1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: Our intelligence can sometimes cloud our imperfections. You know, we 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: are so intelligent and we're capable of doing so much. 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: And what the world could look like if we just 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: came together and sat and empathized and fought deeply about 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: these issues and and got through some of these kind 6 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: of more kind of primal aspects that we haven't quite 7 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: evolved out of yet. We could achieve such a wonderful thing, 8 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: or we could create such a great world, but unfortunately 9 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: were nowhere near that yet. Hey, everyone, welcome back to 10 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: on Purpose. I am so grateful that you come back 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: every week to listen, learn and grow, whether you're cooking, 12 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,319 Speaker 1: whether you're walking, whether you're walking a dog. I'm so 13 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: happy that you've chosen to give me your ears, all 14 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,919 Speaker 1: your views for this time. And I couldn't be more 15 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: excited because today's guest is someone that I've been wanting 16 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: to sit down with for a long long time. We've 17 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: been connected online dming for probably about three to four 18 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: years now, and he's finally in La I hear he's 19 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: moving here, which makes me very very excited, not just 20 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: for me, but for everyone else who's going to benefit. 21 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: I'm talking about the one and only Ed winters Now. 22 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: For those of you that don't know, Ed is a 23 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: vegan educator, public speaker and content creator, widely known for 24 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: his viral debates, speeches and video essays. He has given 25 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: speeches across the world, including the University of Cambridge, EPFL, 26 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: Google NYC, and Google's Zurich. In early twenty nineteen, he 27 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: gave two TEDx talks, surpassing a total of two million 28 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: views online. You can go and check them out, and 29 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: his speech you will never look at your life in 30 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: the same way again, has thirty five million accumulative views 31 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: online and has been given to thousands of students across 32 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: the UK. Ed also has debated numerous times on live 33 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: television and radio, and has been featured on the BBC, 34 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: ITV and lad Bible. He co founded the No Catch 35 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: Coo which I can't wait to visit in twenty twenty one, 36 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: and Ethical Vegan Fish and Chip Shop Company, taking on 37 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: the traditional British fish and chip shop model. And this 38 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: is something that I'm very excited about today. I want 39 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: you to all go and get this. He wrote his 40 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: debut book, This is Vegan Propaganda and Other Lies the 41 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: Meat Industry tells you. Welcome to the show, Ed Winters, 42 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: or as I like to call him, earthling Ed Ed. 43 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for doing this. Oh my pleasure. Thanks for 44 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: having me so good to meet you. It's a delight 45 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: to be here, and I really appreciate you making time 46 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: for me. And it's the real privileged to thank you. No, 47 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: the feeling is very mutual. I've been a fan of 48 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: what you've been doing, Like I said to you, before 49 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: I came across your videos, I think probably twenty seventeen, 50 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, and i'd only started my journey in twenty 51 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: sixteen as well. Yeah, and so I remember seeing it 52 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: and under your Instagram earthling Ed, which again highly recommend 53 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: everyone goes and follows. And what I really appreciated was 54 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: this very thoughtful, conscious, intentional sharing and messaging around veganism, 55 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: around vegan diet, around an understanding of animal welfare, around 56 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: edge educating people. And up until that point, I'd only 57 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: ever seen people attack people, or i'd seen people try 58 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: and scare people, or i'd seen people try and cause fear. 59 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying any of those things are bad 60 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: or wrong or shouldn't be done. Everyone's allowed to communicate 61 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: in the way that they feel is best. But I 62 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: really connected to your way of giving a language to 63 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: the work that you do. And so my wife and 64 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: I are big fans. She's dying to meet you. And 65 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: now that you're releasing a book as well, which you 66 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: kindly sent to me, so I've had the fortune of 67 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: seeing a bit of it. What I want to start 68 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: with is I want to hear about your story of 69 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: how you got to this point, because I think what 70 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: we're used to seeing as you debating you being a 71 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: very strong minded vegan, but I want to hear how 72 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: you got there. So can you tell us where your 73 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: journey started by telling us where you grew up, what 74 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: you ate for dinner every day, what your life was like. Yeah. So, 75 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: like most people, I grew up in a family that 76 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: hadn't really even heard of veganism. So I was raised 77 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: and we used to laugh about people who are vegetarian. 78 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: We used to think it was kind of a bit 79 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: of a joke that people wouldn't want to eat meat, 80 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: because you know, meat delicious and everyone eats meat, so 81 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: why wouldn't you? And I remember we used to have 82 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: this joke around the family dinner table, and it was 83 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: a very bad joke. A very bad joke and it's cringey. 84 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: But we used to sit around the dinner table or 85 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: be eating, you know, a beef cass role, be eating sausages, chicken, breast, 86 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: whatever it might be, and someone would say something like, 87 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: what's the best thing about having a vegetarian around for dinner? 88 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: And then the other person would go, more meat for 89 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: all of us, right, and yeah, exactly. It's just like 90 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: so cringe, But that's the kind of mindset we had. 91 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: And it wasn't that we were against people being vegetarian. 92 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: We just thought it was a strange thing. So I 93 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: was raised in a very much meat dominated household. We 94 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: had meat every single day. I had cheese most days, eggs, 95 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: and I really liked it as well. And this kind 96 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: of continue for out most of my life until I 97 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: came to university and all of a sudden, I was 98 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: with a group of people who are vegetarians and it 99 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: became very normalized for me, and I started to think 100 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: about my relationship with animals. Where did you go to university? 101 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: At University of Westminster. So I was born in a 102 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: place called York, which is northern England, and then I 103 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: moved to London to study When I was when I 104 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: was eighteen. So I got to university kind of outside 105 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: of that family dynamics, starting to think a little bit 106 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: more independently, started to have some vegetarian friends, and start 107 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: to think about my relationship with animals a little bit more. 108 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: I always considered myself to be, you know, someone who 109 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: cared about animals. I mean, we all do, because intrinsically 110 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: we have this very deep compassionate side to us which 111 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: sees the other life forms that we share this planet 112 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: with as being I think, you know, very much, kind 113 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: of like a sacred relationship. You know, these are beings 114 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: who we share so much with, and you know, every 115 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: action that we partake in influences them in the way 116 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 1: that they live in the wildlife, indeed in our homes 117 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: with the pets that we have. So I started to 118 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: think a little bit more deeply. And then in May 119 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, I was reading the BBC and I came 120 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: across this story and it really changed my life forever. 121 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: The story is about this truck carrying around six and 122 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 1: a half thousand chickens, and the truck had crashed was 123 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: going to a slaughterhouse near the city of Manchester, which 124 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: is again in northern England. And I was reading this 125 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: story and something made me click on this story to 126 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: begin with. And I was reading this story and I 127 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: was thinking, this is a terrible thing. The journalist was 128 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: saying that hundreds of the birds you know, had died 129 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: from the crash, hundreds more were suffering. That would suffering. 130 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: Became really important to me because I recognized that the 131 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: animals who you know, I consumed had the capacity to suffer. 132 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: It's a really strange thing to recognize because it's obvious. 133 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: We all know that cows, you know, pigs, chickens, lambs, 134 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: even the marine life that we consume, we know that 135 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: they suffer. But I had never really thought about it consciously. 136 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: But the problem was in my fridge was a KFC 137 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: and I was a huge KFC fan back when I 138 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: was younger. I used to go to my local KFC outlets, 139 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of times a week. It was 140 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: something that was very important to my identity. I was 141 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: proud of my KFC consumption. I identified as being someone 142 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: who who did this. It was almost like this bi 143 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: weekly pilgrimage almost, you know. It really formed a huge 144 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: part of my life. My afriend and I we would 145 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: always get KFC watch a film. It was part of 146 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: our relationship. But I had KFC in my fridge at 147 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: that time where I was reading this story, and I 148 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: remember just thinking about it and thinking, well, am I 149 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: being hypocritical here, you know, and my actions not in 150 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: alignment with my values? Am I in a bit of 151 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: a state of cognitive distance where I say one thing, 152 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: you know, I care about animals, I'm against animal suffering. 153 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: Yet for this recognition of what these chickens are enduring 154 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: and the realization that they're going to a slaughter house, 155 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: you know, where they were meant to end up is 156 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: not much better really potentially even worse than where they 157 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: were on the side of the road. Of course, So 158 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: I went vegetarian at that point because I kind of 159 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: faced this fork in the road and it was you know, 160 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: maybe I could bury my head in the sand and 161 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: just kind of get on with it, you know, pretend 162 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: that I'm not uncomfortable about this, or I can accept 163 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: that there's something here that has compelled me to want 164 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: to make a change in my life. So I went vegetarian, 165 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: and then eight months later I became vegan. And now 166 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: I went vegan because of a documentary called earth Links. 167 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: But really, my girlfriend pushed me to do it. Now, 168 00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: I'm a little bit, you know, a little bit cynical 169 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: at times, I can be a little bit i don't 170 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: know the word, is a little bit stoic, you know, 171 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: and maybe sometimes I don't want to accept change in 172 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: my life. But she's quite the opposite. She's very open 173 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: minded to things, you know, thankfully speaking. So she says, ed, 174 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: you know, we should watch this documentary called Earthlings. You know, 175 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: it's about why we should be vegan. And I said 176 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: veganism really me, no, no, no, Vegetarian's fine. I can 177 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: do that, but veganism is a bit extreme. You know. 178 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: These people, you know, they're they're very forceful, they're a 179 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: bit militant, they're very preachy. And I don't want to 180 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: be one of those vegans. And she said no, she 181 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: used to watch it. So I put it off and 182 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: put it off and put it off. And then one 183 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: morning we woke up and you know, I'm a little 184 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: bit lazy on the mornings. It takes me a little bit, 185 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: a little bit of a while to get out of bed. 186 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: And my girlfriend knows this very well, of course, so 187 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: she took advantage of it. She gets the laptop, she 188 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: puts the documentary on, and she says, look, ed, you 189 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: can get out of bed, or you can stay and 190 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: watch the documentary. I don't know that's a hard bargain 191 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: that so I watched it nineteen minutes later. I was, 192 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 1: you know, kind of shell shocked. Really. The documentary is 193 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: not pleasant. It isn't it's it's it's objective about what 194 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: happens to animals. It's all based in the US, but 195 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: it's objective about what happens to animals and farms and 196 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: slaughter houses and other places as well where we do 197 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: the things we do to them sadly. And I had 198 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: a little pet hamster at the time called Rupert's, and 199 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: he was just the most adorable hamster ever. I'd never 200 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: had pets growing up, really, so Rupert was kind of 201 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: the first animalized spent any considerable time with. And he 202 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: was just this adorable little little little being. And he 203 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: loved broccoli so much. He just loved broccoli. Any time 204 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,079 Speaker 1: you givehi broccoli would be so happy. But he never 205 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: liked kale. You know, we didn't like kale, in which 206 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: I can kind of relate to, to be fair. But 207 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: he loved broccoli and didn't like kale. So I recognize 208 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: he had likes and dislikes. So after the film had finished, 209 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: and I was, you know, I was very upset, very shakum. 210 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: I got Rupert out and had him in my hands. 211 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: I'm lucky at him, and I give him some broccoli 212 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: because he loves broccoli, right, And I give him some brocco, 213 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: and I'm watching him eat, and he's got some little 214 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: paws and he's just so cute, and I'm thinking, wow, 215 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: we know, Rupert, this small, tiny animal, has so much 216 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: about him that I really admire his likes, his dislikes, 217 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: his personality, you know, things that make him unique. You know, 218 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: hamster's love running on wheels. Well, not rup At the hamster. 219 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: Rupert the hamster hated running on his wheel. He'd got 220 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: no exercise. It was cardiovascular health must have been dreadful, 221 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: you know. And I got my ball to run around 222 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 1: the apartment, and you know the sea fruit balls that 223 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: they can run around in, and he wouldn't use it. 224 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: He would just sit there. He just liked being around us. 225 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: He'd sit on the sofa with us. And so there 226 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: was things that made him unique. And I thought, well, 227 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: if Rupert has so much individuality about him, well what 228 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: about all the chickens and pigs and cows and even 229 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: salmon and tuna? What about all of these other animals? 230 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: And even as a vegetarian, I was abstaining from a 231 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,719 Speaker 1: huge part of the problem, but there was still all 232 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: the other aspects, the dairy, the eggs, and the you know, 233 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: the clothing, the leave of the wall, the things I 234 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: didn't really think about even as a vegetarian. I thought, 235 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: what about all these animals who go through these processes, 236 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: who were individuals with likes and dislikes, who can feel, 237 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: who can suffering and also experience pleasure and happiness as well? 238 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: You know, animals experienced you know, positive emotions, not just 239 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: negative emotions as of course we do. What makes them 240 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: different to Rupert's. And I couldn't couldn't think of a 241 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: justification for continuing. So yeah, I went vegan and that 242 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: was that. Wow. And your girlfriend at the time was 243 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: already vegan. Now, we went vegan together, but she was 244 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: making changes before I was. You know, she was thinking proactively. 245 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: She was you know, we had almond milk and soy 246 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: milk in the fridge. You know, we'd made small steps 247 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: because she had been influencing me to do so, and 248 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: she knew that if I sat down and watched this documentary, 249 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: that would be it. And I knew it as well, 250 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: which is why I turned a blind dying. And I 251 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: think that's another thing that often happens is there's something 252 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: called the Ostrich effect, which is kind of like a 253 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: cognitive bias. So basically, when we are confronted with information 254 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: that makes us feel uncomfortable, when there's the prospect of 255 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: something that might challenge us in the way that you know, 256 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: we perceived to be inconvenient, we can just turn a 257 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: blind eye to it. And I think what we do 258 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: to animals as a great example of this. I think 259 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: we've all had a moment where we've maybe seen something 260 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: shared online, or we've had a conversation with a friend 261 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: who's maybe vegan, or we've just looked at a piece 262 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: of meat on our dinner plate and just fought for 263 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: a moment, just had you know, something passed through our minds, 264 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: and in that moment, we can kind of do two things, 265 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: you know, acknowledge it or turn a blind eye. And 266 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: we often turn a blind eye because it's easier and 267 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: more comfortable to do so, and that's what I was doing. 268 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: You know, I knew, I knew what happened deep down. 269 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: I knew there's something about it that made me feel uncomfortable, 270 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: but I ignored it for so long. And she was 271 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 1: confronting that a little bit earlier than I was, and 272 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: thankfully pushed me to confront it as well, because you know, 273 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: through that confrontation of our values, we can strive to 274 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: be more in alignment with who we truly are as individuals. 275 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: And I think that's a powerful thing that I've realized 276 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: about being vegan, is it's just is pushed me to 277 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: reevaluate my place, you know, my relationship with others, how 278 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: I interact with humans as well as animals, just you know, 279 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: how my actions impact the world around me, and how 280 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: we are vessels who can create, you know, a more 281 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: positive world or a more negative world. And sometimes we 282 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: feel disempowered in life, you know, especially with some of 283 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: the geopolitical things that go on, we can feel very disempowered. 284 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: But for me, one of the greatest things about veganism 285 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: is the empowerment to know that we can make a 286 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: difference every day, you know, positive difference. And she encouraged 287 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: me to learn that early on. I love that our 288 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: journeys got some similarities to it. So when I grew 289 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: up eating meat as well and similar to you, like 290 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: going to McDonald's was like our birthday like experience, Like 291 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: I used to love going to McDonald's for my birthday. 292 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: And I remember when I was around probably around fifteen 293 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: years old, and I used to walk past the butcher's 294 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: every day on my way to school and on my 295 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: way back to back from school at a bus stop, 296 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: and I would walk past the butchers. I can see 297 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: the street where I grew up right now, on Green Lanes, 298 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: and they would hang a lot of the animals in 299 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: the window. And I never ate a chicken that looked 300 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: like that. To me. A chicken looked like this perfect 301 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: crispy round burger, right, That's what chicken look like to me. 302 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: And I ate pork sausages, but they never looked like 303 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: pigs hanging. I just ate the pork sausages that you 304 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: buy in the store. And so for me, when I 305 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: would walk past that butchers every day on the way 306 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: to school and on the way back from school, that's 307 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: when it started to hit me where I was like, 308 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: no no, No, that's the same thing. Like I couldn't 309 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: bear to look at a hanging pig, I couldn't bear 310 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 1: to look at a hanging chicken. But I would get 311 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: really excited about eating my burger and I wouldn't make 312 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: the connection when I ate the burger until that point. 313 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: And so I remember deciding that I would become vegetarian 314 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: at the time, and I lasted around three months before 315 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: I went back into McDonald's. Three months later. I was 316 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: craving it so badly for taste. And then from that 317 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: point on, I never have eaten meat since that day. 318 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: And so that was around I was fifteen, sixteen years old, 319 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: and so that's been around eighteen years now. And then 320 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: it was my wife who introduced me more to plant 321 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: based than vegan. She's been vegan for like ten years now, 322 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: and so she's been vegan for a long time, and 323 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: she's the one who trained me and helped me shift 324 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: my habits and also be a healthy vegan and not 325 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: become an unhealthy vegan and all these beautiful things that 326 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: she's thought about. And you see that, and you sit 327 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: down with students, you sit down with people from all 328 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: over the world, from all walks of life and hear there, 329 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: you debate them, you hear their answers, you hear their 330 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: options and their opportunities. I want to go back to 331 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: talking about when you made that journey and you made 332 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: that shift. Did you ever land up at the other 333 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: side of becoming the militant version that you didn't want 334 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: to be? Oh? I have at times, and I think 335 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: that's that encouraged me to hopefully become more effective as 336 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: an advocate to someone who speaks about this issue. I 337 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: remember when I had first kind of gone vegan, I 338 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: started to first kind of venture into kind of like 339 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: activism and education, you know, and I was uploading some 340 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: videos and I had this this conversation with two South 341 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: African guys in Trafalgar Square in London, and I was 342 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: asking them they know some questions about animals and they 343 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: were telling me that they hunted in South Africa and 344 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: they thought it was okay if it was humane. And 345 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: I said, what does this word humane mean because we 346 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: for this, you know, this word humane around a lot 347 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: when we talk about our treatment of animals, you know. 348 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: And they said, well, you know, we think it an 349 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: example of a humane death might be some electricity and 350 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: then you know the knife, you know, And I said, 351 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: how would you like that have happened to a family member? 352 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: And I was quite abrupt about it, and I were 353 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: really taken aback, and they said they were very unhappy 354 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: about what I'd said, and it was the manner in 355 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: which I'd said it. And I reflect a lot on 356 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: that moment, because their reaction to me showed that I'd 357 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: actually been very ineffective in what I was trying to do, 358 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: and the way that they kind of like seemed very 359 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: accosted by that comment, and the manner, the tone of 360 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: my voice, the language, my body language, which is of 361 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: course so important when we're communicating, how we'd look as 362 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: opposed to, you know, as well as how we say 363 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: things and what we say. And I reflected a lot 364 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: after that because I realized that I was fulfilling that stereotype. 365 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: No Vegans do have a stereotype, whether for better or 366 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: for worse, whether it's true or not. Some people do 367 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: fulfill that stereotype, but many vegans don't. Most vegans don't. 368 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: And I think often we build up this caricature almost 369 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: of what a vegan is because in a way it 370 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: allows us to distance ourselves from being vegan, you know, 371 00:16:58,360 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: or I don't want to be like them, which is 372 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: what I used to be like, I don't want to 373 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: be like them because they're like this, when actually it 374 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: stops us from thinking about the arguments. But I realized 375 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: in that moment I was kind of fulfilling that stereotype, 376 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: which is everything that I don't want to do and 377 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: my content. I try, mostly, you know, as much as 378 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: I can in the situations i'm in, to try and 379 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: not be that person that seems like they're taking a 380 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: position that is judgmental, is looking down on someone, and 381 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 1: is instead hopefully asking people questions in the way that 382 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: encourages them to think proactively for themselves. And so, like 383 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: you said, I try very hard to have conversations with 384 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: people from all across the spectrum. So I have conversations 385 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: with people who've never thought about these issues before, who 386 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: are just causual you meet darian egg eaters who aren't 387 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: necessarily that invested in doing so, but just do it 388 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: because they always have. But I also have conversations with 389 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: people on the other end of the spectrum, you know, farmers, 390 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: people who are very much ingrained in these systems, whose 391 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,719 Speaker 1: families farmed animals, you know, as grandparents found animals, who 392 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: are you know, as much in these cultures and communities 393 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: as we are in our own cultures and communities, and 394 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: it forms their identities. And I always try and take 395 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: that same approach of trying to understand people's viewpoints. We 396 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: live in a slightly troubling time when it comes to 397 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: the disconnection and division that exists. The US is a 398 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: great example, but it's not just to let's be honest, 399 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: and veganism can have what seems to be at times 400 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: an element of division to it. But ultimately, the way 401 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 1: that I see it is that, like everyone else in 402 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: this world, hopefully by and large, vegans are just trying 403 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: to make this world a little bit better, just trying 404 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: to reduce suffering, you know, improve the environment, improve people's health. 405 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: And I think we all share that in common. So 406 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: when I have a conversation with a farmer, who's who's 407 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: in that mindset, you know, I try and view it 408 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: from their perspective, which is, you know, they want to 409 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: see the same things I do. It's just we've split 410 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,959 Speaker 1: apart because of the way that we were raised on 411 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: how to get there, and so it's just about me 412 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: trying to show them. Well, Actually, the way that you've 413 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: been raised as well as well as creating validity in 414 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: your views, doesn't actually create authenticity in the objectivity of 415 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: your views. When I mean by that, it doesn't make 416 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: them right. So I try and see people where they are, 417 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: but encourage them to reflect, to look beyond their views, 418 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 1: to look beyond their culture, to look beyond their communities, 419 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: to look beyond their social groups and social norms, and 420 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: reflect on something larger, which is, you know, how do 421 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: we all achieve what we want to achieve, which is 422 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: hopefully a world of more cohesion, less suffering humans, animals 423 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: to everyone, And what you just said, there's beautiful, because 424 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: that's what the human capacity of the mind is for. Like, 425 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: we know that animals struggle to see beyond certain barriers. 426 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: And even then we see animals, you know, drag different 427 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: animals off the street and do these beautiful acts of kindness. 428 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: But overall, as humans, we do have the broad mindedness 429 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: and the capacity to see beyond just our territory, right right. 430 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: And so when I when I'm listening to you, I'm wondering, 431 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: because I know a lot of people who saw earth things, 432 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: who saw what were some of the others game changes. 433 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: What were the other ones that were opinion A popular one, 434 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: cowspiracy has been cospiracy that was really but yeah, So 435 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: I had a lot of friends actually who saw those 436 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: and they all did the same thing. They became vegan 437 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: straight after watching it. But then it wasn't sustainable for them. 438 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: They didn't know how to bring into their diet. Tell 439 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: me about how you made it sustainable? How did it 440 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: really work? Because it's been six years for you now 441 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: that I would say, it's a fairly long time since 442 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: you discovered this path and know about it. How have 443 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: you made it sustainable? How have you made it healthy 444 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: for yourself? Because I think the biggest thing people struggle 445 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: with that I know that have watched those documentaries is 446 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: not that they disagree, It's that they're just like Jay, 447 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: I'm putting on weight, I'm eating fried food all the time. 448 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: I'm I don't know how to cook with it. I 449 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: don't know what I'm doing. And then six weeks later, 450 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: I've heard many friends go back, So walk us through 451 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: how you made it sustainable? Yeah, I mean it's a 452 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: really good point. And just before I touched a Night's 453 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: want to just reiterate the point that you just made 454 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 1: just previous to that, which I thought was really interesting, 455 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: which is, you know, it's important thing to recognize that 456 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: humans and non human animals are vastly different from one 457 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: another as a role animal species. You know, we as 458 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: humans have capabilities and capacities that other animals in this 459 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: planet don't have, and intellects you know, moral agency, height, 460 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: you know, heights, and cognitive capacities. These are all things 461 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: that humans hold which other animals don't, not in the 462 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: same way as that we do at least. But I 463 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: think with that comes a great deal of responsibility. You know, 464 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: there's a quote from Spider Man Uncle Ben says, with 465 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: great power comes great responsibility. And I think that's a 466 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: great great thing, because we as humans do have power. 467 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: We have so much power. We have power over each other, 468 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: but we have power over the world and of animals 469 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: within this world. And so when we have that situation 470 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: of authority, we have kind of two choices, don't we. We 471 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,239 Speaker 1: We can even be kind of tyrannical and abusive with 472 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: our power and authority, or we can kind of be 473 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: stewards and nurturers like parents. You know, parents have ultimate 474 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: power over their children. But we see children because of 475 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: the disadvantagement of their lack of cognition, lack of agency, 476 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: parents of a responsibility to look after children. We in 477 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: a society have the responsibility to look after those less 478 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: privileged than us, who don't have the situations that we have, 479 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: who are maybe disenfranchised or or weakened within the constructs 480 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 1: of this society that we live in. How we should 481 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: live is those with power should look after those who 482 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: who don't have those same attributes that we do. And 483 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: I think the relationship of animals is the same. We 484 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: as humans are absolutely more dominant and can be more dominant, 485 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: but that dominance doesn't give us the right to arbitrarily 486 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: harm quite the opposite. I think, you know, to look 487 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: after in nurture and try and create a better world, 488 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: you know, not just for us. Come back to the 489 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: point you made it, because I'm really glad you said that, Karen. Yeah, 490 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 1: the point that you made is potentially in the most 491 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: important points. The recognition that we want to change is 492 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: really important, But then the capacity to do that is 493 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: very different. So for me, when I first went vegan, 494 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 1: I made a dreadful mistake, which is I only ate 495 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: Kale and Keenoir are right. I thought, you know, vegans 496 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: eat this type of food, therefore I have to eat 497 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: this type of food, and you should eat kale and keenoa. 498 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: They're two great food sauces. But I was eating a 499 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: lot of keenoa and kale and thinking, why don't I 500 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: feel full? You know, why don't I feel satiated? And 501 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: I realized that I was taking out you know, big, 502 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: kind of calorie dense foods that were kind of full 503 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: of protein and full of fat, and I wasn't replace 504 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: them with necessarily good alternatives. So I was eating less 505 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 1: calories than I should have done. So I was feeling hungrier, 506 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: and maybe I wasn't eating enough. So I think the 507 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: first thing to do is to research, really important to research, 508 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,479 Speaker 1: because what we want, as you know, as we change 509 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: into this new way of life, is to make sure 510 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: that we do it in a way that optimizes the 511 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: longevity of that change. As you say, people do it 512 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: for a little bit and then they go back because 513 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: it's more comfortable and more convenient, or maybe you know, 514 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: they don't feel like they're eating enough and they're not 515 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: full enough, and so they think, well, this vegan thing 516 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: doesn't work for me, So what we have to do 517 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: is do a little bit of research. So I always 518 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: say to people, recognize why you want to make the change, 519 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: then sit down and look at Okay, protein sources really easy. 520 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: It's really easy when you look at it, but it 521 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: feels like it's a big thing when you're before your vegans. 522 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: Look at protein sources. How do I get protein? Look 523 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: at iron, especially if you're a wrong woman, how do 524 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: you get your iron? Really important zinc? You know, a 525 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 1: mega free. Just do a little bit of research and 526 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: look into how you can do it. And then also 527 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: don't be afraid to experiment. Now, the thing about being 528 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: vegan is you don't have to reinvent the wheel. That's 529 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: what I like about it. You know, for me, when 530 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 1: I first went vegan, it was a different time. There 531 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: was not the options that we have now. There was 532 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: not the recipes online like in the abundance they are now. 533 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: I mean, your wife rad has so much great food 534 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: on her Instagram, you know, so she's a great resource. 535 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: And Instagram is a great resource with people looking to 536 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: find you know, plant miss meals and plant miss foods. 537 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: So do a little bit of research, find some meals 538 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: that you like, but also take the meals you already 539 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: like and simplify it down. For me, I loved pasta. 540 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 1: I've always loved pasta. But I also like stir fries, curries, burritos, nachos, tacos, 541 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: for heaters, whatever it might be. Find what aspect of 542 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: it isn't vegan. Okay, Spaghetti barnad is easy. It's the 543 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: beef mints, right, So take out the cow from the 544 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: meal and replace it with soyments or lentils or whatever 545 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: you want to replace it with. You can cook it 546 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: exactly the same way and you've just changed one thing 547 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: and you eat the exact same food. So I think 548 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: just making small replacements to meals you already like to 549 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: simplifies it down because otherwise we think I've got to 550 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: eat all this vegan food and it's going to be 551 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: really tricky because I'm changing everything about my life. It 552 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be that way. So just those little 553 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: incremental changes in the foods that you're consuming go a 554 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: long way. And then just being empowered to know where 555 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: you're getting nutrients from, how am I going to be healthy? 556 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: Am I hitting my daily targets? And if you're especially worried, 557 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: there are sites like chronometer. Basically, it's just like a website. 558 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: You can get an app on your phone and you 559 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: just log your food. So you put I've had eighty 560 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: grams of brown rice, one hundred grams of brccli, whatever 561 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: it might be, and it tells you the calories, it 562 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: tells you the nutrients, and so at the end of 563 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: the day you can go, yeah, I got all the calories. 564 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: I here's my eye and here's my protein. It's all good. 565 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: Calcium could be a bit higher, so tomorrow I'll have 566 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: another glass of soy milk or something. And then you 567 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: can just cater your diet in your lifestyle around that, 568 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 1: because you know you're hitting your targets. I think that's 569 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: a good thing to do. Yeah, yeah, And I guess 570 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 1: when you've been doing it, you seem fairly healthy, so 571 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: that's a good thingefully yeah. And that was it for 572 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: me too, Like I cut out dairy because I was 573 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: already vegetarian when I married Ryther. I cut out dairy 574 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: basically the night we got married, and so as soon 575 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,239 Speaker 1: as the next day when we were moved into our 576 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: home and everything, we were now not eating any Dairyes, 577 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: So the hardest things for me were cheese and chocolate 578 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: because I love chocolate and a door chocolate It's like 579 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: my favorite thing in the world. And cheese of course, right, 580 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: And actually the crazy thing is since that, So that's 581 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: a cheese of course, right, and actually the crazy thing 582 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: is since that. So that's been five years for me 583 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: since we got married, and I feel so much better 584 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: just on the basis of how I feel. Yeah, I 585 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: didn't do it for that reason. I didn't. I did 586 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: it for animals, like understanding that I was still disconnected. 587 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: I did it from that point of view. But I 588 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 1: feel so much better for it, and I'm healthier for 589 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: it because I'm not consuming as much sugar through the chocolate. Rather, 590 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: these introduced me to all these naturally sweetened cocao nibs 591 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: and all this kind of stuff. So I eat this 592 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 1: thing called monk fruit ironically, yeah, from La Canto or something, 593 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: there's a brand like that, and there's no artificial sugars. No, 594 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: They're all naturally sweetened the monk fruit. So that's been 595 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: better for me cutting out cheese. I've just cut out 596 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 1: cheese completely, so I barely eat even vegan cheese options 597 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: because I'm enjoying your trying new foods and experiencing new flavors, 598 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: and so I feel like making it sustainable is so important. 599 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: But now let's let's go macro. I wanted to talk 600 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: about the vegan propaganda, the book that is out right 601 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: now that i'd love for people to go and read. 602 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: You have three parts. It's a question of morality, playing 603 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: with fire and breaking down the barriers. So we started 604 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: very micro about your journey. I want to zoom out 605 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: and go macro. Now let's talk about morality because I find, 606 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: as we've talked about, for a lot of people, it's 607 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 1: as simple as being rupert. This is what I like 608 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: and this is what I don't like. Right like Rupert 609 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: likes broccoli, doesn't like kale, I like meat, I don't 610 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: like vegetables or fruits. There's that option. There's also the 611 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: idea of what's wrong with it? Right there? They aren't 612 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: as smart as us, as we both already agreed, or 613 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: they can't make those decisions and choices. They've been created 614 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: for that. That's what they're there for. They're on the 615 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: planet for. When you're looking at morality as a whole, 616 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, how how are you trying to help people 617 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: understand that being an animal lover and eating meat don't 618 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: go hand in hand. For me, this issue of morality 619 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: comes down to our capacity to have a choice. You know. 620 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: Obviously it's important to recognize that throughout most of our 621 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: history as humans, we were hunter gatherers, right, you know, 622 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 1: we hunted to survive. Meat has always formed a big 623 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: part of our diet. It provided a sustenance and nutrients 624 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: when we needed it during those times. And you know, 625 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: it got us to where we are, allowed us to 626 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: live as a species and survive and thrive. Along with 627 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: all the berries that we foraged and all the nuts 628 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: that we foraged, all of that combined to us being 629 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: where we are now. But we live in a unique time. 630 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: We have been able to understand what our bodies need 631 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: to survive. We understand vitamins and nutrients and minerals. That's 632 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: only you know, something we've done in the past hundred years. Really, 633 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: we recognize other plant you know, where we can get 634 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: these sources from in plant foods, So we have an 635 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: intelligence and education that we didn't have before. We also 636 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: know more about animals now. Back for our history, we 637 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: used to view animals as kind of these automatons. Right, 638 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: they were there with us, but they weren't sent in. 639 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: They didn't feel You know, we're very flippant in our 640 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: treatment of animals, and we are still today, of course, 641 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: but now we understand more about animals. We understand their complexity. 642 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: You know, we look at documentaries about animals in the 643 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: wild and we see them do amazing things. But more 644 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: than that, we understand and appreciate their individuality in a 645 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: way that previously we probably didn't write. So we have 646 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: an education about how we can be vegan, but we 647 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: also an education about animals. And because we understand what 648 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: animals are able to feel, and we have an understanding 649 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: of what they endure through the processes in which we 650 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: put them in, we can recognize something about them, which 651 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: is that they are having a subjective experience. So what 652 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: I mean by that is we farm eighty billion land 653 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: animals every single year. When you factor in marine animals, 654 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: that number becomes not point eight to two point three trillion. 655 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: That's how many marine animals we kill fish, not point 656 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: eight to two point three trillion every single year. Staggering number, huge, huge, 657 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,479 Speaker 1: eighty billion land animals, and that those numbers are shocking 658 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: and and we say those numbers and we think, wow, 659 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: that's big, but they're very hard to understand because they're 660 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: so huge. It's it's just the statistic. It's just a number. 661 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: How does that look? How do we quantify what that means? 662 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: It's almost impossible. So the best way to look at 663 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: it is that out of all of those billions and trillions, 664 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: each and every one of those is an individual. Now, 665 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: to me, this is where it gets disturbing and alarming, 666 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: because I think about everything that we do to an animal, 667 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: and I think about every single individual animal is experiencing 668 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: that on their own. You know, when we suffer, we 669 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: suffer as individuals. Obviously we can share that the empathy 670 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: of others suffering, but the pain that we feel is 671 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: pain that we feel, and when things happen to us, 672 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: we embody that for our anxieties, our fears, our terrors, 673 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: our worries, and of course the visceral and physical feeling 674 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: of what we're enduring as well. I think about each 675 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: and every individual animal enduring that, and that just magnifies 676 00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: the scale to me in a way that you can't 677 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: recognize within those purely you know, statistical numbers. Because when 678 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: we're hone in on each individual animal, enduring that. I think, Wow, 679 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: you know, every decision we make has an impact on someone. 680 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: We often don't think of animals as someone's We call 681 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: them it. You know, it's a chicken, it's a pig. 682 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: They're only a chicken, They're only a pig. But what 683 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: we fail to recognize is to that pig or chicken, 684 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: their life is as valuable to them as ours as 685 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,239 Speaker 1: to us, because we have one life and they may 686 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: not be able to rationalize the concept of death and 687 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: the concept of not existing in the way that we can. 688 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: But they avoid situations of fear, They avoid situations that 689 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: cause them suffering. They value pleasure and pain over negative 690 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: environments because they value being content. And really, when we 691 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: boil down our existence, that's all we want as well, 692 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: to be content, to be happy. I mean, your work 693 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: is about making people feel as an individual, like they 694 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: belong to themselves. You know, you're increasing people's autonomy, you're 695 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: increasing people's self esteem, You're giving them a sense of 696 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: self worth. You know, we all work, and I think 697 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: so much of what you do, which is so amazing, 698 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: is you empower people to believe in themselves as an individual. 699 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: And so what I'm saying about that is we value 700 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: ourselves well, they value themselves as well. And what we 701 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: do to them is we deny them their autonomy, we 702 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: deny them the right to their own body. And so 703 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: it becomes an issue of reality because we don't have 704 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: to do that anymore. We don't have to do these 705 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: things to them anymore because we have the education and 706 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: awareness to know that there are other ways. And so, 707 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: to simplify it down, ask a really simple question, are 708 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: we against animal cruelty? Do we think that reducing animal 709 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: suffering is morally preferable to not? Everyone says yes to that, 710 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: and everyone says that they're against animal cruelty. So then 711 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: we have to say, well, what does being cruel to 712 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: someone mean? Being cruel to someone means causing them physical 713 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: or mental, emotional, psychological harm for an unnecessary reason, something 714 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: that doesn't need to happen, but negatively impacts them in 715 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: a non consensual way. That's being cruel to someone, whether 716 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: it's bullying, whether it's something a bit more abusive, whatever 717 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: it might be. But what we do to animals must 718 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: therefore constitute an act of cruelty because we don't have 719 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: to do it, and it causes them physical harm, mental harm, 720 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: emotional harm, and it's non consensual. You know, these animals 721 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: they don't they don't willfully agree to be exploited. This 722 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: isn't an environment they wish to be in. And then 723 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: we put them into something called a slaughter house and 724 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: we call them humane. Okay, So what does the word 725 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: humane mean? Well, if we open up a phasaurus, find 726 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: the words humane in the phasaurus. Okay, what are the synonyms? 727 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: What words mean humane? We see compassionate, we see benevolent, 728 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: we see kind. If I call you a humane person, 729 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: I'm saying that you're inherently a good person who values 730 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: others and their feelings, and you want to be compassionate, 731 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: and you are a humane person, Jay, because you embody 732 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: all of those those characteristics. But then what happens in 733 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: the slaughterhouse couldn't possibly be humane because it's not compassionate 734 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: to exploit someone else needlessly, it's not it's not benevolent 735 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: to take the life of someone when we don't have to. 736 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: You know, and many of us do have pets in 737 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: our life, dogs, cats, and it's just thing to say, 738 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: but unfortunately we will probably live to see them be euphanized. 739 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: It's a very sad time for people to experience the 740 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: loss of a family member, because that's how we view 741 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: these animals as family members. Would we ever take them 742 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,959 Speaker 1: to a slaughter house to be euphanized. Never, the thought 743 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: of that would would offend people, would make them so 744 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: sad to think of their beloved family member, and during that, well, 745 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: then it can't be humane, it can't be so when 746 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: we talk about this issue of morality, fundamentally, it's we 747 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: don't have to do this. They're sentient beings who feel 748 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: they're very different to us. But what makes them morally 749 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: relevant is their capacity to suffer, experience pain, the fact 750 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: that they do value their own life, they value their 751 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: own existence. They seek to be of their families, if 752 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: that's what is in their nature. You know, cows from 753 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 1: these strong matriarchal herds, chickens have these flocks. They form 754 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: deep connections with one another, and they can form deep 755 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: connections with us when we give them the chantity like 756 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: animal sanctuaries and places where they're not used and exploited 757 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,800 Speaker 1: and killed. So that's why it's a moral issue for me. 758 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: Great answer, What a great answer. I really appreciate that 759 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: answer because I was listening to you thinking just how 760 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: much culture and tradition impacts it too. So I remember 761 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: going to India for the first time ever when I 762 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: was nine years old, and when I lived as a 763 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: monk there for plenty of time. A big part of 764 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: it was caring for cows. Cows are seen as a 765 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: sacred animal in India and in families growing up in India. 766 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: If you look years ago, a cow would be the 767 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: family pet. I mean, it wouldn't be a pet. It 768 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 1: would be considered a mother, but it would be considered 769 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: part of the family. And the cow would give you milk, 770 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: and the cow would be taken care of, and the 771 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: cow would be loved and adored and revered. And you'd 772 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: almost find dogs that would just walk around stray on 773 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: the street and people wouldn't give them the attention we 774 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: see in the West. So why do you think we've 775 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: been able to build up such a deep, loving relationship 776 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: with dogs and cats? But why do you think we've struggled? 777 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: Because I've seen people play with cows the way we 778 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: play with our dogs. And I know that sounds really 779 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: strange to anyone has never seen it. But I've seen 780 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: people in India hold their cow and hug their cows 781 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: and have that same very deep intimate relationship with the cow. 782 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: But in the West we don't really ever experience that 783 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: apart from with the dog and a cat. Why have 784 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: we been so good at giving our compassion and love 785 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: there but not there? I think there's kind of like 786 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: a utility aspect to this. And what I mean by 787 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: that is historically, especially I guess to the corps where 788 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: we've been, we've we we gave dogs like a task, 789 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: and that task was often been a lookout for us, 790 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: so they would pull our our equipment, you know, like 791 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 1: us on sledges and search and so we've we've always 792 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:35,799 Speaker 1: often valued dogs, but in a different way to the 793 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: other animals. We've used cows as like farm labor, we've 794 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: used you know, other animals in different capacities. But for dogs, 795 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,240 Speaker 1: we've always had a little bit more of an intimate 796 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: relationship because of the nature of the work that we 797 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: used to you know, use them for. And then as 798 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: we started to evolve as a species and we no 799 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: longer needed you know, kind of the ancestors of huskies 800 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,839 Speaker 1: to be our lookouts because of course, you know, from 801 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: wolves and so we know we no longer needed them 802 00:36:58,040 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: to look out for us, so we need no longer 803 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: needed them to call our sledges. And our relationship with 804 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: these animals started to change. Because we still had a 805 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: connection with them, we start to view them a little 806 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 1: bit differently. So what we do is we categorize animals differently. 807 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: So we have wild animals for instance, and if someone 808 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: poaches a wild animal, you know, cessile, the line killer, 809 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 1: there's an uproar because in our minds, we've categorized them 810 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: as being not for that purpose. They exist in the wild. 811 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: We don't need to get anything from them. They don't 812 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: they don't need to earn our respect, you know, they 813 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: do their own thing. And then we have kind of pets, 814 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: and they've earned our respects in a different way. They've 815 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: earned the right to live in our eyes because we 816 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: can form an emotional response with them. We have for 817 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,240 Speaker 1: our history. They can provide utility as members of our family, 818 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: provide us with love, provide us with comfort, provide us 819 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: with mental health support, which is a you know, a 820 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: great thing that pets can do as well. And by pets, 821 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: I use the word pets because it's kind of like 822 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: a conventional term. What I mean is kind of companion animals, 823 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: And let me just explain what I mean by that briefly. 824 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: When I say companion animals, it's just to reiterate the 825 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: point that they are kind of coexisting with us in 826 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: our relationships, our families. The word almost signifies like we 827 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 1: have some sort of authority over them, and we do. 828 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: But when we say companions, it kind of symbolizes that 829 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: relationship more wholesomely. I think it symbolizes that we coexist 830 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,919 Speaker 1: together and they're here for our life and we're they're 831 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: for theirs, So it's kind of a bit more wholesome. 832 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: So companion animals. So we've categorized these animals has been 833 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: companions because the utility from what we get from them 834 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: is different. But then we've categorized as other section of animals, 835 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: we call them food. And what we've essentially done is 836 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: we've otherized them. Otherizing is, you know, a very toxic 837 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: thing that we've done with other humans as well, where 838 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 1: we put them in a different classification and then we 839 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 1: value them differently, and then we create justifications to explain 840 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: why they're in that category. So what we said before, 841 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 1: they're not as intelligent as us, or pigs are dirty, 842 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,240 Speaker 1: chickens are stupid. We've kind of created these arbitrary classifications 843 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: for these animals, and then we treat them differently because 844 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,280 Speaker 1: we've classified them differently. Things that we would never do 845 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: to companion animals, things that we would never like to 846 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: happen to wild animal we can do arbitrarily to these 847 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,399 Speaker 1: animals because they're the food animals, and so their place 848 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: in this world and our relationship with them and the 849 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: utility we can get through them is different, and that's 850 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: why they're here. So part of it is obviously cultural. 851 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 1: The question to ask ourselves is well, is something moral 852 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: simply because it's cultural. I think we all agree that 853 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,399 Speaker 1: that's not the case, and we look for our history, 854 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: don't when we see examples of things that were cultural, 855 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 1: examples of things that were traditional. But we're not moral, 856 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: And thankfully we challenged ourselves to understand that, and we 857 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 1: changed our relationship with the oppressed in those scenarios to 858 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: hopefully try and create better systems of a more equality, 859 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 1: which obviously still needs a lot of work on as well. 860 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 1: But when it comes to the animals that we've categorized 861 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: as food, culturally, we have ingrained this behavior culturally. We 862 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 1: have allowed this to become such a dominant viewpoint that 863 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: we never really think about it. What's interesting is as children, 864 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: we don't have these categorizations. Give a four year old 865 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: child a piglet and a puppy that the child isn't 866 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,359 Speaker 1: going to push the piglet to one side to say, 867 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: you know, kill this animal, but let me live this animal. 868 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,879 Speaker 1: The child enjoys the company of both because they don't 869 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: see that distinction. Yet, we raise children to start to 870 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: view animals differently. It's this term called species is basically, 871 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 1: what it means is that we arbitrarily exploit different animals 872 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: based on the species they're born into. So, you know, 873 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: we harm a pig because they're a pig. If that 874 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: pig was a dog, it would be different. But you know, fundamentally, 875 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,399 Speaker 1: the moral distinction between those animals is non existent. Pigs 876 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: and dogs are very similar in their intelligence, in their sociability, 877 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 1: in all these different ways. But because we see them 878 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: as that species, they look the way they do. That's 879 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: why we harm them because of their view, you know, 880 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: their appearance, and that's what species m is. It's kind 881 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 1: of addressing that we're arbitrarily harming this being, this individual 882 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: because of the way they look, because of how they 883 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: were born, because of the species the body they were 884 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: born into. So anyway, we have these cultures and traditions 885 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: that are ingrained for our history for hundreds, sometimes thousands 886 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: of years, and we don't ever think about them critically, 887 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: because why would we. Our peers do it. Our parents 888 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: engage in this, our society is engage in this. It's legal. 889 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: But then does legality equal morality? Again, history shows us 890 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: that it shouldn't be that case, and it clearly isn't. 891 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: So when we start to think a little bit more 892 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,719 Speaker 1: deeply about each of these individual arguments that we use, 893 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: we start to realize that actually they don't really justify 894 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 1: at all what we do to these animals, and that 895 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: cultures and traditions should be challenged because we do look 896 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,760 Speaker 1: across the world and we see what happens to dogs 897 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: in Asia, for example. It's a you know, a classic example, 898 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: and we signed petitions demanding for it to stop. You know, 899 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: this is an abomination. We shouldn't be doing this to dogs. 900 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: Oh but I want to eat my bacon sandwich. Oh 901 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: but I want my fried chicken burger. Which is what 902 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,399 Speaker 1: the person I used to be. But if we think 903 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 1: we'll actually outside of the culture that we're raised in, 904 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 1: outside of the fact that we viewed dogs as companions 905 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: and pigs as and chickens as food, what really is 906 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: the difference other than that arbitrary classification. Because you put 907 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: a dog in a farm in a slaughterhouse, and you 908 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: put a pig in a farm in a slaughterhouse, and 909 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 1: he put a cow in a farm and then in 910 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: a slaughterhouse. They experienced each of those individual actions identically 911 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,280 Speaker 1: to the individual in those environments. There is no difference 912 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: to the difference to the experience that they're enduring. Yeah, 913 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: The only difference is our perception. So we view them 914 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:18,759 Speaker 1: as different. But when we break away that perception and 915 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: we view them not as being as different in their 916 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: own in their own rights, but similar in the ways 917 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: that matter, all of a sudden we recognize if it's 918 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: wrong for this animal, whethern it must be wrong for 919 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,319 Speaker 1: this animal, and it must be wrong for that animal. Yeah, 920 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,359 Speaker 1: And I think that's what we need to do more, 921 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: is to challenge those deeply ingrained and normalized behaviors, the 922 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,240 Speaker 1: ones that we don't even think about. The unconscious ones 923 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: AND's And that's really where it comes up from me, 924 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: Like you know I again, and I love what you 925 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 1: just said there too. It's like I grew up eating me, 926 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 1: so I very clearly understand at that time when I me, 927 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,319 Speaker 1: I had no idea what the word vegetarian even was. 928 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: To some degree, I didn't know what veganism was for sure, 929 00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: and I didn't know about any other diet that existed 930 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 1: apart from what I a And so now when I 931 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: look at that, I recognize that. And this is why 932 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: I'm hoping this podcast is going to help a lot 933 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: of people, because you're so brilliant at educating, and I 934 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: think you do that wonderfully, and this education is what's missing. 935 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: It's not that people are bad people. I don't judge 936 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,399 Speaker 1: anyone who eats meat because I beat myself, so I 937 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 1: understand how easy it is to be in that space 938 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 1: where you are making these distinctions. And what I love 939 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: about the way you just broke that down is because 940 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: you're spot on that throughout history, we've done that to 941 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: humans that look different from us, that have a different 942 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: hair color than us, Like we've done that, Like you 943 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,800 Speaker 1: said that legality and morality don't go hand in hand 944 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,440 Speaker 1: because we've had to upgrade legality to achieve real morality. 945 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 1: It's been a constant upgrade and we're still getting there. 946 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: So that I really find fascinating because what we're doing 947 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 1: to animals right now is what we've done to humans 948 00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 1: throughout history. And yes, we may have at least eternally 949 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,879 Speaker 1: stopped doing it to humans or in organized ways, but 950 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: we are currently still doing it in very organized institutional 951 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 1: ways to animals. Yeah, I mean what you said right 952 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 1: at the beginning of that is really important. You know, 953 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,279 Speaker 1: good people can engage in things that are bad. We all, 954 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: we all do, you know, we all do. Because we 955 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 1: do live in an inherently imperfect world. By the mere 956 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,680 Speaker 1: fact that we have to do things to survive. We 957 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: have to eat, we have to drink. There is going 958 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: to be things that happen on this planet that a 959 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: negative for some people on this planet. And by people 960 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: I mean I can also mean animals, you know, the 961 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,759 Speaker 1: extraction of resources from nature, things like that. So we 962 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 1: do live an inherently imperfect world. And unfortunately we're never 963 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 1: gonna if well, i'd like to think we could, but realistically, 964 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 1: we're never going to achieve a perfect utopia, you know, 965 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:44,319 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean the aspiration shouldn't be to get 966 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 1: as close as we possibly can. So the important thing 967 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: to recognize is, yeah, it's not about saying this one's 968 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 1: bad because they engage in bad things. It's not as 969 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:52,960 Speaker 1: easy as that. The world isn't as black and white 970 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,360 Speaker 1: as we sometimes like to think it is. It's actually 971 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 1: a lot more nuanced and complicated, and we all in 972 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 1: our own ways, can engage in industries that are bad. 973 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,759 Speaker 1: And what we do to animals is just objectively bad 974 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: in every sense of the words. But good people can 975 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: engage in that because of these cultural structures, these societal barriers. 976 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 1: And the third section of the book is all about that, 977 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 1: you know. The first section of the book is dealing 978 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: with the moral aspect. It's talking about what we do 979 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 1: to animals, it's talking about the history of what we 980 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 1: do to animals, is talking about the ethical implications, and 981 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,400 Speaker 1: it's trying to hopefully challenge us to think about our 982 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,239 Speaker 1: own morality. The second section of the book then talks 983 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 1: about the environment. It talks about you know, pandemics and 984 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:33,320 Speaker 1: infectious disease, something that is heavily linked to factory farming 985 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 1: and video you made about that that was brilliant. Yeah, 986 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah, it's we don't really realize, but buying 987 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 1: a chicken breast is one of the most dangerous things 988 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 1: that we can do in terms of creating a new pandemic, 989 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,560 Speaker 1: you know, same with bacon. So it's about looking at 990 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: that and then also chronic health, so looking at the 991 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,799 Speaker 1: heart disease, you know, certain forms of cancers, looking at 992 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: how it impacts us as individuals as well. But then 993 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 1: the third section was really important to me because I 994 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,120 Speaker 1: wanted to give people the reasons to be vegan, but 995 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: I also then wanted to explain why it is that 996 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: these systems exist. And to try and almost diffuse the 997 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,359 Speaker 1: idea of judgment and feeling bad is to say, look, 998 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,960 Speaker 1: this is all objectively wrong, but you're not a bad 999 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,160 Speaker 1: person if you've engaged in this up until this point, 1000 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,480 Speaker 1: because there are all these boundaries, there are all these 1001 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 1: barriers that are these psychological, social, and cultural things. So 1002 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 1: it's about helping people understand the mechanisms behind why we 1003 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 1: do what we do, because that's almost as important as 1004 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,200 Speaker 1: understanding what we do why we do it, because it's 1005 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,239 Speaker 1: through understanding the why that we can challenge it and 1006 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,840 Speaker 1: go right, Okay, when I'm in a supermarket and I 1007 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 1: see that piece of steak, I can think about what 1008 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,480 Speaker 1: happens to the animal. I know how that impacts the environment. 1009 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,360 Speaker 1: I know how that impacts my health. But now I 1010 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: understand that psychological thing that makes me want to pick 1011 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: it up. I know how I've got myself into this 1012 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,799 Speaker 1: state where I know I'm desiring this, where I'm normalizing this, 1013 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,080 Speaker 1: and I can challenge my own preconceptions of why I 1014 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 1: do what I do as well. So trying to build 1015 00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 1: that up for people, I think is really important because 1016 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: you're right, and then to kind of go back to 1017 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 1: what you said right at the end. Unfortunately, human history 1018 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:06,240 Speaker 1: has never been without its significant problems. We've never reached 1019 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:07,920 Speaker 1: a point and we're certainly not there yet where we 1020 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,439 Speaker 1: can sit down and relax and go, oh wow, we've 1021 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 1: we've overcome every adversity on this planet. When we're not 1022 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 1: even close to that. When when we think about the 1023 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,839 Speaker 1: history of our species, especially you know, in the past 1024 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: few hundred years, this work is only just beginning to 1025 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,399 Speaker 1: have a humans as well, it's only just beginning. But 1026 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,879 Speaker 1: our intelligence can sometimes cloud our imperfections. You know, we 1027 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,800 Speaker 1: are so intelligent and we're capable of doing so much. 1028 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:33,799 Speaker 1: And what the world could look like if we if 1029 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 1: we just came together and sat and empathized and fought 1030 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,319 Speaker 1: deeply about these issues and got through some of these 1031 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,399 Speaker 1: kind of more kind of primal aspects that we haven't 1032 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,040 Speaker 1: quite evolved out of yet, we could achieve such a 1033 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: wonderful thing, and we could create such a great world. 1034 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,759 Speaker 1: But unfortunately we're nowhere near that yet. And what we 1035 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,080 Speaker 1: do to animals is just becoming part of the conversation. 1036 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,400 Speaker 1: And I'm very grateful that it's now part of the conversation, 1037 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,520 Speaker 1: but it's just happening now, and we've been doing this 1038 00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: for hundreds thousands of years to them. And when we 1039 00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,879 Speaker 1: look at the justifications, when we look at the view, 1040 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,359 Speaker 1: when we look at the reaction that people have to 1041 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,000 Speaker 1: those who say that they want to defend their bodies 1042 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 1: and rights of animals, we can see a lot of 1043 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: parallels that automatic dismissal. No, they're different, they're not like us. 1044 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 1: We don't need to do that. Society has been built 1045 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,839 Speaker 1: in this way. It's legal, you know, we don't think 1046 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,560 Speaker 1: about it. All of these things that have perpetuated oppression 1047 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 1: to humans are now being seen to perpetuating oppression to animals, 1048 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 1: and I'm grateful that we're starting to challenge it. But 1049 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,400 Speaker 1: it's important that we don't ever think and get complacent 1050 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,319 Speaker 1: in our morality because we're always going to be able 1051 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,120 Speaker 1: to improve a little bit more, and what we do 1052 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,359 Speaker 1: to animals is now part of that improvement. It's part 1053 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: of that conversation to say, actually, we've achieved a lot, 1054 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:44,680 Speaker 1: but we've got a long way to go, and our 1055 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: relationship with those who are we more vulnerable than us 1056 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,880 Speaker 1: will define how far we can come in the future. Yeah, 1057 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,200 Speaker 1: well said absolutely. And one of the things you mentioned 1058 00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,040 Speaker 1: there that I think is the healthiest way, and as 1059 00:48:58,080 --> 00:48:59,640 Speaker 1: i said from the start of the interview, I've been 1060 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,000 Speaker 1: doing my own way, is is that reflection when you're 1061 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,880 Speaker 1: now at the supermarket or the grocery store or wherever 1062 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,799 Speaker 1: you are and you're having to have that dialogue and 1063 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 1: that internal conversation with yourself. Usually it gets trumped by 1064 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 1: things like, but veganism is really expensive, and vegan food 1065 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,320 Speaker 1: is really pricey. And when we think about poorer countries, 1066 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,240 Speaker 1: or poorer families or poorer communities that need to shift. 1067 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:26,719 Speaker 1: You can go to McDonald's and get a happy meal 1068 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,640 Speaker 1: for a dollar, or get like burger fries and coke 1069 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,239 Speaker 1: for like, I don't know, like a dollar, fifty or 1070 00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,799 Speaker 1: whatever it is. And then you start thinking about, oh, 1071 00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,880 Speaker 1: but salad's like fifteen dollars or even if if I 1072 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,600 Speaker 1: buy it, I'm saying, if I make it, then sure 1073 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,479 Speaker 1: it's cheaper. But what have you looked at when you're 1074 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,360 Speaker 1: thinking about people saying, well, veganism is expensive. It's expensive 1075 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,759 Speaker 1: to eat healthy and to eat to support animals. Yeah, 1076 00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,319 Speaker 1: I mean it's important to stay and maybe I should 1077 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,480 Speaker 1: have done earlier that there are nuances to everything. There 1078 00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 1: are people in this world, obviously, globally speaking, there are 1079 00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,279 Speaker 1: you know, there are many people in this world don't 1080 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,080 Speaker 1: have the accessibility that we have, especially you and I, 1081 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,759 Speaker 1: you know, recording this in Los Angeles where it's very 1082 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,440 Speaker 1: easy for us. There are obviously, when we speak globally, 1083 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,279 Speaker 1: there are people that don't have the accessibility, the affordability, 1084 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,080 Speaker 1: the availability and the option to make the choice that 1085 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,120 Speaker 1: we can make. And that's absolutely fine to recognize. And 1086 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,279 Speaker 1: then even in the culture and society where we are 1087 00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,720 Speaker 1: we're in the US, obviously there's huge problems with economic 1088 00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,200 Speaker 1: disparity here as there are in most places around the world, 1089 00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,440 Speaker 1: and also availability and abundance, and again we recognize that 1090 00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,440 Speaker 1: they're in nuances to what people can achieve within their 1091 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,200 Speaker 1: own life. Now there's a study that was released, but 1092 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:34,200 Speaker 1: it was it was just published, I think yesterday, it's 1093 00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,120 Speaker 1: been reported on today, the day that we're filming, that is, 1094 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 1: and it was looking at the expense of plant based foods. 1095 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,840 Speaker 1: And ultimately, if you're go into a whole foods and 1096 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,560 Speaker 1: you're buying like beyond burgers, beyond sausages, impossible, that kind 1097 00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,040 Speaker 1: of thing, that's going to be more expensive. But at 1098 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,000 Speaker 1: the same time, if you stick to whole foods and 1099 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,160 Speaker 1: those are the healthier foods, you know, the whole grains, 1100 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:58,000 Speaker 1: the beings, whole plant foods exactly, so minimally processed plant 1101 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:02,480 Speaker 1: foods exactly. So you know, things like the whole grains, legumes, beans, chickpeas, 1102 00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,080 Speaker 1: seasonal vegetables and fruits, you can actually save money. You know, 1103 00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,080 Speaker 1: normally when you go in to supermarket, the most expensive 1104 00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,920 Speaker 1: things you can buy a steak, cheese often and like 1105 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,600 Speaker 1: salmon filets, so you can actually save money. The study 1106 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:15,200 Speaker 1: was saying you could say about thirty percent on your 1107 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,359 Speaker 1: normal budget by switching to these whole plant foods, which 1108 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,400 Speaker 1: are the healthier ones as well, thankfully, which is a 1109 00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:22,880 Speaker 1: good thing. But not everyone has that option. Everyone has 1110 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,759 Speaker 1: the accessibility. So I think that that gives us those 1111 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,360 Speaker 1: who do even more responsibility, even more of an obligation 1112 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,759 Speaker 1: to make those changes, because the only way that we 1113 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:38,600 Speaker 1: can challenge the disparity in people's ability to access certain 1114 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,319 Speaker 1: foods is by fundamentally challenging the food system itself. If 1115 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,000 Speaker 1: we keep buying the same foods and perpetuating the same 1116 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,520 Speaker 1: systems with our purchases, we're not asking for change. Now. 1117 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,480 Speaker 1: The food industry is propped up by things like subsidies 1118 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,840 Speaker 1: from the government, which drive down the prices of foods. 1119 00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:56,520 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a reason you can go to McDonald's 1120 00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,440 Speaker 1: and get a chicken burger for a couple of dollars, 1121 00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,279 Speaker 1: but if you want a punet of blueberry is going 1122 00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:02,279 Speaker 1: to set you back, you know, three or four or 1123 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:04,719 Speaker 1: five dollars, right, And that's because of the way that 1124 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,919 Speaker 1: the government subsidizes. It subsidizes these foods. If you look 1125 00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,000 Speaker 1: at the cost of raising animals, of producing feed for animals, 1126 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,840 Speaker 1: of the antibiotics used for animals, you know of the 1127 00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,839 Speaker 1: equipment of the the land everything, and then you look 1128 00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,680 Speaker 1: at the environmental cost, the cleanup costs, the health costs 1129 00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,120 Speaker 1: for healthcare for people who end up with health disease 1130 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,719 Speaker 1: as a consequence. The price these products is absolutely massive. 1131 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,680 Speaker 1: It's just hidden costs that we don't think about. But 1132 00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,160 Speaker 1: we need to challenge this. And the only way we 1133 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,120 Speaker 1: can challenge that is by making choices and changes in 1134 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,200 Speaker 1: our own individual life. So for those of us who 1135 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,239 Speaker 1: have the power, the capacity, the privilege, let's use that word, 1136 00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:41,960 Speaker 1: because that's what it is, the privilege to be able 1137 00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,000 Speaker 1: to make these choices, I think we're even more obliged 1138 00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:45,839 Speaker 1: to do so for those people in the future who 1139 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,319 Speaker 1: would like to but maybe don't have the capacity to now, 1140 00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,359 Speaker 1: who aren't given the luxury of being able to think 1141 00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,200 Speaker 1: critically because you know, they've got a family to feed, 1142 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,640 Speaker 1: they're working two jobs, there's no supermarket close by, there's 1143 00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:58,600 Speaker 1: only a McDonald's, a tackle bell, and they need to 1144 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,600 Speaker 1: feed their family. What are you going to do as 1145 00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:04,160 Speaker 1: a parent? What we know and that's exactly what happens. 1146 00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,320 Speaker 1: So if we want to help people in situations of 1147 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,799 Speaker 1: economic disparity where the abundance isn't there, then we need 1148 00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:12,880 Speaker 1: to challenge the system. The first way to do that 1149 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,319 Speaker 1: is to change our behaviors and then vote with our 1150 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,240 Speaker 1: dollar and then hopefully influence the supply and demand system. 1151 00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:19,920 Speaker 1: And then through that we can start to campaign to 1152 00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,239 Speaker 1: our governments and say, look, part of the pun but 1153 00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:24,439 Speaker 1: there's an appetite for change here, you know. And then 1154 00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,560 Speaker 1: we can try to create a more equal agricultural food system. 1155 00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,160 Speaker 1: But it starts right now, at least with that individual 1156 00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,640 Speaker 1: making that choice, and then you know, a mass collective 1157 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,480 Speaker 1: individuals coming together. You know, one thing people often say 1158 00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,839 Speaker 1: to me, as they say, ed know, maybe I agree 1159 00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:39,600 Speaker 1: with you, but me not buying that cheese in the 1160 00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,440 Speaker 1: supermarket isn't going to change the world, and it's not. 1161 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,879 Speaker 1: But anything that ever has changed the world has changed 1162 00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,240 Speaker 1: the world because of a mass group of individuals. Anything 1163 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,759 Speaker 1: positive comes from the individual realizing and wanting to be 1164 00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:54,520 Speaker 1: an active part in that change. And we all have 1165 00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,360 Speaker 1: the power to be an individual within that mass collective 1166 00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:01,239 Speaker 1: movement that creates positive different that creates positive difference. And 1167 00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,240 Speaker 1: I want everyone to know who is listening right now, 1168 00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,839 Speaker 1: that when you get the book This is Vegan Propaganda. 1169 00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:12,480 Speaker 1: It talks about everything from the environmental impacts through to 1170 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,279 Speaker 1: the meat paradox, to how to do this in a 1171 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,839 Speaker 1: healthy unhealthy alternatives that exist in the world. I think 1172 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,400 Speaker 1: what's fascinating is that this book dives so deeply into 1173 00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,200 Speaker 1: so much more than what we've discussed today. It's the 1174 00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,400 Speaker 1: environmental impacts, it's the impact of what is a healthy 1175 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,960 Speaker 1: and unhealthy way of doing this. You're asking the questions 1176 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,480 Speaker 1: that are important to us. Can pour a country shift 1177 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,879 Speaker 1: in this direction. And so the reason why I want 1178 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:40,920 Speaker 1: everyone to go and grab the book This is Vegan Propaganda, 1179 00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,000 Speaker 1: is because I want us to just be educated and 1180 00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,839 Speaker 1: learn and be informed so that we can make informed decisions. 1181 00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,800 Speaker 1: And I think that that's how what we saw happen 1182 00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:53,480 Speaker 1: in the world over the last few years is we 1183 00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:59,160 Speaker 1: all had a very uniquely similar experience as a species. 1184 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,920 Speaker 1: We started to recognize that when we all thought in 1185 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:04,960 Speaker 1: a certain direction, we can make change. But the thought 1186 00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,520 Speaker 1: had to start with education. Yeah, like all, the thing 1187 00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:09,600 Speaker 1: has to start with education. And I think the challenge 1188 00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,879 Speaker 1: with veganism for a very very long time as being 1189 00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,400 Speaker 1: that there has been no education around it. It's been 1190 00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,880 Speaker 1: a point of view. It's been a debate, it's been 1191 00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:22,480 Speaker 1: an argument, it's been a forced, potentially or fear based 1192 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,680 Speaker 1: language and education, whereas now it's just like, well, this 1193 00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,920 Speaker 1: is just what's happening. Yeah, and Ed, I just appreciate 1194 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,680 Speaker 1: you so much for doing what you're doing, and I 1195 00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,239 Speaker 1: can't wait to see you continue to do it in 1196 00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,839 Speaker 1: more beautiful, incredible ways. I can't wait for the documentary 1197 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:39,080 Speaker 1: when that happens. But for everyone who's been listening right now, 1198 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,799 Speaker 1: highly recommend go and follow earthling Ed on Instagram to 1199 00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,680 Speaker 1: keep up today and on YouTube as well, and of 1200 00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:48,160 Speaker 1: course go and grab the book. This is vegan propaganda. 1201 00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:49,680 Speaker 1: I could talk to Ed for hours, but I have 1202 00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,960 Speaker 1: to unfortunately start. But Ed, I'm going to ask you 1203 00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,120 Speaker 1: what we always end every interview with, which is called 1204 00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:58,279 Speaker 1: the final five, and you will, I know, put your 1205 00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,239 Speaker 1: spin on all of these. So the first question is 1206 00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,200 Speaker 1: what is the best vegan or plant based advice that 1207 00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:09,879 Speaker 1: you've ever received? Research? Research, research, research, because it's free 1208 00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:13,080 Speaker 1: research that we can become yet informed consumers like you say, 1209 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:17,240 Speaker 1: and Aristotle the philosopher once said, the roots of education 1210 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,759 Speaker 1: are bitter, but the fruit is sweet, And I think 1211 00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,279 Speaker 1: that's so profound because it isn't comfortable to learn about 1212 00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:24,200 Speaker 1: these issues, and a lot of what we discussed can 1213 00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:27,400 Speaker 1: be challenging. But the prize at the end of it 1214 00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,239 Speaker 1: is consistency in our values and the sense of being 1215 00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:32,759 Speaker 1: a part of something positive. So yeah, the roots of 1216 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:34,840 Speaker 1: education a bitter, but the fruit is sweet. That's a 1217 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,360 Speaker 1: great answer, all right. What is the worst vegan advice 1218 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,560 Speaker 1: you've ever seen? The worst vegan advice? Oh well, that's 1219 00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:45,640 Speaker 1: a good question. The worst vegan advice given. I think 1220 00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:48,239 Speaker 1: it comes down to advocacy. People have a range of 1221 00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:50,319 Speaker 1: different views about how to advocate for issues, like we've 1222 00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,440 Speaker 1: spoken about a couple of times, and some people have 1223 00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,239 Speaker 1: views about how to do it that are different to 1224 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:57,600 Speaker 1: my views. And for me, I practice what I preach 1225 00:56:57,680 --> 00:56:59,080 Speaker 1: in the sense of I try and come across in 1226 00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:00,839 Speaker 1: the way that I think others should. And so people 1227 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,480 Speaker 1: disagree with that, and so their advice to me has 1228 00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,760 Speaker 1: been contradicting what I think. So to me, that hasn't 1229 00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,560 Speaker 1: always been the best advice. That's good, all right. If 1230 00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:09,960 Speaker 1: you could make one law in the world that everyone 1231 00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,160 Speaker 1: had to follow, what would it be? Oh? Wow? I 1232 00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,800 Speaker 1: mean the dogmatic side of me says be vegan obviously, 1233 00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:16,960 Speaker 1: and obviously I mean if there was one law in 1234 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,040 Speaker 1: the world, Yeah, that's what i'd want. But I appreciate 1235 00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,640 Speaker 1: that sounds so dogmatic, doesn't it. But I'd have to 1236 00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:25,680 Speaker 1: say that I don't know, so yeah, expecting it. Yeah, 1237 00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:28,480 Speaker 1: I mean it would be surprising after all this if 1238 00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,760 Speaker 1: you came up with totally random maybe maybe to soften it. 1239 00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:35,440 Speaker 1: Be nice to animals, yeah, yeah, look after them. Yeah, 1240 00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:38,320 Speaker 1: and redefine the word humane. Yes, for ourselves when it 1241 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:40,280 Speaker 1: comes to animals. All right. Fourth question, what is the 1242 00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,160 Speaker 1: biggest lesson you've learned in the past twelve months. Yeah, 1243 00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:45,160 Speaker 1: in the past twelve months, I think Again it comes 1244 00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:48,120 Speaker 1: down to the idea of good people can do bad things. 1245 00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:49,800 Speaker 1: It's something I've been learning a lot. But I think 1246 00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,040 Speaker 1: that especially in the past couple of years, but even 1247 00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:55,360 Speaker 1: in the past twelve months, I've really enjoyed the company 1248 00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,480 Speaker 1: of humans. That sounds strange, maybe, but the pandemic has 1249 00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,880 Speaker 1: disconnected us a lot from one another. And I used 1250 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:02,960 Speaker 1: to do this, you know, have conversations and you know, 1251 00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:05,600 Speaker 1: meet people a lot before the pandemic, as we all did, right, 1252 00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:07,680 Speaker 1: And in the past twelve months, as I've slow started 1253 00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,360 Speaker 1: to be able to integrate back into some of these 1254 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,720 Speaker 1: these realms of conversation. It's made me realize how much 1255 00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:15,360 Speaker 1: I enjoy humans, even humans that are doing the thing 1256 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:17,440 Speaker 1: that I'm trying to stop. What I like about having 1257 00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,200 Speaker 1: debates with people is it makes me realize how connected 1258 00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:22,640 Speaker 1: we all are, how we all think very similarly at times, 1259 00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:24,600 Speaker 1: you know, about these issues. How we're not that different 1260 00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,320 Speaker 1: from one another. Doesn't matter if I go to a 1261 00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,640 Speaker 1: university here, or a farm here, or you know, this 1262 00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:33,120 Speaker 1: country or wherever we so we think intrinsically very similar. 1263 00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:35,200 Speaker 1: And that's something that I've learned, especially as we come out, 1264 00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:36,760 Speaker 1: you know, we're still in the pandemic, but as we 1265 00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:38,440 Speaker 1: started to see the light at the end of the 1266 00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:40,360 Speaker 1: tunnel and I've been able to reintegrate back into the 1267 00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,480 Speaker 1: work that I used to do. Just how much humans 1268 00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:46,040 Speaker 1: can be good, you know. And I think that's a 1269 00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,479 Speaker 1: really powerful thing for me to keep reminding myself. Yeah, 1270 00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,120 Speaker 1: I mean, some of my best friends are not vegan, 1271 00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,320 Speaker 1: some of my closest friends in my family, and and 1272 00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:56,080 Speaker 1: just so many people I love. And I think that 1273 00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:58,680 Speaker 1: that's such a good point. And you know, when we're 1274 00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:00,400 Speaker 1: sitting down to do this. I know this comes from 1275 00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,200 Speaker 1: both of our hearts, Like I'm doing this to out 1276 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,360 Speaker 1: of a compassion and education, Like there's no part of 1277 00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,280 Speaker 1: me that judges anyone for doing something that I just 1278 00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,600 Speaker 1: did a few years ago, and that lack of judgment 1279 00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:13,720 Speaker 1: is what allows all of us to go. And by 1280 00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:15,240 Speaker 1: the way, I also think it's important to stay. And 1281 00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,320 Speaker 1: I haven't felt this from a moment of meeting you. 1282 00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,160 Speaker 1: I mean when I when I've seen your videos, I'm like, wow, 1283 00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:22,160 Speaker 1: Ed is Ed is tough in a good way. And 1284 00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:24,480 Speaker 1: I met you today, You're the sweetest human ever. I'm like, Wow, 1285 00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:27,040 Speaker 1: this guy's Like I was like, well, it's so nice. 1286 00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,560 Speaker 1: Not that I expected you would be not nice. You 1287 00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:32,520 Speaker 1: Like I was like, wow, Ed is just so personal 1288 00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:35,360 Speaker 1: and just so I don't know what it is. You 1289 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,240 Speaker 1: have a real sweetness and softness and kindness about you 1290 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,120 Speaker 1: in person that people wouldn't get to see always through 1291 00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,040 Speaker 1: a debate or a screen. And I really feel that 1292 00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,920 Speaker 1: the idea that this is all coming from a place 1293 00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:52,160 Speaker 1: of just compassion, love, kindness, and non judgment. And also 1294 00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:56,520 Speaker 1: there's we shouldn't feel have an ego. This is how 1295 00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:58,919 Speaker 1: we were trained as monks that just because you care 1296 00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:02,160 Speaker 1: for animals. That's actually the most basic human quality, Like 1297 01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:04,480 Speaker 1: you can't have an ego about that. Either. You can't 1298 01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:07,800 Speaker 1: think you're better because you're vegan, because the whole point 1299 01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,120 Speaker 1: is that you should be honoring these animals anyway. And 1300 01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:13,439 Speaker 1: so I think there's there's both ends of the coin 1301 01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,680 Speaker 1: of the ego in how we present veganism to others, 1302 01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,360 Speaker 1: but also the ego we feel internally because we think 1303 01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:21,040 Speaker 1: we're better than others, And I think both of those 1304 01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:25,920 Speaker 1: have to be removed. Yeah, fifth and final question is 1305 01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,400 Speaker 1: what is anything that I haven't asked you but you 1306 01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,680 Speaker 1: really want to say because you feel that it's on 1307 01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:34,320 Speaker 1: your heart and on your mind and needs to be shared. 1308 01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:39,160 Speaker 1: I think accountability. It's really important to me that I 1309 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,160 Speaker 1: come across in a way that seems empathetic to people. 1310 01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,560 Speaker 1: And a lot of what that I do is trying 1311 01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:46,840 Speaker 1: to rationalize why people do what they do so that I, 1312 01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:48,720 Speaker 1: you know, so it's easy to empathize with them. You know, 1313 01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:51,080 Speaker 1: you can understand the processes of why people do what 1314 01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:56,200 Speaker 1: they do. But accountability is also really important. And I 1315 01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:57,880 Speaker 1: was put in a situation from my partner where I 1316 01:00:57,920 --> 01:00:59,960 Speaker 1: was forced to hold myself accountable to the decisions that 1317 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,200 Speaker 1: I was making. And so whilst it's really important that 1318 01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:05,800 Speaker 1: we you know, are very reflective, we also have to 1319 01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,440 Speaker 1: be accountable for our decisions, you know. And again this 1320 01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,040 Speaker 1: relates directly to your work as well. About you know, 1321 01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:12,880 Speaker 1: it's all well and good understanding what we should do, 1322 01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:15,400 Speaker 1: but if we want to see those positive benefits in 1323 01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,240 Speaker 1: our own life and we want to hit the targets 1324 01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,760 Speaker 1: that we want and improve ourselves in the way that 1325 01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:21,680 Speaker 1: we want to improve ourselves, we have to be accountable 1326 01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:25,880 Speaker 1: to ourselves. And when we view veganism from the position 1327 01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,720 Speaker 1: of the individual, who's who's suffering. When we think about 1328 01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,760 Speaker 1: the animal and we view veganism, obviously there's so many 1329 01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:34,720 Speaker 1: benefits to ourselves and where as in an individual making 1330 01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,200 Speaker 1: that change. But when we view veganism from the perspective 1331 01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,680 Speaker 1: of the person who suffers as a consequence of the 1332 01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:42,320 Speaker 1: decision that we make when it comes to buying animal products, 1333 01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:44,959 Speaker 1: that's what that accountability has to come in to say, 1334 01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:46,920 Speaker 1: I understand why I should do it, you know, I'm 1335 01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:49,040 Speaker 1: going to research how to do it sustainably and healthfully. 1336 01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:50,800 Speaker 1: And then the final piece of the puzzle is to 1337 01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:53,760 Speaker 1: be accountable to ourselves, to our own morals, but accountable 1338 01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:56,560 Speaker 1: to them. They can't talk to us, they can't communicate, 1339 01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:58,360 Speaker 1: you know, a chicken can't say please, don't do this, 1340 01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:02,000 Speaker 1: but if they could, they would, they would, you know, 1341 01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:04,600 Speaker 1: and they vocalize it in ways that we recognize, you know, 1342 01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:07,200 Speaker 1: for the cries and the screams and the actions and 1343 01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:10,080 Speaker 1: the body movements, but we don't see it. So it's 1344 01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:11,880 Speaker 1: hard to be accountable to something that we don't see, 1345 01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,320 Speaker 1: that's out of sight and out of mind. So connect 1346 01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:17,120 Speaker 1: with it, you know, think deeply about these issues, and 1347 01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:20,360 Speaker 1: then accountability on our behalf to say, I need to 1348 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,000 Speaker 1: push myself in ways that might seem a little bit inconvenient, 1349 01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,680 Speaker 1: that might not be that comfortable luck you know, that 1350 01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,160 Speaker 1: might lead a little bit you know, daunting at the beginning. 1351 01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:30,480 Speaker 1: But the benefit of doing that isn't just the benefit 1352 01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:32,320 Speaker 1: to ourselves, it's to them. And they don't have a choice. 1353 01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,320 Speaker 1: We have the choice the power to dictate what they 1354 01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:37,600 Speaker 1: have to go through or ultimately what they don't have 1355 01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:39,800 Speaker 1: to go through. Yeah, you know what the most beautiful 1356 01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:41,720 Speaker 1: thing about this interview has being that we've been talking 1357 01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:44,760 Speaker 1: about something that can be very divisive. It can be 1358 01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:47,360 Speaker 1: quite difficult. But all I'm feeling is a sense of 1359 01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:50,120 Speaker 1: like more compassion in my heart, like overall, like I'm 1360 01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:52,000 Speaker 1: walking away from this interview going I actually need to 1361 01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,600 Speaker 1: be more compassionate with everyone, like you know, with animals 1362 01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:57,200 Speaker 1: of course, but the way you've been showing this with 1363 01:02:57,240 --> 01:02:58,680 Speaker 1: me at least, I just want people to know who 1364 01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:01,640 Speaker 1: are listening that's sitting across from the table from Ed. 1365 01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:08,000 Speaker 1: All I'm feeling is the aura and energy of compassion, love, kindness, 1366 01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:11,200 Speaker 1: and empathy is what I'm feeling from your heart and voice, 1367 01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:13,160 Speaker 1: And so anyone who's not been in the room with 1368 01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:16,240 Speaker 1: me and just hearing a conversation without the emotion that 1369 01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:18,479 Speaker 1: you feel when you're with someone, I just want everyone 1370 01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,640 Speaker 1: who's listening or watching to know that. And so I'm 1371 01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:22,960 Speaker 1: walking away wanting to be more of all of that 1372 01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:25,480 Speaker 1: in my life as a whole, definitely. And if that's 1373 01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:27,880 Speaker 1: all you take away from this episode, then I hope 1374 01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:31,320 Speaker 1: that that's the beginning of your journey to loving all 1375 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:35,200 Speaker 1: animals and life. So thank you, thank you so much 1376 01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:36,960 Speaker 1: for joining us. Everyone, I want to make sure that 1377 01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,960 Speaker 1: you tag me and Ed on Instagram, on Twitter, or 1378 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:42,200 Speaker 1: on whatever platform you're using. So that we can see 1379 01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:45,120 Speaker 1: what you're taking away. Maybe you're going to try going vegan, 1380 01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:48,560 Speaker 1: maybe you're going to try change one day in your life. 1381 01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:50,800 Speaker 1: Whatever you're going to do from this podcast, I want 1382 01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:52,600 Speaker 1: you to let me and Ed know because we want 1383 01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:55,240 Speaker 1: to see how these words, how what Ed is shared. 1384 01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,160 Speaker 1: Of course his book, this is vegan propaganda. For those 1385 01:03:58,200 --> 01:03:59,640 Speaker 1: of you that are going to go and grab a 1386 01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:02,360 Speaker 1: cop You're going to have all the education and insight 1387 01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,760 Speaker 1: at your fingertips. Please do tag us. I love seeing 1388 01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:08,160 Speaker 1: what resonates and connects with you. This has been a 1389 01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:11,720 Speaker 1: very special episode in that we've been sharing something that 1390 01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:15,040 Speaker 1: I truly believe could be life changing. Is out there, 1391 01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:18,360 Speaker 1: is available as accessible, and I hope that some of 1392 01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:19,960 Speaker 1: you are going to give it a go. So thank 1393 01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:22,360 Speaker 1: you for joining in. Big thank you to Ed. Go 1394 01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,680 Speaker 1: and follow earthling Ed on Instagram and YouTube and all 1395 01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:29,160 Speaker 1: social media platforms wherever Ed is, and go and grab 1396 01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:31,840 Speaker 1: a copy of the book. This is vegan propaganda. So 1397 01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:34,400 Speaker 1: thank you so much. Thank you appreciate it.