WEBVTT - Bioplastics: Beyond recycling 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.160 Hey, Dina, Hi Mark. So what are we talking about today? 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:07.120 We are going to talk about bioplastics. Specifically, we're going 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.600 to be talking about a report called Bioplastics Primer Market 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:14.160 Overview by being a fantaist called il Hansa Vout. So 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:16.799 when I read this yesterday, I feel like I understood it, 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:18.200 you know, I got it, but I don't think I 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:20.840 quite got it right. It didn't click for me until 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.239 last night. So I was home cooking dinner, listening to 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:26.400 the news as I always do, and it kind of 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:28.680 throw away story caught my attention. It was really, you know, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.120 just a few lines stating that Malaysia was sending back 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:36.760 three thousand tons of illegally imported plastic waste to the UK, US, Australia, Japan, 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.760 France and Canada. The Environment Minister of Maljia said Malaysia 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:42.600 will no longer be a dumping ground of the world, 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.440 and it seems other countries are following me suit. So Thailand, 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.120 the Philippines, Indonesia are all sending back plastic waste to 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:52.320 all these places um and refusing to accept more. Now, 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:54.760 what does make it into these countries often gets illegally 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.280 incinerated or sits in the landfill, so only a small 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.680 fraction gets recycled. So bioplastics, this seems what happened, or 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:03.960 what well could happen when Western countries are forced to 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.039 reckon with not being able to sweep their plastic under 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.800 the rug anymore. It's really coming from everywhere. Yeah, we've 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:12.440 we've got materials everywhere, and the reality is that when 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.600 you throw something away, there is always in a way. 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:18.040 So whether that a way is us shipping it to 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:22.479 different country, whether that away is it unfortunately ending up 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:25.560 in the ocean. So there have been a lot of 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:28.759 there's been a lot of recent attention on social media 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:31.319 and in the news about the Pacific guy or so 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:33.720 if you've not heard of this, uh, this is a 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:38.920 Texas size lump of floating plastic waste in the ocean. 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.680 And it's typically followed up with some sort of picture 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:46.120 of something like a sea turtle that's wrestling with a 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.960 single use plastic bag or a straw, and you know, 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:54.920 it's it's this very confronting image of human waste going 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:58.120 into what we consider, you know, pristine natural spaces that 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.400 are no longer pristine become because of it. So I 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:03.520 think we can spend a lot of time talking about waste, 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.440 but hopefully today what we're gonna do is really actually 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:10.240 get much more into bioplastics and what some of the 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:14.040 innovators are doing to create different materials both from different 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.399 sources or can be ultimately because of how they're made 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:21.280 treated differently end of life bioplastics. There's just an existing 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:24.639 small part of the market right now, but let's explore 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.920 what the future could potentially hold on this and really 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.440 what bioplastics are, because that's something that until I read 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.280 this note, I wasn't clear on and I thought I was. 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.400 So if you want to read Bioplastics Primer Market Overview 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:41.440 by Ihan Savut, you can find it on biennef dot 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.640 com or biennfs mobile app by just searching for the 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.200 title of the note, or on the Bloomberg terminal at 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:49.280 b an ef go. If you're not a client, shoot 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.519 us an email at sales dot BNF at Bloomberg dot net. 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:55.520 And just a quick reminder that BENNF does not provide 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:58.000 investment or strategy advice, and you can hear a full 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:00.280 disclaimer at the end of our show. So I'm Dana 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:02.880 Perkins and I'm Mark Taylor and you're listening to Switch 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.280 on the NF Client podcast. Joining us today is Dr 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.880 Julia Atwood, who is our head of Advanced Materials here 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:12.519 at b n EF. Welcome to the show, Julia, thanks 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:14.400 for having me back. Guys, can you start us off 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:17.040 today by by just telling us what bioplastics are? I mean, 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.160 so we read the note, we think we get bioplastics. 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.760 I read it twice. Okay, there you go. It's still 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.160 use this question. Okay. It's a complicated space, so it's 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:28.959 totally understandable that you guys are needing to read it over. 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:33.239 It's complicated because there is an entire world of plastics. 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.280 So we're going to break it down into four types. 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:38.040 There's the regular everyday plastics that you see all the time, 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.400 and they're made from fossil fuels and they do not biodegrade. 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:45.440 Then you have some very very special fossil fuel based 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.440 plastics that do biodegrade. They're called PBS and p BAT. 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:51.360 They're a little weird. We're not going to talk about 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:55.040 them too much. Then you have your bio based world 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:58.400 of plastics. Plastics are just made up of carbon and 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.920 hydrogen and a bunch of other additives. So really they 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.400 can come from any source where you have those two things, 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.000 and a lot of those are bio based, like old 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:11.120 biomass or sugarcane or corn. So within the plastics that 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:16.240 are made from biosources, you have the ones that will biodegrade, 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.680 and they are called substitutes, and these are brand new plastics. 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.280 And then you have your bio based plastics that are 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:27.440 called drop ins, and they are chemically identical from the 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.200 standard polypropylene polyethylene that you would get from a fossil field. 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:33.280 So they're called drop ins because you can just put 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:37.000 them straight into your product, no different treatment required once 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:41.560 you get the material made. Now, my understanding of bioplastics 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.080 when I heard the term was they were going to 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.400 be this universe of things that we interact with that 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:51.880 are both made from organic materials and biodegrade fairly quickly. 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.279 Is there a ven diagram of these things or does 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:56.760 everything sit in one of these two buckets that you 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:59.920 just described. There is a vend diagram, especially in terms 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.440 what happens at the end of its life, because some 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:05.560 plastics you can just put out in your compost heap 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.240 and then they will disappear, and that's like the home 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.159 composting space. But a lot of them, especially the ones 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.560 like p l A that are used very commonly, they 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.920 have to go into a special industrial compost. So you 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.960 still need to send it off with your city recycling 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.000 so that it can go to a special facility. So 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.040 do they want the people who are actually taking this 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:30.279 and composting it or incinerating it and creating energy from it, 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:32.440 whatever they're doing with it, do they want it because 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:34.640 they get the byproduct at the end? Because I'm having 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.440 these flashbacks to being a kid and having this you know, 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.320 soda can and taking it in in California and getting 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.679 five cents back and saying thinking, suddenly I'm rich because 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.160 I have a bag of soda cans. Um. Are there 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:52.880 people on a much bigger, more industrial plastics exactly? No, 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:55.520 But are there companies that are seeing this as a 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.159 really great opportunity for them to collect a new type 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:01.560 of waste induced something with it at the end, Well, 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.839 that's a tough one because really bioplastics are a tiny, 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.640 tiny fraction of the market there like one percent of 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:11.760 the plastics market, and what we normally see for creating 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.279 a new way stream and creating the business models around 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:16.279 that is that you need to have like five to 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:20.680 ten of what you're selling being that. So before you 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:25.479 have like a bio based polyethylene specified recycling stream, you 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:27.640 need to sell a lot more of it. Most of 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:30.919 the people who are buying these bioplastics are doing it 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:36.919 for sustainability reasons, or because there are extended producer requirements legislations, 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:39.440 or because there are extra taxes that they can escape 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:44.000 by using a bio friendly plastic. So what's the political 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:46.760 momentum to get it to that five percent? Is it 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:50.320 one of these things where everybody is really looking at 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.039 this is a is a new industry and governments are 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.159 wanting a plastic alternative or they kind of been different 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:57.880 to it, or is it what we talked about in 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.640 the intro? Is it? Is it the Philippines and Indonesia? 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.800 And yeah, it's a combination of those things. I would 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:06.320 say the policy is not as developed as it was 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:10.120 for something like biofuels, where you had these blending requirements. 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:14.000 We're not seeing anything like that yet, partly because the 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.200 environmental lobby is split between the people who want to 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:21.040 encourage recycling and the people who want to encourage bioplastics. 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.120 So where we do see governments getting behind this, it's 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:28.040 typically where there's a big national champion and a lot 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.560 of agriculture. And the country that is sticking in my 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:34.640 head here is really Brazil. So brass Cam makes most 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:39.800 of the world's biopoly athlete. They're by far the dominant producer, 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:42.960 and that's because there's just so much biomass in Brazil, 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:45.600 so it's great for them, and then people who want 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.640 to get off oil. So Japan has some legislation around it, 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.840 but really the policy has focused much more on you 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.600 have to have plastics with SAT recycled material in it, 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:58.720 or we're going to tax you. That's what they're suggesting 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:00.840 in the UK that there are a lot of ways 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:03.720 to deal with the waste issue. End of life. I mean, 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:07.800 I think I was reading yesterday UM statistic that in 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:11.240 two thifteen I'm sure the number is different now of 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:14.800 plastic waste was just discarded and not actually dealt with. Now, 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:18.160 whatever that actual number is for each individual locale, there's 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:19.760 definitely a lot of stuff that needs to be dealt 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:22.280 with end of life read I read yesterday the stat 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:26.360 now is only nine gets recycled. Yeah, that's because some 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:31.600 people sometimes consider incinerating plastic as recycling it because it's 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:35.520 being used for power. It is having another use, but 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:39.080 it's not going back into anybody's supply chain. Okay, So 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:40.840 that's the way to deal with that. End of life's 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:42.880 a bit of a stretch, isn't It depends on what 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:46.000 you want to incentivize. If you just do not want landfills, 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:48.080 at least you're getting something out of it. And the 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.120 end of life is so tricky for bioplastics because we 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.000 were talking about the methane earlier, and I mean, you 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.960 guys will know methane is a much more potent greenhouse 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:59.640 gas than carbon dioxide. So there are people in the 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:01.920 other eye of the lobby who say, yeah, but we're 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:05.440 locking carbon away in plastic from a fossil fuel and 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.440 it sits there in a landfill inert, doesn't do anything, 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:11.760 doesn't release any carbon, whereas these biodegradable ones at the 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:13.679 end of their life, Yeah, you took carbon out of 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:15.560 the air, but you put it straight back up or 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:18.080 you create this mething. And so the end of life 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:21.720 is something that people argue about a lot around bioplastics. Well, 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.960 and let's talk a little bit about the traditional plastics 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.480 that were used to dealing with and they sit in 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.920 the landfill and presumably do nothing for a while unless 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.640 they make their way into the ocean, and then we've 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.120 got a different thing on our hands. But it was 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:39.760 the Plastics Industry Association I think you were saying, referred 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:44.160 to the term biodegradable as being equivalent to the word yummy, 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:48.360 because it doesn't actually mean much of anything because it 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:51.040 has to do with what timeline we're looking at. Now. 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:54.360 I'm not saying I agree or disagree with that definition 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:56.520 of the word, as I think biodegradable actually does have 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.319 a pretty good definition. But um, they do have a 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.679 point there. If these bioplastics make their way into your 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:06.840 home compost or more importantly, into the oceans, what happens 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:09.080 to them? Do we need these end of life cycle 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.040 people to really be thinking about what we're going to 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.440 do with them or does it really vary? It's really 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.280 not just to throw it away and we're good type 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.120 thing like you would think of a banana peel. Because 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:24.560 so many plastics are used to contain food and that 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:26.959 means they're in contact with water. It often means they're 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.520 in contact with heat and water and heat are kind 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.160 of the things that you think about when something is degrading. 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:36.200 So it's difficult for the producers because they want to 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:39.599 make something that's easily biodegradable, but they have these mechanical 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:43.000 and temperature requirements that they have to fulfill. So say 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.000 p L A, which is the most common, one of 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:48.720 the most common biodegradable plastics, if that ends up in 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:51.840 the ocean, it's actually pretty water resistant. It's probably going 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.160 to sit there for a very long time. And by 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:56.880 a very long time, you mean hundred years, five hundred years, 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:02.360 a thousand years, probably the scale of years. Because in 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:08.120 ideal conditions, the technical standard for being biodegradable is that 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:12.320 nine of the carbon contained in that material has to 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.560 have been released as carbon dioxide after a hundred and 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:20.760 eighty days. So there is a definition, there is, but 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.960 it's a very it's a pretty loose one and it 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:29.360 doesn't specify the conditions. Okay, so I'm thinking about where 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.480 I've actually seen this stuff. So we're talking a bit 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:34.480 about the end of life, but what about everybody who 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:38.679 wants to make this stuff? So I'm thinking Christmas time, 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:43.400 actually there was this vestas wind turbine made by Lego 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:47.160 that my son really wanted from Santa Claus. You've raised 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.520 your children well, Dana. It was. It was really fun 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:53.000 because finally what mommy does for a living was cool, um, 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:55.600 and he asked for it from Santa of all people. 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.640 And one of the things they had pretty heavily advertised 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:02.120 on the box was this bioplastic little the trees were 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:04.600 made of bioplastics, and they're toying around with this idea 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:08.200 of creating bioplastics, and who knows what that will end 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:11.640 up doing too, Legos manufacturing I can't even begin to guess, 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:15.920 given we've got mounds of Lego plastic in our house 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:20.040 right now. Um. But what other companies you mentioned in 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:22.840 the note that Coca Cola potentially has skin in the 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.120 game here, and I'm thinking this is an opportunity. But 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:29.720 but for who on the demand side, Anybody who's close 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.440 to the consumer is now under a lot of pressure 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.200 to make their products more sustainable. They have come under 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.880 a lot of fire for plastics in the oceans, for 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.840 port labor practices in some cases, for you know, artisanal 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.040 mining in Africa. So everybody has this at the front 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.240 of their mind, and bioplastics are a nice way for 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:52.360 them to keep a material that's incredibly important to the 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.400 consumer sector. Think about everything in your life it's made 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.360 of plastics, while making it more sustainable. So Coca Cola 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:03.560 was really the company that got the whole ball rolling 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:08.160 on the bio pet side of things, because what the 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:12.560 people making bioplastics desperately, desperately need is a champion. You 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.000 have to have somebody raising their hand and saying I'm 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.079 going to take fift your capacity before they will build 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.440 a plant. I think the other companies that are likely 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.680 to get into it are people in the clothing sector, 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:27.280 people making packaging, the brand owners people like Unilever, Procter 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:31.440 and Gamble, Nike, and from clothing, you mean because of 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:33.600 all the packaging that comes in it, or actually to 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.520 make the clothing itself, because what is it, something like 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.640 six the world Economic forms at six of all the 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:44.240 clothes that are manufactured have some sort of synthetic fiber. Yeah, 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.480 there's a huge amount of signetic synthetic fibers out there. 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.400 Not a lot of them are bio based at the 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:55.320 moment um, but things like shoes, they're really interesting because 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.200 they have a lot of different plastics in them. Um, 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.840 and yeah, it's something that people are willing to spend 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.000 quite a bit of money on. I know, my daddy's 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.000 a big runner. He spends a ton of money on 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.800 running shots. So it's a high value product and it's 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.760 consumer base is pretty conscious of these things. The interesting 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.800 outlier for me though, is Forward. Either of you guys 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:22.240 drive a Forward, not as much as I'd like, so 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:26.080 Forward is actually using bioplastics quite a bit. They're starting 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:31.360 to blend them into the interiors, into the other plastic 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:33.440 parts that they have in their car. You know, stuff 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:37.480 is a little away from the engine. So that's an 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.240 industry that hasn't made as much of a move towards bioplastics. 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.120 But if Ford can kind of show them the way 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:45.640 in terms of the supply chain and the design standards, 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.360 then there are quite a few plastics and cars these days, 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.800 and there's going to be more. Now, how about the 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:56.160 other forms of packaging that I've been getting kind of 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:58.880 some interest recently, well actually for a long time. So 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:01.760 it what comes to mind from my standpoint is tetrapack, 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.560 or how with all these plastic bag bands you're seeing 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.880 a lot of places. Uh, the alternative seems to be 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.560 paper bags, which instantly have a much higher carbon footprint, 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:15.240 are bioplastics. And I know it's really hard to kind 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.680 of extrapolate this out, given there are only one percent 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:21.400 of this plastics market right now. But do you foresee 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:25.200 them potentially encroaching in on the plastics market or do 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:30.120 you see them encroaching in on these alternative things materials 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:34.880 also biopackaging from paper or other things. If we want 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.880 to give it another term, um, where do you see 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.040 it really going or is it just gonna add additional 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.160 capacity because I mean the world's going to go from 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:47.160 seven billion to potentially ten or twelve billion people, and gosh, 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:51.600 we need, we want materials. I think the alternatives that 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:53.720 we have right now, some of them, like paper bags, 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:55.880 I think they're a bit of a band aid measure 0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.360 because while there are people who can make bioplast sticks, 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:05.120 there isn't actually that much active capacity, So the people 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.560 who are buying them are worried about security of supply. 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.320 So I think when you see a plastic bag band 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.000 a lot of these companies, their first instinct is, oh 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.400 my god, let's switch to paper because everybody knows where 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:20.480 to get plastics, ready to get paper bags. Um, but 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:24.520 the paper isn't as good a packaging material as plastics 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.960 because you know, if your eggs break or your milk leaks, 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:29.920 it starts to get really weak and then all of 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:34.360 your oranges and bananas followed to the bottoms, So doesn't 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:39.080 last as long. That's that's the thing. Plastics last forever. Yet, Um, 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.000 those single used plastic bags, they can be used a 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.320 couple of times, whereas a paper bag you get it 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:48.760 wet toast. Yeah, and you've hit on exactly. The problem 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:53.760 is that utilization has a huge impact on the overall 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.920 carbon footprint of something, because when you think about a 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:00.800 reusable water bottle that has a much much lower urban footprint, 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:04.960 even though you need more and higher performance materials to 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:06.880 make the thing in the first place, if you can 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:11.800 kill demand for a lot of other things, then that 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.640 gives you a big benefit in terms of carbon. So 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:19.199 I might actually bypass that whole question and say I'm thinking, 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.040 you know, cloth bags and getting everything delivered to your 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:25.120 door in crates that you then put immediately into your fridge. 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:29.480 Maybe the future, So on the performance end of things 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.719 you reference in your research that they've cut kind of 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.959 different performance characteristics. Could you talk about some of the 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:40.760 benefits that bioplastics actually provide as And I don't know 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:43.480 which of the two categories of bioplastics, but but which 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:47.040 of these two categories has kind of a superior value 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.399 to it that a consumer or even that a manufacturer 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.000 may want in the market. The thing to remember is 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:56.880 that the bio based plastics, so like biope biopet, it's 0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:59.760 exactly the same as So we're not going to notice 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.240 the forens except I think I've interacted with some and 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.760 they're slightly matt finish. Yeah, that's the only differences. The 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.080 only avantage there for the substitution. This is the substitution 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:09.800 is one right now, this is the drop in the 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:12.400 drop in, so sorry, it's the only advantage there that 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.040 you're not using oil to make it. Yes, and for 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.800 some of them it's not even that they're totally oil free. 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:22.360 So biopet, for example, is only bio based, so there's 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.200 still quite a lot of oil in there. There are 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:28.919 bio routes, but they're not commercially mature. So yeah, I 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:31.639 mean the people who are making the packaging and using 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:33.919 these materials. They see it as a benefit that they 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:36.119 don't have to change their process at all. But on 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.040 the other hand, the reason why the substitutes, so these 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:40.800 are the new things like p l A and p 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.360 h A, the reason why they can have better properties 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:45.920 is because you're designing a brand new material, and so 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:49.480 you can use additives or different processing methods to give 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.600 you stuff that you didn't have before, so like better 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:55.080 temperature resistance or better formability, or it can just be 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.840 stronger and stiffer um or if you want them matt finish, 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.520 you can have Matt initially a Christmas tree. So there 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:07.000 are plastics engineers out there saying let's make packaging all 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:08.840 kinds of different things, because we might just be able 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:13.880 to make some more interesting stuff. Yeah, exactly, when you're saying, 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:16.640 just what is a bioplastic, red flags went up in 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.600 that seems like there's some dark secrets here. So land 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.879 use water use food competition. Can you comment on that 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.240 at all. Let me start with the food competition thing. 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:30.199 They've started by using foods like corn and sugar and 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:33.520 soybeans because that's the easiest thing to make it from. 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:35.439 You know, it's a pretty rich source of the oils 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.720 that they need. But there are a ton of startups 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:41.760 out there who are working on second, third, fourth generation 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:45.800 feedstocks like potato peel waste and carrot waste, all the 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.360 stuff you don't want to use. I get a magazine 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:53.399 that comes in a potato peel waiste sac. It's a 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:57.960 children's magazine, but all saying, I'm imagining brown burlap coming 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.919 through the hill plot. We do a dress water and 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:03.960 land use in the note. So we have a chart 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.560 where we're looking at the cradle to gate carbon footprint 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:09.840 and comparing it to Patrick chemicals, and we have like 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.760 a line and it's basically anything below this line is 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.719 better for the environment. We take into account water and 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:20.640 land using carbon footprint, but it's extremely lucation dependent. If 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.960 you were growing all of your bioplastics feedstocks in a 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:28.960 greenhouse on the middle of a rock face in Newfoundland, 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:33.320 then that's not interfering with your food supply um or 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:35.639 if you're using the waste stuff like the second and 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.280 third generation feedstocks, then that's a positive as well. It's 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:42.160 better than burning it. I've put about people locating these 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.919 like in Wyoming near or excuse me, Idaho, where all 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.840 the potatoes are or in Maine or something like that. Yeah, 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.920 it makes sense, there's that to consider. We still see 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.399 most bioplastics being below the line, so better than the 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.639 petro chemical alternatives. But then it really depends on what 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:00.359 happens to it at the end of its life. Now, 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:03.760 quick moment for definitions. You said cradle to gate. I 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:05.680 read it a couple of times in the note and thought, 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:08.200 surely this is a type of she means cradle to 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.680 grave because I've heard that time before. But what gate 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.159 are you going? I am wrong, You're going up to 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:18.679 the factory gate. Okay, so they see there, I suppose 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:21.880 from the supplier's point of view, that's when their responsibility ends. 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:24.760 They have made this thing in the most responsible way possible. 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:27.680 They've used a biofeed stock, They've powered their plant using 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:30.120 wind and solar. That's like all they can do. They 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:32.800 hand it over to the supply, delivered the little plastic pellets. 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:38.040 Deliver the pellets, and then it's like your move, guys, um, 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.080 and then it's up to the brand owner of the 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:43.600 person making the packaging to a make it so that 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.720