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Speaker 1: Class Action is a production of my heart radio and

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Speaker 1: sound argument. Kill kill kill, blood makes the grass grow,

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Speaker 1: kill kill killoo makes the grass GRASSOULA. Well, I just

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Speaker 1: want to tell the team that you know, we're new

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Speaker 1: to this, but we're true to this because you went

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Speaker 1: through the competition and if you weren't any good at all,

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't be here. We may not be the best,

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Speaker 1: but we were good enough to get on this team,

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Speaker 1: so let's do what we gotta do. The whole goal

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Speaker 1: after this is when you go into the courtroom, there's

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Speaker 1: somebody depending on you to advocate for them, so let's

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Speaker 1: learn it now because their life could be on their line,

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Speaker 1: their finances could be on their line, their family could

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Speaker 1: be on the line. This is fun, this is great,

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Speaker 1: but we have to look up for our clients who

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Speaker 1: we don't even know who there are, but they're waiting

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Speaker 1: for us. They're waiting words. Our first team with six

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Speaker 1: lands with a CS at sixteen and a half. Opedia

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Speaker 1: plus thirty nine tells sixteen you're listening to the sounds

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Speaker 1: of the next generation of American lawyers. This is Class Action,

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Speaker 1: a year long journey inside the hyper competitive world of

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Speaker 1: law school, mock trial We found three schools with amazing

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Speaker 1: stories to tell, starting with St. Mary's University in San Antonio,

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Speaker 1: where we follow one team on their dramatic trip to

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Speaker 1: the top. We got beat up, bad, bad, until the

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Speaker 1: point where like we're like, oh, it can't get any worse,

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Speaker 1: until it did, and then it did again, and then

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Speaker 1: we're just like, you know what, let's do this, like

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Speaker 1: we know what we need to fix. We got this, like,

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Speaker 1: let's believe in ourselves. And it's been good. The University

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Speaker 1: of South Dakota, where a new coach is turning around

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Speaker 1: a program with students who are guilty of being too

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Speaker 1: nice in the courtroom, the reports of this fighter that

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Speaker 1: there was blood everywhere, right, that everybody was bleeding. Why

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Speaker 1: isn't there blood in the front passenger seat, Why isn't

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Speaker 1: the victims blood other places in the car? And from

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Speaker 1: deep in the heart of Brooklyn and all female team

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Speaker 1: from Brooklyn Law fights, the Ivy League champions, just how

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Speaker 1: we got them that so many stay and we just

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Speaker 1: all like tackled her to the ground and we're crying

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Speaker 1: and screaming and so happy. And to get an idea

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Speaker 1: of the future of mock trial, we meet students from

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Speaker 1: the undergraduate pre law program at Dillard University. It's a

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Speaker 1: team that's been forced to come together after Hurricane Ida

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Speaker 1: lays waste to their campus. This sport will humble you

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Speaker 1: so quick in the best way possible. It will really

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Speaker 1: like let you know you need to buckle down and

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Speaker 1: do what you have to do. It will really show

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Speaker 1: you like your potential, and it will also show you

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Speaker 1: the places that you lag. I'm Katie Fang. This is

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Speaker 1: class action. Some people say jury trials they're going away,

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Speaker 1: and there's plenty of evidence to support that. Personally, I

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Speaker 1: think it's more than a shame. I think it's a crisis,

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Speaker 1: a crisis for our democracy because if you've ever had

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Speaker 1: to go to trial and you've had a lousy trial lawyer,

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Speaker 1: it's a real crisis for you. But there may be

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Speaker 1: hope on the horizon. Ever since I was kid, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to be a lawyer. Just always wanted to do that,

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Speaker 1: and it was kind of like law or nothing. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it could be good at something else, but I

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Speaker 1: just this is my heart. I would say what appeals

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Speaker 1: to me is the overarching justice system and the fact

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Speaker 1: that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but in society.

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Speaker 1: That is not the case in society. Is if you

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Speaker 1: see a news report that so and so was involved

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Speaker 1: in a robbery, they did it. They did the robbery,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's unfair. Okay, here's one paragraph I

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Speaker 1: can read. That same day, I signed up for something

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Speaker 1: called mock trial, thinking I would learn a few things

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Speaker 1: about speaking effectively. I began sitting in the backup practices

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Speaker 1: and watching the student lawyers argue their cases. My coaches

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Speaker 1: didn't let that fly for too long. They insisted I

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Speaker 1: lead strategy discussions and present every side of the case

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Speaker 1: until I knew the facts of the story like it

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Speaker 1: were my own. I have brown skin, I am Indian.

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Speaker 1: I am not well represented in a courtroom setting. Typically,

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Speaker 1: I'm not who you see on a courtroom drama. For example,

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Speaker 1: the other day I was talking to my friend and

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Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, you know, I did this moot

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Speaker 1: court thing, and he said, oh, like in those courtroom dramas, like,

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Speaker 1: do you watch them for inspiration? And I honestly was.

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Speaker 1: I said no, because those people don't look like me.

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Speaker 1: They don't have my style. They're white males generally, and

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Speaker 1: for the most part, like I'm building this myself. Whatever

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Speaker 1: comes out um in a courtroom is because I built

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Speaker 1: that persona Every occupation is important in its own way,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like in this type, especially criminal law,

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Speaker 1: you're with somebody at the worst time of their life.

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Speaker 1: Every inch of my body felt uncomfortable, to the point

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Speaker 1: where I felt like quitting. But something about the sport

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Speaker 1: made me keep coming back. I trained my mind in

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Speaker 1: my tongue so substantially that the courtroom became the place

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Speaker 1: where I felt the most comfortable. I learned that being

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Speaker 1: a litigator isn't about the objections you make or how

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Speaker 1: smart you sound. It's about your body language, the way

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Speaker 1: your voice bends, and the words you use. Most importantly,

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Speaker 1: it's about the way you connect with people and the

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Speaker 1: truth you're able to uncover. It's about the stories you tell.

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Speaker 1: This is episode one boot Camp for Lawyers. You're all

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Speaker 1: ready for me Interestacing City a j don't stand up,

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Speaker 1: stand up, stand up, stand up, pound on the table,

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Speaker 1: cut it down the table, Oh my god, oh yeah, who.

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Speaker 1: I'm the dean of advocacy, so, believe it or not,

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Speaker 1: we already did some advocacy here today. None of you

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Speaker 1: wanted to stand up on world would and pound on

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Speaker 1: the table, But I got you to do that. That,

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Speaker 1: to me is the world of advocacy, getting people to

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Speaker 1: do something that they don't want to do on their own.

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Speaker 1: For me, it's in the courtroom. I want the judge

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Speaker 1: to do what I want the judge to do. I

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Speaker 1: want the jury to do what I want the jury

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Speaker 1: to do. And I need to train you to do

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Speaker 1: what I do. That's my world. Close your eyes for

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Speaker 1: a second. Last night, you thought about your first day

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Speaker 1: in law school. There was a picture in your head.

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Speaker 1: How many of you imagined yourself in front of a

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Speaker 1: jury or a judge making an argument. It's okay to dream,

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Speaker 1: and here we're gonna help you fulfill that dream, for

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Speaker 1: each and every one of you that want it. Some

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Speaker 1: of you are here because something happened in your life.

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Speaker 1: Some of you have been wronged or a family member

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Speaker 1: has been wronged. Some of you have been victims, and

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Speaker 1: that's why you're here, because you want to make a difference.

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Speaker 1: It's just a small number of people that can control

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Speaker 1: our liberty to make sure that it is maintained. You

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Speaker 1: have a unique responsibility. We're doing really important stuff here

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Speaker 1: and I need you to keep going. The National Trial Team.

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Speaker 1: M we practice going to trial as a member of

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Speaker 1: the National Trial Team. Before you graduate, you will have

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Speaker 1: no less than seventy trials under your belt, practicing in

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Speaker 1: front of judges and law practitioners. I invite you to

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Speaker 1: be a member of the National Trial Your success depends

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Speaker 1: on each other. Put your arm around each other, take

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Speaker 1: care of each other, and good luck and muscle and

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Speaker 1: coming one else did breakfast? I was gonna say, you

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Speaker 1: get some breakfast tacos. St. Mary's University sits on a

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Speaker 1: flat piece of land in the west side of San Antonio.

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Speaker 1: So give you a lay of the land. Here. Rabba

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Speaker 1: is the original law school. Now it's just offices. St.

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Speaker 1: Mary's is the first Catholic university in Texas, founded by

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Speaker 1: the brothers of the Society of Mary in eighteen fifty two.

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Speaker 1: That's the law school library. That's the administration building. This

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Speaker 1: is the main classroom building, just seven years after Texas

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Speaker 1: became a state. So you have the rest of the university.

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Speaker 1: But we're right here in our own little corner. When

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Speaker 1: you take a look around, what's gonna set us apart

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Speaker 1: when you go to these other schools. Our student population

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Speaker 1: has a huge Hispanic Latino population. We're probably going to

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Speaker 1: be the largest populated school for Latino law students, which

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Speaker 1: is really important to us that we we had that

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Speaker 1: opportunity that other schools don't happen. It's fantastic, Lamosambisa Pole.

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Speaker 1: It hasn't meet that then, than thank you, mamma, But

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Speaker 1: I did my I just liked. So. Our school has

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Speaker 1: an oath that every student takes when they first come in.

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Speaker 1: You you take a bunch of oaths as a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: so we figured we might as well let's start one here.

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Speaker 1: The things that the students are pledging to honesty, morality, integrity, trustworthiness, honor.

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Speaker 1: These are the things that I expect and we demand

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Speaker 1: from all of our students. But we want them to

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Speaker 1: make that commitment from their first day on campus and

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Speaker 1: saying this pledge does just that. Diligent always. So I'm

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Speaker 1: looking at that pledge. I have it on a bulletin

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Speaker 1: board above my desk. I, Patricia Roberts, do solemnly pledge

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Speaker 1: that I will engage in the diligent study of law,

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Speaker 1: always acting in an honest, moral and professional manner. I

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Speaker 1: will be guided by the spirit of hospitality, collaboration, mutual support,

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Speaker 1: and scholarship, which are the ideals of a Marriness university.

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Speaker 1: And I will be trustworthy, honorable, and professional in all

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Speaker 1: aspects of my life. Trustworthy all. So do you go

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Speaker 1: by a J Belido de lu? Are you just a

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Speaker 1: J Belido? Like? What's no? No, never believe o never

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Speaker 1: de luna never Luna never day believe it or not.

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Speaker 1: Some people use that the last name is Beth Luna.

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Speaker 1: It's a double l. So you had the right accent. No,

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Speaker 1: and in California, Okay. As soon as I heard about

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Speaker 1: this particular podcast, I log geeked out. Trial ad was

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Speaker 1: a big part of my law school experience. It was

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Speaker 1: instrumental in leading me to not go to big law

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Speaker 1: and to go to the grind of big law and

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Speaker 1: I went to be a prosecutor. I attribute that love

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Speaker 1: and that passion for trial and advocacy like true trial

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Speaker 1: advocacy because of the mock trials and the litigation skills program.

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Speaker 1: So so yes, so you and I are like minded

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Speaker 1: when it comes to this. There is this old saying

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna butcher it, but I do like to live

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Speaker 1: by this kind of old adage. It was a Judy

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Speaker 1: Garland quote about you know, the best thing is to

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Speaker 1: basically be yourself. That being said, though, if you could

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Speaker 1: build the perfect trial team students trial team student member,

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Speaker 1: what would that trial team member be? I never thought

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Speaker 1: about that, to be honest, And I think the reason

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Speaker 1: why I've never thought about that is because I truly

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Speaker 1: believe that I am not trying to make somebody into something.

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Speaker 1: More So, what I want is I want to meet

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Speaker 1: the students where they are and to help build their

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Speaker 1: skills and their abilities so that they can be the

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Speaker 1: best lawyer they can possibly be. Earning a coveted spot

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Speaker 1: on the trial team at St. Mary's is not automatic. Hey,

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Speaker 1: three else, come here, three Else. Tryouts are held in

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Speaker 1: the spring for second and third year law students only,

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Speaker 1: and just to get this out of the way, second

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Speaker 1: year law students they're called two Ells. Third year students

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Speaker 1: they're known as three l's. Okay, remember how nervous you

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Speaker 1: guys were. This is like their passage into here. We're

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Speaker 1: here to help them, do not give them advanced lessons.

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Speaker 1: There are two people here that are here on a

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Speaker 1: look see the first one. In early August, the two

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Speaker 1: L's and roll in a trial advocacy class top by

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Speaker 1: a j and after five o'clock they braved the heat

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Speaker 1: for an intensive one week boot camp where they're going

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Speaker 1: to be drilled on everything from how to stand, where

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Speaker 1: to stand, how to talk, when to shut up, and

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Speaker 1: all of the bedrock procedures operating inside of a courtroom. Hey, hey,

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Speaker 1: what are you doing here? I'm healthy? Oh good team player?

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Speaker 1: Look at you? Always a team player. I grew up

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Speaker 1: playing team I got in trouble for stalking too long

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Speaker 1: and told me to shut up. Happy you think we

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Speaker 1: get today? Emily Parker is one of a handful of

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Speaker 1: three l's who are earning extra credit for coaching at

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Speaker 1: the boot camp. Our boot camp which is basically a

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Speaker 1: crash course on evidence, on the trial procedure, cross examinations,

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Speaker 1: and just getting comfortable with learning at a fast pace,

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Speaker 1: but also just the very basic rules for how a

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Speaker 1: trial operates and what what you need to know and

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Speaker 1: the nuts and bolts. So then when they start their

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Speaker 1: Trial Advocacy Skills class in the fall, they'll be they'll

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Speaker 1: be ready to go. Hey, welcome to the first day.

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Speaker 1: Here's what I want you to do. Unless you're Andy,

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Speaker 1: Emily or Jess, I'll want you to go down there

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go address them, and I want you to

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Speaker 1: work with them. And as soon as you believe somebody

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Speaker 1: is ready for the test, they could come up to

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Speaker 1: me or dead. We're gonna be at the top of

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Speaker 1: the steps, they'll be at the bottom of the steps.

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Speaker 1: They'll recite, they'll be allowed in. If they don't pass,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna send them back. You guys need to grab

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Speaker 1: them and work with them, have them recited for you again.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's go address them and get them to work.

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Speaker 1: My name is Abby. I don't want to speak for

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Speaker 1: anyone else, but when he said boot Campbell, I was imagining,

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Speaker 1: I mean in the Texas weather, like out in the

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Speaker 1: gass doing laps and like yelling the rules of evidence,

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Speaker 1: so anything, it was like better than that, Hi, Hi

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Speaker 1: might lencinas. I was a bit intimidated, um, but definitely

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Speaker 1: just from you know, tryouts, there was still that level

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Speaker 1: of you know, scariness, not really knowing you know, what

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Speaker 1: his personality was, how he was going to approach this

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Speaker 1: whole thing. A couple of minutes. It's good to work.

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Speaker 1: It's Jared's birthday. To day, Oh my god, Jared's birthday.

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Speaker 1: Howld are you these twenty three. Happy birthday, that's awesome.

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Speaker 1: Did you bring cake? I didn't know. I was hoping

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Speaker 1: you would. I believe that you have to bring cake

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Speaker 1: when hit your birthday, chocolate with chocolate frosting. To the rules.

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Speaker 1: All right, get to work. SONA medslaren a dec lauren

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Speaker 1: is a person who makes a statement and here's say.

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Speaker 1: Um is a statement that the declarent makes while not

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Speaker 1: testifying in the current trial or hearing um, and the

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Speaker 1: party offers it into evidence for the truth of the matter.

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Speaker 1: Asserted the rule number four hearsay, Yes, what's the real number?

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Speaker 1: Eight one? It's the real number p four oh one.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, that's right, that's fine, that you're fine through it. So,

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Speaker 1: in order to make phase two of the team, they

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Speaker 1: had to memorize I don't know, like twelve rules of evidence.

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Speaker 1: They were given two hours to write down these rules

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Speaker 1: word for word. They were graded. You have to get

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Speaker 1: or better on the test in order to stay on

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Speaker 1: the team. So they've already memorized them for writing. Well,

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Speaker 1: now they have to come in and give it to

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Speaker 1: me verbally. What is the definition of relevance? Evidence is

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Speaker 1: relevant if a has any tendency to make a fact

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Speaker 1: more or less probable than it would be without the evidence,

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Speaker 1: and be the fact type of consequence and determined to actions.

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Speaker 1: I love it. What is the definition of here saying?

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Speaker 1: Here saying is a statement other than one made by

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Speaker 1: the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing offered

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Speaker 1: an evidence to prove the truth of the matter? Is

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Speaker 1: sort of okay, good job. What is the definition of

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Speaker 1: relevance evidence as relevant if it has any Why? For

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Speaker 1: those people that are listening and wondering and scratching their head.

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Speaker 1: There's dozens of rules of evidence in the Federal Rules

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Speaker 1: of Evidence, that's right. Why those specifically? And if I'm

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Speaker 1: able to recite it back to you? Why is that

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Speaker 1: some type of threshold success for me to be able

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Speaker 1: to get my foot on the door to even be

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Speaker 1: considered to be on the St. Mary's team. It's a

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Speaker 1: little bit of effort to memorize that. So they're looking

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Speaker 1: up at you and they have to recite these two

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Speaker 1: rules to walk past me, to come up the stairs

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Speaker 1: and walk past me. So there's an elevation that happens. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's a feeling inside. It's part psychological, it's there's a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of reasons for it, but it's all part

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Speaker 1: of that process of if you don't care, if you're

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Speaker 1: not willing to do just this little bit, I don't

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Speaker 1: have time for you. Okay, stay your name for the record.

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Speaker 1: It's cool, do alright, Cole. What is the definition of hearsay? Hearsay?

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Speaker 1: Hear say a statement other than one made by the

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Speaker 1: declaring while testifying at the trial hearing offered nevidence for

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Speaker 1: the truth for the matter of serv This is my

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Speaker 1: first year on the trial team. I did mootcourt prior

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Speaker 1: to this, So this kind of activity it's very difficult

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Speaker 1: to just really jump into because you've got to know

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Speaker 1: a lot of basic tenants of law that we've kind

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Speaker 1: of only just touched on. Three years ago. I was

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Speaker 1: in your English class and um, I gotta be um.

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Speaker 1: I was involved in a car accident today. Is my

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Speaker 1: English class be relevant? It is not. Why not, because

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Speaker 1: it has no bearing on the practic hand or the action,

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Speaker 1: which is a car exact Welcome to boardicle. Okay, find

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Speaker 1: a second person. It looks like Jasmine is available. Say

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Speaker 1: your name for the record. My name is Karen Crawford.

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Speaker 1: All right, Miss Crawford. You and I are walking down

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Speaker 1: the street. We just had a cup of coffee. All

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Speaker 1: of a sudden we hear crash and someone yells out,

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Speaker 1: holy cow, that guy went through a red light. Is

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Speaker 1: that here saying the person who said it, no, because

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Speaker 1: he saw it with the di Is it an out

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Speaker 1: of court statement? It's out of court. Is it being

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Speaker 1: offered for the truth? Not that moment? Go back, go back,

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Speaker 1: go back. Oh my god, that okay, Karen, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: So many trips up? Yeah? How did they do? As

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Speaker 1: you go through this process, I really want you to

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Speaker 1: think about it this way. The rules of evidence are

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Speaker 1: not to keep evidence out. The rules of evidence are

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Speaker 1: to guide you on how you bring evidence in. It

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Speaker 1: tells you how to get it in. If you look

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Speaker 1: at it that way, it becomes a lot easier than

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Speaker 1: it's this barrier. It's not a barrier. It's a welcoming

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Speaker 1: that we're gonna have a really, really busy week. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna be out here for most of it. I brought

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Speaker 1: a cooler, Andy brought the ice. Drink often drink a lot,

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Speaker 1: stay hydrated. We should hit a hunter and two tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: Offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter

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Speaker 1: of certain is the statement made out of court. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the statement is made out of courts on the street.

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Speaker 1: So then that statement is because it is being offered

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Speaker 1: to prove the truth of the matter started. So therefore

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Speaker 1: it is saying thank you. Come on in? Is that everybody?

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Speaker 1: That man? Awesome? All right? Come on, everybody, let's get

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Speaker 1: to work. Y'all made it. That was really easy? When't it?

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Speaker 1: When not easy? Give yourselves a block. Come on. Now

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Speaker 1: you know the definitions. Now you need to learn how

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Speaker 1: to use them. Our first assignment is to get to

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Speaker 1: know each other. Team up with somebody. No one's gonna

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Speaker 1: ask a single question. When I say ones, go for

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Speaker 1: three minutes without stopping. I need you to tell a

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Speaker 1: story about yourself to the other person. The person may

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Speaker 1: not ask you a single question. You will just tell

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Speaker 1: the story about you. I hope to god you came

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Speaker 1: here with a piece of paper and a pencil, because

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Speaker 1: while the other person is talking, you're taking notes, and

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Speaker 1: you may not stop talking until I say stop. Let's

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Speaker 1: get this table combined with this table, and that table

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Speaker 1: combined with that table. You need to throw over here.

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Speaker 1: Today I'm going to tell you a story about how

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Speaker 1: my house burned down. True story from when I was seven.

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Speaker 1: One night I went to sleep. It was a Sunday night.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have school the next day, so my older

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Speaker 1: brother was awake and he awoke to a bank glass

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Speaker 1: crashing everywhere. I used to teach at Maryland. I used

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Speaker 1: to do this when I was a Maryland and I

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Speaker 1: know that at Maryland, I would teach something one time

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Speaker 1: and I was done with it. It was over. I

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Speaker 1: didn't have to do it again. That's not where I am.

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Speaker 1: And I learned in addition to that, like whatever we

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Speaker 1: say could really get us in jail, Like it didn't

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Speaker 1: matter what we were saying. I mean, I'm not knocking

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Speaker 1: my kids. I'm just saying that they need a different teacher.

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Speaker 1: They need me to be a different teacher. Thirty seconds later,

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Speaker 1: run way back, so I try to take off. I'm

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Speaker 1: not getting kids that even know what trial advocacy is,

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Speaker 1: or some of them may have had an experience in

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Speaker 1: high school, but they weren't on a national champion high

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Speaker 1: school team. Okay, stop talking, stop laughing, not just kidding,

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Speaker 1: leave everything behind. Just bring your chair and put him

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Speaker 1: in this box. So when you come up here, I

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Speaker 1: want you to say your name and the person you're

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Speaker 1: introducing and tell us about that person. I'll take volunteers.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I love that. Let's get it over with

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Speaker 1: who you are, who you're introducing, tell us your story.

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Speaker 1: Can someone take notes? Take notes and these stories? So Hi,

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Speaker 1: my name is Maria Ansinas and this was my partner,

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Speaker 1: Raven Benya, and she told me the story of why

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Speaker 1: law school, which I'm sure all of us have been

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Speaker 1: asked before. So she went ahead and started off with

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Speaker 1: how she was concerned for people. She had a concern

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Speaker 1: in her heart for people specifically. I just moved here

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Speaker 1: for law school, so it was a little rough my

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Speaker 1: first year. I won't lie moving. I've never lived away

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Speaker 1: from home, away from family, so I have no lawyers

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Speaker 1: in the family. Um, but I was a legal secretary

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Speaker 1: and a paralegal prior to coming to law school. Law

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Speaker 1: school was always the plan, just kind of took a

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Speaker 1: little while to get in there. So she went ahead

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Speaker 1: and started to do a lot of activist work. She

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Speaker 1: became an activist, but she quickly learned that the FBI

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Speaker 1: would get involved in a lot of things, and she

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Speaker 1: learned the whole culture of security and how any little

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Speaker 1: thing that she said or her friends said ultimately was

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Speaker 1: tracked and ultimately could lead to a lot of I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to be the behind the scenes person. Everything

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Speaker 1: that staff does is so important, but I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be the advocate in the courtroom. And I was just

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Speaker 1: through watching those other advocates that I was just like, Yep,

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Speaker 1: that's that's what I need to do. My specific interest

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Speaker 1: is in Special Victims Unit, sex crimes, crimes against children,

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Speaker 1: domestic violence. That's where I really found a passion for

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Speaker 1: helping the victims people. And even though her road took

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00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: different directions, law school was always kind of the second option,

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Speaker 1: and that's where she's at now. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: power in a legal degree. I asked my good friend

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Speaker 1: pre Barrara, the former U S Attorney for the legendary

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Speaker 1: Southern District of New York, to join us on this journey.

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Speaker 1: Individuals have power generally, they have their voice, they can protest,

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Speaker 1: they can run for office. There's lots of things you

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Speaker 1: can do. But I think there has been an appreciation

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Speaker 1: as our democracy, in my view, has been under attack

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Speaker 1: from a lot of different places over the last number

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Speaker 1: of years. That's not a bad thing to have a

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Speaker 1: law degree and have the which of access to a

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Speaker 1: court to redress grievances and equalize the playing field for

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Speaker 1: people who don't have access to justice. Is that six o'clock? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So let's everyone take a moment to reflect. As a St.

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Speaker 1: Mary's bells ring? How long do they go? The students

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00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: pack up and head for their cars. A J. Sits

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Speaker 1: down at an old picnic table with a couple of coaches,

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Speaker 1: deb Unich and Misty death Ridge, the two elves in

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Speaker 1: their presentations. Was there anyone there that like stood out

428
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: to you the very first one? It's hard to go first,

429
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: but she kind of knocked it out of the park.

430
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: It was very animated. Her speech was animated and had emotion.

431
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: It had tone and variants. It was good. It was

432
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: it was organized, It made sense. We have several that

433
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: need to We're gonna have to be have them sit

434
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: on their hands. We have a lot of hand movement.

435
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: Are you shocked at the deer in the headlights? Look

436
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: with about two thirds of them a little? I don't

437
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: remember that from last year. My concern is that is

438
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: is that a COVID thing? We're back in person meeting

439
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: people in person again. Is it a hold over from

440
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: having done everything last year on zoom and that type

441
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: of their first time live. This class, they've never been live.

442
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: It's a really good that's a really good observation. So

443
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: we should ease them in a little bit rather than

444
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: hitting them hard. I'll say about doing them hard tomorrow.

445
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: But no, you're gonna be easy on them. No, a

446
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: J doesn't do either, but maybe easy for a J.

447
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: To get the bigger picture of the mock trial scene,

448
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: I reached out to Joe Lester. When Joe is not

449
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: overseeing the trial ad program at American University, he runs

450
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: the go to website called Trial Team Central. Trial Team Central.

451
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: We keep track of all the law school trial competitions,

452
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: the results. We've kind of grown. It was first just

453
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: who won, and now it's you know who one and

454
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: who's playing. And we also talked with Joe's colleague, Adam

455
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: schlawhead from Fordam University. Adams created this ranking system to

456
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: measure the top mock trial programs across the country. Do

457
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: you get three points if you win a competition, two

458
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:49,239
Speaker 1: points if you come in second, and one point if

459
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: you make the semifinals. So then I just started allocating

460
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: points and counting them up. So Adam and Joe. I'm

461
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: the new kid on the block, but I have had

462
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: the most amazing ride getting to know these coaches and

463
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: some of the competitors. So I have met some pretty

464
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: spectacular kids. They have reaffirmed my belief that the children

465
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: are going to save the world because they are so

466
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: smart and so self aware. And I would like to

467
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: thank having been a trial ad geek myself in law

468
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: school that being a part of these teams has been

469
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: a huge part of it. Yeah. You know, one of

470
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: the other critiques that we hear, especially from people who

471
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: aren't trialers, is that there are fewer and fewer trials

472
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: happening in the country. The journy trial is vanishing. So

473
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: why is this so important? And I kind of think

474
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: that because the jury trial is becoming more rare, that

475
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: makes it more important that the students get the training

476
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: in law school because the days of the young lawyer

477
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: trying a hundred cases before their thirty it doesn't happen, right,

478
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: It just does not happen, especially at big firms and

479
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: you know, high stakes litigation. I do uh some training

480
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: for law firms, and these are folks who have been

481
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: at the law firm for many many many, many years,

482
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: and they've never even been close to a trial. If

483
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: you ever watch a baseball game and you watch someone

484
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: throw the ball from third base to first base, most

485
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: people can't even throw a ball that far. It's it's

486
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: a long way, and they do it like it's no

487
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: big deal. And I think they think of trial work

488
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: in sort of the practice of law is something that's

489
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: just easy and no big deal. And that's where the

490
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: trial training that we give gives these students such a

491
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: leg up on their competition on their classmates, because it

492
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: is not something you can just walk in and do.

493
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: It is not monkey see monkey do. I can mimic

494
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: it and I can take care of it. It takes

495
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: a lot of training and understanding to know exactly what

496
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: you're doing and how to do it, or you'll never

497
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: be able to hit a gird ball. So they need

498
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: this kind of training because they don't have the luxury

499
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: of learning on the backs of their clients. Because at

500
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: the end of the day, trials are still happening, even

501
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: if it's to a lesser degree, they are still happening.

502
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: And that's the cloud looming over all litigation. And if

503
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: if you take away that ability, then you're really losing

504
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: a major tactical advantage. So you preface what it is

505
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: that you're trying to do your market You show it,

506
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: you asked to approach, they validate its existence. You publish.

507
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: That's kind of the gist of the way this works.

508
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: Now you all do have a document. Let's be frank, right,

509
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: AJ you you want to create a St. Mary's Law

510
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: and national team that's going to be competitively good, and

511
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,919
Speaker 1: you talk about that pressure cooker of these students. They've

512
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: got their academic rigor and the academic demands. I think

513
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: it's really relevant because a lot of criticism about law

514
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: school has been what's the real world practical benefit of

515
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: going to law school? Like what are you learning in

516
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: the classroom versus maybe being on one of these trial teams.

517
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: This competitive to get on the team, I presume it's

518
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: competitive to stay on the team. It's very competitive to

519
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: get on the team. It's very competitive to stay on

520
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 1: the team. The pressure is high when you get on

521
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: the team, and a lot of people don't make it.

522
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: They withdraw on their own or they withdraw through after

523
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: a conversation. My number one goal is not to win championships.

524
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: It is not don't get me wrong, I really love winning.

525
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 1: I'm very competitive. If we were to break out a

526
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: checkerboard right now, I'm going to play and play and

527
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: play and play until I figure out how to beat you.

528
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: I like that You're already going in knowing that I'm

529
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: beating you at the beginning. There's there's no doubt about that.

530
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 1: But you will get angry at me because I will

531
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 1: make you keep going until I win, until I figure

532
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: out what you're doing. And I am not so I

533
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: want to impart that competitive spirit on my students, but

534
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: it is not not my goal. I grew up really

535
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: really poor, Katie. I mean really poor. I had parents

536
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: who left Cuba to come here to this country. They

537
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: left on a boat, on one of the freedom boats,

538
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 1: like many other Cubans that came to this country fleeing

539
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: a communist Cuba Fidel Castro rule, and they came here

540
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: with nothing close on their backs. You don't know it

541
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: by listening to me, because you don't hear me as

542
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: a Latino. Oh but I heard it right there, Latino.

543
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: I have seen that's how some people are treated versus

544
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: other people. And I've been poor as an adult, and

545
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: I've worked through it until I got to this stage

546
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: in my life where I'm not poor. I'm not rich,

547
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: but I'm not poor. What I know is this is

548
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: that there are a lot of people out there who

549
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: are not getting the representation that they need. And I

550
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: see day in and day out how people do not

551
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 1: represent people correctly. They asked dumb questions. They ask questions

552
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: that forward or advanced the theory of the case for

553
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: the other side rather than their side. I mean, I've

554
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: come from a town of about three thousand people. Um,

555
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: everything I've done in my life, people say, well, where

556
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: is that from. I had somebody tell me this week

557
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 1: that I sound like cornbread. Whatever they mean, I don't know.

558
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a good thing or a

559
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: bad thing, But I mean that's been my mentality my

560
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: whole life. My dad's not a lawyer or a doctor.

561
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: My dad a farmer. And the thing is for me,

562
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: I'm out to prove to the world that I can

563
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: do and I'm going to do it. Hi. My name

564
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,399
Speaker 1: is Karen Fraser Craffer, and the first day was quite intimidating,

565
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: very intimidating. Has studied those things for weeks and it

566
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: seems like it just blanked out Hello and Maria hymis.

567
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: So the first day, I think we were all like

568
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: maybe texting each other, a bunch of us like what's

569
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: gonna happen, what's going on? And we didn't know what

570
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 1: to expect, honestly, And I remember telling some of our

571
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: friends I feel like throwing up, like I don't know,

572
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: like I'm so nervous. And we get here and it's

573
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: like kind of a relief once the first day is over,

574
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: because we're like, Okay, it's gonna be hard, but we

575
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: can do this a little over a thousand miles due north,

576
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: another trial team, the University of South Dakota, is lugging

577
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: their law books back to campus. Good morning, good morning,

578
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: I was doing this morning. We're doing a series of

579
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: quorn tonight. Open next emails are great way to communicate

580
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 1: when we're not going to be played. Uh, the knowledge

581
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,240
Speaker 1: is not there front to the email at that shirts

582
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: MS Peter and if that I got, we do it.

583
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: Come on, Oh listen to dream how you doing start?

584
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: So these are the things that we're going to cover tonight,

585
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:39,959
Speaker 1: things that you need to know about law school, mock trial.

586
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk briefly through preliminary matters, which is the

587
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: first thing that you're going to say when you're doing

588
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: one of these competitions. We're gonna talk about the use

589
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: of evidence at the competition. What you need to know

590
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: and what the people on this side of the room

591
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: already now. In six weeks, we take a fact pattern

592
00:39:58,080 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: that would normally take two to three years to come

593
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: to aisle, and we take to trial and they're intense. Uh.

594
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 1: Some of our fact patterns were as long as two

595
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: hundred pages last year. Some of them were as short

596
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: as sixty five. The thing that you need to know

597
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: most of all, you guys are engaged in a highly

598
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,479
Speaker 1: competitive law school sport. We have gotten to the point

599
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: through the work of the people who have been on

600
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: trial team before you, since I have been here, where

601
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: we are now regularly getting invited and accepted to top

602
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: tier competitions. We are regularly competing against top twenty advocacy schools.

603
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: I don't care that their top twenty advocacy schools. They

604
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: are not any better than any of you. They are

605
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: not any smarter than any of you. They don't have

606
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: any advantage over any of you, other than the fact

607
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 1: that they have a pre existing template. We're making all

608
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: of that here together because we're building our team together.

609
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: We're currently ranked number ninety in the country for trial advocacy.

610
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: That means we are in the top half already. Our

611
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: goal is to increase that ranking. How do we do

612
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: that by showing up and showing out at competitions. Right now,

613
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 1: we're taking over with ethical zealous trial advocacy, and we're

614
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: showing them that it doesn't matter what part of the

615
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 1: country that you're from or how much money you've spent

616
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: on all of your equipment. We're coming for you and

617
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: it's not gonna be fun for you when that happens.

618
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: When you walk into that zoom room when you log in.

619
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: I don't care if you're going against Baylor. I don't

620
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 1: care if you're going against Temple. I don't care what

621
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: school it is that you're competing against. It's four other

622
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: law students. You have every potential to beat them, just

623
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: as much as they have the potential to beat you.

624
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: It's just a question of who's going to do the

625
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: work at the end of the day, guys, that's really

626
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: all there is to it. So I come to you

627
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 1: at the end of my one l year. I I

628
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: hear the siren song of working with coach Laura Rose

629
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: being on this amazing team. Walk me through what I

630
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,439
Speaker 1: should expect as that first semester too, well, in those

631
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: beginning days of that semester with you, what's that gonna

632
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 1: look like for me? The first thing that's gonna happen

633
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 1: is you're gonna be absolutely terrified because we're gonna sit

634
00:41:58,440 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: you down at boot camp and we're gonna tell you

635
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: just how this goes. And in the course of that,

636
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:03,879
Speaker 1: you're going to have this moment of oh my gosh,

637
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: can I actually do this? And law school on top

638
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: of it, it's like drinking water through a fire hose

639
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: on extra pressure. When you join trial team on top

640
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: of law school, we already know that that law school

641
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 1: is drinking through a fire hose. Now let's take it

642
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 1: up to eleven by adding trial team on top of it.

643
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: So you're going to get a faster and more intense

644
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: evidence education than what's going on. Questions about cross right now, Yes,

645
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: it's something that I learned in trial tech. I think

646
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: it's important to focus on the negative space that's there

647
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: about what they didn't do versus what they did wrong,

648
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: and that's going to be particularly important when we talk

649
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: about this this fake environment of the trial team competition, right,

650
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: because you're going up against other law students, so they're

651
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: going to be trying to play chess against you the

652
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: entire time that you're ready to go. Your job is

653
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: to be more flutent in their witness than they are

654
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 1: and then to not let them get away with anything.

655
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: So everybody likes to say that I'm a little carbon

656
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: copy of Dad, with just enough of my mother thrown

657
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: in to be interesting. My father's Charles Harrish as the

658
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: third He ran sets in University College of Laws Advocacy

659
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 1: program for fourteen years. During that time when he was

660
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: in charge, they were always number one, number one in

661
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: the nation for trial ad He is a giant of

662
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: a personality and a titan within the industry and one

663
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: of the people who now all of us who are

664
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 1: currently in the job of coaching and teaching rely upon

665
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 1: for his wisdom and what he did. But there is

666
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: no understating the impact that he had on the profession

667
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,320
Speaker 1: in particular. But he also casts a giant shadow. Listening

668
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: to what they say is absolutely everything and cross examination

669
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: you have to be engaged and in the moment. If

670
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: you're not paying attention number one, they may give you

671
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: a non verbal answer or you need to go back

672
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: that's a yes, that's a no, because otherwise it's not

673
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: on the record. And then, as you all know, one

674
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: of the key jobs of the trial attorneys to protect

675
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: the appellate record. You have to make sure that it's

676
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: on there, because otherwise you're you're robbing yourself of the argument. Technically,

677
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: you're not permitted to argue any of that in your

678
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: closing argument because it's not on the record, right, But

679
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: listening to what they say provides fertile ground for further

680
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 1: cross examination and further ground for embarrassment for them on

681
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: those key facts. Toss out something that we haven't talked

682
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 1: about yet about cross examination. This is the part where

683
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: the student interacts with the instructor blah blah blah blah blah.

684
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 1: You know, speak frankly with me, Laura, Are you trying

685
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: to build something that's going to exceed that legacy? Are

686
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 1: you trying to outshine it? Are you trying to match it? Like?

687
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: Does that create any metrics for you internally for how

688
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: you're trying to build and continue to grow and enhance

689
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: the program you have at South Dakota. I'm going to

690
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: say no. And and here's why I'm going to say no.

691
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: I take inspiration from everything that my father has ever done.

692
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 1: We have had a friendly competition going my entire life.

693
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 1: When I took the S A T, I had to

694
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: brag to him that I got a better S A

695
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: T score than he did. When I took the outside,

696
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: I had to do the same thing. Like it's that

697
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 1: kind of way that he's dirtured my own inherent competitive

698
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: spirit to allow me to kind of grow into my

699
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: own per And now I'm at the point where could

700
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,959
Speaker 1: I try and build what Dad built. Sure, good advocacy

701
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:08,959
Speaker 1: is about looking at the facts of your case, looking

702
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 1: at the law, and coming up with a story that

703
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,959
Speaker 1: embraces a legal theme, of factual theme, and a moral

704
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 1: theme that calls to justice and uses our trial system

705
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 1: for what it's for, which is speaking truth to power.

706
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: That's what I want to build. I want to come

707
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 1: back to this is so important to American democracy that

708
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,720
Speaker 1: everywhere should have this level of education and everywhere should

709
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: get this level of exposure. And we have one lawyer

710
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: for every citizens in our state. So we are a

711
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: small bar which means that my students when they graduate

712
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: and they go out to practice, they need to be

713
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: able to do a little bit of everything. They need

714
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 1: to be a true main street lawyer in the way

715
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: that the rest of the country maybe doesn't necessarily have.

716
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: The South Dakotan walking down the street who gets busted

717
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: for a d u I or a disorderly conduct deserves

718
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: somebody who can go in and advocate at the same

719
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: level as somebody who's in New York, or who's in California,

720
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: or who's anywhere. We need to start recognizing that there

721
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: are things in the middle of the country that are

722
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: incredibly valuable. There might be that time when some good

723
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: Midwestern common sense approach to something is going to actually

724
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 1: do you a lot of favors. So with that, why

725
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: don't we go ahead and start wrapping things up for tonight.

726
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: I expect to see you all back here bright and

727
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: early tomorrow morning. Not only experts people, can I talk

728
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: to you at front real QUI. Other than that y'all

729
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: are good. You don't please say pizza with you. Whatever

730
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 1: tournament you guys are doing, it's called buffalo. So that's

731
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:46,919
Speaker 1: not all the experts law is about. Rules. I believe

732
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: in rules, but more important than rules, it is something

733
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: that is based on principles and values, and those are

734
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: values of equal justice and fairness of process, and everything

735
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 1: about that is found stating to me. And I love

736
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: the idea that it's also about truth, truth finding and

737
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: all the mechanisms that you use not only to get

738
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: justice and fairness for people, but so the ultimate truth

739
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: comes out. And I've always thought of it as a

740
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 1: noble pursuit. I tell the young wars it's a fabulous calling,

741
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,280
Speaker 1: but you have to regard it as your calling. Tony

742
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 1: Sarah is a self described radical lawyer. He even took

743
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: a vow of poverty in the nineteen sixties. He's represented

744
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: clients such as the Black Panthers and the Hell's Angels

745
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: at though he is still practicing law and continues to

746
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: send fear and loathing into the hearts of judges across

747
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: the country. It's a fabulous mission that you're going to

748
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 1: embark on, but you have to regard it as a mission.

749
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: If you regard it as a job and that you're

750
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 1: going to sure the interest mostly of corporations, then you're

751
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: feeding into the status quo. But it's not really you

752
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: is that really where you went to law school? Is

753
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: that what you really want to do? Where do you

754
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: want to improve our social and political securities? Okay, I'm

755
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 1: gotta started. We're getting started. How's everybody done? I want

756
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: to do two things real quick before we really get started.

757
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 1: The first is that you know, while we're in law school,

758
00:48:55,320 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 1: something's happened. It's just part of life, yeah, and we

759
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: all need each other to get through these hard times.

760
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: Christian Ramon's father died. It was not expected, which is

761
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 1: why he's not here right now. He's still going to

762
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 1: try to be here tomorrow. They're burying his father today.

763
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 1: So if you know him, and if you don't know him,

764
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: maybe we can get a card, a note, a reach

765
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: out to him to let him know that he's not alone,

766
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: that other people are thinking of him in his time

767
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: of need. And if it's within you something that you do,

768
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 1: maybe say a prayer for him and his family. And

769
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: there's no doubt that these kind of events are going

770
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: to happen to more of us. My mother passed away

771
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: this year, just a few months ago, you know, and

772
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: people rallied around me, and we've had things that happened.

773
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 1: We've had babies that were born, and we rallied around

774
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: each other for babies, the good stuff and the bad stuff.

775
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: As we start to get to know each other better

776
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 1: and better, it will become easier and easier to rally around.

777
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: Sometimes things happened before we've had that jelling effect. Okay,

778
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 1: so who did not see the video on cross examination?

779
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 1: Now there's no direct that it happened. Yet, why are

780
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: we going directly to a cross? We're gonna work on directs.

781
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: Directs are harder, crosses are easier. Why our cross is easier?

782
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: Someone that watched the video? Tell me why crosses are easier?

783
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: Because you're so so only beginning yes or no? Andrews

784
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 1: hopefully yes? Than you're telling the story. Yeah, what do

785
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: I call that yes train? Right? Too? Right? That's the

786
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: money train? Right, you get someone to say yes, that's

787
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: the money train. That's what you want. You want to

788
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: run away witness so you can slap them around and

789
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,280
Speaker 1: get them on your yes train. How do we control

790
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: the witness? The question you're asking and what kind of

791
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: questions are we asking? And the leading question is what

792
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: is question? One fact? Single fact questions? What is the

793
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 1: one thing that I want to make sure that I

794
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: get out of every witness that I cross examle every

795
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: witness story, which story? First story? My story? Which is

796
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: my which is my theory of the case? How do

797
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 1: I get the theory of my case through that witness?

798
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: Bring your chairs, leave your notes, leave your pens, just yourselves.

799
00:51:50,200 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: You can bring water. So I want my first share here. Now,

800
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: this is your first time through, and we expect you're

801
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: gonna make more mistakes than normal. It's okay. This is

802
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: where you're allowed to make mistakes. This is our first

803
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: step in cross examinations. They're going to make mistakes. We

804
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,799
Speaker 1: don't start yelling until the second time. Right the first time,

805
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 1: It's easy, all stars and top load. I want to

806
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: take you back to when you're interviewing Bobby see here

807
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 1: from North Carolina? Where in North Carolina? Eastern North Carolina? Like?

808
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: What city? And what's what's in snow hill? There's nothing there? Farms? Farmer,

809
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: are you on a farm right now? Where are you? Like?

810
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: What are we mimicking here? Trial? And a trial is

811
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 1: in what kind of room? Is is that on a farm?

812
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 1: You're not on a farm. You've got to get serious

813
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: right now. You're a little mad at me, aren't you. Yeah,

814
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 1: I'm glad. That's what I was trying to get from you. Okay,

815
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 1: I want you to be a little mad at me.

816
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: I want you not on the farm right now. I

817
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: love country. There's a place for country right now. We're

818
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: not ready for you to be country. I need you

819
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: to be in a courtroom. So get mad at me.

820
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: Get in the courtroom, get your head right, ask him

821
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: those questions, Officer san Toppola. I want to take you

822
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: back when you're an interview of Bobby. See Bobby c

823
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 1: got an alert that his credit card would being used. Yeah,

824
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: that's right at the zoo trip. Yes, it was. So

825
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 1: your country is an advantage, right, It's a true advantage

826
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 1: that you have. What were people like me? People love

827
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 1: hearing your voice. My voice is common yours isn't right,

828
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: but you gotta just it can't be I'm on the farm.

829
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: We gotta find that balance where I get to be me.

830
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: But I don't want you to think like I'm on

831
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: the farm. I earned my right to be here, all right, cool,

832
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: thank you? Alright, Well, he made fun of my accent, which, uh,

833
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: which is funny now, but I felt like it was

834
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: kind of a low blow at the time. Honestly, if

835
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: he would have told me my cross examination was terrible,

836
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: I would have been like, Okay, let me work on it.

837
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, he told me that, and it piss me

838
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 1: off a little bit. I'm not gonna lie, actually a lot,

839
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: but I mean it's true. He was like, yeah, I

840
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,320
Speaker 1: know you got a chip on your shoulder. Um, I

841
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 1: can see it in your eyes. And that's true. And

842
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:40,879
Speaker 1: most of the time in my life, when I get

843
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 1: piste off, when I get angry, I weren't harder. And

844
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:45,840
Speaker 1: that's why he was trying to bring out of me.

845
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 1: And I respect him more. Now I want you to

846
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: write five questions cross examining, leading questions. This is your

847
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: first boyer into a fact powdern don't go deep into

848
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: the weeds. One fact, five questions you have until every year,

849
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 1: a j writes up a simple case packet for the

850
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:19,320
Speaker 1: students to argue. With this case in hand, they prepare

851
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,800
Speaker 1: for a short trial where they will have to do

852
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,399
Speaker 1: some of the most basic things a trial lawyer must

853
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 1: know how to do. Introduce evidence into the record, impeach

854
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 1: a witness, refresh their memory, and cross examine them. And

855
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 1: that witness well, it'll be played to the Hilt by

856
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: A J. So the story is about Bobby CE and

857
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: Veronica J. And it's a real story to a certain point,

858
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 1: and then there's parts of it that aren't true. I

859
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: used it back when I was at Maryland, and then

860
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: I adopted it to hear so that it incorporates local

861
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,720
Speaker 1: town lore, including a bar that I love called Barbara.

862
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: So Bobby CE and Veronica J. Were at a party.

863
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: Veronica wanted to leave the party. She crossed over Martin

864
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: Luther King Boulevard near Camden Pub on Baltimore Street in

865
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 1: Baltimore City. Two men acrost them with a gun, demands

866
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: um their property. Veronica gives their phone and their purse.

867
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 1: Bobby gives his wallet. The robbers did not take Bobby's

868
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: phone because he had an analog phone. The robbers laughed

869
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 1: at him and they ran off, And Bobby CE and

870
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: Veronica J. We're so frightened by it that they never

871
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 1: saw anyone that they couldn't tell you the person was

872
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: a man or a woman or white, black, Hispanic Asian.

873
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 1: They couldn't tell you anything about him. They were afraid.

874
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 1: They were frozen in time. Two police officer to show up.

875
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: Bobby gets a phone call from the bank says, your

876
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 1: credit cards being used at a gas station. Police put

877
00:56:57,719 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 1: him in the back of the car. They go to

878
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: the gas station. Veronica yells, that's them, that's people that

879
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 1: robbed me. Bobbys says, I don't know. I was too afraid.

880
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's them or it's not. Police

881
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 1: officers go out talk to the guys and they were

882
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: both arrested for the robbery. Maybe those of you that

883
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: were having a little bit of a hard time will

884
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 1: agree with rushing or skipping makes it hard. I make

885
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 1: a mistake, So that's why you have to learn this

886
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 1: like the back of your hand, all right. I asked

887
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: Dennisis to do her five question cross in front of

888
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 1: all of you. There's a lesson here that we're going

889
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: to learn. So there's an error and a recovery. I

890
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 1: want you to hear the error so that you can

891
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: learn from it, not do it to yourselves. I'll explain

892
00:57:55,200 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 1: it when it happens. We're good, John, you were called

893
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 1: about a robbery. I was, yes, it involved two bigger

894
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: that's correct. It did not mention the number of roberts, correct.

895
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: It did not mention the gender of the robberts. That's correct.

896
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: You arrested two men at a gas station. Yes, it

897
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 1: was two men. So you arrested two men without having

898
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 1: any underlying fact of the gender of the robbers. So,

899
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: I mean, we had other evidence to suggest that the

900
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: robbers were male, um, particularly the call um. Obviously he

901
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: was able to identify eventually that the two men. Good

902
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 1: got you got back what you wanted, right, all right?

903
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: First I put her on a spot. So thank you, Jennis,

904
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 1: just for doing that. Right. What was the question that

905
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have asked? He arrested two men without any description.

906
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 1: So the question again, jennesss, So you arrested two men

907
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 1: without having any underlying facts of the gender of the robbers.

908
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 1: Now that sounds like a yes or no question, doesn't

909
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: It doesn't. That's a yes or no question. But it's not.

910
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 1: It's not a yes or no question. Say it again.

911
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: So you arrested two men without any underlying fact, without

912
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 1: any underlying facts. What does that give the witness that

913
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 1: takes that yes no question and creates it into an

914
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 1: opportunity for a narrative. It's the one question too many.

915
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 1: It's trying to get the witness to make the argument

916
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: for you. When do we argue? When do we argue clothes?

917
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 1: We arguing clothes? Is the witness gonna argue for me? Now,

918
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 1: the witness is never on my side on a US examination,

919
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: I'm not going to help me. So this is genesis.

920
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: I told him I grew up in a Mexican household

921
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: and there was no sugarcoating. Ever. It was always very direct,

922
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 1: you know. I would come out of my mom would

923
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: say that shirt looks ugly. Go change. It was very

924
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 1: that's wrong, fix it so here with a J. I

925
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 1: really like that teaching style. That's how I grew up.

926
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 1: I kind of feel home. It doesn't hurt my feelings.

927
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 1: So if you do it wrong, it's gonna be an

928
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:30,439
Speaker 1: improper impeachment. Someone's gonna exect because you do it wrong.

929
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 1: Now you got to go back and do it again.

930
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: Now the judge is getting piste off of you, the

931
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 1: jury is getting piste off of you. So that's how

932
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 1: we're trying to be perfect right so that you don't

933
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: have to do it again, so you don't get objected

934
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: to on an improper or an imperfect impeachment showing up

935
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: the council you have I always stand. I stand when

936
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 1: I crossed the jam, and I stand when I addressed

937
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 1: the court. I definitely stand when I addressed the jury.

938
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 1: Your mind has to be show fast, so acute, so much.

939
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 1: We call that you develop what you're gonna say right then.

940
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:12,920
Speaker 1: It's a spontaneity that creates the value. My god, I've

941
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 1: seen lawyers read their cross examination. I've seen lawyers read

942
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: their close saved without passion. That's not the way to

943
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 1: do a young lawyer's you know, stand up, be vociferous,

944
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:33,959
Speaker 1: be independent, be spontaneous, be creative, fight, be in their face.

945
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 1: But you should know your path, the way that you're

946
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 1: going to go. The two three things that I want

947
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 1: from this witness, you should know what those are. You're

948
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 1: all going to court tomorrow. How ready are you going

949
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: to be? You cannot pass this class if you do

950
01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 1: not enter a piece of evidence, impeach the witness, and

951
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 1: refresh their memory. Those are the three things that you

952
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 1: have to do. That's it. I want to hear your thinking,

953
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 1: your thoughts, how you want to do it, how you

954
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 1: put your case together. It has to be logical. You're

955
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 1: gonna have your documents so that you can get to them.

956
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 1: You can easily locate that document, so that you have

957
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 1: a copy for you, a copy for the judge, a

958
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,680
Speaker 1: copy for the witness. You might have a spare copy

959
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:30,080
Speaker 1: in case coffee gets spilled on one by accident. And

960
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 1: it's curious to see whether or not you are prepared

961
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 1: for court, so you should be ready for trial. For

962
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: the students, tonight will be a long one spent pressing

963
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 1: their suits and rehearsing in front of the mirror for

964
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 1: tomorrow it's judgment tank. I take it. You know what

965
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 1: a rabbit hole looks like? Yes, you can never get out.

966
01:02:54,040 --> 01:03:00,919
Speaker 1: And what's in the bottom of there? Nothing right, rabbit's living,

967
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 1: the rabbit hole and the poop. When you're going down

968
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 1: to the rabbit hole and you're going down to a

969
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 1: barrel of boop, that's next time on Class Action. Class

970
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: Action is a production of I Heart Radio and Sound Argument, created, produced, written,

971
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 1: and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Executive producers

972
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 1: are Taylor Chacogne and Katrina Norvelle. Sound design, editing and

973
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 1: mixing by Evan Tire and Taylor Chacogne. This episode had

974
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 1: additional field production by Kristen Cabrera, Paul Ebson, Alfredo de

975
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 1: la Garza and Malia Lukomski. Additional story production by Jennifer Swan,

976
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 1: Kristin Cabrera, Jason Foster, and Wendy Nardi. For more podcasts

977
01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:53,959
Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,

978
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your favorite shows.