But now I'm like, whoa.

1362
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:11,200
Speaker 2: Everybody's got their cameras up and you know, whether you

1363
01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:15,639
Speaker 2: know it or not, it's recording and on its nose.

1364
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:18,960
Speaker 2: This is the exact reason that that's a beautiful thing

1365
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:24,160
Speaker 2: because it's listen. It might be the thing that saves sweet, beautiful,

1366
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:28,160
Speaker 2: beloved Nancy Guthrie's life and brings her back to her

1367
01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:30,960
Speaker 2: missing family. Her family's missing her so much.

1368
01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:34,720
Speaker 3: We all are. So did you see the opposite of

1369
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:35,439
Speaker 3: that is scary?

1370
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:37,840
Speaker 4: It is no, it is did you guys see that

1371
01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:41,120
Speaker 4: the a locksmith came to the house today, Nancy's house,

1372
01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:43,720
Speaker 4: So a locksmith came, and we don't know if they're

1373
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:47,800
Speaker 4: like maybe changing the locks or there's a safe inside

1374
01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:50,439
Speaker 4: that they're trying to see if you know, they can

1375
01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:56,400
Speaker 4: get into. We don't know. And and the neighbors. The

1376
01:20:56,439 --> 01:20:59,360
Speaker 4: authorities were looking at the cameras at the neighbor's house,

1377
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:01,479
Speaker 4: so maybe they'll find have they not.

1378
01:21:01,640 --> 01:21:04,360
Speaker 3: Done that at real crazy?

1379
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:07,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I aged, but they were looking like they were

1380
01:21:08,840 --> 01:21:11,440
Speaker 4: I don't know that the physical acts. They were physically

1381
01:21:11,479 --> 01:21:14,719
Speaker 4: looking at it today though, but again physically looking.

1382
01:21:14,479 --> 01:21:18,240
Speaker 7: At it seventeen I mean, like we got to put an.

1383
01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:21,559
Speaker 2: Alert to every mom and like give us twelve hours

1384
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:25,160
Speaker 2: in work like this is wild, Like if we had

1385
01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:27,040
Speaker 2: just gone door to door check the camera, there's some

1386
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:30,519
Speaker 2: basics here that, well.

1387
01:21:30,400 --> 01:21:32,479
Speaker 4: They did go door to door, I mean we saw

1388
01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:34,439
Speaker 4: them do that. They did go to door. I mean,

1389
01:21:34,479 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 4: so they might have visually seen people's systems, you know,

1390
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:41,760
Speaker 4: But today they were actually looking at the physical cameras,

1391
01:21:41,920 --> 01:21:45,360
Speaker 4: which I think is different than looking at what was recorded.

1392
01:21:45,400 --> 01:21:48,040
Speaker 4: I think I don't know what it means, but they're

1393
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:49,439
Speaker 4: physically looking at the camera.

1394
01:21:50,040 --> 01:21:52,240
Speaker 5: By the way, Stephanie, when you called out your first

1395
01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:55,439
Speaker 5: thought of everything recording, we should not not for now,

1396
01:21:55,560 --> 01:21:58,680
Speaker 5: but for another day. You can talk about the backlash

1397
01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:01,559
Speaker 5: from the super Bowl commercial that we talked about where oh,

1398
01:22:01,600 --> 01:22:04,040
Speaker 5: these cameras are made to find your dogs. There's been

1399
01:22:04,200 --> 01:22:08,040
Speaker 5: backlash and a lot of information came out of how

1400
01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:10,479
Speaker 5: the cameras have already been used and they're not being

1401
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:11,400
Speaker 5: used that way anymore.

1402
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:12,840
Speaker 3: Anyway, we will cover that.

1403
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:16,600
Speaker 2: So I keep getting alerts on my phone, but I

1404
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:18,439
Speaker 2: don't know what's will anymore. So that's why we need

1405
01:22:18,479 --> 01:22:22,120
Speaker 2: your opinions that I'm supposed to do some sort of

1406
01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:27,880
Speaker 2: update on my iOS because now there's all the privacy

1407
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:31,519
Speaker 2: settings went back to their automatic settings, and you gotta

1408
01:22:31,560 --> 01:22:36,439
Speaker 2: be careful. Yeah, okay, well you're asking that, and everybody

1409
01:22:36,439 --> 01:22:37,920
Speaker 2: gave me a blank. Stare so good. We're in the

1410
01:22:38,080 --> 01:22:39,800
Speaker 2: I haven't gotten that yet where I'm still in the

1411
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:42,519
Speaker 2: safe zone. Well, let's go to listen. I kind of

1412
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:43,080
Speaker 2: hijacked this.

1413
01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:46,320
Speaker 3: Let's go to and talk about Okay, hey, team is

1414
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:49,080
Speaker 3: the Lasier from Atlanta? Nice?

1415
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:53,439
Speaker 2: I just wanted to This is so random, but I

1416
01:22:53,520 --> 01:22:55,880
Speaker 2: wanted to give my I guess opinion.

1417
01:22:56,400 --> 01:22:58,559
Speaker 3: But Courtney, you had.

1418
01:22:58,439 --> 01:23:00,840
Speaker 6: The most inspect laugh.

1419
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:05,639
Speaker 2: Every time you crack up, I am cracking up.

1420
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:07,519
Speaker 10: It's like a.

1421
01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:17,080
Speaker 3: It's funny and I love it. Keep laughing. I enjoy it.

1422
01:23:17,160 --> 01:23:17,439
Speaker 6: Guys.

1423
01:23:20,479 --> 01:23:24,400
Speaker 2: Right there, that's what the world needs right now is

1424
01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:26,719
Speaker 2: more of the contigious laughter.

1425
01:23:27,040 --> 01:23:29,599
Speaker 3: We all need to be more.

1426
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:33,160
Speaker 2: Courtney tell us a little joke, but like, let's tell

1427
01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:35,280
Speaker 2: you a joke, so you laughed more because it is.

1428
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:40,240
Speaker 2: It is so when Courtney really belly laughs and it

1429
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:43,960
Speaker 2: goes and it's long, like you could go silent for

1430
01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:47,040
Speaker 2: four minutes because you know the person's like waiting to

1431
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:55,639
Speaker 2: in hell. That well, thank you, that was surprising, welcome

1432
01:23:55,760 --> 01:23:56,640
Speaker 2: and wonderful.

1433
01:23:56,800 --> 01:23:59,760
Speaker 3: Thank you, and you have a great laugh too.

1434
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:01,599
Speaker 7: The whole group.

1435
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:06,880
Speaker 4: I left like a duck. I'm like quacking to talk back.

1436
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:07,960
Speaker 3: Let's do it more.

1437
01:24:08,760 --> 01:24:11,880
Speaker 10: Hi, True Crime tonight. This is Lisa from Texas. I

1438
01:24:11,960 --> 01:24:14,960
Speaker 10: never missed an episode, just wanted to give my opinion

1439
01:24:15,520 --> 01:24:19,080
Speaker 10: on True Crime and Chill bring it back permanently. I

1440
01:24:19,120 --> 01:24:23,480
Speaker 10: can't wait for the love. Ted Bunde reviews he has

1441
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:27,479
Speaker 10: Taha has the most comforting voice. It's just like a

1442
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:29,679
Speaker 10: warm blanket love listening to y'all.

1443
01:24:30,240 --> 01:24:37,479
Speaker 4: Lisa, Lisa so sweet biscuits and gravy. That sound like

1444
01:24:37,560 --> 01:24:39,120
Speaker 4: I feel like with Lisa right now.

1445
01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:41,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that.

1446
01:24:41,160 --> 01:24:43,840
Speaker 4: And that's some and some grits or something, Lisa, that

1447
01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:44,439
Speaker 4: was so sweet.

1448
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:47,360
Speaker 7: Any kind of car for me? But thank you, Lisa.

1449
01:24:47,760 --> 01:24:50,800
Speaker 2: Well, I a Taha has a smile for Miles, he

1450
01:24:51,240 --> 01:24:56,439
Speaker 2: is like always full smile. I'm trying to think of

1451
01:24:56,479 --> 01:24:59,479
Speaker 2: an example of when you thought you were being rough?

1452
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:02,480
Speaker 3: What was why didn't want to sound.

1453
01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:04,320
Speaker 7: I know what I said to the group. At some

1454
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:07,160
Speaker 7: point I was like, sorry so short with everybody. Yes, yeah,

1455
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:12,960
Speaker 7: that was being me noticed we knew I was living.

1456
01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:18,160
Speaker 7: I had was feeling. Yes, I really did. Actually I've

1457
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:20,479
Speaker 7: lost sleep about how like, my gosh, that was so

1458
01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:23,680
Speaker 7: I talked to everybody yesterday, So let me just be

1459
01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:27,640
Speaker 7: polite in the future. But to answer that, what was

1460
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:28,880
Speaker 7: her name again, Miss Lisa?

1461
01:25:29,400 --> 01:25:29,960
Speaker 3: Lisa?

1462
01:25:30,240 --> 01:25:33,880
Speaker 7: To answer Lisa's question, true crime and Chill is back.

1463
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:35,679
Speaker 7: I can't say for sure it's going to be permanently.

1464
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:38,640
Speaker 7: But here's what we're going to do, love Ted Bundy's well,

1465
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 7: this is a test, this is well, this is going

1466
01:25:41,120 --> 01:25:42,960
Speaker 7: to be our next one. We're all going to watch together.

1467
01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:46,479
Speaker 7: But we've got plenty of time We're going to wait

1468
01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:49,400
Speaker 7: two weeks because I just found this out. That premiere

1469
01:25:49,560 --> 01:25:54,240
Speaker 7: here last Sunday, February fourteenth, but in Canada it's premiering

1470
01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:57,080
Speaker 7: this coming Sunday, so they will be able to watch it.

1471
01:25:57,400 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 7: So I thought, let's give it, give them all time

1472
01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:00,000
Speaker 7: so they can.

1473
01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:02,000
Speaker 3: All So joined a lot of people in Canada. Yeah,

1474
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:02,400
Speaker 3: so many.

1475
01:26:02,520 --> 01:26:04,720
Speaker 7: We get a lot of Canadian callers. So what we're

1476
01:26:04,720 --> 01:26:08,719
Speaker 7: going to do is, in like two weeks Sunday, March first,

1477
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:12,160
Speaker 7: we'll all unpack that together. So everybody leave your talkbacks

1478
01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:15,000
Speaker 7: about loved Ted Bundy. We already got to believe it

1479
01:26:15,080 --> 01:26:18,200
Speaker 7: or not, so people have already been listening serious we do,

1480
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:21,360
Speaker 7: So we unpack all those together and get opinions. What

1481
01:26:21,400 --> 01:26:21,960
Speaker 7: do you guys think?

1482
01:26:22,080 --> 01:26:23,000
Speaker 3: Listen do you guys?

1483
01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:25,160
Speaker 4: Have you guys noticed to the last two talk backs

1484
01:26:25,200 --> 01:26:29,000
Speaker 4: are like, I just want to leave my opinion. They're

1485
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:30,599
Speaker 4: being very clear.

1486
01:26:31,160 --> 01:26:31,920
Speaker 3: I get that.

1487
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:33,960
Speaker 4: They're leaving their opinion for some swag.

1488
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:42,600
Speaker 2: I guess training us right now, Well, this is.

1489
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:44,360
Speaker 7: A good group to train. Well, there's no training.

1490
01:26:45,200 --> 01:26:51,919
Speaker 3: We're all like dolphins. We were like couppies. That's your favorite.

1491
01:26:52,560 --> 01:26:53,800
Speaker 7: Oh, don't do that.

1492
01:26:55,080 --> 01:26:58,200
Speaker 5: It's Stephanie's favorite question in any scenario.

1493
01:26:58,280 --> 01:27:02,000
Speaker 4: So, everybody, who's your favorite? Out of the dream lesson,

1494
01:27:02,080 --> 01:27:04,840
Speaker 4: I'm like, will you stop it with Jared? Stop putting

1495
01:27:04,920 --> 01:27:10,439
Speaker 4: Jarretto on the spot.

1496
01:27:06,520 --> 01:27:11,080
Speaker 3: For everybody gets the most petrified.

1497
01:27:11,200 --> 01:27:11,439
Speaker 2: Look.

1498
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:14,679
Speaker 4: If we go to crime coll she's going to ask

1499
01:27:14,800 --> 01:27:17,480
Speaker 4: every person who's your favorite?

1500
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:20,479
Speaker 3: They just have to say everybody but me.

1501
01:27:20,720 --> 01:27:30,440
Speaker 2: But it is funny because there's a panic moment that say.

1502
01:27:28,080 --> 01:27:32,439
Speaker 7: That, Yeah, that's funny. Well, I think we have time

1503
01:27:32,439 --> 01:27:35,280
Speaker 7: for another talk pack. We got that we can listen to.

1504
01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:39,360
Speaker 12: Hey, true crime to nineteen, y'all are asking for opinions.

1505
01:27:39,439 --> 01:27:42,479
Speaker 12: Let me a rapid fire some at you. Number one,

1506
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:46,240
Speaker 12: the parents of children who are victims of crime should

1507
01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:48,840
Speaker 12: get to choose the punishment for the perpetrator and carry

1508
01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:52,600
Speaker 12: out side punishment should they want to. Number two, the

1509
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:56,280
Speaker 12: prosecutor in the Idaho four case got it very wrong

1510
01:27:56,680 --> 01:28:02,600
Speaker 12: and carried out an extreme injustice for the victims and

1511
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:05,200
Speaker 12: the families of the victims by not making that monster

1512
01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:08,439
Speaker 12: whose name I won't say, alex you or give any

1513
01:28:08,479 --> 01:28:10,760
Speaker 12: sort of information. And that's why the public can't let

1514
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:13,800
Speaker 12: go of that case. And finally, every time you play

1515
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:16,720
Speaker 12: my messages, I hate the sound of my voice, but

1516
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:19,519
Speaker 12: I love all of your voices. And at the expense

1517
01:28:19,560 --> 01:28:22,240
Speaker 12: of sounding like an extreme creep, I will say the

1518
01:28:22,360 --> 01:28:24,320
Speaker 12: best voice on the show is someone we don't get

1519
01:28:24,320 --> 01:28:27,960
Speaker 12: to hear from very often, and that is Sam. Have

1520
01:28:28,040 --> 01:28:34,519
Speaker 12: a very deep, sultry student voice. I will say, sorry

1521
01:28:34,520 --> 01:28:36,240
Speaker 12: to sound like a creep. Love y'all.

1522
01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:42,160
Speaker 2: Sam mentioned Sam, you know I was going to actually

1523
01:28:42,200 --> 01:28:44,800
Speaker 2: make this suggestion that maybe next week we do a

1524
01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:49,800
Speaker 2: deep dive into some sort of rock and roll murder.

1525
01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:51,960
Speaker 3: Oh Sam, do.

1526
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:53,480
Speaker 4: You have a few suggestions?

1527
01:28:54,320 --> 01:29:01,360
Speaker 2: I have a sneaking suspension, a suspicion, So no pressure,

1528
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:02,479
Speaker 2: but maybe next week.

1529
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:05,800
Speaker 3: But I missed too. It has been in the hallways.

1530
01:29:06,080 --> 01:29:08,720
Speaker 13: Well, I have one body you might know. Do you

1531
01:29:09,160 --> 01:29:11,920
Speaker 13: do you know this band called him Mayhem?

1532
01:29:12,040 --> 01:29:12,639
Speaker 4: No, I don't.

1533
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:16,040
Speaker 13: They're part of that Norwegian black metal.

1534
01:29:16,200 --> 01:29:19,200
Speaker 2: Black metal Okay, yeah, yeah, like you know Rwegian black

1535
01:29:19,240 --> 01:29:20,240
Speaker 2: metal scene is.

1536
01:29:21,080 --> 01:29:25,559
Speaker 13: So basically they're like a scene from like right around

1537
01:29:25,720 --> 01:29:29,240
Speaker 13: speaking of Kirk Obain, Well, we in America were enjoying

1538
01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:35,160
Speaker 13: Nirvana Mania. People from Norway were taking metal the extreme,

1539
01:29:35,240 --> 01:29:41,120
Speaker 13: burning churches, killing each other. So it's kind of the

1540
01:29:41,160 --> 01:29:47,000
Speaker 13: more infant infamous side of metal. Where Yeah, there's some

1541
01:29:47,080 --> 01:29:50,559
Speaker 13: real crime behind that. And I'm surprised body, you didn't

1542
01:29:50,560 --> 01:29:51,559
Speaker 13: know about this because I.

1543
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:52,360
Speaker 4: Didn't know about that.

1544
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:57,719
Speaker 2: I know about Norwegian. You're literally stumping. I cannot get stumped.

1545
01:30:00,360 --> 01:30:01,960
Speaker 2: I promise we didn't plan this.

1546
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:04,760
Speaker 3: I don't know about this one. Sam, Have you had

1547
01:30:04,760 --> 01:30:06,240
Speaker 3: this tip of your tongue this whole time?

1548
01:30:07,040 --> 01:30:10,200
Speaker 2: This was an unplanned Were you going to speak up

1549
01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:12,720
Speaker 2: for yourself and share this had it not come up?

1550
01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:15,919
Speaker 13: I was going to bring it up at some points

1551
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:20,200
Speaker 13: just because, like even Adam kinda knows about this, because

1552
01:30:20,200 --> 01:30:24,320
Speaker 13: this is one of those infamous true crime adjacent stuff

1553
01:30:24,400 --> 01:30:28,800
Speaker 13: to music. This is something that's like if you know

1554
01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:34,479
Speaker 13: like anything about metal, this is deeper, deeper, deeper like

1555
01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:38,360
Speaker 13: type of thing. But there's some actual true crime stuff

1556
01:30:38,400 --> 01:30:42,600
Speaker 13: behind this, and it makes Auzy or anybody think like

1557
01:30:42,600 --> 01:30:44,720
Speaker 13: they're the devil, and it's like, no, these guys are

1558
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:48,200
Speaker 13: like the real deal where they actually believe in Satan

1559
01:30:48,400 --> 01:30:49,400
Speaker 13: or whatever they do.

1560
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:53,639
Speaker 4: I'm not into Satan, you know what I mean. I'm

1561
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:56,759
Speaker 4: in the story to finding out about it. Yeah right,

1562
01:30:57,200 --> 01:30:59,800
Speaker 4: I love that talk back. I didn't find it was

1563
01:30:59,840 --> 01:31:00,479
Speaker 4: so it all.

1564
01:31:00,560 --> 01:31:03,120
Speaker 2: It made me blush on Sam's behalf and you are

1565
01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:06,599
Speaker 2: also totally correct total just.

1566
01:31:06,560 --> 01:31:10,840
Speaker 3: Triggered it, did you I agree with both of them?

1567
01:31:11,160 --> 01:31:13,880
Speaker 7: Really okay? She mentioned yes.

1568
01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:16,320
Speaker 3: And yes, okay, Yeah.

1569
01:31:16,400 --> 01:31:19,760
Speaker 4: Bill Thompson, he was a prosecutor in Idaho and he

1570
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:23,320
Speaker 4: said he said that no matter what Brian Coberger said,

1571
01:31:23,360 --> 01:31:27,519
Speaker 4: it wasn't going to be the truth, right, So why bother?

1572
01:31:28,120 --> 01:31:31,920
Speaker 4: And my whole point was, dude, you could prove if

1573
01:31:31,920 --> 01:31:33,360
Speaker 4: he was telling the truth or not. What do you

1574
01:31:33,439 --> 01:31:37,120
Speaker 4: mean like of course, like it was so so I'm

1575
01:31:37,200 --> 01:31:38,479
Speaker 4: so upset about.

1576
01:31:38,280 --> 01:31:40,880
Speaker 2: It, Like, yeah, that's all been off the table. That

1577
01:31:40,960 --> 01:31:44,280
Speaker 2: can go on a round robin. But I couldn't agree

1578
01:31:44,360 --> 01:31:47,160
Speaker 2: with you more. Don't get me started. And yeah, and

1579
01:31:47,240 --> 01:31:52,439
Speaker 2: I think number one, boy, what a tough spot to

1580
01:31:52,479 --> 01:31:57,759
Speaker 2: be in, right, But yeah, you know, let a parent decide.

1581
01:31:57,680 --> 01:32:00,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, that's like biblical law, right, like for

1582
01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:05,360
Speaker 4: an eye, right, And I just you know, I understand

1583
01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:09,400
Speaker 4: where it comes from. But okay, we don't live it.

1584
01:32:09,479 --> 01:32:12,320
Speaker 4: We can't have those kinds of like you know, laws

1585
01:32:12,400 --> 01:32:15,200
Speaker 4: in the United States of America. Those kinds of laws

1586
01:32:15,280 --> 01:32:18,479
Speaker 4: happen in like Afghanistan, you know what I mean. In

1587
01:32:18,520 --> 01:32:21,360
Speaker 4: the United States of America, we have and justice for

1588
01:32:21,479 --> 01:32:26,040
Speaker 4: all in the same way. Everybody is the same, you know,

1589
01:32:26,120 --> 01:32:26,960
Speaker 4: no matter what it was.

1590
01:32:27,000 --> 01:32:27,639
Speaker 3: But I get it.

1591
01:32:27,680 --> 01:32:29,200
Speaker 4: I totally get what she's.

1592
01:32:29,040 --> 01:32:33,920
Speaker 3: From viscerally, viscerally this.

1593
01:32:33,960 --> 01:32:38,840
Speaker 4: Early I agree. Like, but my non emotional body move

1594
01:32:38,880 --> 01:32:45,439
Speaker 4: and self is like, well, you know, yeah, boil them alive.

1595
01:32:45,520 --> 01:32:47,880
Speaker 4: I'm going to peel their skin off. Go for it,

1596
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:50,080
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Like, let's do it. I'm down.

1597
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:54,320
Speaker 2: But like, right, it sounds like you know a little

1598
01:32:54,320 --> 01:32:56,400
Speaker 2: bit more about that black metal scene than.

1599
01:32:59,439 --> 01:33:00,120
Speaker 3: Tell you.

1600
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:02,960
Speaker 2: You talk about some of these families that we've worked with,

1601
01:33:03,080 --> 01:33:05,080
Speaker 2: and I had a flicker that just went through my

1602
01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:08,559
Speaker 2: head just now literally of like faces upon faces upon faces.

1603
01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:12,200
Speaker 2: Some of the grace that I have witnessed, I think

1604
01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:15,400
Speaker 2: collectively that we have witnessed on many of the projects

1605
01:33:15,439 --> 01:33:19,720
Speaker 2: we've worked on is is so inspiring.

1606
01:33:20,640 --> 01:33:21,040
Speaker 3: Period.

1607
01:33:21,840 --> 01:33:25,479
Speaker 2: It's like a level of grace to see family members

1608
01:33:25,680 --> 01:33:31,360
Speaker 2: or people who have lost so so much and so senselessly, right,

1609
01:33:31,520 --> 01:33:34,160
Speaker 2: and you know what that does to your brain and

1610
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:37,559
Speaker 2: your heart and to be able to come back from

1611
01:33:37,640 --> 01:33:43,000
Speaker 2: it and share your story and you know, restake your

1612
01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:45,160
Speaker 2: claim and what's left.

1613
01:33:45,439 --> 01:33:48,240
Speaker 3: Is it was really inspiring. I feel like we're ending

1614
01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:49,200
Speaker 3: on a hard note again.

1615
01:33:49,360 --> 01:33:55,880
Speaker 2: You know it's good, high vibrations, high vibrations everybody. So

1616
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:58,240
Speaker 2: we're going to stay safe, We're going to keep good vibes.

1617
01:33:58,240 --> 01:34:01,479
Speaker 2: We're going to have more of Courtney lack After in

1618
01:34:01,600 --> 01:34:05,800
Speaker 2: our hearts. And tomorrow, Jarrett Farantino, our favorite prosecutor, will

1619
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:08,920
Speaker 2: be here. Have a great night. Everybody, lock your doors.