Speaker 1: Class Action is a production of my heart radio and
Speaker 1: sound argument. Kill kill kill, blood makes the grass grow,
Speaker 1: kill kill killoo makes the grass GRASSOULA. Well, I just
Speaker 1: want to tell the team that you know, we're new
Speaker 1: to this, but we're true to this because you went
Speaker 1: through the competition and if you weren't any good at all,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't be here. We may not be the best,
Speaker 1: but we were good enough to get on this team,
Speaker 1: so let's do what we gotta do. The whole goal
Speaker 1: after this is when you go into the courtroom, there's
Speaker 1: somebody depending on you to advocate for them, so let's
Speaker 1: learn it now because their life could be on their line,
Speaker 1: their finances could be on their line, their family could
Speaker 1: be on the line. This is fun, this is great,
Speaker 1: but we have to look up for our clients who
Speaker 1: we don't even know who there are, but they're waiting
Speaker 1: for us. They're waiting words. Our first team with six
Speaker 1: lands with a CS at sixteen and a half. Opedia
Speaker 1: plus thirty nine tells sixteen you're listening to the sounds
Speaker 1: of the next generation of American lawyers. This is Class Action,
Speaker 1: a year long journey inside the hyper competitive world of
Speaker 1: law school, mock trial We found three schools with amazing
Speaker 1: stories to tell, starting with St. Mary's University in San Antonio,
Speaker 1: where we follow one team on their dramatic trip to
Speaker 1: the top. We got beat up, bad, bad, until the
Speaker 1: point where like we're like, oh, it can't get any worse,
Speaker 1: until it did, and then it did again, and then
Speaker 1: we're just like, you know what, let's do this, like
Speaker 1: we know what we need to fix. We got this, like,
Speaker 1: let's believe in ourselves. And it's been good. The University
Speaker 1: of South Dakota, where a new coach is turning around
Speaker 1: a program with students who are guilty of being too
Speaker 1: nice in the courtroom, the reports of this fighter that
Speaker 1: there was blood everywhere, right, that everybody was bleeding. Why
Speaker 1: isn't there blood in the front passenger seat, Why isn't
Speaker 1: the victims blood other places in the car? And from
Speaker 1: deep in the heart of Brooklyn and all female team
Speaker 1: from Brooklyn Law fights, the Ivy League champions, just how
Speaker 1: we got them that so many stay and we just
Speaker 1: all like tackled her to the ground and we're crying
Speaker 1: and screaming and so happy. And to get an idea
Speaker 1: of the future of mock trial, we meet students from
Speaker 1: the undergraduate pre law program at Dillard University. It's a
Speaker 1: team that's been forced to come together after Hurricane Ida
Speaker 1: lays waste to their campus. This sport will humble you
Speaker 1: so quick in the best way possible. It will really
Speaker 1: like let you know you need to buckle down and
Speaker 1: do what you have to do. It will really show
Speaker 1: you like your potential, and it will also show you
Speaker 1: the places that you lag. I'm Katie Fang. This is
Speaker 1: class action. Some people say jury trials they're going away,
Speaker 1: and there's plenty of evidence to support that. Personally, I
Speaker 1: think it's more than a shame. I think it's a crisis,
Speaker 1: a crisis for our democracy because if you've ever had
Speaker 1: to go to trial and you've had a lousy trial lawyer,
Speaker 1: it's a real crisis for you. But there may be
Speaker 1: hope on the horizon. Ever since I was kid, I
Speaker 1: wanted to be a lawyer. Just always wanted to do that,
Speaker 1: and it was kind of like law or nothing. I'm
Speaker 1: sure it could be good at something else, but I
Speaker 1: just this is my heart. I would say what appeals
Speaker 1: to me is the overarching justice system and the fact
Speaker 1: that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but in society.
Speaker 1: That is not the case in society. Is if you
Speaker 1: see a news report that so and so was involved
Speaker 1: in a robbery, they did it. They did the robbery,
Speaker 1: and I think that's unfair. Okay, here's one paragraph I
Speaker 1: can read. That same day, I signed up for something
Speaker 1: called mock trial, thinking I would learn a few things
Speaker 1: about speaking effectively. I began sitting in the backup practices
Speaker 1: and watching the student lawyers argue their cases. My coaches
Speaker 1: didn't let that fly for too long. They insisted I
Speaker 1: lead strategy discussions and present every side of the case
Speaker 1: until I knew the facts of the story like it
Speaker 1: were my own. I have brown skin, I am Indian.
Speaker 1: I am not well represented in a courtroom setting. Typically,
Speaker 1: I'm not who you see on a courtroom drama. For example,
Speaker 1: the other day I was talking to my friend and
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, you know, I did this moot
Speaker 1: court thing, and he said, oh, like in those courtroom dramas, like,
Speaker 1: do you watch them for inspiration? And I honestly was.
Speaker 1: I said no, because those people don't look like me.
Speaker 1: They don't have my style. They're white males generally, and
Speaker 1: for the most part, like I'm building this myself. Whatever
Speaker 1: comes out um in a courtroom is because I built
Speaker 1: that persona Every occupation is important in its own way,
Speaker 1: but I feel like in this type, especially criminal law,
Speaker 1: you're with somebody at the worst time of their life.
Speaker 1: Every inch of my body felt uncomfortable, to the point
Speaker 1: where I felt like quitting. But something about the sport
Speaker 1: made me keep coming back. I trained my mind in
Speaker 1: my tongue so substantially that the courtroom became the place
Speaker 1: where I felt the most comfortable. I learned that being
Speaker 1: a litigator isn't about the objections you make or how
Speaker 1: smart you sound. It's about your body language, the way
Speaker 1: your voice bends, and the words you use. Most importantly,
Speaker 1: it's about the way you connect with people and the
Speaker 1: truth you're able to uncover. It's about the stories you tell.
Speaker 1: This is episode one boot Camp for Lawyers. You're all
Speaker 1: ready for me Interestacing City a j don't stand up,
Speaker 1: stand up, stand up, stand up, pound on the table,
Speaker 1: cut it down the table, Oh my god, oh yeah, who.
Speaker 1: I'm the dean of advocacy, so, believe it or not,
Speaker 1: we already did some advocacy here today. None of you
Speaker 1: wanted to stand up on world would and pound on
Speaker 1: the table, But I got you to do that. That,
Speaker 1: to me is the world of advocacy, getting people to
Speaker 1: do something that they don't want to do on their own.
Speaker 1: For me, it's in the courtroom. I want the judge
Speaker 1: to do what I want the judge to do. I
Speaker 1: want the jury to do what I want the jury
Speaker 1: to do. And I need to train you to do
Speaker 1: what I do. That's my world. Close your eyes for
Speaker 1: a second. Last night, you thought about your first day
Speaker 1: in law school. There was a picture in your head.
Speaker 1: How many of you imagined yourself in front of a
Speaker 1: jury or a judge making an argument. It's okay to dream,
Speaker 1: and here we're gonna help you fulfill that dream, for
Speaker 1: each and every one of you that want it. Some
Speaker 1: of you are here because something happened in your life.
Speaker 1: Some of you have been wronged or a family member
Speaker 1: has been wronged. Some of you have been victims, and
Speaker 1: that's why you're here, because you want to make a difference.
Speaker 1: It's just a small number of people that can control
Speaker 1: our liberty to make sure that it is maintained. You
Speaker 1: have a unique responsibility. We're doing really important stuff here
Speaker 1: and I need you to keep going. The National Trial Team.
Speaker 1: M we practice going to trial as a member of
Speaker 1: the National Trial Team. Before you graduate, you will have
Speaker 1: no less than seventy trials under your belt, practicing in
Speaker 1: front of judges and law practitioners. I invite you to
Speaker 1: be a member of the National Trial Your success depends
Speaker 1: on each other. Put your arm around each other, take
Speaker 1: care of each other, and good luck and muscle and
Speaker 1: coming one else did breakfast? I was gonna say, you
Speaker 1: get some breakfast tacos. St. Mary's University sits on a
Speaker 1: flat piece of land in the west side of San Antonio.
Speaker 1: So give you a lay of the land. Here. Rabba
Speaker 1: is the original law school. Now it's just offices. St.
Speaker 1: Mary's is the first Catholic university in Texas, founded by
Speaker 1: the brothers of the Society of Mary in eighteen fifty two.
Speaker 1: That's the law school library. That's the administration building. This
Speaker 1: is the main classroom building, just seven years after Texas
Speaker 1: became a state. So you have the rest of the university.
Speaker 1: But we're right here in our own little corner. When
Speaker 1: you take a look around, what's gonna set us apart
Speaker 1: when you go to these other schools. Our student population
Speaker 1: has a huge Hispanic Latino population. We're probably going to
Speaker 1: be the largest populated school for Latino law students, which
Speaker 1: is really important to us that we we had that
Speaker 1: opportunity that other schools don't happen. It's fantastic, Lamosambisa Pole.
Speaker 1: It hasn't meet that then, than thank you, mamma, But
Speaker 1: I did my I just liked. So. Our school has
Speaker 1: an oath that every student takes when they first come in.
Speaker 1: You you take a bunch of oaths as a lawyer,
Speaker 1: so we figured we might as well let's start one here.
Speaker 1: The things that the students are pledging to honesty, morality, integrity, trustworthiness, honor.
Speaker 1: These are the things that I expect and we demand
Speaker 1: from all of our students. But we want them to
Speaker 1: make that commitment from their first day on campus and
Speaker 1: saying this pledge does just that. Diligent always. So I'm
Speaker 1: looking at that pledge. I have it on a bulletin
Speaker 1: board above my desk. I, Patricia Roberts, do solemnly pledge
Speaker 1: that I will engage in the diligent study of law,
Speaker 1: always acting in an honest, moral and professional manner. I
Speaker 1: will be guided by the spirit of hospitality, collaboration, mutual support,
Speaker 1: and scholarship, which are the ideals of a Marriness university.
Speaker 1: And I will be trustworthy, honorable, and professional in all
Speaker 1: aspects of my life. Trustworthy all. So do you go
Speaker 1: by a J Belido de lu? Are you just a
Speaker 1: J Belido? Like? What's no? No, never believe o never
Speaker 1: de luna never Luna never day believe it or not.
Speaker 1: Some people use that the last name is Beth Luna.
Speaker 1: It's a double l. So you had the right accent. No,
Speaker 1: and in California, Okay. As soon as I heard about
Speaker 1: this particular podcast, I log geeked out. Trial ad was
Speaker 1: a big part of my law school experience. It was
Speaker 1: instrumental in leading me to not go to big law
Speaker 1: and to go to the grind of big law and
Speaker 1: I went to be a prosecutor. I attribute that love
Speaker 1: and that passion for trial and advocacy like true trial
Speaker 1: advocacy because of the mock trials and the litigation skills program.
Speaker 1: So so yes, so you and I are like minded
Speaker 1: when it comes to this. There is this old saying
Speaker 1: I'm gonna butcher it, but I do like to live
Speaker 1: by this kind of old adage. It was a Judy
Speaker 1: Garland quote about you know, the best thing is to
Speaker 1: basically be yourself. That being said, though, if you could
Speaker 1: build the perfect trial team students trial team student member,
Speaker 1: what would that trial team member be? I never thought
Speaker 1: about that, to be honest, And I think the reason
Speaker 1: why I've never thought about that is because I truly
Speaker 1: believe that I am not trying to make somebody into something.
Speaker 1: More So, what I want is I want to meet
Speaker 1: the students where they are and to help build their
Speaker 1: skills and their abilities so that they can be the
Speaker 1: best lawyer they can possibly be. Earning a coveted spot
Speaker 1: on the trial team at St. Mary's is not automatic. Hey,
Speaker 1: three else, come here, three Else. Tryouts are held in
Speaker 1: the spring for second and third year law students only,
Speaker 1: and just to get this out of the way, second
Speaker 1: year law students they're called two Ells. Third year students
Speaker 1: they're known as three l's. Okay, remember how nervous you
Speaker 1: guys were. This is like their passage into here. We're
Speaker 1: here to help them, do not give them advanced lessons.
Speaker 1: There are two people here that are here on a
Speaker 1: look see the first one. In early August, the two
Speaker 1: L's and roll in a trial advocacy class top by
Speaker 1: a j and after five o'clock they braved the heat
Speaker 1: for an intensive one week boot camp where they're going
Speaker 1: to be drilled on everything from how to stand, where
Speaker 1: to stand, how to talk, when to shut up, and
Speaker 1: all of the bedrock procedures operating inside of a courtroom. Hey, hey,
Speaker 1: what are you doing here? I'm healthy? Oh good team player?
Speaker 1: Look at you? Always a team player. I grew up
Speaker 1: playing team I got in trouble for stalking too long
Speaker 1: and told me to shut up. Happy you think we
Speaker 1: get today? Emily Parker is one of a handful of
Speaker 1: three l's who are earning extra credit for coaching at
Speaker 1: the boot camp. Our boot camp which is basically a
Speaker 1: crash course on evidence, on the trial procedure, cross examinations,
Speaker 1: and just getting comfortable with learning at a fast pace,
Speaker 1: but also just the very basic rules for how a
Speaker 1: trial operates and what what you need to know and
Speaker 1: the nuts and bolts. So then when they start their
Speaker 1: Trial Advocacy Skills class in the fall, they'll be they'll
Speaker 1: be ready to go. Hey, welcome to the first day.
Speaker 1: Here's what I want you to do. Unless you're Andy,
Speaker 1: Emily or Jess, I'll want you to go down there
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go address them, and I want you to
Speaker 1: work with them. And as soon as you believe somebody
Speaker 1: is ready for the test, they could come up to
Speaker 1: me or dead. We're gonna be at the top of
Speaker 1: the steps, they'll be at the bottom of the steps.
Speaker 1: They'll recite, they'll be allowed in. If they don't pass,
Speaker 1: we're gonna send them back. You guys need to grab
Speaker 1: them and work with them, have them recited for you again.
Speaker 1: All right, let's go address them and get them to work.
Speaker 1: My name is Abby. I don't want to speak for
Speaker 1: anyone else, but when he said boot Campbell, I was imagining,
Speaker 1: I mean in the Texas weather, like out in the
Speaker 1: gass doing laps and like yelling the rules of evidence,
Speaker 1: so anything, it was like better than that, Hi, Hi
Speaker 1: might lencinas. I was a bit intimidated, um, but definitely
Speaker 1: just from you know, tryouts, there was still that level
Speaker 1: of you know, scariness, not really knowing you know, what
Speaker 1: his personality was, how he was going to approach this
Speaker 1: whole thing. A couple of minutes. It's good to work.
Speaker 1: It's Jared's birthday. To day, Oh my god, Jared's birthday.
Speaker 1: Howld are you these twenty three. Happy birthday, that's awesome.
Speaker 1: Did you bring cake? I didn't know. I was hoping
Speaker 1: you would. I believe that you have to bring cake
Speaker 1: when hit your birthday, chocolate with chocolate frosting. To the rules.
Speaker 1: All right, get to work. SONA medslaren a dec lauren
Speaker 1: is a person who makes a statement and here's say.
Speaker 1: Um is a statement that the declarent makes while not
Speaker 1: testifying in the current trial or hearing um, and the
Speaker 1: party offers it into evidence for the truth of the matter.
Speaker 1: Asserted the rule number four hearsay, Yes, what's the real number?
Speaker 1: Eight one? It's the real number p four oh one.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, that's right, that's fine, that you're fine through it. So,
Speaker 1: in order to make phase two of the team, they
Speaker 1: had to memorize I don't know, like twelve rules of evidence.
Speaker 1: They were given two hours to write down these rules
Speaker 1: word for word. They were graded. You have to get
Speaker 1: or better on the test in order to stay on
Speaker 1: the team. So they've already memorized them for writing. Well,
Speaker 1: now they have to come in and give it to
Speaker 1: me verbally. What is the definition of relevance? Evidence is
Speaker 1: relevant if a has any tendency to make a fact
Speaker 1: more or less probable than it would be without the evidence,
Speaker 1: and be the fact type of consequence and determined to actions.
Speaker 1: I love it. What is the definition of here saying?
Speaker 1: Here saying is a statement other than one made by
Speaker 1: the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing offered
Speaker 1: an evidence to prove the truth of the matter? Is
Speaker 1: sort of okay, good job. What is the definition of
Speaker 1: relevance evidence as relevant if it has any Why? For
Speaker 1: those people that are listening and wondering and scratching their head.
Speaker 1: There's dozens of rules of evidence in the Federal Rules
Speaker 1: of Evidence, that's right. Why those specifically? And if I'm
Speaker 1: able to recite it back to you? Why is that
Speaker 1: some type of threshold success for me to be able
Speaker 1: to get my foot on the door to even be
Speaker 1: considered to be on the St. Mary's team. It's a
Speaker 1: little bit of effort to memorize that. So they're looking
Speaker 1: up at you and they have to recite these two
Speaker 1: rules to walk past me, to come up the stairs
Speaker 1: and walk past me. So there's an elevation that happens. Right,
Speaker 1: there's a feeling inside. It's part psychological, it's there's a
Speaker 1: whole lot of reasons for it, but it's all part
Speaker 1: of that process of if you don't care, if you're
Speaker 1: not willing to do just this little bit, I don't
Speaker 1: have time for you. Okay, stay your name for the record.
Speaker 1: It's cool, do alright, Cole. What is the definition of hearsay? Hearsay?
Speaker 1: Hear say a statement other than one made by the
Speaker 1: declaring while testifying at the trial hearing offered nevidence for
Speaker 1: the truth for the matter of serv This is my
Speaker 1: first year on the trial team. I did mootcourt prior
Speaker 1: to this, So this kind of activity it's very difficult
Speaker 1: to just really jump into because you've got to know
Speaker 1: a lot of basic tenants of law that we've kind
Speaker 1: of only just touched on. Three years ago. I was
Speaker 1: in your English class and um, I gotta be um.
Speaker 1: I was involved in a car accident today. Is my
Speaker 1: English class be relevant? It is not. Why not, because
Speaker 1: it has no bearing on the practic hand or the action,
Speaker 1: which is a car exact Welcome to boardicle. Okay, find
Speaker 1: a second person. It looks like Jasmine is available. Say
Speaker 1: your name for the record. My name is Karen Crawford.
Speaker 1: All right, Miss Crawford. You and I are walking down
Speaker 1: the street. We just had a cup of coffee. All
Speaker 1: of a sudden we hear crash and someone yells out,
Speaker 1: holy cow, that guy went through a red light. Is
Speaker 1: that here saying the person who said it, no, because
Speaker 1: he saw it with the di Is it an out
Speaker 1: of court statement? It's out of court. Is it being
Speaker 1: offered for the truth? Not that moment? Go back, go back,
Speaker 1: go back. Oh my god, that okay, Karen, let's do it.
Speaker 1: So many trips up? Yeah? How did they do? As
Speaker 1: you go through this process, I really want you to
Speaker 1: think about it this way. The rules of evidence are
Speaker 1: not to keep evidence out. The rules of evidence are
Speaker 1: to guide you on how you bring evidence in. It
Speaker 1: tells you how to get it in. If you look
Speaker 1: at it that way, it becomes a lot easier than
Speaker 1: it's this barrier. It's not a barrier. It's a welcoming
Speaker 1: that we're gonna have a really, really busy week. We're
Speaker 1: gonna be out here for most of it. I brought
Speaker 1: a cooler, Andy brought the ice. Drink often drink a lot,
Speaker 1: stay hydrated. We should hit a hunter and two tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter
Speaker 1: of certain is the statement made out of court. Yes,
Speaker 1: the statement is made out of courts on the street.
Speaker 1: So then that statement is because it is being offered
Speaker 1: to prove the truth of the matter started. So therefore
Speaker 1: it is saying thank you. Come on in? Is that everybody?
Speaker 1: That man? Awesome? All right? Come on, everybody, let's get
Speaker 1: to work. Y'all made it. That was really easy? When't it?
Speaker 1: When not easy? Give yourselves a block. Come on. Now
Speaker 1: you know the definitions. Now you need to learn how
Speaker 1: to use them. Our first assignment is to get to
Speaker 1: know each other. Team up with somebody. No one's gonna
Speaker 1: ask a single question. When I say ones, go for
Speaker 1: three minutes without stopping. I need you to tell a
Speaker 1: story about yourself to the other person. The person may
Speaker 1: not ask you a single question. You will just tell
Speaker 1: the story about you. I hope to god you came
Speaker 1: here with a piece of paper and a pencil, because
Speaker 1: while the other person is talking, you're taking notes, and
Speaker 1: you may not stop talking until I say stop. Let's
Speaker 1: get this table combined with this table, and that table
Speaker 1: combined with that table. You need to throw over here.
Speaker 1: Today I'm going to tell you a story about how
Speaker 1: my house burned down. True story from when I was seven.
Speaker 1: One night I went to sleep. It was a Sunday night.
Speaker 1: We didn't have school the next day, so my older
Speaker 1: brother was awake and he awoke to a bank glass
Speaker 1: crashing everywhere. I used to teach at Maryland. I used
Speaker 1: to do this when I was a Maryland and I
Speaker 1: know that at Maryland, I would teach something one time
Speaker 1: and I was done with it. It was over. I
Speaker 1: didn't have to do it again. That's not where I am.
Speaker 1: And I learned in addition to that, like whatever we
Speaker 1: say could really get us in jail, Like it didn't
Speaker 1: matter what we were saying. I mean, I'm not knocking
Speaker 1: my kids. I'm just saying that they need a different teacher.
Speaker 1: They need me to be a different teacher. Thirty seconds later,
Speaker 1: run way back, so I try to take off. I'm
Speaker 1: not getting kids that even know what trial advocacy is,
Speaker 1: or some of them may have had an experience in
Speaker 1: high school, but they weren't on a national champion high
Speaker 1: school team. Okay, stop talking, stop laughing, not just kidding,
Speaker 1: leave everything behind. Just bring your chair and put him
Speaker 1: in this box. So when you come up here, I
Speaker 1: want you to say your name and the person you're
Speaker 1: introducing and tell us about that person. I'll take volunteers.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I love that. Let's get it over with
Speaker 1: who you are, who you're introducing, tell us your story.
Speaker 1: Can someone take notes? Take notes and these stories? So Hi,
Speaker 1: my name is Maria Ansinas and this was my partner,
Speaker 1: Raven Benya, and she told me the story of why
Speaker 1: law school, which I'm sure all of us have been
Speaker 1: asked before. So she went ahead and started off with
Speaker 1: how she was concerned for people. She had a concern
Speaker 1: in her heart for people specifically. I just moved here
Speaker 1: for law school, so it was a little rough my
Speaker 1: first year. I won't lie moving. I've never lived away
Speaker 1: from home, away from family, so I have no lawyers
Speaker 1: in the family. Um, but I was a legal secretary
Speaker 1: and a paralegal prior to coming to law school. Law
Speaker 1: school was always the plan, just kind of took a
Speaker 1: little while to get in there. So she went ahead
Speaker 1: and started to do a lot of activist work. She
Speaker 1: became an activist, but she quickly learned that the FBI
Speaker 1: would get involved in a lot of things, and she
Speaker 1: learned the whole culture of security and how any little
Speaker 1: thing that she said or her friends said ultimately was
Speaker 1: tracked and ultimately could lead to a lot of I
Speaker 1: didn't want to be the behind the scenes person. Everything
Speaker 1: that staff does is so important, but I wanted to
Speaker 1: be the advocate in the courtroom. And I was just
Speaker 1: through watching those other advocates that I was just like, Yep,
Speaker 1: that's that's what I need to do. My specific interest
Speaker 1: is in Special Victims Unit, sex crimes, crimes against children,
Speaker 1: domestic violence. That's where I really found a passion for
Speaker 1: helping the victims people. And even though her road took
Speaker 1: different directions, law school was always kind of the second option,
Speaker 1: and that's where she's at now. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: power in a legal degree. I asked my good friend
Speaker 1: pre Barrara, the former U S Attorney for the legendary
Speaker 1: Southern District of New York, to join us on this journey.
Speaker 1: Individuals have power generally, they have their voice, they can protest,
Speaker 1: they can run for office. There's lots of things you
Speaker 1: can do. But I think there has been an appreciation
Speaker 1: as our democracy, in my view, has been under attack
Speaker 1: from a lot of different places over the last number
Speaker 1: of years. That's not a bad thing to have a
Speaker 1: law degree and have the which of access to a
Speaker 1: court to redress grievances and equalize the playing field for
Speaker 1: people who don't have access to justice. Is that six o'clock? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So let's everyone take a moment to reflect. As a St.
Speaker 1: Mary's bells ring? How long do they go? The students
Speaker 1: pack up and head for their cars. A J. Sits
Speaker 1: down at an old picnic table with a couple of coaches,
Speaker 1: deb Unich and Misty death Ridge, the two elves in
Speaker 1: their presentations. Was there anyone there that like stood out
Speaker 1: to you the very first one? It's hard to go first,
Speaker 1: but she kind of knocked it out of the park.
Speaker 1: It was very animated. Her speech was animated and had emotion.
Speaker 1: It had tone and variants. It was good. It was
Speaker 1: it was organized, It made sense. We have several that
Speaker 1: need to We're gonna have to be have them sit
Speaker 1: on their hands. We have a lot of hand movement.
Speaker 1: Are you shocked at the deer in the headlights? Look
Speaker 1: with about two thirds of them a little? I don't
Speaker 1: remember that from last year. My concern is that is
Speaker 1: is that a COVID thing? We're back in person meeting
Speaker 1: people in person again. Is it a hold over from
Speaker 1: having done everything last year on zoom and that type
Speaker 1: of their first time live. This class, they've never been live.
Speaker 1: It's a really good that's a really good observation. So
Speaker 1: we should ease them in a little bit rather than
Speaker 1: hitting them hard. I'll say about doing them hard tomorrow.
Speaker 1: But no, you're gonna be easy on them. No, a
Speaker 1: J doesn't do either, but maybe easy for a J.
Speaker 1: To get the bigger picture of the mock trial scene,
Speaker 1: I reached out to Joe Lester. When Joe is not
Speaker 1: overseeing the trial ad program at American University, he runs
Speaker 1: the go to website called Trial Team Central. Trial Team Central.
Speaker 1: We keep track of all the law school trial competitions,
Speaker 1: the results. We've kind of grown. It was first just
Speaker 1: who won, and now it's you know who one and
Speaker 1: who's playing. And we also talked with Joe's colleague, Adam
Speaker 1: schlawhead from Fordam University. Adams created this ranking system to
Speaker 1: measure the top mock trial programs across the country. Do
Speaker 1: you get three points if you win a competition, two
Speaker 1: points if you come in second, and one point if
Speaker 1: you make the semifinals. So then I just started allocating
Speaker 1: points and counting them up. So Adam and Joe. I'm
Speaker 1: the new kid on the block, but I have had
Speaker 1: the most amazing ride getting to know these coaches and
Speaker 1: some of the competitors. So I have met some pretty
Speaker 1: spectacular kids. They have reaffirmed my belief that the children
Speaker 1: are going to save the world because they are so
Speaker 1: smart and so self aware. And I would like to
Speaker 1: thank having been a trial ad geek myself in law
Speaker 1: school that being a part of these teams has been
Speaker 1: a huge part of it. Yeah. You know, one of
Speaker 1: the other critiques that we hear, especially from people who
Speaker 1: aren't trialers, is that there are fewer and fewer trials
Speaker 1: happening in the country. The journy trial is vanishing. So
Speaker 1: why is this so important? And I kind of think
Speaker 1: that because the jury trial is becoming more rare, that
Speaker 1: makes it more important that the students get the training
Speaker 1: in law school because the days of the young lawyer
Speaker 1: trying a hundred cases before their thirty it doesn't happen, right,
Speaker 1: It just does not happen, especially at big firms and
Speaker 1: you know, high stakes litigation. I do uh some training
Speaker 1: for law firms, and these are folks who have been
Speaker 1: at the law firm for many many many, many years,
Speaker 1: and they've never even been close to a trial. If
Speaker 1: you ever watch a baseball game and you watch someone
Speaker 1: throw the ball from third base to first base, most
Speaker 1: people can't even throw a ball that far. It's it's
Speaker 1: a long way, and they do it like it's no
Speaker 1: big deal. And I think they think of trial work
Speaker 1: in sort of the practice of law is something that's
Speaker 1: just easy and no big deal. And that's where the
Speaker 1: trial training that we give gives these students such a
Speaker 1: leg up on their competition on their classmates, because it
Speaker 1: is not something you can just walk in and do.
Speaker 1: It is not monkey see monkey do. I can mimic
Speaker 1: it and I can take care of it. It takes
Speaker 1: a lot of training and understanding to know exactly what
Speaker 1: you're doing and how to do it, or you'll never
Speaker 1: be able to hit a gird ball. So they need
Speaker 1: this kind of training because they don't have the luxury
Speaker 1: of learning on the backs of their clients. Because at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, trials are still happening, even
Speaker 1: if it's to a lesser degree, they are still happening.
Speaker 1: And that's the cloud looming over all litigation. And if
Speaker 1: if you take away that ability, then you're really losing
Speaker 1: a major tactical advantage. So you preface what it is
Speaker 1: that you're trying to do your market You show it,
Speaker 1: you asked to approach, they validate its existence. You publish.
Speaker 1: That's kind of the gist of the way this works.
Speaker 1: Now you all do have a document. Let's be frank, right,
Speaker 1: AJ you you want to create a St. Mary's Law
Speaker 1: and national team that's going to be competitively good, and
Speaker 1: you talk about that pressure cooker of these students. They've
Speaker 1: got their academic rigor and the academic demands. I think
Speaker 1: it's really relevant because a lot of criticism about law
Speaker 1: school has been what's the real world practical benefit of
Speaker 1: going to law school? Like what are you learning in
Speaker 1: the classroom versus maybe being on one of these trial teams.
Speaker 1: This competitive to get on the team, I presume it's
Speaker 1: competitive to stay on the team. It's very competitive to
Speaker 1: get on the team. It's very competitive to stay on
Speaker 1: the team. The pressure is high when you get on
Speaker 1: the team, and a lot of people don't make it.
Speaker 1: They withdraw on their own or they withdraw through after
Speaker 1: a conversation. My number one goal is not to win championships.
Speaker 1: It is not don't get me wrong, I really love winning.
Speaker 1: I'm very competitive. If we were to break out a
Speaker 1: checkerboard right now, I'm going to play and play and
Speaker 1: play and play until I figure out how to beat you.
Speaker 1: I like that You're already going in knowing that I'm
Speaker 1: beating you at the beginning. There's there's no doubt about that.
Speaker 1: But you will get angry at me because I will
Speaker 1: make you keep going until I win, until I figure
Speaker 1: out what you're doing. And I am not so I
Speaker 1: want to impart that competitive spirit on my students, but
Speaker 1: it is not not my goal. I grew up really
Speaker 1: really poor, Katie. I mean really poor. I had parents
Speaker 1: who left Cuba to come here to this country. They
Speaker 1: left on a boat, on one of the freedom boats,
Speaker 1: like many other Cubans that came to this country fleeing
Speaker 1: a communist Cuba Fidel Castro rule, and they came here
Speaker 1: with nothing close on their backs. You don't know it
Speaker 1: by listening to me, because you don't hear me as
Speaker 1: a Latino. Oh but I heard it right there, Latino.
Speaker 1: I have seen that's how some people are treated versus
Speaker 1: other people. And I've been poor as an adult, and
Speaker 1: I've worked through it until I got to this stage
Speaker 1: in my life where I'm not poor. I'm not rich,
Speaker 1: but I'm not poor. What I know is this is
Speaker 1: that there are a lot of people out there who
Speaker 1: are not getting the representation that they need. And I
Speaker 1: see day in and day out how people do not
Speaker 1: represent people correctly. They asked dumb questions. They ask questions
Speaker 1: that forward or advanced the theory of the case for
Speaker 1: the other side rather than their side. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: come from a town of about three thousand people. Um,
Speaker 1: everything I've done in my life, people say, well, where
Speaker 1: is that from. I had somebody tell me this week
Speaker 1: that I sound like cornbread. Whatever they mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a good thing or a
Speaker 1: bad thing, But I mean that's been my mentality my
Speaker 1: whole life. My dad's not a lawyer or a doctor.
Speaker 1: My dad a farmer. And the thing is for me,
Speaker 1: I'm out to prove to the world that I can
Speaker 1: do and I'm going to do it. Hi. My name
Speaker 1: is Karen Fraser Craffer, and the first day was quite intimidating,
Speaker 1: very intimidating. Has studied those things for weeks and it
Speaker 1: seems like it just blanked out Hello and Maria hymis.
Speaker 1: So the first day, I think we were all like
Speaker 1: maybe texting each other, a bunch of us like what's
Speaker 1: gonna happen, what's going on? And we didn't know what
Speaker 1: to expect, honestly, And I remember telling some of our
Speaker 1: friends I feel like throwing up, like I don't know,
Speaker 1: like I'm so nervous. And we get here and it's
Speaker 1: like kind of a relief once the first day is over,
Speaker 1: because we're like, Okay, it's gonna be hard, but we
Speaker 1: can do this a little over a thousand miles due north,
Speaker 1: another trial team, the University of South Dakota, is lugging
Speaker 1: their law books back to campus. Good morning, good morning,
Speaker 1: I was doing this morning. We're doing a series of
Speaker 1: quorn tonight. Open next emails are great way to communicate
Speaker 1: when we're not going to be played. Uh, the knowledge
Speaker 1: is not there front to the email at that shirts
Speaker 1: MS Peter and if that I got, we do it.
Speaker 1: Come on, Oh listen to dream how you doing start?
Speaker 1: So these are the things that we're going to cover tonight,
Speaker 1: things that you need to know about law school, mock trial.
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk briefly through preliminary matters, which is the
Speaker 1: first thing that you're going to say when you're doing
Speaker 1: one of these competitions. We're gonna talk about the use
Speaker 1: of evidence at the competition. What you need to know
Speaker 1: and what the people on this side of the room
Speaker 1: already now. In six weeks, we take a fact pattern
Speaker 1: that would normally take two to three years to come
Speaker 1: to aisle, and we take to trial and they're intense. Uh.
Speaker 1: Some of our fact patterns were as long as two
Speaker 1: hundred pages last year. Some of them were as short
Speaker 1: as sixty five. The thing that you need to know
Speaker 1: most of all, you guys are engaged in a highly
Speaker 1: competitive law school sport. We have gotten to the point
Speaker 1: through the work of the people who have been on
Speaker 1: trial team before you, since I have been here, where
Speaker 1: we are now regularly getting invited and accepted to top
Speaker 1: tier competitions. We are regularly competing against top twenty advocacy schools.
Speaker 1: I don't care that their top twenty advocacy schools. They
Speaker 1: are not any better than any of you. They are
Speaker 1: not any smarter than any of you. They don't have
Speaker 1: any advantage over any of you, other than the fact
Speaker 1: that they have a pre existing template. We're making all
Speaker 1: of that here together because we're building our team together.
Speaker 1: We're currently ranked number ninety in the country for trial advocacy.
Speaker 1: That means we are in the top half already. Our
Speaker 1: goal is to increase that ranking. How do we do
Speaker 1: that by showing up and showing out at competitions. Right now,
Speaker 1: we're taking over with ethical zealous trial advocacy, and we're
Speaker 1: showing them that it doesn't matter what part of the
Speaker 1: country that you're from or how much money you've spent
Speaker 1: on all of your equipment. We're coming for you and
Speaker 1: it's not gonna be fun for you when that happens.
Speaker 1: When you walk into that zoom room when you log in.
Speaker 1: I don't care if you're going against Baylor. I don't
Speaker 1: care if you're going against Temple. I don't care what
Speaker 1: school it is that you're competing against. It's four other
Speaker 1: law students. You have every potential to beat them, just
Speaker 1: as much as they have the potential to beat you.
Speaker 1: It's just a question of who's going to do the
Speaker 1: work at the end of the day, guys, that's really
Speaker 1: all there is to it. So I come to you
Speaker 1: at the end of my one l year. I I
Speaker 1: hear the siren song of working with coach Laura Rose
Speaker 1: being on this amazing team. Walk me through what I
Speaker 1: should expect as that first semester too, well, in those
Speaker 1: beginning days of that semester with you, what's that gonna
Speaker 1: look like for me? The first thing that's gonna happen
Speaker 1: is you're gonna be absolutely terrified because we're gonna sit
Speaker 1: you down at boot camp and we're gonna tell you
Speaker 1: just how this goes. And in the course of that,
Speaker 1: you're going to have this moment of oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: can I actually do this? And law school on top
Speaker 1: of it, it's like drinking water through a fire hose
Speaker 1: on extra pressure. When you join trial team on top
Speaker 1: of law school, we already know that that law school
Speaker 1: is drinking through a fire hose. Now let's take it
Speaker 1: up to eleven by adding trial team on top of it.
Speaker 1: So you're going to get a faster and more intense
Speaker 1: evidence education than what's going on. Questions about cross right now, Yes,
Speaker 1: it's something that I learned in trial tech. I think
Speaker 1: it's important to focus on the negative space that's there
Speaker 1: about what they didn't do versus what they did wrong,
Speaker 1: and that's going to be particularly important when we talk
Speaker 1: about this this fake environment of the trial team competition, right,
Speaker 1: because you're going up against other law students, so they're
Speaker 1: going to be trying to play chess against you the
Speaker 1: entire time that you're ready to go. Your job is
Speaker 1: to be more flutent in their witness than they are
Speaker 1: and then to not let them get away with anything.
Speaker 1: So everybody likes to say that I'm a little carbon
Speaker 1: copy of Dad, with just enough of my mother thrown
Speaker 1: in to be interesting. My father's Charles Harrish as the
Speaker 1: third He ran sets in University College of Laws Advocacy
Speaker 1: program for fourteen years. During that time when he was
Speaker 1: in charge, they were always number one, number one in
Speaker 1: the nation for trial ad He is a giant of
Speaker 1: a personality and a titan within the industry and one
Speaker 1: of the people who now all of us who are
Speaker 1: currently in the job of coaching and teaching rely upon
Speaker 1: for his wisdom and what he did. But there is
Speaker 1: no understating the impact that he had on the profession
Speaker 1: in particular. But he also casts a giant shadow. Listening
Speaker 1: to what they say is absolutely everything and cross examination
Speaker 1: you have to be engaged and in the moment. If
Speaker 1: you're not paying attention number one, they may give you
Speaker 1: a non verbal answer or you need to go back
Speaker 1: that's a yes, that's a no, because otherwise it's not
Speaker 1: on the record. And then, as you all know, one
Speaker 1: of the key jobs of the trial attorneys to protect
Speaker 1: the appellate record. You have to make sure that it's
Speaker 1: on there, because otherwise you're you're robbing yourself of the argument. Technically,
Speaker 1: you're not permitted to argue any of that in your
Speaker 1: closing argument because it's not on the record, right, But
Speaker 1: listening to what they say provides fertile ground for further
Speaker 1: cross examination and further ground for embarrassment for them on
Speaker 1: those key facts. Toss out something that we haven't talked
Speaker 1: about yet about cross examination. This is the part where
Speaker 1: the student interacts with the instructor blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: You know, speak frankly with me, Laura, Are you trying
Speaker 1: to build something that's going to exceed that legacy? Are
Speaker 1: you trying to outshine it? Are you trying to match it? Like?
Speaker 1: Does that create any metrics for you internally for how
Speaker 1: you're trying to build and continue to grow and enhance
Speaker 1: the program you have at South Dakota. I'm going to
Speaker 1: say no. And and here's why I'm going to say no.
Speaker 1: I take inspiration from everything that my father has ever done.
Speaker 1: We have had a friendly competition going my entire life.
Speaker 1: When I took the S A T, I had to
Speaker 1: brag to him that I got a better S A
Speaker 1: T score than he did. When I took the outside,
Speaker 1: I had to do the same thing. Like it's that
Speaker 1: kind of way that he's dirtured my own inherent competitive
Speaker 1: spirit to allow me to kind of grow into my
Speaker 1: own per And now I'm at the point where could
Speaker 1: I try and build what Dad built. Sure, good advocacy
Speaker 1: is about looking at the facts of your case, looking
Speaker 1: at the law, and coming up with a story that
Speaker 1: embraces a legal theme, of factual theme, and a moral
Speaker 1: theme that calls to justice and uses our trial system
Speaker 1: for what it's for, which is speaking truth to power.
Speaker 1: That's what I want to build. I want to come
Speaker 1: back to this is so important to American democracy that
Speaker 1: everywhere should have this level of education and everywhere should
Speaker 1: get this level of exposure. And we have one lawyer
Speaker 1: for every citizens in our state. So we are a
Speaker 1: small bar which means that my students when they graduate
Speaker 1: and they go out to practice, they need to be
Speaker 1: able to do a little bit of everything. They need
Speaker 1: to be a true main street lawyer in the way
Speaker 1: that the rest of the country maybe doesn't necessarily have.
Speaker 1: The South Dakotan walking down the street who gets busted
Speaker 1: for a d u I or a disorderly conduct deserves
Speaker 1: somebody who can go in and advocate at the same
Speaker 1: level as somebody who's in New York, or who's in California,
Speaker 1: or who's anywhere. We need to start recognizing that there
Speaker 1: are things in the middle of the country that are
Speaker 1: incredibly valuable. There might be that time when some good
Speaker 1: Midwestern common sense approach to something is going to actually
Speaker 1: do you a lot of favors. So with that, why
Speaker 1: don't we go ahead and start wrapping things up for tonight.
Speaker 1: I expect to see you all back here bright and
Speaker 1: early tomorrow morning. Not only experts people, can I talk
Speaker 1: to you at front real QUI. Other than that y'all
Speaker 1: are good. You don't please say pizza with you. Whatever
Speaker 1: tournament you guys are doing, it's called buffalo. So that's
Speaker 1: not all the experts law is about. Rules. I believe
Speaker 1: in rules, but more important than rules, it is something
Speaker 1: that is based on principles and values, and those are
Speaker 1: values of equal justice and fairness of process, and everything
Speaker 1: about that is found stating to me. And I love
Speaker 1: the idea that it's also about truth, truth finding and
Speaker 1: all the mechanisms that you use not only to get
Speaker 1: justice and fairness for people, but so the ultimate truth
Speaker 1: comes out. And I've always thought of it as a
Speaker 1: noble pursuit. I tell the young wars it's a fabulous calling,
Speaker 1: but you have to regard it as your calling. Tony
Speaker 1: Sarah is a self described radical lawyer. He even took
Speaker 1: a vow of poverty in the nineteen sixties. He's represented
Speaker 1: clients such as the Black Panthers and the Hell's Angels
Speaker 1: at though he is still practicing law and continues to
Speaker 1: send fear and loathing into the hearts of judges across
Speaker 1: the country. It's a fabulous mission that you're going to
Speaker 1: embark on, but you have to regard it as a mission.
Speaker 1: If you regard it as a job and that you're
Speaker 1: going to sure the interest mostly of corporations, then you're
Speaker 1: feeding into the status quo. But it's not really you
Speaker 1: is that really where you went to law school? Is
Speaker 1: that what you really want to do? Where do you
Speaker 1: want to improve our social and political securities? Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: gotta started. We're getting started. How's everybody done? I want
Speaker 1: to do two things real quick before we really get started.
Speaker 1: The first is that you know, while we're in law school,
Speaker 1: something's happened. It's just part of life, yeah, and we
Speaker 1: all need each other to get through these hard times.
Speaker 1: Christian Ramon's father died. It was not expected, which is
Speaker 1: why he's not here right now. He's still going to
Speaker 1: try to be here tomorrow. They're burying his father today.
Speaker 1: So if you know him, and if you don't know him,
Speaker 1: maybe we can get a card, a note, a reach
Speaker 1: out to him to let him know that he's not alone,
Speaker 1: that other people are thinking of him in his time
Speaker 1: of need. And if it's within you something that you do,
Speaker 1: maybe say a prayer for him and his family. And
Speaker 1: there's no doubt that these kind of events are going
Speaker 1: to happen to more of us. My mother passed away
Speaker 1: this year, just a few months ago, you know, and
Speaker 1: people rallied around me, and we've had things that happened.
Speaker 1: We've had babies that were born, and we rallied around
Speaker 1: each other for babies, the good stuff and the bad stuff.
Speaker 1: As we start to get to know each other better
Speaker 1: and better, it will become easier and easier to rally around.
Speaker 1: Sometimes things happened before we've had that jelling effect. Okay,
Speaker 1: so who did not see the video on cross examination?
Speaker 1: Now there's no direct that it happened. Yet, why are
Speaker 1: we going directly to a cross? We're gonna work on directs.
Speaker 1: Directs are harder, crosses are easier. Why our cross is easier?
Speaker 1: Someone that watched the video? Tell me why crosses are easier?
Speaker 1: Because you're so so only beginning yes or no? Andrews
Speaker 1: hopefully yes? Than you're telling the story. Yeah, what do
Speaker 1: I call that yes train? Right? Too? Right? That's the
Speaker 1: money train? Right, you get someone to say yes, that's
Speaker 1: the money train. That's what you want. You want to
Speaker 1: run away witness so you can slap them around and
Speaker 1: get them on your yes train. How do we control
Speaker 1: the witness? The question you're asking and what kind of
Speaker 1: questions are we asking? And the leading question is what
Speaker 1: is question? One fact? Single fact questions? What is the
Speaker 1: one thing that I want to make sure that I
Speaker 1: get out of every witness that I cross examle every
Speaker 1: witness story, which story? First story? My story? Which is
Speaker 1: my which is my theory of the case? How do
Speaker 1: I get the theory of my case through that witness?
Speaker 1: Bring your chairs, leave your notes, leave your pens, just yourselves.
Speaker 1: You can bring water. So I want my first share here. Now,
Speaker 1: this is your first time through, and we expect you're
Speaker 1: gonna make more mistakes than normal. It's okay. This is
Speaker 1: where you're allowed to make mistakes. This is our first
Speaker 1: step in cross examinations. They're going to make mistakes. We
Speaker 1: don't start yelling until the second time. Right the first time,
Speaker 1: It's easy, all stars and top load. I want to
Speaker 1: take you back to when you're interviewing Bobby see here
Speaker 1: from North Carolina? Where in North Carolina? Eastern North Carolina? Like?
Speaker 1: What city? And what's what's in snow hill? There's nothing there? Farms? Farmer,
Speaker 1: are you on a farm right now? Where are you? Like?
Speaker 1: What are we mimicking here? Trial? And a trial is
Speaker 1: in what kind of room? Is is that on a farm?
Speaker 1: You're not on a farm. You've got to get serious
Speaker 1: right now. You're a little mad at me, aren't you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm glad. That's what I was trying to get from you. Okay,
Speaker 1: I want you to be a little mad at me.
Speaker 1: I want you not on the farm right now. I
Speaker 1: love country. There's a place for country right now. We're
Speaker 1: not ready for you to be country. I need you
Speaker 1: to be in a courtroom. So get mad at me.
Speaker 1: Get in the courtroom, get your head right, ask him
Speaker 1: those questions, Officer san Toppola. I want to take you
Speaker 1: back when you're an interview of Bobby. See Bobby c
Speaker 1: got an alert that his credit card would being used. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right at the zoo trip. Yes, it was. So
Speaker 1: your country is an advantage, right, It's a true advantage
Speaker 1: that you have. What were people like me? People love
Speaker 1: hearing your voice. My voice is common yours isn't right,
Speaker 1: but you gotta just it can't be I'm on the farm.
Speaker 1: We gotta find that balance where I get to be me.
Speaker 1: But I don't want you to think like I'm on
Speaker 1: the farm. I earned my right to be here, all right, cool,
Speaker 1: thank you? Alright, Well, he made fun of my accent, which, uh,
Speaker 1: which is funny now, but I felt like it was
Speaker 1: kind of a low blow at the time. Honestly, if
Speaker 1: he would have told me my cross examination was terrible,
Speaker 1: I would have been like, Okay, let me work on it.
Speaker 1: But yeah, he told me that, and it piss me
Speaker 1: off a little bit. I'm not gonna lie, actually a lot,
Speaker 1: but I mean it's true. He was like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: know you got a chip on your shoulder. Um, I
Speaker 1: can see it in your eyes. And that's true. And
Speaker 1: most of the time in my life, when I get
Speaker 1: piste off, when I get angry, I weren't harder. And
Speaker 1: that's why he was trying to bring out of me.
Speaker 1: And I respect him more. Now I want you to
Speaker 1: write five questions cross examining, leading questions. This is your
Speaker 1: first boyer into a fact powdern don't go deep into
Speaker 1: the weeds. One fact, five questions you have until every year,
Speaker 1: a j writes up a simple case packet for the
Speaker 1: students to argue. With this case in hand, they prepare
Speaker 1: for a short trial where they will have to do
Speaker 1: some of the most basic things a trial lawyer must
Speaker 1: know how to do. Introduce evidence into the record, impeach
Speaker 1: a witness, refresh their memory, and cross examine them. And
Speaker 1: that witness well, it'll be played to the Hilt by
Speaker 1: A J. So the story is about Bobby CE and
Speaker 1: Veronica J. And it's a real story to a certain point,
Speaker 1: and then there's parts of it that aren't true. I
Speaker 1: used it back when I was at Maryland, and then
Speaker 1: I adopted it to hear so that it incorporates local
Speaker 1: town lore, including a bar that I love called Barbara.
Speaker 1: So Bobby CE and Veronica J. Were at a party.
Speaker 1: Veronica wanted to leave the party. She crossed over Martin
Speaker 1: Luther King Boulevard near Camden Pub on Baltimore Street in
Speaker 1: Baltimore City. Two men acrost them with a gun, demands
Speaker 1: um their property. Veronica gives their phone and their purse.
Speaker 1: Bobby gives his wallet. The robbers did not take Bobby's
Speaker 1: phone because he had an analog phone. The robbers laughed
Speaker 1: at him and they ran off, And Bobby CE and
Speaker 1: Veronica J. We're so frightened by it that they never
Speaker 1: saw anyone that they couldn't tell you the person was
Speaker 1: a man or a woman or white, black, Hispanic Asian.
Speaker 1: They couldn't tell you anything about him. They were afraid.
Speaker 1: They were frozen in time. Two police officer to show up.
Speaker 1: Bobby gets a phone call from the bank says, your
Speaker 1: credit cards being used at a gas station. Police put
Speaker 1: him in the back of the car. They go to
Speaker 1: the gas station. Veronica yells, that's them, that's people that
Speaker 1: robbed me. Bobbys says, I don't know. I was too afraid.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's them or it's not. Police
Speaker 1: officers go out talk to the guys and they were
Speaker 1: both arrested for the robbery. Maybe those of you that
Speaker 1: were having a little bit of a hard time will
Speaker 1: agree with rushing or skipping makes it hard. I make
Speaker 1: a mistake, So that's why you have to learn this
Speaker 1: like the back of your hand, all right. I asked
Speaker 1: Dennisis to do her five question cross in front of
Speaker 1: all of you. There's a lesson here that we're going
Speaker 1: to learn. So there's an error and a recovery. I
Speaker 1: want you to hear the error so that you can
Speaker 1: learn from it, not do it to yourselves. I'll explain
Speaker 1: it when it happens. We're good, John, you were called
Speaker 1: about a robbery. I was, yes, it involved two bigger
Speaker 1: that's correct. It did not mention the number of roberts, correct.
Speaker 1: It did not mention the gender of the robberts. That's correct.
Speaker 1: You arrested two men at a gas station. Yes, it
Speaker 1: was two men. So you arrested two men without having
Speaker 1: any underlying fact of the gender of the robbers. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, we had other evidence to suggest that the
Speaker 1: robbers were male, um, particularly the call um. Obviously he
Speaker 1: was able to identify eventually that the two men. Good
Speaker 1: got you got back what you wanted, right, all right?
Speaker 1: First I put her on a spot. So thank you, Jennis,
Speaker 1: just for doing that. Right. What was the question that
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have asked? He arrested two men without any description.
Speaker 1: So the question again, jennesss, So you arrested two men
Speaker 1: without having any underlying facts of the gender of the robbers.
Speaker 1: Now that sounds like a yes or no question, doesn't
Speaker 1: It doesn't. That's a yes or no question. But it's not.
Speaker 1: It's not a yes or no question. Say it again.
Speaker 1: So you arrested two men without any underlying fact, without
Speaker 1: any underlying facts. What does that give the witness that
Speaker 1: takes that yes no question and creates it into an
Speaker 1: opportunity for a narrative. It's the one question too many.
Speaker 1: It's trying to get the witness to make the argument
Speaker 1: for you. When do we argue? When do we argue clothes?
Speaker 1: We arguing clothes? Is the witness gonna argue for me? Now,
Speaker 1: the witness is never on my side on a US examination,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to help me. So this is genesis.
Speaker 1: I told him I grew up in a Mexican household
Speaker 1: and there was no sugarcoating. Ever. It was always very direct,
Speaker 1: you know. I would come out of my mom would
Speaker 1: say that shirt looks ugly. Go change. It was very
Speaker 1: that's wrong, fix it so here with a J. I
Speaker 1: really like that teaching style. That's how I grew up.
Speaker 1: I kind of feel home. It doesn't hurt my feelings.
Speaker 1: So if you do it wrong, it's gonna be an
Speaker 1: improper impeachment. Someone's gonna exect because you do it wrong.
Speaker 1: Now you got to go back and do it again.
Speaker 1: Now the judge is getting piste off of you, the
Speaker 1: jury is getting piste off of you. So that's how
Speaker 1: we're trying to be perfect right so that you don't
Speaker 1: have to do it again, so you don't get objected
Speaker 1: to on an improper or an imperfect impeachment showing up
Speaker 1: the council you have I always stand. I stand when
Speaker 1: I crossed the jam, and I stand when I addressed
Speaker 1: the court. I definitely stand when I addressed the jury.
Speaker 1: Your mind has to be show fast, so acute, so much.
Speaker 1: We call that you develop what you're gonna say right then.
Speaker 1: It's a spontaneity that creates the value. My god, I've
Speaker 1: seen lawyers read their cross examination. I've seen lawyers read
Speaker 1: their close saved without passion. That's not the way to
Speaker 1: do a young lawyer's you know, stand up, be vociferous,
Speaker 1: be independent, be spontaneous, be creative, fight, be in their face.
Speaker 1: But you should know your path, the way that you're
Speaker 1: going to go. The two three things that I want
Speaker 1: from this witness, you should know what those are. You're
Speaker 1: all going to court tomorrow. How ready are you going
Speaker 1: to be? You cannot pass this class if you do
Speaker 1: not enter a piece of evidence, impeach the witness, and
Speaker 1: refresh their memory. Those are the three things that you
Speaker 1: have to do. That's it. I want to hear your thinking,
Speaker 1: your thoughts, how you want to do it, how you
Speaker 1: put your case together. It has to be logical. You're
Speaker 1: gonna have your documents so that you can get to them.
Speaker 1: You can easily locate that document, so that you have
Speaker 1: a copy for you, a copy for the judge, a
Speaker 1: copy for the witness. You might have a spare copy
Speaker 1: in case coffee gets spilled on one by accident. And
Speaker 1: it's curious to see whether or not you are prepared
Speaker 1: for court, so you should be ready for trial. For
Speaker 1: the students, tonight will be a long one spent pressing
Speaker 1: their suits and rehearsing in front of the mirror for
Speaker 1: tomorrow it's judgment tank. I take it. You know what
Speaker 1: a rabbit hole looks like? Yes, you can never get out.
Speaker 1: And what's in the bottom of there? Nothing right, rabbit's living,
Speaker 1: the rabbit hole and the poop. When you're going down
Speaker 1: to the rabbit hole and you're going down to a
Speaker 1: barrel of boop, that's next time on Class Action. Class
Speaker 1: Action is a production of I Heart Radio and Sound Argument, created, produced, written,
Speaker 1: and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Executive producers
Speaker 1: are Taylor Chacogne and Katrina Norvelle. Sound design, editing and
Speaker 1: mixing by Evan Tire and Taylor Chacogne. This episode had
Speaker 1: additional field production by Kristen Cabrera, Paul Ebson, Alfredo de
Speaker 1: la Garza and Malia Lukomski. Additional story production by Jennifer Swan,
Speaker 1: Kristin Cabrera, Jason Foster, and Wendy Nardi. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
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