1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome stuff I 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: Ever Told Your production of I Heart Radio. Recently, we 3 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: had an episode with the always amazing Eves where she 4 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: brought up a fung moy past episode she had done 5 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: on a woman who was no really offensively as the 6 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: first documented Chinese woman in the United States, Like that's 7 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: sort of what she became. Uh So we thought, in 8 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: order to clarify that in case you somehow missed it, 9 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: we would bring back this classic episode, so please enjoy. Hey, 10 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff MOB 11 00:00:54,720 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: Never Told You production of I Heart Radio. And today 12 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: is another episode of Female First with Me, where, once 13 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,639 Speaker 1: again joined by our good friend and colleague Eaves. Welcome Eaves. 14 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: Hello everyone, We're always thrilled to have you. And as 15 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: we're recording this, it is a Friday. It is a Friday. Yes, 16 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: I like I say I say that with such like 17 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:35,839 Speaker 1: I know the day, right? You have to remind yourself. Yeah, 18 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: so you haven't acclined me often of what day it is. 19 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: I'm like, is it okay? Great? I just I just 20 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: have a calengar saying things. That's true. Every morning I 21 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: email Samantha like today on your docket is man, can 22 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: we arrange that? I need that? If you do, I 23 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: used to do that with my ex boyfriend, no joke, 24 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: and looking back, like, I'm so surprised you put up 25 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: with so much of my nonsense for so long because 26 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: I would send him like an email today, We're going 27 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: to do this, this and this and here are some 28 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: other options, and I want to know what you think 29 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: about this. So he didn't ask for this, You just 30 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: took it upon yourself to do it. Uh, he didn't 31 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,119 Speaker 1: ask for it per se. But I was just such 32 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: a bigger email communicator, which is odd looking back. I 33 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: didn't text as much as I emailed, UM, so I 34 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: think it was just sort of a natural he realized 35 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: we would I respond quicker if he emailed me. That's hilarious. 36 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: Text I like to I like to sit with texts 37 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: for a minute, as I feel like they're easier to 38 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: misinterpret because they're usually shorter. But an email you can 39 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: be longer that emojis. You gotta use emojis and emoticons 40 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: to pretend like, hey, look, I'm not being really serious. 41 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: So I'm even worse at that out in emails because 42 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: I don't put those in emails. So I feel like 43 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: I'm even more blunt in emails than I am in texting. 44 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: Your emails are hilarious because they're like no apps and 45 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: no periods, and I'm just like, well, I'm gonna put 46 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: my own emotion on this. Exactly what I'm saying. It's 47 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: like there's nothing I add to it. I'm just like, 48 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: here's the sentence end. Yes, Yes, I'm very professional. Mm hmm. 49 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: That's efficiency, is what that is. I mean, honestly, I 50 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: think you guys, I've worked in a government field that 51 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: I had to get out emails so quickly and I 52 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: try to be as like official as possible, but it 53 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: would just be a literal like ten ten different back 54 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: and forth conversation in one chain that I just like, 55 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: get the stunt, get the stunts. So that's kind of 56 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: in my mind frame. I get it. I get it. 57 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: I feel like I if I had to choose my 58 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: most random skill set, one of mine would be composing emails. 59 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm very good at it. Um it's 60 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: an art form, that's are you proud of that skill? 61 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: I just I'm so sending emails is a pain for 62 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: me sometimes. So is that something that you you take 63 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: with pride. Ann I do, because I do think you 64 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: have to consider how it could be misinterpreted and just 65 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: clear so you're not gonna have more emails than you want. 66 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 1: I don't. I won't say I necessarily like it, but 67 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: I am. I do feel some pride, some pride. It 68 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: is a skill. It's a skill, for sure. Yes, yes, well, uh, 69 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: we are talking about someone with a different set of 70 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: skills today, not email are texting, Um, who did you 71 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: bring for us today? You? Well, today we're going to 72 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: be talking about apon Moy. So her history is very interesting. Um. 73 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: She was another one of those people who I think 74 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: we talked about for a previous episode who there isn't 75 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: a ton about um, And that's very purposeful attentional, like 76 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: who's history gets recorded? But yeah, we're gonna be talking 77 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: about a Moy. So she wasn't the first Chinese person 78 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: in the US, but she was likely the first documented 79 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: Chinese woman in the US. She was the only Chinese 80 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: woman to be exhibited as an exhibited that's in quotes 81 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: as a curiosity because saying that a person was exhibited 82 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: sounds weird, but like technically that's what she was doing. 83 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: She was an exhibition and she was a performer, but 84 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: as as a curiosity before Chinese people began mass immigrating 85 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: to the United States. Um, so she got a lot 86 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,239 Speaker 1: of national recognition in the US. And also it's notable 87 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: to think that there were Chinese men in the US 88 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: at the time, but she was the only known Chinese 89 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: woman who was in the US, So just to be 90 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: in that position is a whole thing. But yeah, like 91 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: I said, there's not a lot known about her life, 92 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: and I think in the past. Something that's a little 93 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: bit different about talking about a fon Mooy today is 94 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: that in the past we've kind of really focused on 95 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: women who we were. We're talking about their accomplishments, like 96 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: their first were the things that were Oh they were 97 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: the first black woman architect in this place, and obviously 98 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: those things are very important, but that the circumstances around 99 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: this first is a little bit different than the previous 100 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: first we've talked about. So I just want to be 101 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: clear that her arrival and kind of tenure in the 102 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: US aren't necessarily like a celebratory thing completely. She was 103 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: kind of trotted out like a show horse, you know, 104 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: like she and of course she as one person can't 105 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: stand for all Chinese people are all Chinese women. And 106 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: so this isn't kind of me saying wow, like look 107 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: Avon boy made it out of China into the US, 108 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: like what a pioneer. Like That's not at all what 109 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: I'm trying to say, because I'm definitely not here to 110 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: uphold all of the isms in all of the problematic 111 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: things that surround her time in the US, like so 112 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: many like there are so many layers to the story. 113 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: There's the xenophobia, there's imperialism, there's racism, there's stativism, there's 114 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: the oddestizing and all that stuff was imparted on Moy 115 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: during her lifetime, and so so I just kind of 116 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: wanted to preface with that, Like this story. I'm also 117 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: not here to paint her story as a tragedy because 118 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: I feel like as a person who has limited knowledge, 119 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: like I'm not a historian of Moy, and also like 120 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: her story in general, there isn't that much documented about it, 121 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: like her time when she was in China before she 122 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: came to the US. So I'm not I don't want 123 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: to paint her story as this tragedy, like the only 124 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: thing that she embodied the only thing that her life 125 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: embodied was performance. That's what we know about her, but 126 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: that's not all of her life. And so I think 127 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: we have to keep in mind, just as we would 128 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: keep in mind as we're watching a movie, like we're 129 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: starting in media risk kind of to be like a 130 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: nerdy like metaphor, like there were things that happened before 131 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: the conversation that we know we're able to have about her, 132 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: and things that happened after that we don't know about 133 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: her that we can't necessarily bring up today because we 134 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: don't know it. And so her value wasn't only instilled 135 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: her all you wasn't only about the performative work that 136 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: you did in the US. So I just want to 137 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: preface with that a lot of what we know about 138 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: her comes from other people as well, like not from 139 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: her own voice, comes from letters, it comes from articles, 140 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: it comes from diaries, it comes from scrapbooks. Yeah, and 141 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: the story is fascinating, and I know in in past 142 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: episodes of Female First, um, we are perhaps me. I 143 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: don't want to speak for both of you, but I've 144 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: had that moment of oh, well, I don't understand all 145 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: the historical cultural context of what was happening in China 146 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: at the time, or in wherever. I mean, even in 147 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: the US. There's just things that I might not even 148 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 1: think to question unless I really really dig into and 149 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 1: into things. Um. So I think that in her story 150 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: is good to keep in mind as well. And it 151 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: is so interesting looking back with our our modern eyes, 152 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 1: where um now you can hop on a plane and 153 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: go to pretty much anywhere. This was a time when 154 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: a lot of Americans had never seen someone from China, 155 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: and that's so I just keep that in mind. Um yeah, right, 156 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: I mean I get the fun experiences of just being 157 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: an Asian woman when I lived in like the smaller towns, 158 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: and even though they know of Asian cultures, still there's 159 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: enough ignorance out there not everyone obviously that they would 160 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: be like what are you, which is the first question 161 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: I would get, And that in itself is kind of like, 162 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: can you imagine what happened when they have actually never 163 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: knew an Asian person in general and then being like okay, seriously, 164 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: what that like? That's kind of I could not imagine 165 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: being just already having to deal with some of the 166 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: confusion and ignorance here today and then going to think 167 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: about the reality of oh my god, what would have 168 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: been like back then, and that kind of that back 169 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: of more than yeah, as you I know, you're gonna 170 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: unfold all this reading about just some of the things 171 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: that they assume about her life and again some of 172 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: the silence and what might not have happened. It's kind 173 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: of like, wow, I wonder how lonely at the same time, 174 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: how much she tried to play into that to be accepted. 175 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, I know we're gonna get that. Yeah, yeah, 176 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: for sure, I and I guess it's like weird. There's 177 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: a weird line where you try to have or I'll 178 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: speak for myself, where I try to have a level 179 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: of empathy about like, well, this is a thing that 180 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: is truly completely foreign to a person, but the way 181 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: in which that was imparted on her, Like you can 182 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: say I've never seen a thing. Oh, I've never seen 183 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: a thing, and then you can say I've never seen 184 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: a thing. How awful is that thing? Like how weird 185 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: is that thing? How strange is that thing? And like 186 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: they did that with her foot binding, which we'll talk about, 187 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: and they did that with her, you know, herself, and 188 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: had a lot of commentary on like you know what 189 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: they thought was right and what they thought should be 190 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: the case based on you know, American white values and 191 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: religion and upbringing and morals and all of those things, 192 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: and try to project what they thought was quote unquote 193 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: right onto onto her culture and her customs and her 194 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's super complicated. I mean, yeah, like thinking 195 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: about what you said, Samantha, just about how today like 196 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: it's already it's a huge thing. To be the only 197 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: Chinese woman that people have seen like period up until 198 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: that time is definitely I can't imagine and I can't 199 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: relate to be the only because I think we're still 200 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: put in positions like that today. I'm still in rooms 201 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: where I'm the only black woman in the room. But 202 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: this is that on a way larger, different, different culture. 203 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, um, I guess we can get into her 204 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: story now. Yeah, any you mentioned not knowing what China 205 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: at the time was like art, I'm not specifically China 206 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: at the time. Any you mentioned like not necessarily knowing 207 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: the context around things that were happening in specific cultures 208 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: and nations at the time. Um, and China at the time. 209 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: I think it's worth talking a little bit about the 210 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: background of the context in this case, just because it 211 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: figure so much into the story and the way that 212 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: people viewed her. And obviously I can't go through the 213 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: whole history of the place as the largest China in 214 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: a short amount of time, so this is going to 215 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: be simplification. And obviously the history is more complicated than this. 216 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: But this is during the Ching Dynasty, which lasted from 217 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: the mid and obviously to my pronunciations I know are 218 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: not nuanced when it comes to Chinese, but yeah, so 219 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: it last it from around the mid sixteen hundreds to 220 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds. It was generally prosperous. Um population 221 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: was growing majorly in a big way during some part 222 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: of the Chem dynasty, and there was restricted trade and 223 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: relations with the West. Yeah, in the seventeen fifties, Western 224 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: trade was restricted to the southern part of Canton guang 225 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:08,359 Speaker 1: Joe today. But um, as the demand for t increased 226 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: and the Industrial Revolution came along, people in our Britain 227 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 1: was looking for more markets for manufactured goods and so 228 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: they tried to trying to extend that out to China 229 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: and establish Western style relations with the Chinese. But by 230 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: the early as you can imagine, um when trade and 231 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: commerce and like relations starts, conflict starts to be a 232 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: part of the pot as well, um, when people start 233 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: to stick their hands and things. So Western countries began 234 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: to be more engaged in conflicts with China as they 235 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: were scrambling to kind of get access to Chinese products 236 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: and markets for European and US trade. So yeah, there 237 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: was this insular kind of isolationist situation that was happening 238 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: in China. Um when it came to Chinese people leaving 239 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: China and Western people coming to China. That was a 240 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: part of it. Also, as I mentioned briefly earlier, afong 241 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: Moy her feet were bound. That was a practice that 242 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: grew a lot during the Chain dynasty, and the Manchu's 243 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: attempted to ban that practice of footbinding, but they weren't 244 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: able to do so, and the Han Chinese were They 245 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: were the ones who mainly practiced footbinding um, and they 246 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: continued to do so, and it did limit women's physical mobility. 247 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: And so anyway, people from the US didn't visit China, 248 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: So it wasn't like there weren't any Western people or 249 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: people from the U s specifically in China. There were 250 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: and there were people who were lived in the US 251 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: who had never been to China, who were interested in 252 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: it and had other depictions of China and saw it 253 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: as this mystical, far away place. And yeah, so there 254 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: were like landscape scenes on Chinese ceramics that made their 255 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: way to the US and kind of paining China as 256 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: this picturesque place. And people were also really into the 257 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: idea of Chinese women and foot binding when they found 258 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: out about it, and there was this air of mystery 259 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: around that as well. Um, And I mean, there's obviously 260 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: so much problematic stuff when it comes to the way 261 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: that people viewed and spoke about Chinese women and footbinding 262 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: and all that stuff back then, But I kind of 263 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: think of it as this way where they're like portraying 264 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: Chinese women as these cryptids. It's like, oh, this a 265 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: list of unicorn or like a big foot that I've 266 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: never liked seen. Maybe I'll get to see it one day, 267 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: Like I have no idea how this creature works, type 268 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: of situation. So that's kind of a little bit of 269 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: background when it comes to China and views of China 270 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: and how those were developing at the time. And as 271 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: we'll get to a little bit later, those did change, 272 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: those views did evolve over time. We have a lot 273 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: more for you listeners, but first we're gonna pass for 274 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: a quick break for word from our sponsors. Everybody, thank 275 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: you sponsored. So onto the story of a fog Boy 276 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: and how she got to the U S. So there's 277 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: not much known about her personal family history before that time. 278 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: This is kind of where her story starts. Generally, there 279 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: were the traders Nathaniel and Frederick Carne, and they were 280 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: in the business of importing foreign goods to the US, 281 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: and they have their own backstory, but today is not 282 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: about them, so we won't talk about I love it. 283 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: So that included goods from China, and those Chinese goods 284 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: were things like handkerchiefs, like shawls, fireworks, baskets, fans, watercolor paintings, 285 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: and a bunch of other items. So these guys decided 286 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,719 Speaker 1: to develop a marketing scheme and what do you know, 287 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: along with Captain o'bar. So they did this with Captain o'beer, 288 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: and that would help with selling their goods, and they 289 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: wanted to Their whole scheme was exhibiting a Chinese woman 290 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: in New York and they wanted to surround her with 291 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,959 Speaker 1: Chinese decor and furniture so that they could sell their goods, 292 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: but they would kind of use the woman as the 293 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: centerpiece to bring people in, and then once they were there, 294 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: they would scour her whole appearance and her customs and 295 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: everything that she did. But in the meantime, all the 296 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: things that she was surrounded by and be like, oh, like, 297 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: my precious, you know, all of these shiny furniture and 298 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: decor and items that they would love along the way 299 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: and hopefully be tempted into buying them because middle class 300 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: white women were had a little bit more time and 301 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: resources to be able to get such things, and the 302 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: morals and the values around being able to acquire those 303 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: things was also something that was developing at the time. 304 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: I know y'all can talk about it and probably like 305 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: have you know, done research on it as well, But 306 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: the storied history of white folks putting people of different 307 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: ethnicities and customs and cultures on display is not something 308 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: that's limited to a fung moy. So I know y'all 309 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: have probably heard of Start Department or the quote unquote 310 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,479 Speaker 1: Venus hot and Ty who was put on display human 311 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: zoos that were really popular in Britain, and so called 312 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: freak shows and Chang and a Bunker who were the 313 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: who they call the Siamese twins, who were conjoint twins 314 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: who were put on display as curiosities. So a f 315 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: Moy was objectified and kind of dehumanized in a similar way. Um, 316 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: but I don't want to take all of her agency 317 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: away from her, because she did have agency as well 318 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: and made choices that's worth being, you know, recognized that 319 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: yes she was tried it out, and yes she was 320 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: put on display, and yes she was brought over from China, 321 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: but there was agency in her story as well. So 322 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: like oh Bear apparently reached an agreement with a fan 323 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 1: boy's father who was likely a Cantonese merchant or comfordor 324 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: and her father got money out of the deal. But 325 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: apparently Oh Beer also promised to bring Moy back to 326 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: China in two years. Spoiler alert, That did not happen. 327 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: She stayed in the US for a lot longer than 328 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: two years. Oh yeah, do we know did she ever 329 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: make it? She didn't go back, right, No, she We 330 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: don't know if she ever went back or not. I 331 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: think the most we can do is speculate on whether 332 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: she went back to China or not, like what happened 333 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: after she left the U S. Has I read somewhere 334 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: that she made gone to Europe at one point in time? Yeah, possibly, possibly, possibly, um, 335 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: But there's not really any record of her after a 336 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: certain point in the US, so she didn't. She came 337 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: to the U S. In eighteen thirty four and a 338 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: Fon Boy was a name that was probably given to her. 339 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: She was on Chinese, which is surmised because of her 340 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: foot binding um, and her her family background wasn't recorded 341 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: when she arrived here. And this was before the times 342 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: of the gold Rush. Like I said earlier, this is 343 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: before mass Chinese immigration to the US. And she was 344 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: likely around sixteen, probably no older than nineteen, so she 345 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: was young. Um. And when she came to the U S. 346 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: Was at that point where she became the first documented 347 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: Chinese woman to enter the US. So she arrived on 348 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 1: a ship called the Washington under Captain o'bear. She had 349 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: come from Canton. Articles and there are a bunch of 350 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: articles on her like that you can read, which are bad, hilarious, like, yeah, 351 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: it's a lot going on in these articles, but it 352 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: said that she was There was one that says she 353 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: was four ft ten inches tall, and that her feet 354 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: were just four inches long, since she wore quote unquote 355 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: irons since she was twelve years old, and it said 356 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: that she would soon start accepting visitors at Number eight 357 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: part place in New York, and at first, articles gave 358 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 1: her different names before she was given the name Afong Boy. 359 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: There was one, for instance, that gave her the name 360 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: Miss Ching Chung Foo. I don't know where they got 361 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: that name from, but that was the name that they 362 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: gave her in one article. That article was in the 363 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: New York Commercial Advertiser, And so there were other names 364 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: that she was given as well that I don't know 365 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: the the source of. I don't know where those names 366 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,360 Speaker 1: came from. Obviously a lot to be said about somebody 367 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: naming somebody when they get to the US, and also 368 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: not necessarily knowing anything about Chinese culture or having ever 369 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: seen a Chinese woman before yep. I don't know where 370 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,120 Speaker 1: they came from. Um. But she did have an attendant 371 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,239 Speaker 1: who would translate for her, so she didn't know how 372 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: to speak English at the time. She had an attendant 373 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: who would translate for her, and at the place where 374 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: she would be exhibited, which they were setting up when 375 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 1: she got over here. Um, and there will also big 376 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: various objects of Chinese curiosity around her. Um. The price 377 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: of that mission was fifty cents. There were some earlier 378 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: sources that said twenty five cents, but it looked like 379 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: they bumped it up after a while, and children under 380 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: twelve were half that according to articles there. Of course, 381 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: we're a bunch of physical descriptions of her appearance, and 382 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: in articles and in letters, and so by way of 383 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: somebody else's description of her, not her description of herself, 384 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: I will tell y'all what they said she looked like. 385 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: So there was a November article in the Vermont Courier 386 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: that described her this way. She is short, but rather 387 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: robust in stature. Her features are pleasing, her forehead high 388 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: and protuberant, and her face round and full, with two 389 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: languishing black eyes placed with the peculiarly it's a hard word, 390 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: that is really hard, obliquity of her outer angle, which 391 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: characterized a Mongolian. I guess that's how you pronounced that 392 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: variety of the human race from which these people are descended. 393 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: So the article later says that she was quote much 394 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: pleased with our country and not at all homesick. I'm 395 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: not sure. I'm really not quite sure how they reached that. 396 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: I'm assuming. I'm assuming it's an assumption, because the article 397 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: doesn't say that she said it. It says it is 398 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: said that, So I don't know if those are words 399 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 1: from her mouth or not. But as you would imagine, 400 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: all of the things that we were talking about earlier, 401 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: like the nativism and the patriots, is all those things 402 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: that are probably happening I have to do with that. 403 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: But that's my assumption as well. Yeah, So over the 404 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: next decade, there were a lot more articles written about 405 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: a fonoy Um, And as you can see about that 406 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: kind of description and what we've talked about earlier, a 407 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: lot of them were very orientalist, mothering and really grossly 408 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: doting and patronizing um. And I'll pull out a quote 409 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: from an article that tal Zog wrote in teen that 410 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: was called the start of American Accommodation of the Chinese 411 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: Aphong Boys experience from eighteen fifty UM, just because I 412 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: feel like it's a good way too to put it um, 413 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: And this is what said. Her very presence as the 414 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: first recorded Chinese woman on American soil prompted a heated 415 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 1: national discussion regarding how to accommodate the Chinese living among Americans. 416 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: A two tier paradigm that emerged from this dialogue disparaged 417 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: Chinese culture while extending paternalistic care Toimi, pushing her toward acculturation, 418 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: which was to be realized in a symbolic way after 419 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: her disappearance from the exhibition stage. And that is the 420 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: paternalism that's just so apparent in her story. Is it's 421 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: so gross, and like to also think that she was young, 422 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: like she was actually very young at the time as 423 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: a as a layer to that, and that that eventually 424 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: did turn into hostility and specifically anti Chinese sentiment and action. 425 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: Um of course, but it's kind of important to layer 426 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: that in what was happening in the US at the 427 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: top two, which was obviously many things, like many things 428 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: are happening at once in the eighteen thirties, but some 429 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: of the things were like Andrew Jackson was president, the 430 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: Indian Removal Act became law in eighteen thirties, so just 431 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: a few years before A fat Boy got to the US, 432 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: and of course millions of people were enslaved in the 433 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: United States. So there was an idealistic view of China 434 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: at the time, the Opium War still had started taking 435 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: place yet that would start happening soon. But there was 436 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: this view of China that was influenced by the goods 437 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 1: and by the letters of people that have been there. Um. 438 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: So it was very very narrow view of what China 439 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: and Chinese people were. If you can't even you can't 440 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: even really group that into a whole thing. So but 441 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 1: that that was it was a very limited view. So 442 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: it's it's really unclear exactly how many people went to 443 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: see ff On Boy, but it was in the thousands. 444 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: Some people didn't record their experiences with her, and most 445 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: of them were of the middle and the upper middle classes. 446 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: After she got to the US, there were some really 447 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: odd stories that popped up about her in the newspapers. 448 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: There was one that she had never seen a left 449 00:26:52,359 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: handed person before. Okay, yeah, there was ones that were 450 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: saying she disappeared, um or she left or something like that. 451 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: But when her exhibition finally opened, people came to ogle 452 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: her and her bound feet, and according to newspapers, kind 453 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 1: of in those early times, she didn't really like it 454 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 1: when men tried to get a closer look at her feet, 455 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: but wasn't as opposed to it when women would try 456 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 1: to get it closer look at her feet at Tongue 457 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: was the name of her interpreter, and he would help 458 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: her communicate with visitors and also make sure that she 459 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: would get out of her seat to walk around across 460 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: the room for people from time to time. And there 461 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: were plenty of people in New York in the beginning 462 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: who did go to see her, but some did object 463 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: to the way she was displayed as exploitation. Some people 464 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: objected to the fact that her feet were bound, saying, 465 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, it's a disgrace that she was being 466 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, harmed by her feet being bound. Um. And 467 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: just generally, I guess being and clear about like the 468 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: custom of foot binding itself, um, and working through their 469 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: feelings and thoughts on that after finally seeing it in person. 470 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. We have a little bit more for you, 471 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: but first we have one more quick break for work 472 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: from her sponsor, and we're back. Let's get back into it. Yeah. So, 473 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: after her time in New York, she went on tour 474 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: to other places across the US. For instance, she went 475 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: to New Haven, she went to New Orleans, she went 476 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: to Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, and she even ended up in 477 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: Cuba and she would sing songs in Chinese and she 478 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: was learning English all the while. And she she even 479 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: met with Andrew Jackson in the White House. And it's 480 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: not quite clear exactly what the reason for that was, 481 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: but she did. And Captain o'bear and the Carnes did 482 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: profit from her ticket sales, but they made more in 483 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: the long run from the sales of the Chinese goods, 484 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: like the ones that were in display in the rooms 485 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: that she was in. So things like vass mirrors, lamps, chairs, 486 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: all of the sort of decordive objects of furniture were 487 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: things that they were able to sell because of her exhibitions. Yeah, so, 488 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: of course the whole foot binding thing was the thing 489 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: that was an anomaly or like so fascinating to so 490 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: many people who visited her and got really um invasive 491 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: at times when people wanting to her to uncover her 492 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: feet and measure her feet. And there were physicians actually 493 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: in Philly who examined them. They begged to examine them, 494 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: and they got to she scented and they took measurements 495 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: and they published those measurements in the newspaper and later 496 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: I think it was in Charleston when she uncovered her 497 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: feet again and this time for the ticketed public to see. 498 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: So the story goes on and on like that of 499 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: her in all these cities, in these exhibitions, acting as 500 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,959 Speaker 1: a performer, introducing real, live in the flesh Chinese culture 501 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: and Chinese personhood two people. And those exhibitions created US 502 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: interests and called Chinese culture and society, which there already 503 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: was before, but it kind of hyped that up in 504 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: addition to selling the goods. And she didn't really have 505 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: a home though, so she was just traveling all the 506 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: time to all these different shows, and she really depended 507 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: a lot on her managers. And everything wasn't so sweet 508 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: with the Carns though, Like everything wasn't always good with 509 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: their business. Um they fell on hard times when the 510 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,719 Speaker 1: Panic of eighteen thirties seven hit, which was a kind 511 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: of a financial crisis that kind of led to a depression. Um, 512 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: So they were bringing in so many goods but didn't 513 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: necessarily have the audience or the consumers to be able 514 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: to pick that stuff up. And then all this other 515 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: stuff and in the US economics was happening at the 516 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: same time that didn't bode well for the business, and 517 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: Afon Moy around that time was supposedly abandoned Um and 518 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: lived in poor conditions in New Jersey, and she spent 519 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: several years there according to documents, But interests in goods 520 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: Chinese goods did resurface later in the late eighteen forties, 521 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: and in eighteen forty eight she and Tom Thumb shared 522 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: an exhibition space under P. T. Barnum, whose history is 523 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: like a whole other thing, um that is a lot 524 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: of displaying of like it's super controversial history. But she 525 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: fell out of favor with Barnum after a while as well. 526 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: And Moi was in the US until around eighteen fifty 527 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: as far as we know, like that's not the official date, 528 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,479 Speaker 1: saying like, oh she left after that, but at that 529 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: point records started of her disappeared, um, And that's kind 530 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: of where her story in letters ends, like where her 531 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: story in writing ends, as far as we know. And 532 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: that was also around the time things were changing a 533 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: lot in the U. S I mean, during her time 534 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: here that we do know about, we know things were changing. 535 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: So the mass immigration of Chinese people to the US 536 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: begin in the late eighteen forties early eighteen fifties, views 537 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: of Chinese people were changing, so Americans were increasingly to 538 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: writing her clothing and her customs and Chinese clothing and 539 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: customs in general, and her religious beliefs and Chinese religious 540 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: beliefs were being criticized by moral reformers and other Christians 541 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: in the US and the Opium Wars. Like I mentioned earlier, 542 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: we're starting up and trade with China, like Chinese US 543 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: relations and Chinese goods. All of that was changing at 544 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: the time, and it was a build up to kind 545 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: of I mean, so much stuff was happening at this 546 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: at the time, but there was also kind of things 547 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: that happened later around the eighties when the Chinese Exclusion 548 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: Act was introduced and very specific anti Chinese legislation UM 549 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: and actions were being taken on in federal and local scales. 550 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: So it kind of just feels like this bubble in 551 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: time um afon Moise story does, where she was there 552 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: to see that transition. It was also part of that 553 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: transition of while this mystical place that China was and 554 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: then wow, this place that maybe isn't so great in 555 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: our eyes that we thought before, you know, we feel 556 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: a certain way about it now. Um and all this 557 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: nativism creeping in all this you know, racism and in 558 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: those kind of some and that's creeping in. So yeah, 559 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: it just feels like I really wish I knew a 560 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: lot more about her story and like what happened to 561 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: her after after Yeah, and it is looking back at 562 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: what we do have, it is such a it's strange 563 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: looking at ads with her in them. And um, I 564 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: would recommend to anyone who's interested in learning more because 565 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: it is a very interesting story, um looking into that 566 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 1: and uh huh, Yeah, it is just such a specific 567 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: time and to read some of it, it's so kind 568 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: of pro American and saying, look, compared to this, how 569 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: much better, how more much more superior we are, um, 570 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: especially towards the end, as you say, when attitude shifted. 571 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, I wish we knew more about her too. 572 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: And I know there's a lot of interest because isn't 573 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: there a movie that there's a book? But was a 574 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: play about other play? Yeah? Yeah, okay, yeah, And I 575 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: didn't see the play itself, but what I read about 576 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: the play was that it was kind of attempting to 577 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: be from a f on war's perspective, which is a 578 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: lot that we haven't gotten through documentation since it was 579 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: from other people's perspectives, and obviously that was that's something 580 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: that I would love to know more about. Two, like 581 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: what did aff On Boy herself think about? And even 582 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: in the phrasing that people would give from the interpreter 583 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: a tongue, I was like, is this really what she said? 584 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: Or is this what you wanted to tell people that 585 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: she said? Yeah, right, yeah, I know. I I would 586 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:40,439 Speaker 1: love so much to know the motivations for her, even 587 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: though it was her father was involved in that decision, 588 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: but just how does she felt and thought and when 589 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: she was making this journey and then when she arrived. 590 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: There was one report I read, because it was back 591 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 1: and forth, that that was possible that she left to 592 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,800 Speaker 1: send money back to the family, the father or something 593 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: like that. But I don't know how in of this 594 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: is true. I think that was just one report out 595 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: of you know, the majority was saying that it was 596 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,919 Speaker 1: a father that pretty much said she could go, rather 597 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: than the other way around. But I just wondered if 598 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: that was possibility as well, because it's, yeah, it's story 599 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: like those way, you don't have a lot of understanding, 600 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: and because she does disappear, which kind of names like 601 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: the theme for this time frame for many of historical 602 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: like figures um that you kind of wonder what did happen? 603 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 1: And and for me like was it tragic? Was she 604 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: able to get out of it? What happened? Right? Yeah? 605 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: And I would I would love to know her thoughts 606 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: on the performance, like, yeah, what was she really interested in? 607 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 1: Like did she continue? I know she went on to 608 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: barn them, but after that she still continued to perform. 609 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: Did she enjoy it as a livelihood or was it 610 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: just something that she had to do out of necessities, 611 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: like you said, to send money back to her family, 612 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: or yeah, what was her agency? In her own words 613 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: as well? So so many questions eight yes, same questions 614 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: mysteries of history as they say, Okay, I have heard that, 615 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: but yeah, that makes sense. I say that all the time. 616 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: Maybe it's just me, he's heurism and anyism, but yeah, 617 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: it's it's almost tragic to say because she was put 618 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,879 Speaker 1: on a display at the same time, like I saw 619 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: one report saying again, this is just probably an assumption 620 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: again a bigger stereotype of her being a quote lotus blossom. 621 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: On one hand, in her like uh, you know, mannerism, 622 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: but then also the perpetuating but she was fierce tiger 623 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: as well. Like those two stereotypes came into play at 624 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: the same time, like how are you both how is 625 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: she both playing like that? But why was that the 626 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: descriptor for her? And that was like the perpetuating of 627 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: the continued stereotype of Asian women in general. Yeah, and 628 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 1: we've talked about like um as Western countries were getting 629 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: these depictions of um Asian women Chinese women for the 630 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: first time and fetishizing and exoticizing that and things you 631 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: get like Madama butterflies happening, that kind of whole Asian 632 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: dollar stereotype, which we talked about. And then I was 633 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 1: fascinated with this. I learned this is I mean, I 634 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: haven't dug too deep into this, but I learned that 635 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: that's why t is sort of viewed as feminine and 636 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: coffee is more masking because we associated tea with China 637 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 1: with Asia and yeah, yeah, and um just things like 638 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: that where you it really shows how big these impact 639 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: these stereotypes have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He didn't figure a 640 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: lot into the story of the stuff that the Carns 641 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,320 Speaker 1: were importing and was accessible, like a lot of cheaper 642 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: teas that were coming from China were accessible to a 643 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: lot of people in the US at the time. Um. Yeah, 644 00:38:54,360 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: it's so layered and so so many stories within the story, 645 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 1: and she's kind of a mystery on our own because 646 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,919 Speaker 1: you don't really hear from her or any perspective from 647 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: her in general. Yeah, yeah, my, but um, the story 648 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: is fascinating and I am glad you once again you 649 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: brought something to my attention that I had never heard 650 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 1: about before. I've never heard of alread either. I love it, Yes, 651 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,359 Speaker 1: thank you as always, Eves. I can't wait to do 652 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: it again. Where can the listeners find you? You can 653 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: find me on the line at eve stef co and 654 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: eve steffic on Twitter I am at not apologizing on Instagram. 655 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: You can also listen to the podcast This Day in 656 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: History Class, which is a daily podcast about things that 657 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: happen to history and birthdays in history. And you can 658 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: also hear me on I'm Popular. Yeah, and you should 659 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: do go check all of that out listeners. Um, and 660 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: in the meantime, you'd like to email us, you can 661 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: our email is stuff Media mom Stuff at iHeart media 662 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,359 Speaker 1: dot com. You can fight us on Twitter at mom 663 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast or on Instagram at stuff I Never Told You. 664 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: Thanks It's always to your super producer Andrew Howard. Thank you. 665 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You 666 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: the production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from i 667 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: Heeart Radio is the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or 668 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,720 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.