Speaker 1: I'd love to think that if we had a more
Speaker 1: wonder prone society, we would meet each other with greater tolerance,
Speaker 1: with more openness, with more curiosity, with more empathy, and
Speaker 1: that it would create a more tolerant world.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast. Today's episode is
Speaker 2: sponsored by Unlikely Collaborators. Their mission is to untangle the
Speaker 2: stories that hold us back as individuals, communities, nations, and
Speaker 2: humanity at large, using the Perception Box lens. They do
Speaker 2: this through storytelling, experiences, impact investments, and scientific research. Unlikely
Speaker 2: Collaborators the only way forward is inward. Later on in
Speaker 2: this episode, I'll talk a lot more about the Perception
Speaker 2: Box and how it leads to this episode, But right now,
Speaker 2: let me tell you about today's guest. Today, we welcome
Speaker 2: Monica Parker to the show. Monica is the founder of
Speaker 2: global human Analytics and change consultancy HATCHED, whose clients include
Speaker 2: blue chip companies such as LinkedIn, Google, Crudential, and Lego.
Speaker 2: Her career has been nothing short of colorful, having been
Speaker 2: an opera singer, a museum exhibition designer, a policy director,
Speaker 2: a Chamber of Commerce CEO, and a homicide investigator. She's
Speaker 2: also a world renowned speaker, writer, and the author of
Speaker 2: the book The Power of Wonder. In this episode, I
Speaker 2: talked to Monica Parker about the power of wonder. In
Speaker 2: today's fast paced world, most people fail to notice the
Speaker 2: richness of life to become more wonder prone. Monica encourages
Speaker 2: us all to slow down and pursue meaningful exploration. When
Speaker 2: we pay more attention to the world, we become more empathetic, resilient,
Speaker 2: and exuberant. Monica shares with us her Cycles of Wonder
Speaker 2: framework and how we can be more open and present
Speaker 2: in our daily lives. We also touch on the topics
Speaker 2: of personality, post traumatic growth, mindfulness, and education. I really
Speaker 2: enjoy chatting with Monica about a topic that's very near
Speaker 2: and dear to my heart, and we also geek out
Speaker 2: about other things that are also near and dear to
Speaker 2: my heart, such as importance of mind wandering and productive daydreaming,
Speaker 2: for instance. I really appreciate Monica and her deep dive
Speaker 2: into the science and her appreciation of wonder in this world.
Speaker 2: So that's fair, Ado, I bring you Monica Parker. Monica Parker,
Speaker 2: welcome to the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 3: Thank you Scott. It's great to be here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been when you talk to you for a
Speaker 2: long time. You wrote this book called The Power of Wonder,
Speaker 2: The Extraordinary Emotion that will change the way you live, learn,
Speaker 2: and lead. You have an interesting background. You know. I
Speaker 2: usually have scientists on my podcast, but I wanted to
Speaker 2: have you on the show. You have such a fascinating
Speaker 2: life and perspective on the topic of wonder. Correct me
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong. But were you a homicide investigator? I was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was a homicide investigator for the Department of
Speaker 1: Justice in Florida. But I worked with the defense teams
Speaker 1: to try to get people off death.
Speaker 2: Roat Okay, and then what followed that career? What was journalism?
Speaker 2: Was that immediately after? Or no?
Speaker 1: So from there I went on to running nonprofits for
Speaker 1: quite a while and working with children with disabilities, and
Speaker 1: then from that point I went and got my master's
Speaker 1: degree in organizational behavior and then started my company called Hatch.
Speaker 1: So I like to think of myself as an applied scientist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, nice, nice, I like that. Well, maybe a lot
Speaker 2: of people in the health professions helping professions are applied scientists. Okay, Well,
Speaker 2: when did you start to become interested in the topic
Speaker 2: of wonder. Did you experience the feeling of wonder at
Speaker 2: all when you were a homicide investigator? I want to
Speaker 2: pick up that thread a little bit for a second.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I think that I started to investigate wonder because in
Speaker 1: my work as a change manager, I wanted to help
Speaker 1: people be more resilient in change. And as I started
Speaker 1: to research, I found that there was a red line
Speaker 1: going all the way back to the work that I
Speaker 1: did as a homicide investigator, which is that some people
Speaker 1: who have such grim futures and have had terrible paths,
Speaker 1: just certain people are able to be more resilient, more buoyant.
Speaker 1: And when I discovered really looking at it is that
Speaker 1: people who held their world with a great deal of wonder,
Speaker 1: we're just better able to deal with what life through
Speaker 1: it them. And so it's really picking this up about
Speaker 1: five years ago and tracking back to the work that
Speaker 1: I've been doing to see that there's this connectivity of
Speaker 1: wonder all the way through it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think there's sort of like a taboo against
Speaker 2: having wonder for things that socially you're supposed to have
Speaker 2: discussed for And I think that's a problem that you
Speaker 2: know that you can be like shun socially shun for
Speaker 2: having wonder, you know. And there are a lot of
Speaker 2: situations right now in America. Someone doesn't agree with someone,
Speaker 2: they want to punch them in the face. But I
Speaker 2: like to just have wonder, you know. I'd just lean
Speaker 2: into that. Is that bad? Does that make me a
Speaker 2: bad person? That I want to have wonder for things
Speaker 2: I don't even necessarily agree with.
Speaker 3: Not at all?
Speaker 1: And that's actually one of the powers I think of
Speaker 1: wonder is that we I think as humans, we become
Speaker 1: a bit obsessed with happiness. And I've had some people say, oh,
Speaker 1: you hate happiness. But I'm not the grinch that stole happiness,
Speaker 1: I promise, But I feel that we are so focused
Speaker 1: on and always these positively valanced emotions, and it's just
Speaker 1: not a steady state, right Our world is full of
Speaker 1: really difficult things, And the beauty of wonder is that
Speaker 1: we can experience difficult things, hard things to discuss, and
Speaker 1: still feel a sense of wonder in that. And in
Speaker 1: that then I think we're able to better sort of
Speaker 1: metabolize what we're experiencing.
Speaker 2: Nie and metabolize what we are experiencing. That's a very
Speaker 2: technical phrasing. There that's something an applied scientist would say. Okay,
Speaker 2: so that's one of the powers. I mean, you talked
Speaker 2: about a lot of powers. I want to go through
Speaker 2: some of the powers. What's a potential downside before I
Speaker 2: get to all the powers?
Speaker 3: Well, a potential downside.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I did research is potentially
Speaker 1: cults is a potential downside that if we become so
Speaker 1: in awe of a person, there is a degree of
Speaker 1: plasticity that occurs, and certainly what gets planted in that,
Speaker 1: you know, that sort of fertile ground could be something
Speaker 1: positive or negative. So I think that that could be
Speaker 1: a potential negative. But other than that, I think that
Speaker 1: it's just an opportunity for us to see the world
Speaker 1: through a different lens, and through a lens that I
Speaker 1: think is more sustainable and more resilient than a lot
Speaker 1: of the positive thinking movement that is very focused on
Speaker 1: just happiness.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you distinguished these things. Is
Speaker 2: wonder always an emotion? I mean, I think it's interesting
Speaker 2: that you have in the site peddle the extraordinary emotion.
Speaker 2: You could have easily have said the extraordinary cognition and
Speaker 2: emotion interaction. You know, you could have that wouldn't be
Speaker 2: a sexy No.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, you know, how books are written,
Speaker 1: we don't usually get to pick our titles. But I actually,
Speaker 1: when I describe it, I call it an emotional experience,
Speaker 1: So you know, it starts with openness to experience, which
Speaker 1: is not an emotion, it's a personality trait, moves into curiosity,
Speaker 1: which is the two one that we would have. That's
Speaker 1: sort of the sense of curiosity the noun of wonder,
Speaker 1: then moving into absorption, which could be a state or
Speaker 1: a trait, and then finishing with awe, which is what
Speaker 1: I see as sort of the noun of wonder. You
Speaker 1: experiencing a wonder, And I wanted to link all of
Speaker 1: those concepts together into one, I guess, almost a cycle
Speaker 1: of wonder, because each time we experienced one of those components,
Speaker 1: were more likely to experience them in the future, and
Speaker 1: it becomes this additive upward spiral that's very positive for us.
Speaker 2: I like that very Barbara Fredericks interview. I love that, Okay,
Speaker 2: So what is the difference between the experience of wonder
Speaker 2: and the experience of awe? Are they the same thing?
Speaker 1: I see aw as a subset of wonder. So I
Speaker 1: see a as sort of the wow and woe. The
Speaker 1: way I describe it is it's watch wander, whittle, wow
Speaker 1: and woe, and the wow and woe the big fireworks
Speaker 1: at the end of the wonder cycle. But one of
Speaker 1: the reasons why I didn't just research AWE is because
Speaker 1: I I wanted people to not feel that it was
Speaker 1: this rare and fleeting thing that sort of if we
Speaker 1: were lucky enough, we chanced upon it. I wanted people
Speaker 1: to recognize that there's a process, it's not just about
Speaker 1: the destination. That there's this you know, ramp that we
Speaker 1: take a taking off into AWE, and that that can
Speaker 1: have just as much value as the AWE experience as well.
Speaker 1: And so each one of the components has its own
Speaker 1: benefit and beauty to it, and of course AWE being
Speaker 1: something that's tremendously impactful for us. But I see it
Speaker 1: as a subset of wonder.
Speaker 2: Now, where did you come up with these five elements?
Speaker 2: Does that you came of that from your own head
Speaker 2: of wonder?
Speaker 1: It was when I started I started researching wonder and
Speaker 1: trying to exactly what you say to parse apart well,
Speaker 1: what is wonder as opposed to awe, and what I
Speaker 1: found that spiritually, etymologically that wonder was.
Speaker 3: Different from awe. And then I started considering, well, we
Speaker 3: have the verb to wonder, how do we link these
Speaker 3: two pieces?
Speaker 1: And what I kept coming back to is that openness
Speaker 1: to experience seems to be the foundation of all of this,
Speaker 1: and so starting understanding openness to experience, that people who
Speaker 1: are more open are more likely to experience these other elements.
Speaker 1: And then I just found that absorption seemed to be
Speaker 1: this connecting point. And I think you and I actually
Speaker 1: talked about that that absorption could almost be a light
Speaker 1: flow state or a light self transcendental experience as opposed
Speaker 1: to maybe it's just a some people say it's actually
Speaker 1: a type of super deep curiosity. And so to me,
Speaker 1: that seemed to link those two concepts. And this is
Speaker 1: my thesis I guess that I've put forward.
Speaker 2: No, it does help make some finally greened distinctions that
Speaker 2: we don't often see in the psychological literature. And like
Speaker 2: you said, each one of these five have their own
Speaker 2: sort of thing going on.
Speaker 3: Is that a scientific expression thing going on?
Speaker 2: Yes? It is, it is, Yeah, say the only one
Speaker 2: that I don't that I need a little more clarification
Speaker 2: on is wittle When I'm in a wittle state, what's
Speaker 2: going on? Is that a good thing? Do I want
Speaker 2: to be in a little seat.
Speaker 1: It's about pairing back extraneous noise. It's about becoming super
Speaker 1: hyper focused. I think if we consider awe, yes, we
Speaker 1: could be slapped across the face with something that's really
Speaker 1: awe inspiring. But if we're defined one the quotidian, then
Speaker 1: we need to do that by finding a certain degree
Speaker 1: of presence. Right, we have to really be present in
Speaker 1: our environment. And if we're letting that chattering monkey mind
Speaker 1: go on and we're not paying attention, then we have
Speaker 1: the we're going to miss potentially that awe experience. And
Speaker 1: so this is really about pairing back the attention that
Speaker 1: we tend to give to too much of things. And
Speaker 1: I like the description. I don't know if you're familiar
Speaker 1: with Frank Lloyd Wright, but he talks about this design
Speaker 1: idea which he calls compression and release, which is that
Speaker 1: if you put people into a space that's very dark
Speaker 1: and compressed, and then you show them the differential of
Speaker 1: these big, beautiful rooms, that it makes it feel that
Speaker 1: much more impactful and so I think that this is
Speaker 1: also a way of reminding us that our brain notices difference,
Speaker 1: and if we're able to get into a zone where
Speaker 1: we're very focused and present, then the awe experience will
Speaker 1: be I think, more easily seen or noticed noticed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, are these these five elements they do
Speaker 2: they all interact with each other? Or is it like
Speaker 2: a hierarchy? Is it like you integrate?
Speaker 3: I would? I think I see it as a cycle.
Speaker 1: I see that it starts with that the openness to
Speaker 1: experience is the is the is the foundation, and then
Speaker 1: moving into curiosity that if we have some kind of
Speaker 1: epistemic curiosity what I sort of call deep curiosity, because
Speaker 1: of course there's so many different models of curiosity that
Speaker 1: I wanted to make it simple that there's sort of
Speaker 1: shallow curiosity, which is like smelling the milk to know
Speaker 1: if it's gone off, and then deep curiosity, which is
Speaker 1: just the exploration for the enjoyment of it, and then
Speaker 1: moving from that into sort of falling down a rabbit
Speaker 1: hole into something that's quite deep. And then I describe
Speaker 1: AH as having two pieces. That's the wow and woe,
Speaker 1: because of course it's the experience and then the accommodation
Speaker 1: of it. And I felt that that was sort of
Speaker 1: a especially when they talk about that at the end
Speaker 1: of an all experience, your brain is forever changed.
Speaker 3: I just thought, like, you know, mind blown is the woe?
Speaker 3: So to me, I find it quite descriptive the.
Speaker 2: Say, and you know the hypnotist hypnosis field, that you
Speaker 2: can't no one can really be hypnotized against their will
Speaker 2: in a way, like most of the people are really
Speaker 2: open to the experience and being hypnotized, and and they
Speaker 2: become hypnotized. But is it possible to be closed minded
Speaker 2: and to suddenly encounter something where you're like, whoa, you know, like,
Speaker 2: can your mind be changed even if you are closed minded?
Speaker 2: Is there any hope for half of this country?
Speaker 3: I think there's absolutely hope.
Speaker 1: And the thing is, that's why the presence element is
Speaker 1: so important, because if it's such a big shift from
Speaker 1: what you experience, what you expect to it happened, you know,
Speaker 1: the expectation violation, which is the start of awe, then
Speaker 1: you will you will be forced to notice it. But
Speaker 1: if you are rushing, if you already have your preconceived
Speaker 1: notions of what the single right answer is, then yeah,
Speaker 1: you may miss it and some of the work of
Speaker 1: Glancy with the need for cognition as opposed to need
Speaker 1: for cognitive closure. That connects also to sort of this
Speaker 1: deep curiosity and to our likelihood of experiencing AWE and
Speaker 1: I love the work that he does that says, you know,
Speaker 1: people who are high and need for cognition are more tolerant,
Speaker 1: and that is something unlike openness to experience, which there's
Speaker 1: debates about whether you can change that or not being
Speaker 1: a personality trait. Some people I spoke to said absolutely not,
Speaker 1: and others that our brains are always changing, but need
Speaker 1: for cognition and need for cognitive closure are things we
Speaker 1: can practice so we can become less cognitively closed and
Speaker 1: more open in that sense, and that becomes sort of
Speaker 1: a mechanism to support some of the things that maybe
Speaker 1: we were born with or that were fixed by the
Speaker 1: time we're in our twenties.
Speaker 2: Today's podcast is sponsored by Unlikely Collaborators. Their mission is
Speaker 2: to untangle the stories that hold us back as individuals, communities, nations,
Speaker 2: and humanity at large using the perception box lens. They
Speaker 2: do this through storytelling, experiences, impact investments, and scientific research.
Speaker 2: Today's conversation with Monica really illustrates the importance of expanding
Speaker 2: the walls of our perception box. The perception box is
Speaker 2: the invisible mental box that we all live inside, and
Speaker 2: it can seriously hinder our ability to understand one another
Speaker 2: and to understand ourselves. In this episode, Monica vividly describes
Speaker 2: the wonder cycle, with each cycle having its own benefits
Speaker 2: and beauty offering an opportunity for discovery about ourselves and
Speaker 2: how we see the world world. She points out that
Speaker 2: wonder is better than happiness. While happiness isn't sustainable all
Speaker 2: the time, we can cultivate a sense of wonder for
Speaker 2: our everyday moments, both the light and dark of our lives.
Speaker 2: From a perception box perspective, expanding our perception box helps
Speaker 2: us enter a self transcendent state of consciousness. When we
Speaker 2: are in a judgmental state of mind, we hold so
Speaker 2: many assumptions about ourselves and others, many which are very limiting.
Speaker 2: The act of engaging in curiosity itself can expand our
Speaker 2: perception box, and once your walls are expanded, you can
Speaker 2: increase your sense of wonder and compassion for others who
Speaker 2: may be even very different from yourself. Curiosity is the
Speaker 2: gateway to wonder because it leads to surprising new information
Speaker 2: about others and the world. Also, in order to have
Speaker 2: wonder for something, you have to pay close attention to it,
Speaker 2: and that often requires letting go of all the stories
Speaker 2: you've held about something. This letting go process expands your
Speaker 2: perception box and allows you to be more open to
Speaker 2: the wonder of everyday experience, just as Monica so brilliantly
Speaker 2: describes in this episode. To find out more about unlikely
Speaker 2: collaborators and the perception box, go to Unlikely Collaborators dot com.
Speaker 2: Seems like a lot of other personality traits have elevants here,
Speaker 2: like what about the neuroticism, domean of personality or OCD,
Speaker 2: you know, like it seems like score very extremely high
Speaker 2: in those They might be inhibitors of wonder.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and what I think is really interesting is to
Speaker 1: see the work that's being done obviously with psychedelics and
Speaker 1: people with OCD that potentially the awe experience can short
Speaker 1: circuit that rumination. But absolutely what we're trying to get
Speaker 1: away from is the rumative mind and that chattering monkey
Speaker 1: mind and more into something that is absorbed and even
Speaker 1: we've talked about it daydreaming, but the positive type of daydreaming,
Speaker 1: not the rumative sort.
Speaker 2: Yeah's I've spent my career looking at that.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about the wander part.
Speaker 2: Not all minds that wander are loss. Is that right?
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly?
Speaker 1: It's the this is the curiosity element the verb of
Speaker 1: to wonder. And I find it particularly exciting because there
Speaker 1: I know that there is a habit that we have
Speaker 1: that we think we're being curious when we're sort of
Speaker 1: scrolling through our phones or that hopping from one idea
Speaker 1: to another. But I am hoping that people will start
Speaker 1: to see the benefit in that deep curiosity and curiosity
Speaker 1: that has meaning, that is for the enjoyment of exploration,
Speaker 1: and that that again is a muscle that we can
Speaker 1: we can flex, that we can learn over time to use.
Speaker 1: And I love some of the more recent research showing
Speaker 1: that curiosity may be the difference between whether we experience
Speaker 1: post traumatic stress as opposed to traumatic growth. I saw
Speaker 1: some work I think it was cashed and that said that,
Speaker 1: and I think that it's really interesting as we start
Speaker 1: to unfold what curiosity can be for us other than
Speaker 1: just something that frankly was you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: people see it or used to see it as a negative, right,
Speaker 1: curiosity killed the cat, and so recognizing the benefit of
Speaker 1: deep curiosity and for the exploration of.
Speaker 2: It, curious people are curious what killed the cat?
Speaker 1: There you go, and curiosity is it's heart. It's the
Speaker 1: I guess, the foundation of empathy as well. Right, we
Speaker 1: know that if you are empathetic, it's really about being
Speaker 1: genuinely curious about another human being. And I also find
Speaker 1: the interpersonal elements of curiosity particularly fascinating. The research that
Speaker 1: shows that if you ask someone questions about themselves that
Speaker 1: are genuinely curious, that person will find you more attractive,
Speaker 1: which is at a great for anybody who's dating in
Speaker 1: the world. You know, to be genuinely curious, and I
Speaker 1: think that that that interpersonal element. Doctors perform better when
Speaker 1: they're genuinely curious about their patients. And so this interpersonal
Speaker 1: element of curiosity to me is very exciting as well.
Speaker 2: I'm super interested in that as well. I want to
Speaker 2: not gloss over this PTSD versus post traumatic growth distinction
Speaker 2: you make. It's a very important one. You can also
Speaker 2: be experiencing PTSD at the same time that you are
Speaker 2: experiencing post traumatic growth. They're not either or situations. But
Speaker 2: can you go more into what people who are suffering
Speaker 2: from ruminative trauma how, you know, how can some of
Speaker 2: how can Wonder help them? Be more explicit about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well what I have You're more the expert in
Speaker 1: this probably than I am. But what I've discovered is
Speaker 1: that it's really about being able to to some degree,
Speaker 1: and I'm know that we've talked about the default mode
Speaker 1: network and that sometimes it gets a little bit blamed
Speaker 1: for some things. It's not always bad, but it's about
Speaker 1: being able to start to short circuit that in a
Speaker 1: positive way. So that's the rumination. Also, there was some
Speaker 1: research done around that there's a hippocampal role in people
Speaker 1: who experience post traumatic stress, and that Wonder does trigger
Speaker 1: the hippocampus, and certainly curiosity does as well, So there
Speaker 1: might be some way that it's increasing the strength of
Speaker 1: the hippocampus in some way that allows people to be
Speaker 1: more resilient. It was a twin study that yeah, showed
Speaker 1: that small those with the smaller hippocampus were more likely
Speaker 1: to experience post traumatic stress. So I think that there's
Speaker 1: a lot of different ways that it can connect in,
Speaker 1: but obviously that's still being explored. And as not being
Speaker 1: a researcher, I'm just sort of like a ganet, just
Speaker 1: collecting all the different little bits that I can and
Speaker 1: seeing the picture that it creates.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're very curious that the research literature, and
Speaker 2: you're you're setting a lot of stuff I can tell.
Speaker 2: I can tell you were really citing a lot of
Speaker 2: the literacy.
Speaker 3: And I love scientists.
Speaker 1: I love what you all do, and I think it's
Speaker 1: so exciting, and I love seeing that that sense of
Speaker 1: exploration that scientists make their entire living.
Speaker 2: Over you too. I love when people blame things on
Speaker 2: their brain areas, like, you know, my small hippocampus made
Speaker 2: me do it. You know, like we could start at
Speaker 2: a certain level, we can blame everything on.
Speaker 1: I think the symptoms is like bad brain brain area.
Speaker 2: If we want to find something, you know, every time
Speaker 2: we don't eat, we can do it. Every time every
Speaker 2: time we eat something we know we're not supposed to,
Speaker 2: we can blame our prepunt the cortexic.
Speaker 3: There you go.
Speaker 2: I feel like we live in a society right now
Speaker 2: where everyone likes blaming everyone else for their problems, and
Speaker 2: people are not really taking responsibility for themselves. Even blaming
Speaker 2: a brain area is not really taking responsibility. It's still
Speaker 2: blaming something else, even though it's part of you.
Speaker 1: I agree, and I think that it's making people very fragile.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I do love about
Speaker 1: the benefit of wonder is I think that it makes
Speaker 1: us stronger. I think it allows us to be more resilient.
Speaker 1: It pushes us forward rather than retreating. Right we are
Speaker 1: when we're in a wonder state, we're desirous of moving
Speaker 1: ourselves forward, either into new experiences or new ideas, or
Speaker 1: to new people, And that I think is just contrary
Speaker 1: to fragility, to judgment, to intolerance. So, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: I'm being a Pollyanna, but I'd love to think that
Speaker 1: if we had a more wonder prone society, we would
Speaker 1: meet each other with greater tolerance, with more openness, with
Speaker 1: more curiosity, with more empathy, and that it would create
Speaker 1: a more tolerant world.
Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be nice?
Speaker 3: Amazing?
Speaker 2: How does wonder like shift our perceptions, you know, of
Speaker 2: of reality and maybe even shift what's possible in our lives,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean isn't it. You know, we often
Speaker 2: get these these blinders on or you know, yeah, we
Speaker 2: get these blinders and we get stuck in these in
Speaker 2: our perception boxes, as my friend calls it. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: like what what how can we get out of it?
Speaker 1: I think that it allows us to start connecting the
Speaker 1: dots in ways that maybe we hadn't before. And of course,
Speaker 1: if we want to throw in psychedelics in the mix,
Speaker 1: I mean that certainly can be a mechanism for changing
Speaker 1: the way that we see the world. But I don't
Speaker 1: think that we all just have to go and take
Speaker 1: mushrooms in order to have that experience. I think that
Speaker 1: we can experience it through big wonder moments. We can
Speaker 1: experience it through deep meditation, which is sort of slow
Speaker 1: thought that helps us get us closer to wonder.
Speaker 3: But to me, it's just.
Speaker 1: About being actually looking at our world as opposed to
Speaker 1: assuming what we think we're going to see. And that
Speaker 1: is one of the challenges, is that we're always so busy,
Speaker 1: always moving forward, always believing we know what the next
Speaker 1: thing will be, that we miss so many opportunities for
Speaker 1: just amazing, mind blowing wonder, and yet we just rush
Speaker 1: right by it. You know, the perfect autumn leaf, or
Speaker 1: a beautiful strain of music, or even just the way
Speaker 1: that you look into somebody else's eyes. But we're just
Speaker 1: in such a hurry that we're missing so much of it.
Speaker 4: Ah or whoa, whoa, whoa?
Speaker 2: Who was deeper than wow in your five part model.
Speaker 3: It's it's the last. It's the last, It's the last.
Speaker 4: But yep, yeah, whoa silocybin wow in marijuana.
Speaker 3: Interesting?
Speaker 2: Interesting, That was a good point, Scott, That was a
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Speaker 2: Psych podcast. Can you explain the concept of slow thought
Speaker 2: for me, because that seems relate to what you're doing
Speaker 2: saying about kind of having a little more patience and.
Speaker 3: Le bit Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I use that thank Goodness eason to describe anything
Speaker 1: that helps us slow down. So it's going to be
Speaker 1: something that definitely helps us create a presence practice that
Speaker 1: gives us a greater degree of attentional control. So again,
Speaker 1: meditation being one of those ways that we can do it.
Speaker 1: Narrative journaling, nostalgia, I think is even a fascinating way.
Speaker 1: Just reflecting daydreaming could be a slow thought practice, positive
Speaker 1: constructive daydreaming, not the rumative kind, gratitude practice or prayer,
Speaker 1: anything that allows us to create that sort of small
Speaker 1: self and to explore our inner workings in our inner
Speaker 1: world in a way that is very present in our
Speaker 1: external world, rather than moving through an autopilot, which we
Speaker 1: do so much of. And also I think that our
Speaker 1: technology doesn't necessarily help. I think that we have corporate
Speaker 1: cultures that are very much about move fast and break
Speaker 1: things and there's not a lot of time or respect
Speaker 1: given to slowing down, and I would love to see.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a slow food movement, there's slow slow teaching,
Speaker 1: slow sex, and I think that there can be slow
Speaker 1: thought and that it can really help us connect to
Speaker 1: our inner workings and our inner being.
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, you do cover such a wide range of
Speaker 2: examples in your book, which is something I really liked
Speaker 2: about it and probably something you can bring to the table.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is why you're uniquely poised to write
Speaker 2: such a book. You know, you cover it from architecture
Speaker 2: and which I've definitely experienced whoe you know for lots
Speaker 2: of architecture, the love experience. For sure sex. You just
Speaker 2: talked a little aout slow sex. You can double click on
Speaker 2: that in a second sleep. What does woe sleep look
Speaker 2: like like? Is that like when you really feel rested well.
Speaker 3: I spoke to.
Speaker 1: A couple of different sleep scientists and what they told
Speaker 1: me was that it's really about sleep being the precursor
Speaker 1: to being able to have that attentional control. Because we
Speaker 1: know that if we are sleep deprived, then our brains
Speaker 1: are using just the bare minimum of resources to just
Speaker 1: get through the day and it's certainly not going to
Speaker 1: take the time to notice what's going on around us.
Speaker 1: It's not going to want to slow down, and so
Speaker 1: it's about having that be part of the slow thought
Speaker 1: practice in order to be able to find the ability
Speaker 1: and the desire to have intentional control.
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, it's so true. I mean, it's so true
Speaker 2: that when you have not slept well, it makes much
Speaker 2: harder inhibit your ruminations that we all have.
Speaker 1: And I'm an insomniac, I know it. It's terrible. I
Speaker 1: can understand why it's a form of torture right to
Speaker 1: deprive people of sleep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely terrible. What about its situations in your life?
Speaker 2: You know, not just sleep, but what about situations in your
Speaker 2: life in general where you're in a very fast paced environment.
Speaker 2: How can you use wonder to maybe slow down your
Speaker 2: brain even in a very fast biased mindent. You know,
Speaker 2: let's say you're in a football field and you can't
Speaker 2: just tell everyone hold off if you're the quarterback, you know, like,
Speaker 2: I need to have some more time to get into
Speaker 2: my wonder state.
Speaker 1: I think that that's probably where you start thinking about
Speaker 1: a wonder mindset. So it's not about doing it in
Speaker 1: that moment but it's about becoming so in dept at
Speaker 1: utilizing the tools that help you get closer to wonder
Speaker 1: that then when you're in this moment that is very
Speaker 1: fraught with energy, that you can still tap into it
Speaker 1: a little bit, like you see these people who are
Speaker 1: master yogi's and who can dial it up at any time.
Speaker 1: It's about that, and I see it, I really do
Speaker 1: see it as a practice that the more that we
Speaker 1: see to find it, the more we recognize it, the
Speaker 1: more that we write about it, the more that we
Speaker 1: share it, wonder share it is wonder multiplied that then
Speaker 1: we become more adept at being able to draw it
Speaker 1: down in the times that we need it, even if
Speaker 1: it's in a chaotic environment.
Speaker 2: So it's really a resource available to us any time.
Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1: Absolutely, we just need to be willing to find it
Speaker 1: and then to hone the skills in identifying things that
Speaker 1: make us feel wonder and to be able to see
Speaker 1: it in just the quotidian in our day to day
Speaker 1: life and in terrible times, you know, to be able
Speaker 1: to see it when you're watching about the war in Ukraine,
Speaker 1: or to see it when we see these terrible earthquakes,
Speaker 1: that there's still wonder there, because I think that the
Speaker 1: negative news cycle definitely wants to kill our empathy, it
Speaker 1: wants to kill our awareness, It almost wants to stunt
Speaker 1: our recognition of humanity, and I think that wonder is
Speaker 1: a way to still stay connected to that.
Speaker 2: And deal with an emergency.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I did speak to a gentleman who
Speaker 1: deals with people who come back from crisis situations, so
Speaker 1: things like plane crashes or being castaway. He actually works
Speaker 1: with people who are kidnapped and held hostage and then
Speaker 1: released in order to help them reintegrate. And what he
Speaker 1: found is that people who are able to find wonder
Speaker 1: even in these terrible situations, that then because of that,
Speaker 1: it gives them a clarity that allows them to problem solve,
Speaker 1: to be more aware. And I spoke to gentleman Stephen
Speaker 1: Callahan who was adrift for something like eighty days and
Speaker 1: he wrote a very famous book about it, and he
Speaker 1: said that he was certain that the sense of wonder
Speaker 1: he felt from the beauty in the environment that he
Speaker 1: was in helped him have the alacrity to be able
Speaker 1: to survive in an environment where if he had been
Speaker 1: sort of terror struck all the time that he wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been able to see the answers that existed in
Speaker 1: his sphere.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, So I have you used the phrase wonder struck?
Speaker 3: Mmmm?
Speaker 2: Is that a phrase you've used?
Speaker 3: Yes? And he uses.
Speaker 2: It nice voice.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Speaker 2: So so if you're if you're flying an airplane and
Speaker 2: it's going down, you know, and you're about twenty seconds
Speaker 2: away from dying, and still you can still harness the
Speaker 2: power of wonder.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to give anybody any any
Speaker 1: bad advice. I think that's where probably the checklist manifesto
Speaker 1: comes in helpful. But I think if we're looking at
Speaker 1: something that's more long term, okay, that and some of this,
Speaker 1: there is some really interesting research around the people that
Speaker 1: are able to manage in the first few weeks of
Speaker 1: a crisis, and a lot of that has to do
Speaker 1: also with having a sense of purpose. And I see
Speaker 1: purpose and meaning being very connected to wonder, to these
Speaker 1: wonder elements, epistemic curiosity being about meaningful curiosity all tending
Speaker 1: to have some sort of purpose to it. So I
Speaker 1: think that there is there's something there about being able
Speaker 1: to find a purpose quickly, and that that also helps
Speaker 1: booy us.
Speaker 2: What did Steve Jobs say in his deathbed? Do you remember?
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 2: It was oh wow, wow, wow, there you go. And
Speaker 2: people think maybe he was seeing something. Probably absolutely, but
Speaker 2: he was, you know, he was always kind of, I think,
Speaker 2: open to experience.
Speaker 1: He was someone who was My recollection was that he
Speaker 1: was a master meditator. He was someone that was very connected.
Speaker 1: And I love William James's description of the Filmiest of
Speaker 1: Screens and that's really I think what Wonder helps us
Speaker 1: do is that it allows us to, at different times
Speaker 1: to sort of peel back that veil and see what
Speaker 1: is on the other side. And I enjoyed talking to
Speaker 1: scientists and asking them, well, what do you think is
Speaker 1: on the other side, and most of them said, that's
Speaker 1: just not something.
Speaker 3: That science can answer.
Speaker 1: And so part of why I enjoyed this, and I
Speaker 1: was actually told by some of the scientists, you're released
Speaker 1: from being able to be able to have the conversation
Speaker 1: about the soul of this topic as opposed to just
Speaker 1: the science. And I think that that's where you move
Speaker 1: from science to soul is when you part that filmyus
Speaker 1: of screens and probably what Jobs was experiencing sort of
Speaker 1: that transition and seeing what's on the other side.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people transfer from soul to
Speaker 2: science when they enter grad school. Just talk about how
Speaker 2: soul is grad school is okay? Anyway, What are wonder
Speaker 2: bringers and how do we find them?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so wonderbringers are, I mean, a great way to
Speaker 1: know if you're in the presence of a wonderbringers. If
Speaker 1: it gives you goosebumps, that can certainly be an indication
Speaker 1: of I know I did, I mean, I'd write about it.
Speaker 2: Sex.
Speaker 1: Sex can be all there are types of sex that
Speaker 1: can be wonderbringing. Tends to be in a committed relationship,
Speaker 1: tends to be very deep, but you can have that
Speaker 1: can be one of the wonderbringers. But why I want
Speaker 1: people I see that exploring what your wonder bringers are
Speaker 1: as something that is a real self exploration and a
Speaker 1: way to start to understand what it is that gets
Speaker 1: you excited, what makes you feel alive. And I wish
Speaker 1: that it could almost become a language that we use,
Speaker 1: sort of like a love language in a sense, to
Speaker 1: say to people that that's my wonder bringer. If music
Speaker 1: is your wonder bringer, it's not just about a hobby.
Speaker 1: If hiking is your wonder bringer. It's fundamental to who
Speaker 1: you are as a human and you have to have
Speaker 1: it in order to have an enriched life. And so
Speaker 1: the more that we can start to understand, do they
Speaker 1: occur in nature?
Speaker 3: Are they cognitive?
Speaker 1: Like I'm a nerd, I love almost all of my
Speaker 1: wonderbringers are very cognitive in nature or in you know
Speaker 1: the type that they are, and is it or is
Speaker 1: it interpersonal? Is it with other people? And starting to
Speaker 1: have that conversation with yourself about what gives you that
Speaker 1: sense of wonder I think could be really powerful for
Speaker 1: our own understanding of ourselves.
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Speaker 2: welcoming you in December. How can we teach us in schools?
Speaker 1: I think that I'm actually working with some educators to
Speaker 1: create a teacher's guide that is that's associated with the book,
Speaker 1: and hopefully that will come out towards the end of
Speaker 1: the year. Wonder is such an amazing mechanism for teaching
Speaker 1: and learning. We know we talked about the hippocampus that
Speaker 1: if something gives you, if it really surprises you, if
Speaker 1: it gives you a sense of that deep curiosity or
Speaker 1: even the wow, then it will embed in your long
Speaker 1: term memory. But I also believe that teachers who teach
Speaker 1: from a place of wonder are able to impart that
Speaker 1: enthusiasm and that genuine curiosity to the children that they're teaching.
Speaker 3: And my concern is.
Speaker 1: That we are teaching children in schools to the single
Speaker 1: right answer. So everything is very codified and there and
Speaker 1: I understand teaching is complicated, that this is how I
Speaker 1: guess the systems are set up. But you look at
Speaker 1: the benefits of say a Montessori and then you get
Speaker 1: kids into middle school, high school, and it's so regimented.
Speaker 3: And I believe that teaching kids that.
Speaker 1: There's a single right answer in school, they grow up
Speaker 1: to be adults that believe there's a single right answer.
Speaker 1: And so I think that having schools that are not
Speaker 1: wonder based enough, we're developing children who are higher in
Speaker 1: that need for cognitive closure and not as high in
Speaker 1: this need for cognition. They don't enjoy the exploration because
Speaker 1: they're not given the chance to, and so they grow
Speaker 1: up to adults that think that everything has a single
Speaker 1: right answer, and when they find it, that gives them comfort.
Speaker 1: And I believe that actually taking wonder out of our
Speaker 1: schools is creating a more intolerant populace.
Speaker 3: But that's just a theory.
Speaker 2: Taking it out of the schools. It was never in
Speaker 2: the schools.
Speaker 3: Some schools, I think some schools have it. I think
Speaker 3: you look at Montessori. When you're little, you know you're.
Speaker 1: Allowed to play, but then it's removed as we get older.
Speaker 1: And I was lucky I had some teachers who are
Speaker 1: very wonder based, and I still remember the lessons that
Speaker 1: had But it ends up being very very individual to
Speaker 1: the teacher that you have. And I would love to
Speaker 1: see more teaching and learning using wonder as a mechanism
Speaker 1: for for long term learning and for life long learning.
Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be wonderful? M M Yeah, I don't. I
Speaker 2: don't think I ever felt a sense of wonder taking
Speaker 2: the SATs.
Speaker 1: No, standardization is not gonna is not gonna help us,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's it's unfortunate that that's that's what
Speaker 1: has been created with education, and then you get into
Speaker 1: master's degrees and PhDs. I spoke to one gentleman that
Speaker 1: said that MBAs in particular, that we're creating basically psychopaths.
Speaker 1: So my hope is that it becomes just that we're
Speaker 1: allowed more freewheeling exploration, more play, and that we don't
Speaker 1: see that as contrary.
Speaker 2: To learning, or is it is the causality there that
Speaker 2: psychopaths are attracted getting an NBA could be.
Speaker 1: But of course there's a lot of but there's a
Speaker 1: lot of competition. I think that's the other challenge as well,
Speaker 1: is that children are learning a sense of competition as
Speaker 1: opposed to collaboration. So young, you know, they're being told
Speaker 1: you you sit in this, you know, this pecking order
Speaker 1: in your intelligence or your performance. And I think when
Speaker 1: we start to do that, then they become I guess,
Speaker 1: effectuated to this idea that this is how we have
Speaker 1: to behave we become we have to rank ourselves with
Speaker 1: other people. And that's just on steroids in an MBA program.
Speaker 1: Not I'm not dissing MBAs, but you do see that
Speaker 1: there's a lot of competition, which I don't think is
Speaker 1: necessarily healthy.
Speaker 2: I got, yeah, I'm not dissing psychopaths either. No, no
Speaker 2: offense to MPAs or psychopaths. We're just stating some packs. No, okay,
Speaker 2: so o d dreaming in schools. I've argued for many years,
Speaker 2: that we need more, we need dadreaming time in schools.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that what was that article was something like
Speaker 1: a wandering mind as an unhappy mind. That just did
Speaker 1: that set any kind of daydreaming science back so much.
Speaker 2: I wasn't a fan of that.
Speaker 3: No, it was terrible.
Speaker 1: And they said, see, we knew daydreaming was bad for you.
Speaker 1: Absolutely don't believe that it's good. And you and I
Speaker 1: have had this conversation. It's good for our brain to
Speaker 1: construct future scenarios, for us to play out different activities
Speaker 1: in our mind. And I think that absolutely children need
Speaker 1: that day dreaming time. Even better at that day dreaming
Speaker 1: time is you know, in nature or an environment that
Speaker 1: is that's very free cognitively. But again it's recognizing the
Speaker 1: different types of day dreaming. We don't want that rumination,
Speaker 1: We don't want it to be so distracting that we're
Speaker 1: not able to get things done. But that positive constructive daydreaming,
Speaker 1: I don't see how that can't be good for especially
Speaker 1: a developing brain.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's not They weren't referring to positive constructive dreaming.
Speaker 2: They were speaking about mind wandering, which specifically is scientifically
Speaker 2: defined is getting off track, you know, and you have
Speaker 2: a when you have a goal, you know, how many
Speaker 2: times does your mind wander wander away from the goal?
Speaker 2: But it's also a very goal directed way of thinking.
Speaker 1: And yes, and is maybe there's a reason it's wandering
Speaker 1: because there's something that perhaps your brain.
Speaker 3: Would find more more intriguing.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, wonder there you go. I have ever
Speaker 2: thought about that? You ever thought about the word wonderful?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 1: And wonder filled, which apparently is also the strap line
Speaker 1: for oreos.
Speaker 3: So I couldn't use so much.
Speaker 2: I know interesting. I've been eating Goloden free oreos lately
Speaker 2: and they're pretty good. Pretty good. You know, I get
Speaker 2: no money for saying that. You know, what are some
Speaker 2: of the things you want readers to take away from
Speaker 2: your wonder Field the book?
Speaker 3: I think the.
Speaker 1: Key element for me is that it's this idea that
Speaker 1: there's more that what we see in our day to
Speaker 1: day life. What we're rushing through is it's just really
Speaker 1: a fraction of what there is to experience, either in
Speaker 1: this reality or another one. And the way that I
Speaker 1: describe it, it's sort of like a tapping herd through
Speaker 1: the wall. I think we all know that there is
Speaker 1: something else there, but there are all these reasons why
Speaker 1: we block ourselves from trying to explore it. And I
Speaker 1: think that wonder is the potentially the key to that door.
Speaker 1: And certainly when you get into psychedelics, that can be yes,
Speaker 1: kicking the door down, We'll say. But that's the key
Speaker 1: thing that I'd like people to take away is that
Speaker 1: there's more. And I do believe that if we meet
Speaker 1: each other with openness, with curiosity, with presence, that we
Speaker 1: will be.
Speaker 3: A more tolerant world.
Speaker 1: And that is something that I don't think.
Speaker 3: I'm a Pollyanna.
Speaker 1: That's just something i'd like to see all.
Speaker 2: I love that you really think that if we culture,
Speaker 2: each of us went through the practices in your book individually,
Speaker 2: that collectively would be a better society.
Speaker 3: I do believe that.
Speaker 1: Now I'm not I'm not thinking that. Yes, then if
Speaker 1: somebody is a horrible human being, that they're fractured, that
Speaker 1: they're terrorists, that somehow doing a wonder practice will fix them.
Speaker 1: I don't believe that, but I think that the average
Speaker 1: person can really benefit from that, and it will create
Speaker 1: more pro social behaviors that connect us to one another
Speaker 1: rather than behaviors that push other people away, and in
Speaker 1: that is tolerance.
Speaker 2: Gotcha, tolerance, you know, tolerance and even to maybe even
Speaker 2: just love love as well. Everyone is like stops at tolerance.
Speaker 2: That's good enough, that's all you.
Speaker 3: Could we just have that. I'd be happy with that.
Speaker 2: You'd be happy with just that right now? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I hear you, I hear you. So to help people,
Speaker 2: you know, they're feeling inspired, they're listening to you in
Speaker 2: this episode, and they want to do something to teach
Speaker 2: them how to take a daily wonder walk.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so a wonderwalk great if you can do it outside.
Speaker 1: Our brain notices newness, so we love novelty. If it
Speaker 1: can be a different newness things that they said.
Speaker 3: That would be.
Speaker 2: Very nice, very focused. That's not what you said. Okay,
Speaker 2: it's not, but you.
Speaker 3: Could take it. You could take a.
Speaker 1: Walk towards nudice. But we notice newness, so something that
Speaker 1: has some element of novelty in it, an element that
Speaker 1: allows us to either see something that's big, like the
Speaker 1: sea or a mountain. But if you can't go big,
Speaker 1: then go small to notice the little details that you
Speaker 1: might have missed otherwise. And I find that at the
Speaker 1: end of a wonder walk, if you just do a
Speaker 1: little bit of journaling. I know if people aren't wild
Speaker 1: about journaling, but it really does help your brain hold
Speaker 1: on to the experience. If you just do a little
Speaker 1: bit of writing and leave the phone, You've got to
Speaker 1: leave the phone because that's just going to take you
Speaker 1: away from the experience of your wonder walk and just yeah,
Speaker 1: you'll lose the opportunity. I love the research that I
Speaker 1: think it was Keldner, but it was certainly about awe
Speaker 1: that they set people on walks and one on a
Speaker 1: regular walk and one on an all walk, And the
Speaker 1: people that came back from the all walk even just
Speaker 1: had bigger smiles in their selfies. So I think that
Speaker 1: that says it all. So just a news route, something
Speaker 1: where you're not distracted, and if you can't go big,
Speaker 1: go small.
Speaker 2: This episode gave me a big smile. Oh thanks Scott,
Speaker 2: Yeah too, I feel more good glad to hear that.
Speaker 2: So you think we all all can do things, even
Speaker 2: just maybe simple things in our day to become more
Speaker 2: wonder prone. Yeah. Do you think that doing this will
Speaker 2: give us a greater sense of magic for the world?
Speaker 3: Oh goodness, I certainly hope so. And I don't see
Speaker 3: how it can't.
Speaker 1: Because you're going to start to see things in a
Speaker 1: way that you hadn't before. You will recognize that actually
Speaker 1: you believe that you have everything so figured out, but
Speaker 1: in fact you don't, And there is so much magic
Speaker 1: that we just move through.
Speaker 3: I mean even for me.
Speaker 1: Flying, I fly so much for work, but every time
Speaker 1: that plane takes off, I am just blown away. It's
Speaker 1: the most miraculous, magical thing. I am in the air
Speaker 1: in a metal tube. It's incredible. But we just stop
Speaker 1: seeing the magic that's around us. And I guess that's
Speaker 1: one of the things that I hope people will start
Speaker 1: to do, is to see the magic, to marinate in
Speaker 1: the magic, and to allow yourself to be changed by
Speaker 1: the magic.
Speaker 2: Yes, changed, you know, from a state of fear and
Speaker 2: anxiety to wonder, you know, if maybe have a fear
Speaker 2: of mine, maybe shifting that a little more to.
Speaker 3: The curiosity of curiosity magic. Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, thanks for a magical podcast chat and congratulations
Speaker 2: again on the publication of your book. It's no easy
Speaker 2: feats writing a book, but then write a book and wonder,
Speaker 2: you know, and trying to have the magic jump out
Speaker 2: of the pages is no easy feed either. But you
Speaker 2: succeeded and yeah, congratulations, thanks for thanks for finally being
Speaker 2: on my show.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Scott. It was awesome, wonderful, excellent.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 2: If you'd like to react in some way to something
Speaker 2: you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion
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