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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm great? How about you? Is it getting colder there?

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Speaker 1: It's the October.

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Speaker 2: Ish, it's starting to turn. You know. Colorado is always

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Speaker 2: up and down when it comes to the weather, but

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Speaker 2: usually right around Halloween is when we can expect our

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Speaker 2: first snow.

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Speaker 1: So is the big weather. It has to be blizzards, right,

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Speaker 1: those are the big weather events. I mean, are there anything?

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Speaker 1: Is there anything that's so unusual? You go, it's never

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Speaker 1: going to happen here, And it happens because we get

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Speaker 1: that a lot in Texas.

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Speaker 2: Frankly, sure, well, I would say when we first moved

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Speaker 2: here in twenty and eighteen, that's when we had this

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Speaker 2: massive hailstorm which totalled my wife's minivan. We literally had

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Speaker 2: the insurance company totally and buy her a new car.

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Speaker 2: We had hail the size of oranges that were coming down,

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Speaker 2: so it I mean, crazy roofs were, you know, crushed it.

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Speaker 2: All the tile roofs in the neighborhood looked like they

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Speaker 2: were in a war zone. And we're like, is this

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Speaker 2: what we're going to be experiencing all the time? And

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Speaker 2: it turns out with no mean we get hail here routinely.

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Speaker 2: You see a lot of cars that have a lot

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Speaker 2: of dents and a lot of repair shops, but not

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Speaker 2: hail the size of oranges. That was unusual.

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Speaker 1: When I was a kid, and I think we've probably

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Speaker 1: talked about this, we had tornado drills all the time.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have active shooter like they do today. We

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Speaker 1: had pretty much tornado drills and that was it. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I always thought we're gonna get hit by

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Speaker 1: a tornado, And where I am in Austin, we've had

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Speaker 1: small ones, but we've never had what you would think

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Speaker 1: about like in a twister or Kansas. Not as long

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Speaker 1: as I've been around here.

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Speaker 2: In Colorado. I had to go pick up my oldest son,

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Speaker 2: he flew in this like three years ago. I had

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Speaker 2: to go up to the Denver Airport and we just

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Speaker 2: happened to have massive windstorms with over one hundred mile

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Speaker 2: an hour gusts and driving on the freeway, you see

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Speaker 2: all these big rigs literally overturned. The wind is, you know,

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Speaker 2: tipping them over, and it was, you know, I'm in

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Speaker 2: a higher vehicle. I'm in a jeep, you know, which

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Speaker 2: has a high center of gravity, and it gets a

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Speaker 2: little bit gary, like am I going to end up

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Speaker 2: on my side?

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Speaker 1: What about California?

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Speaker 2: Well, I lived there and I lived there since what

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Speaker 2: about nineteen eighty one up until I retired. The California

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Speaker 2: weather is it's kind of wimpy, you know. It just drizzles,

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Speaker 2: it really is. I don't know. I get bored with

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Speaker 2: California weather.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Move to La. You see what happens

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Speaker 1: to them in l Alexis is going to give you

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Speaker 1: an earpolone a little bit. But I definitely understand what

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Speaker 1: you're saying North, especially in northern California, Central California. Definitely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where you know here in Colorado. I just

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Speaker 2: I enjoy the the you know, the storms, they're fun.

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Speaker 1: Well, I meant this to be a transition to our

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Speaker 1: story today, which is set in California. And we've done

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Speaker 1: some California stories. I think you'll think this is an

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Speaker 1: interesting one. So this is nineteen seventy one, and you

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Speaker 1: weren't You weren't even born yet, right, Paul, You weren't

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Speaker 1: born in I was.

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Speaker 2: Three years old? Are you kidding me? You were the

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Speaker 2: one that wasn't born.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to be complementerible. So nineteen seventy one, and

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Speaker 1: this is in Yuba City, so forty miles north of Sacramento.

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Speaker 1: Have you been to Uba?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: I have never been to Ubis. Have you really? For

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Speaker 1: crime stuff?

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Speaker 2: Or for what my ex wife had some family that

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Speaker 2: lived up in Uba, and believe it or not, for

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Speaker 2: a case that I've just stopped working this past year.

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Speaker 2: I went up and met with the Yuba County sheriff.

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Speaker 2: I was recently there.

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Speaker 1: Describe it now and then we'll get into the story.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's, you know, like you said, forty miles north

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Speaker 2: of Sacramento. It's in you know, kind of Central Valley California,

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Speaker 2: so massive heat. That's that's one of the things that

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Speaker 2: really stands out about anything within the Central Valley is

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Speaker 2: the summertime is just miserable. It's probably you know, I

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Speaker 2: don't know how about Austin, but you know, it's not

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Speaker 2: unusual for Yuba to be up in the one hundred

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Speaker 2: and ten, one hundred.

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Speaker 1: And fifteen, Okay, so that it's normal for you.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, that's it's very hot. Of course, the geologic

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Speaker 2: feature there is the Buttes, these just two plateaued call

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Speaker 2: of mountains, you know that you can see from forever,

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Speaker 2: you know, so that's kind of cool. And then UBA's

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Speaker 2: got a very small town feel. It's not very populated,

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Speaker 2: and there's a lot of little towns directly surrounding Yuba,

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Speaker 2: like Marysville, Linden, and you know, just I would say,

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Speaker 2: I guess I would say it's mostly agricultural.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's go ahead and set the scene. So

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Speaker 1: we talked about Yuba City. I spent some time I've

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Speaker 1: mentioned this before in Modesto, California, on the Gary condit

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Speaker 1: the Chandra Levy case, which was Almond Country, and I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming still is. So this is orchard country, and I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming it's still the case. In Yuba City there were

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Speaker 1: in the spring of seventy one, so this is almost

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Speaker 1: fifty five years ago, eighteen thousand acres of orchards, mostly peaches,

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Speaker 1: but also prunes and plums and pears. So that is

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Speaker 1: a vast amount of land. And of course, you know

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Speaker 1: with orchards come the workers, you know, who come in.

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Speaker 1: And so we're talking about stories. I think here of

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Speaker 1: victims who are forgotten and we talk about this all

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Speaker 1: the time with killers. How you know, they find the

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Speaker 1: people who, in their minds nobody loves or nobody will miss,

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Speaker 1: and so they prey on those people. And I know

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Speaker 1: that that's something that you've certainly dealt with before. Is

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Speaker 1: there another case, and I mean, I know we know

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Speaker 1: about sex workers and how they're preyed upon, but is

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Speaker 1: there another case that you could think of where you

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Speaker 1: just know somebody is, you know, attacking these people because

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Speaker 1: they think nobody's going to look for them.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is where anytime you have a transient population,

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Speaker 2: you know you're talking about you, but you know, this

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Speaker 2: is an agricultural area. This is very much like the

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Speaker 2: east end of my county, and this is where you

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Speaker 2: get a lot lot of the Hispanics coming up from Mexico.

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Speaker 2: They're separated from their family and they can be victimized.

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Speaker 2: You see this also with people that ride the trains,

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Speaker 2: another transient population. And there's several serial killers that took

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Speaker 2: advantage of these transients on trains, victimized them, killed them.

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Speaker 2: And you know, the family has no idea that anything

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Speaker 2: bad has happened to their loved one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, runaway kids, of course would be another one. And sure,

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Speaker 1: so we're looking at that a little bit here. You know,

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Speaker 1: one thing to mention that this is incredible. This area

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Speaker 1: of Ubi City, with all of these orchards, eighteen thousand

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Speaker 1: acres worth of orchards, produced forty percent of the world's

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Speaker 1: canned fruit. So huge into forty percent huge industry, I

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Speaker 1: mean amazing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I didn't realize that Vacaville actually had

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Speaker 2: a big dry fruit industry there, and it was one company,

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Speaker 2: but it was you know, a significant employer and back

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Speaker 2: of it. And I just think this is where you

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Speaker 2: get to the you know, the weather, you know how dry,

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Speaker 2: how hot it is, it's probably easy for them to

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Speaker 2: be able to produce this fruit.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is spring of seventy one, so let's go

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Speaker 1: ahead and get into the story. You know, again, sometimes

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Speaker 1: we start with the killers, sometimes we start with the

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Speaker 1: main victim. So we're going to start with the mystery

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Speaker 1: part of it. So this is May nineteenth, nineteen seventy one,

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Speaker 1: and there's a farmer named go Ro Kayiho who owns

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Speaker 1: the orchard. He is walking around and he notices that

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Speaker 1: there is a very large, but shallow hole in between

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Speaker 1: some rows of peach trees. You know, he thinks maybe

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Speaker 1: one of his workers did it. He's not sure, but

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Speaker 1: he's not alarmed. So large, shallow. When he comes back

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Speaker 1: later in the day, and I don't know how long,

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Speaker 1: but long enough for this to happen, it's mysteriously filled in.

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Speaker 1: And because this is our show, we know what it

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Speaker 1: is covering up. Okay, So you know, he calls the police.

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Speaker 1: He thinks somebody's burying trash in his orchard. But when

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Speaker 1: investigators show up, they dig into the soil between the

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Speaker 1: sixth and the seventh rows of these peach trees in

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Speaker 1: this orchard, and they find a rubber boot and a

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Speaker 1: human foot. So this is a grave that measures six

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Speaker 1: feet long and is only three and a half feet deep.

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Speaker 1: We have not gotten into the I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's the physics or the geometry of digging a grave,

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Speaker 1: But six feet long, I mean I would presume that

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Speaker 1: would mean the body could lay long ways, you know,

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Speaker 1: or be legs straight out. But three and a half

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Speaker 1: feet deep seems really shallow.

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Speaker 2: What do you think now that's actually impressively deep for

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Speaker 2: a typical grave. Okay, I will tell you, you know, both

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Speaker 2: just having experience doing a lot of lef scaping in

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Speaker 2: my backyard. You know, generally you get down through how

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Speaker 2: maybe twelve to eighteen inches of top soil, and you're

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Speaker 2: hitting you know, really hard pan dirt. And you know,

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Speaker 2: with the cases that I have worked where bodies have

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Speaker 2: attempted to be buried, many of them they don't get

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Speaker 2: past eighteen inches, and these shallow graves often have body

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Speaker 2: parts sticking up out of gosh, you know, so three

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Speaker 2: and a half feet this is a I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: a lot of work, you know. I don't know in

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Speaker 2: this crop type area, how you know how much they

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Speaker 2: till up the dirt in between the trees. Maybe it's

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Speaker 2: looser soil than than in other areas. Yeah, so I'm

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Speaker 2: kind of impressed. But it was just a boot and

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Speaker 2: a foot. There wasn't the rest of the body.

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Speaker 1: So they see that sticking up first, okay, and then

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Speaker 1: they find the body of their first victim, and there

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Speaker 1: are multiple victims here. He is aged white man. He

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Speaker 1: is wearing a calf length gray overcoat. At first, when

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Speaker 1: I sell calf, I thought like a baby, like a

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Speaker 1: baby cap, and I thought that's unusual, and then I

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Speaker 1: thought some more so the sheriff, who is a guy

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Speaker 1: named he's a deputy sheriff. His name is Steve size Love.

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Speaker 1: He says that, you know, he thought this guy would

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Speaker 1: be hot because the temperature in Sutter County was peeking

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Speaker 1: at a little over seventy five degrees, which is winter

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Speaker 1: for me, and I would wear a coat in that time,

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Speaker 1: but I understand how he wouldn't. So that's what he's wearing.

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Speaker 1: So he's you know, he's clothed, and then he's buried

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Speaker 1: in this grave and they start looking for clues after that.

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Speaker 1: So if you are the investigator, if your size Love

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Speaker 1: on the scene, then you find this body in this orchard.

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Speaker 1: It's relatively secluded. You know, what is kind of the

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Speaker 1: first thing that you're doing, is it to id or

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Speaker 1: or what you.

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Speaker 2: Know, there's a whole process in terms of doing you know,

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Speaker 2: a dig, and you need to do that that process

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Speaker 2: step by step in order to maximize recovery of the evidence.

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Speaker 2: You know, fundamentally, you're documenting. You know, then you're starting

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Speaker 2: to unearth the body, but the dirt that you're pulling

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Speaker 2: out of the grave itself could potentially have smaller items

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Speaker 2: of evidence, and so you need to have somebody that

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Speaker 2: is sifting that dirt as well as just paying attention to, well,

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Speaker 2: how was this grave dug? Do you have shovel marks

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Speaker 2: on the side? Is there anything unique that you can document,

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Speaker 2: you know, some striated aspects that could possibly be tied

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Speaker 2: back to the tool used to dig the grave. And

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Speaker 2: then of course there's a body and you process this

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Speaker 2: body as you would if the body were in you know,

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Speaker 2: dead inside a house in terms of trace evidence and

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Speaker 2: you know, documenting injuries and blood flows and insect activity.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's so much aspect that you have to

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Speaker 2: take into consideration. But identifying the body as quick as

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Speaker 2: possible is idea because you can't really start an investigation

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Speaker 2: until you know who your victim is. But the other

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Speaker 2: aspect of this is you have the owner of the

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Speaker 2: property who saw this pre dug grave, yeah, and then

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Speaker 2: later on saw it filled in with a body in it. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So now you have a narrow time window in which

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Speaker 2: somebody came into this location, was able to you know,

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Speaker 2: has access to the location to dig a grave, and

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Speaker 2: then had again gained access in order to be able

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Speaker 2: to put the body in there. So, now do you

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Speaker 2: have any witnesses? Do you have any farm hands, anybody

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Speaker 2: that's working in the in the orchard area that could

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Speaker 2: be witnesses? Seeing how I saw so and so coming

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Speaker 2: in and you know they had a tractor with them

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Speaker 2: dragging something behind it or whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: Go to Paul, Go to page page fourteen. Paul, this

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Speaker 1: is a scene and you know you can see in

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Speaker 1: the caption what they're saying, and this might give you

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Speaker 1: a good example of a good explanation for how soft

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Speaker 1: the dirt is. Tell me what you see they end

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Speaker 1: up having to do this several more times. How are

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Speaker 1: they trying to locate these bodies according to this photo

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Speaker 1: or this body or any more bodies?

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at the photograph which is taken looks down

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Speaker 2: a dirt road that is lined on both sides with

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming our fruit trees. I can see what appears

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Speaker 2: to be a car, possibly a law enforcement vehicle from

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Speaker 2: that era, down in the backdrop, and then along sort

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Speaker 2: of the road itself, where you know, a typical thing

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Speaker 2: where you see two tire tracks, you know, and then

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Speaker 2: you have some vegetation in the middle, and then there's

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Speaker 2: two men in essence dressed in white T shirts, you know,

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Speaker 2: jeans are similar, and shoes and each one of them

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Speaker 2: is holding I'm gonna just describe it as a rod

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Speaker 2: like object. Well, I know exactly what that is. That

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Speaker 2: is a probe. And so one of the ways that

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Speaker 2: we would use to find a body is you'd have

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Speaker 2: a metal rod that's pointed at the thing so you

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Speaker 2: can actually push it down into the ground. And oftentimes

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Speaker 2: you would have it'd be like t shaped up up

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Speaker 2: at top where you could grab it and put your

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Speaker 2: weight behind it to press this down into the ground. Well,

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Speaker 2: if there is a grave in the area, you get

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Speaker 2: a feel for how hard the ground is the deeper

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Speaker 2: you go. But if you find an area where it

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Speaker 2: seems hard, and all of a sudden, the probe just

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Speaker 2: goes poomp. You found an area in which the dirt

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Speaker 2: the ground underneath is less dense, and this could indicate

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Speaker 2: a grave location, or you know, you could potentially have

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Speaker 2: just gone into a body, you know, but that's what

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Speaker 2: these probe devices are used, or how they are used.

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Speaker 1: Let me give you another example. A lot of the

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Speaker 1: photos that we have are wonderful, but they're kind of described.

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Speaker 1: I think they're conflating a lot of these orchards together, okay,

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Speaker 1: what I'm used to with, and people might correct me

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Speaker 1: here with modesto or these sort of beautiful, really kind

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Speaker 1: of clean looking smallish almond trees, and they're perfectly lined,

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Speaker 1: and I could never see somebody bearying a body there

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Speaker 1: or keeping a body anyway. You know, it's not they're

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Speaker 1: not secluded. So why don't you take a look at

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Speaker 1: page thirteen, And I think that this is kind of

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Speaker 1: an example not only of a grave but also the

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Speaker 1: seclusion of it. I guess these are not as clean,

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Speaker 1: you know, it looks pretty secluded. And this is a

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Speaker 1: peach orchard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm actually very familiar you know, with

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Speaker 2: like the almond orchards. You drive down, you know, from

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Speaker 2: northern California, southern California, and you see all these almond orchards.

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Speaker 2: You know, familiar with modesto. I know exactly what you're

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Speaker 2: talking about. In this photo. It is a photo which

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Speaker 2: is showing a group of individuals. I'm not entirely sure

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Speaker 2: they don't all look law enforcement. But there is a

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Speaker 2: grave in the dirt. You see pile, you know, dirt

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Speaker 2: that has been piled up on one side of this

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Speaker 2: I at this point I can't tell you if they

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Speaker 2: dug this grave as part of searching for victims, or

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Speaker 2: this was another one of these pre dug graves that

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Speaker 2: the offender had dug and now they're looking at that.

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Speaker 2: But to your point, the backdrop, you see the vegetation

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Speaker 2: behind the individuals in this photograph, and it appears that

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Speaker 2: this location is visibility of this location is probably quite restricted,

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Speaker 2: you know. And so now that could potentially explain how

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Speaker 2: an offender could get into maybe an operating peach orchard

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Speaker 2: and be able to dig a grave and then come

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Speaker 2: back with a body and fill that, you know, basically

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Speaker 2: bury the body.

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Speaker 1: Let's look at one more photo, because we talked about

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Speaker 1: evidence that would be important, maybe buried with the body.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if this photo is connected directly

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Speaker 1: with who will turn out to be, you know, our

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Speaker 1: first victim. But I thought you would be interested in

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Speaker 1: looking how at looking at I guess at how they're

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Speaker 1: collecting evidence. So look Paul on page eleven. It technically

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Speaker 1: is a different spot, but I'm a look at the

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Speaker 1: method is what I'm getting at.

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Speaker 2: Right, So what I'm looking at is a photograph of

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Speaker 2: three men. One appears to be just standing off to

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Speaker 2: the side. He's the supervisor. And then you see you.

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Speaker 1: See saff.

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Speaker 2: You see the the two men that drew the short

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Speaker 2: straw with screens and this is where the dirt is

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Speaker 2: being sifted for evidence. So as dirt is being brought

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Speaker 2: up out of the grave, that dirt needs to go

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Speaker 2: through this sifting process. And oftentimes you're using different size

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Speaker 2: screens from large to smaller ones, which allow you to

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Speaker 2: be able to find larger items, and then of course

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Speaker 2: you may have to find smaller items. And this sifting

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Speaker 2: process is great for just general physical evidence. Let's say

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Speaker 2: you know the killer threw a cigarette butt into the gravesite,

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Speaker 2: and this is how you can find a cigarette, But

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Speaker 2: right now I don't know what the condition of these

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Speaker 2: bodies are. So sometimes if you have skeletal remains, the

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Speaker 2: sifting process is necessary to find the small bones, the

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Speaker 2: victim's teeth, depending if there's dismemberment or there's been, you know,

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Speaker 2: some sort of trauma to the body. So it's truly

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Speaker 2: an archaeological dig. It takes a lot of effort and

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Speaker 2: a lot of time to competently and adequately dig up

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Speaker 2: a body and process that crime scene for evidence.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about the space in between? I

355
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Speaker 1: was looking at the mash the screen that they were using,

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Speaker 1: and I was saying, that seems kind of big, but

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Speaker 1: maybe it will catch what they needed to catch if

358
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Speaker 1: there's anything in there.

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Speaker 2: So you're asking about the size of the screen size itself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like of the holes in between, like, wouldn't teeth

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Speaker 1: fall through those? I'm sort of thing, what are they

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Speaker 1: really looking for?

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Speaker 2: At least with what I can see in this photograph,

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Speaker 2: it looks like they are dealing with a screen that

365
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Speaker 2: has about I would say a quarter inch opening, And

366
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Speaker 2: so this would be good for recovering just general physical evidence,

367
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Speaker 2: recovering bone fragments, and it does allow the passage of

368
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Speaker 2: the smaller particles of dirt and stuff. So now you

369
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Speaker 2: can start to visualize. You know, not only do you

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Speaker 2: have rocks or clumps of dirt that don't pass through,

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Speaker 2: but this is where you can see the evidence that

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Speaker 2: gets caught up with this size screen. Now, if you

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Speaker 2: are finding things which appears, let's say this was a

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Speaker 2: situation where a body's been burned basically almost cremated, and

375
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Speaker 2: now the body's been crushed up, and you really really

376
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Speaker 2: want those teeth in addition to recovering whatever bone fragments

377
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Speaker 2: are there. Then you need to follow up which you

378
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Speaker 2: screen with at this size screen with a smaller size screen.

379
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Speaker 2: But you can only go so small because at a

380
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Speaker 2: certain point the dirt doesn't pass through, it just clumps

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Speaker 2: into the screen. And then I ran into a situation

382
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Speaker 2: where we're finding skeletal remains out in the two leys

383
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Speaker 2: out off of the Sacramento River delta, and so we

384
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Speaker 2: had mud that we had to screen, and so now

385
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Speaker 2: we had to have running water. So when we put

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Speaker 2: the mud into the screen, and now you have water,

387
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 2: you know, to get the small particle to clay and

388
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 2: crap through the screen so you can see do I

389
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Speaker 2: have any bone in this massive mud.

390
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well this seems like a nightmare scene to me.

391
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Speaker 1: They find a tire track, a wide truck tire track,

392
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Speaker 1: and they make a plaster cast. Is that something that

393
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Speaker 1: we do today? Is it useful in any way? Well?

394
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, there's of course when you're dealing with

395
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 2: impression evidence out at a crime scene. It could be shoes,

396
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 2: it could be tires. There's there's steps that you take

397
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 2: in terms of documenting it, and photography with oblique lighting

398
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 2: from multiple angles is really really good. But then we

399
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 2: would use a dental stone, which is really this fine

400
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 2: particulate powder that you mix with water and then you

401
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,719
Speaker 2: pour into the impression like the tire impression, allow that

402
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 2: to harden, and so in essence you are walking away

403
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 2: with an exact replication of that impression evidence. And so

404
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 2: this is what your tire. We had a guy that

405
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 2: was an expert in shoes and tires, and so he

406
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 2: has the photographs with the lighting from different angles, and

407
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: he actually has the tire impression in the dental stone

408
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 2: to be able to compare to any suspect vehicle tires

409
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Speaker 2: that are submitted.

410
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Speaker 1: Hmm. Well, I mean I was thinking this is an orchard.

411
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Speaker 1: Doesn't everybody have a truck around here, But well, we'll see.

412
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Speaker 1: This is helpful.

413
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Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's important though. You know, you need to

414
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Speaker 2: know what is you know, commonly operating in this area

415
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Speaker 2: and then what potentially kind of doesn't look like it belongs.

416
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Speaker 2: If something like that is there and it's right by

417
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Speaker 2: the grave, then you'd probably focus in on that evidence. Yep.

418
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Speaker 1: Okay. So the deputy sheriff is helpful in many ways,

419
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Speaker 1: including he is able to identify our victim. His name

420
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Speaker 1: is Kenneth Kenney white Acre. The deputy sheriff knows him

421
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Speaker 1: because he's a wanderer. He calls him a wanderer transient.

422
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: Kenny was just somebody who was passing through town. I

423
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Speaker 1: don't think he broke the law, and that's how the

424
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Speaker 1: deputy sheriff knows. I just think the deputy sheriff's job

425
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 1: is to know when strain come through town. So Kenny

426
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: came through. He had only recently come into the area

427
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: from Palo Alto. He did have multiple arrests from public

428
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: intoxication and robbery, and he had kind of gone back

429
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 1: and forth between Washington State and California because he had

430
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Speaker 1: some family there and he also had been a truck

431
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 1: driver at one point. So there's the victim. I have

432
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Speaker 1: a description of the injuries that happened to him. I'm

433
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: assuming you'd like to know that next. Absolutely, Kenny had

434
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: been stabbed on the left side of his chest, piercing

435
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 1: his lung and severing the aorta. And so this was

436
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: about eight to ten inches through the chest. There's a

437
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: cut behind the fifth finger on his right hand, described

438
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: as a chop style, a chopped type wound. There's a

439
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 1: knife slice on the right wrist that penetrates to the bone,

440
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: slash on his left cheek, multiple head wounds, largest of

441
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 1: which was four inches long and deep, cutting to the

442
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: skull and into the cranial vault. And in this report,

443
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: the physician estimated that the weapon was a eight to

444
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: ten inch long blade. Let me stop there and then

445
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: we'll talk about stuff that was found on the body,

446
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: like just evidence from the body.

447
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 2: Sure, well, at least the injuries to his hands, that

448
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 2: sounds consistent with defensive wounds. So the victim is aware

449
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 2: he's being attacked, he's trying to ward off this offender

450
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: who's armed with a knife. This four inch long sounds

451
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 2: like an incisive injury, but it also penetrates through the skull.

452
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 2: You know. That's a significant amount of force, you know.

453
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 2: And I've got one poor victim. The knife was embedded

454
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: inside his head and it was left by the offender there.

455
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 2: So knives will go through skull, you know. But this

456
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 2: is indicating that the offender is attacking this victim. The

457
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 2: victim is aware. And then ultimately, you know, the fatal

458
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 2: stab wound going into I think you said the chest

459
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: into the aorta, you know. And so now once the

460
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 2: aorta is penetrated like that, it's possible the victim bleeds

461
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: out internally, very very quickly.

462
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: Well, they are searching his body and in the pocket,

463
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: the deputy sheriff finds what he says is homosexual literature.

464
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: For the audio audience, I'm using quotes homosexual literature. We

465
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: don't hear about this again. You know, we're wondering. We

466
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 1: have a new researcher, Allison, and she's wondering if this

467
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: even really if the size love The deputy sheriff didn't

468
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 1: really know what he was talking about because it's not

469
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: wrought up later on, but that's what they say is

470
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: on him. And then you know, I have a little

471
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: bit of a timeline, but that's basically it. You know,

472
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 1: he's just somebody who wants It doesn't seem like he

473
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 1: was somebody who worked on the orchard. But I asked

474
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 1: Alison to look a little bit deeper into access because

475
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: I know you're going to ask about access, and the

476
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: orchard essentially is accessible to anybody. There are multiple roads.

477
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: It's not hard to get into. We can see how

478
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: isolated it is. He might or he might not have

479
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: worked on the orchard, but it wouldn't have been difficult

480
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 1: for somebody to get there. And maybe he was eating peaches.

481
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: It's a peach orchard, you know.

482
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 2: Sure, you know if he's if he's a wanderer and

483
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: you know, needing some food. But okay, so this homosexual literature,

484
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 2: this is nineteen seventy one. Things that are popping into

485
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 2: my head. Is this a you know, something that had

486
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: limited distribution. Can this be traced back to a particular

487
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: location in town or to maybe some other location outside

488
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 2: of Yuba. Is it consistent with what is known about

489
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: the victim? You know, part of my concern is there

490
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 2: there's a possibility that this is staged, that the offender

491
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 2: planted this this homosexual literature in a way to at

492
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 2: that point in time, disparage who the victim was, you know,

493
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: to throw and throw law enforcement off of you know,

494
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 2: whatever leads. The timeline I think is also going to

495
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 2: be important because we know we have a predug grave.

496
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 2: So when was this grave doug relative to the last

497
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: time the victim was seen alive. You know, it was

498
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 2: this particular victim targeted, and you know, the grave is dug,

499
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 2: then the victim is is lured to a location. I'm

500
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: assuming there's no evidence that the victim was killed at

501
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 2: the grave.

502
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: Site, no evidence of that from what I can.

503
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 2: See, so he killed elsewhere. And then the offender already

504
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 2: has the grave ready to go so he can dump

505
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: the body, push the dirt in, and get out of

506
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: there pretty quick. You know. So that would indicate that

507
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: the offender had pre selected the victim. You know, is

508
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: a relationship between the two. So there's there's sort of questions,

509
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 2: and I think that's the next thing I'd want to

510
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 2: know is, you know, what timeline do we have about

511
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: this victim? And I know with a wandering type of victim,

512
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: it's probably scant.

513
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: Here's the timeline for what happened with Kenny the day before.

514
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: So there were a lot of interviews with community members

515
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: and this is what they say. Now, remember this is

516
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: a guy who hasn't been in Ubi City very long.

517
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: It's like he has family there. The day before they

518
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: discover his grave, Kenny was seen at one o'clock in

519
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: the afternoon in Tierra Bueno, which is between Uba City

520
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: and Sutter. Then six and a half hours to seven

521
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: and a half hours later people see him walking back

522
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: toward Ubas City. So that's at night, seven thirty, eight

523
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: thirty at night. On the day of the murder, he

524
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: was seen at nine o'clock in the morning and he

525
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: seemed to be heading back to the Bay area where

526
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: his siblings lived. So the last time people saw him

527
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: was nine am when his body was discovered later in

528
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: the day by the farmer.

529
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 2: Is he hitchhiking?

530
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: You know, he must have been hitchhiking. It doesn't say,

531
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: but how else how would he have gotten back to

532
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: the bay area. Would he be walking?

533
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's a long walk.

534
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: That's a maybe the train, maybe hopped a train or something.

535
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: I don't know what he was doing.

536
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 2: Potentially hitchhiking nineteen seventy one. Hitchhiking, of course, was a big,

537
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: big thing that was just common. Now this is interesting

538
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 2: because at least with his timeline so nine am on

539
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 2: the morning that he's literally found in a grave later

540
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: on that day, Yep, he's trying to get down to

541
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: the Bay area. And I'm gonna say he's hitch hiking

542
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 2: or something, but he's a victim of opportunity. How would

543
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 2: an offender have known, you know, with Kenneth his move

544
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 2: movement pattern like this, I have to consider the possibility

545
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 2: that we've got an offender that is out there literally

546
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: trolling for victims. Just just like you have an offender

547
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: that is going into a stroll area where sex workers

548
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: are just trying to find somebody. This could potentially be

549
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 2: an offender that is going, Okay, here's a guy that

550
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: needs a ride and I've got and this offender wants

551
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 2: to do something to this man. Maybe it's of sexual nature,

552
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,719
Speaker 2: that's part. He's a fantasy motivated offender and he's already

553
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: dug the grave and he's going to try to get

554
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: this you know, victim isolated to do whatever and kill

555
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 2: him and dump him in the grave. And you know

556
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: this this comes into you know, even though Kenneth is clothed,

557
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: you know, is there a possibility that there was sexual

558
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: interaction between this offender and Kenneth? And did they actually

559
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 2: consider that? Chances are eineteen seventy one with a fully

560
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 2: closed mail victim, probably not. But you know that's just

561
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 2: something that's now. You know that that packet, that homosexual

562
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: literature packet or flyer or whatever it is, that might

563
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: be really significant to the offender himself, Like this could

564
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: be something that the offender either planted or maybe the

565
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 2: victim is somebody that exchanges you know, sexual acts with

566
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: men for money or for drugs, whatever, you know, whatever

567
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: his payment aspect is.

568
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: This book or whatever it was a pamphlet doesn't come

569
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: up later on in the story at all, but the

570
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: media does talk about it. So there's there's some churn there.

571
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: But it's also the media. You know, how we work

572
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: in the media. We pick up on the most salacious

573
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: things sometimes and amplify it. Sure, but I do think

574
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: it's important to keep that in mind. So two days later,

575
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: as investigating Kenny's case, the Cutter County Sheriff's Department gets

576
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: a tip from an officer in nearby Marysville, and so

577
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: two days later there is an assault that happened. There's

578
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: a survivor, but there's an assault that happens. The vicious

579
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: nature of this assault in Marysville reminds the sheriff there

580
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: of the vicious nature of what happened with Kenny. So

581
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what happened. The folks investigating Kenny's murder

582
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: get a tip two days later because this was such

583
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,719
Speaker 1: a vicious murder, it reminded somebody in a different area,

584
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: not far from ubis city, of an assault that happened

585
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: the year before. What happens is is February twenty fifth

586
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy and at one o'clock in the morning,

587
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: there's a man named Jose Romero Rea, and someone at

588
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: a bar slash restaurant had beaten him and cut him

589
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: with a meat cleaver at the restaurants called Guadalajara Restaurant

590
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: and Cafe. Police describe the injuries with the meat cleavers

591
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: so severe that they said, quote, the brain was leaking

592
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: from one cut to the top of the head. And

593
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: he survives this This guy, I mean, that just seems

594
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: unsurvivable to me, But maybe not.

595
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it all depends on what was what damage was done. Yeah,

596
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 2: you know, we have people shot in the head and

597
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 2: they survive and are able to live a decent life afterwards.

598
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: So is there any indication in terms of I mean,

599
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: was Rea just attacked randomly while at this restaurant or

600
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 2: did he get into some sort of argument with another male?

601
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 2: You know, is this like a bar fight gone bad.

602
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of information on that assault and

603
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: what the motive was. But they did clear the owner,

604
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: Natividad Corona, who had been there, and there was a

605
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: patron who did the attack in the bathroom and then left.

606
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: I doubt he brought a meat cleaver with him, but

607
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: I assume that, you know, this was something that the

608
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 1: offender got at the restaurant, but this tip came in

609
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: and this is something that happened a year earlier. I

610
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: think it was the meat cleaver aspect of it that

611
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 1: tipped everybody off. And so you know, they just keep

612
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: that in mind for right now what happened in Marysville. Sure, Okay,

613
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: now we're five days after Kinney's body has been found.

614
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: We're at a different orchard. We've gone from peaches to prunes,

615
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: I'm not a big fan of prunes. Do you like prunes?

616
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: I think I've had them once in my life. Maybe

617
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 2: I'm sorry.

618
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: Don't give me any hate, you guys if you love prunes.

619
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: I've never gotten into prunes, which is weird because I

620
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: love plums. I love grapes, hate raisins. So explain all.

621
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 2: That, you know, kind of kind of the same, I

622
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 2: guess really, I can't remember the last time I ate raisins.

623
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 1: I'm a raisin fan. But anyway, so now we're on

624
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 1: a prune orchard and we're to talk about a picture

625
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: in a second, So get your hand ready for the

626
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: picture section here, because I want you to see the vastness.

627
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 1: I've seen big orchards, but these are massive. So this

628
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: is a different place. It's called Sullivan Ranch, and this

629
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: is where we have a lot of activity happening. There

630
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: is a tractor driver named Ernesto Garcia, and he's on

631
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: the ranch. He works for the ranch. This is five

632
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: miles north of Yuba City and it's May twenty fourth.

633
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: He's breaking there's another piece of info for you. He's

634
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: breaking up the soil on the prune orchard and he

635
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: sees a large indentation in the ground between the seventh

636
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: and eighth rows. He thinks that the farm hand responsible

637
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: for irrigating the area skipped a row, and so you know,

638
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: somebody wasn't doing their job, and there's an indentation, but

639
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: the ground is soft and there's a shallow depression which

640
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 1: is about six feet by two or three feet deep.

641
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: So I think there's no doubt that we've got a

642
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: connection here. Next day, Garcia alerts his foreman, who is

643
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 1: a guy named Ray Deron. I thought the next day,

644
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: why did he not alert somebody sooner? But Garcia actually

645
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: waited because it was late in the day when he

646
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: saw this indentation, and he had hoped that the foreman

647
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: might say, oh, yeah, this is you know, this was

648
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: a new game plan. Don't worry about it, and he

649
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: didn't want to look like he was being paranoid, even

650
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: though word had gotten around about what happened at the

651
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: previous orchard. So he sees this thing and he goes,

652
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: they can't be connected. There's no way. So then Deran,

653
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: the foreman, contact detectives. They show up and in less

654
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 1: than ten minutes, than coover a decomposed body. The person

655
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 1: is wearing mismatched clothing, two pairs of pants, a plaid shirt,

656
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 1: a sweater, a suit coat, and one shoe. He is

657
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 1: in his sixties, he's a white man. And then I've

658
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: got the injuries, but you can imagine they're probably pretty consistent.

659
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 1: So you know, what do you think about this so

660
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:05,280
Speaker 1: far different?

661
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: Orchard? Well, it's interesting. So, you know, first addressing the

662
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 2: indentation and the body is decomposed, I'm wondering if that

663
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 2: body had been buried there for a significant period of

664
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 2: time and as the body decomposed, now what you have

665
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 2: is the dirt that's on top of the body ends

666
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 2: up kind of compressing the body as the body is decomposing,

667
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: and so what may have been level land before as

668
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 2: that body decomposed, in essence, the dirt sunk down and

669
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: now revealed the location of this grave site. That's one possibility.

670
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,879
Speaker 2: The mismatched clothing on the victim, you know. The two

671
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 2: thoughts on that is, again, are you dealing with a

672
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 2: transient victim who you know, is just wearing clothing wherever

673
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 2: he could find articles of clothing, and is just that's

674
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 2: what he's got on? But I think there's all so

675
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 2: the possibility of this victim is being redressed by the offender,

676
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 2: and the offender has access, for whatever reason, to these

677
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 2: articles of clothing. Two pants, a suit coat, one what

678
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 2: was it, one shoe or one boot. You know, that

679
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: is odd, So at least that's what you know I

680
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 2: can kind of discern from now. But obviously there's got

681
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 2: to be strong suspicion that this case is connected to

682
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 2: the previous case, even though it's in a different orchard.

683
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: So the person who did the autopsy is a guy

684
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: named doctor Clement. He says there is a stab to

685
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: this man's chest that is so powerful it shatters the

686
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 1: fifth rib and cuts into the left lung. His face

687
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 1: is slashed on both sides, and there is a third

688
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: cut at the nape of the neck. At the morgue

689
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 1: they find matches and a couple of Safeway receipts dated

690
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: May eighth. This is May twenty fifth, so you know,

691
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, a box of snuff and

692
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: two bars of soap, and a razor. So this man

693
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: seems to be definitely a transient somebody who's kind of

694
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: come in, a worker who's come in and come out

695
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: of town. Doctor Clement says that the cause of death

696
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 1: is strangulation. The extent to which his bronchial tubes are

697
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: filled with blood, however, make it impossible to determine whether

698
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: the chest or the head wounds were more lethal. Okay,

699
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: And the decomposition of the body places the time of

700
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: death at one or two weeks earlier. And the victim's

701
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: name turns out to be Charles Fleming. So if they're right,

702
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: and you need to tell me first if you think

703
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 1: that they could be right. If they're right, this man,

704
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: Charles Fleming is killed before Kenney was killed. And remember

705
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: this is seventy five degree, whether that's kind of it.

706
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 2: Well as far as the injuries, you know, if the

707
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 2: pathologist is saying cause of death is strained, then he

708
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 2: is seeing evidence and evaluating the neck that there's either

709
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: hemorrhaging and the strap muscles of the neck and there's

710
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 2: you know, hyoid bone has been broken. There's a furrow

711
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 2: around his neck. You know, if there's a ligature that

712
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 2: had been employed at some point, maybe there's petikias still

713
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 2: present within the eyes, but the state of decomposition might

714
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 2: prevent him from seeing that. I'm a little bit concerned

715
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 2: with the emphasis on the amount of blood in these victims'

716
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 2: lungs and that he basically drowned in his own blood.

717
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 2: I don't think a pathologist would misinterpret, you know, but

718
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 2: is there is it asphyxial, you know, versus strangulation. But

719
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 2: I'm I'm just going to assume this pathologist knows what

720
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 2: they're doing, and so he's seeing evidence that, yes, this

721
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 2: victim is strangled. But then the stab wound into the

722
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 2: left lung, the one that fractured the fifth rib. Now

723
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 2: you've got the bleeding internally, and you see this where

724
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,240
Speaker 2: now victims are literally they're struggling to breathe, they're coughing

725
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: up blood, and you start to see this what we

726
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 2: call expiratory patterns of blood as they are just struggling

727
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 2: to get air in. It's miserable. I can't imagine going

728
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 2: through something like that. However, from a sequence standpoint, it

729
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 2: seems more logical that this victim is being attacked with

730
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 2: the knife first, and then once the victim is starting

731
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 2: to succumb to those injuries, the offender is finishing the

732
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 2: victim off with the strangulation. That is what I would

733
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 2: guess is the sequence of how that happened. Kind of

734
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: the finding of the matches. The receipts. Those receipts are huge.

735
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: You know. It sounds like Fleming is alive on May

736
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: eighth and is somehow is contacted by the offender after

737
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 2: that date. State of decomposition would probably suggest relatively soon,

738
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 2: in a few days after that May eighth the date,

739
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 2: But it also tends to suggest he is more of

740
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: a transient type with the razor, so, you know, kind

741
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 2: of similar victimology to the first victim.

742
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: Yep, why don't you go to your photos real quick

743
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 1: and look on page two. I want you to see

744
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: this flipping ranch. It's four hundred to six hundred acres.

745
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: I just if I were a deputy, I would look

746
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: at this and say, because now they feel like this

747
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: is obviously a multiple murderer at this point. So I mean,

748
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 1: can you imagine trying to do a grid search or

749
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: anything on this land?

750
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 2: Well, you know, obviously, yes, this I'm looking at it

751
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 2: appears to be an aero photograph showing sort of the

752
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: primary structures on the ranch, maybe a residence, maybe some

753
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: barns for housing tractors and stuff. But on either side

754
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 2: of where the structures are located, you can just see

755
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 2: the sprawl of a very organized orchard, kind of like

756
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: how you're describing the Medesta so almond orchards, that's what

757
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,720
Speaker 2: this looks like. And so yes, you know, if now

758
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 2: the thought is, okay, we've got another buried body, how

759
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 2: many more bodies are out here? The size of this

760
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 2: this orchard, if we're going to restrict ourselves to just

761
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 2: this orchard, yes, that would take a very very long

762
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: time to search. However, it's because of the spacing of

763
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: the trees. There's sort of a convenience aspect. You can utilize,

764
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 2: you know, the row and column aspect of the trees

765
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 2: to organize your search pattern. If you find something, you're

766
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 2: able to very quickly designate, you know where that whatever

767
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 2: you found, where that's located on this orchard, and you

768
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: can easily walk through these trees. You know, when I've

769
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,919
Speaker 2: had to do some searching, oftentimes I'm having to push through.

770
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: I can think one case where I'm pushing through poison

771
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,720
Speaker 2: oak on the side of a hill. I'd much rather

772
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: search this orchard then go, you know, hunt, you know,

773
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 2: for other bodies in poison oak.

774
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 1: This is such a large space. But you're right, I mean,

775
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: you could be a lot more organized on this kind

776
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 1: of land.

777
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 2: It's easy for dogs to run through this.

778
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:17,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and different than the Peach Orchard. Seemed

779
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: like a huge mess, but let's continue on. So they

780
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: stay and look around because of course they fear that

781
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: there are more bodies out there, and I'm assuming that

782
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: there are people at the Peach Orchard who are also

783
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 1: looking for more bodies there. Around six o'clock on the

784
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: twenty fifth, same day, they discover a clearing near the

785
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: Feather River on the Sullivan Ranch and I have a

786
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: photo of that if you want to see that. And

787
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: the clearing is another grave. There is also something we

788
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,280
Speaker 1: haven't seen yet, which is a fifteen to sixteen yard

789
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: blood trail that leads across a road to a red,

790
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: blood soaked patch of dry grass in the Prune Orchard.

791
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: And there's dirt that's been sprinkled on the grass and

792
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: attempt to cover the blood, and there are shovel marks

793
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: on the access road. And I had wondered if that's

794
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: what happened with the first two, that those are actually

795
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: the murder scenes, but he managed to cover up with

796
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: loose dirt and stuff.

797
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, this third grave, you know, with the blood

798
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 2: trail and then what sounds like, you know, blood pooled blood.

799
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 2: That would suggest, yes, you have a victim that's been killed,

800
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 2: was laying at that location for some period of time

801
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 2: and has then moved, leaving that blood trail over to

802
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 2: where the grave is. And if you are seeing that,

803
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: this sounds very recent. You know, we think about the

804
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 2: dirt that's out there. You know, that blood is sticky.

805
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 2: You know, as the dirt gets blown, you know a

806
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 2: lot of the blood is going to just get covered

807
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: up by that dirt is going to you know, that

808
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 2: dirt's going to stick to it. I'm somewhat surprised, but

809
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 2: maybe not totally that the offender is isolating the victims

810
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: out in his orchards and this is where he's killing

811
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 2: them and burying them. But with the first one though,

812
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: that that grave. You know, unless unless the offender and

813
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 2: the victim, you know, the offender's got a knife to

814
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 2: the victim's throat telling him to shut up as the

815
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 2: witness you know, goes by, you know, it would suggest

816
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 2: that he's pre planning the location and where he's going

817
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: to bring the victims, at least for body disposal. But

818
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 2: it sounds like in this case he brought the victim

819
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: to the location where he's disposing the body, but the

820
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: victim is alive, and then he kills the victim. Here,

821
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 2: why is he killing the victim? Is this is this robbery?

822
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 2: But I think you potentially are looking at a fantasy

823
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 2: motivated offender. There may be a sexual aspect to what

824
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 2: this offender is getting from his interactions with these males.

825
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 1: Well, let's keep going. You know, they find a shoe print,

826
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 1: they make a plaster cast in the grave with this

827
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: latest person. They find a cigarette, but a small dark

828
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: feather and two folded receipts, and you know, of course

829
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: when we say resipts, so that's that's you know, maybe

830
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: it'll be part of this timeline. They don't think it's

831
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: something that's going to be key because they look at

832
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: the body and it's very clear to the pathologist that

833
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: these are wounds that had been inflicted in the last

834
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,399
Speaker 1: twenty four hours. Okay, he said that is very clear.

835
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: Is that based on the blood clotting or.

836
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 2: What well, it's going to be based off of his

837
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 2: assessment of the condition of the body, Like you said,

838
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 2: you know, we're talking about you know, seventy five degree

839
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 2: temperatures during the day, it's going to drop to cooler

840
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:43,240
Speaker 2: temperatures at night. You're putting a body into a ground

841
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 2: that is going to be cool, you know, So the

842
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 2: body is being preserved somewhat. Now, twenty four hours later,

843
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,479
Speaker 2: the pathologist is going to be taking a look at well,

844
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 2: is there any rigor present? You know, do I have

845
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 2: full rigor do I have partial rigor. He's assessing the temperatures,

846
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 2: the location, you know, the body in essences in a

847
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 2: I wouldn't call it a refrigerated state, but is in

848
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 2: a somewhat of a cooled state. But when he's looking

849
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 2: at these wounds, he's not necessarily able to gauge, oh,

850
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 2: you know, this wound was inflicted five hours ago versus

851
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 2: twenty four hours ago. He's taken in the totality of

852
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 2: what he is seeing and saying, this is a fresh kill.

853
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let me tell you about the victim. They

854
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: identify him. He's a white male, he's fifty nine. His

855
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 1: name is Milford Sample, and he has nine fingers, which

856
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: I don't think comes into play, but there you go.

857
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: He has been stabbed in the left chest, has a large,

858
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:38,720
Speaker 1: deep cut in the back of the head. The wounds

859
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: appear to have been inflicted within the last twenty four hours.

860
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: As I said, cause of death according to this physician

861
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:49,760
Speaker 1: is a skull fracture, massive compound right temporal parietal bone.

862
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: Does this fit in with the same pattern, you know.

863
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 2: To a lesser or a greater extent, But fundamentally the

864
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 2: offender is using sharp edged weapon, maybe a meat cleaver,

865
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 2: you know something where you've got this what sounds like

866
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 2: a deep cut to the back of the head. Then

867
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 2: you also have the skull fractures, which at least there's

868
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 2: not enough in what you provided to say. Is there

869
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 2: is that a result of some sort of bludgeoning, you know,

870
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,240
Speaker 2: so maybe or it could be a stomping. It almost

871
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 2: sounds like this victim, you know, was this somewhat of

872
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 2: a surprise attack. You know where the victims, you know,

873
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 2: the standing out there in the orchard, and now you

874
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,240
Speaker 2: have the offender says, you know, hey, what's that over there,

875
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 2: and then pulls out a meat cleaver and brings it

876
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 2: down into the back of his head. Fully clothed. It

877
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 2: says it, yes, okay, all the victims are white males.

878
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 2: This victim, do we know is he also transient he is.

879
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 2: And so I think, you know, going back to when

880
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 2: you first started talking about this case and talking about

881
00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 2: offenders targeting victims that when be noticed if they go missing. Right,

882
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 2: So this offender is praying on a certain population, purposely

883
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 2: praying on a certain population, and this is a population

884
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 2: that doesn't have financial resources. Robbery does not seem to

885
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 2: be this offender's motive. And now I'm thinking, Okay, we

886
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 2: do have a serial predator that's either he's sexually motivated,

887
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 2: fantasy induced, or maybe he's I'll use this term missionary.

888
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 2: He's got a mission. He has maybe a personal philosophy

889
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 2: that somehow these men are representative of being opposed to

890
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 2: what this offender's philosophy is.

891
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: We've talked about this kind of case before, where you

892
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: have people who kind of had a vendetta essentially, and

893
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 1: they're seeking revenge. So we'll have to see where we

894
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 1: land on this one. Okay, So now we have as

895
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: far as victims, we have Kenny, then we have an

896
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: assault on Jose, who doesn't die but has massive facial

897
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 1: and brain injuries from the attack. We've got Charles Fleming,

898
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 1: and then we go to when we go to Feather river.

899
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:13,760
Speaker 1: We have Milford sample, and now they're going to continue

900
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 1: to spread out because they feel like this is a

901
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: hot spot. And they are right in five hundred yards.

902
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 1: The surrounding five hundred yards, they find four more graves.

903
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,720
Speaker 1: There's one that's one hundred yards north and a cluster

904
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: of three victims less than four hundred yards south of

905
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 1: the first grave. And some of these are John Doe's

906
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 1: I can tell you about you know some of these.

907
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: I mean, we be here all day talking about this,

908
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: but everything is very similar. So we've got four more graves.

909
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: There is a white John Doe number one. He's been

910
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 1: bludgeoned to death. His shirt and sweatshirt are pulled up

911
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: over his face. In his arm, he's not wearing pants,

912
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: and his penis is exposed. It appears that he had

913
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 1: been dragged to his grave. And then I can tell

914
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 1: you about the three other that were You have three

915
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: other victims that were kind of in a cluster a

916
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 1: little south of where this initial grave was. We've got

917
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 1: three middle aged white men, Donald Smith, John Haluca, and

918
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: another John Doe, John Doe number two. So Smith, the

919
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: first guy has his shirt and sweatshirt pulled up over

920
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: his face. And arm, and nothing on John than the

921
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,879
Speaker 1: man in the center. But the third body was extremely decomposed.

922
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: They've all been stabbed in the chest and cleaved in

923
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: the back of their heads. And John Doe too is

924
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: naked from the waist down. Everybody is a is a

925
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 1: you know, a worker, transient.

926
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 2: Worker, sure, you know. And I think that that kind

927
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 2: of answers the question. There's there's a sexual component to

928
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 2: what the offender is doing to these victims. So he's

929
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 2: he's a serial predator, fantasy motivated.

930
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about where these guys are from real quick.

931
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 1: So Smith and Heluca are you know, workers that have

932
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 1: been on orchards. But they're pretty different. Smith was from Kansas.

933
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: He was on his own on the road for a

934
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 1: very long time. He had ninety seven arrests for drunkenness

935
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 1: and misdemeanors. Haluca had kept himself, He didn't drink, He

936
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 1: kept his money in his pocket. But you know, they're

937
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 1: on orchards and that's the common denominator, right. He said

938
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 1: he kept money in his pocket to avoid being arrested

939
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 1: for vagrancy, to be able to prove he had money.

940
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 2: It sounds like, yeah, well, obviously the offender is comfortable

941
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 2: around these orchards. There's a reason why the offender is

942
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 2: choosing orchards versus maybe more remote locations. You've got these

943
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 2: these four additional victims being found, and one of the

944
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 2: victims is severely decomposed. So now that might provide some

945
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 2: sequence information in terms of the order in which you know,

946
00:54:56,120 --> 00:55:00,040
Speaker 2: these various cases occurred, you know, and then we go

947
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 2: back to the Marysville bar that happened a year prior

948
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,399
Speaker 2: to the start of these bodies being found, and that

949
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 2: may be related. You know, I think it is significant

950
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 2: that in that case, that's the only non white male

951
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 2: that is being attacked, and that was a Hispanic mail

952
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 2: I'm assuming just based off of the name. You know,

953
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 2: it comes down to, you know, who is that patron

954
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 2: that attacked that guy in that restaurant, you know, and

955
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 2: can you investigate whether or not he has any role

956
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 2: in these homicides that are occurring on the orchards.

957
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 1: Well, let me give you a couple of more victims here.

958
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 1: It just keeps going. It's seven forty five pm that night,

959
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: it's starting to rain, but the detectives just found two

960
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:53,839
Speaker 1: more graves, different states of decomposition and they're laid foot

961
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: to foot near a fork in the road that leads

962
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,879
Speaker 1: back to the main part of this Sullivan ranch. There

963
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 1: are two sixty two old men and one of them

964
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: had his pants pulled down. They've both been stabbed and

965
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,879
Speaker 1: cleaved like the other ones, both white.

966
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,359
Speaker 2: And then they're buried right next to each other.

967
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, their foot to foot is what it said, near

968
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: a road that leads back to the main road of

969
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 1: the ranch. What does that mean? And it sounds like

970
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: very decomposed.

971
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 2: So but they're saying two different states of decomposition. Sounds

972
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 2: like they're killed at different times versus both of them

973
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 2: are killed at the same time and buried. So this,

974
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,839
Speaker 2: you know, there's a certain I think because there's a

975
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 2: cluster of three bodies that were near each other that

976
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 2: you said before. You know, this is interesting just because

977
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 2: I go to the Green River killer case where Gary

978
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 2: Ridgeway purposefully put women's bodies in clusters, and when he

979
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,880
Speaker 2: was interviewed, the reason he did that is so he

980
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 2: could remember where he had put them and he would

981
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 2: go back and visit these women's bodies. And I'm not

982
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 2: going to go into any details what he was doing

983
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 2: with some of these women's bodies. But this is where

984
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 2: you know, I'm starting to wonder in this case. You know,

985
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 2: are these gray sites so near each other because these

986
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 2: are good body disposal areas and the offenders taking advantage

987
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 2: of that, or is the offender got a personal reason

988
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 2: to put these bodies together like that?

989
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 1: You know, these men are all the consistency is they

990
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 1: sort of belong on orchards, They've been on orchards, they've

991
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 1: worked on orchards before. But one of the men is

992
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: not somebody who was a worker, transit worker. He had

993
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: lived in Marysville for twenty years, and he'd been working

994
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: on orchards and he answered security checks that he was cashing.

995
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 1: He was last seen getting into a yellow looking Chevy

996
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 1: panel van and he picked up his last one on

997
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: my first and his friend alerted the police that there

998
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: was a missing person.

999
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 2: It was a Chevy van, a yellow Chevy van that

1000
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 2: had had panels on it. Yep, it seems quite distinctive.

1001
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 2: This is a clue that I'm sure the investigators started

1002
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 2: marching down on Yep.

1003
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. So now we're at twelve ten am and after

1004
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 1: multiple hours of unearthing victims in the rain, they find

1005
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 1: three more but they're exhausted, and they said, we have

1006
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 1: to be done for tonight, and so you know, they

1007
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 1: end up leaving the three graves for the next day.

1008
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: So this is all happening in one day, and I

1009
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 1: lost count of how many they discovered. I mean maybe

1010
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 1: six or seven I think in one day.

1011
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 2: In one day. Yeah, No, that's you know, they made

1012
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 2: the right call trying to you know, first, I think

1013
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,919
Speaker 2: with this type of crime scene, once it starts to rain,

1014
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 2: I think you're done. I think you have to call

1015
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 2: it a day and just wait. The worst for evidence,

1016
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 2: the worst for documentation, et cetera, is trying to process.

1017
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 2: I'm seen in the rain, and then when you now

1018
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:06,040
Speaker 2: get into where it's now nighttime. I don't care how

1019
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:09,479
Speaker 2: good your lights are. You know that you erect out there,

1020
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 2: it's not as good as sunshine. Yeah. So in essence,

1021
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 2: you know, they probably worked longer than they should have,

1022
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 2: but there's no reason to continue. They're making the right calls.

1023
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 2: Let's do this right when we can see and hopefully

1024
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 2: the rain has stopped in the morning.

1025
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they're not going to become suddenly more decomposed

1026
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 1: or lose anything there if they're buried on that land,

1027
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: they're safely buried for twelve hours.

1028
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. I, in fact, I had a case I at

1029
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 2: least started digging up a woman's body on Hell's Angels property.

1030
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 2: This is within a year of me retiring, and I

1031
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 2: remember arguing with the homicide investigator because I said, no,

1032
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 2: we're done. This is a this is a body, and

1033
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 2: we're going to get the crime lab out here to

1034
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 2: do a proper dig in the morning. And this guy

1035
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 2: was lighting me up. We're going to lose evidence. This

1036
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:04,640
Speaker 2: sounds like, no, you're not. Nothing is going to change

1037
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 2: between now and in the morning, and all we're going

1038
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 2: to do is screw things up if we keep doing

1039
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 2: this in the middle of the night.

1040
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 1: Well, that's obviously smart. And it seems like we have

1041
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 1: investigators who have it together because we do have a suspect.

1042
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: You're right, it is connected to the assault that happened

1043
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 1: the year before, and you know, we will talk about

1044
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 1: that and we will talk about sort of the ending

1045
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 1: and how many bodies they end up discovering next week.

1046
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I look forward to it. This is a

1047
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 2: fascinating case.

1048
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 1: Good, I know, a good serial killer case. You love them.

1049
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: I'm spoiling you need to I need to pace myself

1050
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 1: a little bit better.

1051
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:45,040
Speaker 2: Wow, this is great.

1052
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 1: Thanks Kate, Okay bye. This has been an exactly right

1053
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 1: production for.

1054
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot

1055
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1056
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1057
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1058
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1059
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1060
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1061
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1062
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1063
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod.

1064
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1065
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1066
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1067
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1068
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

1069
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 2: Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1070
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