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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Brian Coberger is a death penalty showdown, demanding in court

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Speaker 2: his trial be moved to Liberal Boise. Good evening, I'm

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Speaker 2: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being

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Speaker 2: with us.

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Speaker 3: Brian Coberger's defense files for a trial venue change, citing extensive,

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Speaker 3: ongoing and inflammatory publicity. Will the motion be successful?

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Speaker 1: Okay? He wants to move to liberal Boise.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's my understanding that Boise repeatedly votes in a

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Speaker 2: conservative manner.

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Speaker 1: So what's liberal about Boise? Well, first of all, listen

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Speaker 1: to this.

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Speaker 4: Our defense team firmly, and I mean firmly believes in

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Speaker 4: mister Coberger's in a sense, and right now he's being

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Speaker 4: held to have a trial.

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Speaker 5: In a county that believes that he is guilty. If

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Speaker 5: you deny a change of venue, mister Cooberger's constitutional right

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Speaker 5: to a fair trial is denied.

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Speaker 1: Demanding a change of venue.

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Speaker 2: Hold on just a moment before we get into the

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Speaker 2: legalities of Brian Coberger demanding a change of venue in

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Speaker 2: a death penalty showdown. Straight out to Joe Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 2: Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath

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Speaker 2: My feet on Amazon, host of a hit series Bodybags

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Speaker 2: with Joe Scott Morgan. I can go on, but Joe

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan, you had a really interesting insight about moving

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Speaker 2: the trial to boys. Everybody may wonder why am I

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Speaker 2: asking for expert a legal question, but hold your horses,

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott jump in.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, all the forensic pathologist has to do is grab

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Speaker 6: their car keys and drive right down the street or

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Speaker 6: maybe even walk across the street, because that's where the

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Speaker 6: autopsies were actually done on the four victims, and so

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Speaker 6: it's not going to be a real heavy lift for

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Speaker 6: them and have them there. And just imagine that, just

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Speaker 6: for a second, Nancy, this idea that they're going to

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Speaker 6: move this venue there where these four beautiful children were

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Speaker 6: actually examined after the brutality that they sustained allegedly at

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Speaker 6: Coburger's hands.

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Speaker 1: Howard Bloom joining us.

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Speaker 2: You probably know him very well by now, all of

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Speaker 2: you legal eagles, because I sure do. I felt like

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Speaker 2: I knew before I ever actually met him on air,

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Speaker 2: because he's the author of When the Night Comes Falling,

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Speaker 2: a requiem for the Idaho student murders. You can find

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Speaker 2: him at Howard Bloom dot com that's spelled b Lum Howard.

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Speaker 2: What do you make of the change of venue motion.

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Speaker 7: I think it's a very cynical move by the defense.

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Speaker 7: What they're trying to do, ultimately is by time. Whether

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Speaker 7: the trial takes place in Moscow, where it should take place,

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Speaker 7: where the community needs to have its literally wounds healed,

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Speaker 7: or it takes place in Boise is not going to

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Speaker 7: make a difference to the verdict. Whether the forensic xectisameters

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Speaker 7: can get there quicker or they have to drive several

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Speaker 7: hours to get there, that doesn't.

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Speaker 8: Make a difference.

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Speaker 7: It's all going to come down to the evidence.

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Speaker 2: Well, one thing about when you have the medical examiner

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Speaker 2: sitting right across the street, there may be a certain

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Speaker 2: familiarity amongst the population with that medical examiner. I know

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Speaker 2: who our medical examiner is. But I want you to

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Speaker 2: listen very carefully to what Coburger's defense attorney, An Taylor

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Speaker 2: says one more time.

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Speaker 4: Our defense team firmly, and I mean firmly, believes in

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Speaker 4: mister Coberger's in a sense, and right now he's being

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Speaker 4: held to have a trial in a county that believes

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Speaker 4: that he is guilty.

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Speaker 5: If you deny a change of venue. Mister Coberger's constitutional

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Speaker 5: right to a fair trial is Tony.

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Speaker 2: She believes that firmly. Okay, what does the prosecution say.

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Speaker 9: Listen, we at least owe Leaytak County, people of Lake

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Speaker 9: Talk County, the attempt to see the journey here first,

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Speaker 9: and not just relying on There's been a lot of publicity,

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Speaker 9: There's been a lot of polistic It's not re Moscow,

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Speaker 9: it's not Latah County, it's everywhere. So I don't think

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Speaker 9: that a change of venue is going to solve any

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Speaker 9: of these problems. And the state's position on venue is

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Speaker 9: that the case should be held here. It's a Layta

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Speaker 9: County case. We believe that we can select an appropriate

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Speaker 9: paneled jurors from La Tau County.

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Speaker 2: And believe it or not, coult Mom Lorie Valo, and

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Speaker 2: I believe her fourth husband, the prophet Chad Dabail, have

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Speaker 2: somehow reared their ugly as in the middle of the

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Speaker 2: Coburger prosecution list.

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Speaker 10: And experts believe the judge will have a hard time

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Speaker 10: denying the change of venue due to both extreme public

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Speaker 10: interest in the case and tight connections in Moscow to

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Speaker 10: both law enforcement and the University of Idaho. The recent

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Speaker 10: decisions to move both Lori Vallo and Chad Dave Belth

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Speaker 10: cases from Fremont to Ada County due to publicity may

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Speaker 10: further push the judge to side with Taylor and to

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Speaker 10: prove the change of venue.

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Speaker 2: Straight out to high profile lawyer in this jurisdiction. She

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Speaker 2: practices in both Idaho, Idaho and Utah. Stephanie Pitcher from

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Speaker 2: Parker Maconco Law firm. Stephanie who important for my purposes?

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Speaker 2: Former felony prosecutor Stephanie.

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Speaker 1: They always ask for a change a venue.

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Speaker 2: I'm not surprised, but given Boise's track record, I mean,

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Speaker 2: when you don't know a horse, look at the track record,

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Speaker 2: why do they.

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Speaker 1: Want to move to Boise?

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Speaker 2: Do you believe it's because they think they'll get a

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Speaker 2: better shot at a liberal jury. When I say liberal,

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Speaker 2: I'm not talking about who you're going to vote for.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about how you view the system, Like for instance, Stephanie.

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Speaker 2: No way, when I put somebody on the jury that

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Speaker 2: didn't have a job, or that did not had not

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Speaker 2: had a job, or was not retired. If I had

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Speaker 2: a stay at home mom, usually they wanted to get

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Speaker 2: off the jury pool. Because they were worried sick about

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Speaker 2: their child. But if I had one, I wanted one

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Speaker 2: that had worked before.

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Speaker 1: Why, Because they have.

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Speaker 2: A sense of duty, They show up on time, they

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Speaker 2: do their job. I don't want somebody that sits at

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Speaker 2: home watching cartoons all day, you know, eating pop tarts,

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Speaker 2: not interested. I don't want anybody that's had a run

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Speaker 2: in with police before, that has been prosecuted, convicted, or

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Speaker 2: has a dear loved one that has been prosecuted or convicted.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there are a lot, there's a lot that

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Speaker 2: goes into picking a jury.

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Speaker 1: So what is there? What are they up to, Stephanie?

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Speaker 11: Sure, yeah, And I'll add it's not just how someone

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Speaker 11: sees the system, but it may also be how these

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Speaker 11: individuals view the death penalty. And I certainly think that

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Speaker 11: that has something to do with their thinking. But ultimately,

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Speaker 11: I think what the defense is hoping for is a

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Speaker 11: larger jury pool, a larger community of people to pull

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Speaker 11: from in order to potentially see the jury. And all

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Speaker 11: of those things are going to come out in for

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Speaker 11: a dire If individual has been previously convicted, if they

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Speaker 11: have a relationship with law enforcement, and so the defense

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Speaker 11: is hoping that they have a larger pool of people

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Speaker 11: to pull from in order to try to see it

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Speaker 11: a fair and impartial You.

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Speaker 2: Mean the defense wants a larger pool of dead bates

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Speaker 2: to pick to put on the jury. I hear you,

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Speaker 2: loud and clear, Stephanie Pitcher joining me, And you may

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Speaker 2: wonder first it was Joe Scott Morgan. Now she's asking

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Speaker 2: renound psychiatrist about jury selection. Yes I am, and I'll

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Speaker 2: tell you why with me, Doctor Angela Arnold, renounced psychiatrist

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Speaker 2: joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction at Angelo Arnold, MD.

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Speaker 2: There's no way I'll suggest you can judge a book

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Speaker 2: by its cover, because I know a lot better than that.

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Speaker 2: But we have a limited time, and of what dire.

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Speaker 2: We can't find out everything about everybody. We have to

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Speaker 2: trust our gut. We have to look at what we

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Speaker 2: know about that person, which is precious little, before we

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Speaker 2: put them in the box, the jury box.

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Speaker 1: So if I have some woman coming in with her

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Speaker 1: military outfit on, and.

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Speaker 2: I know that she's made it up to what, let's

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Speaker 2: just say, lieutenant, I know she shows up, she focuses, she.

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Speaker 1: Does her job. She's used to reaching a decision up.

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Speaker 2: Against some dead long haired dead bee, doesn't have a job,

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Speaker 2: hasn't had a job, smells like cigarette smoke, looks stoned. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm picking her well.

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Speaker 12: And also Nancy, the person that you just described will

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Speaker 12: All is also more used to speaking to other people

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Speaker 12: and listening to other people's opinions and developing an opinion

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Speaker 12: based on the evidence that's presented. If if someone is

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Speaker 12: chosen from the jury pool that, as you said, sits

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Speaker 12: in front of the TV all day, doesn't really have

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Speaker 12: a lot of interaction with other people in the community,

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Speaker 12: then they are not accustomed to talking to other people

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Speaker 12: and coming up with a decision. Okay, they don't know how.

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Speaker 12: They don't know how to interact and listen to other

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Speaker 12: people's opinions and form a decision on their own. I

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Speaker 12: think that would be a I think that would be

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Speaker 12: a major problem. And that's why they that's why we

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Speaker 12: fill out those forms before we go to a jury

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Speaker 12: to see what our background is, because that's what they're

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Speaker 12: looking for. People that are you know, people that are

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Speaker 12: out there every day that can actually come together and

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Speaker 12: form a decision.

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Speaker 2: Well, another thing is, and I know I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be attacked online by throwing out stereotypes.

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Speaker 1: Believe me, I put on plenty of people on the

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Speaker 1: jury with long hair that looked scraggly.

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Speaker 2: But I liked what they said in Vadier, which coincidentally

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Speaker 2: means to speak the truth. I felt that I connected

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Speaker 2: with them. There was something about them, something that they

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Speaker 2: said that made me think, that's the juror I want.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: There, of course, is the time that I put a

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Speaker 2: convicted bank robber on a bank robbery trial. Unbeknownst to me,

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Speaker 2: I found out after I'd already struck the jury and

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Speaker 2: it was too late to have them thrown off. I

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Speaker 2: had lost my opportunity. We got a conviction. But that said, again,

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Speaker 2: you cannot judge a book by its cover. But maybe

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Speaker 2: they're doing this Stephanie Piccher, a high profile trial lawyer,

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Speaker 2: because it's their best shot. Think about this, Okay, again,

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Speaker 2: this is not about politics, which I hate politics. Fifty

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Speaker 2: point four percent went Trump, forty six point five percent

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Speaker 2: went Biden in Boise.

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Speaker 1: So it's pretty close, but interesting.

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Speaker 2: Forty eight nearly forty nine thousand Democrats one hundred and

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Speaker 2: six thousand Republicans.

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Speaker 1: Does that tell me much?

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Speaker 2: Actually no, because your views on crime very often do

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Speaker 2: not mesh with your views on politics. But maybe they're

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Speaker 2: thinking Stephanie, Hey, yes it's conservative in Boise, but it's

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Speaker 2: more liberal than it is where the murders occurred in Moscow.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, that's certainly true. I definitely think that's part of

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Speaker 11: the consideration for.

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Speaker 1: Them crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Guys, we also have to deal with the fight against

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Speaker 2: the death penalty in this particular jurisdiction of Idaho. It

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Speaker 2: is extremely rare for a death penalty sentence to be

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Speaker 2: handed down. As a matter of fact that on trial,

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Speaker 2: lawyers will tell you the state is seeking the death penalty,

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Speaker 2: it may thwart even getting a guilty conviction.

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Speaker 13: Listen, the death penalty is extremely rare in Idaho, and

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Speaker 13: it is carried out even more rarely. There have only

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Speaker 13: been three successful executions in the state since the federal

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Speaker 13: government lifted a ban on capital punishment in nineteen seventy six.

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Speaker 13: Those sentenced to death are automatically granted a post conviction

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Speaker 13: review and an appeal opportunity. Their cases often go before

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Speaker 13: the Supreme Court to confirm the capital punishment.

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Speaker 2: By now, legal battle being waged in the courtroom. First

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Speaker 2: ever change a venue to liberal Boise their words, not mine,

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Speaker 2: and the fight over the death penalty.

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Speaker 14: Listen Coberger's defense team has until September seventh to file

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Speaker 14: their motion to strike the death penalty, and Taylor has

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Speaker 14: frequently argued that the state is withholding evidence and she

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Speaker 14: may do so again in an attempt to borrow a

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Speaker 14: death penalty sentence. The jury must be death penalty qualified

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Speaker 14: and must find one aggravating circumstance exists in the four

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Speaker 14: victims deaths. The jury must come to a unanimous decision

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Speaker 14: to inflict the capital punishment.

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Speaker 2: What is an aggravating circumstance is a circumstance in death

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Speaker 2: penalty cases that may or may not exist in other cases,

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Speaker 2: such as, the victim is a child, the victim is

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Speaker 2: a senior, you killed a police officer, you killed a

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Speaker 2: judge or a politician.

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Speaker 1: You committed mass murder, in other words, more than one body.

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Speaker 2: Your case was particularly heinous as it compares to other cases.

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Speaker 2: You killed someone for a pecuniary or money interest, you

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Speaker 2: lie in weight which shows cold blood, or you committed

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Speaker 2: a murder in the commission of another felony such as rape,

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Speaker 2: armed robbery. Those are a few aggravating circumstances that are

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Speaker 2: recognized across the country by DP death penalty states. To

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Speaker 2: Chris mcdonnah joining me, director at the Cold Case Foundation,

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Speaker 2: former homicide detective with under over three hundred homicide investigations

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Speaker 2: under his belt. I found him where he's the host

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Speaker 2: of a YouTube channel, the Interview Room. On this case,

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Speaker 2: Chris McDonough, After you have given your blood, sweat and

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Speaker 2: tears literally on a homicide investigation, how does it feel

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Speaker 2: to sit back and watch the lawyers go at it

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Speaker 2: in the courtroom over change of venue or arguing against

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Speaker 2: the death penalty in a death penalty state?

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Speaker 1: How does that make law enforcement feel?

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Speaker 7: You know, nancry?

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Speaker 8: At times it can be very frustrating. But then the

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Speaker 8: other side of the coin is if the defense is

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Speaker 8: completely off the rails, I mean moving to boise, they

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Speaker 8: obviously haven't done their homework yet. Because that in the

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Speaker 8: law enforcement community is called the blue dot. And what

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Speaker 8: I mean by that there are so many retired law

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Speaker 8: enforcement officers living in that jurisdiction. Good luck getting an

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Speaker 8: impartial jury. So when you start hearing stuff like that,

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Speaker 8: you kind of get a little hope that the defense

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Speaker 8: is really headed in the wrong direction.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've never heard that phrase before the description

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Speaker 2: the blue dot. Of course, you know, Chris mcdone. One

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Speaker 2: of the first questions the defense is going to ask

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Speaker 2: is are any of you or anyone.

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Speaker 1: Close to you in law enforcement. Have you ever heard

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Speaker 1: that question? Asked hearing for Dyer.

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Speaker 8: Absolutely absolutely. In fact, I used to tell all my friends,

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Speaker 8: tell them you know me and you'll get out of

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Speaker 8: jury duty.

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Speaker 2: Tee. I've never said anything like that. But that said,

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Speaker 2: what more do we know about the death penalty and Idaho?

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Speaker 1: We know it's extremely rare. We know that it is

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Speaker 1: conducted with the needle.

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Speaker 2: We know that if the drugs for execution by lethal injection,

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Speaker 2: which is the needle, are not obtained, you don't have the.

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Speaker 1: Drugs to make that work, which there's a shortage.

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Speaker 2: By the way, the alternative is firing squad to Joe

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan, tell me about the drugs necessary to perform

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Speaker 2: a death penalty execution by lethal injection.

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Speaker 6: Well, in Idaho they actually use pheno barbitol, which has

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Speaker 6: traditionally been used as an anti seizure medication, but it

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Speaker 6: has lethal effects when given in the proper dosages. And

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Speaker 6: when they talk about these cocktails, what they're saying is

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Speaker 6: and this goes to this idea of cruel and and

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Speaker 6: you know, cruel and unusual. They will give the individual

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Speaker 6: kind of a sedative beforehand. It's like a precursor to

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Speaker 6: anesthesia that'll kind of put them in this relaxed state

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Speaker 6: where they're kind of in a dream like state, and

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Speaker 6: then they'll push the phena barb at that point in time.

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Speaker 6: And you know, you hear these accounts with people that

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Speaker 6: are in the death chamber or the reporters that are

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Speaker 6: on the side of the glass and they're saying, well,

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Speaker 6: he began to labor in breathing this sort of thing.

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Speaker 6: We could hear it, you know, and he started snoring.

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Speaker 1: You hear that a lot.

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Speaker 6: And then all of a sudden they go to sleep

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Speaker 6: at that point in time, and it's it's almost in

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Speaker 6: a comato state until their heart stops.

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Speaker 1: Scott, are you telling me they basically fall asleep.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, to a certain degree. Just anybody that's ever undergoing surgery,

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Speaker 6: you know where you have that kind of dark, you know,

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Speaker 6: moment that kind of washes over you where you have

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Speaker 6: no memory of it.

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Speaker 2: Now, that has never happened to me, Joe Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 2: I say, this is not going to work. But okay

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Speaker 2: four three, two one, and then I say, well, aren't

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Speaker 2: we starting.

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Speaker 1: And it's over. That's what happens to me. There's no

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Speaker 1: in between. That's terrifil.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying that with the lethal cocktail lethal injection,

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Speaker 2: the defendant will basically fall asleep. Could you, and I'm

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Speaker 2: going to follow this up with Howard Bloom and Chris McDonough,

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Speaker 2: could you just tell me, could you give me the dichotomy,

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Speaker 2: the comparison to what these four young.

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Speaker 1: Students went through.

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Speaker 2: And you know, Joe Scott, my children are all looking

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Speaker 2: at colleges right now, and every time I think about

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Speaker 2: this case, I think about in two years they would

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Speaker 2: be where these four beautiful students were in school, happy, happy, happy,

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Speaker 2: pursuing their dreams, their lives before them. What happened to them,

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, They didn't just fall asleep and never wake up.

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Speaker 6: No, No, the dichotomy is I think probably an understatement.

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Speaker 6: It's it's a harsh reality. Uh, this is a brutal,

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Speaker 6: brutal event that took place, Nancy, and even as a

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Speaker 6: college professor now at the stage in my life, I've

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Speaker 6: had a hard time getting past those events because my

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Speaker 6: town where I teach it's very similar to Moscow, and

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Speaker 6: so I view these students and I you know, it's

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Speaker 6: hard for me not to reflect on this, but it

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Speaker 6: was absolute the height of brutality that all of these

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Speaker 6: kids went through, and compared to what might happen in

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Speaker 6: the event that a death penalty is rendered here and

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Speaker 6: that they would eventually ever follow through with it, it's

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Speaker 6: it's very very merciful compared to what these kids went through, Dancy,

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Speaker 6: and that would be, well, you're talking about multiple sharp

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Speaker 6: force injuries with these kids to what we understand at

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Speaker 6: this point, and you know, one of the things I've

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Speaker 6: always reflected on, Nancy, is that is that with sharp

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Speaker 6: force injuries, one of the things that occurs is that

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Speaker 6: our pain centers fire. Just imagine, if you will, that

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Speaker 6: every time that edged weapon touches the surface of the

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Speaker 6: skin and breaks it, there is another moment in time

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Speaker 6: where that pain center fires, and you've got multiple of

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Speaker 6: these firing all over. Not to mention the hopelessness that

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Speaker 6: you have that you're going to be able to escape this,

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Speaker 6: you can actually fill the warmth of your blood beginning

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Speaker 6: to leach out onto your skin you're breathing becomes labored,

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Speaker 6: but all the while you're trying to fight at a

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Speaker 6: primal level. This is one of the most horrific deaths

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Speaker 6: anybody can experience. I've worked a lot, a lot of

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Speaker 6: sharp force injury deaths over the course of my career,

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Speaker 6: and they are by far and I even compare this

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Speaker 6: to like shotgun wounds. They are by far far the

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Speaker 6: most brutal. I cannot begin and listen. I know why

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Speaker 6: bringing us back to the jury, I know why they

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Speaker 6: want to try to escape the original site that this

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Speaker 6: happened in, because when the jury actually sees Nancy, those

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Speaker 6: images from the interior of this structure, and they see

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Speaker 6: what was done to these kids, their mouth will open.

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Speaker 1: They will be aghast at what they're seeing.

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Speaker 6: They are not going to be able to take the

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Speaker 6: measure of the brutality here.

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Speaker 3: Prosecutors plan to seek the death penalty for the accused

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Speaker 3: Idahost students murderer.

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Speaker 2: Battle is raging even as we are speaking. The death

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Speaker 2: penalty is being warred over in a court of law.

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Speaker 2: Legal briefs firing back and forth. Private investigators for the defense,

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Speaker 2: investigators for the prosecution, working.

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Speaker 1: Day and night.

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Speaker 2: Why to beat the Idaho death penalty, it is typically

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Speaker 2: death by needle, which is lethal injection. If those particular

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Speaker 2: drugs cannot be obtained, it will be death by firing squad.

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Speaker 1: Again, DPS and Idaho are few and far between. Listen.

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Speaker 10: Dennette gene Elg reports to police she has a prowler.

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Speaker 10: Days later, her mutilated body is found on her punctured

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Speaker 10: water bed. Dennette suffers fifteen stab wounds, but did manage

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Speaker 10: to inflict injury on her attacker, Richard Albert Levitt. After

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Speaker 10: killing Denette, Levitt removed her sexual organs, then goes to

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Speaker 10: the emergency room for his own wounds. Levitt's blood at

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Speaker 10: the scene becomes part of the evidence that convicts Levitt

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Speaker 10: and he is sentenced to death. Levitt spends nearly thirty

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Speaker 10: years on death row before the sentence is carried out

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Speaker 10: by lethal injection. June twelfth, twenty twelve, three.

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Speaker 2: Hot senecat daily bed changes with fresh linens, special meals. Okay,

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Speaker 2: he had thirty years of that, Joe Scott Morgan, Did

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Speaker 2: I hear that correctly? That he after killing Dennette he

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Speaker 2: then cut out her sex organs.

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Speaker 6: Yes, that's what you heard, and the height of brutality there.

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Speaker 6: And again this goes to this idea that he languished

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Speaker 6: on death row. And I think that a lot of people,

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Speaker 6: you know, might think, well, it's good that he languished.

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Speaker 6: But this is not going to be a quick process,

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Speaker 6: however you cut it, Nancy, It's just not going to

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Speaker 6: be quick. They're going to sit there for a protracted

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Speaker 6: period of time.

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Speaker 1: Languish.

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Speaker 2: I mean, got online girlfriends with funneled money, gained notoriety.

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Speaker 1: All right, if you call that languishing, I do not.

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Speaker 1: But that is the ilk.

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Speaker 7: That is the.

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Speaker 2: Person that lands on the Idaho death But hold on,

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Speaker 2: wait a minute, what about Paul Rhodes.

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Speaker 1: Listen?

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Speaker 15: In twenty Days, meth addict Paul Rhodes puts Idaho residents

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Speaker 15: in a state of fear. February twenty eighth, twenty one

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Speaker 15: year old Stacy Baldwin is abducted while working at a

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Speaker 15: convenience store in Blackfoot. On March seventeenth, Idaho falls convenience

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Speaker 15: store clerk twenty three year old Nolan Hadden's body is

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Speaker 15: found in the stores walking cooler. Two days later, special

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Speaker 15: education teacher Susan Mickelbacker is abducted in a parking lot,

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Speaker 15: driven to a rural area, raped and shot nine times.

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Speaker 15: Rhodes is convicted and sentenced to death for the murders

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Speaker 15: of Mickelbacker and Baldwin. More than twenty years later, Paul

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Speaker 15: Ezra Rhodes is put to death by lethal injection.

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Speaker 1: Think about it.

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Speaker 2: This, twenty three year old Nolan Hadden is just working

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Speaker 2: at a convenience store when.

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Speaker 1: He is ambushed by Rhodes.

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Speaker 2: Then a special ed teacher, a beloved special teacher, Susan

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Speaker 2: Michel Baker, abducted in a parking lot, textbook, driven to

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Speaker 2: a rural area, brutally raped, brutally raped, and then shot

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Speaker 2: nine times. Okay, Paul Ezra Rhodes, of course, righten, hail,

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Speaker 2: But then there's the poster boy for the Idaho death

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Speaker 2: penalty listen.

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Speaker 13: Chad Dabell, now convicted and sentenced to death for the

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Speaker 13: murders of his first wife, Timmy Dabell, and his second

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Speaker 13: wife's two children, Tylie Ryan and jj Vellow, may have

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Speaker 13: a long wait on death row. Dave Bell has yet

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Speaker 13: to be transferred to death row and is entitled to

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Speaker 13: a post conviction review and at least one appeal opportunity.

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Speaker 13: When his death Warren is signed. The appeal process typically

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Speaker 13: goes on for years. The average length of stay before

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Speaker 13: execution in Idaho is currently more than twenty seven years.

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Speaker 2: That's a long time for me to foot the bill

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Speaker 2: for these people. When you think about Chad Dave Bell,

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Speaker 2: we immediately think of little JJ and his teen sister Tylie,

440
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 2: whose body was rendered down like an animal at a

441
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: slaughter house to a bucket of skin and fat.

442
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: Let me let that.

443
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 2: Sink k in for just a moment. But then there's

444
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 2: his wife, Tammy Dave Bell also murdered. Why so he

445
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 2: could sleep with Coltwaum Laurie vallow his pickup line, Hey,

446
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 2: we were married in a previous life, so we might

447
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 2: as well go to the motel now him? Yes, him,

448
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: death penalty Idaho. So what about this case? With those

449
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: cases ringing in their ears? The defense team for Brian

450
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: Coburger fighting tooth and nail to defeat the death penalty.

451
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 2: But reality check before we get bogged down again, no offense,

452
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 2: Stephanie picture with the legalities of the death penalty. To

453
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 2: Howard Bloom, author of When the Night Comes Falling, a

454
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 2: new book chuck full of research about the Brian Coburger murders.

455
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: Excuse me, alegend murders, Howard.

456
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: I would like you and Chris to explain what the

457
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 2: victims went through before they bled out dead.

458
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: Howard, it was a extremely violent and brutal crime.

459
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 7: Consider the suspect went into the third floor bedroom and

460
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 7: found Maddie.

461
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 8: I believe she was awoken from sleep.

462
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 7: Imagine being awakened from a deep sleep and then by

463
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 7: a man above you with a knife. He slaughters her

464
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 7: and then Kelly, though at this point is awake. She

465
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 7: tries to escape. She goes to the back of the

466
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 7: small room. She's wedged up again the bed. She has

467
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 7: her hands up, she's fighting her father has says like

468
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 7: a tiger. She succumbs to her wounds. The killer then walks.

469
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 8: Down this narrow staircase.

470
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,719
Speaker 7: He goes onto the second floor and there is Ethan

471
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 7: to confront him. They've heard the noise, they've heard the

472
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 7: door barking. Before Ethan can say anything, he slashed in

473
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 7: the neck with the knife, and then, most chillingly, the

474
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 7: killer says to Zena, don't worry, I'm not going to

475
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 7: hurt you.

476
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 8: But he does hurt her.

477
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 7: She has defensive wounds. There's a knife wound right through

478
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 7: her palm. She's really fighting for her life, but she

479
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 7: quickly succumbs, and then the killer then begins to.

480
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 8: Leave the house.

481
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 7: It happens very quickly.

482
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 8: It's very brutal.

483
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 7: But imagine being anyone awakened from your deep sleep and

484
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 7: being confronted by a man holding a knife.

485
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: Christ Again, director of Cole Case's Foundation, but for my purposes,

486
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: the star of YouTube channel interview Room, former homicide detect

487
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 2: of three hundred plus homicide investigations under his belt. You know,

488
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: you have been to so many homicide scenes, as says

489
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 2: Joe Scott, explain what these victims went through when we're

490
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 2: talking about a death penalty felon basically falling to sleep,

491
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 2: and I what these four victims lived through is almost indescribable.

492
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: The blood literally pouring down the sides of the house. Explain,

493
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,719
Speaker 2: Chris mcdonnald, you and I have been to this scene.

494
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: Describe what happened to these four students.

495
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, Nancy, you are one thousand percent correct. I mean,

496
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 8: if we think about the brutality of the horror that

497
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 8: took place in that house, and to the point where

498
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 8: they had to destroy the house, which I think is

499
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 8: a mistake. But that aside. Imagine, you know, put yourself

500
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 8: into the let's go to the third floor for a

501
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 8: moment and put ourselves into that room. The two victims

502
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 8: are sleeping, they are obviously attacked brutally, and that was

503
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 8: what was taking place on both floors inside of that

504
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 8: house to the point where today he gets to sit

505
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 8: back to your point and lean over to the defense

506
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 8: counsel and say whatever he says. But those those victims

507
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 8: had no way of ever ever getting their say outside

508
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 8: of the prosecution office.

509
00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 3: Now, if the judge grants a change of venue, will

510
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 3: Brian Coburger face a more conservative jury? How would travel

511
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: to a new location affect proceedings.

512
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 2: Another stumbling block for the state is going to be

513
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: just how one person, Brian Coburger managed to overcome not

514
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: one to three, but four victims. One thing I'd like

515
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: to point out to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,

516
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 2: is that, yes, according to the state, he murdered four people,

517
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: but two of them were actually all four of.

518
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: Them were one at a time.

519
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 2: His victims were asleep or going to sleep, in the

520
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: dark in their beds, unarmed when he comes in, and

521
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: of course two of the victims were sleeping together, but

522
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: he killed one as the other there still lie in

523
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: the bed, and then her. So it's not one against four.

524
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 2: That is a misconception. Every murder was one on one.

525
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 2: Explain how did he pull it off? Because I've heard

526
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 2: it over and over and over by talking heads, say how.

527
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: Did he pull it off? One person kills four? It

528
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: wasn't like that. It was a series of one on ones.

529
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, he's got the element of surprise here. And you're

530
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 6: talking about these college the college kids that are in

531
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 6: this I'm not going to say dream like state, but

532
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 6: you know how it is when and particularly if you've

533
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 6: if you've been out on the town, you have any

534
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 6: outcol in your system, you're laid back, you're relaxed, and

535
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 6: all of a sudden, some demonic force almost sets upon you,

536
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 6: and so you have no idea what's happening at that

537
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 6: moment in time. So for each one of these individuals,

538
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 6: if you've got an individual that is completely sober, they're

539
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 6: focused on what they're doing, and they show up with

540
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 6: a weapon at the scene, like this weapon, because it's

541
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 6: unlike any other kind that's out there, relative to a

542
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 6: combat knife, it's very particular and they know what they're doing,

543
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,479
Speaker 6: then yeah, it's possible to pull it off one by

544
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 6: one and they're not going to put up much of

545
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 6: a defense other than that initial strike where they're aware

546
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 6: that they are being struck. But at that point, Tom,

547
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 6: it's too late.

548
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 2: But to you, Chris McDonald joining us from our homicide detective,

549
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 2: the defense is going to argue, no blood in the car,

550
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 2: no blood on his clothes or shoes found at the home,

551
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: no murder weapon, So how did he pull it off?

552
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: Like Joe Scott Morgan just explain, but yet not have

553
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: any bloody evidence.

554
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 8: Well, you know, that's a great point, but there's no

555
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 8: clothing discovered or recovered. There was some type of you know,

556
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 8: blood evidence that was recovered at his apartment. We don't know.

557
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 8: Remember they did a search warrn over at as apartment

558
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 8: and I think it was on a pillow or a

559
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 8: bedsheet of some sort a comforter where they had tested

560
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 8: positive for blood. We don't know what the results of

561
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 8: that tests are to this point, however, that may be problematic.

562
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 8: Then of course we have the sheath right where we

563
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 8: have the CNA match on that button. As Doc Morgan

564
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 8: has pointed, out numerous occasions to that k bar knife.

565
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 8: So the fact that we don't have any quote, physical

566
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 8: evidence initially in terms of the information that we provided

567
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 8: doesn't mean it doesn't exist yet. And so I think

568
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 8: the defense also has to be very careful when they

569
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 8: go out and they start putting information like that out

570
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 8: into the public arena, because it could come back to

571
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 8: bite them.

572
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: Because another is she let's go to Howard.

573
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: Bloom and Stephan and Angela jump in for Pete's sake.

574
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 2: But to you, Howard Bloom, it's not so much the

575
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 2: evidence is deficient. What about the lack of certain other evidence.

576
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 2: In other words, we know he ordered that k bar

577
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 2: knife and sheath because we have the Amazon record that

578
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: he ordered it, and they probably have a search history

579
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 2: trying to find just the right knife. We have the

580
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 2: exact same sheath at the crime scene. So where's a knife?

581
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 7: You know what?

582
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 2: My husband, I know it's not romantic, gave me a

583
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 2: butcher block of fancy knives.

584
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: Okay, So why would I get rid of one of them?

585
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: Why would one of them.

586
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 2: Other than my ninety two year old mother putting it

587
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 2: down the disposal in the kitchen.

588
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: Other than that, why would I get rid of a knife.

589
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: We've got the lack of that knife. What did he

590
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: do with it? And why we know he.

591
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 2: Ordered that Dicky's like a repairman's uniform. We have the receipt,

592
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 2: we know he did it.

593
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: Where is it?

594
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 2: Why did he get rid of it? So the lack

595
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 2: of certain evidence must be taken into account. But my

596
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: question to you redirecting is a stumbling WoT. How did

597
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 2: he do it? One against four? And how did he

598
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 2: get away with it? Where's the evidence?

599
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 8: What we're missing is specifics.

600
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 7: But what you have to see is that all the

601
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 7: pieces of the evidence, when they're merged together, form a

602
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 7: very coherent hole. And all the evidence that you've cited,

603
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 7: there's one piece that you've left out. After he was arrested,

604
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 7: they did a cheek swab of his DNA. This cheek

605
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 7: swab taken directly from him, matched the DNA taken from

606
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 7: the button of the knife sheath. So all these specific

607
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 7: pieces form a coherent hole. And the defense will try

608
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 7: to impugne as you have said, the DNA, they'll try

609
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 7: to impune the telephone of triangulations. But when it all

610
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 7: comes together, the evidence, I feel is overwhelming, and that's

611
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,879
Speaker 7: why they're so concerned about the death penalty. That's also

612
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 7: why I believe they're trying to.

613
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 8: Move the venue, not that they think they'll.

614
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 7: Get a better trial elsewhere in the state. They're trying

615
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 7: to buy time.

616
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 8: This is a very cynical strategy.

617
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 2: And another thing about Howard Bloom's book, When the Night

618
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 2: Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho student murders, he

619
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 2: and I got a ton of hate mail online the

620
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: last time he discussed his book. Let me tell you something.

621
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 2: He didn't just make all that up. He sourced everything

622
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 2: he wrote in that book. Now, if you disagree with him, fine,

623
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 2: but this is not.

624
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: Siction that he wrote. And When the Night Comes Falling there's.

625
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 7: An unarticulated premise in all of this. A lot of

626
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 7: people from Hollywood came into the town of Moscow, a

627
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 7: lot of other authors. There's a lot of money being

628
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 7: thrown around. A lot of people were offered deals. I

629
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 7: thought about giving money to people involved in the case,

630
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 7: but as a New York Times reporter, ultimately it didn't

631
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 7: sit right with me.

632
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 8: I just didn't want to roll that way.

633
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 7: But now people feel that if I'm telling this story,

634
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 7: they are losing their business.

635
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 8: Opportunity.

636
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: Oh so the genesis of some of your hate mail.

637
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: Okay, Stephanie Pitcher joining me, high profile lawyer in this

638
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 2: jurisdiction of Idaho and Utah. By the way, Stephanie, the

639
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 2: import of what's missing. It's not just okay, my mom

640
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: stuck one of my brand new knives down the disposal

641
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 2: of the kitchen. That knife didn't prove anything. The things

642
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 2: that are missing out of Coburg's apartment are probative. They

643
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 2: prove something. So why are those things missing and nothing

644
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 2: else is missing? Why the knife that he just bought

645
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 2: on Amazon? Why is it missing? Why is the Dicky's

646
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: uniform that he just thought we've gotten the receipt?

647
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: Why is it missing.

648
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 2: It's not like I'm missing one of his own notebooks

649
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 2: from the eighth grade that proves nothing. The items missing

650
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 2: are probative, Stephanie.

651
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: Sure.

652
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 11: I mean, I think that this was not a random

653
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 11: attack or a random murder. He thought this out, and

654
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 11: evidence shows that the evidence shows that he turned off

655
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 11: his phone as he was driving, I mean, as he

656
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 11: approached the scene.

657
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: He I think he has.

658
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 11: Taken several steps not only to plan this, but to

659
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 11: also cover it up. And that's what the evidence I

660
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 11: think suggests at least what the public has.

661
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 3: Brian Cooberger's defense files for a trial venue change, citing extensive,

662
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,720
Speaker 3: ongoing and inflammatory publicity. Will the motion be successful?

663
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 2: Legal battle brewing as we go to Airton Doctor Angela Arnold,

664
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 2: psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Doctor Angie, I find

665
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: those missing pe of evidence.

666
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: Very primitive to me. I mean, it could be argued, hey,

667
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: where's the murder weapon? And my response is, hey, why

668
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: did he throw away a brand new knife? Where did

669
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,439
Speaker 1: that go? Where did that brand new uniform go? And more?

670
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 1: Explain the thinking behind that, Nancy.

671
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 12: It speaks to his state of mind through this, and

672
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 12: it speaks to the fact that he knew what he

673
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 12: was doing, and he knew that he had to get

674
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 12: away with it, and he had. And as some of

675
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 12: the previous guests have said, he planned this from start

676
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 12: to finish, and his ultimate mistake was leaving that knife

677
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 12: sheath at the scene, and that's what's going to get him.

678
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 12: But this shows that he planned every ounce of this.

679
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfolds in the Brian Coburger prosecution.

680
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 2: Nancy Gray signing off, Give thy Friend