1
00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,640
Speaker 1: Body doubts, but Joseph's gotten more. When you work in

2
00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:12,000
Speaker 1: the world of medical legal death investigation, you come across

3
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:19,040
Speaker 1: some interesting terminology as it applies to causal factors surrounding deaths.

4
00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:24,440
Speaker 1: You know, the way they're described, some of them sound

5
00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,360
Speaker 1: quite bizarre. And then you begin to look at it

6
00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,360
Speaker 1: from the perspective of a forensic pathologist and the practical

7
00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,199
Speaker 1: scientific application those sorts of things, and you begin to

8
00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,000
Speaker 1: understand why they're saying it this way. But it's not

9
00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:49,040
Speaker 1: necessarily the way regular people talk, and it's amazing. Sometimes

10
00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:54,639
Speaker 1: you'll get confusion, a confused response from an individual when

11
00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,200
Speaker 1: you tell them what a cause of death is, and

12
00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,400
Speaker 1: it's because the wording is so.

13
00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:01,560
Speaker 2: Bizarre.

14
00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,200
Speaker 1: I think the one that always baffled me, and I

15
00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:12,399
Speaker 1: guess I gave a little chuckle to was this one.

16
00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,480
Speaker 1: And I'll never forget the first time I heard it.

17
00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:24,319
Speaker 1: It was blunt force trauma secondary to rapid deceleration injuries.

18
00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,960
Speaker 1: Most of the time that applies to a vehicle, a

19
00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:33,559
Speaker 1: motor vehicle accident. But you know, as we've talked before

20
00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,640
Speaker 1: on body bags about certain types of injuries, we know

21
00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,320
Speaker 1: that blunt force trauma is the leading cause of death

22
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,160
Speaker 1: when it comes to motor vehicle accidents. But you know

23
00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:51,560
Speaker 1: there's another category falls. Some of them are super bizarre,

24
00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,800
Speaker 1: some of them are very straightforward. But today we're going

25
00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:01,280
Speaker 1: to talk about a lady who did take quite a

26
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:09,920
Speaker 1: fall from twenty stories and she has sustained more injuries

27
00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:16,200
Speaker 1: then some might be able to count very complex. We're

28
00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:24,480
Speaker 1: going to talk about the death of Caitlin Tracy. Coming

29
00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:30,920
Speaker 1: to you from the beautiful campus of Jacksonville State University.

30
00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:39,399
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Bodybags Well brother Dave.

31
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,480
Speaker 1: As they say in Ireland, top of the morn Antolia,

32
00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,800
Speaker 1: it's good to see you, my friend. Without Dave is

33
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,799
Speaker 1: like a day without sunshine. I love seeing my friend

34
00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,880
Speaker 1: and being able to chat with you. And for those

35
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:54,760
Speaker 1: of you that think that we're in the same room,

36
00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,880
Speaker 1: well that's kind of a mystery. But now we're really not,

37
00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:04,120
Speaker 1: but in view one of one another, you know, uh, electronically,

38
00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,040
Speaker 1: and we make funny faces at one another that none

39
00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,320
Speaker 1: of you can see. But I haven't been able to

40
00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,200
Speaker 1: throw anything at a camera yet. I haven't felt compelled

41
00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,320
Speaker 1: to do that with Dave. Now there are other people

42
00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,120
Speaker 1: that I have been on air withoo. Before that, I

43
00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,960
Speaker 1: feel compelled to throw things at the camera. But you

44
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,520
Speaker 1: haven't lived until you've been in a morgue with a

45
00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,720
Speaker 1: furious forensic pathologist and they throw a dirty surgical instrument out.

46
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,560
Speaker 1: And that happened to me on a couple of occasions,

47
00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,280
Speaker 1: and you know, only a couple occasions. It was the

48
00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,720
Speaker 1: second occasion after it occurred, I threatened to beat them

49
00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:42,680
Speaker 1: to a bloody pulp.

50
00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,560
Speaker 2: Caitlin Tracy is the victim and she is married, secretly

51
00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,400
Speaker 2: married to Adam Beckering. There to year relationship was fraught

52
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,960
Speaker 2: with violence. Joe. It is, I hate to say, a

53
00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:02,680
Speaker 2: typical domestic violence relationship, but is very common. And the

54
00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,640
Speaker 2: reason we're doing this story is Caitlin Tracy was found.

55
00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 2: Her body was found the day after she was reported

56
00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,000
Speaker 2: missing by her husband, and she was found in parts. Okay,

57
00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:19,479
Speaker 2: the way her body was described, she was pulverized. Her

58
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,360
Speaker 2: torso was found on the fifth floor, her severed foot

59
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,160
Speaker 2: found on the second floor. The assumption from the very

60
00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:34,839
Speaker 2: beginning is that she fell twenty floors and in this

61
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:40,800
Speaker 2: condo in southside of Chicago. Now many people would say, okay,

62
00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,359
Speaker 2: if somebody were to fall in a stairwell in a

63
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:48,279
Speaker 2: building that's occupied by hundreds of people. Why did it

64
00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,040
Speaker 2: take two days? Why was she missing for any length

65
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,000
Speaker 2: of time inside the building? And the reason israel simple, Joe.

66
00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,960
Speaker 2: People use elevators. You only use the stairs and once

67
00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,080
Speaker 2: you get above. Now, I'm a stair guy, all right.

68
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,680
Speaker 2: I used to be, and I would not wait on

69
00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,720
Speaker 2: an elevator three or four floors, I'm good. But once

70
00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,039
Speaker 2: you get over the fifth floor, you know, I'm gonna

71
00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:14,080
Speaker 2: catch in the elevator. And that's why, that's why her

72
00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,320
Speaker 2: body wasn't discovered. So remember now we are talking about

73
00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:22,920
Speaker 2: October of twenty twenty four. Her husband reported her missing

74
00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:29,200
Speaker 2: the day before her body was found, and police believe

75
00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:35,640
Speaker 2: that Adam Becker NK threw his wife over the railing

76
00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,560
Speaker 2: from the twentieth floor on October twenty fifth, twenty twenty four.

77
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,760
Speaker 2: He reported her missing the next day, the twenty sixth,

78
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,360
Speaker 2: and her body was found on the twenty seventh. Now,

79
00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,640
Speaker 2: when he reported her missing, Joe, he said he hadn't

80
00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,320
Speaker 2: seen her in a month, but just to give you

81
00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,440
Speaker 2: a heads up, he was lying. A video from inside

82
00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,120
Speaker 2: the building actually showed that they were together. You know,

83
00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,640
Speaker 2: the day leading up to her, but.

84
00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,680
Speaker 1: There was no There was no CCTV in the stairwell

85
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:05,240
Speaker 1: itself though.

86
00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,400
Speaker 2: Correct again, and now it goes back to the elevator

87
00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,120
Speaker 2: versus the stairwell. It just aren't that many stairwell people

88
00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,279
Speaker 2: on the fifth floor, which is where her body was found.

89
00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,720
Speaker 1: I got to tell you something right here. I hate

90
00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,760
Speaker 1: stairwells from this is why I hate them. I hate

91
00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,640
Speaker 1: them from the perspective of personal safety, particularly when it

92
00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:30,680
Speaker 1: comes to my family. I've warned my daughter and my

93
00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:37,680
Speaker 1: wife to a lesser degree my son, but because there

94
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,600
Speaker 1: are so many hidden spots, many of them. And here's

95
00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,479
Speaker 1: another thing. If you're in a public building has a

96
00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,560
Speaker 1: stairwell and you've got somebody that's looking to victimize somebody,

97
00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,440
Speaker 1: first off, you can disable cameras, but also you can

98
00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,320
Speaker 1: knock lights out in those areas and it becomes a

99
00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,640
Speaker 1: real kind of dark area where you can't see anything,

100
00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,360
Speaker 1: and it has nothing to do well at this stage,

101
00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,640
Speaker 1: I don't like to do stairs if I can. And

102
00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,640
Speaker 1: plus I've got this horrible phobia about handrails. There's just

103
00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,280
Speaker 1: I hate handrails. I hate them, and Kim is always

104
00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,880
Speaker 1: getting onto me hold a handrail, you know, we can't

105
00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,240
Speaker 1: afford for you to, you know, to fall down and

106
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,080
Speaker 1: break a hip or break a knee or you know,

107
00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,000
Speaker 1: break my shoulder, fracture my skull. And as a matter

108
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,280
Speaker 1: of fact, she really goes over the top. She says,

109
00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,960
Speaker 1: you realize you don't hold that handrail, You're gonna die.

110
00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, if I hold onto it, I'm going

111
00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,080
Speaker 1: to catch something. And I'm not really a germophobe, but

112
00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,920
Speaker 1: it's just I've been in men's bathrooms so many times

113
00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:45,440
Speaker 1: where I watch people walk by sinks and I hate

114
00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,160
Speaker 1: and people are holding these sinks and just dragging their

115
00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,200
Speaker 1: hands down and I'm thinking, oh my gosh. But I

116
00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,160
Speaker 1: got to tell you something real quick about observable bodies.

117
00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,840
Speaker 1: And you're okay. I know that you're going to remember this.

118
00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,880
Speaker 1: Do you remember the Omni in Atlanta?

119
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:05,280
Speaker 2: Yes?

120
00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:06,120
Speaker 1: Do you remember?

121
00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:06,440
Speaker 2: Then?

122
00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,200
Speaker 1: One of the for people that don't know what I'm

123
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,640
Speaker 1: talking about, Omni was where the Atlanta Hawks used to play.

124
00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,560
Speaker 1: I think they built it originally in the seventies.

125
00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,120
Speaker 2: Is North Carolina State won the ACC championship in nineteen

126
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,560
Speaker 2: eighty three, right that pushed them into the NCAA tournament,

127
00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,000
Speaker 2: where they won March Madis and became national champions and

128
00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,120
Speaker 2: started at the Omni in Atlanta. Would be ACC Basketball tournament.

129
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:36,520
Speaker 1: Go Wolfpack man, Yeah yeah, I hear you by, and

130
00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:41,880
Speaker 1: I got to tell you great concert venue. And it

131
00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,560
Speaker 1: was a great concert venue because you didn't feel like

132
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,520
Speaker 1: you were so pushed back, you know, like they tried

133
00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,719
Speaker 1: to jam a lot of people in these There was

134
00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,360
Speaker 1: something intimate about it. I saw multiple concerts there and

135
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,800
Speaker 1: out of everywhere we were seeing a concert in a coliseum.

136
00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,959
Speaker 1: It was one of the better places. But talk about

137
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,800
Speaker 1: observable spaces with dead bodies. Dave, I actually had a

138
00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,960
Speaker 1: case in the OMNI, and this is not too long

139
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,559
Speaker 1: after I had arrived in Atlanta and was one of

140
00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:20,160
Speaker 1: the more bizarre cases I had worked. It had occurred. Okay,

141
00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:25,440
Speaker 1: basketball season for the nh for the NBA typically ended

142
00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,080
Speaker 1: I think in May, kind of May area. You know.

143
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,719
Speaker 1: Now they try to extend these things so long. You know,

144
00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:38,880
Speaker 1: it's like year round ball. There was. I got called

145
00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:46,120
Speaker 1: to the Omni in late July and this was not

146
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,840
Speaker 1: in a stairwell. This was on one of the concourses

147
00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,720
Speaker 1: adjacent to an exit, and Dave, there was a full

148
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:58,480
Speaker 1: grown man that was laid outside of a door, fully closed,

149
00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:04,000
Speaker 1: face down in a prone position. He was in an

150
00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,000
Speaker 1: advanced state of decomposition. As a matter of fact, this

151
00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:12,680
Speaker 1: was one of those cases involving insect activity where when

152
00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,679
Speaker 1: you walked a couple of theaks where you walk up

153
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,000
Speaker 1: to the body and it looks like the body's moving

154
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,400
Speaker 1: because of the maggot infestation. And he was covered from

155
00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,360
Speaker 1: head to toe and Dave, no one spotted him in

156
00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,080
Speaker 1: the building. No one did. And this was out The

157
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,199
Speaker 1: Omni used to have this funky looking carpet, you know that,

158
00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's right like real brash and you know,

159
00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,320
Speaker 1: just horrible looking. It had, you know, the colors of

160
00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,880
Speaker 1: the Hawks in it, and I think that sort of thing.

161
00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,640
Speaker 1: And at that point in time they were not doing

162
00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,600
Speaker 1: concerts in there, which was kind of odd because you know,

163
00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,000
Speaker 1: you've got to got to feed the beast man, you know.

164
00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,120
Speaker 2: And so the guy was there long enough to get

165
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,280
Speaker 2: decomposed and nobody's see was.

166
00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and no one And it certainly gives you and

167
00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,440
Speaker 1: going back to that talking about kind of security and

168
00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,400
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, it gives you an idea. On

169
00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,560
Speaker 1: a concourse in a major venue like that, you would

170
00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,240
Speaker 1: think that you would have patrols that were going around regularly.

171
00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:15,320
Speaker 1: So for people that think that it's odd that this

172
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,280
Speaker 1: poor woman was not discovered until several until a couple

173
00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,640
Speaker 1: of days later, it's not. This is not something that

174
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,680
Speaker 1: has never happened before. It does. It does, in fact happen,

175
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,840
Speaker 1: And I became reflective of that in that case, you know,

176
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,880
Speaker 1: kind of popped in mind, you know, for me when

177
00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:35,480
Speaker 1: I heard about this, you know, because she's on a

178
00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,600
Speaker 1: stair well, well, how many people are going to end

179
00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,120
Speaker 1: particularly at this height. You know, we're talking twenty stories, dude,

180
00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,520
Speaker 1: unless you're a fitness nut, you know, or unless there's

181
00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,440
Speaker 1: a fire in the building or the elevators is busted.

182
00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 1: I can't imagine anybody saying, you know, well, gee whiz,

183
00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,600
Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to run take the stairs. But

184
00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,080
Speaker 1: that's not what's key here. It's the bottom floors. People

185
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 1: are on the lower floor. I will if I'm staying

186
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:04,720
Speaker 1: at a hotel and I'm staying on like you know,

187
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,000
Speaker 1: like you said, fourth fifth floor, there's a high probability

188
00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,559
Speaker 1: if I'm not dragging luggage with me, if I'm going

189
00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,920
Speaker 1: out to dinner, I'm gonna take a stairwell. How did

190
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:17,959
Speaker 1: they not find her body, which is which is fascinating

191
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,760
Speaker 1: because once they did find her body, Dave, I can

192
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:28,240
Speaker 1: only imagine, you know what, because it was the condition

193
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:33,640
Speaker 1: of her body was so horrific. And you're thinking, well,

194
00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,840
Speaker 1: first off, because when you I'll put it to you

195
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,280
Speaker 1: this way, without giving too much way, the condition of

196
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,080
Speaker 1: her body, all right, when you see her body, it's

197
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,280
Speaker 1: not like you would walk up and say, yeah, I

198
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:54,760
Speaker 1: know who she is, Dave. They're using terms like pulverized.

199
00:12:55,520 --> 00:13:01,200
Speaker 1: We use those terms. We use pulpified, pulverized. When we

200
00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,800
Speaker 1: talk about conditions either externally or internally in the body,

201
00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:09,880
Speaker 1: we talk about pulpified. Pulpified injuries are organs in the body,

202
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,360
Speaker 1: like the spleen and the liver and notorious for being pulpified,

203
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,200
Speaker 1: and that is as a result of blunt force trauma,

204
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,960
Speaker 1: where the organ itself has been so traumatized by blunt

205
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,839
Speaker 1: force that all of the kind of structural integrity of

206
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,880
Speaker 1: the thing just breaks down and it particulates almost in place.

207
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,080
Speaker 1: And it's not like you would be able to walk

208
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,400
Speaker 1: up to her and say, oh, yeah, I know her.

209
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,280
Speaker 1: So can you imagine being that person that finds these

210
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:49,040
Speaker 1: remains and I would imagine that upon discovery of the remainder,

211
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,720
Speaker 1: you're looking and you're thinking, Okay, has she been beaten

212
00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:54,960
Speaker 1: to death? You know, what's the story? You know, what's

213
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,920
Speaker 1: the story with her in this particular condition. Was she

214
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,040
Speaker 1: assaulted when she was coming down the stairwell? But it

215
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,560
Speaker 1: turns out they according to what you're saying, that's not

216
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:08,640
Speaker 1: what the police believe here.

217
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,320
Speaker 2: You know, the I mentioned earlier about going up the stairs. Okay,

218
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,160
Speaker 2: I'm a stairperson, and yet after the third or fourth floor,

219
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,320
Speaker 2: I'm not going. Okay, that's kind of like my window.

220
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,320
Speaker 2: And so that's why I when I was looking at

221
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,160
Speaker 2: why wasn't she found? Well, okay, her body was found,

222
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:30,520
Speaker 2: but only after her severed foot was found on the

223
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 2: second floor. So that kind of goes back to what

224
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,280
Speaker 2: I was saying earlier. People do go up the first

225
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,480
Speaker 2: two or three flights of stairs semi regular, and so

226
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,320
Speaker 2: it makes sense that her foot was found first, not

227
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,760
Speaker 2: her body. It was after they you know, they find

228
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,280
Speaker 2: a shoe and you see something looking there. It is October.

229
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,960
Speaker 2: You know, this happened in October of twenty twenty four,

230
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,080
Speaker 2: and so you're thinking, you know, it's a year ago.

231
00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,560
Speaker 2: This time that this was going on, and so it's

232
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,240
Speaker 2: a little early for Halloween. Hey, it could be you know,

233
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,680
Speaker 2: decorations for that. So that foot didn't immediately scream body.

234
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,360
Speaker 2: It was after a closer look that it was like oh.

235
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,120
Speaker 2: And so then they started the investigation, and that's where

236
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,800
Speaker 2: they then found her body three floors above where her

237
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,720
Speaker 2: foot was found. So I thought that made somewhat sense

238
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:28,760
Speaker 2: to me. But as you go through this, they have

239
00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,440
Speaker 2: to figure out, well, who she is, who is she with,

240
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:36,000
Speaker 2: you know, and immediately Joe the police, as they begin

241
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,040
Speaker 2: the investigation. You know, you're the one that told me

242
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,960
Speaker 2: every dead body is a murder until proven otherwise. And

243
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,120
Speaker 2: that didn't occur to me, It really didn't. But now

244
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:52,240
Speaker 2: after years of doing this, even car wrecks that have

245
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,200
Speaker 2: a dead body, I've seen those turn out to be

246
00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,840
Speaker 2: a homicide, you know, and that's where coming to this,

247
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,200
Speaker 2: that's how they're going to that somebody committed suicide or

248
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,040
Speaker 2: that maybe accident, but they're thinking homicide. They'll proven differently. Well,

249
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,240
Speaker 2: it took a while, but they were able to as

250
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,000
Speaker 2: they started looking at it, you're going, wait a minute.

251
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:19,800
Speaker 2: Her husband reported her missing on the day before her

252
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,720
Speaker 2: body was found and think about that for just a minute.

253
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:29,440
Speaker 2: You know, they're able to prove because I have his

254
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,680
Speaker 2: sen her in thirty days, got report her missing, and

255
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,480
Speaker 2: that that's kind of where in going with this. You know,

256
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,320
Speaker 2: got a little problem with that man when the.

257
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:44,880
Speaker 1: Husband, yeah, charge, It would seem to me that well,

258
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,120
Speaker 1: first off, and I think that you know, since this

259
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,800
Speaker 1: guy's been charged, he's not been put on trial. This

260
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,320
Speaker 1: is this case has not been adjudicated at this point.

261
00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:02,760
Speaker 1: It would seem to me that probably the defense in

262
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,960
Speaker 1: a case like this, if you were having to defend

263
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 1: someone in similar circumstances, they're going to be looking at

264
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 1: this from the perspective of, well, it cuts both ways.

265
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 1: They're going to look look at it from this perspective.

266
00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,240
Speaker 1: You know, well he was he's being a dutiful husband.

267
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:24,919
Speaker 1: You know, he's worried about her, he hasn't seen her

268
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,679
Speaker 1: in thirty days, and suddenly he reports her missing, but

269
00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:34,200
Speaker 1: she's not found until later. Why is he waited all

270
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,720
Speaker 1: this time? And maybe they are in an estranged state.

271
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,760
Speaker 1: But then the prosecution is going to look at this

272
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:43,880
Speaker 1: and they're going to say this is point of attack,

273
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,480
Speaker 1: This is where we can kind of boreholes into this narrative.

274
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,639
Speaker 1: You know that we're talking about relative to relative to

275
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,359
Speaker 1: what he has actually said. You know, it's is it

276
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,280
Speaker 1: coincidental here that he hasn't seen her in thirty days

277
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:00,840
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden and now we've got

278
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,840
Speaker 1: CCTV where we know that he's lying that he hasn't

279
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,080
Speaker 1: seen her, and he calls in the day before she's found,

280
00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:14,160
Speaker 1: and suddenly she's found. It makes you think. It makes

281
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:20,040
Speaker 1: you think that if you have perpetrated some kind of evil,

282
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:26,119
Speaker 1: that if you still have some moral compass within you,

283
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,640
Speaker 1: is it eating away at you? Are you thinking this

284
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:35,320
Speaker 1: person who I have said that I cared about, that

285
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,000
Speaker 1: I wanted to marry and that I wanted to love,

286
00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,879
Speaker 1: is there. I know they're there, and in some lucid moment,

287
00:18:43,760 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 1: say maybe just maybe not a call sent small private

288
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:11,000
Speaker 1: ceremony where people are not aware that you're married. I think,

289
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,199
Speaker 1: on its on its surface, Italy Dave, there's you know,

290
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,520
Speaker 1: kind of a romantic thing that goes along with that.

291
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:23,240
Speaker 1: You know we're going to Elope. I know that dads

292
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,240
Speaker 1: all over the country are hoping for elopements when it

293
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:34,119
Speaker 1: comes to painting for weddings. But in all seriousness, she's,

294
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,320
Speaker 1: you know, in her thirties, he's in his forties, and

295
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:43,000
Speaker 1: they it kind of sounds like they're secretly wed. Why

296
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,719
Speaker 1: would why would you not want this to be a celebration,

297
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,720
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. You know, weddings. To me,

298
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,919
Speaker 1: weddings I always think about, you know, I go back to,

299
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 1: you know, the story in the New Testament, you know,

300
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 1: the first miracle with Christ where it's a celebration. You know,

301
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 1: Mary's asking for wine because they've run out of wine. Right,

302
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:09,280
Speaker 1: it's a celebration, man, And always think about that, you know,

303
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,959
Speaker 1: when I hear about people that don't have an opportunity

304
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,200
Speaker 1: to literally celebrate their nuptials if you will. And there's

305
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 1: a variety of reasons why people don't, but I'm wondering.

306
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 2: This is a good one.

307
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is amazing. There's more.

308
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, they knew each other for two years, Joe. Okay, Which,

309
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:30,160
Speaker 2: by the way, I am not one of these people

310
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,199
Speaker 2: who thinks that you need to be with somebody for

311
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 2: a long time before you may get married and all that.

312
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 2: I'm not that because I've seen people who dated for

313
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,960
Speaker 2: seven years got married into all fall apart in the

314
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,880
Speaker 2: first six months. I'm not that guy. I honestly will

315
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,720
Speaker 2: tell you I met Lodonna the week of Thanksgiving. I

316
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,240
Speaker 2: propose to her the week of Christmas, and we got

317
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 2: married in the following March.

318
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 1: Wow.

319
00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 2: And we were married nearly twenty eight years until she

320
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 2: passed away. So I yeah, it just it's one of

321
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 2: those things. When I saw this, I look at it

322
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:12,479
Speaker 2: because I wonder, you know, relationship wise, and having been

323
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:18,679
Speaker 2: a pastor and counseled couples, I've seen this. Here's what

324
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,200
Speaker 2: we have is they met in October of twenty twenty two,

325
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 2: and both successful, okay, business wise in their personal lives

326
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 2: or private lives or public life, rather their business life.

327
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 2: Both successful. Now, they meet in October twenty twenty two,

328
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,960
Speaker 2: they begin dating. The first year, we don't hear a

329
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 2: whole lot in terms of the law. Okay, we don't

330
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 2: have police reports the first year twenty twenty two. But

331
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 2: I want you to speed dial with me to eleven

332
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 2: months after they begin dating. We're at September twentieth of

333
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, and they have an official breakup. Caitlin

334
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 2: Tracy breaks up with Adam BECKERINGK and immediately he goes

335
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: hey wire and she ends up having to file for

336
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 2: a protection order in November. Remember he is a tax layer.

337
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 2: And when she files for that protection order, she lists

338
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 2: a number of issues violence, emotional, psychological, verbal abuse. I mean,

339
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 2: there is abuse on every level that she puts into

340
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 2: this protection order because the times she broke up with

341
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 2: him in September and the time she files for the

342
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 2: protection order, she says, he's calling me twenty times a day,

343
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 2: he won't leave me alone, you know, And in that

344
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 2: she listed a number of issues that had happened physically

345
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 2: violent between them. He threatens in November twenty twenty three

346
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 2: to sue her if she doesn't pull this back, you know,

347
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 2: threatening a lawsuit, because you're damaging my career, credibility, my character,

348
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 2: you know. And so I want to be very clear here,

349
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,640
Speaker 2: Caitlin Tracy is not a woman who lacks money. Her

350
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 2: family is a family of means. Her mom's a doctor,

351
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 2: her dad is a real estate mogul. They've got cash,

352
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 2: they got money, So that's not an issue at play here.

353
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 2: January thirteenth, twenty twenty four, Caitlyn Tracy calls nine to

354
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 2: one one Beck Rink assaulted her and stole from her

355
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 2: by the way he stole fifty thousand dollars worth of jewelry.

356
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: It's not a small thievery here, and beck Ran fled

357
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 2: before police arrived. April twenty twenty four, they get married.

358
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 2: Think about this for just a minute. We have one

359
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:53,400
Speaker 2: year or eleven months between we meet, we begin to date,

360
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 2: she breaks up, and boom, he goes off the rails.

361
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 2: This domestic violence stuff is going back and forth, and

362
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: you can tell this the pattern. I'm so sorry, baby,

363
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 2: I'll never happen again. I just get so emotional because

364
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 2: I'm so in love with you. It's just You're in

365
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 2: my everything, and the thought of you not being with

366
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 2: me just sends me. I'm so sorry. I will make

367
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: good on that. You know. That's what happens in domestic

368
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 2: violence relationships, why women don't leave and Caitlin Tracy did

369
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 2: have a home in Michigan as well. She had her

370
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 2: own place on a lake, very nice place, so she

371
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 2: had place to go to Joe, she wasn't homeless if

372
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 2: she wasn't with him. He owns the condo in the

373
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 2: South side of Chicago where her body was found in

374
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 2: the stairwell. But they're using both of these homes during

375
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 2: their dating courtship. But then after all of this goes on,

376
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: after she gives him of beating her up and stealing

377
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 2: from her, they then get married, but none of her

378
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 2: family is invited. Now that tells you everything you need

379
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 2: to know about how controlling this man is. Allegedly Adam

380
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: Beckering was able to control either. She was embarrassed, you know,

381
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 2: to after everything she's told her family about what's going

382
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: on in the relationship and doesn't want you know, she

383
00:24:58,800 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 2: married him.

384
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 1: She thought, she well, you see this, you see this

385
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: many times, repeated these cases that I've worked over the

386
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: years involving domestic violence. And you know, I think that

387
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: many people might give pauses and say, well, Morgan, what

388
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: do you know about domestic violence? Well, I can tell

389
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: you what I know about domestic violence. I know it

390
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: from the perspective of a death investigator. And when we

391
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: go back and we work these cases, you will see,

392
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: as you have well stated day, that there is a

393
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 1: you can actually plot a pattern along with this where

394
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: it kind of rises and falls. And there have been

395
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: many times where I've stood over the bodies of dead

396
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:50,239
Speaker 1: women at scenes and the level of violence that you

397
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: see lethal violence, okay, is is like a culmination in

398
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: already ongoing violence because some of these some of these

399
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 1: victims will have old, receding, healing injuries that have been

400
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: acquired over the months preceding, and it will in fact

401
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: rise and fall. You know, the same thing happens with

402
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: children too, with child abuse cases, where you will have

403
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: a parent that will beat a child and they will

404
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: have some level of guilt and shame and there it'll

405
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: go radio silent for a while, and then all of

406
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: a sudden that pent up rage because they can't manage,

407
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 1: manage their their own mind, they fly into these furies

408
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: and do this. And that's that is an explanation for

409
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: what you see. You know many times where individuals are

410
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: literally ripped to shreds, and I mean that with some

411
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: of the injuries that I've seen over the years, and

412
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: they will here here's another interesting thing. With domestic violence

413
00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: and child abuse cases, you will see perpetrate and I

414
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: think probably one of the most significant areas to me,

415
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: that kind of translates into if you're going to develop

416
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: an abuse profile on somebody, you will see damage to

417
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: the mouth. You realize that you will see like over

418
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: and over and over again. You'll see like blunt force

419
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: trauma to the mouth where people are getting punched in

420
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 1: the mouth. I've had cases where women have lost multiple

421
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: teeth prior to their death, and these, you know, the

422
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 1: sockets are actually healing where they've had teeth knocked out.

423
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: And you'll see kids that sustain trauma to the mouth.

424
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: You'll have events where caustic agents will actually be poured

425
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: into the mouth of children in order to shut them up.

426
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: And it's almost like if an individual is not responding

427
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 1: in the correct manner to which the abuser, you know,

428
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: wants them to respond, they literally go after the mouth.

429
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 1: Is that fascinating? And so you'll see all these kinds

430
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: of injuries that interpretively, you can go back and you

431
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: kind of see this line that runs through it all

432
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: and then when it comes to that last fatal moment.

433
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: It reminds me of a case that I worked many

434
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: years ago, and I used this case actually in teaching

435
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: here at JSU and it's a sharp force injury case.

436
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: And I had a lady that had been beaten by

437
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 1: her husband almost every single day and he was just

438
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: this vicious alcoholic and he worked on construction sites and

439
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: he had a habit of coming home getting drunk and

440
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: taking off his belt and chasing her all over the house.

441
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: And this one final night he did this to her,

442
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: I'll never forget. It was up in northeast Atlanta, and

443
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: he made the mistake that night of taking a belt,

444
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: hitting her with a buckle and struck her in the

445
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: neck with it and slapped her in the face, which

446
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: he had, according to her, had never done. He would

447
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: just whip her with a belt. And he was again

448
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: raging drunk. He passes out on the sofa. So it's

449
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: in that moment that she decides she's had enough. She

450
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: goes into the kitchen. She takes a really cheap serrated

451
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: steak knife. He's passed out on the sofa, face down,

452
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: and she drove that knife into his back over and

453
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: over and over again. To when I got out to

454
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: the scene to examine his body, she had snapped a

455
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: blade off in his back. The handle was laying over

456
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: to the side and the rest of the blade was

457
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: hanging out. I don't people, I don't know if people

458
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: really realize the level of anger and violence that you

459
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: see in domestic violence. Now that case ended that I'm

460
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: just mentioning where the DA to their credit, did not

461
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: charge this woman, they did not charge it. The grand

462
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: jury wouldn't bite on it because of everything she had

463
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: been through. But in the case of Caitlyn Tracy, there.

464
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: Still it was the belt buckle on the neck that actually.

465
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: Was Yeah, it was the belt bible that it had

466
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,239
Speaker 1: struck her on the face and on the neck, and

467
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: this was evidenced in this particular case. I don't know,

468
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: because of what we're going to talk about with Kaitlyn

469
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: Tracy and the trauma that she sustained, I don't know

470
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: how easy this is going to be to interpret, to

471
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: be able to scientifically separate any kind of pre existing

472
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: abuse injuries she may have had prior to a fall.

473
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: But I know this, I do know that therein is

474
00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: going to rest a narrative and you're not going to believe, Yeah,

475
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: the trauma that she sustained. Brother, I got to tell you,

476
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: you know, I was relating that case about the domestic

477
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: abuse where the lady survived, and I guess you could

478
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: call her fortunate on one level she escaped with her life.

479
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: But in Caitlin's case, we unfortunately, we're looking at a

480
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:44,479
Speaker 1: pretty brutal death here. Now, it's my understanding that just

481
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: over the past week and one of the reasons you

482
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: have suggested we do this case, and I'm thankful that

483
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: you that you've made me aware of it. This person

484
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: has made some court appearances this past week and that's

485
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: why it's on our radar right now.

486
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 2: Well, Adam beckeringk you know I mentioned the fighting before

487
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: and the charges in the nine will one call and

488
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 2: the filing for protection order. Well after they got married,

489
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 2: secretly keiving her family away in April of twenty twenty four.

490
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: Go fast forward to August of twenty twenty four there

491
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 2: in Michigan at her house there and she ends up

492
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: having to call the police and he is arrested for

493
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: domestic violence. If you watch this video of him being arrested,

494
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: it's like he is constantly going back and forth Joe

495
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: between trying to convince the police, hey, just stop, let's talk.

496
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: Come on, let's just talk, guys, don't don't take me away.

497
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: He loses it. They've got him in cups. They're taking

498
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: him to the car, and as they're getting ready to

499
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 2: put him in the car, he starts screaming. You see

500
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 2: him turn from come on, guys, let's just talk to you.

501
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: See the other side of him and it's violent, ambitious,

502
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 2: and that's why he was in courts over the course

503
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: of the last year. Her death in October of twenty

504
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 2: twenty four has been investigated, but they haven't had an arrest.

505
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 2: And so from the time of her death until now,

506
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: he Adam Beckering has had to deal with the domestic

507
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: violence charge from August of twenty twenty four, two months

508
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: before she died, and that's what he was in court

509
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: for this week because he skipped out on going to court.

510
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 2: They actually got him on that in Chicago and took

511
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 2: him back to Michigan. He showed up one time in

512
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 2: court drunk. That was a contempt of court charge that

513
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: landed him some extra days. So he was sentenced to

514
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 2: ninety four days in jail on the domestic violence charge

515
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 2: from August of twenty twenty four. That's why he was

516
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 2: in court this week. And by the way, during his

517
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: appearance in court this week on the domestic violence charge

518
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 2: a year after her death, her mother gave a victim

519
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 2: impact statement and it was powerful, Joe, just very very powerful.

520
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 2: And so as we address the issue today, remember we've

521
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 2: got domestic violence documented in this relationship. We have a

522
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 2: beautiful young woman who is now dead and police are

523
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: trying to figure out what happened. Now. I'm hoping that

524
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: you can make some sense out of the injuries. I

525
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 2: read the report from the medical examiner. Hearing or reading pulverized,

526
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: her body was pulverized tells me there was more to

527
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 2: it than just a fall. But based on the injuries,

528
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan, are they going to be able to

529
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 2: determine what happened? Really?

530
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: Yeah? I'm glad you asked that we were talking off

531
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:55,919
Speaker 1: air about this, and I know I don't think we've

532
00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: covered them specifically on our program, but I know that

533
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: you have, and I have, separate from you, been on

534
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: cases that we've covered on air involving individuals that have

535
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: fallen from height, and there's always these questions, you know,

536
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: some of the things that come to mind. There's been

537
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: a couple of cases where people have gone over the

538
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: side of cruise ships. We've had cases where people have

539
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: fallen off of trails, you know, like in you know,

540
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: some grand height. Not too many, interestingly enough, there, at

541
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 1: least for me. I'm not talking about for everybody else,

542
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: but just for me. I don't recall a case where

543
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 1: we've had somebody in an internal stairwell, you know where

544
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: this has occurred. What this is going to come down to,

545
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: I think is trying to interpret those injuries. And granted,

546
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 1: I have to go back to this term because fascinated

547
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: that this has been released to the public in this

548
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 1: in using this terminology where they're using the term pulverized.

549
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: You know, pulverized is at its base element, it's associated

550
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: with blunt force trauma. You know, it doesn't take somebody

551
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: with a graduate degree in forensic science figure that out.

552
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: All right, Okay, but when you hear that when somebody

553
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 1: is pulverized, you're talking about multiple strike points, you know,

554
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: on a body where you know this trauma has been

555
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 1: inflicted upon them. I'm fascinated by this because these injuries

556
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: that she has, Dave, are on multiple planes of the body,

557
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: multiple anatomical locations. Dave, She's got, just so folks understand,

558
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: she's got multiple skull forraized, Okay, multiple skull fractures. As

559
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, they make it sound as though

560
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: that she's got brain extrude what we refer to as

561
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 1: brain extrusion, which means that one of these skull fractures

562
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: is so bad, maybe a couple of them where you

563
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: have both gray and white matter that are extruding from

564
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: these massive it's going to be lacerated and underlying skull

565
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: fractures where you can go to the scene and visibly

566
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: see the brain, okay, you know, presenting right there, they

567
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: make note of a particular, pretty nasty laceration that's on

568
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: the back of her head. And just so we know, lacerations,

569
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: God bless my friends in the medical field. But when

570
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: they use the term laceration, it doesn't mean the same

571
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 1: as it does when we're talking about, you know, lacerations

572
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: and death investigation laceration for us, because they'll use the

573
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: term laceration when actually they it's a sharp force injury,

574
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: but they'll just you know, and they'll refer to them

575
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: as lax lac. I was just talking about this in class.

576
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, they'll say lack and lax

577
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,919
Speaker 1: are not always blunt force trauma. But for in our

578
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: vernacular in medical legal world, anytime you have a laceration

579
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: that's related to the energy of striking the skin and

580
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: the skin literally tearing, and there's certain things that we

581
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: look for, you know, and just kind of a little

582
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: primer again for folks that haven't heard this before, but

583
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: with sharp force injuries, the margins are the edges of

584
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: wounds will be very neat and clean. You know, because

585
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: you're talking about an instrument. You know it's drug over

586
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: an area or sliced. Okay, lacerations in the terms that

587
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: we use in forensic pathology, you're going to have what's

588
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: referred to as tissue bridging, which means that with the

589
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: tissue itself, if you if you if you ever sit

590
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: down you eat a steak or eat a piece of chicken,

591
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: instead of taking a knife and cutting it into if

592
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: you pull, if you pull on both sides of a

593
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: piece of steak or chicken, you'll see these kind of

594
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 1: strings that will appear, okay, And that's the fibrous tissue

595
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: of that of that meat that it's being pulled apart.

596
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: And that's called tissue bridging. You don't get that with

597
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: sharp force injuries. You get that with blunt force trauma

598
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: and so, and the injuries will be generally very very jagged, Okay,

599
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: they'll be gaping, irregular in appearance. You'll have the tissue

600
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,439
Speaker 1: bridging that'll come about. So they've identified this and there's

601
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: also a other insults that she has. And look, dude,

602
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: we haven't even talked about the severed foot, you know,

603
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: which is a manifestation in and of itself. That's that's

604
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: super bizarre. You do see it. It's a traumatic In

605
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: my opinion, it would be what we refer to as

606
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: a traumatic amputation. But it requires so much force in

607
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: order to facilitate that.

608
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 2: All right, Joe, There's a comment that was made and

609
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 2: in the medical examiner's report that says, beyond multiple skull fractures,

610
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: there is a deep, gaping laceration on the back of

611
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: her head, exposing cranial content. Yeah, cuts and bruises to

612
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: her face and neck, and a badly broken nose. These

613
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,479
Speaker 2: are things one would expect, you know, on a long

614
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 2: on a big fall. Now, yes, are they going to

615
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 2: this seems stupid. They're going to go up to the

616
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 2: floor they believe she was thrown over the side, and

617
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,720
Speaker 2: they're going to examine all the way down those stairs,

618
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 2: every foot to see where because her head to have

619
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 2: these injuries, it seems like it would have had to

620
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 2: hit other things too on the way down.

621
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, this is you can consider. And this is

622
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: kind of I'm so glad you brought this up. This

623
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: is fascinating from a scene processing perspective, this entire If

624
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: you think of a stairwell as like a let's just

625
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't want to use term cylinder,

626
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: but that's the best way I can kind of describe it.

627
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 1: I kind of a contained cylinder, and it's got these

628
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 1: and you imagine the stairwells stair rails rather that are

629
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 1: you know, moving about. You've got these metal objects, metal surfaces.

630
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 1: This scene is so complex, Dave, that you're talking. We're talking.

631
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: Let me get this straight. We're talking twenty actually twenty

632
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: four story, that's right.

633
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 2: Okay, he was on his condos on the twenty fourth floor,

634
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: but her body was found on the fifth floor, on.

635
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: The fifth floor, yeah, and the foot was found on

636
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: the second floor. So we're talking, we're talking. So if

637
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: you okay, let's just think about it this way. If

638
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,720
Speaker 1: he's domiciled on the twenty fourth floor, and it's generally

639
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: more than this, but just for rough figures here, okay,

640
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: from the top, if we say that each floor, just

641
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: for round figures here, we'll say each floor is ten feet.

642
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: We're talking two hundred and forty feet. Yep, that's a

643
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: long way, man, that's a long long way. You know,

644
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: you begin thinking about terms. If I've got any friends

645
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,800
Speaker 1: out there in our audience that think about the physics

646
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 1: and thinking about free falling, think about terminal velocity and

647
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: all those sorts of things. You know, can you hit

648
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 1: terminal velocity? But I don't think that she could have.

649
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,919
Speaker 1: And this is why, because I think she's pinballing off

650
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: of these And that's why, like when you work, if

651
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 1: you think her point of origin and you don't know

652
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 1: this again, falls are really hard to interpret. If he's

653
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: domiciled up there and that's your starting point, now you'd

654
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: have to go superior. If it goes up any higher,

655
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,760
Speaker 1: you still have to go and account for that. Because remember,

656
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: in forensics, as we've stated before, you and I both

657
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: Dave and I think you're in agreement with me, negative

658
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: findings are just as important as positive finding. So we

659
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: have to do things like rule things out, rule things in.

660
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: And you hear that a lot. That's part of our vernacular.

661
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: So we would have to go if their floor is

662
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: superior to this area, you'd have to start up there.

663
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: You can't just say, well, yeah, she had her husband

664
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: was domiciled on this floor. We're gonna start here and

665
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: go down. You got to go to the top. You

666
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: got and again wherever the terminus is up top, you

667
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: have to go up there and inspect every inch along

668
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: the way, and to do the slightest little droplet of

669
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: blood deposition as she's falling through the space is going

670
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: to be significant. And because her head is so involved, Dave,

671
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: and this is kind of this is very horrific. Okay,

672
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 1: With every strike, if she were to strike a handrail,

673
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: you can actually find bits of hair that will be

674
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: almost tacked in place by perhaps blood deposition, or if

675
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: a scalp has been torn I've seen this happen. If

676
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: the scalp is torn away, you can actually see skin

677
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 1: that is deposited on these strike points, on these surfaces

678
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: as she's free falling. Okay, so you have to inspect

679
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: every one of those because each one of those where

680
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: there is biological deposition has evidentiary value. And it makes

681
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: you know if you're going to try to describe this

682
00:44:55,200 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: in court, all right, which they will, it would not

683
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 1: surprise me. And this might be more of a defense thing,

684
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: It would not surprise me if they were to get

685
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: maybe a forensic engineer to come in and talk about

686
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 1: this dynamic. I don't know if that'll happen, but there's

687
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:23,760
Speaker 1: going to be higher level math involved in this. Also,

688
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 1: the idea of and we covered this, I can't remember

689
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: which case it was. Is it you begin to think about, well,

690
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: is it possible for someone to throw themselves off, like

691
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 1: under your own power, you throw yourself off over a

692
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 1: rail and you propel, propel yourself out into space to

693
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: the point where you're going to free fall, okay, as

694
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 1: opposed to being kind of pushed over the side where

695
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: you're kind of banging all the way down. That's going

696
00:45:55,080 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: to be very interesting to examine, you know, examine just

697
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 1: evidentary placement deposition all the way down until until you

698
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: come to rest. And we have to understand the body

699
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: is separate from this traumatic amputation or the amputated foot.

700
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: There has to be a contact point, Dave, here's something interesting.

701
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: A contact point where that foot was ripped away, and

702
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 1: there will be deposition there, I can almost promise you.

703
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 1: Because she would have had to have attained, attained or

704
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: obtained I can't remember enough velocity for that ripping event

705
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: to occur. Did a foot. Did her foot get caught

706
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: in like between two rails, for instance? And she has

707
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,760
Speaker 1: so much speed, so much velocity, that it could literally

708
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: be ripped away. And that's traumatic amputation. You see traumatic amputations,

709
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 1: see them a lot in plane crashes. Do you know

710
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: that every plane crash I've ever worked, this is a

711
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: real side. Forgive me, I'm chasing rabbits. Every plane crash

712
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 1: I've ever worked, I've had bilateral broken ankles on every

713
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 1: one of the victims. It's just it's that transfer of

714
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: the energy. You know that that's occurring, and you will

715
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: have you know, this kind of violent violence that's going

716
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 1: on now for her. The big question, Dave is were

717
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: any of these injuries pre existent, you know, to the

718
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: fatal event? And can you can you delineate? And so

719
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 1: it cooked County. When they're doing her autopsy, one of

720
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:45,959
Speaker 1: the things that they're going to take a look at

721
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: is the totality of her remains. If she the injuries,

722
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: I think that remind me that what was it? There's

723
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,760
Speaker 1: something significant on her back, isn't there.

724
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: That you not of? Yeah, because in the report, the

725
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 2: corner said she suffered an eleven inch laceration on her torso,

726
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 2: and the coroner made note of a twelve by ten

727
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 2: inch area of intense black and brown abrasions on her back,

728
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 2: again pointing out these two separate things, an eleven inch

729
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:27,399
Speaker 2: laceration on her torso and a twelve y ten inch

730
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: area of intense black and brown abrasions.

731
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this additional laceration she're referring to again, I

732
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: go back to the description that I did. The delineation

733
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: between laceration and sharp force injury is this. If you

734
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 1: have a pathologist calling this a laceration, that means that

735
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: that's blunt force trauma, because if it was in fact

736
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 1: a sharp force injury, they.

737
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 2: Would say that, okay, all right, good, thank you.

738
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: So that's going to be like blunt force trauma where

739
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 1: you're impacting and Dave, if you're talking about on the torso,

740
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: that's a tremendous amount of energy transfer that has to

741
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: rip the skin, particularly on the chest or the back.

742
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: I'd say more so probably if it was on chest

743
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,720
Speaker 1: and abdomen, but certainly on the back to a certain

744
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,720
Speaker 1: extent where the skin is being there's so much friction

745
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 1: that's involved in this skin rips. Now, this abraided area

746
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:30,240
Speaker 1: where they're saying black, they're saying blue, blue and brown, right,

747
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: black and brown, black and brown. Well, brown implies to

748
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: me that this is an abrasion, okay, where because we

749
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: get these brown areas many times where the skin is literally,

750
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: I hate to use term peeled, but it's more like

751
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: scraped along the way where you're going down into the

752
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: dermis below the epidermis, into the dermis and you're kind

753
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: of peeling away. And also one more thing, if a

754
00:49:55,680 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: body is placed into placed into a cooler overnight, that

755
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: brown area may have actually appeared differently at the scene

756
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,720
Speaker 1: because one of the things that happens folks don't realize.

757
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 1: That's about the more one of the things that happens

758
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: many times is if a body is refrigerated, that environment

759
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: tends to be very dry many times, and it will

760
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 1: dry out these kind of damp areas like that, and

761
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 1: you'll you'll begin to see a drying of these of

762
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: these upbraided areas. It'll it'll be very pronounced where there

763
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: any other bruising or contusions on the body that don't

764
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: match up with the immediate bruising that you have in

765
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: the perry mortem state. I think you know one of

766
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: the big questions that people need to ask with falls

767
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: many times, is that considering the level of trauma, considering

768
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: the level of trauma, was the death instantaneous? Hard question

769
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: to answer. I think everybody, I think, for their own

770
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: peace of mind, they would like to think that no

771
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 1: one feels pain and that that the death was instantaneous.

772
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: I don't think you can prove that in every single case,

773
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: over and over and again. This goes back to kind

774
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 1: of at a cellular level, where you've got these changes

775
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:25,479
Speaker 1: that occur that are responded trauma responses, and cells trying

776
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: to see, you know, if there's any evidence here that

777
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: you know that that sheat that this was survival. I'm

778
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: thinking no, because of the extrusion of brain. They're saying

779
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 1: that they see brain, you know. And in addition to

780
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 1: that they you have to either ruly and rule out

781
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: how did she get separated from her foot? Uh. If

782
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: you're an investigator worth your salt, you're automatically you're not

783
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: going to assume anything in this case. You want to

784
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: know if this was a non Uh, how can I

785
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 1: say this that something else was not going on here?

786
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: Where an instrument was applied to that ankle, the foot,

787
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: You have to either rule that in or rule it out.

788
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: So in the autopsy report they're going to make note

789
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 1: of that as well. My suspicion is is that this

790
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:21,320
Speaker 1: is going to be a traumatic amputation that results because

791
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 1: she's clipped something, she's bumped into something at a real

792
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 1: high rate of speed, and it tore this away.

793
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 2: Joe, can you determine if injuries happened inside that apartment

794
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 2: and she was dead when she was thrown over the rail.

795
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 1: I hope they got to the apartment quickly. I'll put

796
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: it to you that way. I hope that when they

797
00:52:52,640 --> 00:53:00,879
Speaker 1: facilitated all of this. Now, remember, here's what you're dealing with. Superficially,

798
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: we know that there was a delay. She was not

799
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: found for I don't know what was it.

800
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,800
Speaker 2: For days hours? Well, yeah, the twenty fifth. The police

801
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 2: believe she was dead on the twenty fifth, Then the stairwell.

802
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 2: She was reported missing the next day and found on

803
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 2: the twenty seventh.

804
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:23,720
Speaker 1: So yeah, you've got so we know we have an

805
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 1: absolute marking time where we know verifiably she was alive. Okay,

806
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: So from that moment Tom until the moment she was dead,

807
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: you know, you have to ask yourself as an investigator,

808
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: What areas of the building does she frequent you know?

809
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: Looking for patterns here? Right? So obviously you're going to

810
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:45,399
Speaker 1: land on where her husband is domiciled. How quickly did

811
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: the police get out there with a warrant after they

812
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: cleared him out of that space? Is there any evidence,

813
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: any blood evidence in there? Is there any evidence that

814
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: there was a fracas in there where items were broken

815
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 1: or dislodged anything whatsoever? Because they're gonna have to cover

816
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: to sing with a fine tooth comb and kind of

817
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: inspect it very very carefully. And if there is blood

818
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 1: in that apartment, because blood is primarily what you're going

819
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:17,400
Speaker 1: to be looking for, I think whose blood is it?

820
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: You know? And is it human blood?

821
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 2: Was there a jud Yeah, they had domestic violence in

822
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,760
Speaker 2: their relationship, So let's just say for the sake of argument,

823
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 2: he says, yes, that's her blood. We did have a fight,

824
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 2: but you know what, I didn't kill her. That's not

825
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 2: from that debt. Can nate hell? Was this from the

826
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 2: twenty fifth or did she just get upset and jump

827
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 2: to her death and you commit suicide by jumping over

828
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 2: the railing? I mean, if there's blood in his apartment,

829
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 2: as a condom. It can be explained based on two

830
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 2: years of.

831
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: Domestic abuse, Yeah, it certainly could. And DV is a

832
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: there's a gulf of distance between DV and homside. Okay,

833
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 1: your default position, you want it to be DV related

834
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,879
Speaker 1: as opposed to homicide. Homicide is completely different. Kettle fish here,

835
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: and when you look at that, what you know if

836
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:15,280
Speaker 1: there is blood deposition in there and it is old blood,

837
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: there are certain tests that we can do with older

838
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:24,240
Speaker 1: what we suspect our older blood stains, because that becomes

839
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: very fragile. Anybody that's ever seen like if you've ever

840
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: cut yourself and you missed a blood droplet, you'll notice

841
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:35,280
Speaker 1: that blood, that blood stain that's left behind becomes very fragile.

842
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 1: Sometimes they'll even look like rust. Uh, the blood will

843
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 1: be flaking, okay, And so there's certain ways that we

844
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: collect that. But it's really hard to age, very very

845
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 1: difficult to age blood. Essentially, you can say that this

846
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: is you can say, well, it's desiccated, it's broken down,

847
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:58,800
Speaker 1: dried out, you know. Desiccation is another term for dried out, dehydrated.

848
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 1: You're going to be looking at that and you can

849
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: make an observation. The problem is is that you really

850
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:14,319
Speaker 1: can't say definitively this much time elapsed, Okay, you can

851
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 1: kind of bracket it maybe, okay, as opposed to fresh,

852
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: as opposed to old. The best thing you can do

853
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:25,760
Speaker 1: in this case, though, is we look at that scene

854
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: from the perspective that every surface has a story to tell.

855
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 1: And as we move forward with this case, because at

856
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: this point we only have someone that's been charged, We

857
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: have no one that has been convicted. But for this

858
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 1: poor victim, we know that she had a story that

859
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 1: she told of her own life in life, but there's

860
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:59,800
Speaker 1: something else. Her body tells a story about her death.

861
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 1: Is the definition? Is the explanation going to be sufficient

862
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: to the task that awaits them when they walk through

863
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: the doors of that courtroom for a trial. I'm Joseph

864
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, and this is bodybags.