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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Very soon after Stephen and

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Speaker 1: Diane's marriage in November of nineteen seventy three, the two

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Speaker 1: eighteen year olds found themselves unhappy. Stephen failed to be

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Speaker 1: the sort of husband the new missus Diane Downs had

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Speaker 1: hoped for. In addition to his roving eye, he told

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Speaker 1: Diane that he wanted to wait a few years before

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Speaker 1: starting a family, but Diane wouldn't have any of that.

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Speaker 1: According to Anne rule in Small Sacrifices, Diane was determined

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Speaker 1: to find another way to attain the singular love and

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Speaker 1: devotion that Stephen denied her. Without telling Stephen, she easily

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Speaker 1: became pregnant in nineteen seventy four at age nineteen, and

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Speaker 1: was ecstatic. During her pregnancy, Diane felt serene and complete.

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Speaker 1: She described her fetus as pure love, something that was

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Speaker 1: an extension of herself, and that happiness continued when Diane's

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Speaker 1: first child, Christie Anne, was born. Diane was truly happy,

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Speaker 1: but the more she loved Christie, the more she was

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Speaker 1: repulsed by Stephen. You are hearing from Female Criminals podcast

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Speaker 1: and they are analyzing a woman, a mother, Diane Downs.

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Speaker 1: Diane Downs, if you look at her She's absolutely stunning.

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Speaker 1: She looks like Farah Fawcett in her heyday. Diane Downs

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Speaker 1: goes on to have three children. What went wrong in

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Speaker 1: the marriage with me? Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor now defense attorney,

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Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, Vincent Hill, Crime online dot

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Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter John Limley. So this devoted mom who

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Speaker 1: loves her children to a fault. Everything goes bad so quickly.

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Speaker 1: But I don't understand who is Diane Downs? What can

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Speaker 1: you tell me about her? John Limley? She was a

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Speaker 1: postal worker there in Oregon, as we know, a young mom.

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Speaker 1: She had three children. Postal worker in Oregon. Did Was

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Speaker 1: she working while she had the children? Yes, she was.

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Speaker 1: So she's a working mom. And how many children? Three? Three?

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Speaker 1: That lived with her? Three children? Okay, let me understand something.

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Speaker 1: Was the husband working, Yes he was as well. Now

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Speaker 1: what's the husband's name? What can you tell me about

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Speaker 1: Stephen Downs? Well, they grew up as high school sweethearts.

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Speaker 1: He actually grew up across the street from her house.

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Speaker 1: Her family was very conservative, one of those situations where honestly,

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Speaker 1: her dad especially wouldn't have been happy with with any

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Speaker 1: young man because this was his daughter. But for some

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Speaker 1: reason they were not really fond of Stephen, and that

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Speaker 1: seemed to drive her even more into Steven's arms. And

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Speaker 1: so after high school, after he spent some time in

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Speaker 1: the service, he came home and they got married. So

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Speaker 1: this guy, Stephen Danny Downs, high school sweethearts get married

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Speaker 1: sounds like a storybook relationship. And then things quickly went sideways.

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Speaker 1: And it seemingly all started when Diane Downs revealed she

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Speaker 1: believes her father molested her and that her mother knew

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Speaker 1: about it. Listen. Diane claimed that her father Wes molested her.

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Speaker 1: In her book Small Sacrifices, writer Anne Rules tells the

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Speaker 1: story of Diane's life. Rule details Diane's confusion surrounding her incestuous,

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Speaker 1: abusive relationship with her. Rule writes that she quote could

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Speaker 1: not separate sex from terror and power and pleasure, and

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Speaker 1: she could not understand the sensations she felt end quote.

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Speaker 1: Diane has since said that she made up these stories

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Speaker 1: about her father, but Diane also often did what she

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Speaker 1: called blanking out uncomfortable memories by pretending they never happened.

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Speaker 1: She's also changed stories about her own life, whether or

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Speaker 1: not there was sexual abuse in Diane's home. It was

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Speaker 1: clear that she felt she had a difficult childhood and

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Speaker 1: strained complicated relationships with her parents. By the time Diane

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Speaker 1: reached age fourteen, she seemed determined to distance herself from them.

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Speaker 1: That's when she started going by Diane instead of Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: She cut her hair short and bleached it blonde. She

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Speaker 1: started wearing more provocative, fashionable clothing. Diane also began to

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Speaker 1: show more of an interest in boys. You're hearing again

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Speaker 1: from Female Criminals host Vanessa Richardson and Sammy Night talking

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Speaker 1: about Diane claiming that she had been molested by her father. Now,

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Speaker 1: of course the parents deny it. Is it true? I

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Speaker 1: don't know the answer to that. Of course the parents

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Speaker 1: deny it, but maybe they're telling the truth. However, to

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Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, we also know that changing

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Speaker 1: your behavior. For instance, we know that after high school

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Speaker 1: she enrolled a Pacific Coast Baptist Bible College in Orange County,

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Speaker 1: Boa was expelled after just one year for promiscuity. So

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Speaker 1: revealing clothing, changing your behavior promiscuity before we judge her

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Speaker 1: on that that is a sign that you have been molested. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Nancy that's true. Like you said, the promisecurity, or what

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Speaker 1: we call in the field acting out sort of replaying

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Speaker 1: the trauma over and over again, can be a sign

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Speaker 1: that someone was abused. When they start displaying sort of

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Speaker 1: the sexually inappropriate or promiscuous behavior can definitely be a

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Speaker 1: red flag that abuse has gone on. Well, also, you know,

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Speaker 1: you left out something pretty important, John Lumley. He says

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Speaker 1: she had three children in the home. Well, you forgot

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Speaker 1: to mention the husband how to assectomy. So where'd that

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Speaker 1: third child come from? Bro It seems that raising two

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Speaker 1: children was enough for Stephen, and he had a vasectomy.

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Speaker 1: This didn't stop Diane from getting pregnant again though, and

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Speaker 1: this time, well the first time she decides to have

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Speaker 1: an abortion. She actually named the aborted child Carrie. The

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Speaker 1: Downs moved to Mesa, Arizona, where they found jobs at

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Speaker 1: a mobile home manufacturing company. There is where Diane began

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Speaker 1: having affairs with some of her male co workers, and

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Speaker 1: that's when she became pregnant with this third child. Now, wait,

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Speaker 1: where does the abortion fit in? That is between her

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Speaker 1: first two children and the third one that's born in Arizona,

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Speaker 1: And it doesn't seem it was just a series of affairs.

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Speaker 1: There's a deep psychological issue. Listen to this. This is

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Speaker 1: a detective Doug Welch. She enjoyed having relationships with married men.

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Speaker 1: I think the control factor there was important to her.

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Speaker 1: On her number of occasions, she would start telling us

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Speaker 1: about her boyfriend in Arizona and what a great guy

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Speaker 1: he was and how much she missed him, and how

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Speaker 1: she wanted him to join her in Oregon. No, you

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Speaker 1: listen to me, I have enough. But Diane's boyfriend had

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Speaker 1: no intention of moving to Oregon. He told her it

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Speaker 1: was over, he was going back to his wife. But

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Speaker 1: Diane wouldn't accept it. She keeps writing seductive letters. Her

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Speaker 1: obsession was becoming a fatal attraction for those who simply

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Speaker 1: got in her way. You know that is very very

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Speaker 1: telling to doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. When people become

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Speaker 1: objects to you, when they're simply a speed bump in

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Speaker 1: the road, a hurdle for you to get over, not

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Speaker 1: treating them as actual people, that's got to be a

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Speaker 1: psychological disorder. If not insanity, what is it. No, there

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Speaker 1: are some people that you know, treat people as a

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Speaker 1: tool for their own gratification. And you know that could

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Speaker 1: actually be a part of many disorders, whether you've been

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Speaker 1: abused yourself or whether you have antisocial tendencies. But I

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Speaker 1: agree with you, well, of course this behavior ends up

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Speaker 1: with a divorce, and I can't say the husband had

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Speaker 1: clean hands either, didn't want to have a family. He

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Speaker 1: cheated on her. As they said a quote roving eye.

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Speaker 1: We all know what that means. Take a Lissa to

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Speaker 1: female criminals. Diane divorced Stephen Downs and her new boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: Mac Richmond and his two daughters quickly moved in. But

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Speaker 1: Mack soon realized that Diane was not the person she

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Speaker 1: had appeared to be. At work, Diane was lighthearted and fun.

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Speaker 1: At home, she was angry and cruel. According to Mac,

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Speaker 1: she often called her children to meaning names. She would

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Speaker 1: find the children off to babysitters, or if a babysitter

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Speaker 1: couldn't be found, she would leave six year old Christie

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Speaker 1: in charge. A neighbor reported that Cheryl would often go

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Speaker 1: to her house asking for food because her mother hadn't

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Speaker 1: fed her and she didn't know where Diane was. Prime

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Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. Mac had had enough of Diane

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Speaker 1: and he left her, but Diane had other things on

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Speaker 1: her mind while she was with Mac. She had been

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Speaker 1: matched with a family looking for a surrogate, and now

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Speaker 1: it was finally time to go to Kentucky and get inseminated.

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Speaker 1: Diane easily conceived, and she went back home to Arizona

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Speaker 1: as happy as could be, literally filled with new life.

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Speaker 1: Diane was always happiest when she was pregnant, and this

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Speaker 1: time was no exception. But while Diane was on a high,

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Speaker 1: her children were not faring quite as well. According to

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Speaker 1: neighbors and Diane's co workers, the mistreatment Mac observed was

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Speaker 1: not uncommon. Diane often left the children alone, dressed them

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Speaker 1: improper relief for winter weather, and occasionally hit them. But

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Speaker 1: Diane didn't think she was doing anything wrong. She saw

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Speaker 1: herself as a good mother, someone who was meant to

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Speaker 1: bring children into the world. Let me understand that you're

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Speaker 1: hearing the podcast Female Criminals. I don't understand, John Limley,

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Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. You're telling me that

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Speaker 1: this woman who has had an abortion, not judging that

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Speaker 1: is legal in our jurisprident system. But then she wanted

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Speaker 1: to be a surrogate mom. Well, okay, maybe you can

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Speaker 1: have a change of heart about giving birth the dichotomy

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Speaker 1: I don't understand. Let me go to Daryl Cohen on this,

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Speaker 1: former prosecutor, current defense attorney. If you're mistreating your own children,

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Speaker 1: why would you get such joy out of being a

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Speaker 1: surrogate for another baby? Nancy. You can't get logical on this.

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Speaker 1: This is an emotional thing. This woman is off the

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Speaker 1: charts and it makes no sense. So those of us

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Speaker 1: who are lawyers and think like lawyers are not going

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Speaker 1: to have any ability to figure out what's going on

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Speaker 1: in this woman's mind. It makes no sense to me.

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Speaker 1: So I can't give you an answer. I just don't

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Speaker 1: have one. You know what's interesting, it's something you just said, Darryl,

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Speaker 1: and I think Bober and Vincent Hill will get it.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, John lenn this is not a slight to you.

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Speaker 1: Once you've been at to law school. And I mean

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Speaker 1: I went into law school as is shakespearean literature major, okay,

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Speaker 1: And when you get in law school it really changes

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Speaker 1: the way you think. You think differently. You analyze everything immediately.

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Speaker 1: Like if I walk into a room, I immediately see

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Speaker 1: one hundred things. Why is there sugar on the counter

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Speaker 1: or has the dog been in here. Why is this?

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Speaker 1: Why is that? Just a million different things and what

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Speaker 1: they mean. So trying to figure out, Vincent Hill, you're

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Speaker 1: a cop turned PI why she wanted to get rid

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Speaker 1: of one baby, mistreat her current children, and then be

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Speaker 1: a surrogate. I mean that just blows our minds. Yeah, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: that makes zero sense at all. I guess it just

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Speaker 1: tells you what kind of psychopaths she really is to

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Speaker 1: even consider doing that and bringing another child into this world.

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Speaker 1: It's just mind boggling. To Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists joining us.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it was her feelings about the abortion that she

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Speaker 1: always wish she could get that child back, but that's

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Speaker 1: not consistent with mistreating her own children. Yeah, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: really make logical sense, Nancy. But sometimes people's behavior is

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Speaker 1: just incomprehensible and it's difficult to tell what their motivations are.

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Speaker 1: So John Limley, she after the divorce with Stephen Danny Downs,

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Speaker 1: who's the father of we know two of her children,

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Speaker 1: and the third one was born during the marriage. Somewhere

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Speaker 1: in there was the abortion. Then we have the Matt

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Speaker 1: the boyfriend, and he moves out. He knews his daughter's

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Speaker 1: move out that's when she starts a surgacy business. How

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Speaker 1: did that work out? Actually, the surrogacy idea comes to

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Speaker 1: her right after her divorce with Stephen, and she during

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Speaker 1: this time spent a few years moving in and out

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Speaker 1: with different men, having affairs with married men, at times,

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Speaker 1: trying to reconcile with Stephen, and finally to help her

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Speaker 1: support her say, hey, wa wa wa wa wait wait wait.

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Speaker 1: I agree with you about the disdain for being with

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Speaker 1: married partners. But John Lemley, I don't like the tone

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Speaker 1: of your voice. Men have affairs all the time and

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Speaker 1: everybody's like, whoa good for you? Women do it and

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Speaker 1: they're a tramp, they're a big Let me just say horror.

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Speaker 1: So you know, John Lemley, But I do agree with

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Speaker 1: you on the married bit. With all the men in

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Speaker 1: the world, why do you have to pick a married

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Speaker 1: one for Pete's sake? You know, no offense, gentleman. But

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Speaker 1: my grandmother used to say menter like buses, just wait

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Speaker 1: fifteen minutes, another one will come right along. So you know,

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Speaker 1: why do you have to pick a married one? Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's neither here nor there. So what happened with the

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Speaker 1: surrogacy business, right editorializing aside. To help support herself, she

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Speaker 1: decided to become a surrogate mother, but she actually failed

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Speaker 1: two psychiatric exams required for the applicants. One of the

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Speaker 1: tests showed that Diane was very intelligent but also psychotic.

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Speaker 1: She found this very funny and would even brag about

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Speaker 1: it to friends. That Diane was finally accepted into a

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Speaker 1: surrogate program, to which she was paid ten thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: after successfully carrying a child to full term. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: that after this experience, Grant Grant, Yes, hey, you know what,

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Speaker 1: It's just it's not worth it. I'm thinking back when

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Speaker 1: I was pregnant with the ends. Oh I nearly died,

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Speaker 1: and so did Lucy. I won't tell that story again,

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Speaker 1: but forget it. Keep the money. So she got ten

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Speaker 1: grand for one surrogacy, and then what happened tohn Linley. Well,

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Speaker 1: right after that, she actually had this scheme in her

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Speaker 1: head where she was going to open her own surrogate clinic,

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Speaker 1: but that venture quickly failed. Then her world turns upside down.

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Speaker 1: I'm letting me come up there. Listen to him, Shelby, Shelby,

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Speaker 1: let's go, Mark, what is it? Just shot my cancers.

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Speaker 1: Judy call a cold is bad. I was trying to

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Speaker 1: get help. I was leaning on the whole. I couldn't move.

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Speaker 1: I just couldn't make my legs move. What's going on?

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Speaker 1: These kids have been shot? Get me out there. He

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Speaker 1: might have followed, as you'd better call the police sooner,

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Speaker 1: but it gets some help. Whoa Her three children are

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Speaker 1: shot by a stranger with bushy hair, as she describes him.

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Speaker 1: And you're hearing fair of faucet and small sacrifices a

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Speaker 1: movie she shot about and dying downs. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to this. The guy's still out there. He's got a gun.

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Speaker 1: I don't know where it took place. She said it

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Speaker 1: was a country road. She said, the gun. Call my pa.

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Speaker 1: I need to call my parents. I need to call

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Speaker 1: him to the police. Hold on, tell me again what

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Speaker 1: happens so that I can tell them. Somebody shot my

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Speaker 1: kids on the Mohawk Road. He was standing a little

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Speaker 1: of the road. It was really dark, and somebody, God,

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Speaker 1: they stopped the crawl. I got left in the world.

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Speaker 1: My kids now, I'm not going there are doing all

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Speaker 1: the him here, They're gonna wait. I'm I want to

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Speaker 1: be there when they wake up. Hut me. How if

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Speaker 1: you just sit down for a moment. As soon as

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Speaker 1: the doctors know something, they'll tell you. He shot my kids.

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Speaker 1: He shot him over and over, and I keep hearing

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Speaker 1: the gun, and he shot me. I'm not a nurse,

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Speaker 1: but I can put something on me, some disinfected. I

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Speaker 1: keep seeing the blood, you know. Robbie was whimpering in

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Speaker 1: the backseat, and I kept saying him, oh cold asleep. Seanna,

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Speaker 1: she would just time she wanted making a sound, and

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Speaker 1: I kept saying her, wake up, Shanna. And Karen was choking,

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Speaker 1: and Seanna never made a sound. She never right. Want

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Speaker 1: your brother, you got the love that he I want

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Speaker 1: his far my fart, and I can't get it. I

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Speaker 1: don't let my kids dying. Don let my kids. I

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Speaker 1: just kept going. I couldn't stop. I said, oh God,

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Speaker 1: help me, just don't let him suffer. Don't let my

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Speaker 1: little kids suffer. So I just kept driving and driving

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Speaker 1: and driving as fast as I could. Can we go? Now?

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Speaker 1: I want to see my kids. I bet she does

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Speaker 1: want to see her kids before they wake up and

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Speaker 1: start talking. That Small Sacrifice is a movie made about

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Speaker 1: dying downs, and that's fair of fauce. It play, Diane

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Speaker 1: Downs herself. That's what she's telling police to John Limley,

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Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. How come all of

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Speaker 1: the children are shot, but she's able to drive and

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Speaker 1: has even bandished her own hand and not them. That's

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Speaker 1: one of the first things that just doesn't make a

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Speaker 1: bit of sense to police at the time. Nancy, it's interesting,

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Speaker 1: no small choice that the producers of that movie small

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Speaker 1: sacrifices made in using that Duran Durand song Hungry Like

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Speaker 1: the Wolf, because according to one of Diane's children, that

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Speaker 1: is the song that was playing at the time of

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Speaker 1: the shooting. WHOA I want you to listen to k

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Speaker 1: e z I TV producer Sean Choppy about what happened

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Speaker 1: at the time, and as Diane Downs gives us a

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Speaker 1: description of the shooter, side panels of the car were

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Speaker 1: covered in blood. There was a young girl in the

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Speaker 1: front passenger seat, another young girl and a small boy

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Speaker 1: who they could hear gasping for air in the back.

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Speaker 1: All three were soaked in blood. The girl in the

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Speaker 1: back seat, Cheryl, was dead. Would I see most of

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Speaker 1: blood coming out of Christie's mouth, because that's what I see.

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Speaker 1: I can't see Danny and I can't see share sharing

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Speaker 1: land on the far Medix quickly went to work on

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Speaker 1: the other two children who were still alive, and then

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Speaker 1: what doctors call nothing short of a miracle, both children

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Speaker 1: were saved, despite Christy having been shot in the chest

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Speaker 1: and Danny in the back. Wow, you're hearing producer Sean

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Speaker 1: Shoppy describing what happened. What would be the motive to

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Speaker 1: Vincent Hill, PI, author of playboit to a murder? Why

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Speaker 1: would you just shoot up a whole car of people?

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Speaker 1: Not a robbery, not a sex attack, not a kidnapping,

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Speaker 1: maybe an attempt to carjacking that didn't work. What was

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Speaker 1: the motive? And we hear her now describing a quote

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Speaker 1: Bushy heared stranger. Yeah, Nancy, I mean according to miss Downs,

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Speaker 1: that was the motive. Then this individual wanted the car.

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Speaker 1: But keep in mind, there's a lot of people in

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Speaker 1: this car and Nancy, who's going to stick around that

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Speaker 1: long and doing all these shots when they can just

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Speaker 1: move on to a different car. So from the beginning

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Speaker 1: it sounds kind of suspicious. Oh, good point, Vincent Hill,

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Speaker 1: good point. You know, Daryl coh and I remember the

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Speaker 1: first carjack murder case. I ever handled. And there was

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Speaker 1: a teen boy standing out in his front yard of

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Speaker 1: the home he shared with his mom and dad by

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Speaker 1: his car, and people came by a carjack him who

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Speaker 1: was trying to get in his car. As I recall,

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Speaker 1: that was just one person. Why would you target a

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Speaker 1: car with three children and a mom driving, Because once again,

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Speaker 1: the logic is not there. It's the emotion and the

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Speaker 1: movement of the moment. You can't make this stuff out.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to k ez ITV producer Sean Chopping

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Speaker 1: would have a motive to do this or if it

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Speaker 1: is just some total stranger. As the night wore on,

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Speaker 1: though investigators and hospital staff were stunned by Down's demeanor,

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Speaker 1: she was not hysterical, not crying. She even left the

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Speaker 1: hospital to show investigators the location of the shooting. He

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Speaker 1: did not take time to point the gun and shoot me, obviously,

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Speaker 1: because he would have shot me the same way he

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Speaker 1: did the kids. When he was swinging in the direction

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Speaker 1: of the keys, firing the gun, he hit my arm.

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Speaker 1: Everybody says, you sure were lucky. Well, I don't feel

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Speaker 1: very lucky. I couldn't tie my damn shoes for about

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Speaker 1: two months. You are hearing Diane Downs in her own words.

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Speaker 1: That is not an actress playing her. That is her

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Speaker 1: describing how she managed to escape a mass shooting of

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Speaker 1: all of her children in her car with just a

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Speaker 1: wound to her arm. That is her own words describing

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Speaker 1: what happened. Take a listen to this. Danny is just crying, real,

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Speaker 1: real soft, so that sound stays in my mind. And

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Speaker 1: the fact that Christie's choking Downs told police a shaggy

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Speaker 1: haired stranger had waved them down. He pulled a gun

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Speaker 1: on them, asked for the keys, and when Downs refused

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Speaker 1: to hand them over, open fire on all three children.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure he didn't intend to shoot my arm. The

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Speaker 1: gun kept firing and firing and firing, and it made

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Speaker 1: was monotonous. It just kept going. It was like a

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Speaker 1: slow motion picture. When he swung around, he was pointing.

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Speaker 1: When he swung around, it hit the tips of my fingers.

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Speaker 1: The gun hit the tips of my fingers, and that

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Speaker 1: snapped me and I went dam a minute. I'm not

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Speaker 1: trapped by a society. I don't care if he is bigger.

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Speaker 1: If I stand here and I say, yeah, here, take

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Speaker 1: the keys, I mean there's nothing I can do. You

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Speaker 1: win because you have the gun. My kids are gonna die,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna let my kids die. And so

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Speaker 1: instead of giving him the keyese I feigned throwing the keys.

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Speaker 1: You are hearing in her own words describing how three

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Speaker 1: of her children are shot, barely breathing, bleeding from the

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Speaker 1: chest to doctor Daniel Bober earlier, we're hearing about how

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Speaker 1: the hospital staff we're concerned because we're calm demeanor, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm defense attorneys always argue there's no playbook for well,

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Speaker 1: this is the title of your book, Vincent Hill, Playbook

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Speaker 1: to Murder, but there's no playbook to murder or playbook

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Speaker 1: to grief. While I find it very convincing, having been

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Speaker 1: a crime victim myself and dealt literally with thousands of

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Speaker 1: crime victims, you know that there is a point maybe

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Speaker 1: you go into shock, and that comes across as being calm,

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Speaker 1: doctor Bober yeatsy. You know they always talked a fight

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Speaker 1: or flight, but it's really fight, flight or freeze. And

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Speaker 1: some people can be calm or under pressure. And you know,

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Speaker 1: one of your guests had said something interesting before about

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Speaker 1: her some of her testing showing psychosis, and when people

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Speaker 1: are out of touch with reality, sometimes their responses are

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Speaker 1: consistent with what you would think, or that's how they

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Speaker 1: would respond or how they should respond. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: speaking of her retelling the events where all of her

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Speaker 1: children are shot, she narrowly escapes with a graze to

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Speaker 1: the arm. Take a listen to Detective Doug Welch. Diane

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Speaker 1: was driving down the road in this direction and about

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Speaker 1: where I'm standing, she said. A stranger appeared and flagged

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Speaker 1: her down. She stopped her car, stepped out with the

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Speaker 1: door open, and said, what's the problem. He replied, I

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Speaker 1: want your car. She said, You've got to be kidding,

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00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: at which time she claims that he pushed her aside,

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00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 1: leaned in the vehicle, and shocked the children. She claims

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Speaker 1: to have fake throwing her car keys off in the field.

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Speaker 1: He fired the weapon and struck her in the left forearm.

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Speaker 1: She then pushed him away and jumped in her car, and,

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Speaker 1: according to her version, roared off down the road to

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Speaker 1: the hospital. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace TV reporter and Jagger,

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Speaker 1: like others, starts asking tough questions. I asked her, I said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I just have one more question for you.

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Speaker 1: Why would you put the towel around your arm. You

400
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: know when your children are bleeding. She said, I thought

401
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Speaker 1: that if I didn't save myself and I bled to death,

402
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: that I wouldn't be able to save my children. Wow. Wow.

403
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: More from female Killers to John Limley. What are, if any,

404
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: the inconsistencies between the physical evidence and her Diane Down's story. Well,

405
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, her story of events

406
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: just weren't holding up under forensic investigation. Mainly, the blood

407
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Speaker 1: splatters in the car did not match her version of

408
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Speaker 1: what occurred, and gunpowder residue was simply not where it

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00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: should have been. Andy made by that exactly, it was

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00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: not found on the hand that there was gunpowder on

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Speaker 1: her arm where there shouldn't have been gunpowder. It should

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00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: have been on the killer's arm instead. Speaking of her arm,

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00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: although broken when shot, that was superficial compared to that

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Speaker 1: of her children. It was also discovered that she failed

415
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: to admit to owning a twenty two caliber handgun, which

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00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,719
Speaker 1: was the very same type used at the crime scene.

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00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: They then find Diane's diary. This is found during a

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00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: police search of the home, and in her diary she

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00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: writes obsessively about the love of her life at the time,

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Speaker 1: Robert Knickerbocker, and of particular interest was the parts about

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00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: him not wanting to raise children. You know something you

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00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: just said, John Linley, really sparked my interestness reminded me

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Speaker 1: very much of Susan Smith. Remember her Daryl Cohen wasn't

424
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: Susan Smith out of South Carolina, and she had the

425
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: three little boys strapped in the car seat and claimed,

426
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: Oh I remember when it happened. I was in the

427
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: middle of trying her case and my longtime friend, now

428
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: Judge Herman Sloan had come in with some type of

429
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: law I needed to get something into evidence. He was

430
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: sitting at the table beside me, and right then the

431
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: sketch came out of the alleged perpetrator and the Susan

432
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,239
Speaker 1: Smith case where all three of her boys drowned and

433
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: she miraculously survived. The sketch looked exactly like my friend,

434
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: the now judge, Herman Sloan, who of course had been

435
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,959
Speaker 1: with me at the time. Just so you know, he

436
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: didn't do it. At the time Susan Smith children were killed.

437
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: Yet another carjacking out in the middle of nowhere at

438
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: an intersection on I guess a dirt road or a

439
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: rural road. Same thing here, Darrel Cohen, her boyfriend, Susan Smith,

440
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,959
Speaker 1: her rich boyfriend, unmarried, did not want children, and bam,

441
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: suddenly there were no children. Darryl, all right, So Nancy,

442
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: all it takes is drive your car on a very

443
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: isolated road, drive into a lake, let them stay there,

444
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: and you get out and oh my gosh, I've been hijack.

445
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: Poof kids are gone, just like Disney, except the bad Disney,

446
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: he said, rather than a good one. Another issue that

447
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: Jackie Howard here in the studio is raised that a

448
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: car came up behind her at the time of the shootings.

449
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: Was it at night? Jack And the car said she

450
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: was going so slowly they had to go around her.

451
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: I wonder what was going on in that car. So

452
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: another issue I have. Vincent hilled Pi, author of playbook

453
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: to a Murder on Amazon. It's her description of the perpetrator,

454
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: all right, just like Susan Smith, just like Sam Shepherd.

455
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: I remember he sat a group of hippies with long

456
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: hair and floppy clothes or hats or something came in

457
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: killed everybody in the home but him. It's a bushey

458
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: aired stranger. Vincent. That's it. That's all I got. A

459
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: bushy haired stranger. Yeah, help me, Nancy. It was nineteen

460
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: eighty four. Everybody had bushy hair, just like with Susan Smith.

461
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: It was a black guy with a beanie cat well

462
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety four, in October in South Carolina, which

463
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: where I was living at the time. Hey, that could

464
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: have been me. So it was just this very vague

465
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: description that would have matched anybody in the area, Nancy.

466
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: So that was red flag number one. Hey, actually, where

467
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: were you that day? Okay, I'll pursue that line questioning later,

468
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: but right now, take a listen to Ka Easy I

469
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: TV producer Sean Choppy ten. She still maintains she's innocent,

470
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: though her story has changed from the bushy haired stranger

471
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: to two men in ski masks to the most recent

472
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: tale that involved a phone call that lured her to

473
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: the road to pick up evidence for a supposed FBI

474
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: boyfriend she had at the time. Was there a time

475
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: when I had doubtd? Yes, there was the first night.

476
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, I had doubts. Dianne had

477
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: been shot in the left arm and she's right handed,

478
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: and I made the comment to the police department there

479
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: that night. It looks to me like Diane did it,

480
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: because if children have been shot in the chest and

481
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: Diane has only been shot in the arm, and I says,

482
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: media looks like she didn't. Guys, you're hearing Diane Down's

483
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: own father, Wes Frederickson telling Kazi that he had doubts

484
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: the very night of the shooting. But there was a

485
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: fly in the ointment. Aside from the so called bushy

486
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: haired stranger who turned into two men in a ski

487
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: mask who turned into an evildoer who lured her out

488
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: with a phone call, the fly in the ointment her

489
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: daughter listen to female killers. The Diane's plan ultimately fails.

490
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: There is a witness who can put her away from murder.

491
00:33:54,800 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: After all, Christie the daughter, and we needed christ to

492
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: get well enough to be able to take the stand

493
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: and testify as to what happened. Christie does get better

494
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: and finally in court tells the world her mom was

495
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: the killer. After diannowns, the stories change and the forensic

496
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: evidence is reviewed, the case goes to trial. Listen to toffee,

497
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: prosecuting attorney Fred Huge would paint a picture of a

498
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: woman obsessed with a married man, who didn't want to

499
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: have kids and who wouldn't see her when children were around.

500
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: We're going to try and push this thing too a fact,

501
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: flighting as quickly as possible, and you'll see that there's

502
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: nothing there. Doctors took the stand and told stories of

503
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: a woman who showed up to the hospital with a

504
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: dead daughter and two other kids clinging to life, yet

505
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: who shed nary a tear. Jurors were taken to the

506
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: scene of the crime. A model of the car was

507
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: brought in. The blood splatters on the outside the car

508
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 1: showing Downs shot Cheryl. Outside of the car, we saw

509
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: pictures of this so called spatter. It's drops when they

510
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: took the kids. They took Chris and Share out of

511
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: the driver's side of the car, and it's blood droplets.

512
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: The children's bloody clothes were shown. But the most dramatic

513
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: and probably most damning evidence came when Christie Downs, now

514
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: eight years old, took the stand. Down's own daughter testified

515
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: against her. Christie Downs was asked by prosecutor Fred Huge,

516
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: do you know who shot Cheryl? Christie said quietly yes.

517
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: The prosecutor struggled to keep his own composure. Who the

518
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: young girl sobbed, my mom, Wow, can you even imagine

519
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: having to testify. I guess your own mom Well, believe

520
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: it or not, there is another twist to the story.

521
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: Listen to this. The trial would last six weeks and

522
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: then on June seventeenth, the verdict came. In the moment

523
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: of truth came early Sunday morning at twelve forty five,

524
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 1: a jury of nine women and three men found Downs

525
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: guilty of two counts of attempted murder and two counts

526
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: of assault. The night before, between the time of the

527
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: verdict and the sentencing, Downs gave birth to a baby girl, Amy,

528
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: who was put up for adoption. Downs received a life sense.

529
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: There was no death sentence at the time, and in

530
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, she escaped from the Oregon Women's Correctional Center.

531
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: She was moved to a prison in New Jersey and

532
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: then eventually moved back to the West Coast to a

533
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: California prison. She calls home today. What wait, wait, wait,

534
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: John Lemley, Am I hearing correctly? How is she pregnant

535
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: during the trial? Yes, this is another inconceivable twist. The

536
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 1: woman on trial for shooting her own children when she

537
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: shows up for the trial, she is pregnant again and

538
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: it is no accident. She even in one of her

539
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: strange media appearances, speaks about the pregnancy. She said that

540
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: she got pregnant because she missed Christie. She missed Danny

541
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: and Cheryl so much. She said, you can't replace the

542
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 1: effect they have you and the love. But she said,

543
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: you can conceive another child and give that love to

544
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: the new child. So it seems that Diane had picked

545
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: someone on her postal route to seduce prior to the

546
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: start of her trial to get pregnant. This is why

547
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 1: people should not be out on bond, Daryl Cohen, Here's

548
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: a woman charger who shooting all three of her children,

549
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 1: faking her own shooting, and why is she out seducing

550
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: a postal worker? Help me, Daryl. There is no logic,

551
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: but I can tell you this. The magistrate was likely

552
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 1: a male, she was pregnant, and they were worried about

553
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: her because she and her pregnant state was someone they

554
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: didn't want to have incarcerated for something that could have

555
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: happened to the child. That's the only logic I can see.

556
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: It makes no sense. I don't think anybody knew. I

557
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: don't think anybody knew Darryl Well at the time, because

558
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: what do you know, John Limley, did the judge know

559
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: when he led her out on bond that she was pregnant?

560
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: She couldn't have been pregnant and at that time was

561
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: not Okay, I'm sorry, Yeah, I didn't know the dates either, Darrel.

562
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: So the judge lets a woman out that has apparently

563
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: shot all three of her children, John Limley, I keep

564
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 1: hearing about attempted murder. Is there a murder charge? Yes,

565
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 1: there is, and that's connected with Sheryl, the child that died.

566
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: So was she found guilty of murder and two charges

567
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: of attempted murder? Correct? Okay, guys, you may be wondering

568
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: about the pregnancy, the little baby that she conceived while

569
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: she was out on bond. Take a listen to this

570
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: On Oprah, Becky says she always do. She was adopted,

571
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 1: but when she turned eight, she started asking questions about

572
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: her biological mother. My mom told me that she was

573
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: in prison, that there was a book about her, and

574
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: when I was old enough, she would tell me more.

575
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: But three years later, Becky still didn't have any answers,

576
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: so she took the babysitter into revealing the name of

577
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: her birth mother, Diane Downs. From there, I went to

578
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: the bookstore. I slipped through the pictures and there was

579
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: a picture of Diane sitting at a table with her

580
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 1: hand up and her fingers were eerily the same as mine,

581
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: like identically, And it scared me, and I slammed the

582
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 1: bookshut and I left. At sixteen, a boyfriend showed Becky

583
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: the TV movie based on her mother's life, starring Fara Fawcett.

584
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: It was then she says the reality of who Diane

585
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: downs was truly sunk in. She's not a mother, She's

586
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,240
Speaker 1: a monster. Wow. Can you imagine carrying that baggage around

587
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: your whole life? But she went to a happy home

588
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: now known as Becky Babcock. You hear her speaking to Oprah.

589
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: You know, John Lemley, you dropped another bomb on me?

590
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,439
Speaker 1: Did you say she escaped? Is this after she gave

591
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: birth to Becky? Right? And this is why she was

592
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: at incarcerated at Oregon Women's Correctional Center in Salem. She

593
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: escaped on July eleventh, nineteen eighty seven, but was fairly

594
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: quickly recaptured just a few blocks away from the prison,

595
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: so she got life behind bars. She escapes, she goes

596
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: back inn she gets five years on the escape which

597
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,399
Speaker 1: I'm sure is going to run concurrent. But here's the deal.

598
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: She's already been up for parole. She first went up

599
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight. You know, she was denied

600
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: at that time. Then she came up in two thousand

601
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,919
Speaker 1: and ten. She was denied in two thousand and ten.

602
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: Now she's coming up next year for parole again. You know,

603
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: she looked like a model straight off of Vogue or Cosmopolitan.

604
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: She actually reminds me of that photo of Fara Faucet

605
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 1: in the red swimsuit that turned into a poster. I'm

606
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: sure all you guys are remember that. But yes, but

607
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: the reality is that she was anything but that. Doctor

608
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, I think I need a shrink, doctor Bober.

609
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: It is so complex. This entire story of Diane downs

610
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: how she wanted desperately to have a family, and she

611
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,439
Speaker 1: tricked her first husband into getting pregnant, started a family

612
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 1: even when he didn't want to. How after he got

613
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: a vasectomy, she got pregnant by somebody else. Then while

614
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: she was out on bond, she gets pregnant. But the

615
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: reality is that she shot all of her children. It's

616
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: just except for the one that was adopted. Becky Babcott,

617
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: and for those of you that are wondering, don't worry

618
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 1: about her two children that lived. The two surviving children

619
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 1: actually went with one of the prosecutors in the case,

620
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: Fred Huge. He and his wife, Choeenne, adopted them and

621
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: they I think recovered as best as you can. But

622
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Bober is so complex. What's going on in

623
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: her mind and the wake of pain she's left behind

624
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: hers almost more than I can take in, Doctor Bober.

625
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: You gotta make some sense of it. Yeah, Nancy, there

626
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be really any linear pattern of reasoning

627
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: here that goes along with anything. I mean, it sounds

628
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: like this woman was just not in touch with reality

629
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: and at times she was ambivalent, feeling like she was

630
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: being pulled in both directions. There's really no consistency here,

631
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: so it's really hard to make sense of what do

632
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: you mean she was pulled in both directions. And also,

633
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 1: just to tell you how gorgeous she was at the time,

634
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 1: she was referred to as Princess die because she looked

635
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: like Princess Diane. Of course behind bars it was Princess

636
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Speaker 1: Die d Ie, so her facade was very different than

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Speaker 1: what was behind. What was lurking in her mind, Doctor Bober.

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Speaker 1: It seems like, you know, at times she wanted kids,

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Speaker 1: but then she did everything she could to not have kids.

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Speaker 1: So there's really no consistency, That's what I'm saying. So

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Speaker 1: right now, where does it stand, John Lyndle. She's coming

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Speaker 1: up for parole again in a couple of months, Yes,

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, when she will be sixty five years old. Hey, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: you know this as well as I do. Parole boards

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Speaker 1: usually look for two things, remorse and accountability, and in

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Speaker 1: both times she's gone before the board, she hasn't shown that.

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Speaker 1: So if she doesn't show that this time, it's going

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Speaker 1: to be the same results. She's going to be back

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Speaker 1: in jail. As justice unfolds. Diane Downs now coming up

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Speaker 1: for parole. Nancy Grace Crime Story is signing off. Goodbye friend,