1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia may be best known for its vast supply 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: of oil, but outside of that industry, tourism is one 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: of the kingdom's biggest businesses. Now, we're not talking about 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: sun and sand, even though they do have plenty of 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: those things. As the home of Mecca, the kingdom is 6 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: the destination for the annual Hajj pilgrimage that attracts more 7 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: than two million Muslims a year. That, along with other 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: Muslim pilgrimages throughout the year, have been driving growth in 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: tourism with a building boom to match. Today on Benchmark, 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: we'll talk with a colleague who will share his recent 11 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: experience there, and we'll discuss why religious tourism is becoming 12 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: an increasingly important part of the Saudi economy. I'm Scott Landman, 13 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: an economics editor with Bloomberg in Washington. My co host 14 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: Dan Moss is traveling this week. Now, you may have 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: heard some new about Saudi Arabia lately. It's letting women 16 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: get driver's licenses for the first time. We'll get to 17 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: that later with Donna Abu Nasser, a Bloomberg reporter who 18 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: covers the Middle Eastern economy and governments, but first, I'd 19 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: like to bring in Siraj Dtu. He's an editor for 20 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com based in London. He participated in the 21 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: Hajj in late August, making the pilgrimage to Mecca with 22 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: his wife and is here to talk about his experience 23 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: and how Hajj has become an economy unto itself. Siraj, 24 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: thanks for joining us, Thanks for having me So, Siraj, 25 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: I don't know much about Hajj except I've seen it 26 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: on TV people circling the Kabba, heard about some other 27 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: things associated with it. Can you give us a little 28 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: background on Hajj, what it means, why people do it, 29 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: and why it's such a central part of Islam. Sure. So. 30 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,279 Speaker 1: Hodge is one of the five main pillars in Islam, 31 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: and it's reference in the Kuran, and most Mussims typically 32 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: believe that they have to perform the pilgrimage at least 33 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: once in their lifetime as long as they can afford it. 34 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: And one of the moments during huge as you've mentioned, 35 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 1: it's like typically captured on camera more than anything else 36 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: is is the taff and as you said, that's when 37 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: Mussims circumambulate the carver seven times, and that's an essential part. 38 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: And the reason that I think it's shown on cameras 39 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: so often is pretty obvious. It's one of the moments 40 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: that's got the most easily explained symbolism. The cover is 41 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: it's been destroyed and rebuilt countless times, but it's still 42 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: believed to be the house of God. And that's the 43 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: direction that Muslims praying wherever they are in the world. 44 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: And so whenever Mussim's gone holiday and I'll take a 45 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: compass with them so they know which way Mecca is, 46 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: they know which which direction they should pray in. There 47 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: are lots of other elements too, So pilgrims walk between 48 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 1: two mountains, Suffer and Marrowa seven times. Now. The big 49 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: difference now is that the mountains don't exist anymore. There 50 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: are little replicas there, and actually pilgrim's walk inside and 51 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: the comfort of air conditioning, it's not so much the 52 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: same as it was before. Pilgrims also spend time near 53 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: Mount Arfa and Reflection of Garden. They sleep on stones 54 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: essentially in Modelifa. They spend some time in Mina and 55 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: there's a lot that gets packed into just a few days. Well, 56 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: it does sound really remarkable. Can you just tell us 57 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: a little bit about your experience and kind of the 58 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: size and scope of what you witness and what's happening there. Sure. 59 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: So for a lot of pilgrims, it begins in Medina. 60 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: It's exciting. Not everyone goes to Medina, but most people 61 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: try to because it's where the prophet used to live, 62 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: It's where the Prophet's mosque is. One of the other 63 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: reasons it's exciting is that there are so many Muslims 64 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: all in one place, and there's this amazing sense of unity. 65 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: You got Muslims from around the world, and when you 66 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: go and pray at the property mosque, you meet people 67 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: from and I'm just giving an example of the people 68 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: I met from Somalia, from India, from uh I think. 69 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: I think I met people from at different half different 70 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: countries in Africa, from Iran and Iraq, Afghanistan, and you 71 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: just become one big community. And that's just Medina. And 72 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: while Medina gets busy, Marca, where the carbra Is, gets packed. 73 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: This year, about two and a half million Muslims took 74 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: part in Hudge, and about one point seven five million 75 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: of them came from outside the country and one of 76 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: the most amazing things I learned when I was there 77 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: is that there are some areas in Mecca which are 78 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: pretty much just set up for the Hudge period. So, 79 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: for example, the group that I went with when I 80 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: was there, we didn't stay in a hotel. We stayed 81 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: in a big apartment block in Azizia, which is a 82 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: district not too far away from the Carba. What I 83 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: learned is that the rest of the year, when the 84 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: pilgrims aren't there for Hudge, the building is just empty. 85 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: And that's actually the case for a lot of the 86 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: buildings in that area. The economy in that area is 87 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: really just geared up for Pilgrims. And here's another example 88 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: of the scale of the pilgrimage. I typically try to 89 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: go out to the carb in the evenings because during 90 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: the daytime it was so hot it's kind of burning. 91 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: And one day, you know, we pray it the cover 92 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: for a few hours and then we've got to eat 93 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: and we've got a huge selection. What do we want 94 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: to eat. We've got five guys Halal, five guys which 95 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: we don't have in London. We've got huge hotels around 96 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: there too. One day we went to eat and came 97 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: back after eating in the whole complex in the carvers, 98 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: the Grand Mosque was totally full, and the pilgrims are 99 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 1: kind of spilling out into the streets and the prayers 100 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: since she stretched out about kilometer up the road, it's 101 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: a huge number of people trying to just get to 102 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: the carver and pray all, you know, for that one prayer. 103 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: It does truly sound like a unbelievably huge event with 104 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: you know, you can only begin to imagine the number 105 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: of ball you start to talk a little bit about 106 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: the economic scale of what's going on here. Can you 107 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: just talk a little bit about how this has become 108 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,799 Speaker 1: such a big business and you know there are people 109 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: have been coming there for generations and centuries. Why is 110 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: there such a building boom now to accommodate people? Like 111 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: you said, this is big business for Saudi So, speaking 112 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: ahead of this year's pilgrimage, the head of Mecca's Chamber 113 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: of Commerce and Industry said he expected pilgrims to spend 114 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: between twenty billion reals during hug. That's around five and 115 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: a half to six and a half billion dollars. It's 116 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: a lot of money. The Saudis are also giving this 117 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: income stry more of a deliberate purch so they're spending 118 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: about eighty billion dollars on renovating Macca. That includes expanding 119 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,799 Speaker 1: the complex of the Grand Mosque and trying to renovate 120 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: the surrounding areas to One of the things that happened 121 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: in recent years is no pilgrim can get a visa 122 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: for hudge without coming through a tour group, and equally 123 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: the tour groups have to make sure they arrange accommodation. 124 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: Part of that stand to safety. They don't want people 125 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: sleeping the streets, especially when it gets so hot. But 126 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: it helps revenue too, and so there's been a very obvious, 127 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: fierce battle to construct new hotels. Let me give you 128 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: one example, there are about sixty hotel rooms in Mecca. 129 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: By the following year it jumped up by fifty five. 130 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: And beyond the more obvious revenue streams, there's another benefit. 131 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: Foreigners can't own land, and so any hotelier has to 132 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: work with local Saudi developers. And when you go for 133 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: HUDG two, you obviously have different elements that you're paying for. 134 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: You're you're paying for your flights, you're paying for the 135 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: accommodation in all the different places you're staying in. But 136 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: when you go, you also bring back gifts. Some people 137 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: spend thousands and thousands of pounds and dollars just on 138 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: gifts to take back for family. They take back prayer beats, 139 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: prayer mats, anything they can get their hands on, really 140 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: kind of like the longer Arabic clothes. And when people 141 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: come back, you know that there's there's somewhat of a 142 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: there's somewhat of an except aation that you're going to 143 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: bring something back for your family. If you don't, people 144 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: are wondering, you know, have you really gone for Hudge. 145 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: You've gone there and you thought about your relationship with 146 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: God and how you've tried to detach from this world, 147 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: and then you kind of not brought anything back and 148 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: people start, you know, asking questions, where where's my gifts? 149 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: And you don't want to be that person who has 150 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: not come back with a gift, even if it's something small. 151 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: I think my wife and I it was it was 152 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: an expensive trip, so we spent about seven thousand pounds 153 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: for both of us to go there, and I think 154 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: we tried to keep our gifts to a minimum about 155 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: five pounds each. But some people do spurn, like I said, 156 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of pounds just bring back gifts of 157 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: their family. Are these kind of a local things that 158 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: are made there? Are they sort of trinkets that come 159 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: are made in China. It's it's a mix, I think 160 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: from what I saw a lot of the things that 161 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 1: were made were from partly downe from partly made in China, 162 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: partly made in Turkey. A lot of the prayer mats 163 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: actually they have. It's it's a bit weird to say 164 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: something's a revolutionary prayer mat, but these the kind of 165 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: things that we saw. So for example, when you're at 166 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: the Carba and the Grand Mosque, the whole floor is 167 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: made of marble, which can be quite tough on your 168 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: knees for the whole time. But there was one prayer 169 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: map that we bought for our time there and essentially 170 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: folds up so when you when you pray, you can 171 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: fold it down and pray, and when you're not praying, 172 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: you can fold up and you can lean back against 173 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: it and it kind of becomes a chair. And it's 174 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: like small things like this that you know, people will 175 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: pay easy money for some money, you know, I think 176 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: that was that cost us about ten pounds, but it 177 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: felt totally worth it when you were then you definitely 178 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: have a captive audience there. Definitely also sounds like a 179 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: real global event. And let's talk about the economy some more. 180 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: There I want to bring in Donna Abu Naser. Donna 181 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: is a reporter based in Beirut covering Middle Eastern economies 182 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: and governments, but she's very familiar with Saudi Arabia. She 183 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,719 Speaker 1: started covering the country for the Associated Press in two 184 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: thousand two and opened a piece first bureau in the 185 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: nation in Riad in two thousand eight. Donna, thanks for 186 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: returning to the podcast today. Pleasure to be here. Donna, 187 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: can you tell us how tourism and especially Islamic tourism 188 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: fits into the overall Saudi economy and just how they're 189 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: trying to wean their dependence off of oil there well, 190 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: tourism has been earmarked by the government as a major 191 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: driver for growth in a plan if you recall, to 192 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 1: diversify the economy. It was rolled out last year. It's 193 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: called Vision twenty thirty and um it's coming at the 194 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: time when crewit prices are about half their peak. That 195 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: ended more than a decade of prosperity. So religious tourism, 196 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: both the main one Hush that Sia talked about and Dombra, 197 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: which is a lesser pick image performed throughout the year. 198 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: Our key to this. Now, the aim of the vision 199 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: is to increase the number of Hombre prams to thirty 200 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: million a year by twenty thirty. And it's important to 201 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: note here that financial benefits will not only come from 202 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: the money that the victims spend. Pilgrims like for instance, 203 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: um As more of them visit the Kingdom. More airports 204 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: and ports and hotels and roads will need to be developed, 205 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: so that means more employment and investment opportunities. So you 206 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: said thirty million tourists per year for the for the 207 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: Umbra is the goal? Yeah, by and what is it now? 208 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: I think it's about it reached about eight million in 209 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. That was after the expansion of the two 210 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: holy mosques that Si Rah talked about. So we're talking 211 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: about a real growth industry like no other. I mean, 212 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: if you're if you're going to be almost quadrupling the 213 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: number of tourists, I mean that really shows a strong 214 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: desire by the kingdom and leadership to you know, not 215 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: be so dependent on oil, like you were talking about. Now, 216 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: another thing in the news recently was that, you know, 217 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: most of us noticed the announcement that the ban on 218 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: women driving cars was going to be lifted next year. 219 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: Can you give us a sense on how that recent 220 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: decision fits into all this liberalization of the economy? Um, 221 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: of course, I mean, at first, it's the right many 222 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: women have been fighting for. But as women are are 223 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: entering the workforce in larger numbers, uh, they need to 224 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: be able to get to the office. Women spend a 225 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: big chunk of their income on drivers, something like an 226 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 1: average of five dollars a month. So this is disposable 227 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: income that will be released into the economy and it 228 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: will stay in the country as opposed to leaving it 229 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: in the form of remittances. You know, most women have 230 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: foreign drivers who send money back home. So this will 231 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: potentially help the retail sector, which has suffered a lot 232 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: in the past couple of years with the oil With 233 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: the low oil prices, there could also be a short 234 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: boost in car sales, and demand for car insurance and 235 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: loans is likely to increase. Is there a way for 236 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia to maintain its ultra conservative image and be 237 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: this destination for Muslim tourism while at the same time 238 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: opening its economy, liberalizing such cultural norms as these, and 239 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: and being less dependent on oil. Um. It's Saudi Arabia 240 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: is the birthplace of Islam. The king is the custodian 241 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: of Islam's two holiest mosques, so the Kingdom has always 242 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: been careful that it's Islamic credentials are not questioned. When 243 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: the Kingdom said it will allow women to drive, and 244 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: this has been the most dramatic move so far, and 245 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: it's a bit to open up this Saudi society. It 246 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: was important to show that the decision had the backing 247 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: of the religious establishment, and indeed many prominent clerics and 248 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: the Kingdom stopped religious body commended the order while highlighting 249 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: at the same time they need to abide by Islamic requirements. Sage, 250 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,719 Speaker 1: can you jump in here. I'm curious as to what 251 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: you saw on the ground there with you know, the 252 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: millions of Muslims that came to Saudi Arabia for Hajj. 253 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: Did this strike you as a very religious segment of 254 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: Islam or their a mix of kind of less religious 255 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: and more religious people there. I mean what would you 256 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: say you found and do you think that could be sustained, 257 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: you know, as Saudi opens up some more, I think 258 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: what you find is that there's a real mix of people. 259 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: Like I said earlier, every Mussen believes they have to 260 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: go at least once, and so they try and make 261 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: the journey once in their lifetime. Someone trying to go earlier, 262 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: someone trying to go later. But a lot of people 263 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: go because they feel they have to. Now, when you're 264 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: going around the kaba, what you hear is la la 265 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: la la la. There's no God but Allah. You hear 266 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: a lot of people reciting praises of God. But that's 267 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: because of where you are. And now outside of that conversation, 268 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: you know, you speak to people and ask people why 269 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: you here. Some people say it's because they want to 270 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: get that sense of connection with God they don't have before. 271 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: And what you what you find is that there's a 272 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: lot of people who especially those from the West. So 273 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: I came with a group from London and everyone had 274 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: very different views. Some people are a lot more traditional, 275 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: some people a more liberal. There are a lot of 276 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: people in my group, for example, we're talking about how 277 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: when you're at the Carbo. When it gets to prayer time, 278 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: all the women are kind of hush and pushed back, 279 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: and the guards and religious gods come and essentially tell 280 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: them to stand up and move back or move on 281 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: to higher floors. A lot of the men get get 282 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: angry because that's not what we see normally in our 283 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: masks back in kind of in the West, whereas a 284 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: lot of people who seem local or at least speak 285 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: Arabic kind of a siding with the religious gods. It's 286 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: a bit hard to have those conversations within the within 287 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: the Grand Mosque, But when you're outside of it and 288 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: you're just speaking to people normally, a lot of these 289 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: conversations are taking place about how the country could perhaps 290 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: change to be a little bit more westernized, or perhaps 291 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: to fit in with what we feel our values, what 292 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: we feel our Islamic values in the West. Now, when 293 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: I was looking at the Hajj statistics, I noticed the 294 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: breakdown between men and women. It looked like it was 295 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: somewhere around women in that range, but still I'm still surprised. 296 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: I thought it was a large amount of women and sarage. 297 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: You know, you you went with your wife, and it 298 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: seemed like there are many couples who go there. Would 299 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: the liberalization of say, Saudi driving rules maybe attract more women. 300 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: Is that part of the growth strategy to attract more 301 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: women in Islamic tourism in Saudi Arabia. I wouldn't be 302 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: able to speak to to that, but I mean, one 303 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: of the main reasons that I can think of immediately 304 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: that would actually stop women from going is that any 305 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: woman who's under forty has to go with a companion, 306 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: a male companion, and so there's they wouldn't get a 307 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: visa to enter the country if they don't have someone 308 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: who's a direct relationship, who's a direct relation of some kind. 309 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: So a lot of women have to go with a cousin, 310 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: or they have to go with a father or a brother. 311 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: They can't just go by themselves. And so one way 312 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: that if the Saudis really did want to bring in 313 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: more women is they could scrap that rule. Now, whether 314 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: they will do that is something to be seen. Um 315 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: When we were there, for example, you know, we would 316 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: take a lot of taxis. I don't think anybody or 317 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: any pilgrims at the very least would think of the 318 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: driving ban as affecting their religious experience so much because 319 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: no one's gonna be renting cars, and if you're going 320 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: with the tour group, the last thing you want to 321 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: be thinking about is trying to figure out the roads, 322 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: because when you are out in Saudi for hug the 323 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: roads get crazy, see and that you have no idea 324 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: which road is going to get blocked, which road is, 325 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: which bridge is going to get blocked, and which road 326 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,719 Speaker 1: you could actually drive through. When we went, for example, 327 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: we would take a kareem, which is a bit like 328 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: uber but I guess it was started in Dubai, and 329 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: we would be going, for example, from our hotel and 330 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: as easier to the carver, and sometimes we would get 331 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: to a certain tunnel that would take you right to 332 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: the carver, and only the taxis were allowed and the 333 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: kareams weren't, so I think in that respect, and I'm 334 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: not sure that the driving ban itself is actually gonna 335 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: help or liberalize who actually goes for for Hodge. All right, 336 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: one last question. Another thing I've heard about with the 337 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 1: Hajje is that a lot of people have actually died 338 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: going to it. There have been stampedes that have killed 339 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: many people. How did safety factor into your trip that's 340 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 1: actually a pretty good question. So, like I said, Mussims 341 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: believe they have to go once in their lifetime, so 342 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 1: the take whatever opportunity they can to go, and in 343 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: a lot of countries they have to wait a long 344 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: time to take Indonesia, for example, the country which has 345 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: the largest Muslim population in the world, their citizens can 346 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: wait between twelve to seventeen years on the waitlist. It's 347 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: a really long time. So when they get their chance, 348 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 1: they're going to go. And to some accept people are 349 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: aware that there's a safety risk. It's not like anyone's 350 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: hiding it. It's definitely on the news. And there's actually 351 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: a ritual that many pilgrims think that they should be 352 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: doing before they go, which is writing your will. So 353 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: for example, the night before we actually left a hide, 354 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: my wife and I sat down and we wrote our 355 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: will together. We're both twenty six and it felt very 356 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: weird to be doing that. Um but part of the 357 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: pilgrimage is actually thinking about the preparation propos process, detaching 358 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: from day life and thinking about the idea that you're 359 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: not meant to be coming back as the same person 360 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: as someone who's new, who's refreshed, like a totally different 361 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: version of yourself. And what you find is that because 362 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people have got into that state, by 363 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: the time they get there, a lot of people are 364 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: worried about the safety concerns, but at the same time 365 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: people feel a little bit more at ease and are 366 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: calmed down by that. And at no one's ever told 367 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: me that the safety issues put them off from going touch. 368 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: They're worried, sure, but that that's not stopped them. Like 369 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: you said, there's been a number of issues that have 370 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: in just recent years that have plagued the Saddis. So 371 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: two years ago, for instance, hundreds of pilgrims, many of 372 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: whom were from Iran, were crushed during a stampede and mina. 373 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: Fortunately this year when we went there weren't any similar events. 374 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: But all around during the carbar at the car but 375 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: for example, we saw people who had fainted even going 376 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: around to off when I went round to our for example, 377 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,719 Speaker 1: when and that's when you go around the carb seven times, 378 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 1: it can get quite tough. And that was me, someone 379 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: who's quite younger, consider myself fairly fit. But the deeper 380 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,719 Speaker 1: you go in, the closer you get to the car bar. 381 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: By the time you've done those seven rounds. I could 382 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:02,719 Speaker 1: hear it in myself when I was trying to speak, 383 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: I found it really tough to do so, and I 384 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: was kind of my energy had totally gone, and even 385 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: to actually catch my breath, I really had to do 386 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: that quite a lot. That event in Minna two years 387 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: ago led to a lot of frustration because families and 388 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: friends found that it wasn't a centralized system. They wanted 389 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: to find out really if their friends and family are okay, 390 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: and they didn't. They just had no way of doing that. 391 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: So now there are different groups who are encouraging pilgrims 392 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: to wear i D cards with them, and so if 393 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: anything does happen, then at least group leader is called 394 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: if anything has gone wrong. And this has kind of 395 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: summed up quite well. In the first workshop that we 396 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: had before we left, we were told you will see 397 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: people dying along the road. You don't want to be 398 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: that person who just gets buried in on mark grave 399 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: and no one knows where you are. Now, we didn't 400 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: see We didn't see anyone dying, and we did see 401 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: people fainting, and we saw people kind of being sent 402 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: to hospital. I did see people in a lot of 403 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: people in Medina who had passed away. I didn't actually 404 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: see them dying, but I saw their graves being sent 405 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: to the to the cemetery. At the same time, the 406 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: Saudis actually introduced or said they were, at least they 407 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: said that they're going to introduce electronic ID bracelets of pilgrims, 408 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 1: and that was to two years ago, but in so 409 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: this year when we went, that still not happened. For example, 410 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: there were some groups that had plastic wristbands and they 411 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: seemed fairly durable, but Pilgrims in my group, for example, 412 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: just just got wristbands that were fairly colligible after showering 413 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,239 Speaker 1: for two days, which really wasn't helpful. It's just kind 414 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: of as if they were made of paper, um, so 415 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: obviously if you did lose those, they're not gonna be helpful. 416 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: We had little tags around our necks that had our 417 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: passport number, that had numbers for our group leaders, so 418 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: the people would be able to call them if something 419 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: did go wrong, and I managed to fortunately hold onto 420 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: my tag the whole way through, except for I actually 421 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: lost it on the very final round of me going 422 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: around the carver, so fortunately didn't lose that any earlier, 423 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: but that was kind of fairly lucky on my part. 424 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: And there are other efforts to create safety to So 425 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: for example, because it's now so hot, there are huge 426 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: miss sprays all throughout the streets as you get closer 427 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: to the carver, and also in Minna as you're walking 428 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: along because it does get so hot, so they try 429 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: and cool people down. There are somewhat they even have 430 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: some guards and people along the roads who are just 431 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: helping you and they spray water at you constantly as 432 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: you go along. So it's not just the mis sprays, 433 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: but when it gets particularly touched in the daytime, for example, 434 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: there are people actually spraying water you just to cool 435 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: you down. And then there's the other issue of infrastructure 436 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: and security. So for example, as I mentioned, there are 437 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: sometimes there are bridges that get closed and they're try 438 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: and stop so many people being in the same place 439 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: at the same time. So what we found that after 440 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: the three main days of Hudge, when people then try 441 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: and go back into the carver, it can get quite busy. 442 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: So during those periods they actually close down certain floors 443 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: or certain set so that you just can't get into them. 444 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 1: And so for example, you may have to go all 445 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: the way to the top floor and then work your 446 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: way down from there. Uh, and there's about seven floors. 447 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: But what we found is that a lot of the 448 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: time people would want to try and be out close 449 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: to the car as possible in the ground floor, but 450 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: they just close it off because they didn't obviously want 451 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: to have people injured and getting hurt right so close 452 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: to the cover. All right, well, thank you Siage, thank 453 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: you Donna. This has been really interesting and informative and 454 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: I learned a lot. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks. 455 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 1: Benchmark will be back next week and until then, you 456 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: can find us on the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com 457 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: or Bloomberg app, as well as on Apple Podcasts, pocketcasts, 458 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: and Stitcher. While you're there, take a minute to rate 459 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: and review the show so more listeners can find us 460 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: and let us know what you thought of the show. 461 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at at Scott Landman. 462 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: Seerage is at at dat d A t S and 463 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: you can check out his own podcast on the HAJJ 464 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: called The Hilgrimage. You can find that online too. Donna 465 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: is at at Donna a n one. Benchmark is produced 466 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: by Sarah Patterson thanks for listening, See you next time.