1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but we still have 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,319 Speaker 1: an amazing show for you today. Former Bernie Standers chief 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: strategist Tad Divine Stop Spy You talk about his new book, 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: How the Democrats Screwed Bernie Sanders. But first we'll talk 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: to Open Secret's own Hillary Brazi about her organization and 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: how it's shedding light on money and politics. Welcome, Welcome, Hillary, Thank. 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 2: You, Mollie. 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 3: It's great to be here, big fan of the podcast. 11 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: All So let's talk about Open Secrets and you guys have. 12 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 4: A lot on your plate here with such democracy as 13 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 4: we call it, it's a good. 14 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,919 Speaker 2: Way putting it. It's a right time we'll call it. 15 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: Yes, So what does the job look like right now? 16 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: And what does the landscape look like right now? Yeah? 17 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 3: To answer that question, it's always helpful to share a 18 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 3: bit of context, because some folks immediately know our work 19 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 3: when they hear our name, and others have not, And 20 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 3: even those who have heard our work or gone to 21 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,199 Speaker 3: our website might not know the history of the organization. 22 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 3: And it actually dates back to the eighties. So I 23 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 3: don't know if you knew that, Molly, I. 24 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,759 Speaker 1: Did know that we did great, but give us the 25 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: history of it. 26 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 3: So I love sharing this story because it's quite uncommon 27 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 3: in today's times. But the genesis of open Secrets actually 28 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 3: began with two senators on opposite sides of the isle 29 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 3: how novel who saw money as a growing factor, a 30 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 3: growing variable in the political and decision making process, everything 31 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 3: from lobbying to the way that candidates do fundraising for 32 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 3: their elections. And these two senators, Frank Church and Hugh Scott, 33 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 3: decided that this information should be made transparent and public 34 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 3: as a part of the accountability ecosystem. And so Open 35 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 3: Secrets actually started out as a three inch thick, fifteen 36 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 3: hundred pages long book, and it was a book that 37 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 3: was literally titled open Secrets, and you can go to 38 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 3: the library, look if your member of Congress and see 39 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 3: who funded them. Eventually, when the Internet was born in 40 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 3: the nineties, they digitized all of that data and hence 41 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 3: today we have the website OpenSecrets dot org. You can 42 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 3: go on there, you can search for your member of Congress, 43 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 3: you can see who funds them. You can see how 44 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 3: much of their money comes from inside their district versus 45 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 3: outside of their district, male versus female donor breakdown how 46 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 3: much money are they receiving from what's called outside spending 47 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 3: or the main vehicle where dark money comes into the picture. 48 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 2: So when we look to today, this iteration. 49 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 3: Of open secrets is very different in that we went 50 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 3: through a merger a few years ago and we now 51 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 3: have all data across fifty states, which means we have 52 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 3: state legislature, candidate, it's governor, you know, any level of 53 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 3: state governance you could imagine, and also the federal data. 54 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 3: So we're really busy right now integrating these major data sets, 55 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 3: especially ahead of the midterms, and making major updates to 56 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 3: our website to just make it easier for you to 57 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 3: understand what this information all means as a voter, as 58 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 3: a journalist, as a professional, as someone who's just interested 59 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 3: and genuinely concerned and engaged as part of this country. 60 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: So let's talk about what are the tensions about this 61 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: kind of transparency and who are the people who are 62 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: likely trying to not share this information or make sure 63 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: this information doesn't get out. 64 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, tension is the best word I think to describe 65 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 3: this process because on the one hand, I think money 66 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 3: on some level is of course inevitable in this process. 67 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 3: On the other hand, I think the scale and the 68 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 3: volume of money that we've seen with our own eyes, 69 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 3: having followed this for as long as we have has 70 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 3: exponentially increased over the last fifteen years, since those court 71 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 3: cases back in twenty ten. So who doesn't want this 72 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 3: information to be public? Of course there's I know, on 73 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 3: one hand, political candidates like our data because it's another 74 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 3: tool for how they run for office and strategize. 75 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: On the other hand, I don't know that they love 76 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:17,799 Speaker 2: all of their ish. 77 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 3: Being out there all the time, so that tension is 78 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 3: a challenge but also useful. And then of course the 79 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 3: ultra wealthy, who, with the rules as they've now been 80 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 3: etched just in general, have greater ways to influence and 81 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 3: get heard by publicly elected officials. 82 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: And these folks love their anonymity. 83 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 3: So there's a real tension with wanting to support candidates 84 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 3: at a very high level while wanting to remain anonymous 85 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 3: in the process. 86 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 2: So there's that, and then we have dark money entering 87 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 2: the scene. 88 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: So tell me about kind of what are the really 89 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: great sort of scoops or the ways and what to 90 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: open secrets has made real difference in the landscape. I 91 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: mean besides the obvious. 92 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, we regularly see eleven plus million visitors to the 93 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 3: site every year, indicating that you know, this information. 94 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: Is a variable when folks go to the polls, and 95 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 2: not just that. 96 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 3: But I can't tell you the number of times I've 97 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 3: been in a conference or even in the public square 98 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,239 Speaker 3: and you know, you chat with somebody on the subway 99 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 3: and they ask, what are you up to? And folks 100 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 3: have heard about our site, and I've heard some people 101 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 3: even say, you know, I've looked up your website to 102 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 3: understand how companies or brands that I buy from are 103 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 3: contributing politically, or people who work there are contributing politically, 104 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 3: and I might make a different choice with my wallet 105 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 3: based on what I learned there. 106 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 2: So we help. 107 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 3: We like to say, people connect the dots behind how 108 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 3: and why decisions get made in Washington beyond a two 109 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 3: year or a four year election cycle. So we always 110 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 3: encourage folks to get educated come to our site. We 111 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 3: have of in the tens of thousands citations of our 112 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 3: data across the media and journalism landscape. We're kind of 113 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 3: the single source of truth aggregating a lot of this 114 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 3: information across the FEC and at the state level, and 115 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 3: so from a key backbone input to the accountability ecosystem, 116 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 3: but also to helping voters make informed choices, where I 117 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 3: would say, a pretty critical resource for the infrastructure of 118 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 3: this democratic republic. 119 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: Do you think that there are other sort of give 120 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: us some of the senses of like just like superbacks 121 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: or candidates where it's useful what we can say, Yeah, 122 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: in terms of the donations and how they work. 123 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, So if I were to break it down pretty simply, 124 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 3: anybody like if you decided to run for our office 125 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 3: tomorrow as a candidate, you could raise money directly from people, 126 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 3: but of course there's a limit on how much they 127 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 3: can give to you, So that's, you know, considered a 128 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 3: direct contribution to Molly's campaign. Then there's this other vehicle 129 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 3: that we call outside spending. And this really was born 130 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 3: in twenty ten with a Supreme Court case called Citizens United, 131 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 3: and it enabled this process of committees that can get 132 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 3: set up in service of any kind of interest, and 133 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 3: then these committees could receive unlimited money and spend unlimited 134 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 3: money either for or against a candidate, and that's often 135 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 3: the vehicle is called the superPAC, which many have heard of. 136 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 3: That is where we see extreme amounts of money being 137 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 3: funneled into our election infrastructure. For contexts, the last major 138 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 3: presidential election cycle, the total cost of elections was around 139 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 3: fifteen billion dollars, and if we go. 140 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 2: Back to two thousand and eight, that was less than half. 141 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 3: And so we're seeing this exponential increase in the overall 142 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 3: amount of money pouring into our election infrastructure, which dwarfs 143 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 3: what other nations, by the way, see in terms of 144 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 3: spending in elections, and other countries email us all the time. 145 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: They're puzzled. They want to know how. 146 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 3: So much money makes it into this system. They also 147 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 3: find it fascinating that lobbying is a legal activity. I 148 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,559 Speaker 3: think that is interesting. We cover lobbying data as well. 149 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 3: It is a legal activity. You have to file if 150 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 3: you're doing lobbying activity. And we saw a record spending 151 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,679 Speaker 3: year last year at five billion dollars in lobbying. 152 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: Changing better literally be spent better doing anything else, right, 153 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: And I mean to your question, these super PACs, we're 154 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: seeing a new playbook being played out by many of 155 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: these new industries that are popping up, from crypto to AI. 156 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 2: We've got data centers rolling out. 157 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 3: Basically, these industries are not only lobbying, but they're now 158 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 3: setting up a superpack of their own to be able 159 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 3: to give campaign contributions either or against candidates that support 160 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 3: the agenda that they hope to see laid out in 161 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:05,599 Speaker 3: terms of regulation. 162 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: What do you think those sort of solve is. Since 163 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 1: you are someone who spends a lot of time thinking 164 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: about money in politics. 165 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 3: As an organization, I'll start by saying we don't specifically 166 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 3: endorse any policy shift around this issue of money in 167 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 3: politics because for us, it's important that the data remains. 168 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: Agnostic, right, nonpartisan. Right. But I'm just saying, like, when 169 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 1: you see the way that the spending affects the campaigns, 170 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: it's obviously not positive, right. 171 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,079 Speaker 3: I would say, I think we are way overdue as 172 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 3: a nation for major comprehensive reform when it comes to 173 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 3: our campaign finance infrastructure. 174 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 2: I mean, the. 175 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 3: Last comprehensive policy that was passed in a bipartisan fashion 176 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 3: was in the early two thousands from a Congress standpoint, 177 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 3: So it is time the American public wholeheartedly agreed. 178 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 2: I mean countless surveys. 179 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 3: Pew has done these surveys CBS, they ask is US 180 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 3: democracy at risk? Eighty percent or more people say yes. 181 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 3: When they ask what's the main threat to US democracy? 182 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 3: The highest answer that everyone ranks is money in politics. 183 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 3: I mean, it's ubiquitous across both sides of the aisle 184 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 3: that people are fed out with seeing this amount of 185 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 3: capital poured into our election and political finance infrastructure. Now, 186 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 3: the challenge is that the people in power who have 187 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 3: the ability to make the rules somewhat benefit of course 188 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 3: from the status quo, and so there's very little will 189 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 3: power to change the rules of the game. And then 190 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 3: you've got the whole infrastructure of both major parties that also, 191 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 3: you know, get caught up in this and they create 192 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 3: jobs for people and people working on campaigns, and you 193 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 3: know there's money involved. So what I think is really 194 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 3: interesting is there are a lot of attempts at passing 195 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 3: policy happening at the state level. You've got also an 196 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 3: entity that's trying to pass an institutional amendment that basically 197 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 3: would give states the rights to. 198 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: Limit the amount of money and politics. 199 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 3: I think, in my view, the best case scenario is 200 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 3: that Congress has a wake up call and sees that 201 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 3: the US population increasingly is untrustworthy of their leadership and 202 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 3: that will not vote well for either side of the aisle. 203 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 3: And it's worth having some serious conversations about how to 204 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 3: pass reform that really makes it clear and limits to 205 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 3: some extent the amount of money that's able to go 206 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 3: into the system. 207 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, so interesting and also really really important at this 208 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: particular moment. I mean, just wild. Do you think people 209 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: are still getting in trouble for things like straw donors 210 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: or do you think everything like that just goes through 211 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: super PACs. 212 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: Now, it's a good question. 213 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 3: I think there's little activity here and there. But the 214 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 3: other challenge is that the FEC, which is the main 215 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 3: governing body that is tasked with enforcing campaign finance law, 216 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 3: has essentially not had a quorum of commissioners to be 217 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 3: able to make decisions or enforce or really pursue the retribution. 218 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 3: So that's a real challenge as well. 219 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: That's so insane. I mean, we're really like they're basically 220 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: just defunding the government so that it can't work when. 221 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 2: It comes to the FEC. 222 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 3: That certainly seems to be the case, especially this year 223 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 3: leading up to the midterms. I think there's much to 224 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 3: be desired from an oversight perspective. 225 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: So crazy, Hillary, Thank you, thank you, thank you for 226 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: joining us. Thank you. 227 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:49,439 Speaker 4: Mollie Tad Divine is a former strategist for Bernie Sanders 228 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 4: and the author of How the Democrats Screwed Bernie. 229 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Tad. 230 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 5: Great to be with you, Molly. 231 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: So we're talking about this book you've written about Bernie Sanders' 232 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen camp. I would love you to talk about 233 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: sort of how you got because he worked on a 234 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: ton of different campaigns, from Ducaucus to care So how 235 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: did you find yourself sort of in the insurgent camp. 236 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 6: Well, in nineteen ninety six, Bernie Sanders approached my old firm, 237 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 6: which was called Trum Divine. Donlin, Mike Donald, Bob Strumm 238 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 6: and I had a firm and it was at the 239 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 6: behest of Peter Defasio, who was one of his colleagues 240 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 6: in the House. Peter had run in a special election 241 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 6: for Senate and we wound up Mike and I wound 242 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 6: up doing his campaign, and he suggested to Bernie, who 243 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 6: almost lost his seat in nineteen ninety four. It was 244 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 6: a very bad year for the Democrats and for the 245 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 6: Independence with the Democrat. So he wound up hiring my firm, 246 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 6: and that's when I began working for him. I worked, 247 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 6: I did his ninety six campaign. He almost lost in 248 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 6: ninety four. We won by twenty six points in ninety six. 249 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 6: And then in two thousand and six, a really wealthy 250 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 6: guy came back home to Vermont and took him on 251 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 6: and spent seven million dollars. Now spending seven million dollars 252 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 6: and vermalt is the equivalent of spending three hundred and 253 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 6: fifty million dollars in California. 254 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 5: Okay, you know, and so and Bernie beat him by 255 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 5: thirty points. 256 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 6: We never ran a negative fad and so I had 257 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 6: this relationship with him going back. And when he approached 258 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 6: me and I read about this in the book in 259 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 6: twenty fourteen, late twenty fourteen about running for president, I 260 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 6: was really stunned. I had no expectation that Bernie Sanders 261 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 6: was going to run for president of. 262 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 5: The United States. 263 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 6: But after checking it out with my partners, because I 264 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 6: knew if we said yes to him, we were saying 265 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 6: no to the entire establishment of the Democratic Party, particularly 266 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 6: if Billary wound up being president. You know, we decided 267 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 6: we would do it. So I signed on and jumped in, 268 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 6: you know, with both feet, and it was a wild ride. 269 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: So your supposition is that, and I'm not disagreeing or agreeing. 270 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to be clear here, is that basically 271 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: he got screwed. 272 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 5: It is. 273 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 6: I wish I could take credit for writing that title, Molly, 274 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 6: But to be honest with you, my editor suggested it 275 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 6: to me Ian Strauss. With my editor, i'mon and Schuster 276 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 6: and the publisher at the time, actually came up with 277 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 6: that title. And initially I rejected the title because they said, listen, 278 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 6: it sounds too much like Trump. I don't really, that's 279 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 6: not my tone. And we went through about fifty titles 280 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 6: and none of them really lived up to that title, 281 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 6: and so I yielded and went to it. And it 282 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 6: is my subposition because I believe that Bernie Sanders was 283 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 6: the victim of a nominating process that was rigged against him, 284 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 6: and it was rigged in a lot of ways. And 285 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 6: I won't get into all the details, but I will 286 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 6: tell you when the Democratic National Committee, who's supposed to 287 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 6: be the neutral arbiter of the process, is a wholly 288 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 6: owned subsidiary of the Clinton campaign. 289 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 5: It's not a fair process. 290 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 6: And this was something that was proven demonstrably when the 291 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 6: wikileak's emails came out in the summer of twenty sixteen. 292 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 6: We could see, with hundreds of thousands of literally emails 293 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 6: because they hacked into John Podesta, her chairman's email, that 294 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 6: the Democratic National Committee was being controlled by the Clinton campaign. 295 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 6: They did special deals with the Clinton campaign, They intervened 296 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 6: and I write a whole chapter about this in the book, 297 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 6: to take away our voter file, which is, you know, 298 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 6: one of the most precious things in a campaign. That's 299 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 6: how we communicate with voters. So we had to go 300 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 6: to federal court to seek conjunctive relief in order to 301 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 6: get back the tools we needed to try to win 302 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 6: the campaign. So that's what I believed it was, you know, 303 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 6: the DNC, the Democratic establishment, a series of super packs 304 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 6: that coordinated with the Clinton campaign that undermined him and 305 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 6: as a result, it was not a fair process. And 306 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 6: even some of the leaders, like when I talk about 307 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 6: the Nevada Caucasus, for example, John Ralston, who I think 308 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 6: is the most respected journalist in Nevada who understands if 309 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 6: they better than anybody else, wrote an op ed piece 310 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 6: in USA Today where he said explicitly that Harry Reid 311 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 6: intervened on behalf of Hillary threw the caucuses to her 312 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 6: because he understood Senator Reid. And by the way, I 313 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 6: liked Harry Reid, and he was a good guy, and 314 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 6: he did a great job on a lot of things, 315 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 6: but on this one he intervened because he and the 316 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 6: Democratic establishment understood that if she lost Nevada, she may 317 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 6: lose all her footing, because the argument of inevitability, which 318 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 6: essentially became the message of the Clinton campaign, would be 319 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 6: completely undercut. 320 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 1: So now it is a decade later that we have 321 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: real problems that are just absolutely, unequivocally one hundred times 322 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: worse than either president could ever have gotten. Uts too, 323 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering what you think the lessons are from 324 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: what happened with Bernie, because it strikes me that the 325 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: main lesson here when I look at Bernie's campaign is 326 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 1: that voters had something they liked and there was a 327 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: sort of organic message that was not honored. I mean, 328 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,479 Speaker 1: talk to me about what you think the sort of 329 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: the lessons here are to learn. And also in some 330 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: ways the party is like they fixed the super delegates thing, right, 331 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: I mean, I'd love you to talk through sort of 332 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: the more concrete ways. 333 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 5: The lesson that I believe. 334 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 6: And I didn't sort of start off with this, but 335 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 6: then I wrote the book, and this is what I 336 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 6: came to in the process of writing it. The lesson 337 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 6: is that the Democratic Party must design a nominating process 338 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 6: for president which listens to voters. And the case study 339 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 6: of the twenty sixteen campaign is that we did the 340 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 6: exact opposite. We didn't listen to voters. We rejected their views. 341 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 6: We rejected it in big ways. By the way the 342 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 6: nominating process was designed at that time, there were almost 343 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 6: eight hundred super delegates, so that's twenty percent of the 344 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 6: delegate total. But you don't need one hundred percent of 345 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 6: the delegates to win, you need fifty percent. So that's 346 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 6: forty percent of what you needed for a nomination where 347 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 6: people who were not elected by voters. Now, Ernie worked 348 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 6: hard to try to change that after the election, and 349 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 6: it worked. 350 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: Right, there aren't super delegates anymore. 351 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 6: Well, it worked in this sense that on the first ballot, 352 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 6: superdelegates do not have the power to vote, but if 353 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 6: there is more than one ballot, they will be empowered again. Okay, 354 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 6: so they haven't quite left the scene yet, but they definitely, 355 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 6: you know, are not as powerful as they were before. 356 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 6: But in so many other ways, people were kept away 357 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 6: from the process. A great example of this, and I 358 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 6: read about it in some length in the book, is 359 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 6: the state of New York, which had a primary process 360 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,719 Speaker 6: which just in franchised effectively about three million people who 361 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:04,479 Speaker 6: should have been able to vote in that election. 362 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 5: If you wanted to vote in that election and you 363 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 5: were not. 364 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 6: Registered to vote, you needed to register way back in 365 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 6: the spring of twenty fifteen, okay, not sixteen. And this 366 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 6: process of keeping people out and also understanding that the 367 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,719 Speaker 6: best way to evaluate whether or not a candidate can 368 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 6: be a strong candidate in a general election is to 369 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 6: have open primaries like New Hampshire, like Wisconsin, like Michigan, 370 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 6: where independents can make a decision to participate either in 371 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 6: a Republican primary or a Democratic Party. In places where 372 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 6: that happened, beginning in New Hampshire in twenty sixteen, the 373 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 6: independence overwhelmingly moved into the Democratic Party and signaled what 374 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 6: they would do in the general election. And I believe 375 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 6: what happened in Wisconsin and Michigan in New Hampshire would 376 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 6: have happened again in the general election because those people 377 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 6: had already made their decision about where they want to go. 378 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 6: So let's have a process which is inclusive, that allows 379 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 6: people to participate, that diminishes the power of insiders and 380 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 6: elevates the power of voters. 381 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: So what would that mean. It would mean primaries that 382 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: are open primaries, right, what else would it mean? 383 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm not saying every state has 384 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 6: to have an open primary. 385 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: Why can't every state have an open primary? 386 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 5: In my book, it would be better. 387 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 6: But why not is because in some states we can't 388 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 6: control that because Republicans control legislations and things like that. 389 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 6: But what we can control is the democratic party process. 390 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 6: I think open primaries are by far the best benchmark 391 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 6: of success in the general election. When you can go 392 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 6: and compete and win those open primaries, particularly where the 393 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 6: open primaries are on the same day for both Democrats 394 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 6: and Republicans, you're forcing these voters to make choices early 395 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 6: in the process, and you're having any indication of what 396 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 6: candidate can succeed best in the general election environment. So 397 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 6: we should put a premium on them. We should recognize 398 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 6: and the press should recognize that these are much more 399 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 6: important than winning a closed primary with a you know, 400 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 6: in a democratic place. Okay, I think it begins there. 401 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: That's smart. 402 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 6: We need to design a nominating process to pull people 403 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 6: in as early as we possibly can, and to measure 404 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 6: who can pull them into either side of the line. 405 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 5: I think if. 406 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 6: People looked closely at that in twenty sixteen, they would 407 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 6: have made a conclusion that, you know, perhaps Hillary Clinton 408 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 6: wasn't the strongest canon in the general election. All the 409 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 6: polling said that Bernie always did better than Hillary did 410 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 6: against Trump. 411 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 5: He was always beating him. 412 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, So if you look at like twenty twenty where 413 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: Biden got the nomination, and there clearly was a moment 414 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: where Jim Clayburn came in because remember he lost IIWA, 415 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: he lost. 416 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 5: New ha Im'm shure, he lost Nevada, and then he 417 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 5: went to South. 418 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: Carolina, right, and then he went so he didn't win 419 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: until I think I thought South Carolina was at four? 420 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: Was South Carolina four? 421 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, it was four. Nevada came before South Carolina. 422 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then we saw everybody sort of come together. 423 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: But it did strike me that people were sort of 424 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: doing a math from them in their head, and they 425 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: were like, you know, mayor p he didn't definitively w 426 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: win that first state, and there was a sense, you know, 427 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: like there were sort of problems and it just felt 428 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: like nobody there was sort of no candidate had achieved 429 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: a critical mass. So Biden seemed to be the heir parent. 430 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: So what could have happened there that you think would 431 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: have been would have sort of solved that problem because 432 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: it certainly seemed like there was a panic at the end. 433 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, well, first the process needs to be cleaned up, 434 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 6: for example, specifically Iowa. You know, I mean, listen, I 435 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 6: loved going to Iowa through the years, and I was 436 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 6: there with Docucus in the eighties and you know, with 437 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 6: other candidates and then Al Gore and Kerry I was 438 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 6: there remember election night with him, you know, in two 439 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 6: thousand and four. But the process in Iowa had really 440 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 6: broken down. They were not administrating that caucus in a 441 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 6: reasonable way to allow the press to make a determination. 442 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 6: I mean, the importance of caucus is not that, you know, 443 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 6: it's an indication that you could win the state in 444 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 6: the general election. Although Barack Obama won it and he 445 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 6: didn't say twice. 446 00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 5: Okay, so you. 447 00:22:58,400 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: Might be able to win it this year. 448 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't doubt that. But they had a process 449 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 6: that they just could administer anymore. 450 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: And that's why Iowa had a tie, because they just 451 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: couldn't fucking do any time. 452 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 6: I also think that the understanding of what happened is 453 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 6: something you know that the press needs to be involved 454 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 6: in as well. For example, in twenty sixteen, Hillary Clinton 455 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 6: won forty nine point nine percent of the delegate equivalencies. 456 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 6: Bernie Sanders won forty nine point six percent of the 457 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 6: delegate equivalencies. Okay, they're with three tenth of percent difference 458 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 6: in delegate equipmencies. Five of them were determined on coin tourses. Okay, 459 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 6: you know, to begin with that's a little arbitrary, and 460 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 6: I would suggest even capricious, okay, when he comes to 461 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 6: a nominating process in terms of the press in their role. 462 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 6: When he announced his candidacy, you know, back in May 463 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 6: of twenty fifteen, if you looked at the Real Cleare 464 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 6: Politics average of polls, you would see that he was 465 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 6: fifty points behind Hillary Clinton in Iowa, fifty points behind nationally, 466 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 6: forty points behind in New Hampshire. So a guy who 467 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 6: made up fifty points, you know, against somebody who would 468 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,959 Speaker 6: have won with less than fifty point percent of the vote. 469 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 6: I would argue that they shouldn't have been calling her 470 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 6: the winner, okay. And you know, and when the Clinton 471 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 6: campaign claimed success in victory at three o'clock in the morning, 472 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 6: they were you know, it was a joke, you know, 473 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,719 Speaker 6: And I don't think the press really reported on it 474 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 6: for as it was. 475 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 5: We kind of put it in the rear view mirror. 476 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 5: We said, we're not challenging anything. 477 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 6: We're getting to New Hampshire as fast as we can 478 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 6: and we're going to try to win there. 479 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk about some of Bernie's ideas, 480 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: which I think were scary for some in the electorate. 481 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 6: Well, I don't know exactly what's scary about, for example, 482 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 6: Medicare for all. 483 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: What I mean to say is what I think happened 484 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: when some of his ideas were very bold in a 485 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: way that they're not now right ten years later, they're 486 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: pretty much mainstream of the Democratic Party, but at the 487 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 1: time they were very bold. And do you think that 488 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: the pushback from some of those ideas is it was 489 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: clearly a perfect storm, right, people in the Democratic establishment 490 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: had believed that she had sat it out for Obama 491 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: and they wanted to reward her. An insane way to 492 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 1: run a political party. But the way the party clearly works, 493 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,719 Speaker 1: and we've seen it again and again, and we see it, 494 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, with the Schumer endorsements. You know, it's her turn, 495 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 1: it's his turn. This one's been waiting insane. So that's 496 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: part of it. And then part of it, though, talk 497 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: to me about the idea part of it. 498 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 6: Well, Wellston, I think his ideas, you know, which beginning 499 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 6: with Medicare for all, a tax system which is fair 500 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 6: towards workers and people who make enormous amounts of money 501 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 6: and don't pay much of it in taxes, A huge 502 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 6: infrastructure building program, free tuition in public colleges and universities. 503 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 6: I mean, these are all novel things that you know, 504 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 6: people hadn't really heard before, but as we explored them 505 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 6: with voters at the time. But fifteen dollars an hour 506 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 6: minimum wage, for example, was considered exorbitant, and we did research. 507 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 6: I mean, initially he wanted no polling, no research. I 508 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 6: actually refused to make ads unless you let us poll. Okay, 509 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 6: So we had a big fight about that. When we 510 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 6: finally polled, we found that yes, and I remember looking 511 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 6: at focus scripts in Iowa and the people say, wow, 512 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 6: fifteen it's too much. But there was no way he 513 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 6: was ever going to change his position on that issue 514 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 6: because somebody in a focus group or a Polese that 515 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 6: it wasn't right. He was going to lead us there, 516 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 6: and he did wound up leading the country there. Not 517 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 6: every state adopted it, but when Amazon raised it to 518 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 6: fifteen thouars, even Bernie thanked Besous for doing it. Okay, Yeah, 519 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 6: because you know, I think his ideas, the substance of 520 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 6: his policies were very much acceptable to the group of 521 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 6: voters who decided the twenty sixteen election, white working class voters, okay, 522 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 6: and they decided that Trump would do it. And what 523 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 6: Trump heard, you know, a beginning when Bernie started his 524 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 6: campaign and saw the reaction he was getting. You know, 525 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 6: Trump adopted much of the Bernie you know policies. I mean, 526 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 6: you know, he said he wasn't going to touch entitlements, Medicare, Medicaid, 527 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 6: social Security. He talked about trade policies which were very 528 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 6: bad that Bernie opposed and one of the reasons he 529 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 6: won the Michigan primary is that we advertised on trade 530 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 6: and reminded people where he was in that fight. So, 531 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 6: you know, I don't think it was so much substantively. 532 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 6: I think the labels, you know, he's a Democratic socialist, 533 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 6: you know. I mean, if we could have succeeded in 534 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 6: the primary, that would have been their attack in the 535 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 6: general election. Okay, that's where they were going. For my part, 536 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 6: I sort of understood that. I mean one of the reasons, 537 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 6: you know, if you look at the advertising that we 538 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 6: did for the campaign. I mean his first ad begins 539 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 6: with the bioad starts at the Statue of Liberty. The 540 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 6: America ad, which got a lot of acclaim, is a 541 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 6: sixty second ad. There are sixteen scenes in sixty seconds 542 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 6: with American flags in them. 543 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 5: Okay. 544 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 6: So I was, in my view was we will not 545 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 6: yield an inch to these guys on that territory. 546 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 5: They do not own it. 547 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 6: We have as much right to it as they do, 548 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 6: and we can connect with working people with an agenda 549 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 6: that would advance their lives. And he, I think was 550 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 6: the convincing guy to say, listen, I'm not going to 551 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 6: be part of the same old system. 552 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: I'm going to shake it up, No, agreed, because it 553 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: strikes me right now, in this midterm, we're having this 554 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 1: populace democrats are getting and it's not even Democrats right, 555 00:27:54,520 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: really independent like Dan Osborne or Rob saym or there 556 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: are all sorts of these candidate. It's gram Platner's another 557 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: one who are running as independents or Democrats, but they're 558 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: really running on populism in a way that Bernie created. 559 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: So what do you think are lessons for them from this? 560 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 6: Well, I think the big lesson that comes out of 561 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 6: the book, that I hope comes out of the book, 562 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 6: is that we have to listen to voters, you know, 563 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 6: we have to understand where they are and try to 564 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 6: get in there with them. I have a whole part 565 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 6: of the book where I talk about a lot of 566 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 6: the book, I talk about things that I lectured about 567 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 6: for many years, because I've taught in four or five 568 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 6: different universities all through my career, you know, sometimes full time. 569 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 6: Mostly you know, while I was working, I was teaching, 570 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 6: and a lot of the stuff that I told my 571 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 6: students with things that I've concluded in the book. One 572 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 6: of them is a place I call the voter zone. 573 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 6: The voter zone is where the voters are. And what 574 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 6: the task is for campaigns and for candidate is to 575 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 6: figure out where are the voters and to get into 576 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 6: that zone with them. Sometimes it could be an issue 577 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 6: like healthcare, you know, that really drives an election. Sometimes 578 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 6: it can be an attribute like leadership or strength that 579 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 6: people are looking for. But understanding where voters are and 580 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 6: then connecting with them. That doesn't mean that you have 581 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 6: to do a poll and whatever the poll says, you 582 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 6: say it back to them. It means that you need 583 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 6: to understand where they are in their lives at this 584 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 6: moment and join them in the fight that lies ahead, 585 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 6: you know, And when they convince that you will be 586 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 6: on their side in that fight, that's when the connection 587 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 6: is made. It's also made through authenticity, you know, which 588 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 6: I think Bernie has an awful lot of and other 589 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 6: candidates need more of. And it's also made through making 590 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 6: emotional contact with them, you know. That's one of the 591 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 6: things I think about a lot of someone who makes 592 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 6: television advertising. How can we make it authentic, How can 593 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 6: we make it emotional? And how can we tell a 594 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 6: story to people that they will remember. When you get 595 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 6: those three elements together, you get the most powerful message 596 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 6: that you can. 597 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 5: In a campaign. 598 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: That's the difference between I'm with her and Trump's sort 599 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: of you know, he's with you or something you know. 600 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 6: Like yeah, right, well, I think you know when if 601 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 6: you're referring about, for example, the trans advertising in the 602 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,479 Speaker 6: twenty twenty four campaign, that cam you know, my reaction 603 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 6: to that would be as more of a media consultant. 604 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 6: The Trump campaign in twenty twenty four spent one hundred 605 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 6: and twenty five million dollars running one ad. I mean, 606 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 6: we had different versions of the ad, but it was 607 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 6: the same ad. It was a trans ad guys in jail, 608 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 6: you know, he's getting surgery, okay, And the Harris campaign 609 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 6: made a decision that they would never engage with that ad. 610 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 5: That you know. 611 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 6: Now, one hundred and twenty five million dollars on one 612 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 6: ad is a lot of money, even in this day 613 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 6: of billion dollars campaign. For example, when I worked for 614 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 6: John Kerry in two thousand and four, the entire budget 615 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 6: of our campaign, which was then publicly funded, was seventy 616 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 6: six million dollars from the federal government and about another 617 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 6: twenty five million dollars that we could. 618 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 5: Coordinate for party expenditure. 619 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 6: So we had one hundred million dollars to run a 620 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 6: campaign for president, okay, and they spent one hundred and 621 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 6: twenty five million. I think when you when you have 622 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 6: a situation like that, and that is obviously an emotional issue, Okay, 623 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 6: that is an issue that we can really cut through. 624 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 6: It's a story that people remember. You know, it appeared 625 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 6: to be very authentic in its claims. You know, that's 626 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 6: when the tactics of campaigns become really important. And when 627 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,719 Speaker 6: I see something like that in a campaign, I've been 628 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 6: through these campaigns where the other side hits you very hard, 629 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 6: and to me, that's the pivot point of the campaign. 630 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 6: That's the moment of engagement, and you must win that engagement. 631 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 6: I think walking away from the engagement or not figuring 632 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 6: out how you're going to handle it or what you're 633 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 6: going to say about it, that's a mistake. 634 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 5: You must engage. That's where the voters are. 635 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 6: And how do you engage with something that's authentic and 636 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 6: something that's emotional, with a story that people remember. 637 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: And in fact, one of the things that we heard 638 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: Joe Biden talk about in her biography, in her autobio 639 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: for a memoir, was about how after the debate performance. 640 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: They should have done more media. I mean, they probably 641 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: should have done more media before that. But that if 642 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: you don't engage with things, they just blow up. And 643 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: that certainly seems like a lesson in Biden World tip 644 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: without a doubt. 645 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 5: You know, you can't walk away from this stuff. 646 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 6: You have to run into it towards You have to 647 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 6: engage because you've got to meet the voters. I mean, 648 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 6: that's the big lesson of the book. Understand where the 649 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 6: voters are and meet them there. Don't run away from 650 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 6: them or try to confuse them, you know, or just 651 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 6: beat the other guy up all the time. 652 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 5: Meet them. 653 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 6: And I think if you meet I think if the 654 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 6: Democrats begin to meet voters, but where are they right 655 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 6: now where they're deeply concerned about their futures, their economic 656 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 6: well being has really been hurt by the policies of 657 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 6: Donald Trump. To explain that to them and explain to 658 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 6: them why you will do better. And the other thing 659 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 6: I write in the book is the greatest lesson that 660 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 6: I have learned in the last forty five years, now 661 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 6: forty six years, you know, beginning of nineteen eighty with 662 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 6: Jimmy Carter, that I've worked on campaigns, and the lesson 663 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 6: is that every winning campaign is about the future, okay, 664 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 6: and you must figure out And one of the reasons 665 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 6: when when I was writing the first ad for Bernie, 666 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 6: you know, the slogan of the you know, the of 667 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 6: the ad you know said, you know. The narrators said, 668 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 6: you know, building a movement with you to give us 669 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 6: a future to believe in, you know, And it was 670 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 6: you know, that's because I wanted the future orientation. I 671 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 6: also noted the book that when I put the ad out, 672 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 6: I got an email from my friend David Axelrod, who said, oh, 673 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 6: that's a really good d Don't you think it's a 674 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 6: little derivative since this slogan was change you can believe in? 675 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 5: Okay? 676 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 6: And I said, invitation is the greatest form of flattery. 677 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 6: But I also wanted ours to be oriented towards the future, 678 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 6: which I felt was really critical for Bernie's success. 679 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: Dad, thank you, thank you for joining us. 680 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 5: And great to be with you. Molly. Thank you. 681 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 682 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 683 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 684 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 685 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.