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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. Welcome to Stephane. Never

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Speaker 1: told your production of I Heart Radio. It's time for

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Speaker 1: another feminist movie Friday. This is a listener suggestion and

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Speaker 1: I want to do it because as this comes out,

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Speaker 1: unless something has shifted on our schedule, which is always possible,

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Speaker 1: it is Friday. I was going to stay here in

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Speaker 1: the US, but I guess most places other places also,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's the significance is more US. I don't know. Traditionally,

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Speaker 1: if like that's a bad number anywhere else, it's pretty sure,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. China, they don't have a lot of the

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Speaker 1: elevators don't have thirteen. Yeah, possibly, and it's kind of like,

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Speaker 1: but if it's floor, even if it isn't called the team,

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Speaker 1: is it still bad luck? And that's a question for

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Speaker 1: a different podcast, because yes, we need to ask truth Hounds.

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Speaker 1: Let's get him on the phone. But no, we are

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Speaker 1: talking about Jennifer's Body, which is a movie I actually

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Speaker 1: only recently saw, I think in the past two years.

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Speaker 1: Based on your suggestion, Samantha and I really really enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: I think it was for Female Revenge. I can't remember

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Speaker 1: what episode it was specifically, but I watched like, oh,

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Speaker 1: Female Monsters, that a Female Monsters episode. So I was

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Speaker 1: really shocked, and we're gonna talk more about this in

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Speaker 1: a minute, that it bombs so badly because I really

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Speaker 1: liked it, and yeah, I found movie. Oh that was

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Speaker 1: a dumb movie. I was like, what did you watch it?

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Speaker 1: Because it was supposed to be tongue in cheek, like

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Speaker 1: it's absolutely of course some of the things don't translate.

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Speaker 1: Well today you're like, oh, that did not age. Please

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Speaker 1: don't use that word, please don't use that phrase whatever,

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Speaker 1: But the actual intent to me made sense. So I

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Speaker 1: was very apparently I was one up on everybody else

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Speaker 1: and understanding of this movie. But yeah, so I was

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Speaker 1: really shocked that it wasn't as good as well. Many

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Speaker 1: people said they didn't like it, and I'm like, but why,

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Speaker 1: it's hilarious. It's fantastic. Do you remember when you saw it?

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Speaker 1: Did you see in theaters? Or I didn't see it

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Speaker 1: in theaters? It was much later, not much later, but

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Speaker 1: it was later. No, I was probably two thousand nine,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't watch it in theaters. It must have

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Speaker 1: been like I watched it on some type of special

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Speaker 1: movie channel because I keep wanting to say movie streaming

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Speaker 1: or whatever exists today which did not exist at that

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Speaker 1: point in time, because streaming did not exist. It was

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Speaker 1: Netflix out in two thousand nine, I think it was.

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Speaker 1: It was, It wasn't It was at least in that

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Speaker 1: like DBD for I think, so, yeah, I'm not rented.

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Speaker 1: I'm rented this movie somehow. There you go, there we go.

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Speaker 1: That's a long time I made to get because I

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Speaker 1: just my mind went to the streaming. This is how

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Speaker 1: old in my mind was like, oh yeah, I was

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Speaker 1: that old when I went to Blockbuster. I still have

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Speaker 1: a membership card because that was one in my college town.

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Speaker 1: I actually didn't see it, and, like I said, until

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Speaker 1: you suggested it recently. But and we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about this later, one of the reasons I didn't see

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Speaker 1: it was because the marketing campaign was so bad that

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Speaker 1: I thought, I don't think I thought what a lot

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Speaker 1: of people thought, which was that it was just going

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Speaker 1: to be like Megan Fox getting naked. But I did

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Speaker 1: think it was gonna have a lot more like sex

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Speaker 1: and nudity and just kind of be more body horror

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Speaker 1: than it is. And there's still some body horror there,

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Speaker 1: but not like what I was thinking, and so I

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Speaker 1: amvloided it out of that and we did at the time,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk about this too, But at the

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Speaker 1: time there was a real backlash against Megan Fox and

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Speaker 1: so I don't I don't remember. I wasn't like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be so stupid. I just thought, well,

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Speaker 1: it really isn't for me, And it turns out it

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Speaker 1: was for me. Of the whole marketing campaign we're gonna

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Speaker 1: get into, and also there is talk of a TV

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Speaker 1: show and we're another movie depending on what source you read.

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Speaker 1: Megan Fox j spoke out support of it, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of a big deal because she's pretty quiet about

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Speaker 1: this movie for a while. And this was writer Diablo

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Speaker 1: Cody's original intent. She thought it would be better as

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Speaker 1: like a ten part mini series type thing. Apparently this

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Speaker 1: movie served as a visual inspiration for Olivia Rodrigues Good

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Speaker 1: for You music video, which I will admit I haven't seen,

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Speaker 1: so I cannot say me either. Yeah, either where everybody's

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Speaker 1: clicked off of us were irrelevant, Now yes, we're absolutely irrelevant.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, let's go ahead and start with the plot.

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Speaker 1: Jenna first Body as a two that was a nine

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Speaker 1: horror movie directed by Karen Kusama, written by Diabolo Cody,

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Speaker 1: and starring Megan Fox as a popular high school student

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Speaker 1: Jennifer who gets possessed by a demon and goes on

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Speaker 1: a killing spree of her male classmates and Amanda Ciphered

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Speaker 1: as Anita or Needy, which is really on the nose,

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Speaker 1: her shy friend who tries to stop her, of course,

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Speaker 1: and we have to pretend like she's not a hot

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Speaker 1: girl just because she's got glasses. She's not hot, Okay cool.

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Speaker 1: And the title comes from a song of the same

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Speaker 1: name Mahole, who was also featured in this soundtrack, and

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Speaker 1: a graphic novel was released alongside the film. By the way,

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Speaker 1: the soundtrack is pretty good, especially if we have nostalgic

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Speaker 1: moments of early two thousand. Yeah, and the soundtrack was

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Speaker 1: very specifically chosen based on kind of this indie band thing.

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Speaker 1: So so let's break down the phont a little bit

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Speaker 1: more and talk about that. The story is told from

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Speaker 1: Anita's point of view, who narrates the movie from solitary

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Speaker 1: confinement where she is a violent mental patient, and through

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Speaker 1: flashbacks we learned that even though Nita Anita, I always

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Speaker 1: want to say Anita, but she's pretty much called needy

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Speaker 1: and everything I read. But anyway, friends with Jennifer. They've

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Speaker 1: been friends growing up from a young age in Devil's Kettle, Minnesota,

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Speaker 1: which is a great name. Anita calls them sandbox friends,

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Speaker 1: but they go on to nickname me Oather Vadgis Hill,

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Speaker 1: I'm monest At a high school, Anita is insecure, something

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Speaker 1: that Jennifer's selfish behavior only worse than. They're very codependent

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Speaker 1: on each other. When they're in high school, Jennifer convinces

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Speaker 1: Anita to come with her to a local spot to

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Speaker 1: see a band named Low Shoulder, and they are very

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Speaker 1: like emo kind of trying for this like panic at

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Speaker 1: the disco type thing. So as they're watching this show,

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Speaker 1: a fire breaks out in the bar, and then he

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Speaker 1: did tries and fails to keep Jennifer from going with

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Speaker 1: the band, and actually I forgot about Anita over hears

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Speaker 1: the conversation with the band members trying to be like

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Speaker 1: is she a virgin? Yes, she absolutely leave her alone? Yeah, yarts. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I also love that Chris Pratt pops in as someone

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, he pops up and you're like what And

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Speaker 1: then also j K Simmons playing his roles hilarious, and

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Speaker 1: Amy Sadera's playing the mom like this is an obvious

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Speaker 1: tongue in cheat movie. If you have those specific characters,

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Speaker 1: you should be aware. I guess maybe that to me

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Speaker 1: was like, maybe that's the hindsight thing because we know

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Speaker 1: them better now. But whatever. So later that night, Jennifer

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Speaker 1: shows up a Needy's home covered in blood trying to

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Speaker 1: scarf down chicken was she can't hold the food down

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Speaker 1: and puce of this black liquid dark black liquid apparently

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Speaker 1: has needles in it or something. Jennifer flees into the

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Speaker 1: night after she asks her are you scared? And with

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Speaker 1: Needy once again try and stop her, but failing to

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Speaker 1: do so and scurrying away because she's also scared. Jennifer

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Speaker 1: dismisses Needy's concerns the next day at school and seems

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Speaker 1: to be okay, as in fact glowing enough. However, yes,

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Speaker 1: Jennifer lore's the captain of the football team out into

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Speaker 1: the woods and this embowels him. It was not pretty.

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Speaker 1: His corpses later discovered, and of course all of the

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Speaker 1: animals I guess come around for the sacrifice. They're ready,

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Speaker 1: so they come preparing to eat the rest of the

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Speaker 1: leftover you. Meanwhile, the band Low Shoulder is suddenly basking

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Speaker 1: and praise for their heroism at the fire and preparing

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Speaker 1: to play a charity show at the school's spring formal

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Speaker 1: because you know, they rescued so many people and from

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Speaker 1: that fire, which if you watch, they did not, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: started in mysterious circumstances, shall we say so? Time passes

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Speaker 1: and Jennifer starts looking unwell. The glow fades. She goes

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Speaker 1: on a date with a golf boy and kills him

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Speaker 1: a nita while having sex with her Boyfriendship senses that

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Speaker 1: something is wrong and rushes out, almost hitting a blood

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Speaker 1: covered at Jennifer. With their car disturbed, Needy drives home

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Speaker 1: only to find Jennifer in her bedroom. Jennifer kisses her

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Speaker 1: and the pair briefly makes out before Jennifer tells Anya

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Speaker 1: that on the night of fire, Low Shoulder took her

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Speaker 1: into the woods and performed a Satanic ritual using her

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Speaker 1: as a virgin sacrifice to secure fame and fortune for themselves.

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Speaker 1: The thing is, she was not a virgin, and when

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Speaker 1: the bandleader was played by Adam Brody, murdered her. A

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Speaker 1: demon possessed her body, so it went wrong. She also

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Speaker 1: reveals that she had eaten a student presumed dead in

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Speaker 1: the fire that night. On top of that, she claims

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Speaker 1: she doesn't really feel pain and is now nearly impossible

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Speaker 1: to kill right. I also liked that they decided to

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Speaker 1: sing eight three or nine I know when they kill

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Speaker 1: her and they sat press It's awful. That scene is

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Speaker 1: actually really disturbing to me, it really, especially Megan Fox

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Speaker 1: does a great job and playing petrified victim there. So

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Speaker 1: the town is a reeling from the fire in recent depths,

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Speaker 1: and Needy decides to do some research, deciding that Jennifer

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Speaker 1: is a succubus, meaning she needs to feed on flesh

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Speaker 1: and is that her weakest when she's hungry. Anita shares

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Speaker 1: her findings with Boyfriendship and begs him not to go

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Speaker 1: to the spring formal, but he doesn't believe her. Surprise, surprise,

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Speaker 1: desperate Needy breaks up with him, trying to keep him

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Speaker 1: from going, but of course it doesn't work and he

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Speaker 1: goes to the dance and hopes of seeing her, but instead,

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Speaker 1: Oh here comes Jen of her, who suduces him into

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Speaker 1: an abandoned poolhouse. Of course, after lying about Colin the

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Speaker 1: emo got that she killed, and Needy finds Jennifer feeding

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Speaker 1: on him because she has a feeling of kissing her

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Speaker 1: boyfriends lives when Jennifer's kissing him, So there's a little link,

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Speaker 1: and I don't understand that it's okay, and maybe it's

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Speaker 1: just like how close they were growing up or something.

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Speaker 1: There's also an implication that she's in love with Jennifer,

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Speaker 1: so all of those may come into play for and

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Speaker 1: then she goes and tries to drown Jennifer, but Jennifer

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Speaker 1: attacks her only stopped and when Chip manages to stab her,

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Speaker 1: Jennifer flees after asking for a tampon because she's bleeding.

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Speaker 1: Did you get that, of course, leaving Needy alone to

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Speaker 1: witness her boyfriend's final breath. Yes, So Needy comes to

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Speaker 1: the conclusion that she has to kill Jennifer. She goes

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Speaker 1: to Jennifer's house and tacks her with a box cutter.

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Speaker 1: After a fight, Nita established Jnifer in the heart, killing her,

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Speaker 1: and she's discovered over Jennifer's body with the box cutter

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Speaker 1: by Jennifer's mom and is institutionalized. However, thanks to a

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Speaker 1: bite from Jennifer before Jennifer died, Needy has access to

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Speaker 1: some of her supernatural abilities. She uses them to escape

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Speaker 1: and hunts down the band. Determined to get revenge for

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Speaker 1: what happened to both her and Jennifer. She finds the

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Speaker 1: band and kills them. All right, yeah, there you go. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And as we said before, when this movie first came out,

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Speaker 1: it bombed at the box office, like the rating was

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Speaker 1: below for the way below percent and was not well received,

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Speaker 1: but it did go on to become a cult classic,

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Speaker 1: and I knows being revisited by so many articles about

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Speaker 1: how it was wronged and you know, how it was

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Speaker 1: dismissed and how Megan Flox was wrong which has been

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Speaker 1: a conversation in the last year. And the reason it's

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Speaker 1: bombed is worth talking about because a lot of again

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Speaker 1: of sexism is involved in sexualisation of Megan Fox and

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Speaker 1: just all dismissing of her in general. And again one

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Speaker 1: of the main reasons it bombed is because of how

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Speaker 1: it was marketed. Yes, yes, so while both Yabo Cody,

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Speaker 1: who was also part of this is she had just

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Speaker 1: made Juno, so like all these expectations around that, so

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Speaker 1: that was going on. Um while she and Karen Kusama

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Speaker 1: set out to make a movie about teenage girls four

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Speaker 1: teenage girls. They realized that the movie was being marketed

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Speaker 1: towards a straight male audience, and like, yeah, really sexualized

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Speaker 1: marketing that was fixated on Foxes sex appeal that made

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Speaker 1: it seem more like she was gonna be having sex

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Speaker 1: with dudes instead of you know, killing them. The irony

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Speaker 1: of the title and the whole point of the movie

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Speaker 1: was missed. Meeting audiences when and expecting something totally different

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Speaker 1: and we're disappointed. The marketing team even suggested that Megan

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Speaker 1: Fox host an amateur porn site to promote the movie.

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Speaker 1: When Coding Kusama complained, they received responses like, well, she's

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Speaker 1: sexy and she's still your friend. When asked about this

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Speaker 1: whole thing, Kausama said, and those conversations, I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we are seeing either we made a movie that they

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Speaker 1: see completely differently or what's in front of them is

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Speaker 1: something they don't want to see. And at the time

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Speaker 1: it was painful, but now I'm realizing this is evident

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Speaker 1: of the world at large. The Marching team was going

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Speaker 1: for a male audience that the creators had not made

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Speaker 1: the movie for, and that they they outright dismissed the

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Speaker 1: wants are even intelligence of the intended young female audience,

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Speaker 1: an audience which the sexist marketing of course turned away

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Speaker 1: because like me, they solved this marketing like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: isn't for me, even though it was right. Reviews dismissed

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Speaker 1: the movie as something to disappoint board horny boys or

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Speaker 1: quote cheap, trashy exportative vehicle for the hot girl from Transformers.

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Speaker 1: That's how Cody described it. Roger Ebert, who gave it

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Speaker 1: an overall favorable review, described it as essentially quote Twilight

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Speaker 1: for boys, which is still part of the problem because Twilight,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're meant to ogle, right, Empire. There's also

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Speaker 1: this level weirdness too. The two are not to say,

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Speaker 1: like that she hates men and this vampire loves this

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Speaker 1: girl like as my hates man, but she's dismissive of men,

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Speaker 1: okay whatever. So again, on top of some really misguided marketing,

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Speaker 1: As we've discussed before, the horror genre has a long

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Speaker 1: history of putting women, and especially young women and specific boxes.

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Speaker 1: So like the Madonna Whore essentially rolls Jennifer a needy

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Speaker 1: play up in the very mocking way. But of course

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Speaker 1: this is not fit those boxes specifically, they were going

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Speaker 1: outside of that, and horror movies have been and are

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Speaker 1: typically generally aimed towards male audiences, though there's some amazing

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Speaker 1: women in the mix. Making Fox herself was seen as

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Speaker 1: a sexual object, which is one of the reasons she

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Speaker 1: was cast. But again people missed the point. Yes, they

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Speaker 1: were overly stating, look how sexy she is, but also

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Speaker 1: like understating, like she's only says because she's gonna eat you, essentially,

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Speaker 1: so people were very ready to dismiss her in the

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Speaker 1: whole movie altogether. Both Fox and Cody inspired a lot

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Speaker 1: of vitriol online, and they've spoken about how eager people

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Speaker 1: seemed to be to tear down women who had experienced

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Speaker 1: a quick rise on fame um and trashing engine of

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Speaker 1: her body was a part of that, which is actually

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Speaker 1: not true because Megan Fox have been around. She was

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Speaker 1: twenty three when she filmed this. She started acting at sixteen,

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Speaker 1: but she was immediately put in as the hot main girl,

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Speaker 1: which has been her stereotype character throughout her life, which

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Speaker 1: is part of the problem. Whatever, and then again with

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Speaker 1: Diablo Cody, she had success, doesn't mean she's not been

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Speaker 1: working out a people. Yeah, it was quick in that

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Speaker 1: is a very heavy quotes. They just suddenly realized them,

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Speaker 1: essentially exactly. And it goes back to our fears around

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Speaker 1: ambitious women, women who don't fit into gingered boxes and

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Speaker 1: the limited amount of space success and chances are allowed

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Speaker 1: them as a society. And yeah, I think it's really

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Speaker 1: interesting because yeah, again, I mean, the cipher is not ugly. Yes,

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Speaker 1: she is played down, she doesn't have as much makeup,

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Speaker 1: she doesn't wear the clothes. But I'm like, in what

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Speaker 1: world is she not hot? I was? I mean, I

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Speaker 1: just guess I shouldn't have been shocked, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of reviews would be like, basically they made her look

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Speaker 1: ugly and now I don't even get to see her boobs.

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Speaker 1: This was an actual review, not like somebody online but

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Speaker 1: like a publication wrote this, like I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: see boobs. Yeah, there was really no nudity in the

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Speaker 1: entire thing. Sorry. Yeah. And as part of this, I

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Speaker 1: reread the letters some of Michael Bays of Transformers and Games.

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Speaker 1: You didn't know some of his regular crew members write

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Speaker 1: about Megan Fox that he published on his website, and

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Speaker 1: I don't know her, but that letter was sexist. That

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Speaker 1: was like, wow, he was so angry about anything she said,

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Speaker 1: dismissive and the fact that she couldn't go beyond certain roles.

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting, and this is a whole commentary about

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Speaker 1: that era and sexualization of the young famous girls and starlets. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: it's that she talks about it today and says, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've been through a lot of the hashtags to stuff

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Speaker 1: and and I've been through some things and and taken

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Speaker 1: back like she's like I was. I was young and

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Speaker 1: immature and I shouldn't have said things, and like, why

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Speaker 1: are you taking the blame? Because she's still in that

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Speaker 1: mindset that she is the reason. She is taking on

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Speaker 1: the blame to herself, and she is like, but mine

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Speaker 1: wasn't as bad as so, and so that whole narrative.

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Speaker 1: It's really interesting to see someone who you think and

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Speaker 1: have been told it is such a snob and it's

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Speaker 1: such a standoffish woman and and it's so all these things.

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Speaker 1: And then you realized, man, that insecurity is raging. And

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Speaker 1: we know because we saw the sexist commentary. We saw

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Speaker 1: it was in print, and her going what essentially like, okay, fine,

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Speaker 1: I guess that's me type of thing and playing those

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Speaker 1: parts or being told that she's that's the only part

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Speaker 1: that she can play, and then still to this day

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Speaker 1: kind of like, well, I did this wrong too, And

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Speaker 1: not that that's not a bad thing to take responsibility,

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Speaker 1: but it goes beyond just taking responsibility and excusing the accusers.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, Megan Fox, who had been an icon

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Speaker 1: for a moment, you know, relegating to that, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like, yeah, that was bad. It still is obviously, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about that more later. But um,

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Speaker 1: like I said earlier, she hasn't been She hasn't talked

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Speaker 1: about this movie a lot until recently, and people have

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Speaker 1: asked because a lot of the reasons that, as you said, Samantha,

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Speaker 1: all these articles and it wasn't even the ten year anniversary.

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Speaker 1: It was before that people were like, wow, you know,

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Speaker 1: Jennifer's body was so ahead of his time, he would

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Speaker 1: kill it now, and all this stuff that has sparked

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Speaker 1: all these conversations around me too. And to hear Megan

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Speaker 1: Fox talk about it, and when you hear her talk

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Speaker 1: about it, you are like, this is really upsetting because

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Speaker 1: I recognize these things too. But it's like we are

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Speaker 1: dismissing kind of the bigger problem, or not blaming the

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Speaker 1: people who should be blamed perhaps or get more of

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Speaker 1: the blame. But anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. We

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Speaker 1: are going to talk about that. So when asked about

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Speaker 1: the movie's cult status, especially the feminist cult movie status

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Speaker 1: of it during the time of Me Too and when

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Speaker 1: I was reading through this, it seemed to particularly resonate

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Speaker 1: during the cabinet hearings, especially when Dr Ford said, like

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Speaker 1: I can all I can't forget the laughter, and when

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Speaker 1: in the sacrifice scene in this movie they're laughing at

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Speaker 1: her as they kill her. A lot of people drew

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Speaker 1: that parallel. Cody said that for those of us who

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Speaker 1: have been alive, it's like maybe on a Zitegey Sea level,

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Speaker 1: it's timely, but it's a tale as old as time,

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Speaker 1: and going on to say I could have made more

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Speaker 1: movies like Jennifer's Body people had actually gone for a

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Speaker 1: lot of reasons. This isn't a real shame, Cody said

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Speaker 1: of the project to write a kind of feminist horror

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Speaker 1: movie with a vintage vibe was fantasy for me, and

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Speaker 1: because Ima said from the outside, I always felt like

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Speaker 1: this is a horror movie about toxic friendships between girls,

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Speaker 1: and on a larger scale, it's about how these alliances

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Speaker 1: between girls gets distorted and corrupted by the patriarchy, and

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Speaker 1: that part of the problem with an imbounced power structure

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Speaker 1: like a patriarchy is that women participate in it, and

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Speaker 1: so it's important to have that conversation. There's so many

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Speaker 1: quotes from the both of them, I could keep reading.

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Speaker 1: But here's another one. I knew I was making a

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Speaker 1: movie about girls. I knew, and I wasn't making them

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Speaker 1: for anyone's sort of royalistic pleasure. I was actually wanting

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Speaker 1: people to kind of confront the beauty and the ugliness

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Speaker 1: of girls at this age, right, Yeah, yeah. It was

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Speaker 1: the whole thing, like I don't know why, but I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, I knew someone liked Jennifer in my life,

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Speaker 1: not to that extent, but the whole gas lighting of

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Speaker 1: you know, oh, you're not as pretty as this, but

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Speaker 1: you're doing great, or you're so cute, but you know

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Speaker 1: if you did this type of being, uh definitely had

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Speaker 1: that level. Quickly got rid of them before I think

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Speaker 1: high school. It was like, I'm not about that life,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, you know those people so like, Wow. But

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Speaker 1: then the build up of this is not about her,

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Speaker 1: It's about her trying to make it in a world

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Speaker 1: that is really, really misogynistic. Again part of the movie.

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Speaker 1: I loved it. A lot of the New York takes

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Speaker 1: have said, essentially, this movie was ahead of its time.

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Speaker 1: I guess me too, I'm ahead of my time, knew.

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Speaker 1: In the words of Kusama, the movie hasn't changed. They

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Speaker 1: made the movie they wanted to, which means audiences and

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Speaker 1: perceptions have changed as well. About time. About time, Well,

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Speaker 1: there's so many themes to go over when it comes

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Speaker 1: to this movie. People y'all have written so so so

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Speaker 1: much about it, but perhaps the most obvious one comes

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Speaker 1: from the title alone, Jennifer's body, objectification of women, sexualization

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Speaker 1: of women. So when you think about Jennifer and Megan Fox, like,

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Speaker 1: to me, it does really work on like because we

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Speaker 1: know what happened to her and kind of how she

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Speaker 1: was cast, and then you have her playing this role

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Speaker 1: as just by this band in particular, but by a

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Speaker 1: lot of like dudes in the movie, just an object

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Speaker 1: to be thrown away, to be used, and that when

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Speaker 1: she this possession happens, when the sacrifice goes wrong, she

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Speaker 1: does become just this like body that a demon is using,

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Speaker 1: like how people mainly see her. And I thought that

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Speaker 1: was a really interesting way to turn that kind of conversation, because,

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Speaker 1: as we've said, horror movies are a great reflection for

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Speaker 1: what we are afraid of. And I mean, on this

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Speaker 1: show you've heard of time and time again afraid of

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Speaker 1: women's sexuality, especially young women's sexuality. But ultimately, who's the

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Speaker 1: one who's doing the damage. It's usually the men who

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Speaker 1: are attacking or raping or using this person. And so

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00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 1: when you flip it, when you actually make her the

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Speaker 1: like dangerous body and not like the object and she's

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Speaker 1: disemboweling men, it's just an interesting way to kind of

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Speaker 1: flip that and think about the way we talk about

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Speaker 1: how young women are so dangerous and how men can't

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Speaker 1: resist them and how it's their fault or what if

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Speaker 1: she actually was something dangerous that I can kill you

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Speaker 1: for objectifying her. Yeah, And so I like thinking about

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Speaker 1: it too, of like her body getting revenge. It's never specific.

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Speaker 1: I know, we talked about it in the Succubus episode

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Speaker 1: Succubis Succupied. Do you usually attack men? But it's never

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Speaker 1: really specifies that she's one of those, but she clearly

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Speaker 1: because there are times when she's like fighting, back, biting, needy,

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Speaker 1: but she clearly goes after men and and particularly men

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Speaker 1: who are either interested in her or needy, which is yes,

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Speaker 1: we will talk about that a bit later, right, and

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Speaker 1: kind of this, you know, if you want to read

425
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: it that way, like the patriarchy whole, the people who

426
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 1: just saw her as an object and we were just

427
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: going to throw her away, those are the people she's

428
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: gonna eat or on the he was just in the

429
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: wrong place, wrong time. Yeah, yeah, he was the person

430
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: that died first, as she killed first everybody. But by

431
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 1: the way, see this go wash it. It's on New

432
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: Billy fun but it's fun. Yes, yeah. And I think

433
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: the scene that we were talking about, the virgin sacrifice scene,

434
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: that scene is really upsetting and it kind of comes

435
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: later on in the movie like you know something happened,

436
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: and you know something that wrong, and it is painted

437
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: in a way where you're supposed to think perhaps it

438
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: was a sexual assault, but you don't know until later.

439
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: But I mean, even like the violent parts until them

440
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: is pretty camp, but that part is to me very

441
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: upsetting and it does have this whole vibe of like

442
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 1: this band is the band members all dudes are content

443
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 1: for using this young woman's pain and body for their success.

444
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 1: And throughout the movie it's kind of a trigger. Uh

445
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 1: this song that keeps playing and the song is like

446
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: about stalking a woman. It's like kinda oh, yeah, we've

447
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 1: all heard songs like this, and then you find out

448
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: all the guys behind that are actually creeps. Wait what right? Yeah,

449
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: so that just how callously they killed her and they

450
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: laughed and they sang during it, just so they could

451
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 1: become like an indie, a big indie band. And Megan

452
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 1: Fox said of this sacrifice scene. For me, that scene

453
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: represented my relationship with the movie studios at the time,

454
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: the studio executives and directors, and just Hollywood in general,

455
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: because on an almost daily basis, I felt like I

456
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 1: was being sacrificed for their gain and almost no concern

457
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: for my physical well being, instrumental or emotional well being.

458
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: That never is a question when you're a woman in Hollywood.

459
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: Whatever they need to do to me or put me through,

460
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: they were going to do it as long as I

461
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: gotham what they needed. So in that moment, I think

462
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: it was a very visceral, very powerful, almost cathartic experience

463
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: because I was able to let out everything that I

464
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: was trying to keep in and not be vulnerable and

465
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: play tough and fight it. I could just surrender to

466
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 1: it and cry and wilt and it was okay. Yeah,

467
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: And she again, we talked about this just a minute ago.

468
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 1: She also said she hasn't shared some me two experiences

469
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: because she feels like she isn't a quote sympathetic victim.

470
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: And it's okay because we're feminists, But am I accepted

471
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 1: by feminist because I never felt like I was. I

472
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: was the one woman where it was okay to be

473
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: feminist and be like, yeah, but not her. She's stupid

474
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 1: and she's selfish and she's a dump and we don't

475
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: like her. She deserves that because she said this or

476
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: did this, and yeah, I think that's She's not wrong.

477
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: I think for the longest time people had made her

478
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: such a villain in that network, in that whole industry,

479
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 1: and we've seen that time and time again between Britney Spears,

480
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: how we sexualized women and penalized women for being sexual

481
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: and especially if they're loud about it, and especially if

482
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: they're very attractive on top of that, and then you think, oh,

483
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: and because they're sexualized, they are more successful than some

484
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: and because they're more successful, they're like, this is not

485
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: they didn't earn that. It's such a whole level, and

486
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: then going through any type of mistreatment like that they

487
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: think it's earned is such a gross, gross narrative. Yeah,

488
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's one of the things that she

489
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: touches on. And just like that quote that I feel

490
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: like is in this movie where you have this patriarchal

491
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: system that we're all participating in on some level, and

492
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: it's turning women against women instead of against men. So

493
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us have experienced that jealousy

494
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 1: at the very least of someone we see is very

495
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: beautiful and they're getting all of their well, we feel

496
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: like they're getting more opportunities because they're very beautiful, and

497
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 1: that's what our society values in women, and we get

498
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: angry at that because we don't feel like we can

499
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: compete or that they're like playing along. But it's not

500
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 1: ultimately their fault. That is the truth that right now.

501
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: That is a lot of the way it's been easiest

502
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 1: for women to get ahead is if you played on

503
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 1: your beauty. And I think what we're really mad at

504
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: is the lack of control around that and the system

505
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: that we feel like it's punishing us and that we

506
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 1: can't control. But that's in this movie too. And then

507
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: also the whole sympathetic victim thing um, which we've talked

508
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: about that that is also at play where you as

509
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: they're killing her, um, they are all these other questions

510
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: of like, well, she was wearing this and then she

511
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: was drinking this and doing all this, and you're like,

512
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: but it doesn't matter, like this person, But we hear

513
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: those things in our real world all the time constantly.

514
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: But yes, yes, sexualization is a big part of this movie.

515
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: I do feel like unfortunately a lot of people misinterpreted

516
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: it when it first came out. But yeah, the kind

517
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: of punishment for what she was wearing, how she looks,

518
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: and going back to that idea of like, if if

519
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: we are so scared of of women's sexuality, why not

520
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: weaponize it as a woman to use it for revenge

521
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: if you get possessed by a demon like you know, yeah,

522
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: we are not to My only thing is she never

523
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: goes after the band. I know. I think they saved it.

524
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: I think they saved it for her, for for Needy,

525
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: but I still was like, but I want her to

526
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: me too. And I think that was actually one of

527
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: the points though, is that I could be totally wrong

528
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:35,719
Speaker 1: about this, but I felt like they were saying, you know,

529
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: she's just attacking everybody, every man. She's mad at this,

530
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: like it doesn't matter anybody who's objectified her um or

531
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: I think getting in a way of her. Needy. However,

532
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: you read their relationship, whereas Needy was like, no, I'm

533
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: going after this band, So people kind of compared it

534
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: to like it feels wrong to say hero perhaps, but

535
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: she she kind of was being more focused on who

536
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: did wrong and punishing wrong the actual people at the

537
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: bottom of this as opposed to Jennifer, because I mean,

538
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: you know that's I mean, we're getting into big conversations

539
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: for this movie, but these dudes she killed may not

540
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: as specifically participated, like misogyny and patriarchy hurts everybody. I

541
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: guess what I'm trying to say, Well, I mean it

542
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: could be I guess where they if we're talking about

543
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: the fact that women want to blame each other. So

544
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: she's going after Needy and then things around Needy, and

545
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: so she's kind of purposely punishing Needy, blaming her for

546
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: her not liking who she is. Essentially in her mind

547
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: like you're not accepting me because I told you the truth,

548
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: and now you're doing this, I'm gonna gaslight you and

549
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: then turn everyone against you instead of focusing on who

550
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: really again, as desided that, Yeah, but still I wanted

551
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: her to go eat one of them. I know, and

552
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 1: I've only seen it twice and I had been a

553
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: minute since I've seen it when I was researching for this,

554
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: and I kept it. I couldn't remember. I was like,

555
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: I thought, why is she not going for the band?

556
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: Took bad? Right? I mean, yeah, I really wanted her too.

557
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: He was right, they were right there. They were right there. Yeah. Yeah,

558
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: And a lot of the themes in here too are like, yeah,

559
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: the trauma and violence that a lot of people, but

560
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,479
Speaker 1: especially women or other marginalized groups are familiar with. So

561
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: like when you do learn what happens to Jennifer, she

562
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: had the memory where she like asked the band members

563
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: if they're rapist and she's a really big fan, Like

564
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: she's a really big fan of them, and she's trying

565
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: to like get get a touch from them or like

566
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: attention from them, and then they just brutalize her, specifically

567
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: because she is a woman, and specifically because she's a

568
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: woman they think is a virgin. And yeah, for most

569
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: of the movie we Are Meant To, I think that

570
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: a sexual assault happened. And as I said, a lot

571
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 1: of boll have written about like how the band is

572
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: laughing as they as Jennifer like pleads with them for

573
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: mercy before they kill her from Constants Gradies article about

574
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: over at Box about the movie Jennifer's pain is funny

575
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: to these men. For them, it's all lark, but for

576
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: her it's a moment of trauma that it's going to

577
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: change her forever. And I think a lot of trauma

578
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: people who have gone through trauma can relate to that.

579
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: And that was something I remember struggling with for a

580
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: long time where I couldn't decide if it would hurt more,

581
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: if somebody would traumatized me like didn't remember or it

582
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,479
Speaker 1: wasn't a big deal to them, or if it was

583
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: And like just that question can really hang on you.

584
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: And yeah, the band profits from her pain and until

585
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: they end, they get off without any consequences. In fact,

586
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: they're loved and praised as heroes in the community and

587
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: for something pretty ridiculous as well. I mean to sacrifice

588
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: somebody for indie band fame. I don't want to dismiss

589
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: anybody who's made it as an indie band, but it

590
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: does seem like, really, man, you couldn't see seen any

591
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: other way you had to kill this person. They said

592
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: they couldn't. They literally were like, there's only two ways,

593
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: and neither one of them was going to be like

594
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: the way because it's past that prime. Because everybody was

595
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: in the band, the idea that you can easily find

596
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: one just like smack someone just by going down the street.

597
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: You about an indie van, like how many women? How

598
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: many young girls were like, I'm dating a dude from

599
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: the band, like it's inevitable. Definitely dated a due from

600
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: an email band right there. Oh did you? Yeah? I did.

601
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: He wrote a song about me good ish No, but

602
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: it wasn't mean about you. Another email band wrote a

603
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: song about the fact of how he broke up with me.

604
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: Oh whoa you gotta you got? I gotta hear these songs.

605
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: That was bad. So one of the songs it wasn't

606
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: necessarily about me, but he took a line I said

607
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: to him and put it in there, and I was like,

608
00:33:51,080 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: what the hell, no, just saying just saying so you know, yeah, well,

609
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: I mean that's another idea, that's a commentary, but that's

610
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: supposed to be like the like was a parody of

611
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: this level of what the girls or what teenage girls

612
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: wanted at that point in time. That's true, ye, well,

613
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 1: and that that's interesting too, of what you said about

614
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: like being past the prime, because that's something we've talked

615
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: about with women in this industry as well. It's like,

616
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: what's your thirties, Then it's too late, like you're you

617
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: aged out. Whereas they were like, well, maybe we just

618
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: have to kill a young woman or user pain and

619
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: then we can be successful because she's completely disposable from

620
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 1: Frederick Bill Kurt advice, He writes, Jennifer's body is similarly

621
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 1: saying something quite a bit more profound than high school

622
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: as hell or hell is a teenage girl in the

623
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 1: words of Needy, which is there's no perfect victims, and

624
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: that doesn't matter a popular main girl in a blackwater town,

625
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: virginal or not drunk or not dressed, suggestively or not

626
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: shouldn't be abducted and assaulted true story, yep, yep. And

627
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: then yeah, how many people talked about just something we

628
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: kind of talked about with the patriarchal distress stress disorder recently,

629
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,320
Speaker 1: and also collective trauma. People have said, like, maybe we

630
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: can even look at the trauma of the patriarchy training

631
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: women against each other and feeling all of that as

632
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: a part of this movie. A lot of people have

633
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 1: said it's like a revenge fantasy or a rape revenge

634
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: movie in disguise, like it's got a very similar kind

635
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: of setup, but it's made by women, so it's much

636
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: less sexualized, um than those movies are in terms of

637
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: those like very traumatic scenes, which I thought was interesting.

638
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: And then we've also talked about virginity lately, you know,

639
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: and the whole mess of history of prizing that and women. Yeah, so,

640
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: so the band members are openly speculating whether Jennifer's a virgin,

641
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 1: and it turns out her sexual experience kind of safe

642
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: or as opposed to being the source of her punishment

643
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: and death like in most horror movies where it's the

644
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: virginity or being the virginal, and that means you'll survive,

645
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 1: and this one she survived even though she did becoming

646
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: because she became a demon. So Phili that has a

647
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: commentary of like, oh, you're a slut. That means you're

648
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: pretty much a demon, but you're still alive, Yes, sort

649
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: of sort of. I just thought that was interesting because

650
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: I haven't really thought about it. It is kind of

651
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: a flip again this whole movie. Like you said, it's

652
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 1: supposed to be tongue and Chee's very aware of the

653
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: horror movie tropes and it's playing on them. But that

654
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: is a twist from what we normally see in horror movies,

655
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: where the final girl is usually the one that has

656
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: not had any right And then, yeah, friendships are they're

657
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: a big part of this movie. Um and toxic and

658
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: self destructive friendships especially, I mean that's in reading the

659
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: interviews with the creators, that was what the heart of

660
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: this movie was, was their their friendship between Needy and Jennifer.

661
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: I did like catch on two how especially Needy, which

662
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: you know, the name, the nickname is pretty telling of

663
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 1: a character. It's kind of like constantly trying to stop Jennifer,

664
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: like kind of constantly trying to protect her or go

665
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: after her, and Jennifer's kind of always like just beyond

666
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: reach or whatever, which we felt very much to me,

667
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 1: like trying to hold on in the face of change

668
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,280
Speaker 1: to this friendship and especially like Needy calls some sandbox friends.

669
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: Like we said earlier, they've been friends from a young

670
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 1: age and trying to hold on to that friendship even

671
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: though it's evolving and maybe you have changed and maybe

672
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: you weren't really suited or healthy friends in the first place,

673
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: and especially not now. And I feel like we've talked

674
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: about that recently too, of kind of that moment of

675
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 1: being like, oh, you know, I've really tried to hold

676
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 1: on this friendship, but maybe yeah, this is that talks

677
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: friendship that we talked about, the abusive friendship that people

678
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,720
Speaker 1: need to get away from for sure, because there's nothing serving.

679
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: And she gas lights her constantly to an abusive level

680
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: um and guilds her into this abusive level. That's like,

681
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 1: that's not cool. Yeah, yeah, And I mean their friendship

682
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: is very very codependent, like I said, because I feel

683
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 1: like in a lot of ways, Jennifer keeps Needy around

684
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: because she's very insecure and wants that friend to make

685
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: you feel better that you can put down and you

686
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: can gas light and just sort of use in that

687
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: way like you could say, oh, please come to me

688
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 1: to do this. See this band you probably don't want

689
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: anything to do. I want you to come and do it,

690
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: and you're gonna come and do it because I'm cooler

691
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: than you or like having that sort of dynamic. And

692
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: then I mean, Needy is insecure as well. They're both

693
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 1: very they're very core, depend on each other. They need

694
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: each other for different reasons, and despite their increasingly unhealthy relationship,

695
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: it is, at least from what we can see, the

696
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: most important relationship in their lives, and at the heart

697
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: of this movie. And I was thinking, and this might

698
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 1: be I get really deep, as you know, so it

699
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,839
Speaker 1: might be not what was really intended, but the whole

700
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: idea of the succubus, of like needing to feed on

701
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 1: others to survive, needing to feed on people and weakest

702
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,919
Speaker 1: when you haven't like that whole idea kinds of kinds

703
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: of sound like an insecure bullying person, like needing to

704
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: feed on others to build yourself up and putting others

705
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: down to make yourself feel better. And in that way,

706
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: like who really is the Needy one? Mm hm m

707
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: m yes that yeah, yeah, and then we couldn't not

708
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: discuss this as as we've been alluding to, several people

709
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: have done right ups on queer readings of this film. Um,

710
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: and apparently the original screenplay included a sex seeing between

711
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: Jennifer and Needy. I didn't get this, and I don't

712
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: I never verified if this is what was actually intended.

713
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: But Needy's last name is less Becky, some people less nicky,

714
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:09,919
Speaker 1: and some people were like, it's Needy Les like lesbian. Never, well,

715
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: did you actually say it the Asian character who is

716
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: always that Chope main character or a fan girl in

717
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: the background. She says, uh, Needy Les kind of implies it,

718
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: and yeah, uh huh. So this is the kind of

719
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: thing I could go into in so much depth because

720
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: people have gone into so much depth, but we will not.

721
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 1: But I mean, there are a lot of I can

722
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: definitely see the queer subjects for sure. There's a lot

723
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: of like Jennifer Bareley keeping herself from eating Needy, of

724
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: killing Needy's potential romantic interests, of Needy being really protective

725
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 1: of Jennifer, which could be read in bultiple ways. Because

726
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: I think the first time I saw it, I just

727
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: assumed it was like jealousy wanted to keep Needy all

728
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: to herself, So maybe I think I just kind of

729
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,479
Speaker 1: bypassed it. Obviously, the kiss was very obvious, and she's

730
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: really like into it, Needy is more so than Megan is.

731
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: Like you can see that Jennifer is using as a

732
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 1: controlling mechanism as where Needy is falling into it because

733
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: it's kind of like, oh my god, it's happening and

734
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: she couldn't resist. But then like the scene where she

735
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: holds her hand and the disappointment when she realizes that

736
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: she's all infatuated this guy, and that was very I

737
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: don't know, it didn't feel like sometimes this felt like text,

738
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: like the actual being of this is where I started

739
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: losing her, and this is where she starts seeing herself

740
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 1: for the first time, because this is where she's disconnecting

741
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: herself from her because she sees this infatuation, which is

742
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: different from her having sex with other guys around town,

743
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: right right. Yeah, And I'd forgotten about that as well,

744
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: but a lot of people did point out the hand

745
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: holding scene. Yeah, yeah, And and there are definitely like

746
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: quotes throughout, like, as Jennifer says, I can go both ways.

747
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 1: We can play boyfriend girlfriend like we used to the

748
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: less a gay for called it needy butch and kind

749
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: of going off what you said, Samantha. According to Cody,

750
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: it kept the kiss in the script because she wanted

751
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: to make clear that on some level, Needy was in

752
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: love with Jennifer. So now she says she probably wouldn't

753
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: have to include it because audience can pick up on

754
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: queer subtext without her quote dropping an amble on them.

755
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: So she did intend for this reading. And I will

756
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: say what it feels like the queer bating is I

757
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: feel the awkwardness of it all. You're like, oh god, yeah,

758
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: this is just they just threw it in there because

759
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 1: they want to be like, look, two girls kissing, but

760
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: as where this one felt like, okay, that was actually

761
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: really sexy and passionate. What just you know, like it

762
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: felt honest in that. So good on the actresses for

763
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 1: doing that, because it felt like I was like, oh damn,

764
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: oh damn. Okay, yeah, yeah it was because I didn't

765
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: know that was in there, which I say because apparently

766
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 1: that was a huge deal when it first came out

767
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: and I remember when I was watching it being surprised,

768
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 1: but then like, okay, yeah, speaks sense. I mean, I

769
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: think I don't want to be like everyone. But what

770
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: I that's greg if I would have those moments of

771
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 1: like sexual tension between friends where were just kind of

772
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 1: like what is this moment and what are these feelings?

773
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: And I'm not really sure what they are? And I think,

774
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 1: um many have written about how this is um by representation.

775
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 1: This is a case of by representation and Jennifer kind

776
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: of being by and I guess, I guess I never

777
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: really picked up on, like, you know, when the goth

778
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: Emo kids, she kills him because well it seems like

779
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: she kills him because Needy was like he's cool, don't

780
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 1: you mean, like okay? And then Chip of course has

781
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 1: got to go. It's gotta go. I know. As we've

782
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: discussed about many times worse queer baiting, some people had

783
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: problems with the saying this was exactly what this is

784
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: is like atuitous again for the male gaze essentially, But

785
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 1: if we're looking at this movie as what we're saying,

786
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: tongue in cheek parody, they may have done that in

787
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: that aspect of good over yourself because the acting was

788
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: so good that it didn't feel that way. So it's

789
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: another again slap in the face of like, no, this

790
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: is it for you. This is for the women who

791
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: felt this tension. This is for the women that's like, wait,

792
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: am I have an awakening moment of realizing I too

793
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 1: am attracted to this woman? Like that's what it was

794
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: for more so than that. So but I can absolutely

795
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: see if it's the context of the way it was marketed.

796
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: If that's what you know, then yes, it's definitely good

797
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: to it is and just over the top like, oh,

798
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 1: come on, this is just cheap entertainment for men to

799
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: you know, do bad things too. Well. Yeah, and I

800
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: think that was so key and a lot of what

801
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: like Cody has written about was like it was women

802
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,919
Speaker 1: making it and it was for women. And I also

803
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: thought the scene was really well acted and I thought

804
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: it was really powerful because I did buy it. I

805
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: was like, even if they have very unhealthy relationship, I

806
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 1: buy that they care about each other and on some

807
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: level of each other, and it does feel like real

808
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 1: um the emotion there. But Cody said like, if a

809
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: van had been doing this, it wouldn't have worked like

810
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: it would have been different. And yeah, when it first

811
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: came out, because of those the terrible marketing behind it,

812
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: people did say that it was exportative. It was a

813
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: huge deal. It was like in write ups or people

814
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: were like, oh, it's a gratuitous lesbian makeout session. That's

815
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: from Salon. I believe it was a woman who wrote

816
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: that a cheap attempt to titillate the audience, particularly when

817
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 1: as no real context or reason for being It doesn't

818
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: matter if there's a man or woman behind the camera.

819
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: That's from that same review. So it does feel like,

820
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe people were just primed to misunderstand

821
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: it for a lot of reasons or are I don't

822
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 1: know if that's the correct way to say it, but

823
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: going in expecting something completely different and being so used

824
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 1: to horror movies do week that kind of thing, right,

825
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: I don't know. Again, that marketing that, yeah, it is bad.

826
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: And so I know, like one of the posters, I

827
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: will in those articles that they showed as an example

828
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: of what the marketing team was doing. If I hadn't

829
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: seen that, I've never seen it until this week when

830
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: we were researching stuff, I would not have watched it either.

831
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, because it felt like it's going to

832
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: be some Jennifer having a bunch of sex and being

833
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: ogled a lot. Right, it's a direct commentary on that,

834
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 1: like right, but yeah, if you haven't seen the poster listeners,

835
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: it's like, I think you're talking about where she's sitting

836
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: in the desk and her legs are like spread and

837
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 1: cleavage is perfectly and she's like partially open mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

838
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: it's it's really bad news. And that is a part

839
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: of this whole conversation as well. It's kind of like

840
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: what they were commenting on ended up hurting them, hurting

841
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: them and hurting the movie too. I am glad it

842
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: is getting some of the attention I feel like it

843
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: deserves and people are really in love with it and

844
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: writing about it and all this stuff. But it is,

845
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: like Cody said, like upsetting because if it had caught on,

846
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: then other movies could have been made, and right, that

847
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: is frustrating, so frustrating. Clearly, we're we're fans, highly recommend

848
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: you have and as we like to say, fall is coming,

849
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: meaning it is Halloween season coming soon, so more movies

850
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Speaker 1: like please please, yes, if you have any suggestions for

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00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: those movies that we should focus on these emails. You

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00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: can reach u at Stephanie and mom Stuff that I

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00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 1: Hurt mea dot com. You can find us on Twitter

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00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram. And Stuff I've

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Speaker 1: Never Told You. Thanks, It's always to our super producer Christina,

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00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 1: one of the best. Yes, and thanks to you for

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00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: listening Stuff I've Never told you. Protection of my Heart

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00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: Radio from more Podcast From my Heart Radio is that

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00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: I heard you app Apple Podcast already listen to your

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00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 1: favorite