Speaker 1: Our intelligence can sometimes cloud our imperfections. You know, we
Speaker 1: are so intelligent and we're capable of doing so much.
Speaker 1: And what the world could look like if we just
Speaker 1: came together and sat and empathized and fought deeply about
Speaker 1: these issues and and got through some of these kind
Speaker 1: of more kind of primal aspects that we haven't quite
Speaker 1: evolved out of yet. We could achieve such a wonderful thing,
Speaker 1: or we could create such a great world, but unfortunately
Speaker 1: were nowhere near that yet. Hey, everyone, welcome back to
Speaker 1: on Purpose. I am so grateful that you come back
Speaker 1: every week to listen, learn and grow, whether you're cooking,
Speaker 1: whether you're walking, whether you're walking a dog. I'm so
Speaker 1: happy that you've chosen to give me your ears, all
Speaker 1: your views for this time. And I couldn't be more
Speaker 1: excited because today's guest is someone that I've been wanting
Speaker 1: to sit down with for a long long time. We've
Speaker 1: been connected online dming for probably about three to four
Speaker 1: years now, and he's finally in La I hear he's
Speaker 1: moving here, which makes me very very excited, not just
Speaker 1: for me, but for everyone else who's going to benefit.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the one and only Ed winters Now.
Speaker 1: For those of you that don't know, Ed is a
Speaker 1: vegan educator, public speaker and content creator, widely known for
Speaker 1: his viral debates, speeches and video essays. He has given
Speaker 1: speeches across the world, including the University of Cambridge, EPFL,
Speaker 1: Google NYC, and Google's Zurich. In early twenty nineteen, he
Speaker 1: gave two TEDx talks, surpassing a total of two million
Speaker 1: views online. You can go and check them out, and
Speaker 1: his speech you will never look at your life in
Speaker 1: the same way again, has thirty five million accumulative views
Speaker 1: online and has been given to thousands of students across
Speaker 1: the UK. Ed also has debated numerous times on live
Speaker 1: television and radio, and has been featured on the BBC,
Speaker 1: ITV and lad Bible. He co founded the No Catch
Speaker 1: Coo which I can't wait to visit in twenty twenty one,
Speaker 1: and Ethical Vegan Fish and Chip Shop Company, taking on
Speaker 1: the traditional British fish and chip shop model. And this
Speaker 1: is something that I'm very excited about today. I want
Speaker 1: you to all go and get this. He wrote his
Speaker 1: debut book, This is Vegan Propaganda and Other Lies the
Speaker 1: Meat Industry tells you. Welcome to the show, Ed Winters,
Speaker 1: or as I like to call him, earthling Ed Ed.
Speaker 1: Thank you for doing this. Oh my pleasure. Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me so good to meet you. It's a delight
Speaker 1: to be here, and I really appreciate you making time
Speaker 1: for me. And it's the real privileged to thank you. No,
Speaker 1: the feeling is very mutual. I've been a fan of
Speaker 1: what you've been doing, Like I said to you, before
Speaker 1: I came across your videos, I think probably twenty seventeen,
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, and i'd only started my journey in twenty
Speaker 1: sixteen as well. Yeah, and so I remember seeing it
Speaker 1: and under your Instagram earthling Ed, which again highly recommend
Speaker 1: everyone goes and follows. And what I really appreciated was
Speaker 1: this very thoughtful, conscious, intentional sharing and messaging around veganism,
Speaker 1: around vegan diet, around an understanding of animal welfare, around
Speaker 1: edge educating people. And up until that point, I'd only
Speaker 1: ever seen people attack people, or i'd seen people try
Speaker 1: and scare people, or i'd seen people try and cause fear.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying any of those things are bad
Speaker 1: or wrong or shouldn't be done. Everyone's allowed to communicate
Speaker 1: in the way that they feel is best. But I
Speaker 1: really connected to your way of giving a language to
Speaker 1: the work that you do. And so my wife and
Speaker 1: I are big fans. She's dying to meet you. And
Speaker 1: now that you're releasing a book as well, which you
Speaker 1: kindly sent to me, so I've had the fortune of
Speaker 1: seeing a bit of it. What I want to start
Speaker 1: with is I want to hear about your story of
Speaker 1: how you got to this point, because I think what
Speaker 1: we're used to seeing as you debating you being a
Speaker 1: very strong minded vegan, but I want to hear how
Speaker 1: you got there. So can you tell us where your
Speaker 1: journey started by telling us where you grew up, what
Speaker 1: you ate for dinner every day, what your life was like. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: like most people, I grew up in a family that
Speaker 1: hadn't really even heard of veganism. So I was raised
Speaker 1: and we used to laugh about people who are vegetarian.
Speaker 1: We used to think it was kind of a bit
Speaker 1: of a joke that people wouldn't want to eat meat,
Speaker 1: because you know, meat delicious and everyone eats meat, so
Speaker 1: why wouldn't you? And I remember we used to have
Speaker 1: this joke around the family dinner table, and it was
Speaker 1: a very bad joke. A very bad joke and it's cringey.
Speaker 1: But we used to sit around the dinner table or
Speaker 1: be eating, you know, a beef cass role, be eating sausages, chicken, breast,
Speaker 1: whatever it might be, and someone would say something like,
Speaker 1: what's the best thing about having a vegetarian around for dinner?
Speaker 1: And then the other person would go, more meat for
Speaker 1: all of us, right, and yeah, exactly. It's just like
Speaker 1: so cringe, But that's the kind of mindset we had.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't that we were against people being vegetarian.
Speaker 1: We just thought it was a strange thing. So I
Speaker 1: was raised in a very much meat dominated household. We
Speaker 1: had meat every single day. I had cheese most days, eggs,
Speaker 1: and I really liked it as well. And this kind
Speaker 1: of continue for out most of my life until I
Speaker 1: came to university and all of a sudden, I was
Speaker 1: with a group of people who are vegetarians and it
Speaker 1: became very normalized for me, and I started to think
Speaker 1: about my relationship with animals. Where did you go to university?
Speaker 1: At University of Westminster. So I was born in a
Speaker 1: place called York, which is northern England, and then I
Speaker 1: moved to London to study When I was when I
Speaker 1: was eighteen. So I got to university kind of outside
Speaker 1: of that family dynamics, starting to think a little bit
Speaker 1: more independently, started to have some vegetarian friends, and start
Speaker 1: to think about my relationship with animals a little bit more.
Speaker 1: I always considered myself to be, you know, someone who
Speaker 1: cared about animals. I mean, we all do, because intrinsically
Speaker 1: we have this very deep compassionate side to us which
Speaker 1: sees the other life forms that we share this planet
Speaker 1: with as being I think, you know, very much, kind
Speaker 1: of like a sacred relationship. You know, these are beings
Speaker 1: who we share so much with, and you know, every
Speaker 1: action that we partake in influences them in the way
Speaker 1: that they live in the wildlife, indeed in our homes
Speaker 1: with the pets that we have. So I started to
Speaker 1: think a little bit more deeply. And then in May
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, I was reading the BBC and I came
Speaker 1: across this story and it really changed my life forever.
Speaker 1: The story is about this truck carrying around six and
Speaker 1: a half thousand chickens, and the truck had crashed was
Speaker 1: going to a slaughterhouse near the city of Manchester, which
Speaker 1: is again in northern England. And I was reading this
Speaker 1: story and something made me click on this story to
Speaker 1: begin with. And I was reading this story and I
Speaker 1: was thinking, this is a terrible thing. The journalist was
Speaker 1: saying that hundreds of the birds you know, had died
Speaker 1: from the crash, hundreds more were suffering. That would suffering.
Speaker 1: Became really important to me because I recognized that the
Speaker 1: animals who you know, I consumed had the capacity to suffer.
Speaker 1: It's a really strange thing to recognize because it's obvious.
Speaker 1: We all know that cows, you know, pigs, chickens, lambs,
Speaker 1: even the marine life that we consume, we know that
Speaker 1: they suffer. But I had never really thought about it consciously.
Speaker 1: But the problem was in my fridge was a KFC
Speaker 1: and I was a huge KFC fan back when I
Speaker 1: was younger. I used to go to my local KFC outlets,
Speaker 1: you know, a couple of times a week. It was
Speaker 1: something that was very important to my identity. I was
Speaker 1: proud of my KFC consumption. I identified as being someone
Speaker 1: who who did this. It was almost like this bi
Speaker 1: weekly pilgrimage almost, you know. It really formed a huge
Speaker 1: part of my life. My afriend and I we would
Speaker 1: always get KFC watch a film. It was part of
Speaker 1: our relationship. But I had KFC in my fridge at
Speaker 1: that time where I was reading this story, and I
Speaker 1: remember just thinking about it and thinking, well, am I
Speaker 1: being hypocritical here, you know, and my actions not in
Speaker 1: alignment with my values? Am I in a bit of
Speaker 1: a state of cognitive distance where I say one thing,
Speaker 1: you know, I care about animals, I'm against animal suffering.
Speaker 1: Yet for this recognition of what these chickens are enduring
Speaker 1: and the realization that they're going to a slaughter house,
Speaker 1: you know, where they were meant to end up is
Speaker 1: not much better really potentially even worse than where they
Speaker 1: were on the side of the road. Of course, So
Speaker 1: I went vegetarian at that point because I kind of
Speaker 1: faced this fork in the road and it was you know,
Speaker 1: maybe I could bury my head in the sand and
Speaker 1: just kind of get on with it, you know, pretend
Speaker 1: that I'm not uncomfortable about this, or I can accept
Speaker 1: that there's something here that has compelled me to want
Speaker 1: to make a change in my life. So I went vegetarian,
Speaker 1: and then eight months later I became vegan. And now
Speaker 1: I went vegan because of a documentary called earth Links.
Speaker 1: But really, my girlfriend pushed me to do it. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit, you know, a little bit cynical
Speaker 1: at times, I can be a little bit i don't
Speaker 1: know the word, is a little bit stoic, you know,
Speaker 1: and maybe sometimes I don't want to accept change in
Speaker 1: my life. But she's quite the opposite. She's very open
Speaker 1: minded to things, you know, thankfully speaking. So she says, ed,
Speaker 1: you know, we should watch this documentary called Earthlings. You know,
Speaker 1: it's about why we should be vegan. And I said
Speaker 1: veganism really me, no, no, no, Vegetarian's fine. I can
Speaker 1: do that, but veganism is a bit extreme. You know.
Speaker 1: These people, you know, they're they're very forceful, they're a
Speaker 1: bit militant, they're very preachy. And I don't want to
Speaker 1: be one of those vegans. And she said no, she
Speaker 1: used to watch it. So I put it off and
Speaker 1: put it off and put it off. And then one
Speaker 1: morning we woke up and you know, I'm a little
Speaker 1: bit lazy on the mornings. It takes me a little bit,
Speaker 1: a little bit of a while to get out of bed.
Speaker 1: And my girlfriend knows this very well, of course, so
Speaker 1: she took advantage of it. She gets the laptop, she
Speaker 1: puts the documentary on, and she says, look, ed, you
Speaker 1: can get out of bed, or you can stay and
Speaker 1: watch the documentary. I don't know that's a hard bargain
Speaker 1: that so I watched it nineteen minutes later. I was,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of shell shocked. Really. The documentary is
Speaker 1: not pleasant. It isn't it's it's it's objective about what
Speaker 1: happens to animals. It's all based in the US, but
Speaker 1: it's objective about what happens to animals and farms and
Speaker 1: slaughter houses and other places as well where we do
Speaker 1: the things we do to them sadly. And I had
Speaker 1: a little pet hamster at the time called Rupert's, and
Speaker 1: he was just the most adorable hamster ever. I'd never
Speaker 1: had pets growing up, really, so Rupert was kind of
Speaker 1: the first animalized spent any considerable time with. And he
Speaker 1: was just this adorable little little little being. And he
Speaker 1: loved broccoli so much. He just loved broccoli. Any time
Speaker 1: you givehi broccoli would be so happy. But he never
Speaker 1: liked kale. You know, we didn't like kale, in which
Speaker 1: I can kind of relate to, to be fair. But
Speaker 1: he loved broccoli and didn't like kale. So I recognize
Speaker 1: he had likes and dislikes. So after the film had finished,
Speaker 1: and I was, you know, I was very upset, very shakum.
Speaker 1: I got Rupert out and had him in my hands.
Speaker 1: I'm lucky at him, and I give him some broccoli
Speaker 1: because he loves broccoli, right, And I give him some brocco,
Speaker 1: and I'm watching him eat, and he's got some little
Speaker 1: paws and he's just so cute, and I'm thinking, wow,
Speaker 1: we know, Rupert, this small, tiny animal, has so much
Speaker 1: about him that I really admire his likes, his dislikes,
Speaker 1: his personality, you know, things that make him unique. You know,
Speaker 1: hamster's love running on wheels. Well, not rup At the hamster.
Speaker 1: Rupert the hamster hated running on his wheel. He'd got
Speaker 1: no exercise. It was cardiovascular health must have been dreadful,
Speaker 1: you know. And I got my ball to run around
Speaker 1: the apartment, and you know the sea fruit balls that
Speaker 1: they can run around in, and he wouldn't use it.
Speaker 1: He would just sit there. He just liked being around us.
Speaker 1: He'd sit on the sofa with us. And so there
Speaker 1: was things that made him unique. And I thought, well,
Speaker 1: if Rupert has so much individuality about him, well what
Speaker 1: about all the chickens and pigs and cows and even
Speaker 1: salmon and tuna? What about all of these other animals?
Speaker 1: And even as a vegetarian, I was abstaining from a
Speaker 1: huge part of the problem, but there was still all
Speaker 1: the other aspects, the dairy, the eggs, and the you know,
Speaker 1: the clothing, the leave of the wall, the things I
Speaker 1: didn't really think about even as a vegetarian. I thought,
Speaker 1: what about all these animals who go through these processes,
Speaker 1: who were individuals with likes and dislikes, who can feel,
Speaker 1: who can suffering and also experience pleasure and happiness as well?
Speaker 1: You know, animals experienced you know, positive emotions, not just
Speaker 1: negative emotions as of course we do. What makes them
Speaker 1: different to Rupert's. And I couldn't couldn't think of a
Speaker 1: justification for continuing. So yeah, I went vegan and that
Speaker 1: was that. Wow. And your girlfriend at the time was
Speaker 1: already vegan. Now, we went vegan together, but she was
Speaker 1: making changes before I was. You know, she was thinking proactively.
Speaker 1: She was you know, we had almond milk and soy
Speaker 1: milk in the fridge. You know, we'd made small steps
Speaker 1: because she had been influencing me to do so, and
Speaker 1: she knew that if I sat down and watched this documentary,
Speaker 1: that would be it. And I knew it as well,
Speaker 1: which is why I turned a blind dying. And I
Speaker 1: think that's another thing that often happens is there's something
Speaker 1: called the Ostrich effect, which is kind of like a
Speaker 1: cognitive bias. So basically, when we are confronted with information
Speaker 1: that makes us feel uncomfortable, when there's the prospect of
Speaker 1: something that might challenge us in the way that you know,
Speaker 1: we perceived to be inconvenient, we can just turn a
Speaker 1: blind eye to it. And I think what we do
Speaker 1: to animals as a great example of this. I think
Speaker 1: we've all had a moment where we've maybe seen something
Speaker 1: shared online, or we've had a conversation with a friend
Speaker 1: who's maybe vegan, or we've just looked at a piece
Speaker 1: of meat on our dinner plate and just fought for
Speaker 1: a moment, just had you know, something passed through our minds,
Speaker 1: and in that moment, we can kind of do two things,
Speaker 1: you know, acknowledge it or turn a blind eye. And
Speaker 1: we often turn a blind eye because it's easier and
Speaker 1: more comfortable to do so, and that's what I was doing.
Speaker 1: You know, I knew, I knew what happened deep down.
Speaker 1: I knew there's something about it that made me feel uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: but I ignored it for so long. And she was
Speaker 1: confronting that a little bit earlier than I was, and
Speaker 1: thankfully pushed me to confront it as well, because you know,
Speaker 1: through that confrontation of our values, we can strive to
Speaker 1: be more in alignment with who we truly are as individuals.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a powerful thing that I've realized
Speaker 1: about being vegan, is it's just is pushed me to
Speaker 1: reevaluate my place, you know, my relationship with others, how
Speaker 1: I interact with humans as well as animals, just you know,
Speaker 1: how my actions impact the world around me, and how
Speaker 1: we are vessels who can create, you know, a more
Speaker 1: positive world or a more negative world. And sometimes we
Speaker 1: feel disempowered in life, you know, especially with some of
Speaker 1: the geopolitical things that go on, we can feel very disempowered.
Speaker 1: But for me, one of the greatest things about veganism
Speaker 1: is the empowerment to know that we can make a
Speaker 1: difference every day, you know, positive difference. And she encouraged
Speaker 1: me to learn that early on. I love that our
Speaker 1: journeys got some similarities to it. So when I grew
Speaker 1: up eating meat as well and similar to you, like
Speaker 1: going to McDonald's was like our birthday like experience, Like
Speaker 1: I used to love going to McDonald's for my birthday.
Speaker 1: And I remember when I was around probably around fifteen
Speaker 1: years old, and I used to walk past the butcher's
Speaker 1: every day on my way to school and on my
Speaker 1: way back to back from school at a bus stop,
Speaker 1: and I would walk past the butchers. I can see
Speaker 1: the street where I grew up right now, on Green Lanes,
Speaker 1: and they would hang a lot of the animals in
Speaker 1: the window. And I never ate a chicken that looked
Speaker 1: like that. To me. A chicken looked like this perfect
Speaker 1: crispy round burger, right, That's what chicken look like to me.
Speaker 1: And I ate pork sausages, but they never looked like
Speaker 1: pigs hanging. I just ate the pork sausages that you
Speaker 1: buy in the store. And so for me, when I
Speaker 1: would walk past that butchers every day on the way
Speaker 1: to school and on the way back from school, that's
Speaker 1: when it started to hit me where I was like,
Speaker 1: no no, No, that's the same thing. Like I couldn't
Speaker 1: bear to look at a hanging pig, I couldn't bear
Speaker 1: to look at a hanging chicken. But I would get
Speaker 1: really excited about eating my burger and I wouldn't make
Speaker 1: the connection when I ate the burger until that point.
Speaker 1: And so I remember deciding that I would become vegetarian
Speaker 1: at the time, and I lasted around three months before
Speaker 1: I went back into McDonald's. Three months later. I was
Speaker 1: craving it so badly for taste. And then from that
Speaker 1: point on, I never have eaten meat since that day.
Speaker 1: And so that was around I was fifteen, sixteen years old,
Speaker 1: and so that's been around eighteen years now. And then
Speaker 1: it was my wife who introduced me more to plant
Speaker 1: based than vegan. She's been vegan for like ten years now,
Speaker 1: and so she's been vegan for a long time, and
Speaker 1: she's the one who trained me and helped me shift
Speaker 1: my habits and also be a healthy vegan and not
Speaker 1: become an unhealthy vegan and all these beautiful things that
Speaker 1: she's thought about. And you see that, and you sit
Speaker 1: down with students, you sit down with people from all
Speaker 1: over the world, from all walks of life and hear there,
Speaker 1: you debate them, you hear their answers, you hear their
Speaker 1: options and their opportunities. I want to go back to
Speaker 1: talking about when you made that journey and you made
Speaker 1: that shift. Did you ever land up at the other
Speaker 1: side of becoming the militant version that you didn't want
Speaker 1: to be? Oh? I have at times, and I think
Speaker 1: that's that encouraged me to hopefully become more effective as
Speaker 1: an advocate to someone who speaks about this issue. I
Speaker 1: remember when I had first kind of gone vegan, I
Speaker 1: started to first kind of venture into kind of like
Speaker 1: activism and education, you know, and I was uploading some
Speaker 1: videos and I had this this conversation with two South
Speaker 1: African guys in Trafalgar Square in London, and I was
Speaker 1: asking them they know some questions about animals and they
Speaker 1: were telling me that they hunted in South Africa and
Speaker 1: they thought it was okay if it was humane. And
Speaker 1: I said, what does this word humane mean because we
Speaker 1: for this, you know, this word humane around a lot
Speaker 1: when we talk about our treatment of animals, you know.
Speaker 1: And they said, well, you know, we think it an
Speaker 1: example of a humane death might be some electricity and
Speaker 1: then you know the knife, you know, And I said,
Speaker 1: how would you like that have happened to a family member?
Speaker 1: And I was quite abrupt about it, and I were
Speaker 1: really taken aback, and they said they were very unhappy
Speaker 1: about what I'd said, and it was the manner in
Speaker 1: which I'd said it. And I reflect a lot on
Speaker 1: that moment, because their reaction to me showed that I'd
Speaker 1: actually been very ineffective in what I was trying to do,
Speaker 1: and the way that they kind of like seemed very
Speaker 1: accosted by that comment, and the manner, the tone of
Speaker 1: my voice, the language, my body language, which is of
Speaker 1: course so important when we're communicating, how we'd look as
Speaker 1: opposed to, you know, as well as how we say
Speaker 1: things and what we say. And I reflected a lot
Speaker 1: after that because I realized that I was fulfilling that stereotype.
Speaker 1: No Vegans do have a stereotype, whether for better or
Speaker 1: for worse, whether it's true or not. Some people do
Speaker 1: fulfill that stereotype, but many vegans don't. Most vegans don't.
Speaker 1: And I think often we build up this caricature almost
Speaker 1: of what a vegan is because in a way it
Speaker 1: allows us to distance ourselves from being vegan, you know,
Speaker 1: or I don't want to be like them, which is
Speaker 1: what I used to be like, I don't want to
Speaker 1: be like them because they're like this, when actually it
Speaker 1: stops us from thinking about the arguments. But I realized
Speaker 1: in that moment I was kind of fulfilling that stereotype,
Speaker 1: which is everything that I don't want to do and
Speaker 1: my content. I try, mostly, you know, as much as
Speaker 1: I can in the situations i'm in, to try and
Speaker 1: not be that person that seems like they're taking a
Speaker 1: position that is judgmental, is looking down on someone, and
Speaker 1: is instead hopefully asking people questions in the way that
Speaker 1: encourages them to think proactively for themselves. And so, like
Speaker 1: you said, I try very hard to have conversations with
Speaker 1: people from all across the spectrum. So I have conversations
Speaker 1: with people who've never thought about these issues before, who
Speaker 1: are just causual you meet darian egg eaters who aren't
Speaker 1: necessarily that invested in doing so, but just do it
Speaker 1: because they always have. But I also have conversations with
Speaker 1: people on the other end of the spectrum, you know, farmers,
Speaker 1: people who are very much ingrained in these systems, whose
Speaker 1: families farmed animals, you know, as grandparents found animals, who
Speaker 1: are you know, as much in these cultures and communities
Speaker 1: as we are in our own cultures and communities, and
Speaker 1: it forms their identities. And I always try and take
Speaker 1: that same approach of trying to understand people's viewpoints. We
Speaker 1: live in a slightly troubling time when it comes to
Speaker 1: the disconnection and division that exists. The US is a
Speaker 1: great example, but it's not just to let's be honest,
Speaker 1: and veganism can have what seems to be at times
Speaker 1: an element of division to it. But ultimately, the way
Speaker 1: that I see it is that, like everyone else in
Speaker 1: this world, hopefully by and large, vegans are just trying
Speaker 1: to make this world a little bit better, just trying
Speaker 1: to reduce suffering, you know, improve the environment, improve people's health.
Speaker 1: And I think we all share that in common. So
Speaker 1: when I have a conversation with a farmer, who's who's
Speaker 1: in that mindset, you know, I try and view it
Speaker 1: from their perspective, which is, you know, they want to
Speaker 1: see the same things I do. It's just we've split
Speaker 1: apart because of the way that we were raised on
Speaker 1: how to get there, and so it's just about me
Speaker 1: trying to show them. Well, Actually, the way that you've
Speaker 1: been raised as well as well as creating validity in
Speaker 1: your views, doesn't actually create authenticity in the objectivity of
Speaker 1: your views. When I mean by that, it doesn't make
Speaker 1: them right. So I try and see people where they are,
Speaker 1: but encourage them to reflect, to look beyond their views,
Speaker 1: to look beyond their culture, to look beyond their communities,
Speaker 1: to look beyond their social groups and social norms, and
Speaker 1: reflect on something larger, which is, you know, how do
Speaker 1: we all achieve what we want to achieve, which is
Speaker 1: hopefully a world of more cohesion, less suffering humans, animals
Speaker 1: to everyone, And what you just said, there's beautiful, because
Speaker 1: that's what the human capacity of the mind is for. Like,
Speaker 1: we know that animals struggle to see beyond certain barriers.
Speaker 1: And even then we see animals, you know, drag different
Speaker 1: animals off the street and do these beautiful acts of kindness.
Speaker 1: But overall, as humans, we do have the broad mindedness
Speaker 1: and the capacity to see beyond just our territory, right right.
Speaker 1: And so when I when I'm listening to you, I'm wondering,
Speaker 1: because I know a lot of people who saw earth things,
Speaker 1: who saw what were some of the others game changes.
Speaker 1: What were the other ones that were opinion A popular one,
Speaker 1: cowspiracy has been cospiracy that was really but yeah, So
Speaker 1: I had a lot of friends actually who saw those
Speaker 1: and they all did the same thing. They became vegan
Speaker 1: straight after watching it. But then it wasn't sustainable for them.
Speaker 1: They didn't know how to bring into their diet. Tell
Speaker 1: me about how you made it sustainable? How did it
Speaker 1: really work? Because it's been six years for you now
Speaker 1: that I would say, it's a fairly long time since
Speaker 1: you discovered this path and know about it. How have
Speaker 1: you made it sustainable? How have you made it healthy
Speaker 1: for yourself? Because I think the biggest thing people struggle
Speaker 1: with that I know that have watched those documentaries is
Speaker 1: not that they disagree, It's that they're just like Jay,
Speaker 1: I'm putting on weight, I'm eating fried food all the time.
Speaker 1: I'm I don't know how to cook with it. I
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm doing. And then six weeks later,
Speaker 1: I've heard many friends go back, So walk us through
Speaker 1: how you made it sustainable? Yeah, I mean it's a
Speaker 1: really good point. And just before I touched a Night's
Speaker 1: want to just reiterate the point that you just made
Speaker 1: just previous to that, which I thought was really interesting,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, it's important thing to recognize that
Speaker 1: humans and non human animals are vastly different from one
Speaker 1: another as a role animal species. You know, we as
Speaker 1: humans have capabilities and capacities that other animals in this
Speaker 1: planet don't have, and intellects you know, moral agency, height,
Speaker 1: you know, heights, and cognitive capacities. These are all things
Speaker 1: that humans hold which other animals don't, not in the
Speaker 1: same way as that we do at least. But I
Speaker 1: think with that comes a great deal of responsibility. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a quote from Spider Man Uncle Ben says, with
Speaker 1: great power comes great responsibility. And I think that's a
Speaker 1: great great thing, because we as humans do have power.
Speaker 1: We have so much power. We have power over each other,
Speaker 1: but we have power over the world and of animals
Speaker 1: within this world. And so when we have that situation
Speaker 1: of authority, we have kind of two choices, don't we. We
Speaker 1: We can even be kind of tyrannical and abusive with
Speaker 1: our power and authority, or we can kind of be
Speaker 1: stewards and nurturers like parents. You know, parents have ultimate
Speaker 1: power over their children. But we see children because of
Speaker 1: the disadvantagement of their lack of cognition, lack of agency,
Speaker 1: parents of a responsibility to look after children. We in
Speaker 1: a society have the responsibility to look after those less
Speaker 1: privileged than us, who don't have the situations that we have,
Speaker 1: who are maybe disenfranchised or or weakened within the constructs
Speaker 1: of this society that we live in. How we should
Speaker 1: live is those with power should look after those who
Speaker 1: who don't have those same attributes that we do. And
Speaker 1: I think the relationship of animals is the same. We
Speaker 1: as humans are absolutely more dominant and can be more dominant,
Speaker 1: but that dominance doesn't give us the right to arbitrarily
Speaker 1: harm quite the opposite. I think, you know, to look
Speaker 1: after in nurture and try and create a better world,
Speaker 1: you know, not just for us. Come back to the
Speaker 1: point you made it, because I'm really glad you said that, Karen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the point that you made is potentially in the most
Speaker 1: important points. The recognition that we want to change is
Speaker 1: really important, But then the capacity to do that is
Speaker 1: very different. So for me, when I first went vegan,
Speaker 1: I made a dreadful mistake, which is I only ate
Speaker 1: Kale and Keenoir are right. I thought, you know, vegans
Speaker 1: eat this type of food, therefore I have to eat
Speaker 1: this type of food, and you should eat kale and keenoa.
Speaker 1: They're two great food sauces. But I was eating a
Speaker 1: lot of keenoa and kale and thinking, why don't I
Speaker 1: feel full? You know, why don't I feel satiated? And
Speaker 1: I realized that I was taking out you know, big,
Speaker 1: kind of calorie dense foods that were kind of full
Speaker 1: of protein and full of fat, and I wasn't replace
Speaker 1: them with necessarily good alternatives. So I was eating less
Speaker 1: calories than I should have done. So I was feeling hungrier,
Speaker 1: and maybe I wasn't eating enough. So I think the
Speaker 1: first thing to do is to research, really important to research,
Speaker 1: because what we want, as you know, as we change
Speaker 1: into this new way of life, is to make sure
Speaker 1: that we do it in a way that optimizes the
Speaker 1: longevity of that change. As you say, people do it
Speaker 1: for a little bit and then they go back because
Speaker 1: it's more comfortable and more convenient, or maybe you know,
Speaker 1: they don't feel like they're eating enough and they're not
Speaker 1: full enough, and so they think, well, this vegan thing
Speaker 1: doesn't work for me, So what we have to do
Speaker 1: is do a little bit of research. So I always
Speaker 1: say to people, recognize why you want to make the change,
Speaker 1: then sit down and look at Okay, protein sources really easy.
Speaker 1: It's really easy when you look at it, but it
Speaker 1: feels like it's a big thing when you're before your vegans.
Speaker 1: Look at protein sources. How do I get protein? Look
Speaker 1: at iron, especially if you're a wrong woman, how do
Speaker 1: you get your iron? Really important zinc? You know, a
Speaker 1: mega free. Just do a little bit of research and
Speaker 1: look into how you can do it. And then also
Speaker 1: don't be afraid to experiment. Now, the thing about being
Speaker 1: vegan is you don't have to reinvent the wheel. That's
Speaker 1: what I like about it. You know, for me, when
Speaker 1: I first went vegan, it was a different time. There
Speaker 1: was not the options that we have now. There was
Speaker 1: not the recipes online like in the abundance they are now.
Speaker 1: I mean, your wife rad has so much great food
Speaker 1: on her Instagram, you know, so she's a great resource.
Speaker 1: And Instagram is a great resource with people looking to
Speaker 1: find you know, plant miss meals and plant miss foods.
Speaker 1: So do a little bit of research, find some meals
Speaker 1: that you like, but also take the meals you already
Speaker 1: like and simplify it down. For me, I loved pasta.
Speaker 1: I've always loved pasta. But I also like stir fries, curries, burritos, nachos, tacos,
Speaker 1: for heaters, whatever it might be. Find what aspect of
Speaker 1: it isn't vegan. Okay, Spaghetti barnad is easy. It's the
Speaker 1: beef mints, right, So take out the cow from the
Speaker 1: meal and replace it with soyments or lentils or whatever
Speaker 1: you want to replace it with. You can cook it
Speaker 1: exactly the same way and you've just changed one thing
Speaker 1: and you eat the exact same food. So I think
Speaker 1: just making small replacements to meals you already like to
Speaker 1: simplifies it down because otherwise we think I've got to
Speaker 1: eat all this vegan food and it's going to be
Speaker 1: really tricky because I'm changing everything about my life. It
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be that way. So just those little
Speaker 1: incremental changes in the foods that you're consuming go a
Speaker 1: long way. And then just being empowered to know where
Speaker 1: you're getting nutrients from, how am I going to be healthy?
Speaker 1: Am I hitting my daily targets? And if you're especially worried,
Speaker 1: there are sites like chronometer. Basically, it's just like a website.
Speaker 1: You can get an app on your phone and you
Speaker 1: just log your food. So you put I've had eighty
Speaker 1: grams of brown rice, one hundred grams of brccli, whatever
Speaker 1: it might be, and it tells you the calories, it
Speaker 1: tells you the nutrients, and so at the end of
Speaker 1: the day you can go, yeah, I got all the calories.
Speaker 1: I here's my eye and here's my protein. It's all good.
Speaker 1: Calcium could be a bit higher, so tomorrow I'll have
Speaker 1: another glass of soy milk or something. And then you
Speaker 1: can just cater your diet in your lifestyle around that,
Speaker 1: because you know you're hitting your targets. I think that's
Speaker 1: a good thing to do. Yeah, yeah, And I guess
Speaker 1: when you've been doing it, you seem fairly healthy, so
Speaker 1: that's a good thingefully yeah. And that was it for
Speaker 1: me too, Like I cut out dairy because I was
Speaker 1: already vegetarian when I married Ryther. I cut out dairy
Speaker 1: basically the night we got married, and so as soon
Speaker 1: as the next day when we were moved into our
Speaker 1: home and everything, we were now not eating any Dairyes,
Speaker 1: So the hardest things for me were cheese and chocolate
Speaker 1: because I love chocolate and a door chocolate It's like
Speaker 1: my favorite thing in the world. And cheese of course, right,
Speaker 1: And actually the crazy thing is since that, So that's
Speaker 1: a cheese of course, right, and actually the crazy thing
Speaker 1: is since that. So that's been five years for me
Speaker 1: since we got married, and I feel so much better
Speaker 1: just on the basis of how I feel. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: didn't do it for that reason. I didn't. I did
Speaker 1: it for animals, like understanding that I was still disconnected.
Speaker 1: I did it from that point of view. But I
Speaker 1: feel so much better for it, and I'm healthier for
Speaker 1: it because I'm not consuming as much sugar through the chocolate. Rather,
Speaker 1: these introduced me to all these naturally sweetened cocao nibs
Speaker 1: and all this kind of stuff. So I eat this
Speaker 1: thing called monk fruit ironically, yeah, from La Canto or something,
Speaker 1: there's a brand like that, and there's no artificial sugars. No,
Speaker 1: They're all naturally sweetened the monk fruit. So that's been
Speaker 1: better for me cutting out cheese. I've just cut out
Speaker 1: cheese completely, so I barely eat even vegan cheese options
Speaker 1: because I'm enjoying your trying new foods and experiencing new flavors,
Speaker 1: and so I feel like making it sustainable is so important.
Speaker 1: But now let's let's go macro. I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: about the vegan propaganda, the book that is out right
Speaker 1: now that i'd love for people to go and read.
Speaker 1: You have three parts. It's a question of morality, playing
Speaker 1: with fire and breaking down the barriers. So we started
Speaker 1: very micro about your journey. I want to zoom out
Speaker 1: and go macro. Now let's talk about morality because I find,
Speaker 1: as we've talked about, for a lot of people, it's
Speaker 1: as simple as being rupert. This is what I like
Speaker 1: and this is what I don't like. Right like Rupert
Speaker 1: likes broccoli, doesn't like kale, I like meat, I don't
Speaker 1: like vegetables or fruits. There's that option. There's also the
Speaker 1: idea of what's wrong with it? Right there? They aren't
Speaker 1: as smart as us, as we both already agreed, or
Speaker 1: they can't make those decisions and choices. They've been created
Speaker 1: for that. That's what they're there for. They're on the
Speaker 1: planet for. When you're looking at morality as a whole,
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, how how are you trying to help people
Speaker 1: understand that being an animal lover and eating meat don't
Speaker 1: go hand in hand. For me, this issue of morality
Speaker 1: comes down to our capacity to have a choice. You know.
Speaker 1: Obviously it's important to recognize that throughout most of our
Speaker 1: history as humans, we were hunter gatherers, right, you know,
Speaker 1: we hunted to survive. Meat has always formed a big
Speaker 1: part of our diet. It provided a sustenance and nutrients
Speaker 1: when we needed it during those times. And you know,
Speaker 1: it got us to where we are, allowed us to
Speaker 1: live as a species and survive and thrive. Along with
Speaker 1: all the berries that we foraged and all the nuts
Speaker 1: that we foraged, all of that combined to us being
Speaker 1: where we are now. But we live in a unique time.
Speaker 1: We have been able to understand what our bodies need
Speaker 1: to survive. We understand vitamins and nutrients and minerals. That's
Speaker 1: only you know, something we've done in the past hundred years. Really,
Speaker 1: we recognize other plant you know, where we can get
Speaker 1: these sources from in plant foods, So we have an
Speaker 1: intelligence and education that we didn't have before. We also
Speaker 1: know more about animals now. Back for our history, we
Speaker 1: used to view animals as kind of these automatons. Right,
Speaker 1: they were there with us, but they weren't sent in.
Speaker 1: They didn't feel You know, we're very flippant in our
Speaker 1: treatment of animals, and we are still today, of course,
Speaker 1: but now we understand more about animals. We understand their complexity.
Speaker 1: You know, we look at documentaries about animals in the
Speaker 1: wild and we see them do amazing things. But more
Speaker 1: than that, we understand and appreciate their individuality in a
Speaker 1: way that previously we probably didn't write. So we have
Speaker 1: an education about how we can be vegan, but we
Speaker 1: also an education about animals. And because we understand what
Speaker 1: animals are able to feel, and we have an understanding
Speaker 1: of what they endure through the processes in which we
Speaker 1: put them in, we can recognize something about them, which
Speaker 1: is that they are having a subjective experience. So what
Speaker 1: I mean by that is we farm eighty billion land
Speaker 1: animals every single year. When you factor in marine animals,
Speaker 1: that number becomes not point eight to two point three trillion.
Speaker 1: That's how many marine animals we kill fish, not point
Speaker 1: eight to two point three trillion every single year. Staggering number, huge, huge,
Speaker 1: eighty billion land animals, and that those numbers are shocking
Speaker 1: and and we say those numbers and we think, wow,
Speaker 1: that's big, but they're very hard to understand because they're
Speaker 1: so huge. It's it's just the statistic. It's just a number.
Speaker 1: How does that look? How do we quantify what that means?
Speaker 1: It's almost impossible. So the best way to look at
Speaker 1: it is that out of all of those billions and trillions,
Speaker 1: each and every one of those is an individual. Now,
Speaker 1: to me, this is where it gets disturbing and alarming,
Speaker 1: because I think about everything that we do to an animal,
Speaker 1: and I think about every single individual animal is experiencing
Speaker 1: that on their own. You know, when we suffer, we
Speaker 1: suffer as individuals. Obviously we can share that the empathy
Speaker 1: of others suffering, but the pain that we feel is
Speaker 1: pain that we feel, and when things happen to us,
Speaker 1: we embody that for our anxieties, our fears, our terrors,
Speaker 1: our worries, and of course the visceral and physical feeling
Speaker 1: of what we're enduring as well. I think about each
Speaker 1: and every individual animal enduring that, and that just magnifies
Speaker 1: the scale to me in a way that you can't
Speaker 1: recognize within those purely you know, statistical numbers. Because when
Speaker 1: we're hone in on each individual animal, enduring that. I think, Wow,
Speaker 1: you know, every decision we make has an impact on someone.
Speaker 1: We often don't think of animals as someone's We call
Speaker 1: them it. You know, it's a chicken, it's a pig.
Speaker 1: They're only a chicken, They're only a pig. But what
Speaker 1: we fail to recognize is to that pig or chicken,
Speaker 1: their life is as valuable to them as ours as
Speaker 1: to us, because we have one life and they may
Speaker 1: not be able to rationalize the concept of death and
Speaker 1: the concept of not existing in the way that we can.
Speaker 1: But they avoid situations of fear, They avoid situations that
Speaker 1: cause them suffering. They value pleasure and pain over negative
Speaker 1: environments because they value being content. And really, when we
Speaker 1: boil down our existence, that's all we want as well,
Speaker 1: to be content, to be happy. I mean, your work
Speaker 1: is about making people feel as an individual, like they
Speaker 1: belong to themselves. You know, you're increasing people's autonomy, you're
Speaker 1: increasing people's self esteem, You're giving them a sense of
Speaker 1: self worth. You know, we all work, and I think
Speaker 1: so much of what you do, which is so amazing,
Speaker 1: is you empower people to believe in themselves as an individual.
Speaker 1: And so what I'm saying about that is we value
Speaker 1: ourselves well, they value themselves as well. And what we
Speaker 1: do to them is we deny them their autonomy, we
Speaker 1: deny them the right to their own body. And so
Speaker 1: it becomes an issue of reality because we don't have
Speaker 1: to do that anymore. We don't have to do these
Speaker 1: things to them anymore because we have the education and
Speaker 1: awareness to know that there are other ways. And so,
Speaker 1: to simplify it down, ask a really simple question, are
Speaker 1: we against animal cruelty? Do we think that reducing animal
Speaker 1: suffering is morally preferable to not? Everyone says yes to that,
Speaker 1: and everyone says that they're against animal cruelty. So then
Speaker 1: we have to say, well, what does being cruel to
Speaker 1: someone mean? Being cruel to someone means causing them physical
Speaker 1: or mental, emotional, psychological harm for an unnecessary reason, something
Speaker 1: that doesn't need to happen, but negatively impacts them in
Speaker 1: a non consensual way. That's being cruel to someone, whether
Speaker 1: it's bullying, whether it's something a bit more abusive, whatever
Speaker 1: it might be. But what we do to animals must
Speaker 1: therefore constitute an act of cruelty because we don't have
Speaker 1: to do it, and it causes them physical harm, mental harm,
Speaker 1: emotional harm, and it's non consensual. You know, these animals
Speaker 1: they don't they don't willfully agree to be exploited. This
Speaker 1: isn't an environment they wish to be in. And then
Speaker 1: we put them into something called a slaughter house and
Speaker 1: we call them humane. Okay, So what does the word
Speaker 1: humane mean? Well, if we open up a phasaurus, find
Speaker 1: the words humane in the phasaurus. Okay, what are the synonyms?
Speaker 1: What words mean humane? We see compassionate, we see benevolent,
Speaker 1: we see kind. If I call you a humane person,
Speaker 1: I'm saying that you're inherently a good person who values
Speaker 1: others and their feelings, and you want to be compassionate,
Speaker 1: and you are a humane person, Jay, because you embody
Speaker 1: all of those those characteristics. But then what happens in
Speaker 1: the slaughterhouse couldn't possibly be humane because it's not compassionate
Speaker 1: to exploit someone else needlessly, it's not it's not benevolent
Speaker 1: to take the life of someone when we don't have to.
Speaker 1: You know, and many of us do have pets in
Speaker 1: our life, dogs, cats, and it's just thing to say,
Speaker 1: but unfortunately we will probably live to see them be euphanized.
Speaker 1: It's a very sad time for people to experience the
Speaker 1: loss of a family member, because that's how we view
Speaker 1: these animals as family members. Would we ever take them
Speaker 1: to a slaughter house to be euphanized. Never, the thought
Speaker 1: of that would would offend people, would make them so
Speaker 1: sad to think of their beloved family member, and during that, well,
Speaker 1: then it can't be humane, it can't be so when
Speaker 1: we talk about this issue of morality, fundamentally, it's we
Speaker 1: don't have to do this. They're sentient beings who feel
Speaker 1: they're very different to us. But what makes them morally
Speaker 1: relevant is their capacity to suffer, experience pain, the fact
Speaker 1: that they do value their own life, they value their
Speaker 1: own existence. They seek to be of their families, if
Speaker 1: that's what is in their nature. You know, cows from
Speaker 1: these strong matriarchal herds, chickens have these flocks. They form
Speaker 1: deep connections with one another, and they can form deep
Speaker 1: connections with us when we give them the chantity like
Speaker 1: animal sanctuaries and places where they're not used and exploited
Speaker 1: and killed. So that's why it's a moral issue for me.
Speaker 1: Great answer, What a great answer. I really appreciate that
Speaker 1: answer because I was listening to you thinking just how
Speaker 1: much culture and tradition impacts it too. So I remember
Speaker 1: going to India for the first time ever when I
Speaker 1: was nine years old, and when I lived as a
Speaker 1: monk there for plenty of time. A big part of
Speaker 1: it was caring for cows. Cows are seen as a
Speaker 1: sacred animal in India and in families growing up in India.
Speaker 1: If you look years ago, a cow would be the
Speaker 1: family pet. I mean, it wouldn't be a pet. It
Speaker 1: would be considered a mother, but it would be considered
Speaker 1: part of the family. And the cow would give you milk,
Speaker 1: and the cow would be taken care of, and the
Speaker 1: cow would be loved and adored and revered. And you'd
Speaker 1: almost find dogs that would just walk around stray on
Speaker 1: the street and people wouldn't give them the attention we
Speaker 1: see in the West. So why do you think we've
Speaker 1: been able to build up such a deep, loving relationship
Speaker 1: with dogs and cats? But why do you think we've struggled?
Speaker 1: Because I've seen people play with cows the way we
Speaker 1: play with our dogs. And I know that sounds really
Speaker 1: strange to anyone has never seen it. But I've seen
Speaker 1: people in India hold their cow and hug their cows
Speaker 1: and have that same very deep intimate relationship with the cow.
Speaker 1: But in the West we don't really ever experience that
Speaker 1: apart from with the dog and a cat. Why have
Speaker 1: we been so good at giving our compassion and love
Speaker 1: there but not there? I think there's kind of like
Speaker 1: a utility aspect to this. And what I mean by
Speaker 1: that is historically, especially I guess to the corps where
Speaker 1: we've been, we've we we gave dogs like a task,
Speaker 1: and that task was often been a lookout for us,
Speaker 1: so they would pull our our equipment, you know, like
Speaker 1: us on sledges and search and so we've we've always
Speaker 1: often valued dogs, but in a different way to the
Speaker 1: other animals. We've used cows as like farm labor, we've
Speaker 1: used you know, other animals in different capacities. But for dogs,
Speaker 1: we've always had a little bit more of an intimate
Speaker 1: relationship because of the nature of the work that we
Speaker 1: used to you know, use them for. And then as
Speaker 1: we started to evolve as a species and we no
Speaker 1: longer needed you know, kind of the ancestors of huskies
Speaker 1: to be our lookouts because of course, you know, from
Speaker 1: wolves and so we know we no longer needed them
Speaker 1: to look out for us, so we need no longer
Speaker 1: needed them to call our sledges. And our relationship with
Speaker 1: these animals started to change. Because we still had a
Speaker 1: connection with them, we start to view them a little
Speaker 1: bit differently. So what we do is we categorize animals differently.
Speaker 1: So we have wild animals for instance, and if someone
Speaker 1: poaches a wild animal, you know, cessile, the line killer,
Speaker 1: there's an uproar because in our minds, we've categorized them
Speaker 1: as being not for that purpose. They exist in the wild.
Speaker 1: We don't need to get anything from them. They don't
Speaker 1: they don't need to earn our respect, you know, they
Speaker 1: do their own thing. And then we have kind of pets,
Speaker 1: and they've earned our respects in a different way. They've
Speaker 1: earned the right to live in our eyes because we
Speaker 1: can form an emotional response with them. We have for
Speaker 1: our history. They can provide utility as members of our family,
Speaker 1: provide us with love, provide us with comfort, provide us
Speaker 1: with mental health support, which is a you know, a
Speaker 1: great thing that pets can do as well. And by pets,
Speaker 1: I use the word pets because it's kind of like
Speaker 1: a conventional term. What I mean is kind of companion animals,
Speaker 1: And let me just explain what I mean by that briefly.
Speaker 1: When I say companion animals, it's just to reiterate the
Speaker 1: point that they are kind of coexisting with us in
Speaker 1: our relationships, our families. The word almost signifies like we
Speaker 1: have some sort of authority over them, and we do.
Speaker 1: But when we say companions, it kind of symbolizes that
Speaker 1: relationship more wholesomely. I think it symbolizes that we coexist
Speaker 1: together and they're here for our life and we're they're
Speaker 1: for theirs, So it's kind of a bit more wholesome.
Speaker 1: So companion animals. So we've categorized these animals has been
Speaker 1: companions because the utility from what we get from them
Speaker 1: is different. But then we've categorized as other section of animals,
Speaker 1: we call them food. And what we've essentially done is
Speaker 1: we've otherized them. Otherizing is, you know, a very toxic
Speaker 1: thing that we've done with other humans as well, where
Speaker 1: we put them in a different classification and then we
Speaker 1: value them differently, and then we create justifications to explain
Speaker 1: why they're in that category. So what we said before,
Speaker 1: they're not as intelligent as us, or pigs are dirty,
Speaker 1: chickens are stupid. We've kind of created these arbitrary classifications
Speaker 1: for these animals, and then we treat them differently because
Speaker 1: we've classified them differently. Things that we would never do
Speaker 1: to companion animals, things that we would never like to
Speaker 1: happen to wild animal we can do arbitrarily to these
Speaker 1: animals because they're the food animals, and so their place
Speaker 1: in this world and our relationship with them and the
Speaker 1: utility we can get through them is different, and that's
Speaker 1: why they're here. So part of it is obviously cultural.
Speaker 1: The question to ask ourselves is well, is something moral
Speaker 1: simply because it's cultural. I think we all agree that
Speaker 1: that's not the case, and we look for our history,
Speaker 1: don't when we see examples of things that were cultural,
Speaker 1: examples of things that were traditional. But we're not moral,
Speaker 1: And thankfully we challenged ourselves to understand that, and we
Speaker 1: changed our relationship with the oppressed in those scenarios to
Speaker 1: hopefully try and create better systems of a more equality,
Speaker 1: which obviously still needs a lot of work on as well.
Speaker 1: But when it comes to the animals that we've categorized
Speaker 1: as food, culturally, we have ingrained this behavior culturally. We
Speaker 1: have allowed this to become such a dominant viewpoint that
Speaker 1: we never really think about it. What's interesting is as children,
Speaker 1: we don't have these categorizations. Give a four year old
Speaker 1: child a piglet and a puppy that the child isn't
Speaker 1: going to push the piglet to one side to say,
Speaker 1: you know, kill this animal, but let me live this animal.
Speaker 1: The child enjoys the company of both because they don't
Speaker 1: see that distinction. Yet, we raise children to start to
Speaker 1: view animals differently. It's this term called species is basically,
Speaker 1: what it means is that we arbitrarily exploit different animals
Speaker 1: based on the species they're born into. So, you know,
Speaker 1: we harm a pig because they're a pig. If that
Speaker 1: pig was a dog, it would be different. But you know, fundamentally,
Speaker 1: the moral distinction between those animals is non existent. Pigs
Speaker 1: and dogs are very similar in their intelligence, in their sociability,
Speaker 1: in all these different ways. But because we see them
Speaker 1: as that species, they look the way they do. That's
Speaker 1: why we harm them because of their view, you know,
Speaker 1: their appearance, and that's what species m is. It's kind
Speaker 1: of addressing that we're arbitrarily harming this being, this individual
Speaker 1: because of the way they look, because of how they
Speaker 1: were born, because of the species the body they were
Speaker 1: born into. So anyway, we have these cultures and traditions
Speaker 1: that are ingrained for our history for hundreds, sometimes thousands
Speaker 1: of years, and we don't ever think about them critically,
Speaker 1: because why would we. Our peers do it. Our parents
Speaker 1: engage in this, our society is engage in this. It's legal.
Speaker 1: But then does legality equal morality? Again, history shows us
Speaker 1: that it shouldn't be that case, and it clearly isn't.
Speaker 1: So when we start to think a little bit more
Speaker 1: deeply about each of these individual arguments that we use,
Speaker 1: we start to realize that actually they don't really justify
Speaker 1: at all what we do to these animals, and that
Speaker 1: cultures and traditions should be challenged because we do look
Speaker 1: across the world and we see what happens to dogs
Speaker 1: in Asia, for example. It's a you know, a classic example,
Speaker 1: and we signed petitions demanding for it to stop. You know,
Speaker 1: this is an abomination. We shouldn't be doing this to dogs.
Speaker 1: Oh but I want to eat my bacon sandwich. Oh
Speaker 1: but I want my fried chicken burger. Which is what
Speaker 1: the person I used to be. But if we think
Speaker 1: we'll actually outside of the culture that we're raised in,
Speaker 1: outside of the fact that we viewed dogs as companions
Speaker 1: and pigs as and chickens as food, what really is
Speaker 1: the difference other than that arbitrary classification. Because you put
Speaker 1: a dog in a farm in a slaughterhouse, and you
Speaker 1: put a pig in a farm in a slaughterhouse, and
Speaker 1: he put a cow in a farm and then in
Speaker 1: a slaughterhouse. They experienced each of those individual actions identically
Speaker 1: to the individual in those environments. There is no difference
Speaker 1: to the difference to the experience that they're enduring. Yeah,
Speaker 1: The only difference is our perception. So we view them
Speaker 1: as different. But when we break away that perception and
Speaker 1: we view them not as being as different in their
Speaker 1: own in their own rights, but similar in the ways
Speaker 1: that matter, all of a sudden we recognize if it's
Speaker 1: wrong for this animal, whethern it must be wrong for
Speaker 1: this animal, and it must be wrong for that animal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that's what we need to do more,
Speaker 1: is to challenge those deeply ingrained and normalized behaviors, the
Speaker 1: ones that we don't even think about. The unconscious ones
Speaker 1: AND's And that's really where it comes up from me,
Speaker 1: Like you know I again, and I love what you
Speaker 1: just said there too. It's like I grew up eating me,
Speaker 1: so I very clearly understand at that time when I me,
Speaker 1: I had no idea what the word vegetarian even was.
Speaker 1: To some degree, I didn't know what veganism was for sure,
Speaker 1: and I didn't know about any other diet that existed
Speaker 1: apart from what I a And so now when I
Speaker 1: look at that, I recognize that. And this is why
Speaker 1: I'm hoping this podcast is going to help a lot
Speaker 1: of people, because you're so brilliant at educating, and I
Speaker 1: think you do that wonderfully, and this education is what's missing.
Speaker 1: It's not that people are bad people. I don't judge
Speaker 1: anyone who eats meat because I beat myself, so I
Speaker 1: understand how easy it is to be in that space
Speaker 1: where you are making these distinctions. And what I love
Speaker 1: about the way you just broke that down is because
Speaker 1: you're spot on that throughout history, we've done that to
Speaker 1: humans that look different from us, that have a different
Speaker 1: hair color than us, Like we've done that, Like you
Speaker 1: said that legality and morality don't go hand in hand
Speaker 1: because we've had to upgrade legality to achieve real morality.
Speaker 1: It's been a constant upgrade and we're still getting there.
Speaker 1: So that I really find fascinating because what we're doing
Speaker 1: to animals right now is what we've done to humans
Speaker 1: throughout history. And yes, we may have at least eternally
Speaker 1: stopped doing it to humans or in organized ways, but
Speaker 1: we are currently still doing it in very organized institutional
Speaker 1: ways to animals. Yeah, I mean what you said right
Speaker 1: at the beginning of that is really important. You know,
Speaker 1: good people can engage in things that are bad. We all,
Speaker 1: we all do, you know, we all do. Because we
Speaker 1: do live in an inherently imperfect world. By the mere
Speaker 1: fact that we have to do things to survive. We
Speaker 1: have to eat, we have to drink. There is going
Speaker 1: to be things that happen on this planet that a
Speaker 1: negative for some people on this planet. And by people
Speaker 1: I mean I can also mean animals, you know, the
Speaker 1: extraction of resources from nature, things like that. So we
Speaker 1: do live an inherently imperfect world. And unfortunately we're never
Speaker 1: gonna if well, i'd like to think we could, but realistically,
Speaker 1: we're never going to achieve a perfect utopia, you know,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean the aspiration shouldn't be to get
Speaker 1: as close as we possibly can. So the important thing
Speaker 1: to recognize is, yeah, it's not about saying this one's
Speaker 1: bad because they engage in bad things. It's not as
Speaker 1: easy as that. The world isn't as black and white
Speaker 1: as we sometimes like to think it is. It's actually
Speaker 1: a lot more nuanced and complicated, and we all in
Speaker 1: our own ways, can engage in industries that are bad.
Speaker 1: And what we do to animals is just objectively bad
Speaker 1: in every sense of the words. But good people can
Speaker 1: engage in that because of these cultural structures, these societal barriers.
Speaker 1: And the third section of the book is all about that,
Speaker 1: you know. The first section of the book is dealing
Speaker 1: with the moral aspect. It's talking about what we do
Speaker 1: to animals, it's talking about the history of what we
Speaker 1: do to animals, is talking about the ethical implications, and
Speaker 1: it's trying to hopefully challenge us to think about our
Speaker 1: own morality. The second section of the book then talks
Speaker 1: about the environment. It talks about you know, pandemics and
Speaker 1: infectious disease, something that is heavily linked to factory farming
Speaker 1: and video you made about that that was brilliant. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah, it's we don't really realize, but buying
Speaker 1: a chicken breast is one of the most dangerous things
Speaker 1: that we can do in terms of creating a new pandemic,
Speaker 1: you know, same with bacon. So it's about looking at
Speaker 1: that and then also chronic health, so looking at the
Speaker 1: heart disease, you know, certain forms of cancers, looking at
Speaker 1: how it impacts us as individuals as well. But then
Speaker 1: the third section was really important to me because I
Speaker 1: wanted to give people the reasons to be vegan, but
Speaker 1: I also then wanted to explain why it is that
Speaker 1: these systems exist. And to try and almost diffuse the
Speaker 1: idea of judgment and feeling bad is to say, look,
Speaker 1: this is all objectively wrong, but you're not a bad
Speaker 1: person if you've engaged in this up until this point,
Speaker 1: because there are all these boundaries, there are all these
Speaker 1: barriers that are these psychological, social, and cultural things. So
Speaker 1: it's about helping people understand the mechanisms behind why we
Speaker 1: do what we do, because that's almost as important as
Speaker 1: understanding what we do why we do it, because it's
Speaker 1: through understanding the why that we can challenge it and
Speaker 1: go right, Okay, when I'm in a supermarket and I
Speaker 1: see that piece of steak, I can think about what
Speaker 1: happens to the animal. I know how that impacts the environment.
Speaker 1: I know how that impacts my health. But now I
Speaker 1: understand that psychological thing that makes me want to pick
Speaker 1: it up. I know how I've got myself into this
Speaker 1: state where I know I'm desiring this, where I'm normalizing this,
Speaker 1: and I can challenge my own preconceptions of why I
Speaker 1: do what I do as well. So trying to build
Speaker 1: that up for people, I think is really important because
Speaker 1: you're right, and then to kind of go back to
Speaker 1: what you said right at the end. Unfortunately, human history
Speaker 1: has never been without its significant problems. We've never reached
Speaker 1: a point and we're certainly not there yet where we
Speaker 1: can sit down and relax and go, oh wow, we've
Speaker 1: we've overcome every adversity on this planet. When we're not
Speaker 1: even close to that. When when we think about the
Speaker 1: history of our species, especially you know, in the past
Speaker 1: few hundred years, this work is only just beginning to
Speaker 1: have a humans as well, it's only just beginning. But
Speaker 1: our intelligence can sometimes cloud our imperfections. You know, we
Speaker 1: are so intelligent and we're capable of doing so much.
Speaker 1: And what the world could look like if we if
Speaker 1: we just came together and sat and empathized and fought
Speaker 1: deeply about these issues and got through some of these
Speaker 1: kind of more kind of primal aspects that we haven't
Speaker 1: quite evolved out of yet, we could achieve such a
Speaker 1: wonderful thing, and we could create such a great world.
Speaker 1: But unfortunately we're nowhere near that yet. And what we
Speaker 1: do to animals is just becoming part of the conversation.
Speaker 1: And I'm very grateful that it's now part of the conversation,
Speaker 1: but it's just happening now, and we've been doing this
Speaker 1: for hundreds thousands of years to them. And when we
Speaker 1: look at the justifications, when we look at the view,
Speaker 1: when we look at the reaction that people have to
Speaker 1: those who say that they want to defend their bodies
Speaker 1: and rights of animals, we can see a lot of
Speaker 1: parallels that automatic dismissal. No, they're different, they're not like us.
Speaker 1: We don't need to do that. Society has been built
Speaker 1: in this way. It's legal, you know, we don't think
Speaker 1: about it. All of these things that have perpetuated oppression
Speaker 1: to humans are now being seen to perpetuating oppression to animals,
Speaker 1: and I'm grateful that we're starting to challenge it. But
Speaker 1: it's important that we don't ever think and get complacent
Speaker 1: in our morality because we're always going to be able
Speaker 1: to improve a little bit more, and what we do
Speaker 1: to animals is now part of that improvement. It's part
Speaker 1: of that conversation to say, actually, we've achieved a lot,
Speaker 1: but we've got a long way to go, and our
Speaker 1: relationship with those who are we more vulnerable than us
Speaker 1: will define how far we can come in the future. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well said absolutely. And one of the things you mentioned
Speaker 1: there that I think is the healthiest way, and as
Speaker 1: i said from the start of the interview, I've been
Speaker 1: doing my own way, is is that reflection when you're
Speaker 1: now at the supermarket or the grocery store or wherever
Speaker 1: you are and you're having to have that dialogue and
Speaker 1: that internal conversation with yourself. Usually it gets trumped by
Speaker 1: things like, but veganism is really expensive, and vegan food
Speaker 1: is really pricey. And when we think about poorer countries,
Speaker 1: or poorer families or poorer communities that need to shift.
Speaker 1: You can go to McDonald's and get a happy meal
Speaker 1: for a dollar, or get like burger fries and coke
Speaker 1: for like, I don't know, like a dollar, fifty or
Speaker 1: whatever it is. And then you start thinking about, oh,
Speaker 1: but salad's like fifteen dollars or even if if I
Speaker 1: buy it, I'm saying, if I make it, then sure
Speaker 1: it's cheaper. But what have you looked at when you're
Speaker 1: thinking about people saying, well, veganism is expensive. It's expensive
Speaker 1: to eat healthy and to eat to support animals. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's important to stay and maybe I should
Speaker 1: have done earlier that there are nuances to everything. There
Speaker 1: are people in this world, obviously, globally speaking, there are
Speaker 1: you know, there are many people in this world don't
Speaker 1: have the accessibility that we have, especially you and I,
Speaker 1: you know, recording this in Los Angeles where it's very
Speaker 1: easy for us. There are obviously, when we speak globally,
Speaker 1: there are people that don't have the accessibility, the affordability,
Speaker 1: the availability and the option to make the choice that
Speaker 1: we can make. And that's absolutely fine to recognize. And
Speaker 1: then even in the culture and society where we are
Speaker 1: we're in the US, obviously there's huge problems with economic
Speaker 1: disparity here as there are in most places around the world,
Speaker 1: and also availability and abundance, and again we recognize that
Speaker 1: they're in nuances to what people can achieve within their
Speaker 1: own life. Now there's a study that was released, but
Speaker 1: it was it was just published, I think yesterday, it's
Speaker 1: been reported on today, the day that we're filming, that is,
Speaker 1: and it was looking at the expense of plant based foods.
Speaker 1: And ultimately, if you're go into a whole foods and
Speaker 1: you're buying like beyond burgers, beyond sausages, impossible, that kind
Speaker 1: of thing, that's going to be more expensive. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, if you stick to whole foods and
Speaker 1: those are the healthier foods, you know, the whole grains,
Speaker 1: the beings, whole plant foods exactly, so minimally processed plant
Speaker 1: foods exactly. So you know, things like the whole grains, legumes, beans, chickpeas,
Speaker 1: seasonal vegetables and fruits, you can actually save money. You know,
Speaker 1: normally when you go in to supermarket, the most expensive
Speaker 1: things you can buy a steak, cheese often and like
Speaker 1: salmon filets, so you can actually save money. The study
Speaker 1: was saying you could say about thirty percent on your
Speaker 1: normal budget by switching to these whole plant foods, which
Speaker 1: are the healthier ones as well, thankfully, which is a
Speaker 1: good thing. But not everyone has that option. Everyone has
Speaker 1: the accessibility. So I think that that gives us those
Speaker 1: who do even more responsibility, even more of an obligation
Speaker 1: to make those changes, because the only way that we
Speaker 1: can challenge the disparity in people's ability to access certain
Speaker 1: foods is by fundamentally challenging the food system itself. If
Speaker 1: we keep buying the same foods and perpetuating the same
Speaker 1: systems with our purchases, we're not asking for change. Now.
Speaker 1: The food industry is propped up by things like subsidies
Speaker 1: from the government, which drive down the prices of foods.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a reason you can go to McDonald's
Speaker 1: and get a chicken burger for a couple of dollars,
Speaker 1: but if you want a punet of blueberry is going
Speaker 1: to set you back, you know, three or four or
Speaker 1: five dollars, right, And that's because of the way that
Speaker 1: the government subsidizes. It subsidizes these foods. If you look
Speaker 1: at the cost of raising animals, of producing feed for animals,
Speaker 1: of the antibiotics used for animals, you know of the
Speaker 1: equipment of the the land everything, and then you look
Speaker 1: at the environmental cost, the cleanup costs, the health costs
Speaker 1: for healthcare for people who end up with health disease
Speaker 1: as a consequence. The price these products is absolutely massive.
Speaker 1: It's just hidden costs that we don't think about. But
Speaker 1: we need to challenge this. And the only way we
Speaker 1: can challenge that is by making choices and changes in
Speaker 1: our own individual life. So for those of us who
Speaker 1: have the power, the capacity, the privilege, let's use that word,
Speaker 1: because that's what it is, the privilege to be able
Speaker 1: to make these choices, I think we're even more obliged
Speaker 1: to do so for those people in the future who
Speaker 1: would like to but maybe don't have the capacity to now,
Speaker 1: who aren't given the luxury of being able to think
Speaker 1: critically because you know, they've got a family to feed,
Speaker 1: they're working two jobs, there's no supermarket close by, there's
Speaker 1: only a McDonald's, a tackle bell, and they need to
Speaker 1: feed their family. What are you going to do as
Speaker 1: a parent? What we know and that's exactly what happens.
Speaker 1: So if we want to help people in situations of
Speaker 1: economic disparity where the abundance isn't there, then we need
Speaker 1: to challenge the system. The first way to do that
Speaker 1: is to change our behaviors and then vote with our
Speaker 1: dollar and then hopefully influence the supply and demand system.
Speaker 1: And then through that we can start to campaign to
Speaker 1: our governments and say, look, part of the pun but
Speaker 1: there's an appetite for change here, you know. And then
Speaker 1: we can try to create a more equal agricultural food system.
Speaker 1: But it starts right now, at least with that individual
Speaker 1: making that choice, and then you know, a mass collective
Speaker 1: individuals coming together. You know, one thing people often say
Speaker 1: to me, as they say, ed know, maybe I agree
Speaker 1: with you, but me not buying that cheese in the
Speaker 1: supermarket isn't going to change the world, and it's not.
Speaker 1: But anything that ever has changed the world has changed
Speaker 1: the world because of a mass group of individuals. Anything
Speaker 1: positive comes from the individual realizing and wanting to be
Speaker 1: an active part in that change. And we all have
Speaker 1: the power to be an individual within that mass collective
Speaker 1: movement that creates positive different that creates positive difference. And
Speaker 1: I want everyone to know who is listening right now,
Speaker 1: that when you get the book This is Vegan Propaganda.
Speaker 1: It talks about everything from the environmental impacts through to
Speaker 1: the meat paradox, to how to do this in a
Speaker 1: healthy unhealthy alternatives that exist in the world. I think
Speaker 1: what's fascinating is that this book dives so deeply into
Speaker 1: so much more than what we've discussed today. It's the
Speaker 1: environmental impacts, it's the impact of what is a healthy
Speaker 1: and unhealthy way of doing this. You're asking the questions
Speaker 1: that are important to us. Can pour a country shift
Speaker 1: in this direction. And so the reason why I want
Speaker 1: everyone to go and grab the book This is Vegan Propaganda,
Speaker 1: is because I want us to just be educated and
Speaker 1: learn and be informed so that we can make informed decisions.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's how what we saw happen
Speaker 1: in the world over the last few years is we
Speaker 1: all had a very uniquely similar experience as a species.
Speaker 1: We started to recognize that when we all thought in
Speaker 1: a certain direction, we can make change. But the thought
Speaker 1: had to start with education. Yeah, like all, the thing
Speaker 1: has to start with education. And I think the challenge
Speaker 1: with veganism for a very very long time as being
Speaker 1: that there has been no education around it. It's been
Speaker 1: a point of view. It's been a debate, it's been
Speaker 1: an argument, it's been a forced, potentially or fear based
Speaker 1: language and education, whereas now it's just like, well, this
Speaker 1: is just what's happening. Yeah, and Ed, I just appreciate
Speaker 1: you so much for doing what you're doing, and I
Speaker 1: can't wait to see you continue to do it in
Speaker 1: more beautiful, incredible ways. I can't wait for the documentary
Speaker 1: when that happens. But for everyone who's been listening right now,
Speaker 1: highly recommend go and follow earthling Ed on Instagram to
Speaker 1: keep up today and on YouTube as well, and of
Speaker 1: course go and grab the book. This is vegan propaganda.
Speaker 1: I could talk to Ed for hours, but I have
Speaker 1: to unfortunately start. But Ed, I'm going to ask you
Speaker 1: what we always end every interview with, which is called
Speaker 1: the final five, and you will, I know, put your
Speaker 1: spin on all of these. So the first question is
Speaker 1: what is the best vegan or plant based advice that
Speaker 1: you've ever received? Research? Research, research, research, because it's free
Speaker 1: research that we can become yet informed consumers like you say,
Speaker 1: and Aristotle the philosopher once said, the roots of education
Speaker 1: are bitter, but the fruit is sweet, And I think
Speaker 1: that's so profound because it isn't comfortable to learn about
Speaker 1: these issues, and a lot of what we discussed can
Speaker 1: be challenging. But the prize at the end of it
Speaker 1: is consistency in our values and the sense of being
Speaker 1: a part of something positive. So yeah, the roots of
Speaker 1: education a bitter, but the fruit is sweet. That's a
Speaker 1: great answer, all right. What is the worst vegan advice
Speaker 1: you've ever seen? The worst vegan advice? Oh well, that's
Speaker 1: a good question. The worst vegan advice given. I think
Speaker 1: it comes down to advocacy. People have a range of
Speaker 1: different views about how to advocate for issues, like we've
Speaker 1: spoken about a couple of times, and some people have
Speaker 1: views about how to do it that are different to
Speaker 1: my views. And for me, I practice what I preach
Speaker 1: in the sense of I try and come across in
Speaker 1: the way that I think others should. And so people
Speaker 1: disagree with that, and so their advice to me has
Speaker 1: been contradicting what I think. So to me, that hasn't
Speaker 1: always been the best advice. That's good, all right. If
Speaker 1: you could make one law in the world that everyone
Speaker 1: had to follow, what would it be? Oh? Wow? I
Speaker 1: mean the dogmatic side of me says be vegan obviously,
Speaker 1: and obviously I mean if there was one law in
Speaker 1: the world, Yeah, that's what i'd want. But I appreciate
Speaker 1: that sounds so dogmatic, doesn't it. But I'd have to
Speaker 1: say that I don't know, so yeah, expecting it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it would be surprising after all this if
Speaker 1: you came up with totally random maybe maybe to soften it.
Speaker 1: Be nice to animals, yeah, yeah, look after them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and redefine the word humane. Yes, for ourselves when it
Speaker 1: comes to animals. All right. Fourth question, what is the
Speaker 1: biggest lesson you've learned in the past twelve months. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in the past twelve months, I think Again it comes
Speaker 1: down to the idea of good people can do bad things.
Speaker 1: It's something I've been learning a lot. But I think
Speaker 1: that especially in the past couple of years, but even
Speaker 1: in the past twelve months, I've really enjoyed the company
Speaker 1: of humans. That sounds strange, maybe, but the pandemic has
Speaker 1: disconnected us a lot from one another. And I used
Speaker 1: to do this, you know, have conversations and you know,
Speaker 1: meet people a lot before the pandemic, as we all did, right,
Speaker 1: And in the past twelve months, as I've slow started
Speaker 1: to be able to integrate back into some of these
Speaker 1: these realms of conversation. It's made me realize how much
Speaker 1: I enjoy humans, even humans that are doing the thing
Speaker 1: that I'm trying to stop. What I like about having
Speaker 1: debates with people is it makes me realize how connected
Speaker 1: we all are, how we all think very similarly at times,
Speaker 1: you know, about these issues. How we're not that different
Speaker 1: from one another. Doesn't matter if I go to a
Speaker 1: university here, or a farm here, or you know, this
Speaker 1: country or wherever we so we think intrinsically very similar.
Speaker 1: And that's something that I've learned, especially as we come out,
Speaker 1: you know, we're still in the pandemic, but as we
Speaker 1: started to see the light at the end of the
Speaker 1: tunnel and I've been able to reintegrate back into the
Speaker 1: work that I used to do. Just how much humans
Speaker 1: can be good, you know. And I think that's a
Speaker 1: really powerful thing for me to keep reminding myself. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, some of my best friends are not vegan,
Speaker 1: some of my closest friends in my family, and and
Speaker 1: just so many people I love. And I think that
Speaker 1: that's such a good point. And you know, when we're
Speaker 1: sitting down to do this. I know this comes from
Speaker 1: both of our hearts, Like I'm doing this to out
Speaker 1: of a compassion and education, Like there's no part of
Speaker 1: me that judges anyone for doing something that I just
Speaker 1: did a few years ago, and that lack of judgment
Speaker 1: is what allows all of us to go. And by
Speaker 1: the way, I also think it's important to stay. And
Speaker 1: I haven't felt this from a moment of meeting you.
Speaker 1: I mean when I when I've seen your videos, I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: Ed is Ed is tough in a good way. And
Speaker 1: I met you today, You're the sweetest human ever. I'm like, Wow,
Speaker 1: this guy's Like I was like, well, it's so nice.
Speaker 1: Not that I expected you would be not nice. You
Speaker 1: Like I was like, wow, Ed is just so personal
Speaker 1: and just so I don't know what it is. You
Speaker 1: have a real sweetness and softness and kindness about you
Speaker 1: in person that people wouldn't get to see always through
Speaker 1: a debate or a screen. And I really feel that
Speaker 1: the idea that this is all coming from a place
Speaker 1: of just compassion, love, kindness, and non judgment. And also
Speaker 1: there's we shouldn't feel have an ego. This is how
Speaker 1: we were trained as monks that just because you care
Speaker 1: for animals. That's actually the most basic human quality, Like
Speaker 1: you can't have an ego about that. Either. You can't
Speaker 1: think you're better because you're vegan, because the whole point
Speaker 1: is that you should be honoring these animals anyway. And
Speaker 1: so I think there's there's both ends of the coin
Speaker 1: of the ego in how we present veganism to others,
Speaker 1: but also the ego we feel internally because we think
Speaker 1: we're better than others, And I think both of those
Speaker 1: have to be removed. Yeah, fifth and final question is
Speaker 1: what is anything that I haven't asked you but you
Speaker 1: really want to say because you feel that it's on
Speaker 1: your heart and on your mind and needs to be shared.
Speaker 1: I think accountability. It's really important to me that I
Speaker 1: come across in a way that seems empathetic to people.
Speaker 1: And a lot of what that I do is trying
Speaker 1: to rationalize why people do what they do so that I,
Speaker 1: you know, so it's easy to empathize with them. You know,
Speaker 1: you can understand the processes of why people do what
Speaker 1: they do. But accountability is also really important. And I
Speaker 1: was put in a situation from my partner where I
Speaker 1: was forced to hold myself accountable to the decisions that
Speaker 1: I was making. And so whilst it's really important that
Speaker 1: we you know, are very reflective, we also have to
Speaker 1: be accountable for our decisions, you know. And again this
Speaker 1: relates directly to your work as well. About you know,
Speaker 1: it's all well and good understanding what we should do,
Speaker 1: but if we want to see those positive benefits in
Speaker 1: our own life and we want to hit the targets
Speaker 1: that we want and improve ourselves in the way that
Speaker 1: we want to improve ourselves, we have to be accountable
Speaker 1: to ourselves. And when we view veganism from the position
Speaker 1: of the individual, who's who's suffering. When we think about
Speaker 1: the animal and we view veganism, obviously there's so many
Speaker 1: benefits to ourselves and where as in an individual making
Speaker 1: that change. But when we view veganism from the perspective
Speaker 1: of the person who suffers as a consequence of the
Speaker 1: decision that we make when it comes to buying animal products,
Speaker 1: that's what that accountability has to come in to say,
Speaker 1: I understand why I should do it, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: going to research how to do it sustainably and healthfully.
Speaker 1: And then the final piece of the puzzle is to
Speaker 1: be accountable to ourselves, to our own morals, but accountable
Speaker 1: to them. They can't talk to us, they can't communicate,
Speaker 1: you know, a chicken can't say please, don't do this,
Speaker 1: but if they could, they would, they would, you know,
Speaker 1: and they vocalize it in ways that we recognize, you know,
Speaker 1: for the cries and the screams and the actions and
Speaker 1: the body movements, but we don't see it. So it's
Speaker 1: hard to be accountable to something that we don't see,
Speaker 1: that's out of sight and out of mind. So connect
Speaker 1: with it, you know, think deeply about these issues, and
Speaker 1: then accountability on our behalf to say, I need to
Speaker 1: push myself in ways that might seem a little bit inconvenient,
Speaker 1: that might not be that comfortable luck you know, that
Speaker 1: might lead a little bit you know, daunting at the beginning.
Speaker 1: But the benefit of doing that isn't just the benefit
Speaker 1: to ourselves, it's to them. And they don't have a choice.
Speaker 1: We have the choice the power to dictate what they
Speaker 1: have to go through or ultimately what they don't have
Speaker 1: to go through. Yeah, you know what the most beautiful
Speaker 1: thing about this interview has being that we've been talking
Speaker 1: about something that can be very divisive. It can be
Speaker 1: quite difficult. But all I'm feeling is a sense of
Speaker 1: like more compassion in my heart, like overall, like I'm
Speaker 1: walking away from this interview going I actually need to
Speaker 1: be more compassionate with everyone, like you know, with animals
Speaker 1: of course, but the way you've been showing this with
Speaker 1: me at least, I just want people to know who
Speaker 1: are listening that's sitting across from the table from Ed.
Speaker 1: All I'm feeling is the aura and energy of compassion, love, kindness,
Speaker 1: and empathy is what I'm feeling from your heart and voice,
Speaker 1: And so anyone who's not been in the room with
Speaker 1: me and just hearing a conversation without the emotion that
Speaker 1: you feel when you're with someone, I just want everyone
Speaker 1: who's listening or watching to know that. And so I'm
Speaker 1: walking away wanting to be more of all of that
Speaker 1: in my life as a whole, definitely. And if that's
Speaker 1: all you take away from this episode, then I hope
Speaker 1: that that's the beginning of your journey to loving all
Speaker 1: animals and life. So thank you, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us. Everyone, I want to make sure that
Speaker 1: you tag me and Ed on Instagram, on Twitter, or
Speaker 1: on whatever platform you're using. So that we can see
Speaker 1: what you're taking away. Maybe you're going to try going vegan,
Speaker 1: maybe you're going to try change one day in your life.
Speaker 1: Whatever you're going to do from this podcast, I want
Speaker 1: you to let me and Ed know because we want
Speaker 1: to see how these words, how what Ed is shared.
Speaker 1: Of course his book, this is vegan propaganda. For those
Speaker 1: of you that are going to go and grab a
Speaker 1: cop You're going to have all the education and insight
Speaker 1: at your fingertips. Please do tag us. I love seeing
Speaker 1: what resonates and connects with you. This has been a
Speaker 1: very special episode in that we've been sharing something that
Speaker 1: I truly believe could be life changing. Is out there,
Speaker 1: is available as accessible, and I hope that some of
Speaker 1: you are going to give it a go. So thank
Speaker 1: you for joining in. Big thank you to Ed. Go
Speaker 1: and follow earthling Ed on Instagram and YouTube and all
Speaker 1: social media platforms wherever Ed is, and go and grab
Speaker 1: a copy of the book. This is vegan propaganda. So
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Thank you appreciate it.