1
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,840
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

2
00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,680
Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

3
00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,920
Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

4
00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,560
Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

5
00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:21,080
Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

6
00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,040
Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

7
00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,120
Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

8
00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,800
Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

9
00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,479
Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

10
00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,920
Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

11
00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:39,920
Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

12
00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:04,120
Speaker 3: Hey, Kate, how's it going.

13
00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:05,880
Speaker 1: It's going well, Paul. How about you?

14
00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,080
Speaker 3: I'm doing great. What's been going on with you? Well?

15
00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,000
Speaker 1: A few things actually. So this is season eight of

16
00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,720
Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked, which just premiered this week. I love

17
00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,440
Speaker 1: this season. It's about a woman who is suspected of

18
00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,280
Speaker 1: killing members of her family and it's a big question mark.

19
00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,640
Speaker 1: It's in New Orleans in nineteen ten and it's a

20
00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,880
Speaker 1: huge mystery. So I'm really interested in hearing what listeners

21
00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,160
Speaker 1: think about that show. And for today's episode of Buried bones.

22
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,319
Speaker 1: I've been prepping a lot, not that I don't normally prep,

23
00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,600
Speaker 1: you know, I prep a ton, but I'm kind of

24
00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,520
Speaker 1: nervous because this is a story that one of my

25
00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:51,320
Speaker 1: really good friends, who's an incredible writer, wrote for Texas Monthly,

26
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,840
Speaker 1: and she listens to this show all the time, and

27
00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,280
Speaker 1: she's a pole Holes fan, and so I know she's listening.

28
00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,480
Speaker 1: I rarely have that happen where I I know the

29
00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,880
Speaker 1: reporters listening to me, So I really hope I do

30
00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,920
Speaker 1: hear justice. I have so much respect for Pam Koloff,

31
00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,800
Speaker 1: who's an outstanding author and journalist. I imagine that you

32
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:15,680
Speaker 1: probably have had your hero look over your shoulder on

33
00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,000
Speaker 1: some of the cases that you do. So it's a

34
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:19,560
Speaker 1: little bit of extra pressure for me.

35
00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,240
Speaker 2: Now, I completely get that that's a tough position to

36
00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,560
Speaker 2: be in because you want to do justice, not only

37
00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,280
Speaker 2: to the case, but now you have that added pressure

38
00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,079
Speaker 2: you know somebody that you really respect.

39
00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,240
Speaker 3: And who knows the details of this case. Right.

40
00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,880
Speaker 2: So for me, the funny thing is is that since

41
00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,960
Speaker 2: I got into this true crime world, I have family

42
00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:47,440
Speaker 2: members including my father as well as aunts cousins that.

43
00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:51,000
Speaker 3: Listen, and you know that is a little odd for me.

44
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,560
Speaker 2: You know, it's like, because I did my entire career

45
00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,239
Speaker 2: without them really knowing what I was doing, and then

46
00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,880
Speaker 2: here I am now talking about the sexual homicide and

47
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,519
Speaker 2: you know, different things that would be very awkward to

48
00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:06,760
Speaker 2: talk about as a kid with your parents.

49
00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,280
Speaker 3: You know, it's just it's just kind of a situation.

50
00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,600
Speaker 2: But I think it's a similar feeling because I always

51
00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,400
Speaker 2: feel if I start thinking about that, then I'll start

52
00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,520
Speaker 2: to shut down and I have to just kind of

53
00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:18,640
Speaker 2: well put that aside. And they're going to hear the

54
00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,320
Speaker 2: you know, they're going to hear Paul. That's what's going

55
00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:21,960
Speaker 2: to be happening.

56
00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,240
Speaker 1: It's a unique experience. I mean, you know, my mom

57
00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,840
Speaker 1: is a huge Paul Holes fan and sort of a

58
00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,480
Speaker 1: Kate Winkler Dawson fan. Goes off and on the story.

59
00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:31,839
Speaker 3: She's a big Kate fan.

60
00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure she says. She's a huge true crime fan.

61
00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 1: She listens to more podcasts than I even thought existed

62
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:38,040
Speaker 1: on true crime.

63
00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:38,520
Speaker 3: Oh wow.

64
00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,200
Speaker 1: But I have a group of seven girlfriends who I've

65
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,040
Speaker 1: known my whole life, some of them since middle school,

66
00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 1: and they text me, they all listen, and I always

67
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,160
Speaker 1: put them in my book and acknowledgments and stuff, and

68
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,640
Speaker 1: they text me because they'll listen to the show. So

69
00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,800
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm in a permanent audience sometimes and

70
00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 1: I want to do really well, but especially because I

71
00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,520
Speaker 1: respect Pam coll Off so much as a journalist, and

72
00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,080
Speaker 1: I remember reading about this story and thinking, what a

73
00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,960
Speaker 1: horrible miscarriage of justice, And when she wrote it, it

74
00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,160
Speaker 1: was a miscarriage of justice. And thankfully there was a

75
00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,960
Speaker 1: little that was captured later on, but certainly not enough.

76
00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 1: This story came from her article called Unholy Act, which

77
00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,200
Speaker 1: was in Texas Monthly in two thousand and five. So

78
00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,440
Speaker 1: it's an older story that starts in nineteen sixty Texas.

79
00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:31,760
Speaker 1: So let me just go ahead and set the scene.

80
00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:32,280
Speaker 3: Okay.

81
00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,320
Speaker 1: This is a story that some people might have heard

82
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,640
Speaker 1: of just because it's been for me devastating to read about,

83
00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,080
Speaker 1: and involves a woman named Irene Garza. She was twenty

84
00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,000
Speaker 1: five years old and she was in McCallen, Texas. She

85
00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:54,159
Speaker 1: was this quintessential small town, smiling beauty who was wonderful

86
00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:58,880
Speaker 1: to her family, who was very popular homecoming queen. She

87
00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,800
Speaker 1: was the first Hispanic twirler at her mostly white high

88
00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,719
Speaker 1: school and the first person in her family to get

89
00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:10,320
Speaker 1: a college degree. So she was seemingly the perfect child,

90
00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,400
Speaker 1: someone who her family just adored. And I will tell

91
00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,040
Speaker 1: you something just from the start that's a little creepy

92
00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:21,960
Speaker 1: to me. She regularly attended services at McCallan's Sacred Heart Church,

93
00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,880
Speaker 1: which is a Catholic church, and the creepy part to

94
00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,720
Speaker 1: me was that men would go specifically to check her

95
00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:33,200
Speaker 1: out because she was so beautiful. And I really hate

96
00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,320
Speaker 1: emphasizing the beauty of women because it feels like we

97
00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,680
Speaker 1: don't talk about how good looking a man was when

98
00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,680
Speaker 1: he's been killed. Why are we talking about how good

99
00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,680
Speaker 1: looking women are? But that fact just really struck me

100
00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,159
Speaker 1: as odd and somebody who to me, I think from

101
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,720
Speaker 1: the start it sounds like Irene Garza was maybe exploited

102
00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 1: a little bit because of her beauty, and I think

103
00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,200
Speaker 1: probably always lived in a little bit of level of

104
00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,320
Speaker 1: discomfort in this town, I imagine. So at the very

105
00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,039
Speaker 1: beginning of this story, I want to kind of set

106
00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:06,400
Speaker 1: the scene for that. What do you think?

107
00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,560
Speaker 3: Okay, So if I understand what you just said is

108
00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:15,200
Speaker 3: that men were attending mass specifically because Irene was there,

109
00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,599
Speaker 3: and then they're just eyeballing her while they're at mass.

110
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,640
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, So already there's a creepiness factor to the

111
00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,239
Speaker 1: story for me. She was a very popular school teacher,

112
00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,479
Speaker 1: very intelligent, and Irene was very popular, just seemingly no

113
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,359
Speaker 1: enemies whatsoever. So you can see where we're heading here.

114
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,640
Speaker 1: She is about to become the victim of a really

115
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:41,760
Speaker 1: terrible thing. The day before Easter Sunday in nineteen sixty

116
00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,359
Speaker 1: this was April sixteenth, which is a Saturday, she asked

117
00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,120
Speaker 1: her parents if she could borrow the car. She said

118
00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:49,839
Speaker 1: she wasn't going to have it very long, but she

119
00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:54,400
Speaker 1: wanted to go to Sacred Heart for confession, and she

120
00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,479
Speaker 1: said she'd be right back home. So she went to church.

121
00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,400
Speaker 1: People saw her there. Lots of parishioners saw her there,

122
00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,000
Speaker 1: recognized her. People saw her go into the church, but

123
00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,760
Speaker 1: they didn't see her leave the church. First of all,

124
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,520
Speaker 1: tell me about safety in a public building like that.

125
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 1: I'm assuming you've investigated some cases that probably involve not

126
00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,080
Speaker 1: necessarily directly people in the church, but it's not a

127
00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,400
Speaker 1: very secure building most of them, is that right?

128
00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:24,400
Speaker 3: No, that's true.

129
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,600
Speaker 2: You know, I do have, just from personal experience experience

130
00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,560
Speaker 2: with the Catholic churches, the buildings around it, you know,

131
00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,240
Speaker 2: as I was a boy going through like confirmation and

132
00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,840
Speaker 2: everything else, so you know, I have a general sense

133
00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,600
Speaker 2: of that just from my own experiences. But also I

134
00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,840
Speaker 2: do have a case that after I retired for a

135
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,880
Speaker 2: show that I did where a Catholic priest was beaten

136
00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,800
Speaker 2: to death inside the church facility, you know, And part

137
00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,040
Speaker 2: of assessing, well, who could have done this type of

138
00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:59,800
Speaker 2: crime is also assessing the facility, who has access.

139
00:07:59,400 --> 00:07:59,920
Speaker 3: In and out.

140
00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,120
Speaker 2: And when you do have a facility that is going

141
00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,280
Speaker 2: to be generally open to the public and is not secure,

142
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:13,320
Speaker 2: then that opens up the suspect pool, and so it

143
00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,120
Speaker 2: can complicate the investigation.

144
00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,360
Speaker 1: And then you're mixing in not just the public, but

145
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,720
Speaker 1: everybody who works at the church. You've got people who

146
00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,160
Speaker 1: are saying, well, if you think I'm a suspect, look

147
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,600
Speaker 1: at all the people around me. I have an alibi.

148
00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,120
Speaker 1: I think it just complicates things. It's almost like not

149
00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,200
Speaker 1: being at a concert necessarily, but there are just so

150
00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,640
Speaker 1: many people that could be around and little hiding places

151
00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,720
Speaker 1: in churches. Apparently this was a fairly large Catholic church,

152
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,040
Speaker 1: so let me get into the details. No one saw

153
00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,679
Speaker 1: her leave, people saw her go in and this is

154
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,160
Speaker 1: the day before Easter, so it's probably a little bustling

155
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,679
Speaker 1: here in the church. She still lived with her parents.

156
00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,560
Speaker 1: She was twenty five, but she lived with her parents.

157
00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,280
Speaker 1: When she didn't come home that night, her parents knew

158
00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,040
Speaker 1: something was wrong and they reported her missing to the police.

159
00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,679
Speaker 1: That night, she had vanished. Nobody knew what happened to her.

160
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,920
Speaker 1: There was a huge man hunt within that day. People

161
00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,600
Speaker 1: were alarmed. She was not a potential victim who was

162
00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,959
Speaker 1: a high risk victim. This is someone who was expected

163
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,640
Speaker 1: to be back home and didn't come and this had

164
00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:20,360
Speaker 1: never happened before. Two days later, which was after Easter Sunday,

165
00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,560
Speaker 1: a passerby found a single, high heeled shoe on the

166
00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 1: side of the road and her parents said that this

167
00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,640
Speaker 1: was her shoe. This doesn't mean that she's dead, It

168
00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,559
Speaker 1: just means there's a little bit of a piece of evidence.

169
00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,360
Speaker 1: Do you think that this type of evidence from a

170
00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:42,920
Speaker 1: family's perspective is encouraging or discouraging or neutral?

171
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,160
Speaker 2: What do you think that is just not a good

172
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,480
Speaker 2: sign here. You have a young woman. This isn't a

173
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,040
Speaker 2: runaway situation to where she may just be trying to discard,

174
00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,560
Speaker 2: you know, things that are impractical as she's right, you know,

175
00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,319
Speaker 2: moving on to whatever next life she's really wanting to pursue.

176
00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:06,440
Speaker 2: This is a situation where the victimology suggests that she

177
00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:11,680
Speaker 2: likely was taken against her will, and when clothing items

178
00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,040
Speaker 2: are starting to be discarded, and I've got cases like

179
00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:16,880
Speaker 2: this it never ends up.

180
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,760
Speaker 1: Well really, yes, okay, well let's see where we go

181
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,920
Speaker 1: with this one. The next day they find her purse,

182
00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,240
Speaker 1: which is more bad news, of course, yes, not far

183
00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,080
Speaker 1: from where the shoe had been recovered. Her belongings, including

184
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,560
Speaker 1: the driver's license, were still inside. So this doesn't sound

185
00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,440
Speaker 1: like if she were taken that this is a robbery.

186
00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,800
Speaker 1: And you and I have often talked about if a

187
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,560
Speaker 1: woman goes missing and it appears like she's been taken,

188
00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,760
Speaker 1: it's pretty much never for a robbery. Is that right?

189
00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,720
Speaker 2: You know? That is right anytime a woman is involved

190
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,160
Speaker 2: in where she's been abducted, and it all depends on

191
00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,720
Speaker 2: the past. But there may be a financial motive aspect,

192
00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 2: there may be items of value taken, but more often

193
00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,280
Speaker 2: than not, the reason that woman has been abducted is

194
00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:06,960
Speaker 2: for sexual assault.

195
00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,439
Speaker 1: They also find a lace veil that she wore during

196
00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,640
Speaker 1: confession in the area, so we don't even know if

197
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,319
Speaker 1: she made it into confession yet. They're still trying to

198
00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,160
Speaker 1: gather evidence. Parishioners just said she was around. As of

199
00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,440
Speaker 1: right now, nobody could point to where she went, but

200
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,160
Speaker 1: her intention was to go to confession again, a building

201
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,199
Speaker 1: where people could come in and out when they wanted to.

202
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,440
Speaker 1: It's during the day, so the family's going through hell

203
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,839
Speaker 1: for five days and then it gets much worse. When

204
00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,920
Speaker 1: the morning of April twenty first, so this is five

205
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,880
Speaker 1: days after she went missing, her body was spotted floating

206
00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,520
Speaker 1: in a canal in the city of McAllen, which is

207
00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,160
Speaker 1: where she lived. They find her body floating there and

208
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,280
Speaker 1: I'm assuming you want to hear the results of the

209
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,199
Speaker 1: autopsy now or do you want more details surrounding the body.

210
00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,200
Speaker 2: Is she found clothed, does she found nude? And then

211
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:01,479
Speaker 2: we can get into the autopsy.

212
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,520
Speaker 1: Her body was found covered in mud and was placed

213
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,960
Speaker 1: into the canal after her death, so it doesn't sound

214
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,880
Speaker 1: like she was killed at the canal. It sounds like

215
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,960
Speaker 1: she was dumped there. She was still wearing her blouse

216
00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,600
Speaker 1: which was partially unbuttoned. She was wearing her brawl, her skirt,

217
00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,400
Speaker 1: and her slip. She was missing shoes and stockings, she

218
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,600
Speaker 1: was missing her underwear and some jewelry, and it sounds

219
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,800
Speaker 1: like this is the beginnings of what we're going to

220
00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,600
Speaker 1: find out about a sexual assault. Her condition of her

221
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,720
Speaker 1: body is it was partially decomposed, but the skin was

222
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,000
Speaker 1: largely intact. So this is five days later. We're presuming

223
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,520
Speaker 1: it's been in the canal for five days. The skin

224
00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,520
Speaker 1: was largely intact, but peeling over the hands. Yeah, what

225
00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:44,120
Speaker 1: does that mean?

226
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:48,680
Speaker 2: Well, that's a phenomenon that we see with floaters, bodies

227
00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,520
Speaker 2: that have been in the water for a period of time,

228
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,960
Speaker 2: or bodies that are decomposing but haven't been in the water.

229
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,160
Speaker 3: It's degloving where the skin.

230
00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,000
Speaker 2: On the hand, and it's relatively thick, it will start

231
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:06,040
Speaker 2: to separate away during this decompositional process. And this is

232
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,320
Speaker 2: critical from the perspective of identifying the victim because that

233
00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,120
Speaker 2: outer surface of the skin is where we can get

234
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,160
Speaker 2: the fingerprints in order to identify the victim.

235
00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:16,439
Speaker 3: OK.

236
00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:21,280
Speaker 2: So it's absolutely important to recover that skin if it's

237
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:25,200
Speaker 2: completely detached, And there have been times I've even done

238
00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,880
Speaker 2: this where I have literally inserted my fingers inside the

239
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,120
Speaker 2: kind of the degloved finger of a victim in order

240
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,400
Speaker 2: to roll a print. But it does tell me though

241
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,280
Speaker 2: that you know, she's been missing for five days. In

242
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:42,520
Speaker 2: all likelihood, she.

243
00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:47,200
Speaker 3: Probably was killed near or shortly after she went missing.

244
00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,000
Speaker 1: This is an opportunity for me to ask something that

245
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,160
Speaker 1: I've been wondering for a long time. When decomposition happens

246
00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,920
Speaker 1: on a body, what is the first thing to go?

247
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,360
Speaker 1: My notes say, partially decomposed. Does that mean they aren't

248
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,480
Speaker 1: likely to identify her face? Because your skin is very thin?

249
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:06,839
Speaker 1: Is that what's first to go?

250
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,360
Speaker 2: No, you know, the physical changes to the body all

251
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:15,199
Speaker 2: depend on what happened, where the body's at, the environmental factors, insects,

252
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:16,000
Speaker 2: et cetera.

253
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:18,040
Speaker 3: So you know very early on.

254
00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,640
Speaker 2: Part of the thing to pay attention to, of course,

255
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,200
Speaker 2: is where the insects are attracted to. Flies will come

256
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,720
Speaker 2: to the body, it's shocking, very very quickly after death,

257
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,920
Speaker 2: and they will lay their eggs in moist areas. So

258
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,640
Speaker 2: how the insect activity progresses at that point is going

259
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,240
Speaker 2: to give an indication as to what the insects had

260
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:42,920
Speaker 2: access to.

261
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 3: But absent, you know something that is disfiguring like that,

262
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,200
Speaker 3: and you just have a body that is going through

263
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,440
Speaker 3: normal decomposition. Of course you have the liver mortis, the

264
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,640
Speaker 3: lividity that shows up. The blood settles with gravity. That's

265
00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,560
Speaker 3: something we have to pay attention to. Rigor comes and goes.

266
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,560
Speaker 2: The timeframe of when that happens is dependent on many factors.

267
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,160
Speaker 2: But oftentimes the first thing that you're going to see

268
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,520
Speaker 2: is the starting of the distension of the abdomen because

269
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,240
Speaker 2: your body, I mean, you have this huge population of

270
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,400
Speaker 2: bacteria in your gut, in your intestines, and your body

271
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,480
Speaker 2: keeps that bacteria in check during life, but at death,

272
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,560
Speaker 2: that bacteria now just is able to start in essence

273
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,440
Speaker 2: consuming you from the inside out and starts producing gases.

274
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,560
Speaker 2: And so you'll start to see the body blowed up.

275
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,840
Speaker 2: And if you ever pay attention to roadkill and in

276
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,880
Speaker 2: Texas where it's very warm, you likely have seen animals

277
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,720
Speaker 2: that look like they're balloons, and this is where they

278
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,880
Speaker 2: have completely just distended from all the internal gases until

279
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,560
Speaker 2: that gets to a certain point where the gases escape

280
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,760
Speaker 2: and then the body starts to just cave in on itself.

281
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,240
Speaker 2: Insect activity progresses, and depending on the weather, you can

282
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,360
Speaker 2: get the mom of a kid. There's so many different factors.

283
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,280
Speaker 2: When you have a woman that's floating in the water,

284
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 2: you have different phenomena that are occurring which can speed

285
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,240
Speaker 2: up or slow down different aspects of decomposition.

286
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,080
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the water, because it really messed

287
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,640
Speaker 1: some things up for investigators. Things that we do know.

288
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,080
Speaker 1: She had been sexually assaulted. She had had head trauma

289
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,800
Speaker 1: which they believed happened after her death, which sounds like

290
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 1: it could have been maybe during the transfer from wherever

291
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,960
Speaker 1: this death happened to the canal. But they just said

292
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,560
Speaker 1: head trauma after her death? Is that blood pooling? How

293
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,680
Speaker 1: would they know? How do you distinguish that during an autopsy.

294
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,080
Speaker 2: Well, there are times when you can definitively say that

295
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:48,080
Speaker 2: damage to the body is post mortem, and oftentimes this

296
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,800
Speaker 2: is taking a look at let's say, if you are

297
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 2: dealing with wounding to the soft tissue, and if it's

298
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,800
Speaker 2: to our head, maybe our face or scalp, and there's

299
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 2: a lack of hemorrhaging in the margins of the wound,

300
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,040
Speaker 2: So that would suggest that possibly she was dead at

301
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,840
Speaker 2: the time that that damage occurred to her body.

302
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,520
Speaker 3: I'm a little bit concerned about the water.

303
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,160
Speaker 2: Activity, you know, in terms of possibly leeching out the hemorrhaging,

304
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,480
Speaker 2: and maybe they misinterpreted it. But at certain points, for example,

305
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,400
Speaker 2: once the bones dry out, when you have skeletal remains,

306
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,560
Speaker 2: if there happens to be a fracture, it's a very

307
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,719
Speaker 2: different looking fracture to an anthropologist or pathologist than if

308
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,440
Speaker 2: it's a fresh bone, as if it occurred near or

309
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:33,560
Speaker 2: around the time of death.

310
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:35,960
Speaker 3: So there are changes to.

311
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,080
Speaker 2: The body that occur that the experts look at to

312
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,879
Speaker 2: try to determine. Is it truly anti mortem, which is

313
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:47,480
Speaker 2: really really hard to say for sure. Usually they'll say

314
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,600
Speaker 2: it's what's called Perry mortem at or around the time

315
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,120
Speaker 2: of death, because you can't really say this person's alive

316
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,840
Speaker 2: or dead when this happened. And then there's truly times

317
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,480
Speaker 2: when you can say post mortem after death because they

318
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,480
Speaker 2: can tell the body is not responding as if there's

319
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,240
Speaker 2: any living mechanism or the characteristics of the tissue or

320
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,879
Speaker 2: the bone, the harder substances in the body are reacting

321
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,359
Speaker 2: as if it was still in a state as it

322
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,359
Speaker 2: were when the person was alive.

323
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,560
Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like the water was a big struggle

324
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,719
Speaker 1: with predicting anything because the notes that I have on

325
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,840
Speaker 1: our autopsy are pretty vague. It concluded that while evidence

326
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,399
Speaker 1: of strangulation could not be found, I'm presuming because of

327
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:32,360
Speaker 1: the decomposition, suffocation could have been carried out by placing

328
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,159
Speaker 1: a cloth over the mouth and nose, especially if the

329
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,000
Speaker 1: subject was unconscious. So I don't understand that. Can you

330
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,399
Speaker 1: translate that? Or are they just trying to rule a

331
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,560
Speaker 1: cause of death and this is their best guess based

332
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,639
Speaker 1: on the decomposition of her body.

333
00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,440
Speaker 2: If the pathologists to say there's a possibility of suffocation

334
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:55,560
Speaker 2: or asphyxia, then that pathologist is likely seeing some evidence

335
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,719
Speaker 2: of abrasions around the mouth of the nose with an

336
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 2: object that is placed around her face, or bruising on

337
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,040
Speaker 2: the inside of the lips, you know, when you have

338
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,160
Speaker 2: an object that's being pressed against her teeth. For them

339
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,400
Speaker 2: to conclude unconscious is a little bit of a stretch.

340
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,640
Speaker 2: That would suggest to me that maybe they're not seeing

341
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 2: abrasions on her skin around her nose or mouth as

342
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 2: if she's fighting, but possibly seeing something internal inside her mouth,

343
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,159
Speaker 2: like the bruising of the gums. So it's at least

344
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,680
Speaker 2: something they have to be physically observing something to kind

345
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,240
Speaker 2: of say, okay, this is a possibility the strangulation.

346
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,560
Speaker 1: They couldn't find anything else. I'm assuming there's no bullets, right,

347
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,400
Speaker 1: there's no stabbing. I guess they're just trying to eliminate options.

348
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,760
Speaker 2: Well, the level of decomposition. I do not think she's

349
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,840
Speaker 2: going to be so far gone that they're really that handicapped.

350
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,000
Speaker 2: If she had been stabbed, you know, most of the

351
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 2: soft tissue is still going to be present after five days.

352
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,680
Speaker 2: If she had been strangled, whether annually or through a ligature,

353
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 2: there's a possibility that they would still be seeing hemorrhaging

354
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:10,360
Speaker 2: in the strap muscles, petikia, possibly the hyoid bone being broken,

355
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,760
Speaker 2: crushing of the various cartilage within the next structures. So

356
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 2: the fact that they're saying, well, we don't see any

357
00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,040
Speaker 2: of that kind of rules that out of my mind.

358
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 2: And that suffocation is you know, this is asphyxial death

359
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 2: is a real possibility, or what they are seeing as

360
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 2: a result of somebody trying to muffle her cries. I mean,

361
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,919
Speaker 2: if she's being contacted by the offender inside the church,

362
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,119
Speaker 2: which is somewhat of a public location, and being pulled

363
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 2: to the offender's vehicle, they have to keep her quiet,

364
00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,200
Speaker 2: and so some of the evidence that they're saying could

365
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 2: be due to suffocation, maybe also due to the abduction.

366
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,919
Speaker 1: Process, right dragging somebody. And we actually talked about this

367
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,399
Speaker 1: with the Mabel Mayer case where there was bruising on

368
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 1: this young woman who was murdered behind an abandoned house

369
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 1: and there was bruising and dragging, and investigators just said,

370
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 1: this looks like drag marks that the killer made after

371
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,719
Speaker 1: she was dead and placed in this particular area. So

372
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,640
Speaker 1: that is another part of the job that I'm sure

373
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,920
Speaker 1: is challenging. This water sounds like a nightmare. They were

374
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,479
Speaker 1: able to establish sexual assault, which it was something I

375
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,199
Speaker 1: learned from you about a year or two ago. I

376
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 1: did not really realize that water might not affect whether

377
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 1: or not the pathologist or the corner whoever could recover

378
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 1: semen from inside someone. That being submerged in water didn't

379
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 1: stop them from doing that, and that was the case here.

380
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 1: They were able to collect It sounds like she was

381
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted. They were able to collect some kind of evidence.

382
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 2: So this really shows that you always process these bodies,

383
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,679
Speaker 2: no matter how bad the conditions they've been subjected to

384
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 2: prior to them being found. You always go after the evidence,

385
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,160
Speaker 2: And my saying is, you don't know until you look,

386
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 2: Do not assume. Nope, she's been floating in the canal

387
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,119
Speaker 2: for days. We might as well not take swabs.

388
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: Let's talk about other clues that they had, which frankly

389
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 1: were very few and far between. They found a shoe

390
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 1: print in the dirt near the canal, which normally would

391
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 1: not be a huge deal. People were down in that

392
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 1: canal all the time. But there are strands of her

393
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 1: hair that were found embedded in the footprint. So I'm

394
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 1: assuming this is one of your rules of fingerprint, for instance,

395
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,959
Speaker 1: is innocuous unless it's in the blood of the victim

396
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 1: or the blood of the killer. Would this fall under

397
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,360
Speaker 1: that category for you? That a piece of evidence that

398
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: might not be very strong was just circumstantial, But because

399
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 1: it's really strongly tied to the victim, it becomes more valid.

400
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 2: Most certainly, it elevates the circumstances surrounding that shoe impression.

401
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 3: You have to consider the variables.

402
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 2: You know, there may be somebody that could have run

403
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 2: across her body after she was you know, in the canal,

404
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 2: somehow got the hair on the bottom of the shoe

405
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 2: and then stepped and left it, but it is something

406
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 2: that becomes important, and I, of course I am going to

407
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 2: pay more attention to that particular shoe impression. Now I

408
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,479
Speaker 2: should mention the scientific testing of hair has been found

409
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 2: to be somewhat sketchy over the decades. To conclude that

410
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 2: this is her hair scientifically without modern DNA testing is

411
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 2: going to be a stretch. But I imagine that this

412
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 2: hair was the same color, same hair type. Yeah, the

413
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 2: characteristics were there for them to say, Okay, this looks

414
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:32,880
Speaker 2: like it's the victim's hair.

415
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: It's very vague. Though it's a vague piece of evidence.

416
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: They've determined that the size is somewhere between a men's

417
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 1: eight and a men's eleven. I mean, I'm sure you

418
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: could throw a rock in mcclen during that time period

419
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 1: and hit most men, and that's what it would be.

420
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure how exactly helpful that is. When

421
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: is shoeprint evidence actually helpful? Because I feel like you

422
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 1: and I talk an awful lot about when it's sort

423
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 1: of dismissive and not helpful at all. Has there been

424
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: a case where it has been one based on a

425
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 1: person's shoeprint?

426
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 2: Oh? Well, I wouldn't necessarily put where a case is

427
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: one solely on the shoe impression evidence, but the shoe

428
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: impressions can be very helpful if you have a sole pattern,

429
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 2: an outsole pattern that is rare. Imagine, oh, just maybe

430
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 2: bring up a nineteen ninety you know, the O. J.

431
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 2: Simpson case, and you have Bruno Mallee outsole patterns in

432
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 2: victim's blood at the crime scene, and there's only so

433
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 2: many Bruno Malley shoes you know, of that sole pattern

434
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 2: that have been made of that size, et cetera.

435
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 3: It's significant evidence, you know.

436
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 2: So the rarity of the impression becomes something that can

437
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 2: be helpful. Where now I can go after databases of

438
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: where these shoes are sold, what customer's bottom, et cetera,

439
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: and see if I can develop a list of people

440
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,120
Speaker 2: that need to be tracked down. But also shoe impressions,

441
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 2: can you know where they're located, can become important helps

442
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 2: reconstruct movements of the victim versus the offender. You know,

443
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 2: So it is helpful, you have to pay attention to it.

444
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 2: But oftentimes we recover shoe impression evidence and it comes

445
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: back to the most popular make and model shoe in

446
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 2: the world. Then you go Okay, that doesn't help me. Yeah,

447
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 2: you know, it's not until I recover the suspect shoes

448
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: and something, whether it be shoe comparisons or there's physical

449
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 2: evidence on the shoes like the victim's blood, et cetera,

450
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:32,719
Speaker 2: where things start to really add up.

451
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: Boy, not a lot added up. In this case. The

452
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: water messed them up. They interviewed more than five hundred

453
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: people in McAllen. Nobody had any information. Essentially, very little

454
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: people could give context for what Irene was doing besides

455
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: going into the church with the intention of going to confession.

456
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: One thing that I thought was curious, and I know

457
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: you're going to ask how they know this, but the

458
00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: police insist that Irene had been tied down by something

459
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: that dragged her under and then she became untied and

460
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: it sounds like floated to the top. And what they

461
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 1: recovered after dragging the canal was a clunky slide viewer

462
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: with a long cord that was believed to have been

463
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: the thing that weighed down her body. And I know

464
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: this sounds a little silly, but it becomes important. I

465
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,479
Speaker 1: had no idea what they were talking about, So let

466
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: me show you this photo of what it is and

467
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: since you are considerably older than I, Paul, maybe you.

468
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 2: Know Okay, first, I'm considerably older than you, so this

469
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 2: sounds like elder discrimination.

470
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 3: Sorry, and this what is that?

471
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 1: I have no idea what it is as slide viewers

472
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: what they call it. It looks heavy.

473
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: Oh is this like to be able to like if

474
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 2: you have a thirty five millimeter slide negative? It's almost like,

475
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 2: you know, when when I was a kid, you could

476
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 2: put these little circulars that had tiny little photos in

477
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 2: there and kind of click through it and be able

478
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 2: to view them through like this binocular vision. I'm wondering

479
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 2: if this slide viewer is something where you could put

480
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 2: a single slide in and be able to take magnify

481
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 2: it so you can see it.

482
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:16,239
Speaker 3: Is that what it is?

483
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: This doesn't look to me particularly big enough to weigh

484
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 1: somebody down, but that's what the claim is. And it

485
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: seems a little silly. I would not even bring you

486
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: this piece of evidence except to say that it was

487
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: a big turning point for the case. So let's wrap

488
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: up the mystery person and give me your impression of

489
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 1: who this might be. This is someone who obviously has

490
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: been admired by many, many men, in church, men who

491
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: have come to church to see her. Irene Garza very successful,

492
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: very devout Catholic, someone who had probably a pretty predictable schedule.

493
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: She was a school teacher. She was someone who went

494
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: to church regularly. This happened the day before Easter. She

495
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: was going to go to confession. A lot of people

496
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: saw her there. This is a public church. People could

497
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: come in and out if they wanted. It was very large.

498
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 1: She was well known. She is found with evidence that

499
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: has it sounds like scattered kind of along the way

500
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: to the canal. She has floated in the canal. It

501
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: sounds like police believe that she was tied down by

502
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: this odd device, probably not odd for the times, but

503
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: odd for you and me. There are signs of sexual assault,

504
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: and they aren't sure what exactly happened. They just know

505
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: this is someone who was murdered five days earlier. Who

506
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: do you think we're looking at? What kind of person?

507
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 1: No robbery, It sounds like what kind of person are

508
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: we looking at as of right now?

509
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 2: My focus right now, I think investigatively is really going

510
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: to start to vet who's inside that church. I want

511
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: to know did she meet with a priest in confession?

512
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: What priest is that what is that pre say she

513
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 2: told him? And then is he saying she left the confession?

514
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 2: Did he give her hail? Mary used to go? Do where?

515
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 2: Now she's in the pew for the next half hour

516
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 2: with a rosary, you know, And then who is flowing

517
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: in and out during this timeframe that she's there?

518
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 3: You know?

519
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: This is the core I think in terms of working

520
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: the most logical suspect pool and then considering the possibility, well,

521
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: maybe she did walk out of the church but is

522
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: immediately abducted before getting to her car. And then of

523
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: course it's like, well, who's in the area. You know,

524
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: it's talking to witnesses. Are these people who are attending

525
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 2: the church or do you have other individuals nearby? Is

526
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: this church near any businesses that possibly somebody could see,

527
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: takes a look around and goes both snatches her, you know,

528
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 2: And so this is where you rely.

529
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 3: On those witness statements.

530
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: At this point in time, there's no question this is

531
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: a sexually motivated homicide. But I can't say is this

532
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 2: a serial killer or is this a person offender who

533
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: took advantage of the opportunity. And one of the questions

534
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: that I would have is is would she regularly go

535
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 2: to confession? Did she regularly go to confession at this

536
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 2: time where she establishes a pattern?

537
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: I think those are all really good questions, and hopefully

538
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: I can answer some of them moving forward. Let me

539
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: tell you what has complicated the case for the police.

540
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: As they're working this, they are at the same time

541
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: working another case that could be connected, that could be

542
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: the same perpetrator. So let me tell you about that case.

543
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: There is a woman who is twenty years old in

544
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty. Her name is Maria America Guerra. A few

545
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: weeks before Irene disappeared, Maria had visited her home parish,

546
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: which was located about twelve miles from Irene's church in McAllen.

547
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: This is a different woman who has visited a different church.

548
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: She was in the church and she noticed there was

549
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: a man with dark hair and horned rimmed glasses sitting

550
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: in the pews by himself. She had I've seen him

551
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: there earlier that day and he had been creepily watching

552
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: her from his car, and then now he's inside the

553
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: church with her. She thought it was a little weird,

554
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: but like a lot of people, she thought being in

555
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: the church would be safe. Now, remember this is not

556
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: the same church. This is a totally different church, but

557
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: just about twelve miles away. So she's in the church

558
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: and this man's there, but she says she feels safe.

559
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: She proceeds to go to the altar and knelt to

560
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: prey and she felt someone grab her from behind and

561
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: put a rag over her mouth. Now, remember that's what

562
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: the police had speculated happened with Arene Garza. This is

563
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: the creepy guy who had been watching her. She managed

564
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: to bite down very hard on his fingers and escaped

565
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: the grip of him and ran out and nothing happened.

566
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: But now the police are alarmed because you have one

567
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: woman who sounds like she was about to be attacked

568
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,479
Speaker 1: but managed to get away because she bit his fingers,

569
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: and another woman who's dead who seems to be of

570
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: the same demographic, early twenties and you know, young Hispanic women,

571
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: and both things happening in a church. Who do we

572
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: have here? Are we having someone who is targeting women

573
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: at churches? If these are connected, well.

574
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: Potentially, Now I get very very interested in terms of, Okay,

575
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 2: who is going to be going to both of these churches?

576
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: Because within maybe a particular geographic region. There are select

577
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 2: church employees that will move between these various facilities, you know,

578
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: So that is going to be something I want to

579
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: pay attention to because that could potentially give me a

580
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 2: somewhat limited suspect pool who flows between these two churches.

581
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: Right, So let's limit the suspect pool pretty quickly, because

582
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: this story gains steam when they start trying to figure

583
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: out how they could connect to the evidence between these

584
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: two cases and if it's the same perpetrator, when they

585
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: make public this slide viewer, this odd device I showed you.

586
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: You and I were both confused by someone came forward

587
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: and claimed it. And it was a priest who was

588
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: at the church. And he was the priest who says

589
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: he took Irene Gorza's confession the night that she left

590
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: and she disappeared. No I know. And he was a

591
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: man named father John Fight, and he became very well

592
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: known later on. Let me tell you about John Fight.

593
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: He was a twenty seven year old priest. He had

594
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 1: recently finished his seminary training and he had been in

595
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: the area for about a year. Some people described him

596
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: as bright and well mannered, but other people said he

597
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: was aloof and a little bit of a loner. Honestly,

598
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: people would probably say the same thing about me depending

599
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: on what day.

600
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 3: No, never, never, you a loof.

601
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: He was inconspicuous enough, and when police jotted down his

602
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: physical description, he was a man with dark hair and

603
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: horned room glasses who sounds very similar to the woman

604
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: who said she was goggled at the other church and

605
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 1: then attacked. So now we're looking at a priest.

606
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 2: Based on the set of circumstances, it most certainly is

607
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: not surprising that it's somebody that is within the church structure.

608
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 2: As we know from Irene's circumstance, she goes into the

609
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 2: church and never comes out. Does this priest does he

610
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: have a residence within the church or an office space

611
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,439
Speaker 2: that is limited access? That would be something I would

612
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 2: be paying attention to, because maybe he could have taken

613
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 2: her into this limited access area where now that is

614
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 2: where the sexual assault hers and possibly the homicide occurs,

615
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 2: and then when the time is right, he could move

616
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 2: the body to a vehicle he has access too without

617
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 2: anybody seeing that, and then drive off and dispose of

618
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 2: the body.

619
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, things are looking not so great for John Fight

620
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: because of all the things you're talking about access that

621
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: he had. His name started to come up more regularly

622
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 1: because he told people that he had been the person

623
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: who had taken Irene Garz's confession that night. And the

624
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: problem was he kept changing his story. So first he

625
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 1: said he met with her that night she went missing.

626
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: He told the police that she had visited him to

627
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: discuss a question of conscience. We have no idea what

628
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: she was going to tell him, or if that's the truth.

629
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: He sent her to the sanctuary to confess, which would

630
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: have been a typical course of action for a priest

631
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: in that situation. Obviously, he's saying, yes, I saw her

632
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: that night, and I had good reasons she requested me.

633
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: The problem was that he then changed to say that

634
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 1: he told Irene to go to the rectory, which is

635
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: where members of the clergy lived. So he says, go

636
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 1: to the sanctuary first, but then he changed his mind

637
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: and said go to the rectory. This would not have

638
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: been normal at all for a priest to say that. No,

639
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: I'm not Catholic, I don't know much about it, but

640
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: I know you're saying this would not be normal.

641
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 2: Also, well, you know I haven't practiced in so long

642
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 2: a lot of my knowledge about the sanctuary versus the

643
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 2: rectory comes from another case of a nun who was

644
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: killed on the monastery grounds and learning about, you know,

645
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 2: the priests and their limited access spaces that they had

646
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,280
Speaker 2: on those premises. So in this case, he is telling

647
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: this young girl, after confession, go to the rectory where

648
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 2: the clergy live. Yep, he is now isolating the victim

649
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 2: from a public space within the church because that rectory

650
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 2: is going to be limited access. So that is a

651
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 2: red flag. What is the motivation of sending this young

652
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 2: woman to the rectory right now? I would say it's

653
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 2: because he's getting her closer to his residence where now

654
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 2: he can spend one on one time with her.

655
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the evidence that they begin to see.

656
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: Just on his body, he has broken glasses. He said

657
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: that he had been fidgeting with them while listening to

658
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: parishioners and he accidentally broke his glasses. He had scratches

659
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: on his hands, which he said were caused by scaling

660
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: his home's second floor building balcony to get inside after

661
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: accidentally locking himself out, and then he had a cut

662
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: on his finger. But we've talked about you and I

663
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: cut ourselves all the time, So these are all things

664
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: that he's trying to explain away. Of course, this sounds

665
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: like he's had an altercation. I'm assuming you agree with that.

666
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: Well, depending on the look of these scratches, you know,

667
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 2: that's what I would have to see. Are the scratches

668
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 2: consistent with his explanation or are the scratches more consistent

669
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 2: with a human hand and fingernail. You know, does Irene

670
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: have longer fingernails that would actually leave scratches. If there

671
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 2: are scratches due to a struggle with Irene, then there's

672
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,959
Speaker 2: potentially maybe some bruising and other things that he would

673
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 2: have acquired during that fight.

674
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: They start interviewing the people who saw him that Saturday night.

675
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: They said he was acting strangely. They said that he

676
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: was coming and going from the sanctuary and it was

677
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 1: so disruptive that he had a backup in his confession line.

678
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: So he was coming and going and staying busy. And

679
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: here there are droves of people waiting for confession because

680
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: I guess it's the day before Easter, so this is

681
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: a time when he should have been down there taking confessions,

682
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: and he's it sounds like doing something else. So he

683
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 1: can't account for all of his time during this time period.

684
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 2: Okay, so let me summarize this. At this point, Irene

685
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: goes to confession. What's his name, father, John Fight. Okay,

686
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 2: so Irene goes to confession. She confesses and he admits that,

687
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: you know, she confess to him in the confessional. He

688
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: tells her to go to the rectory, and he's admitting

689
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,399
Speaker 2: that the slide viewer found out at the canal by

690
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 2: her body is his right.

691
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: But I had nothing to do with it, you know.

692
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: I took her confession and that was the end of it,

693
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: and that's it. And actually John Fight has bigger worries

694
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: than Irene Garza. John Fight is probably a little bit

695
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: more concerned with Maria America Guerrera, who was the woman

696
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: from the other church, because she picked him out of

697
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: a lineup. She said, that's the guy who was creepy

698
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: and staring at me and I saw him in the church.

699
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 1: That's the guy I bit And they look at his

700
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,720
Speaker 1: hands and there appears to be a bitemark on his hands.

701
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: So he's questioned for Maria's attack. Attempted sexual assault is

702
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: what they're saying. While he's also being questioned about Irene Garza.

703
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: They have a dead victim who they can't definitively connect to,

704
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,879
Speaker 1: but they also have this live victim who says that's

705
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: the guy. That's absolutely the guy. While they are trying

706
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: to pursue whatever investigation they can get together of Irene

707
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: Garza when there's not really that much information. I'm assuming

708
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: they looked at his car. They just didn't have enough

709
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: to charge him for Irene. They pursued this intent to

710
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: rape charge with Guerrera and it was a hung jury. Okay,

711
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: so they don't have enough for Irene, but they thought

712
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 1: they had enough, and instead of going through the process again,

713
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: fight decided to plead no contest to aggravated assault five

714
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: hundred dollars fine, and he walked five hundred dollars for

715
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: aggravated assault. Is that what would happen?

716
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 2: Now?

717
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: Isn't that a felony? Now? Or you know better than

718
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: I do?

719
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:42,919
Speaker 3: Yeah?

720
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 2: No, I mean this would be a felony. I don't

721
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 2: see where, like in the case of Maria with what

722
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: was done to her, where a prosecutor would let him

723
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 2: off with just to find and basically that's like a citation, right,

724
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 2: It's the lowest level misdemeanor where you're just being fined

725
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,919
Speaker 2: no jail time. I mean, he would probably be having

726
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 2: to do some prison time in this day and age.

727
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 2: I am perturbed that that's all he got on Maria's case,

728
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: especially especially knowing the evidence at this point against him

729
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: an Irene's case. This is where authorities, prosecutors, they have

730
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 2: to look at this with a bigger vantage point. This

731
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 2: guy is a public safety threat and they need to

732
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: keep him isolated from the public as they continue working

733
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 2: Irene's case. If they don't feel that they have enough

734
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 2: to hold him to charge him with Irene's homicide, then

735
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 2: Maria's case is how you keep him in custody in

736
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 2: the public safe while you build the case against Irene.

737
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 2: But to let him back out with just a five

738
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 2: hundred dollars fine, that's ridiculous.

739
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 1: I agree. I don't know if they wanted to take

740
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: on the Catholic Church. I don't know if they just

741
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: thought either of these cases were just winless for them.

742
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: They wanted to get him out of town. I don't

743
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 1: know what the motivation was, but regardless, he was allowed

744
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: to go. And then you think the way things should

745
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: go is the Catholic Church should say get out, we

746
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: don't want you here and defrock him, and sadly that

747
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: is not what happened. They just moved him somewhere else.

748
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: You know, at least in the past that that seems

749
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 2: to have been sort of the mo of the Catholic Church,

750
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: whether it be purposeful to cover things up or whether

751
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 2: it just be out of ignorance in terms of who

752
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 2: is this person and what he is capable of. You know,

753
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:43,959
Speaker 2: they may have been in a state of denial. There's

754
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 2: just no way, you know, one of our priests could

755
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 2: have done this. But right now the evidence is stacked

756
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: against him. In both of these cases an abduction, attempted

757
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 2: sexual assault on a girl, and then the other one

758
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 2: is a sexual assault homicide.

759
00:42:59,360 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 3: Of a girl.

760
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:04,280
Speaker 2: It's frustrating to me because this is how you see

761
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 2: more victims start to pop up, because these guys slipped

762
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 2: through the cracks.

763
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: Now we're going to travel through time because as I said,

764
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,959
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church did not defrock him. The Catholic Church

765
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: moved him. So he was in Texas, he went to

766
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: a monastery in Missouri. And there are a couple of

767
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 1: key people who initially do wrong, but then they finally

768
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: do right. And the first one is a monk named

769
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: Dale Takaney, and he was tasked with providing Fight with

770
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 1: spiritual counseling. And upon his arrival Tacne this monk says

771
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 1: that John Fight confessed. The problem is is that he

772
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: didn't say anything for a long time, and when he

773
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: finally did, let me tell you what he said. This

774
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 1: is the confession as documented in my friend Pam's Texas

775
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 1: Monthly article. Father Fight had asked her to come to

776
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: the church rectory and had heard her confession. There After

777
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: the confession, he had restrained the woman. Tacne thought that

778
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: she might have been bound and gagged, but he was

779
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: not certain, and he had fondled her breasts Before he

780
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: returned to the sanctuary to hear confessions. He had moved

781
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: her to the rectory basement because she was gagged. Later

782
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: that evening or in the days that followed, he moved

783
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 1: her to another location. Then on Easter Sunday, he put

784
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: her in a bathtub and placed a bag over her head.

785
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 1: He heard her say, I can't breathe, I can't breathe,

786
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: Tacne recalled. When he came back later on that day

787
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: or early evening, he found her dead in the bathtub,

788
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: and then that night, at what hour I'm not certain,

789
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: he put her in the car that was available to

790
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: him and removed her and said he dropped her off

791
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: along the roadside where there was a canal. So many questions,

792
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 1: One do you buy that story? And two why would

793
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: he confess immediately upon arriving at a monastery.

794
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: I think the story has some truth with some falsehoods.

795
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 3: It's the gap. He puts a plastic.

796
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: Bag over Irene's head while she's in the bathtub. She's saying,

797
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 2: I can't breathe, I can't breathe, and then he dismisses himself, right,

798
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 2: and he comes back later as she's dead. So what

799
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 2: he has done is he's minimized himself in terms of

800
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: actually being present at the time of her death. He's

801
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 2: basically going, you know, I didn't actually kill her, which is,

802
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 2: hold on, you put a plastic bag over this woman's

803
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 2: head while she's in a bathtub and she's saying I

804
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 2: can't breathe, I can't breathe, and you just leave her there, right.

805
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,399
Speaker 3: Well, that in and of itself is homicide.

806
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's minimized the actual act, the actual him

807
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 2: inflicting the violence that he hold her down underneath the

808
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: water with the plastic bag over her head. You know,

809
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 2: that's a more likely scenario. And then he's putting her

810
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 2: body in the vehicle. He may have left her. Maybe

811
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 2: he had to go back into the confessional and take

812
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 2: on more confessions and then come back and then at

813
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 2: the right time when he could move her body to

814
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 2: the vehicle at night, whenever nobody's there.

815
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 3: That's what he does. That Why is he confessing at

816
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 3: this point? You know, I've got to.

817
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 2: Think just not thinking at it from a religious standpoint,

818
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 2: which you know, obviously within Catholicism, you know, you confess

819
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 2: in order to purge yourself of.

820
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 3: The sins that you've committed.

821
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 2: I think just as a person, he's been living with

822
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,879
Speaker 2: that guilt and it was just eating at him, and

823
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 2: he just decided, you know what, I'm going to confess,

824
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 2: and I'm confessing to somebody that he perceived as privileged.

825
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 2: This person would never divulge the details of this confession.

826
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 1: Well, he didn't for decades and decades. And when John

827
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 1: Fight was done with this monastery, they transferred him to

828
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: a rehabilitation center for troubled priests in New Mexico, and

829
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: he was for six years and eventually climbed the ranks

830
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 1: into a position of authority there where he actually was

831
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 1: in a position to be able to clear a notorious pedophile,

832
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: father James Porter, and moved him to a new parish.

833
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: So this is a guy who had been accused at

834
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: one church of murder and sexual assault and finds himself

835
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: less than a decade later in a position to clear

836
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: and move a pedophile. I mean, unbelievable. Unbelievable.

837
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 2: Well, I guess I didn't know there was such an

838
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: institution for me either.

839
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 3: Troubled priests, Yeah, yeah, And then they're letting these individuals

840
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 3: such as father fight to go out and victimize some more.

841
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: Right, And you know, I've interviewed a woman who was

842
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: a traveling nurse essentially, who had been an addict and

843
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: had stolen medicine from patients for years, and she would

844
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: get caught in her job, would just move her to

845
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: a different facility, or the facility would catch her and

846
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: just make a note, please don't send her back here,

847
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: And she just kept getting moved and moved until she

848
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: finally just quit herself and then went into recovery. But

849
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:16,919
Speaker 1: it was a passing of the buck, and I think

850
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: that both of those situations were really bad. He ends

851
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: up actually leaving the priesthood completely in nineteen seventy two,

852
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: so twelve years after Irene's murder, and he moves to Phoenix, Arizona.

853
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: He has three kids. He settles into this quiet life

854
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 1: as an insurance salesman, and he becomes a spokesperson for

855
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: a local Catholic charity and just moves on and lives

856
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 1: a quiet life until two thousand and two when that

857
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: monk we've been talking about Dale Techni, he was the

858
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: monk that Fight had confessed to. He couldn't keep the

859
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: secret any longer. He didn't have a lot of evidence,

860
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 1: including Irene Garza's name, but he shared what he knew

861
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: with the police, and around the same time, not far off,

862
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: there was a priest name Father Joseph O'Brien who worked

863
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:08,240
Speaker 1: with Fight at the Sacred Heart Church Catholic church in McAllen.

864
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: He also contacted investigators with his suspicions about what happened.

865
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 1: And that is where the second or third act, depending

866
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: on what we're looking at here of this story, goes

867
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: into overdrive. I did not know the Texas Rangers had

868
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 1: a cold case unit. Did you know that?

869
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 3: Actually, yes, of course you did.

870
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 2: And you know one of the notable cases that I

871
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 2: was involved with was in fort Worth, Texas, the Carla

872
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 2: Walker case in nineteen seventy four case. But since that time,

873
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 2: you know, fort Worth has been trying to get a

874
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 2: cold case investigative unit. They have two investigators assigned to it.

875
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 2: But also they have worked closely with the Rangers and

876
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 2: then the genealogy lab that I'm a big fan of

877
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 2: his authorm out of Houston, and they have worked very

878
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: closely with the Rangers cold case unit.

879
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 1: The Texas got a hold of this case and they

880
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: dug into Irene's case file. And because you've got this

881
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: testimony of this monk and this priest, but I mean, listen,

882
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: we're talking about thirty to forty years ago. They have

883
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: this testimony. The district attorney in McAllen, who was a

884
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 1: man named Renee Guerra, said there wasn't enough evidence, which

885
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: is I'm sure something you've heard quite often. Not enough evidence.

886
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 1: I don't want to try the case. That must have

887
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: been incredibly frustrating considering the circumstances. He's the last person

888
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 1: to see her alive, the markings on his hand, the

889
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 1: accusations from the other woman, and you've now got granted

890
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 1: thirty to forty years later, these two men who are

891
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: saying he did something. Does it sound like a case

892
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: that would be very difficult to try just from what you.

893
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 2: Know now, well, with the circumstances, it is a circumstantial

894
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 2: case absent more evidence.

895
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 3: However, I would say it is on the brink.

896
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 2: You know, back in nineteen sixty, I think they probably

897
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 2: could have charged him with Irene's homicide and probably would

898
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 2: have convicted him based on everything. As cases age, oftentimes

899
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 2: you want to see more and I think they need

900
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 2: to spend a little bit more time, you know, freshening up.

901
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 2: They now have two witnesses coming forward, Taechne and the

902
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 2: other father, so that's additional information. And now it is okay,

903
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 2: what physical evidence still exists in the property room that

904
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 2: we can do modern technology on to be able to

905
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 2: help show that he is the offender Irene's killer in

906
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 2: this case, and reaching out to others, you know, trying

907
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 2: to track down other witnesses, and quite frankly, i'd be

908
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 2: looking for other cases.

909
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: I agree, I agree, and you know, no matter what

910
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: the DA in two thousand and two said no way,

911
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 1: We're not going to do it. But an election came up,

912
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: and in twenty fifteen, this sounds very familiar. Twenty fifteen,

913
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 1: the county where McAllen is voted to elect a new

914
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: DA who campaigned specifically by saying I will close that case.

915
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: So they elected him, and the next year, John Fight,

916
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: at age eighty three, was arrested in Arizona, brought him

917
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 1: back to Texas. He was eighty three, had bladder and

918
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: kidney cancer, and went through a first degree murder trial

919
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: that began in November of twenty seventeen, So about six

920
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: years ago. Father O'Brien, who was the man who worked

921
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: with Fight initially in McCallen, had passed away, so he

922
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 1: couldn't testify, but he had spoken to police and they

923
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: had taken down his statement. But the Monk did testify.

924
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 1: Eighty eight years old, got on the stand, remembered clear

925
00:52:56,280 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 1: as day, gave important testimony, and John Fight, on December seventh,

926
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, was found guilty and sentenced to life. And

927
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: we are talking about fifty seven years fifty seven. Yeah,

928
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: so he was convicted almost sixty years after Irene Garza

929
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: was murdered. He was in prison for just about two

930
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: years when he had a heart attack and died at

931
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 1: age eighty seven. So this is what I meant by justice,

932
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: liver of justice. It must have been so heartbreaking for

933
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 1: her family now, and I mean just unbelievable and a

934
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: big deal in Texas and most my friends would know

935
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: this story. It just was really heartbreaking.

936
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 2: Well it's so frustrating because think about this, he was

937
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,240
Speaker 2: out for fifty seven years. Yeah, he lived a life

938
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 2: for fifty seven years that Irene never got.

939
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, he enjoyed his life. He continued to do things.

940
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 3: This was a life he didn't deserve.

941
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we don't know what he did. He could

942
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:01,280
Speaker 1: have done other things.

943
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 2: The two cases, Maria's case, in Irene's case, he's a

944
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:10,280
Speaker 2: serial predator. And you know Maria's case, he's not hiding

945
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 2: behind the cloth, you know, being a priest. You know,

946
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 2: he's just a strange man in the church. He has

947
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 2: access to her just because of who he is. But

948
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 2: he's not portraying himself as a priest, I don't think.

949
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 2: But in Irene's case, she's going to him. He's a

950
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 2: trusted figure. He is using his religious authority to gain

951
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 2: access to her and then ultimately take her life. It's despicable,

952
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 2: you know when you think about, you know, taking like

953
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: an innocent young woman with all this promising future. I

954
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 2: look at what he's doing in those instances. I mean,

955
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 2: he's not a one off guy. He tried to abduct

956
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 2: Maria and then he in essence abducted and killed Irene.

957
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 3: I bet he's done.

958
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:02,800
Speaker 2: Others are and whether it's within the church structure or

959
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 2: whether it's outside the church, you know, this is where

960
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, So he got convicted. I hope under

961
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 2: Texas law that he automatically had his DNA sampled as

962
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 2: an offender of this type of case, and that was

963
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 2: put up into the FBI's code of system. So he's

964
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:24,240
Speaker 2: being searched against other cases as the evidence is being worked,

965
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,879
Speaker 2: and maybe someday he'll be tied to something else, I hope.

966
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 1: So I hope that because I agree with you, I

967
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,359
Speaker 1: don't think this was the only these two cases were

968
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 1: the only cases. Now I want to end with the

969
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: journalist who has done such outstanding work. Pam has written

970
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: a lot about crime at True Crime, and I admire

971
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: her so much because of her research and the amount

972
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 1: of sources that she checks in. I want to read

973
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 1: the last two paragraphs of this because it is chilling

974
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 1: to me, and she and I've been talking about this today.

975
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:57,760
Speaker 1: She met John Fight before he died in two thousand

976
00:55:57,800 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 1: and five, and before he was arrested. He was living

977
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 1: in Arizona, and she went and knocked on his door,

978
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: and she says he stood there for a moment, as

979
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 1: if pondering what to do next. She had introduced herself

980
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 1: and said, I'm here to talk to you about Irene Garza.

981
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 1: There were many things that he could have said that

982
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 1: he did not, that he was innocent, that Irene's murder

983
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 1: had been a senseless crime, that he was tired of

984
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 1: strangers knocking on his door asking about a terrible thing

985
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,720
Speaker 1: that had happened a long time ago. Instead, he said

986
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 1: something that I would think back to many times in

987
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:35,359
Speaker 1: the weeks to come. The speculation intrigues me, he said. Then,

988
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,399
Speaker 1: as he turned to shut the door, he added, God

989
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: bless you, dear creepy, terrible guy. Miscarriage of justice, even

990
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 1: though he was in prison, still a miscarriage of justice.

991
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

992
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:51,399
Speaker 2: I think part of the moral of this story is

993
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:56,760
Speaker 2: the failure to see the obvious back in nineteen sixty.

994
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is.

995
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 2: Something I've seen over and overvarious levels within the justice system,

996
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 2: is the failure to understand this type of offender. These

997
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 2: types of individuals do not rehabilitate. I hope society is

998
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 2: better today, and I think we understand this type of

999
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 2: offender better, so when they are caught, they are kept

1000
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 2: for life away from public but I'm not sure that

1001
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 2: that's always the case. And if there's some sort of

1002
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 2: undercurrent within a structure such as the Catholic Church that

1003
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 2: is just trying to handle things internally, basically they are

1004
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 2: contributing to other people losing their lives.

1005
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 3: I agree.

1006
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 1: I think that this was a very difficult case to

1007
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 1: report on and to talk about because at so many

1008
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: points this could have changed, and it wasn't. When people

1009
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 1: ask me about the cases that bother me, this is

1010
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: one of those cases that bothers me a lot. That

1011
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:02,440
Speaker 1: he got away with this for so long and so

1012
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 1: many people suspected and knew and just and didn't do

1013
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: anything about it. So moving forward, I thought that this

1014
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 1: was an important case for us to talk about because

1015
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: it is a reminder of exactly what you're talking about,

1016
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: people in authority, trusting people in authority, and just hoping

1017
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 1: for justice in a lot of these cases. And I

1018
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 1: hope you're right. I hope we do end up finding

1019
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 1: out if he did this to anybody else, which I

1020
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: suspect he did. Next week we'll have another case, another

1021
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 1: case in history, and I'll be happy to bring it

1022
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 1: to you, Paul.

1023
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 3: I am as always looking forward to it.

1024
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: Kate, this has been an exactly right production.

1025
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

1026
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1027
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1028
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1029
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Rya.

1030
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1031
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1032
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1033
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1034
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: Bared Bones pod.

1035
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1036
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1037
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

1038
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1039
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.