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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing.

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Speaker 1: We learn one car in particular, taking center stage in

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Speaker 1: the FBI's analysis, a white vehicle seen in the maze

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Speaker 1: of streets surrounding Nancy's home. What is the latest tonight?

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Speaker 1: We're also learning that this vacant home may have been

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Speaker 1: used as a staging area for the kidnapper. Does that

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Speaker 1: explain why we don't see the kidnapper entering or exiting

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Speaker 1: from a vehicle. He's in no rush. The dog behind

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Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's home goes crazy at two am. Is it

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Speaker 1: because he didn't need a car because he has a

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Speaker 1: staging area near Nancy's home in her very own neighborhood. Also,

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Speaker 1: the FBI focusing on pharmaceutical records that are similar to

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Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's medication. All of this happening while we learn

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Speaker 1: that the casting attempts failed trying to get footprints or

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Speaker 1: tracks outside the home. The FBI now apparently looking at

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Speaker 1: electro static lift prints from inside the home. And what

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Speaker 1: is Nano's doing during all of this? He's going to

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Speaker 1: the gym. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. One

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Speaker 1: vehicle in particular is taking center stage with the FBI

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Speaker 1: search for Nancy Guthrie. It is a white vehicle straight

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Speaker 1: out to Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave mac

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Speaker 1: It's curious. The Via Entrata is like a maze of

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Speaker 1: streets and intersections surrounding it's part of that anyway, surrounding

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Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's home. What can you tell me about Pma

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Speaker 1: County Sheriffs requesting now surveillance footage, anything neighbors may have

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Speaker 1: of a vehicle. Tell me what you know.

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Speaker 2: Well, the law enforcement, we're talking the FBI and the

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Speaker 2: Sheriff's department asking all of the homes in the area,

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Speaker 2: if they have a camera pointed towards the street, to

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Speaker 2: go back and get that video for the law enforcement

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Speaker 2: because they don't want it being recorded over You're showing

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Speaker 2: right there, at two two thirty eight in the morning,

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Speaker 2: we've got a car within two and a half miles

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Speaker 2: of Nancy Guthrie's home seen on ring camera. This is

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Speaker 2: a shocker because when the Sheriff's department first put up

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Speaker 2: their ring of area, they were confident in was about

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Speaker 2: two miles. This is at two and a half miles,

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Speaker 2: so they missed it. Now, this is becoming a huge

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Speaker 2: part of the investigation as law enforcement is trying to

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Speaker 2: identify what type of vehicle it is and anything else

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Speaker 2: they can find. So they're looking for any vehicles traveling

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Speaker 2: along these roads that match up with this vehicle, trying

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Speaker 2: to identify it Nancy, and they're looking for every camera

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Speaker 2: they can find.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go straight out to Scott Iiker joining us,

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Speaker 1: a founding member of the FBI's By the way, this

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Speaker 1: video is from our friends at Fox News, the FBI

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Speaker 1: Cellular Analysis Survey team, but also homicide investigator in Norfolk

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Speaker 1: Police has worked so many missing people cases he can't

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Speaker 1: count them now at Precision Cellular Analysis. Scott Iiker, speaking

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Speaker 1: of the car, I think it's very telling that Pema

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Speaker 1: County Sheriffs is asking now for footage of vehicles in

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Speaker 1: the neighborhood and they ask for footage about a car

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Speaker 1: the morning ten a m. The morning of the kidnap

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Speaker 1: that would have been January thirty one.

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Speaker 3: What do you think, Well, this is the normal process

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Speaker 3: of the investigation like this, you have breakout groups that

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Speaker 3: are looking at different sections of the investigation. I'm sure

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Speaker 3: there's one group of investigators that are saying, Okay, we're

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Speaker 3: going to concentrate on trying to identify this car scene

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Speaker 3: going by the cactuses, and we got to start working

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Speaker 3: on that. So they'll follow that path. They'll go out

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Speaker 3: and talk to the neighbors. They'll help the neighbors access

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Speaker 3: their cameras, because as we know, some people are not

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Speaker 3: very good at accessing their film and their footage. They'll

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Speaker 3: go to the businesses and they're going to keep asking

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Speaker 3: the public to provide anything they have that might help

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Speaker 3: identify vehicles that were in the area at that time.

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Speaker 3: We're doing the same thing with the cell phones, right

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Speaker 3: We're following cell phones. Hopefully we see a cell phone

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Speaker 3: follow that same track as that car went from Nancy's

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Speaker 3: neighborhood to that main street. Things like that will help

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Speaker 3: us clue and piece it together.

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Speaker 1: You know that significant. Right out to Joe Scott Morgan

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Speaker 1: joining US Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood

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Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of the hitting

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Speaker 1: new series Body Bags. With Joseph Scott Morgan, we're showing

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Speaker 1: you some photos from our friends at Fox, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: he just brought up something really interesting. Well, among many

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Speaker 1: things tonight focus on a vehicle Joe Scott at ten

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Speaker 1: a M ten a m jan thirty one, January thirty one,

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Speaker 1: which tells me they believe the perp was in broad

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Speaker 1: daylight January thirty one. And before I lose the thought,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, what I could just said, remember in Alex

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Speaker 1: Murdogg's trial that you and I investigated ourselves. We see

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Speaker 1: Murdog's huge hank and suv traveling the night of the

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Speaker 1: murders when he murdered Paul and Maggie, his wife and son,

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Speaker 1: with his cell phone scratching off from the scene, and

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Speaker 1: he had Maggie's cell phone with him the info the

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Speaker 1: black box, so to speak, inside his suv shows him

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Speaker 1: stopping the car, lowering the passenger side window. That is

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Speaker 1: where we find Maggie's cell phone thrown out the window

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Speaker 1: right there. So very often we see cell phones traveling

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Speaker 1: with a car. And my point is that if we

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Speaker 1: get a cell phone traveling with the car at ten

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Speaker 1: am January thirty one, now we've got a cell number,

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Speaker 1: because even if the perp turned off a sell the

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Speaker 1: night of the kidnapping. I guarantee you he didn't turn

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Speaker 1: it off the morning of the kidnapping ten am.

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Speaker 4: See where I'm going, Yeah, yeah, why would you? And again,

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Speaker 4: this is another one of these benchmarks relative to benchmarking

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Speaker 4: that immediate point in time. And this goes back to

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Speaker 4: a theory that I've held on and other people have

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Speaker 4: held on two over the time, and that's the idea

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Speaker 4: of casing this area, just going back and making sure

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Speaker 4: that everything is as they perceive it to be, maybe

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Speaker 4: taking one last glance at the area before they go

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Speaker 4: in to do whatever it is that they're going to do,

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Speaker 4: and assessing the area. I think that this is very

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Speaker 4: very critical piece of information, Nancy, because if they can

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Speaker 4: tie that back to a suspect here, this is going

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Speaker 4: to be critical moving forward with the case.

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Speaker 1: Specifically, on day one, Bryan Fitzgibbons joining us USP, a

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Speaker 1: nationwide security let me just say again, leading a team

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Speaker 1: of investigators that do nothing but find missing people and

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Speaker 1: extract them. Former Marine Iraqi war Ves Gibbons. Day one,

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Speaker 1: you and I said, Carr car, you've got Brian Coburger

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Speaker 1: cracked with a car. Yes, we hear about the DNA analysis,

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Speaker 1: which was amazing. But it all started with a clerk

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Speaker 1: at a gas station seeing his white Ilauncha speeding by

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Speaker 1: around four a m. The morning of the murders, right,

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Speaker 1: and she gave that to police, and the alarm went

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Speaker 1: out to all law enforcement, including campus police, about a

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Speaker 1: white Elantra. A campus cop at WSU Washington State University says, oh,

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Speaker 1: who's registered on campus for a parking spot with a

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Speaker 1: white Elantra. Oh, Brian Coburger. That's where his name came

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Speaker 1: from because of his car. And then I like to

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Speaker 1: use the case of glam yoga instructor Caitlin Armstrong. She

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Speaker 1: murdered her love rival, a world class dirt bike champion,

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Speaker 1: because of over a man really, and her SUV is

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Speaker 1: seen circling and circling and circling the murder, saying, and

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Speaker 1: then of course there's Molly Tibbets. She goes out for

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Speaker 1: a jog after studying all afternoon and over and there

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Speaker 1: she is. There's Molly, and this guy keeps approaching her

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Speaker 1: because of distinctive markings on his vehicle. He's tracked through

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Speaker 1: a vehicle. Day one, Fitzgibbons, we said, car and I'm

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Speaker 1: not giving you or myself a pal on the back.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, if this is the car, if this is

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Speaker 1: the car at ten am Jan thirty one, that they're

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Speaker 1: interested in jackpot? Maybe yeah.

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Speaker 5: And you know, hey, you can go to great lengths

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Speaker 5: to hide a cell phone. You could not take it.

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Speaker 5: You could put it in a airplane mode, it could

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Speaker 5: be in a Faraday bag to try to keep Scott

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Speaker 5: Aiker from finding you. But you can't hide a car.

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Speaker 5: You can't hide a vehicle. So the hope is that

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Speaker 5: if we can identify this vehicle and start to piece

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Speaker 5: together some of the video evidence from the surrounding area.

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Speaker 5: And you know, experts on this case have gone to

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Speaker 5: great lengths, including Douglas McGregor, who's been on this show,

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Speaker 5: to map out the potential avenues of egress from Missus

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Speaker 5: Guthrie's home. So that's got to be the focus, is

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Speaker 5: getting the description of that vehicle and trying to find

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Speaker 5: some video evidence of it to tie it back to him.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Scott Iker, how do you trace a car once

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Speaker 1: we have the picture? If we get the picture at

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Speaker 1: ten am, they've got to have a reason that they're

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Speaker 1: saying ten am the morning of the kidnap Jan thirty one,

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Speaker 1: she's kidnapped. Go through the clock the next morning around

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Speaker 1: two am. Why are they saying ten a m. Jan

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Speaker 1: thirty one. They've got to have a reason for saying that.

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Speaker 1: Was there an eye witness? Remember early on a neighbor

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Speaker 1: said they had seen a strange car that didn't belong

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Speaker 1: to anybody sitting out on the street for an extended

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Speaker 1: period of time near Nancy's sum Is it that car

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Speaker 1: or we finally tying something together tonight. So let's just

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Speaker 1: pretend argument say it is the car. They've got a time,

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Speaker 1: they have a time, they must know about a car.

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Speaker 1: So how do we track it?

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Speaker 6: Well, there are several different ways.

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Speaker 3: One, we've talked about the videos, and they've got to

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Speaker 3: really push that to get that from all the neighbors,

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Speaker 3: all the businesses. Two is looking at the cell phones

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Speaker 3: embedded in cars. If it's a newer type vehicle, we

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Speaker 3: can narrow that down through the tower dumps of that area,

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Speaker 3: identifying the type of cars that are there. Hopefully it'll

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Speaker 3: match the types of cars, and then we can track

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Speaker 3: those cars and the cell phones that are traveling with

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Speaker 3: those cars at those specific times. So that would help

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Speaker 3: us get to those points of hopefully identifying who that

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Speaker 3: is and what kind of car there is, and then

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Speaker 3: where they went to after they were in the area

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Speaker 3: around the time of the reception.

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Speaker 1: So here's another question out to you, Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 1: Can they trace the car's movements? Which way was it going?

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Speaker 1: Does it match potentially one of the cars caught two

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Speaker 1: point five miles away the night of the kidnapping that

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Speaker 1: we see on video. Is it one of those cars?

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Speaker 1: Can we connect that? Can we connect it to the

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Speaker 1: car that's been sitting out in the neighborhood surveiling. Can

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Speaker 1: we connect it to the car that was spotted at

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Speaker 1: a gas station seven to eleven type store that night?

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Speaker 1: I mean there's cars out the ying yang. A white

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Speaker 1: vehicle was spotted on ring cam seven minutes away from

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Speaker 1: Nancy's home. Are the pieces of the puzzle finally fitting

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Speaker 1: together regarding a vehicle because now we know, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: they're looking at a specific vehicle. We think it's a

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Speaker 1: white vehicle the morning she's taken. There's zeroing in on that,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, what else is your analysis?

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Speaker 4: Well, going to my esteem colleague, mister Iker, I think

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Speaker 4: that the most critical bit to this is trying to

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Speaker 4: get that videography from all these other locations and they

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Speaker 4: can kind of create what I would call a mosaic

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Speaker 4: of this imagery of the car moving past, moving forward,

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Speaker 4: going about. And also if they are able, because you

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Speaker 4: had mentioned earlier about the cell phone, if the scene

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Speaker 4: is pinging in there and they're capturing this, particularly in

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Speaker 4: the approximately ten am run that you're talking about, if

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Speaker 4: they can zero that in, then you've got two points

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Speaker 4: of connectivity at that moment in time. Where is this

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Speaker 4: scene moving to? Can you see it moving in front

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Speaker 4: of other cameras and also out and about away from

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Speaker 4: this kind of as it's been described as maze in

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Speaker 4: this neighborhood. Is there anything out on the periphery they've

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Speaker 4: been able to piece together local businesses that is going

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Speaker 4: to match this up. I think that that's going to

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Speaker 4: be critical. I'm very interested still with this area that

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Speaker 4: is adjacent to the construction area that was there and

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Speaker 4: this unoccupied home. I want to know has that car

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Speaker 4: ever settled there, has it stopped, has it paused? Because

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Speaker 4: you're looking at a couple of locations where it could

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Speaker 4: have paused. So where is the interest here, you know,

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Speaker 4: going back to this idea of the profile of the individual,

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Speaker 4: where they vested time wise, where they vested location wise,

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Speaker 4: And that's that's going to be a big, big part

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Speaker 4: of this thread, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: Dave mac specifically, we understand the FEDS are interested in

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Speaker 1: vehicles along Via in Trota. Where is Via in Trota?

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Speaker 1: What is it?

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Speaker 2: It's the main residential road entering the neighborhood where Nancy

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Speaker 2: Guthrie lives. It is referred to as amaze like road.

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Speaker 2: It serves as the main residential road into the Catalina

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Speaker 2: Foothills neighborhood. And you mentioned this earlier. It forms part

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Speaker 2: of a maze like residential area that is poorly lit

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Speaker 2: at night that comes into play. You have to know

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Speaker 2: the roads and where you're going at night to be

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Speaker 2: able to function in this area along Via Intrada.

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Speaker 1: So once we have a date, once we have a

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Speaker 1: time ten am, we can go from there. And Scott Eiker,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't it be possible if we're going with a white

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Speaker 1: car ten am J thirty one to try. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you would call the potus Dulo's case, Jennifer Dulo's Connecticut

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Speaker 1: mom of five body never found the law enforcement there

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Speaker 1: in Connecticut put together an incredible video montage from businesses, homes.

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Speaker 1: Even at one point a public bus opened up and

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Speaker 1: you see the perp driving by tracking his movements. I've

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Speaker 1: got a time, I've got a potential vehicle, I've got

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Speaker 1: a street. Isn't it possible now to look at the cams,

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Speaker 1: look at Wi Fi along the routes and see where

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Speaker 1: the car went? I know it's going to be difficult,

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Speaker 1: but is it possible?

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Speaker 3: It is difficult, and there's a lot of different databases

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Speaker 3: that we can pull from. One is the videos from

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Speaker 3: the area, as you mentioned, the choke points coming from

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Speaker 3: that point. Where would a car have to go from

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Speaker 3: that point to get to other areas? The main avenues,

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Speaker 3: the stoplights, the business cameras, is all important stuff. But

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Speaker 3: when we look at the cellular aspect of it, we

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Speaker 3: can look at Google, we can look at Facebook, we

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Speaker 3: can look at just tower dumps, same stuff. We do

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Speaker 3: another tower dump into that area because it's going to

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Speaker 3: be possibly different towers that are used around Miscuthriy's residents,

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Speaker 3: and we see, all right, is that that those devices

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Speaker 3: in that tower dump also in Nancy Guthrie's area, tower dump.

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Speaker 3: So now we put that same in two important areas.

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Speaker 3: That helps us a lot to do and narrow down

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Speaker 3: the amount of different devices that we have to sort

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Speaker 3: through to figure out which ones were.

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Speaker 1: Important crime stores with Nancy Grace. Also tonight, a vacant

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Speaker 1: home used as a staging area. Dave Matt What.

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Speaker 2: Does that mean, you know, Nancy, It is a home

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Speaker 2: that sits off the backyard of Nancy Guthrie's home. It's vacant,

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Speaker 2: and you mentioned it earlier. The purp walks up to

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Speaker 2: the front door. We don't see a car dropping them off.

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Speaker 2: We don't see a car picking them up in the

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Speaker 2: neighborhood right there. But if they were staging, meaning if

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Speaker 2: the perpetrators were in i that is vacant, they could

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Speaker 2: be in that house for days. They could be watching

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Speaker 2: the comings and goings at Nancy Guthrie's home, and when

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Speaker 2: they decide it's time to go, walk across the backyard area.

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Speaker 2: Now this is at the time we're talking two to

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Speaker 2: two thirty in the morning, when Nancy Guthrie's neighbor facing

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Speaker 2: her backyard, facing Nancy Guthrie's backyard, the dog went crazy

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Speaker 2: and the two video cameras facing the backyard of Nancy

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Speaker 2: Guthrie went silently, could not connect to Wi Fi. The

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Speaker 2: vacant home is near there, so if it's used by

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Speaker 2: the perpetrators as a place to make their plan to stage,

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Speaker 2: well there you go. You've got a clear shot walking

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Speaker 2: into Nancy Guthrie's home and we've got a dog going crazy.

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Speaker 1: This aerial v from our friends at twelve knees and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to ask a control room to play showing

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Speaker 1: the aerial view of the FEDS coming through her side entrance,

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Speaker 1: coming from this same direction, going past the pool and

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Speaker 1: actually taking photos of the gate the pool gate. Remember this,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, after Nana's said, oh there's nothing to

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Speaker 1: see here. We see the Feds coming through that side area.

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Speaker 1: They're going through the pool area and they're gonna pause

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Speaker 1: and take photos when they go out the gate. This

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Speaker 1: would be consistent with the coming from a staging area

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Speaker 1: or parked elsewhere, coming through the backyard neighbors lawn, going

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Speaker 1: into Nancy Guffree's property and going past the pool and

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Speaker 1: coming through that gate. This is from our friends at

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Speaker 1: Fox News. But let's see the twelve video again. The

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Speaker 1: aerial video where would the vacant home be there, you

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Speaker 1: see the neighbor's house. Did he come around and go

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Speaker 1: through the pool area and down that side portion of

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Speaker 1: Nancy's home. This is from our friends at twelve News,

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Speaker 1: So to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, let's just go with

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Speaker 1: the theory. Have to pursue every avenue that a vacant

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Speaker 1: home was used as a staging area. What should they

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Speaker 1: be doing right now as far as processing the staging area, Well,

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Speaker 1: I hope.

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Speaker 4: That it's completely locked down and if they've got the

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Speaker 4: right personnel that are out there that could potentially process this.

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Speaker 4: Thinking about anybody that might be in dwelling and just

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Speaker 4: like Date said, just a moment ago where they hanging

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Speaker 4: out there for an extended period of time. And that's

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Speaker 4: key because the longer you hang out in a location

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Speaker 4: relative to say trace evidence as it applies to forensics,

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Speaker 4: the higher the probability is that you're going to leave

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Speaker 4: something behind, just like la Carte's principle. So if you're

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Speaker 4: in that space, whether it be footprints or whatever, the

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Speaker 4: case might be, maybe discarded wrappers, if you're surveilling an area,

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Speaker 4: things that you might not think of that we would

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Speaker 4: go in because we've got all the time in the

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Speaker 4: world as forensics folks to go in there and pick

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Speaker 4: that place apart. My biggest concern, Nancy, is that they

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Speaker 4: haven't gotten to this soon enough, because we've got a

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Speaker 4: lot of time that has elapsed. Has anything degraded in there,

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Speaker 4: has anything been rubbed up against and obliterated? All these

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Speaker 4: sorts of things. So this is a time critical area,

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Speaker 4: and given the proximity, I think that it's significant. I

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Speaker 4: hope that they're processing this accurately, looking for things like fingerprints, footprints,

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Speaker 4: anything that can tie back to perhaps Missus Guthrie's location,

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Speaker 4: maybe even that car that we are talking about. The

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Speaker 4: phone points of Ingress and Egress. You think about that

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Speaker 4: gate back there in the backside. Did they always take

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Speaker 4: care if they were surveilling the area to walk through

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Speaker 4: that gate? Did they touch it? Had they left anything behind?

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Speaker 4: So all of this stuff is still on the table,

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Speaker 4: my friend.

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Speaker 1: This could explain why we don't see a car that night,

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Speaker 1: why the porch guy approached on foot. Is a vacant

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Speaker 1: house behind Guthrie's home? Does it require the purp to

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Speaker 1: come through the yard where the dog barked? Is the

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Speaker 1: vacant home being processed for prints DNA evidence question? Were

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Speaker 1: people squatting there? Did they have a lease? Did they rent?

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Speaker 1: We see the fads walking the trail. Is this why

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Speaker 1: so many cases that I have covered and investigated and

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Speaker 1: prosecuted involved use of a vacant home, Scott, While I've

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Speaker 1: got you, We now know that the cast prints that

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Speaker 1: were attempted outdoors likely yielded nothing, probably because it was

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Speaker 1: a gravel walkway for any number of reasons. But there's

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Speaker 1: still hope of electrostatic lifts. What's that?

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Speaker 6: Okay?

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Speaker 4: So when you think about electrostatic lifts, we all know

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Speaker 4: about magnetism, right, We learned about that in physical science

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Speaker 4: back in junior high school. So negatives attract paused. So

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Speaker 4: what we do with electrostatic lift? You see an example

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Speaker 4: of one here that we did at Jack State. That's

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Speaker 4: a milar sheet. It's kind of like vinyl. You lay

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Speaker 4: it over a suspected area where you have taken on

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Speaker 4: an a blique light. You see how we're lighting that

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Speaker 4: kind of obliquely like that, and we try to raise

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Speaker 4: that print by electrostatic a charge. So you place the

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Speaker 4: milar sheet over it, you add an electrical charge. The

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Speaker 4: charge on the paper on the my lar is actually

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Speaker 4: negative and everything at the ground level is positive. So

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Speaker 4: what happens is this is lifted and captured and we

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Speaker 4: have that for you know, as long as we treat it,

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Speaker 4: you know, with respect the bit of evidence, so that

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Speaker 4: we don't ruin it. We can go back to the

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Speaker 4: lab and we can have a footprint expert that can

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Speaker 4: assess it. And you're going to look for all kinds

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Speaker 4: of little anomalies in there. And here's a thought. Here's

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Speaker 4: a thought as well, back to that vacant house. Okay,

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Speaker 4: are there any footprints over there that they could have

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Speaker 4: have actually assessed relative to electro magnetic lifts that could

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Speaker 4: be tied back to anything that they might find on

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Speaker 4: the floors inside of.

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Speaker 1: Her house if the scene wasn't destroyed by crime scene

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Speaker 1: investigator Scott Iiker. We're also learning that the FEDS are

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Speaker 1: searching for pharmaceutical records similar to meds used by Nancy Guthrie.

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Speaker 1: How do you do that? Clearly they're trying to find

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Speaker 1: someone filling prescriptions or getting meds for Nancy Guthrie. So

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Speaker 1: how do you go about finding that information?

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Speaker 3: Well, you got to first jump the hurdle of privacy

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Speaker 3: regarding medical records. That's going to be a tough one

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Speaker 3: to get past. One of the things that you think

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Speaker 3: about is that if they abducted Nancy and they wanted

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Speaker 3: to keep her alive, did they refill her prescription somehow? Okay,

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Speaker 3: maybe they didn't do that, But can we find other people,

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Speaker 3: newer people that just started the same type of prescriptions

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Speaker 3: that Nancy was on. So, I mean, that's an avenue

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Speaker 3: to go, but I think it's going to be hard.

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Speaker 3: It's not like you can do a tower dunpump prescriptions.

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Speaker 3: You're going to have to find a way to get

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Speaker 3: into the privacy aspect of getting people's medical histories.

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Speaker 1: Well, if there's a way, I guarantee the FEDS will

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Speaker 1: find it. Tonight, we're also learning the FEDS are expanding

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Speaker 1: their questioning to people that don't necessarily live in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: They are now questioning landscapers, construction workers, gardeners, you name it.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the pool crew that Nana is allowed to come

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Speaker 1: clean the pool after the kidnapping. Question to you, Dave

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Speaker 1: mac is it true that in the midst of all this,

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Speaker 1: with the FEDS doing the heavy lifting, Nana's is spending

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Speaker 1: quality time at the gym.

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Speaker 2: Nancy, he is under a microscope and it doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: to bother him in the least bit. Just to give

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Speaker 2: you an idea, he has gone to the four out

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Speaker 2: of five days. He's spending ninety plus minutes inside the gym.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, he's being followed by the media,

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Speaker 2: because again, this is a guy that's got to recall

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Speaker 2: out on him right now. He lives in an eight

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand dollars gaety community. His home is

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Speaker 2: a mini mansion. He's driving a fairly new Corvet convertible

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Speaker 2: and they follow him to the gym.

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Speaker 1: Joining us tonight, former FBI Special Agent, chief of the

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Speaker 1: FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, author of Sizing People Up,

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Speaker 1: a veteran FBI agent's manual for behavior prediction. He's got

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Speaker 1: a second book, Unbreakable Alliances, a spy recruiter's authoritative guide

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Speaker 1: to cultivating powerful and lasting connections. Robin Drake is joining us,

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Speaker 1: and Robin, you got me at former FBI Special Agent

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Speaker 1: and chief of the FBI counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program.

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Speaker 1: The books are just gravy. Thank you for being with us. Robin,

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Speaker 1: I want you to look at something that's come to

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Speaker 1: our attention, and that is the behavior of the porch

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Speaker 1: guy Robin Drake. He seems extremely casual and not at

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Speaker 1: all in a hurry on what we now know to

431
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: be January eleven. What do you make of it?

432
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 7: Yeah, So, anytime we're doing behavioral analysis, what we really

433
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 7: want to do is put ourselves in their shoes to

434
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 7: the best of our ability, obviously because we're not broken

435
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 7: people like this, but we want to literally think about

436
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 7: what they're doing, what they're seeing, and what their motive

437
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 7: is for doing these things. What's the goal? And so

438
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 7: being so casual says he has reps. A lot of

439
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 7: people have said he's done this before. It's not unusual

440
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 7: for him because he's so casual about it. But also,

441
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 7: what do people do? I mean, all of Ausden listening

442
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 7: and tune in can actually think of this. When we

443
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 7: show up on someone's doorstep and they have a ring

444
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 7: camera or nest cam or something, what do we typically hear.

445
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 7: We hear the alarm, we hear the thing going off

446
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 7: inside and so and up to eighty percent of home invasions,

447
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 7: whether targeting an individual or targeting property inside, they're doing

448
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 7: scouting and reconnaissance, testing security systems, testing for things in

449
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 7: the area, and also lingering.

450
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: On the doorstep.

451
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 7: A large number of elderly people when they live at

452
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 7: home alone and they're trying to get back in the house,

453
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 7: they will hide and secrete ways to get in, keys

454
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 7: and bushes, keys under things, and so this individual most

455
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 7: likely definitely was scouting ahead of time and most likely

456
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 7: testing a security system and seeing who responds, how long

457
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 7: it takes, and what their reaction will be.

458
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: Now we're also showing fab one the early morning hours

459
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: when Nancy was kidnapped January eleven says a lot to me.

460
00:28:53,600 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: You mentioned casual, calm, lingering on the doorstep. He's not

461
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: at all concerned about being caught. He seems to know

462
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: what he's doing. You stated that at the get go

463
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: it was surmised he had taken part in this kind

464
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: of behavior before in general. But this is telling me, Robin,

465
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: that he has been on her porch before, he has

466
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: seen her home before. He's not worried. I think of here,

467
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: here's a great example, Robin Drake, John Binna Ramsey. That's

468
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: someone everyone can recall. The culprit was not worried at all.

469
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: About getting caught. The culprit took their time to kick

470
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: back in the family home and write about a three

471
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: page ransom note and then go I like it. I'm

472
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: going to sit right here and write another one, not

473
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: at all concerned they're going to be caught or apprehended.

474
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: Why So, this guy's behavior, he's just like standing there

475
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: looking at the front door. We never see him and

476
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: on either day run to the street, sneak up. Nothing

477
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: like that is telling me he's been here and cased

478
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: her home many times before.

479
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:21,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, I totally agree.

480
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 7: Either whether it was in daytime because he was part

481
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 7: of some work crew or maintenance crew, or even just

482
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 7: casually in a neighborhood at another neighbor's house, or whether

483
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 7: this was not his first time on her front step

484
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 7: testing this location so that casualness. Either that or his

485
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 7: brain is completely disengaging, he's completely compartmentalization because you know,

486
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 7: you've got to take in all the potentialities. But yeah,

487
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 7: I'm with you. I think he's been here before in

488
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 7: some capacity, either daylight or nighttime.

489
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,719
Speaker 1: What is it about his demeanor? I mean, you're the

490
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: FBI specialist in behavioral analysis, Robin Drake, what is it

491
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: about his behavior that tells you this ain't his first

492
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: I'm at the rodeo.

493
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 7: Nothing startles him. If you just look at the fluidity

494
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 7: of his movement, there's no change in the tempo. There's

495
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 7: no change in absolutely anything. And so think about this,

496
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 7: Like we just said, if he heard an internal doorbell

497
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 7: going off and alarm, a chime or something, you would

498
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 7: have seen a pause. You would have seen a startle.

499
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 7: If there's someone out in the driveway, if there's something

500
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 7: else going on, there would have been a pause. And also,

501
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 7: if this was his first time at this door, there'd

502
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 7: be apprehension, there'd be pauses, there'd be looking around, there'd

503
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 7: be scoping things out. He seemed very fluid in all

504
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 7: his motions and everything he was executing, even when bowing

505
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 7: down to get a branch, which was like the dumbest

506
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 7: looking thing I've ever seen. But he just seemed on mission,

507
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 7: very very methodical too. So this is actually planned out.

508
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: Okay, Robin Drake, here is the leap. Let's follow through

509
00:31:53,520 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: your reasoning to its logical conclusion. What can I learned?

510
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: What can I prove from what you're telling me? Who

511
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: is he?

512
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 7: So he's someone that I believe is at least one

513
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 7: degree of separation from Nancy in some capacity of whatsoever.

514
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 7: The other thing that I think that law enforcement's doing,

515
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 7: based on these observations of his fluidity in this environment,

516
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 7: is that go to the other houses that I'm sure

517
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 7: they're doing this canvassing other houses, and I would do

518
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 7: it within a one to three hundred mile radius of

519
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 7: this house of this dwelling, because other ring camps should

520
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 7: have picked up on this, because if he's done this before,

521
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 7: it's going to be on someone else's ring cam, nestcam,

522
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 7: or something like that. People need to check. When you

523
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 7: wake up in the morning, you should be checking those

524
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 7: things to see what happened the night before, because those

525
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 7: are going to be the other leads. And that's how

526
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 7: they're piecing these data points together behind the scenes that

527
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 7: we're not seeing right now. And again, going and going,

528
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 7: he is definitely targeting something or someone in that house.

529
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 7: It is targeted. Well, what that is is what we

530
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 7: don't know. I'm just analyzing the sheriffs for all the

531
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 7: controversies going around. He's been saying lot of things and

532
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 7: the last thing he says that people need to be

533
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 7: on the lookout and aware, believe it or not. You

534
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 7: mentioned Ramsey as well as you know, if you want

535
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 7: to even look at Elizabeth Smart. When the sheriffs are

536
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 7: saying people need to be on the lookout, they were

537
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 7: actually using different language than he was when being on

538
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 7: the look at for things. He was actually using language

539
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 7: of a targeted burglary, typically not a home, not a

540
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 7: home invasion for abduction. So it's just interesting. Again, he

541
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 7: could be way off on the things he's saying, as

542
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 7: he has been sometimes, but it's an interesting tell.

543
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: Robin Drake, you are mentioning that this suggests the purp

544
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: has broken in or home invaded before. What I'm asking

545
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: you now, a more refined question is what does his

546
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: behavior tell you as it relates to Nancy Guthrie, not

547
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: other instances, maybe three hundred miles away. But is this

548
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: a neighbor, is this a day laborer? Is it somebody

549
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: off that construction crew? They're not in a hurry. Does

550
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: this suggest to you it's possible that vacant home was

551
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: used as a staging area. He doesn't need a car

552
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: parked out in front, he doesn't need to jump in

553
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: with the wingman the getaway driver, because he's gonna walk

554
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: through that backyard. We don't see him walking up the front,

555
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: So where did he come from? Did he walk through

556
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: that backyard or backstore neighbor where the dog went crazy

557
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: around two am? Where is the vacant home? Is that

558
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: why he's not in a hurry. He doesn't have to

559
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: run into a waiting car. He can go right across

560
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: the street and through the backyard. What do you make

561
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: of that?

562
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, I definitely think that's a possibility, and that new

563
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 7: evidence and ideas being out there is definitely something they

564
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,720
Speaker 7: must look at. I know it's challenging that environment because

565
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 7: the hard pack ground and the nature of the desert,

566
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 7: and I definitely, as we've been saying, there's some sort

567
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 7: of connection, a personal maybe not personal with Nancy yourself,

568
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 7: but personal with the dwell in itself that he's been

569
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 7: there without having that need to flee, and because there's

570
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 7: no panic here, and that's what we're not seeing. We're

571
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 7: not seeing any sort of panic or rushed movement. And

572
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 7: it's just very telling.

573
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie

574
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: missing this As we learn that construction site dumps are

575
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: being searched for what we also learn more about the

576
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 1: process that nanos in the FBI is employing to get

577
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: a DNA match. Is it possible? Also tonight, careful analysis

578
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: of blood on Nancy Guthrie's porch is telling us a

579
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: very different story. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is

580
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

581
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: P MC County Sheriffs is asking now for footage of

582
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: vehicles in the neighborhood, a white vehicle seen in the

583
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: maze of streets surrounding Nancy's.

584
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 4: Home, because if they can tie that back to a

585
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 4: suspect here, this is going to be critical moving forward

586
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 4: with the case, specifically.

587
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 8: To whoever has her or knows where she is. But

588
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 8: it's never too late, and you're not lost or alone,

589
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 8: and it is never too late to do the right thing.

590
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 8: And we are here. We believe, and we believe in

591
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 8: the essential goodness of every human being.

592
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: Straight out to Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter, we

593
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 1: know that the fans are now trying to question work

594
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: crews on a construction site, one in particular, and maybe

595
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: more in Nancy Guthrie's neighborhood. We now know that dump

596
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: sites used by construction crews are being searched. What do

597
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: you know? What can you tell me?

598
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,439
Speaker 2: We know that the investigation has really gotten into these

599
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 2: construction sites Nancy to identify all personnel, including daily contractors

600
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 2: who have come in. They're trying to identify not just people,

601
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 2: but you wouldn't mentioned the trash. They're trying to determine

602
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 2: where trash is being taken. Where are the dump sites

603
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 2: for these individual homes that are being under construction. Is

604
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: there one place in particular that it's being taken or

605
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 2: are there multiple? They're identifying places that they can look

606
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 2: into dump sites from the construction sites.

607
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: Okay, that is a very very difficult task. I have

608
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 1: worked on dump site searches. You have to break it

609
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,399
Speaker 1: down into grid searches. It's really really hard to do

610
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: with me. Professor Forensic Sjacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan,

611
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star

612
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: of a hit podcast Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan, but

613
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: more important, death investigator with over ten thousand death inquiries

614
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: under his belt. A dump site grid search. I'm not

615
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: saying we're looking for Nancy Guthrie's body that's not what

616
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: I'm saying. I think they're looking for something else. How

617
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 1: do you go about a grid search if they are

618
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: looking at construction crew sites?

619
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 4: Okay, understand this when you're talking about searching any kind

620
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 4: of landfill, all right, And it all works on the

621
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 4: same principle, whether it's household debris or whether it is construction.

622
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 4: People just don't go in there and randomly dump stuff.

623
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 4: They do have the thing broken up into grids and Nancy,

624
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 4: here's something else. And this is always a clue that

625
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 4: we look for when we're searching these kinds of locations.

626
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 4: Did you know that those grids have specific dates like

627
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 4: when these things would have been picked up where they

628
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 4: were deposited, Because you cannot continue to deposit things in

629
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 4: the same location over and over again. It has to

630
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 4: be it has to be organized in order to facilitate this.

631
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 4: The one difficult part that I have always found in

632
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 4: any of these things I've ever searched is that you

633
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 4: have equipment that runs over over the stuff to kind

634
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 4: of pack it down, and that creates an absolute nightmare

635
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 4: for investigators when they go out there to begin to search.

636
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 1: Well, there's all sorts of issues with a construction site search.

637
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 1: I'm curious about what they could be looking for. When

638
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: you hear a search of a dump or a landfill,

639
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: you immediately think they're looking for a body. That is

640
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: not necessarily true. Joe's God, no it's not.

641
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 4: And you know, listen, if somebody has been involved in

642
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 4: some kind of nefarious activity and they have one of

643
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 4: these big dumpsters, all right that you see at construction sites,

644
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 4: and they're putting things in there specifically, and look, it

645
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 4: could be biological material, something organic that's going to break down.

646
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 4: That's one of the problems that you run into with

647
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 4: these sites is because this is an aerobic environment, which

648
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 4: means it's oxygenated, and that means that anything that's in

649
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 4: there that is organic breaks down very very quickly, and

650
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 4: it compromises evidence. But if there's other things, say, for instance,

651
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 4: if there's any kind of tools, any bits of wood

652
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 4: that may have been associated with something that was involved

653
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 4: in a crime, that's going to be there as way

654
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 4: there as well. And here's one of the problems that

655
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 4: you run into. It's something called co mingling. So you

656
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 4: get evidence that's kind of tied up together, and it

657
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 4: can come from other sites because on the day that

658
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 4: a specific grid has stuff dumped from location A and

659
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 4: B and C. You're confined to that spot, but that

660
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 4: stuff gets co mingled, mashed down and kind of turned around.

661
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 1: Joining us in Ullstar Panel in addition to Joseph Scott

662
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: Morgan joining US from Jacksonville State University. Brian Fitzgibbons is

663
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,479
Speaker 1: with us Director Operations USPA Nationwide Security, leading a team

664
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: of experts to find missing people around the world. Former

665
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: Marine Iraqi Warvette now at USPA Nationwide Security. The search

666
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: of landfills. It's horrible, very often the searchers have to

667
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: use hazmat outfits. They can be out there in the sun, sweating, sweltering,

668
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: and those as matt outfits. What could they be searching for?

669
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons Brian I say I don't

670
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,959
Speaker 1: think it's a search for her body is because we've

671
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 1: heard nothing about the use of cadaver dogs.

672
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 6: Yes, spot on.

673
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 5: I believe here that they'd be searching for pieces of

674
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 5: any pieces of physical evidence that could have been removed

675
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,439
Speaker 5: from the scene. And what's important to remember about these

676
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 5: landfill searches is that authorities will have a very good

677
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 5: idea from the landfill on where this trash was deposited

678
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 5: based on a specific timeline. So as they're going around

679
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 5: looking at these contractor bins, they're going to have to

680
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 5: research that differently than residential service. So they're going to find,

681
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 5: you know, what contractors had large trash receptacles in the area,

682
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 5: what the schedule was for pickup where they were bringing.

683
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:58,720
Speaker 6: Them, and that could vary.

684
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 5: It may not be the same location the same transfer

685
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 5: centers that the residential trash.

686
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 6: Would be going.

687
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 1: Dave mac Another theory emerging and I just want to

688
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: bat this down immediately, that Nancy Guthrie is missing because

689
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: Savannah Guthrie had a stalker. Okay, so what is the

690
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 1: report on Savannah Guthrie's stalker? Did she have a stalker?

691
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: What do we know?

692
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: No, there is no confirmed idea that Savannah Guthrie has

693
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 2: or had a stalker. This is another part of the

694
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 2: armchair detectives that are prevalent when a main story like

695
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 2: this goes out and people try to find a working

696
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,399
Speaker 2: idea of how it could be solved and what could

697
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 2: have been the motive. But no, this is not something

698
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 2: that has been brought about by legitimate investigation.

699
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: Okay, the question is being banded about out. Could Nancy

700
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: Guthrie have been targeted by a Savannah Guthrie stalker? I

701
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: find that extremely fantastical. I want to go out to

702
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: Scott Iiker, founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team.

703
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 1: He was in robbery homicide over a decade in Norfolk, Virginia, PD.

704
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: He is now with Precision Cellular Analysis. Scott fantastical. No again,

705
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: my favorite phrase sounds like a fifth grade girl's novel.

706
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,879
Speaker 1: When you have a stalker, they go after you. They

707
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: don't find your eighty four year old grandma in the

708
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: middle of the desert and cart her away in the

709
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: middle of the night. That's not how stalkers operate. And

710
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,760
Speaker 1: in my mind, throwing out theories like this and calling

711
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: them into the nine one one tip line is wasting

712
00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: valuable time.

713
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 6: I agree that's wasting time to an extent.

714
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 3: You know, as we know stalker's they want to be

715
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 3: seen by the person they're stalking, right, They want the

716
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 3: attention by that person.

717
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 6: So in that.

718
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 3: Vein there might be an indication that hey, if I

719
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 3: mess with the family, I'll get the attention. But you

720
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 3: hardly ever see that happening. It's usually against the primary victim.

721
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,280
Speaker 3: You know in this case, if she had a stalker,

722
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 3: it would be Savannah.

723
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 6: If if we.

724
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 3: Had information, concrete information about a stalker, I'm sure we

725
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 3: would have heard about it by now.

726
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,959
Speaker 1: The idea that Savannah had a stalker that nobody knows

727
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: about and they carried through their twisted ideas and then

728
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: executed them upon her mother. Okay, Karen Stark joining us,

729
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,399
Speaker 1: you know her well, forensic psycho, just renown TV radio

730
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: trauma expert at Karenstalk dot com. That's Karen with the Sea.

731
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: You and I have had to deal with a lot

732
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: of stalkers with all of your patients, with cases that

733
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: I prosecuted with my own stalkers. This is not how

734
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 1: they operate, Karen Stark. Definitely not Nancy.

735
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 9: And it just doesn't make sense to me that there

736
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 9: would actually be a stalker who's after Savannah and somehow

737
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 9: they wind up with Nancy. And there have been so

738
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 9: many theories that have been thrown out that to me,

739
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,720
Speaker 9: this just looks like one more. Stalkers do not behave

740
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 9: like this. They follow the person that they're interested in,

741
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 9: and it's endless and difficult to catch them actually doing it.

742
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 9: But this is not that that kind of a case.

743
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 9: This is her mother. I really believe that whatever this

744
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 9: was about, it's about Nancy got Thrie, not Savannah.

745
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: Happening in the search for Nancy Guthrie as construction site

746
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: dumps are being reviewed, the stalker theory emerging. In addition

747
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: to all of that, A careful analysis of Nancy Guthrie's porch,

748
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: when you pull back and look at it, is very revealing.

749
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: Take a look at this, Joe Scott Morgan. The video

750
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: you're seeing now from our friends at Fox News gives

751
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: us a better look than just a few drops. At

752
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 1: the very beginning. You're seeing right now why a cast

753
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: mold was not possible with the walkway. But we're seeing

754
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: a longer stretch more information about the blood trail. What

755
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:51,919
Speaker 1: do you see, Joe Scott Morgan.

756
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 4: Well, I see what I would interpret is passive passive

757
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 4: blood deposition. And what that means is we're talking about

758
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 4: gravitation blood drop where it falls to the earth. You

759
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 4: don't have any projected blood. Okay, So with projected blood,

760
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 4: you'll see these little tails that come off of the

761
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,399
Speaker 4: actual blood droplet itself as it's flying through the air,

762
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 4: and it gives you an idea of direction, Nancy, this

763
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 4: is something. These blood droplets that you're seeing here are

764
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 4: something that probably have fallen from a reasonable height, maybe

765
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,919
Speaker 4: in the three foot range, and they're dropping straight down

766
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 4: and impacting the ground. Do you see this area right

767
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 4: here that we're looking at right now with this walkway,

768
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 4: those blood droplets appear very uneven. Those can be easily misinterpreted. Well,

769
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,760
Speaker 4: the reason they're uneven is because that's not a smooth surface.

770
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 4: But you get up onto the stoop there and you've

771
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,760
Speaker 4: got this area where you have this kind of ceramic

772
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 4: tile where it's a very kind of even surface. There's

773
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 4: a lot to be interpreted here. So we know that

774
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 4: that's her blood. They've commented on that. So what would

775
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,919
Speaker 4: have to happen is she must be moving all right,

776
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 4: or her body her person is being moved. Let me

777
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 4: rephrase that at at least a three foot height, and

778
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 4: this blood is free flowing through the air. That's what

779
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 4: we call gravitational drop, and it's deposited right there. This

780
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 4: is not like when we think about classic blood spatter.

781
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,720
Speaker 4: You know, you and I have talked extensively about things

782
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 4: like cast off and all these things. That's dynamic. That's

783
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 4: not what you're seeing here. This is not something that

784
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 4: has tremendous velocity behind it. This is something that is

785
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:38,720
Speaker 4: issuing forth from an injury. I still hold based upon

786
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 4: some of those blood droplets that I saw, particularly adjacent

787
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 4: to the doorway.

788
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: Oh, hold on, hold on, hold on, Joe Scott. Guys,

789
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: the video you were seeing was from Fox News. But

790
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 1: I want to put up the steel so our viewers

791
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 1: can see what Joe Scott is talking about, because as

792
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: you look at it, what he's saying makes a lot

793
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 1: of sense. The video doesn't really show it as well

794
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: as the still photo of that blood.

795
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 4: So as you see it right here, it's depositing in

796
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 4: kind of a linear fashion here, and you can't really

797
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 4: interpret which way movement is going. Are they moving toward

798
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 4: the door away from the door. All we know is

799
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 4: that there's blood deposition. Now, you can look at the

800
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 4: margins of it to say, okay, it never extended beyond

801
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,399
Speaker 4: about two or three feet in width, so you can

802
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 4: kind of superimpose a path over that if you will.

803
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,320
Speaker 4: But directionality is very hard to determine with this because

804
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 4: you don't have any indication of flight of the blood.

805
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 4: You know, that it's dropping straight down. Okay, and these

806
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,760
Speaker 4: don't really vary in height, Nancy. So the higher the blood,

807
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 4: the greater the deposition of blood or when that spherical

808
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 4: because blood people don't know this. Blood actually falls through

809
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 4: the air in a perfect sphere. Many people don't understand that,

810
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 4: and as it strikes that dynamicism of it kind of

811
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 4: spreads it out. Well, these are not spread like greatly.

812
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 4: Like if you're talking about blood dropping from I don't know,

813
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 4: a height of like ten feet, the droplets are going

814
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 4: to look different than that. That's why I'm saying this

815
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,720
Speaker 4: is within about a three foot range, maybe four feet.

816
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 4: It's dropping straight down. So what could happen? Is she

817
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 4: being carried at this point in time? And a lot

818
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 4: of people have talked about what she wrapped in anything.

819
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 4: I think that she's bleeding rather significantly here. But if

820
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 4: she was wrapped in anything.

821
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: New hold on, hold on, you're saying she's bleeding significantly.

822
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 1: And just recently another forensic scientist has thrown out the

823
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:39,720
Speaker 1: theory that she was quote it doesn't really sound scientific,

824
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 1: but I get what the expert is saying, was quote

825
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: bleeding pretty badly. Yeah, but earlier you had told me.

826
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: You thought this looked as if it were a nose

827
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: bleed and there's a little bit of aspiration on it

828
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: from the nose or the mouth.

829
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah.

830
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 4: And when you see the tiny little droplets contained in there,

831
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 4: there's one curl cluster shot that they have there, these

832
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 4: tiny little droplets that looks like called expiated blood because

833
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 4: you're expiating it, you know, think Travis Alexander. Okay, so

834
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 4: that's expiated blood. You don't see that in any of

835
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 4: these other droplets. That deposition that's like where we're looking at,

836
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 4: like the one o'clock position in that that's almost like

837
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 4: a sneeze or a cough or something, and then it's

838
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 4: moving away.

839
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 6: Nancy.

840
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 4: Do you see those little white areas in the larger droplet, Yeah?

841
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: I did.

842
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 4: That implies to me, Nancy, that this is a rated blood.

843
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 4: In other words, it's coming from the naso fairnecks area. Okay.

844
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:39,720
Speaker 4: So if you've got some kind of trauma to your nose,

845
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 4: your mouth, that sort of thing, it's it's got air

846
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 4: in it. It's just it's not like cutting over it

847
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 4: like a mist Yeah, it.

848
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: Kind of Okay. Hey, I want you to look at

849
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: something else, and I want ker and Karen Stark, Bryfhus Gibbons.

850
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 1: Everybody look at this. We've also got Tammy Ballard, DN expert.

851
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: Can I see that photo you were just showing you

852
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: see the disturbance of the gravel on top of the blood?

853
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: Scott Iker, let me go back to you, formerly with

854
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 1: the FBI, now a precision cellular analysis. I recalled distinctly

855
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 1: a case I prosecuted and investigated at the special behest

856
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 1: of the elected district Attorney. And I was very worried

857
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: because it was originally deemed a suicide and my boss

858
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 1: wanted me to make sure it wasn't a homicide. Well,

859
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: long story short, cher the victim was found naked. A

860
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: female was found naked in her bed. Number one statistics

861
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 1: say that doesn't happen that a female commits while naked.

862
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: Why don't know. I just know that it's true. She's

863
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: lying in bed right and head on pillow takes the gun. Bam.

864
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: That's the working theory. But with a blood expert like

865
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 1: Joe scott Man, who was awesome too, we put the

866
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: sheets up with light behind it, and we found blood

867
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 1: spatter under her pillow, which means her a lying there

868
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 1: like that and going bam could never have happened, right,

869
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 1: So it's not rocket science. You just have to know

870
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 1: what you're looking for. And this is telling me something

871
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what. Let's see the picture again, Icher

872
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: that the rocks in the gravel are distributed on top

873
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 1: of the blood. What does that mean? Are they helping

874
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: her out? Do they have their hands under her armpits

875
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,760
Speaker 1: and they're you know, hitting the gravel as they're walking

876
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,720
Speaker 1: and she's already come out, she's bleeding, and the gravel

877
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,240
Speaker 1: gets on top of the blood as they're futzing around

878
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: trying to hold her up. What do you read into it? Iker?

879
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 3: I agree with just Scott Morgan. This is definitely a

880
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,399
Speaker 3: pool of blood that looks like it was spit out

881
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 3: or you know, sneezed out. What I also see is

882
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 3: not only some of the rocks, is parts of that

883
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:18,919
Speaker 3: bush or the branch that is still at the front

884
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 3: of the door there, and that's stuck in some of

885
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 3: the blood droplets there. So you know, we know that

886
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 3: all kind of occurred around the same time he goes

887
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 3: to the front door, he gets the branch. How how

888
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 3: he got her out through that security door, we don't know,

889
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 3: but it appears to me that that's happening all at

890
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 3: the same time. That's why some of that branch is

891
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:45,760
Speaker 3: stuck into the blood area.

892
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 1: Okay, hold on just a moment. We're looking at the

893
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 1: gravel and that's the security door. We're going to talk

894
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 1: about in just a few moments. Guys. But that said, Scott,

895
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:57,839
Speaker 1: what do you make about the gravel being on top

896
00:55:57,920 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 1: of the blood.

897
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've had my own opinions about this. For me,

898
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 4: part of it goes to lack of security at the scene.

899
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,280
Speaker 4: You've got everybody in their brother walking up to this door,

900
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 4: and so anytime you do that, that's why we take

901
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 4: great care at crime scenes, Nancy, because you don't know

902
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 4: what you're going to be kicking about and not taking

903
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 4: your time. You're talking about people showing up at the door.

904
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 4: Of course, this is keep in mind thanks to Fox

905
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,479
Speaker 4: for providing this. However, this is not a crime scene

906
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 4: image we're looking at. This is media personnel that have

907
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 4: generated this and this should not be happening. Somebody had

908
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:36,359
Speaker 4: access to it.

909
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 1: Oh, I am so angry right now. I'm so angry.

910
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 1: Ryan Fitzgibbons, you and I have gone over and over

911
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 1: and over what Joe Scott is saying the scene was

912
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 1: not secured. Pizza delivery guys were going up there. Journalists, journalists,

913
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 1: we're going up there. So now, if the gravel on

914
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: top of the blow did mean something, we can never

915
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: prove it now. It could have meant all sorts of things.

916
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: It could have told us how she was maneuvered out,

917
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: how she may have been falling backwards, back and forth

918
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: and getting over in that gravel, or the purp had

919
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: kicked it over in his effort to carry her or

920
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:29,959
Speaker 1: get her out of the home. But we can't prove

921
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 1: anything now because the scene was destroyed because Nano's released it.

922
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: He released the scene.

923
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, there was a span of I believe it was

924
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 5: twenty four to forty eight hours where that scene was

925
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 5: not held initially released. You had door dash drivers walking

926
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 5: up to the front, journalists and you'll even notice Nancy

927
00:57:55,480 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 5: in that photo. The foliage that the porch inspect used

928
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 5: is still lying on the ground. That wasn't even collected

929
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 5: initially as evidence. It's still lying there on the ground.

930
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 5: So you know what EVIDENTI evidentiary value in court are

931
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 5: those rocks?

932
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, well done if it's brought up by

933
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: the state. The defense can shoot it down because the

934
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 1: scene was not kept secure. There's no chain of custody,

935
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 1: so to speak, so it could have had those rocks

936
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: could have gotten there in any way. If they ever

937
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: did prove anything, it won't be worth anything in court

938
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: because it will be attacked on. Cross guys joining me

939
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 1: right now. Tammy Ballard, DNA crime scene consultant, crime scene

940
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: investigation reconstructionist, former DNA criminalist for the San Diego Police

941
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: Department Crime Lab. Tammy, thank you for being with us.

942
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: I'd like to understand, regardless of what Nanos is saying

943
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 1: about how analysis could take up to a year not true.

944
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 1: I'd like to understand what you believe is happening right

945
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 1: now with the stranger DNA that was absolutely found in

946
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 1: the home. We do know it did not match up

947
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 1: to missus Guthrie, her family, or any of the workers

948
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 1: in the home. Let's just go with genetic genealogy is

949
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 1: being conducted right now. What's happening.

950
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 10: They are dealing with mixtures again. The goal is to

951
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 10: find a DNA sample that is going to be suitable

952
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 10: to do genealogy. That's your first hurdle. So the limitations

953
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 10: with forensic genealogy happen to be related mostly on the

954
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 10: front end with this type of scenario as far as

955
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 10: mixtures go. So if they have a complex mixture three

956
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 10: four contributors, that's going to be something that they have

957
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 10: to overcome with genealogy, which is definitely a limitation. Let's

958
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 10: assume they develop a profile suitable for genealogy. Next you've

959
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 10: got to figure out starting the tree building. You've got

960
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 10: to start getting the sample into databases. You're only as

961
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 10: good as who's in your database, how many people are

962
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 10: in your database, and working from there, then you have

963
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 10: the populations. If you have a Hispanic population, a Hispanic

964
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 10: genealogy search that you're going to have to do, maybe

965
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 10: that's going to put in some additional hurdles into your search.

966
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 10: So you know that I always highlight the successes of

967
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 10: the cases like the Rachel Marin case, you know, sad

968
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 10: tragic murder case where her perpetrator was from El Salvador.

969
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 10: That's a very difficult search for genealogy, but that happened

970
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 10: in record time because it was a great group of

971
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 10: genealogists that we're able to determine who this individual was.

972
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 10: So that's the hope for this case is you get

973
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 10: a good, solid profile and you're able to get that

974
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 10: into the databases.

975
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 1: You're building your.

976
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 10: Trees, and you've got a great team of genealogists assisting.

977
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, please join us on Crime

978
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: Stories and stream it first on Fox One. When breaking

979
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 1: crime news develops, we investigate it and bring it to

980
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:31,240
Speaker 1: you bombshell updates, answers to unanswered questions from cases making

981
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: the headlines, and cases you may never have heard of

982
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 1: until Crime Stories. We go inside investigations with exclusive interviews

983
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 1: crime victims, families seeking justice, investigators, experts, and sources from

984
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 1: within the case itself. Stay on top of the nation's

985
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 1: biggest trials with us including Gavel to Gavel coverage with

986
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: real time analysis. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace stream it

987
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 1: first on Fox One. I hope to see you there

988
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 1: and thank you friend. Right now, the blood is being

989
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 1: subjected to genetic genealogy testing. We believe it's a blood

990
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 1: DNA sample out of the home. How long will it

991
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 1: take will it work? That we don't know, but the

992
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 1: cutting edge technology of genetic genealogy is ongoing. Was the

993
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: ransom ever paid?

994
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 11: Listen Harvey Levin, we received an alleged ransom note that

995
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 11: we forwarded on to the authorities, to the sheriff's department.

996
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 11: The FBI called us a few hours later, wanted to

997
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 11: had a bunch of questions about that note. There are deadlines,

998
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 11: I say plural deadlines in this letter, and one is

999
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 11: looming right when the family is reaching out to say

1000
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 11: we're ready to talk. This letter suggests no talk.

1001
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 7: That right.

1002
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 6: That was made clear right at the beginning.

1003
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 8: We received your message and we understand. We beg you

1004
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 8: now to return our mother to us so that we

1005
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 8: can celebrate with her. This is the only way we

1006
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 8: will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and

1007
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 8: we will pay.

1008
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 1: Many people question was the ransom ever paid and if not, why,

1009
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 1: to a special guest joining us, Scott Iiker as well

1010
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 1: as Brian fitz Gibbons. Let me first start with you, Fitz.

1011
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 1: You go around the world with your team trying to

1012
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 1: find missing people. Oh, by the way, that video is

1013
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 1: from our friend Harvey Levin at TMZ. We heard Savannah

1014
01:03:54,680 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 1: stating over and over, we're listening, we're here. We will pay.

1015
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: I don't believe a ransom was ever paid. See I

1016
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 1: would have rushed in immediately and paid the ransom, and

1017
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 1: as it turned out, I highly doubt that that ransom

1018
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 1: note was legit.

1019
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:18,959
Speaker 5: Fence, I agree it was missing two essential things, proprietary

1020
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:22,880
Speaker 5: information and proof of life. Those are two things that

1021
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 5: in a typical kidnap and ransom case will immediately be delivered.

1022
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 5: The second thing is it wasn't delivered to the family, right.

1023
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 5: This went to a media outlet, so of course the

1024
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 5: family and law enforcement had to take this very seriously

1025
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 5: at the time. But I think as we sit here,

1026
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 5: you know, on day forty eight, it's pretty clear that

1027
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:46,920
Speaker 5: these were not authentic.

1028
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:51,600
Speaker 1: Well, there was another issue to you, Scott Eiker. Well,

1029
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 1: I agree with what you said, Fitz, but a there

1030
01:04:54,800 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 1: was never proof of life ever presented, be they never

1031
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 1: contacted the family directly, as Fitz just told you. But

1032
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 1: Scott Iiker, another issue I have is the delay, because

1033
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 1: obviously this is not a this is not a burglary,

1034
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 1: this is not a robbery. None of that happened. When

1035
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 1: you go in to commit a burglary, you don't go, oh,

1036
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 1: my stars, are somebody home. I think I'll take her

1037
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:26,440
Speaker 1: with me. That No, that's not how it works. So

1038
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 1: obviously one of the only choices left is ransom. But

1039
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 1: typically ransom requests happened immediately so the victim's family can

1040
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 1: get the money together and start the negotiation. There was

1041
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 1: never a negotiation. All there was was a bitcoin manner

1042
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 1: of payment, and without any proof of life, and with

1043
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:58,960
Speaker 1: the delay in submitting the ransom, I just don't believe

1044
01:05:58,960 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 1: it was valid.

1045
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 6: I totally agree.

1046
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 3: And that last point you made that it needs to

1047
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 3: be immediate after the kidnapping and directly to the family

1048
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:09,919
Speaker 3: I think are some of the most important parts of it.

1049
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 6: I mean proof of life.

1050
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 3: That's obviously something that Savannah initially wanted, but if you

1051
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 3: remember in some of the later videos, she was just

1052
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:21,040
Speaker 3: kind of more leaning towards hey, we want our mom back,

1053
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:27,040
Speaker 3: whatever condition she's in. Either way, I think the law enforcement,

1054
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 3: the FBI, and the Sheriff's office evaluated those with the

1055
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 3: Behavioral Analysis unit analyzing the wording A analyzing whether it's

1056
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 3: real or not, and I don't think any of it

1057
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 3: was real. I think that I don't think the ransom

1058
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 3: was paid, and that's why we still are in this

1059
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 3: type of situation and had nothing to go on at

1060
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:48,560
Speaker 3: this point.

1061
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 1: Also tonight, I want to look at the security door

1062
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:56,360
Speaker 1: on Nancy Gathery's front porch. Let's see that. Now. According

1063
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: to a neighbor, this was practically burglar proof. What about

1064
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:02,840
Speaker 1: Dave mac You're exactly right, Nancy.

1065
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 2: A neighbor came forward to say, they have the same

1066
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 2: security door and they are impenetrable. You cannot break in

1067
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 2: through the front door with that security door there.

1068
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 1: That was what she said.

1069
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 2: He that there's no way anybody got through that front door.

1070
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 1: Hmmm, I don't know if I agree with that. Could

1071
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:27,439
Speaker 1: it be could it be subjected to a lock pick?

1072
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: Joe Scott? Would that work? I mean, I'm not saying

1073
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 1: break the door down, I'm saying a lock pick.

1074
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1075
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 4: But okay, here's the deal, particularly with tool marks. If

1076
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:41,080
Speaker 4: you look at that dead bolt that's at the top,

1077
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 4: hopefully they've documented that very very well. If they suspected

1078
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 4: that you could see pick marks there, and also you

1079
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:52,160
Speaker 4: would look for any other tool marks. That's a great

1080
01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 4: shot right there. Do you see that guard that's on

1081
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 4: the right. One of the things here. When you think

1082
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 4: about the preventative nature of this, can it defeat Can

1083
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:00,960
Speaker 4: a fryebar.

1084
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 1: Defeat that?

1085
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:07,080
Speaker 4: I would say probably not. Without raising a huge ruckus

1086
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 4: in this area, and just looking at that, it doesn't

1087
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:13,160
Speaker 4: look like there's any kind of insult to that margin

1088
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:16,600
Speaker 4: there but the Locke themselves. I suppose that somebody was

1089
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 4: skilled enough they could probably pick it, but it would

1090
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 4: take some time to do that. Nancy.

1091
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 1: Guys, if you know or think you know anything about

1092
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:27,840
Speaker 1: the disappearance of Missus Guthrie, please dial toll free eight

1093
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:31,840
Speaker 1: hundred two two five five three two four, or if

1094
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:35,439
Speaker 1: you wish to remain anonymous five two zero eight eight

1095
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 1: two seven four sixty three. There is a one point

1096
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:44,160
Speaker 1: two plus million dollar reward. Thank you to our guest,

1097
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 1: but especially to you for being with us tonight. Nancy

1098
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 1: Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night,

1099
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 1: and until then, good night friend,