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Speaker 1: Why do we all believe our own truths so strongly?

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Speaker 1: And is there any possibility that we can at least

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Speaker 1: see other points of view? What is steel manning and

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Speaker 1: why is it so important? What does any of this

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Speaker 1: have to do with f Scott Fitzgerald or John Keats

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Speaker 1: or the future of our society? Welcome to Inner Cosmos

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Speaker 1: with me David Eagleman. I'm a neuroscientist and an author

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Speaker 1: at Stanford, and in these episodes we come from the

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Speaker 1: perspective of the brain to understand why and how our

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Speaker 1: lives look the way they do. Today's episode is about

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Speaker 1: something that I've talked about on here before, which is

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Speaker 1: the extreme and seemingly growing rization that characterizes much of

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Speaker 1: our society at this moment, and I'm interested in it

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Speaker 1: from the point of view of neuroscience. I'm not banging

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Speaker 1: on about any particular political position here. What I'm interested

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Speaker 1: in is how we come to form our truths and

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Speaker 1: why we each believe in them so strongly. For all

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Speaker 1: of us, with whatever political issue, our intuition usually is

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Speaker 1: to say, well, I know that I'm correct about this,

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Speaker 1: but the important part to point out is that, depending

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Speaker 1: on the issue, roughly half of the society has a

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Speaker 1: different point of view than you do, and on almost

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Speaker 1: any hot button political issue, you'll find that the people

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Speaker 1: on the other side of the issue have exactly the

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Speaker 1: same dedication and passion that you do, the same absolute

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Speaker 1: belief that they are right and that you are misinformed. Generally,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to see this with politics, and I don't

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Speaker 1: want to ruffle any feathers here, but I just want

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Speaker 1: to point out that it's often easier to see this

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Speaker 1: with something like religion, whatever deity you were brought up with.

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Speaker 1: You tend to think, okay, well, I know that's right,

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Speaker 1: and I know that the other two thousand religions on

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Speaker 1: this planet are all diluted and incorrect. But of course

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Speaker 1: each of those people is looking at you and thinking

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Speaker 1: exactly the same thing. The way the atheist community sometimes

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Speaker 1: phrases this is we are all atheists. I just believe

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Speaker 1: in one fewer God than you do. And it's always

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Speaker 1: a worthwhile exercise to think about what your beliefs would

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Speaker 1: be if you happened to be born into a different religion,

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Speaker 1: Let's say, on a different spot on the globe, where

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Speaker 1: everyone that you cared about, your mentors, your hero is

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Speaker 1: your relatives all believed in that deity. So ask yourself,

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Speaker 1: what would be your worldview? Now, if there were a

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Speaker 1: single truth about which deity is correct, you might expect

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Speaker 1: that that would spread everywhere equally. So you'd look for

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Speaker 1: evidence of a grassroots takeover of Ottestanism in Mecca, or

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Speaker 1: maybe a blossoming of Islam in North Dakota. But that's

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Speaker 1: not what we see. We all take whatever our culture

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Speaker 1: pours into our nervous systems. Now, I use this as

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Speaker 1: an example only to illustrate that it's easy to recognize

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Speaker 1: that there are many points of view on things that

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Speaker 1: we feel our fundamental truths, and for better or worse,

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Speaker 1: people can hold these truths with absolute conviction and take

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Speaker 1: up arms over this stuff, and we might be able

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Speaker 1: to get ourselves to a point of realizing that if

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Speaker 1: you were brought up in a different place, you might

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Speaker 1: have a different point of view. Okay, now you've heard

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Speaker 1: me talk about on other episodes. Is that the brain

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Speaker 1: is locked in silence and darkness inside your skull and

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Speaker 1: its whole life. It's just trying to make a model

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Speaker 1: of the world out there. We slide into the world

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Speaker 1: half baked, and we each experience a very thin trajectory

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Speaker 1: in this world. We're born in a particular spot at

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Speaker 1: a particular moment in time, and we have a handful

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Speaker 1: of experiences that shape our view, and the massive flexibility

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Speaker 1: of the human brain, what's called brain plasticity, is what

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Speaker 1: allows us to absorb our local experiences and shape our model.

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Speaker 1: So we each end up with an idiosyncratic model about

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Speaker 1: what makes sense. But the interesting thing is that our

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Speaker 1: human brains are generally terrible at seeing outside of their

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Speaker 1: own walls. We generally believe that our view of the

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Speaker 1: world is the correct view, and we're typically likely to

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Speaker 1: think that anyone who votes differently than we do is

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Speaker 1: a real problem because they are misinformed or stubborn, or

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Speaker 1: at the extreme, they're simply evil. So we have limited

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Speaker 1: internal models combined with a sense that we know the truth.

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Speaker 1: This is just the way that brains work, and for

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Speaker 1: much more detailedness, please listen to some of my previous episodes,

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Speaker 1: which I've linked in the show notes on Eagleman dot

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Speaker 1: com slash podcast. Now, one of the things that's been

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Speaker 1: hard to miss is watching millions of humans on both

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Speaker 1: sides of society doubling down and saying that they need

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Speaker 1: to protect our democracy, which is being threatened by the

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Speaker 1: other side. And part of what makes me feel dismayed

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Speaker 1: is that I have intelligent friends on both sides of

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Speaker 1: the aisle, and many of the people that I know

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Speaker 1: and love are truly unable to see the viewpoint of

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Speaker 1: the other side. People on both sides claim to have

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Speaker 1: logic on their side, and morality and the statistics, and

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Speaker 1: they feel certain that they're right and the other side

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Speaker 1: is wrong. And for that matter, a lot of people

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Speaker 1: feel certain that there even are clearly definable sides, even

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Speaker 1: though so much of political life on Earth's complexities in

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Speaker 1: which issues go with which. And again, what this comes

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Speaker 1: down to is the limitations of the internal model. Without

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Speaker 1: real effort, we have a difficult time putting ourselves at

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Speaker 1: other people's shoes. And it would be one thing if

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Speaker 1: only a few people had this other point of view.

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Speaker 1: But in the case of current political upheaval, it's usually

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Speaker 1: the case that about half of the humans that you

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Speaker 1: spin with might be on the other side of some issues.

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Speaker 1: So it's not just a few people with a wacky opinion.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about millions of people who genuinely feel differently

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Speaker 1: about some issue. Than you do. And the question is,

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Speaker 1: is there a way for us to expand our internal

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Speaker 1: models to at least see their point of view, not

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Speaker 1: even agree with it, just understand what their perspective is

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Speaker 1: and why. Now we're all familiar with the problem that's

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Speaker 1: currently worsening our political discourse, which is we all tend

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Speaker 1: to seek out the people who agree with us, and

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Speaker 1: it's a self reinforcing loop such that we tend to

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Speaker 1: believe that most or all sane and reasonable people agree

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Speaker 1: with us. But the question for today is is there

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Speaker 1: any meaningful way that we could combat this tendency to

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Speaker 1: retreat into our own echo chambers and at least here

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Speaker 1: with the other side of the political issue is saying

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Speaker 1: and how they're feeling, and to appreciate the complexities and

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Speaker 1: diversity of opinions on the other side. There's a great

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Speaker 1: quotation from the writer F. Scott Fitzgerald who says, quote,

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Speaker 1: the test of a first rate intelligence is the ability

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Speaker 1: to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same

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Speaker 1: time and still retain the ability to function. And the

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Speaker 1: poet John Keats, who was a believer in this concept

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Speaker 1: as well, he called this ability negative capability, which he

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Speaker 1: just meant as a person being capable of being in

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Speaker 1: uncertainties and mysteries and doubts. So there's some nodding to

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Speaker 1: this in the intellectual community, but we're not seeing a

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Speaker 1: great deal of this in the political media. This holding

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Speaker 1: two opposed ideas in mind at the same time, well

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Speaker 1: why not. I suspect there are at least two issues here.

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Speaker 1: The first is that we all like to believe our

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Speaker 1: own truths in the second is that people often feel

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Speaker 1: that they will seem smarter and get more followers if

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Speaker 1: they take a hardline position and say I understand this

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Speaker 1: with crystal clarity, I have no doubts.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: This is true for politicians and also for media outlets,

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Speaker 1: which are rewarded for speaking the language that their constituents

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Speaker 1: want to hear. And of course we see on all

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Speaker 1: sides of the spectrum the media that say, look, we

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Speaker 1: only care to tell the truth. Everyone else might be

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Speaker 1: a liar or misdirected, but we're finally going to get

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Speaker 1: this right. We see this on all sides, and what

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Speaker 1: this represents is our certainty that we know the truth

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Speaker 1: and if we could just shout it loudly enough and

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Speaker 1: start our own website, then everyone would see the wisdom

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Speaker 1: of what we're saying and come to agree with us.

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Speaker 1: And you may know that I made a triptich of

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Speaker 1: episodes on this issue of the meaning of truth and

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Speaker 1: truth on the Internet and truth in media. Those were

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Speaker 1: episodes forty to forty two. And if you heard my

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Speaker 1: argument there, you'll know that I think this notion of

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Speaker 1: telling the truth in media is a lost cause because,

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Speaker 1: with the exception of a very few factual issues, most

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Speaker 1: of telling a political story is interpretation, which is to say,

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Speaker 1: even putting aside the fog of war issues, the issue

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Speaker 1: of perspective determines which facts make it into your story

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Speaker 1: and which do not. So the question I want to

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Speaker 1: ask say is this, is there a different approach to

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Speaker 1: news telling? Is there a way to think about doing

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Speaker 1: this totally differently? And I think one of the cleverest approaches,

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Speaker 1: which is attempted every once in a while, is to

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Speaker 1: build something that instead of trying to pick aside and

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Speaker 1: fight and die for it, but instead works to say, look,

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Speaker 1: there are multiple points of view here. Let's genuinely dig

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Speaker 1: into the complexity of the issues and try to see

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Speaker 1: if we can build a more multi dimensional understanding. Instead

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Speaker 1: of the typical approach of saying I have my team

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Speaker 1: and the other team is simply misinformed or misanthropic. And

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Speaker 1: one such attempt at making a site like this is

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Speaker 1: from a journalist named Isaac Sahl, who runs a newsletter

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Speaker 1: called Tangle. The idea of Tangle is to present different

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Speaker 1: sides of the same argument to understand something about the

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Speaker 1: complexities therein. It's not about saying both sides are right

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Speaker 1: and we're going to land in the middle. Instead, it's

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Speaker 1: about saying, wherever you might land, can you do this

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Speaker 1: with curiosity and intellectual humility and a meaningful level of

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Speaker 1: self education on the position rather than tribalism and assumption.

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Speaker 1: Big fan of what sites like Tangle are working to do,

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Speaker 1: so I called up Tangles founder Isaac Sahl to talk

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Speaker 1: with him about this. Okay, Isaac, it's so great to

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Speaker 1: have you here. You run a newsletter called Tangle, which

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Speaker 1: I'm a giant fan of, and one of the things

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Speaker 1: that has struck me as amazing is that you tell

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Speaker 1: your readers if they disagree with you, not to throw

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Speaker 1: vitriol your way or or you know, unsubscribe, but to

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Speaker 1: tell you why they disagree and to make their argument

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Speaker 1: to you. So tell us about that, tell us about

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Speaker 1: Tangle and how you came to run a newsletter like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So first of all, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm Stan of the show, glad to be here.

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Speaker 2: It's been fun listening to you guys last few weeks.

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Speaker 2: You know, I have kind of two genesis stories. I'd

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Speaker 2: say the first one is just that I grew up

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Speaker 2: in a really politically divided place in Bucks County, Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 2: Bellweather County, Bellweather State. Obviously, Pennsylvania kind of goes where

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Speaker 2: the presidential election goes. So I just grew up around

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Speaker 2: a lot of people who had very different political views

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Speaker 2: than each other, and so I saw how those divides

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Speaker 2: manifested and also how people kind of talked through those

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Speaker 2: divides in real time. And have a lot of friends

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Speaker 2: and family people I love and care about who have

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Speaker 2: different political views, which I think just makes me a

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Speaker 2: little bit more open minded to them. And then the

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Speaker 2: second kind of genesis story was just being on the

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Speaker 2: inside of media organizations and kind of seeing how the

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Speaker 2: sausage was made. And it became very clear to me

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Speaker 2: early on that a lot of media organizations are catering

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Speaker 2: their content to their audience. You know, we have a

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Speaker 2: term for it now, audience capture. The idea that you know,

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Speaker 2: an audience likes something, they like a certain tone or

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Speaker 2: a certain editorial slam, and so news organizations give them

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Speaker 2: more and more of that because they recognize that's what

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Speaker 2: the audience wants. And we've created a lot of echo

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Speaker 2: chambers and bias and you know, confirming people's preconceived notions.

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Speaker 2: And when I decided to go out and start my

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Speaker 2: own media company, I was just looking at a blank

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Speaker 2: page and that was super exciting for me to think about,

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Speaker 2: how could I tear this whole thing down and start

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Speaker 2: from the beginning. And what are some of the ethos

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Speaker 2: one of them is that I want us to be

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Speaker 2: really open minded and fair. Another is I want to

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Speaker 2: and feel like they can actually interact and learn from

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Speaker 2: have a space where they can kind of express themselves.

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Speaker 2: You know, I look at the comment section on Facebook

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Speaker 2: on an article, and a lot of people see, you know,

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Speaker 2: craziness and people spouting off and fighting, and it's always like,

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Speaker 2: don't look at the comments section. And when I go

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Speaker 2: a gold mine for people who care about issues, people

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Speaker 2: who want to express themselves, people want to be involved

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Speaker 2: people in a bit. And frankly, I learn a lot

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Speaker 2: from my readers when they write in and tell me

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Speaker 2: about why they view the world a certain way. It's

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Speaker 2: almost always illuminating.

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Speaker 1: Now a lot of folks, especially in this moment in time,

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Speaker 1: seem less interested in instigating dialogue than in terminating it.

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Speaker 1: So why do you think that is what's happening? And

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Speaker 1: do you feel that this time is different than previous eras?

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Speaker 2: Look, I mean, anybody who takes a dive into the

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Speaker 2: history of free speech will learn pretty quickly that what

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Speaker 2: we're living through right now is not a particularly unique thing.

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Speaker 2: I think beach goes through expansions and contractions, and it

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Speaker 2: always has throughout you know, civil society. There were times

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Speaker 2: when the idea of a printing press was exactly the

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Speaker 2: same way we talk about you know, the internet today,

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Speaker 2: that this would be too big and too easy to

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Speaker 2: disseminate information, and we needed to limit this thing because

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Speaker 2: it was so scary that someone could write down their ideas,

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Speaker 2: you know, print a thousand copies of them, and cover

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Speaker 2: a city in them, you know, in a matter of hours.

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Speaker 2: And we went through the same thing with the radio.

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Speaker 2: We went through the same thing with the Internet, and

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Speaker 2: it's something that's going to happen over and over again

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Speaker 2: throughout society. And I'm sure there's communication methods we haven't

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Speaker 2: even considered yet that are coming down the pike that

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Speaker 2: are going to make it a lot easier to you know,

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Speaker 2: transmit thoughts or ideas and create all sorts of different issues.

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Speaker 2: And I don't want to downplay the idea that you know,

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Speaker 2: misinformation or bad information is a you know, a threat

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Speaker 2: to democracy or a threat to an informed populace. It is.

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Speaker 2: There are certain things about it that are really problematic.

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Speaker 2: The Internet has a lot of really dark corners, and

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Speaker 2: it's really easy for people to sort of sit in

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Speaker 2: their own echo chambers and be radicalized. I mean, there's

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Speaker 2: a plethora of evidence for that. But the way to

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Speaker 2: sort of address these issues is almost never to eliminate them,

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Speaker 2: and oftentimes it's not even good to quarantine them, because

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Speaker 2: what you basically do is you just put people off

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Speaker 2: into their own silos. You put them into their own

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Speaker 2: little corners of the Internet where they're only interacting with

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Speaker 2: the people who agree with them, and it just pushes

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Speaker 2: them further into the fringe. And you know, there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of examples of this. I think the number

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Speaker 2: of people who have been quote unquote canceled or silenced

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Speaker 2: and the people who have done the cancelation or silencing

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Speaker 2: have gotten what they want is quite limited. You know,

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Speaker 2: I could think of maybe two or three people who

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Speaker 2: have I'm like, oh, I forgot that person existed because

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Speaker 2: they got canceled or they got kicked off a platform

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Speaker 2: or whatever. Most of the time, what happens is like

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Speaker 2: what happened to somebody like Alex Jones, where you know,

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Speaker 2: he becomes a martyr by being silenced, and then he

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Speaker 2: builds his audience in his own space where nothing he

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Speaker 2: says or does gets challenged. And then you know, you

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Speaker 2: look at something like January sixth, and who's there standing

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Speaker 2: on the White House lawn on a table giving instructions

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Speaker 2: on a megaphone. It's Alex Jones with a bunch of

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Speaker 2: his supporters. And yeah, maybe we haven't seen him on

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Speaker 2: Twitter for five years, but guess what, he's still building

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Speaker 2: a massive audience, speaking to millions of people, and he's

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Speaker 2: just doing it in a space where his perspectives are

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Speaker 2: never getting challenged. So I think that's the kind of

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Speaker 2: illustration of why silencing these you know, quote unquote dangerous

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Speaker 2: people is a really dangerous thing to do, and why

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Speaker 2: I prefer to have the engagement and have it out

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Speaker 2: and let the audience sort of make up their minds.

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Speaker 1: So I love your point of view and your approach

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Speaker 1: to this. Why do you think it's so rare? As in,

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Speaker 1: why are you one of the few people who's running

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Speaker 1: a site like this?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a question I asked myself a lot,

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Speaker 2: because when I started, I recognized that there was a

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Speaker 2: desire for this from people. But I also remember when

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Speaker 2: I first launched Tangle that I was not confident that

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Speaker 2: it was going to work. The idea that I was

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Speaker 2: going to bring a bunch of people from across the

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Speaker 2: political spectrum under one roof and convince them all to

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Speaker 2: trust me and to trust my news, and to trust

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Speaker 2: us as a place to provide them balanced perspectives. It

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Speaker 2: was really daunting. It seemed kind of unrealistic, and in

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Speaker 2: a lot of ways, I thought, this probably isn't going

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Speaker 2: to work, but it's worth trying. And I think most

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Speaker 2: people who are looking at the media as a business

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Speaker 2: understand that the best way to make money and the

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Speaker 2: best way to grow is to give people the red

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Speaker 2: meat that they want. You know, I mean the vast

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Speaker 2: majority of trash and viewers on a station like Fox

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Speaker 2: News or a website like the New York Times dot

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Speaker 2: com or whatever it is, they're political junkies. They are

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Speaker 2: people who are going back to that every single day.

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Speaker 2: You know, they represent maybe five or ten percent of

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Speaker 2: the population. And if you can capture that group and

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Speaker 2: keep them coming back day to day and keep giving

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Speaker 2: them what they want, keep giving them ammunition for their

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Speaker 2: arguments and their worldviews, that's a really good way to

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Speaker 2: build a subscription, you know, a subscriber base. It's a

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Speaker 2: really good way to build an audience for primetime television.

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Speaker 2: It's a really good way to build an advertising business

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Speaker 2: that has consistent traffic and metricks. And so I think

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of business stuff happening in the media

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Speaker 2: space that's sort of influencing these things. I had a

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Speaker 2: vision for a subscriber supported news outlet where people were

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Speaker 2: coming to us because they trusted us, because they wanted

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Speaker 2: to understand the news better, because they wanted to get

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Speaker 2: out of their bubbles. And I thought we could sell

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Speaker 2: it to them if the content, you know, followed through

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Speaker 2: on the promise, and we've been able to do that.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I have one hundred thousand plus subscribers

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Speaker 2: on my newsletter, which is a huge number, and I'm

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Speaker 2: super proud of it. And five years ago, if you

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Speaker 2: told me that, I would have been really happy that

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Speaker 2: we hit this milestone. But two million people watch Fox

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Speaker 2: News every night, you know, The New York Times has

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Speaker 2: two million subscribers. That Huffing and Post still gets hundreds

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Speaker 2: of thousand of hits a day. So there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of people who are competing with that make us look

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Speaker 2: like a small fish still. But I think that, you know,

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Speaker 2: we're a growing movement of people who are interested in

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Speaker 2: stepping into this kind of media ecosystem, and I hope

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Speaker 2: it keeps growling.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to touch on this issue about

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Speaker 1: the extremes about you said maybe five percent of the

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Speaker 1: people are going for the extreme things. That leaves a

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Speaker 1: lot of people somewhere in the middle. And so what

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Speaker 1: opportunities do they have, for example, from the point of

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Speaker 1: view of candidates. You know, we have a system that

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Speaker 1: tends to privilege people who take extreme positions, and so

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Speaker 1: what does this mean for our political system?

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Speaker 2: I had nothing great. It's not I would say the

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Speaker 2: news is not super optimistic in that sense. You know.

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Speaker 2: I got the chance to interview a guy named Hiram

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Speaker 2: Lewis who co authored a book called The Myth of

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Speaker 2: the Lefts and the Right. Really fascinating guy who talks about,

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Speaker 2: you know, basically, we're not operating around a left and

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Speaker 2: right political orientation that is fixed and we're all moving.

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Speaker 2: Those political orientations are actually moving, and it's really just

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Speaker 2: tribal motivations and kind of tribal dynamics that are driving

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Speaker 2: what constitutes being a conservative or what constant's being in liberal.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things that he said to me.

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Speaker 2: That has always stuck with me, which I really like

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Speaker 2: is most voters go to the voting booth, and what

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Speaker 2: they are doing effectively is like being a shop or

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Speaker 2: going to a grocery store where you're looking for a

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Speaker 2: bunch of things. You want to go pick out all

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Speaker 2: the things you want, and you get to the grocery

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Speaker 2: store and there's one card A that's just full of

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Speaker 2: half stuff you really want and half stuff you really don't,

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Speaker 2: and one car card B full of half stuff you

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Speaker 2: really want and half stuff you really don't. And you

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Speaker 2: just have to pick one of the carts, and you

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Speaker 2: pick the one with more stuff that you really like

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Speaker 2: and less stuff that you really don't. And that's what

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Speaker 2: most American voters you're doing. And I think it's true

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Speaker 2: of Democrats, and it's true of Republicans. And what's really

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Speaker 2: interesting about it is the dynamic we have in our

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Speaker 2: country right now is a lot of people who go

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Speaker 2: to the grocery store and pick cart A. Look at

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Speaker 2: people who go to the grocery store and pick cart

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Speaker 2: B and think you're totally insane. I can't believe you

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Speaker 2: would do that, like you're a nut. Even though there's

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Speaker 2: a bunch of stuff in card b they want to

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Speaker 2: and a bunch of stuff in there cart that they

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Speaker 2: don't really want, but they have a hard time seeing

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Speaker 2: that about the other person. And there's tons of dynamics

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Speaker 2: I think that drive that, you know, whether it's the

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Speaker 2: media polarization, which is an issue that I'm trying to solve,

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Speaker 2: Whether it's the fact that, you know, we only talk

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Speaker 2: about the people who are on the fringe when we

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Speaker 2: talk about the other side, or the fact that in

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Speaker 2: American society today, people are becoming a lot more siloed.

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Speaker 2: So it's not just that we consume news that you know,

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Speaker 2: affirms a lot of our priority. It's that we also

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Speaker 2: spend time with people in our social lives who mostly

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Speaker 2: agree with us politically. So, you know, if you're a

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Speaker 2: conservative living somewhere in rural West Texas, you might not

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Speaker 2: know very many in Muslims. And so the things that

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Speaker 2: you see about Muslims on the news are the things

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Speaker 2: that we all see about Muslims on the news, and

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Speaker 2: you don't get to learn or meet somebody who maybe

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Speaker 2: is not what you see characterized on the news, And

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Speaker 2: that goes every direction in our country and it creates,

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Speaker 2: you know, a really dangerous sort of boiling pot, which

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Speaker 2: I think is part of what we have right now.

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Speaker 1: So I want to return to this issue about what

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Speaker 1: makes you care about taking this middle position, about standing

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Speaker 1: in between the two carts and saying, look, I get it,

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Speaker 1: there's some good stuff in here. There's some good stuff

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Speaker 1: in here. You said that you grew up in a

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Speaker 1: place where there were different opinions and so on, but

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Speaker 1: still a lot of people grew up in that. What

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Speaker 1: is it that allowed you to feel like, all right,

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Speaker 1: I want to tackle this. I want to represent everyone's

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Speaker 1: point of view here so that we can understand each other.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, first of all, I just want to address

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Speaker 2: something you just said, because it's something I try and

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Speaker 2: talk a little bit about in my writing, which is

436
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to be a middle my own personal

437
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 2: perspectives and my own views. I'm not just trying to

438
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: find some middle ground. I actually think doing that is

439
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 2: an ideology of its own. If you're always looking for

440
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 2: what's between the left and the right, you're just going

441
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: to land on a bunch of half baked solutions. Sometimes

442
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: the people on the left are right, sometimes the people

443
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 2: on the right are right. I try and just take

444
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: it issue by issue, and I don't know. I consider

445
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 2: my self a moderate and open minded, but I don't

446
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 2: consider myself, you know, middle on a lot of the

447
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 2: really contentious issues. Sometimes I'd land there, but I try

448
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 2: and you know, come to it organically and not seek

449
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 2: it out. In terms of like the the motivation for

450
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 2: starting Tangle, I mean, part of it was the classic

451
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: entrepreneurial thing, which was I wanted a product and I

452
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,959
Speaker 2: went looking for it and I couldn't find it, and

453
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 2: so I thought, oh, it wouldn't be that hard to

454
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 2: make that. I mean, I would go read the news

455
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 2: and there'd be a story about Donald Trump's border wall,

456
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 2: and in order for me to feel like I had

457
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 2: a full understanding of all the arguments about whether a

458
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 2: border wall was a good or bad thing, I'd have

459
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 2: to read the Wall Street Journal opinion page. I'd have

460
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 2: to watch Fox News. I'd have to read the New

461
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: York Times opinion page. I'd read an article on the

462
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 2: Huffington Post. I'd read a piece from some immigration lawyers

463
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: who are on the left or at the ACLU. I

464
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 2: would listen to some conservative podcasts like Ben Shapiro or something.

465
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 2: I would go to twenty different sources and I'd six

466
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 2: hours doing it, and then at the end of all that,

467
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 2: I'd feel like, Okay, now I kind of have some clarity,

468
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 2: and I've seen a bunch of the arguments on this issue,

469
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 2: and God, I really wish there was a place that

470
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 2: I could just go get that and not spend half

471
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: my day doing it, and it would just take ten

472
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 2: or fifteen minutes. And I went looking for that product

473
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 2: and I didn't see it anywhere, and so I started

474
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: a product that I felt fulfilled that need and figured

475
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 2: I wasn't building the person who wanted that. I think,

476
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 2: you know, some of our growth has definitely confirmed that

477
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people out there, and over time

478
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 2: the newsletter, in the podcast and the YouTube channel and

479
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: all the stuff we have, it's just become a lot

480
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 2: more personal because people want to know who's providing the

481
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: news to them. So early on readers would say, hey,

482
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 2: it's like, thanks for explaining this story. Cool to see

483
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:49,479
Speaker 2: what the left and the right are saying, but I'm

484
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 2: really curious, like what do you think? And that was

485
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 2: like the genesis of my take, which is a section

486
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 2: in the newsletter where I share my own personal opinion

487
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 2: on stories and that's one of the engage parts of

488
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 2: the newsletter because people are really interested in the kind

489
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: of personal element and the person that is providing them

490
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: this information why they view things certain ways. And I

491
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 2: try not to just make that section a little mini

492
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: opinion piece. I try and address the arguments that we

493
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: just laid out in the newsletter and talk about why

494
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: so I'm resident with me and why they don't. And

495
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 2: I go to it with, you know, just humility, with

496
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 2: the acknowledgement that my position is not the right one

497
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: and I'm trying to learn and figure out what i believe,

498
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 2: just like a lot of Americans are.

499
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the key, is intellectual humility. One

500
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 1: of the things that I find so remarkable about your

501
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: newsletter is first of all, you present the what the

502
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 1: left is saying, what the right is thing. Even within

503
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: those there are different voices representing different points of view.

504
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: Then you tell your opinion. But the important part is

505
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,719
Speaker 1: then you say, look, I'm really aware, I'm trying to

506
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 1: see my own blind spots, and so next week I'm

507
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: going to write from the opposite point of view. I'm

508
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: going to stealman the other point of view and represent

509
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: that and try to see my own blind spots, and

510
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: that is so rare, and I'm still I'm trying to

511
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: figure out what makes you do that? And why isn't

512
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: everybody trying to do that?

513
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean I, first of all,

514
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 2: from a personal perspective, I find that exercise exhilarating. I mean,

515
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: I genuinely find it really interesting and fun, and it

516
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 2: excites me to challenge myself that way, and it excites

517
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 2: me to see people write in and make an argument

518
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 2: I haven't thought of. I think I have a curious disposition,

519
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 2: and I'm open minded, and I'm speaking publicly about issues

520
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: that I really care about, and so I want to

521
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 2: get them right. So the idea that I can go

522
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 2: back and read an article I wrote a few weeks

523
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: ago and then write an entire opinion piece criticizing the

524
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: thing I just wrote that exercise for me is actually

525
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: really fun and rewarding. But I'll say candidly that I

526
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 2: wasn't always like that, and it wasn't always easy for

527
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: me to do that. And one of the things that

528
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: made it easy was the actual exercise of doing the

529
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: newsletter every day, and that is created in me, you know,

530
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: like a muscle that I think I've trained the same

531
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 2: way I trained muscles going to the gym, where I

532
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 2: have taught myself that it's okay, it's okay to just

533
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: like step out of my own belief step out of

534
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: my own viewpoint, and try and put myself in another

535
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: person's perspective or put myself in another person's you know,

536
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 2: ideological framework, and explore that a bit and think along

537
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 2: those lines and play with it and going there. It's

538
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 2: you know, I think a lot of people feel like

539
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: they can't go do that because if they do, they'll

540
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: never return to their core self or their values. And

541
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 2: it's not true. You can sit down at your computer

542
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: and write a five hundred word piece making an argument

543
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 2: for a position you don't believe, just to see what

544
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 2: it feels like and what comes out of you and

545
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 2: what positions come up and what ideas come up. And

546
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: then you can delete it and never publish it or

547
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: do anything with it, or you can show it to

548
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 2: people and try and get feedback on it. And that

549
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 2: exercise doesn't change who you are fundamentally. It just makes

550
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: you a little more open minded. I think teaches you

551
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: to empathize with people who maybe you disagree, and I

552
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 2: was fortunate enough that I did that publicly through Tangle

553
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 2: with a community of readers who are interested in that,

554
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: and they gave me a lot of positive reinforcement for it.

555
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,719
Speaker 2: You know, Like we published a piece today where I

556
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: took the position that Israel should not have it like,

557
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 2: not engage in a ceasefire in Gaza, which is not

558
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 2: a position I believe. I've been writing a lot about

559
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: how I want Israel to make a ceasefire deal, and

560
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: I said today I'm going to step out of that

561
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 2: view and try and articulate the best arguments against my position.

562
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: And you know, I've read fifty emails that have come

563
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 2: in in the last hour and a half since we

564
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 2: published that piece, and forty eight of them have been positive.

565
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: You know. They are people saying, thank you so much

566
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: for doing this. I know you don't totally believe all

567
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 2: these things, but it's so fascinating to watch you go

568
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: through this process, and it's helping me better understand the conflict,

569
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 2: and getting that positive reinforcement makes me want to do

570
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: it more. So I'm very lucky in that sense, you know.

571
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm getting some of that feedback that it's

572
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 2: clear people are interested in this kind of.

573
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: Thing, and when you do this, I know you try

574
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: to be really careful to make sure that you're bringing

575
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: readers in and you're not stopping anybody at the door

576
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: from wanting to come in, and so you're careful about

577
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: language and the language choices you make.

578
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: So tell us about that. Yeah, sure, you know. This

579
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: is something that I care a lot about because what

580
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: I've learned over time from doing this is it's often

581
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 2: not the content of the argument that sends people scurrying

582
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 2: away from you know, your perspective or your writing. It's

583
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: the language that you're using to sort of communicate it.

584
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: And so one of the classic examples that I give

585
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: that I think is really relevant in the media space

586
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: is the ways in which we talk about illegal immigration

587
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: in the United States. Anybody can go do this right now.

588
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 2: If you go to funews dot com and look up

589
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: a story about, you know, President Biden's border policies, you'll

590
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: see Fox News referring to legal aliens or illegal immigrants.

591
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: And if you go to the New York Times and

592
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: look up stories about Biden's border policies, you'll see them

593
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: referring to undocumented immigrants and that language choice might seem

594
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: not that important to somebody who is really a political junkie,

595
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 2: but to people who really care about that issue, that

596
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: those language choices matter a lot. And we found early

597
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: on that people would write in and say, you know,

598
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: I saw you refer to undocumented immigrants, and it's clear

599
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: that you're on the left, so I've unsubscribed, And it's

600
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 2: like they didn't even get to the arguments. They just

601
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: saw that language choice, and to them, that's a tip

602
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: that we are taking some ideological stance. And so, you know,

603
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: sometimes we would do articles where we mixed it, where

604
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 2: we do some undocumented and some illegal immigrants, and then

605
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: you know, people on the left would write in and say, like,

606
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 2: no person is a lead goal, you're dehumanizing immigrants. I

607
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: thought I was getting something better than this. I've unsubscribed

608
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 2: from the newsletter. And so we looked at our whole

609
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: you know, vocabulary across the website and started thinking about

610
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: ways in which we could find a little bit more

611
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 2: neutral language that still articulated the thing we were trying

612
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: to get across to our readers or listeners, so you know,

613
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 2: on the question of immigration. Our solution to that was

614
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: we refer to illegal immigrants or undocumented immigrants as unauthorized migrants,

615
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 2: which is actually the legal term that something like the

616
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: Department of Homeland Security will use to describe somebody who's

617
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: coming to the country illegally. And we find that that

618
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: doesn't offend the sensibilities at either side. It articulates exactly

619
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 2: what we're trying to say, and it keeps people focus

620
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: on the arguments we're presenting and not just the language

621
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 2: choices we're making. And you know this is relevant for abortion,

622
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: drug policy, every issue you can think of under the sun.

623
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: There there are language choices like this that readers are

624
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: really keen on, and it's a good way to kind

625
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 2: of get people's barriers down and make it so you

626
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: can communicate with them a little bit more openly.

627
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so glad you're really thinking about these trip

628
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: wires and removing those so you can get everyone in

629
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: to talk about these issues. So, as a neuroscientist, what

630
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in is how we each have our

631
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: internal model of the world and we believe our truths.

632
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: We believe our models are complete, and we have those

633
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: From your point of view, why do you think it's

634
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 1: so difficult for people to see both sides of an issue,

635
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 1: or usually more than two sides, all sides of an issue.

636
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: Why is that such a challenge for people generally?

637
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, I don't this is probably closer

638
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 2: to your expertise than mine, to be frank, and I

639
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 2: don't want to, you know, step out of my lane here.

640
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 2: But from what I understand from reading a lot of

641
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 2: you know, people like Jonathan Haate who write a lot

642
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 2: about the way our brains work, and you know, the

643
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,879
Speaker 2: competing things that happened and reasoning, what we know is that,

644
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 2: you know, use is the analogy of the elephant and

645
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: the rider, that our emotional response is like this ninety

646
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 2: percent part of our brain, this kind of instinctive response

647
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 2: we have to certain ideas to certain politicians or whatever

648
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: it is. That's the elephant, and then there's the rider,

649
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 2: that's the ten percent logic reason that's trying to control

650
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 2: this emotional thing. But sometimes we've lost the battle before

651
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 2: we even you begin. There's tons of super interesting political,

652
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: you know, poly sized studies about this stuff. Like, for instance,

653
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: one of the things that I've read about is a

654
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 2: study where people are shown the image of a politician

655
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 2: for about three seconds, and then the image is removed.

656
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 2: Then there's some the image of another politician for about

657
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: three seconds. The image is removed, and then they're asked

658
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 2: to vote on which politician they like more. And then

659
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 2: they do the same experiment again with people where they

660
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 2: show them these politicians and then they spend twenty minutes

661
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 2: explaining the views and they do the same thing and

662
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: the results are almost identical. And so what the researchers

663
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 2: take away is that a lot of times people are

664
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 2: making their minds up in a split second, just like

665
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 2: literally based on how somebody looks, all the things they

666
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 2: can assume about them, just based on their appearance and

667
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: what they look like, and that by the time they

668
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 2: get to know their actual views and policies, you're only

669
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 2: moving like ten percent of the population. Kind of a

670
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: scary thought, right, I mean, really like whoa. But it's

671
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: reflective of the fact that we are a tribal species,

672
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: you know, like there are people that we've interacted with,

673
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 2: there are people that we've spent our lives growing up with,

674
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 2: people that feel foreign, are different from us, and when

675
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: push comes to shove, those kind of like instinctual based

676
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 2: lizard brain type responses do a lot of the driving.

677
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: And you know, to the point I was making earlier,

678
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 2: I think it's a muscle you have to flex. It's

679
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 2: something you have to be very intentional about to do.

680
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 2: Everybody's capable of it. But I don't think it's something

681
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: that comes totally organically to people to just you know,

682
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 2: be open minded about the views or ideas or politicians

683
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: or whoever they're considering. That's right.

684
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: We all have a drive for certainty where we feel like, hey,

685
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: look I know the truth, I know it's right and

686
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: what's wrong here. Do people ever look at what you

687
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: are doing and accuse you of being wishy washy?

688
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they do. That's something I get a lot.

689
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: I mean, the common accusation is, you know, both SiZ

690
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 2: ism or what about ism or you know whatever else.

691
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: And look, I get it if you're somebody who has

692
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 2: a strong political view about an issue and you sign

693
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 2: up for our newsletter or start listening to our podcast

694
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: and you hear me talk about an issue and take

695
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 2: a squishy stance on something where you know, sometimes I'll

696
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 2: just say I actually don't know. I mean, I'll literally which,

697
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: by the way, everybody should do a lot more. But

698
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 2: I'll just say I don't you know, I don't know

699
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: like I feel conflicted about this. I don't feel confident

700
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 2: saying strongly that what my view is one way or

701
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 2: the other. Here's why I feel conflicted, and I'm just

702
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 2: not sure where I land on. You know, whether Congress

703
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: should pass this bill or not. And people feel strongly

704
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 2: about that issue, will you know, write in accusing me

705
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: of being wishy washy or whatever else, and my response

706
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 2: to them, like the standard response is I understand why

707
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 2: you feel strongly about this issue, and I can see

708
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: very clearly you know why this matters to you, what's

709
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: important to you about it. If you were looking for

710
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 2: somebody who's just going to give you something in black

711
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: and white terms all the time, I'll tell you right

712
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 2: now you're not going to get that here. And this

713
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: isn't the news outlet for you. I think there's a

714
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 2: lot of people doing that, and I hope you keep

715
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 2: reading them and you keep engaging them and supporting them

716
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 2: if you like their work. But to me, it seems

717
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 2: like we are actually the place you should be spending

718
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: some time with to get a little bit more of

719
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 2: the gray. And that response oftentimes goes over well, sometimes

720
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: it lands a little condescending or off putting or whatever,

721
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 2: but oftentimes people are receptive to that and they're appreciative

722
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: I took the time to write back or answer them somehow,

723
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: and so I just try and you know, be authentic

724
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: about what we're trying to do and who I am

725
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: as a person. And people typically, you know, they reply

726
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 2: positively when you just transparent and authentic and put a

727
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 2: little effort in.

728
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: One of the things that I've been writing about and

729
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: talking about in this podcast is the way that I

730
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: possibly the only way that I see of trying to

731
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: bring sides a little bit closer together is the complexification

732
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: of allegiances, by which I mean understanding. Okay, well, look,

733
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: you know I feel strongly about this issue and you

734
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: feel the opposite about this. But you know, we actually

735
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: have this in common, and we both like to surf,

736
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: and we both like this kind of dog, and we

737
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: both have children at the same elementary school, and we

738
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: love the you know, activities there. And so when things

739
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 1: get tangled like that, then people find it a little

740
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: harder to completely dismiss the person and say you're my enemy.

741
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: So I'm just curious, you know, your newsletter I think

742
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: goes a long way to doing that. What would you

743
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: see in terms of the ways that we can entangle

744
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: the allegiances that people have in our society.

745
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I get a lot of emails that

746
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: I think ask a really similar question in a different way,

747
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 2: which is, you know, my niece is like a radical

748
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 2: socialist and I don't know how to talk to her

749
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 2: about politics. Or my neighbor is a diehard Trump supporter

750
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,439
Speaker 2: and he flies the Trump flag and it freaks me out,

751
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 2: but you know, I want to learn more about him,

752
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: and you know, do you have any advice about how

753
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 2: to approach this the conversation or whatever? And you know,

754
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: depending on the context, I think one of my common

755
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 2: go to answers is just like, have you ever tried

756
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 2: grabbing a six packup ear and ocking on their door

757
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 2: and asking if they want to spend a little time together?

758
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 2: I mean, genuinely, like, people are social creatures. We're typically curious,

759
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 2: you know, we're typically peaceful if people approach them in

760
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 2: a peaceful manner. And I don't think it's particularly dangerous

761
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 2: to just try and go open a conversation with somebody

762
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 2: who you recognize might feel really differently about your worldview.

763
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 2: One rule that I have, I like a rule of

764
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 2: engagement I have about doing that is just try your

765
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,439
Speaker 2: best to ask two or three questions before you make

766
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: any statements. And so like, when I'm speaking to somebody

767
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 2: who's somebody new and what will happen to me because

768
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 2: of my work, and you know, someone might know me,

769
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 2: or somebody a friend tells them that I write this

770
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 2: politics podcast, they'll come over and just like start drilling

771
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: me with political stuff immediately, you know, like spraying me

772
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 2: with their opinions whatever it is, are peppering me with questions,

773
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 2: and I my rule is just like, don't like get

774
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 2: on your stool and start pontificating out of the gate.

775
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 2: Do your best to ask like two or three questions,

776
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 2: earnest questions, like real genuine questions, and hear the person,

777
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 2: listen to them, pay attention to what they're saying, and

778
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 2: just try to understand them a little bit better before

779
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 2: you start trying to explain anything to them, or you know,

780
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: convince them that your position's right. And that exercise to

781
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 2: me has always you know, entangled me in some sort

782
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 2: of societal fabric way where they'll say something or I'll

783
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 2: hear something that they that they offer that makes me

784
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: think of a friend or a relative, or you know,

785
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 2: I recognize a little bit of who this person is

786
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 2: or where they're from, and I can connect them to

787
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 2: some other part of my life, and that makes me

788
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 2: a little bit more empathetic to whatever else is coming

789
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 2: out of their mouth, or maybe some positions they have

790
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 2: that I find a boor or whatever it is. And so,

791
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 2: you know, I think earnestly asking questions is genuinely you know,

792
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 2: spending time with somebody trying to talk to them is

793
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: a good strategy. And I know it sounds so cheesy

794
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 2: and corny, and people can pretend it's not true, but

795
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 2: it is really genuinely true that the vast majority of people,

796
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 2: not just in the United States but all across the world,

797
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 2: you know, they they care about their family, They care

798
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 2: about safety and security and eating having food on their

799
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 2: table and taking care of their kids, and you know,

800
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 2: growing up in an environment that's kind of safe and

801
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 2: boiling off some steam and having some fun and you know,

802
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 2: everybody smiles and everybody laughs. Everybody can do that. Everybody

803
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 2: has that capacity, and you can reach people who feel

804
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 2: unreachable if you're you know, asking the right questions or

805
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 2: coming into I think with a truly open minded posture.

806
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 2: So that's kind of what I preach and I think

807
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: it's effective in my personal life.

808
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 1: Have you thought about how to get this into the

809
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: education system with high schoolers and college students? Plus what

810
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 1: you mentioned before about the value of steel manning the

811
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: other side's argument, if we could work this into our

812
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: educational system and even this, you know, the simple thing

813
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: of okay, ask two or three questions before you say

814
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,879
Speaker 1: your thing. How would you think about getting that in there?

815
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, So one of my big goals for Tangle actually

816
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 2: is to get more engagement at the high school and

817
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 2: college level. I have a partnership with a poly side

818
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 2: professor at Georgia State University who actually sells a digital

819
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: poly side textbook, and Tangle is part of the textbook,

820
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 2: so included in the textbook yard daily editions of Tangle

821
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: every day, which is really cool. And we have teachers

822
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: from all over the country who are high school teachers

823
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: who are subscribers to the newsletter of the podcast and

824
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 2: have written in and told me, you know, they're using

825
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: editions that we've written about controversial issues as sort of

826
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 2: jumping off points for their classes. You know, it's a

827
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 2: really big problem. I think the education side of it

828
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 2: and bringing kids up, you know, in an environ that

829
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 2: teaches them to be a lot more open minded, and

830
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 2: we need to do it at that age. I mean,

831
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: the question you're asking, in my opinion is really the

832
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: right question, is how do we get the next generation

833
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 2: to a place where they're a lot more open minded

834
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 2: and inquisitive and you know, tolerant of the other side

835
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 2: or people who have different political views in them, because

836
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: I think we're seeing a hardening right now. And you know,

837
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 2: I think the really the really cynical part of me

838
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 2: feels in some ways like, you know, the people who

839
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 2: are in their fifties and sixties and seventies, they are

840
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,919
Speaker 2: not lost, but it's you know, it's like a euphemism

841
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 2: that it's so hard to you know, teach an old

842
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 2: dog nutrix. For a reason, it's it is, And we

843
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 2: need to focus on, like the young people and our

844
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: generation who are coming up next and are entering a

845
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 2: society that is really black and white and really hard

846
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 2: and really ideological right now and break them out of

847
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 2: that because it's getting worse in a lot of ways.

848
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 2: And I think we have a small window to kind

849
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 2: of course correct that. So I'm doing my best to

850
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 2: you know, spread tangle to the masses, and I hope

851
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 2: model some of this, you know, model the way that

852
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 2: I want to see people go about this. But the

853
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 2: more participants the better, and kind of spreading the word

854
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 2: is really one of the only good ways to fight

855
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,320
Speaker 2: back against some of the stuff we're saying.

856
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: Let me trill into that for one second, because I

857
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: know that some people are of the opinion that the

858
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 1: young people are the ones that it's hard to teach

859
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: new tricks to and that as people mature and they gray,

860
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: they think, well, you know, maybe this we've had I've

861
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: seen more things now, I've known people with different opinions.

862
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: I'm just curious that you mentioned fifty sixty seven year

863
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: olds are the ones that are less plastic in their

864
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 1: views and the young people are more plastic.

865
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an interesting point. I mean, I guess I've

866
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 2: heard that framing too, and haven't thought super deeply about

867
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 2: the kind of counter to that. I would say. My

868
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 2: perspective is folks who are older and have been around longer,

869
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 2: I think have a better understanding of the complexity and

870
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 2: the gray that exists between the black and white, but

871
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,399
Speaker 2: they're less willing to move out of whatever their positions are.

872
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 2: And I think that's kind of what I'm more articulating,

873
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 2: is that, you know, if you're a sixty five year

874
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 2: old and you're a lifelong Democratic voter and you know

875
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,959
Speaker 2: you think Trump is the worst thing you've ever seen

876
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,919
Speaker 2: in the history of US politics, I am way more

877
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 2: skeptical that in the next fifteen years you're going to

878
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 2: change your mind about that position than I am if

879
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 2: you're a twenty year old college student who feels that way,

880
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 2: and I know you're about to go through this next

881
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 2: phase of your life and your world's going to change

882
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: and your world's going to evolve, and you know, I

883
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 2: think it's true. I think you make a great point

884
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 2: that a lot of the longer you are around, I

885
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 2: think the more you realize that the world is not

886
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 2: black and white. But I think people also become more

887
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 2: fixed in their positions and less willing to kind of

888
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 2: have their mind changed by other people. And part of that,

889
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 2: I think, part of what scares me I think about

890
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 2: this moment right now in particular, is that we're in

891
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 2: this weird kind of societal moment where a lot of

892
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 2: younger Americans are entering a space where, you know, silence

893
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 2: is complicity. There is a perception that if you are

894
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 2: not tapped into or have a strong opinion about certain

895
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 2: issues that our country is facing, that you are somehow,

896
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 2: you know, part of the problem rather than somebody who's

897
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 2: just ripe to become educated or learn more about an

898
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 2: issue or whatever else it is. And so people feel

899
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: really really compelled to take sides and sort of this

900
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 2: blue versus red culture war that we have right now

901
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 2: that I don't think has always existed the past. And

902
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 2: so a lot of young people that I know and

903
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 2: I'm seeing, you know, on college campuses across the country

904
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:12,439
Speaker 2: are jumping into issues, you know, headfirst in a way

905
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 2: that I'm like, yes, you should care about this, you

906
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 2: should be thinking about this, Like I love seeing this

907
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,399
Speaker 2: civic participation and whatever else it is. But they're doing

908
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 2: it because it's it's almost like a social phenomenon. It's

909
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 2: a community thing. It's not it's not necessarily like an

910
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 2: educational thing that pushed them there or an interest in

911
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: you know, going really deep on this topic and learning

912
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 2: about all the complexities. It's like, oh, all my friends

913
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 2: are doing this thing, or you know, all my friends

914
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 2: have picked this side, and I feel like I need

915
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: to go pick this side. And there's a really really strong,

916
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 2: you know, social pressure, I think in part because of

917
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 2: social media and just also how divided the rest of

918
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: the country is. And I really want to get to

919
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 2: those kids and try and just like teach them that,

920
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 2: you know, it's okay to change your mind. It's okay

921
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 2: to not have a position yet, it's okay to say

922
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 2: you're still learning, and it's okay to feel really radically

923
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 2: passionate about a certain issue if like you spent the

924
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 2: requisite time to learn about it, and that that's kind

925
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 2: of like what I'm hoping to get out there a

926
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 2: little bit. And I think sort of the distinction I

927
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 2: see between the older and younger generations.

928
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: One more question. So you and I both think a

929
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:23,800
Speaker 1: lot about how to maintain curiosity and hopefully humility about

930
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 1: our political opinions. But it's tough, right and you recently

931
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: posted on x that things seem so fraud right now

932
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: that sometimes you feel tempted just to run back to

933
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 1: your side to people who agree with you and just

934
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: quit talking about it and quit being out there in

935
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: public advocating for curiosity and humility.

936
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 2: So how do you stay strong on that?

937
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: How do you stay somebody who says, you know what,

938
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep trying to understand the different sides

939
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: of this.

940
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, first of all, I pace myself, you know.

941
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,479
Speaker 2: I think one thing that's really important for someone who's

942
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 2: in my line of work is that, you know, you

943
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 2: can't spend ten hours with your head down just reading

944
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 2: the news and watching you know, videos of what's happening

945
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 2: in war zones across the world, or you know, congressional

946
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 2: hearings or whatever else it is. You actually have to

947
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 2: separate yourself from that and go live your day to

948
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 2: day life and experience the world as it is right

949
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: in front of you, to stay really grounded and to

950
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 2: understand that, you know, not everything is what's happening on

951
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 2: the kind of political fringes and whether it's in congress

952
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 2: or in war zones or whatever else it is. So

953
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 2: I try really hard to just like get some space

954
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 2: from that and take breaks and live and experience, you know,

955
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: the things that I'm talking about myself. And I also

956
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 2: just think we are sort of programmed in a way

957
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 2: to remember and focus on and emphasize the negative feedback

958
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,479
Speaker 2: we get and not necessarily the positive feedback we get.

959
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: And I know in my work, when somebody writes in

960
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:09,320
Speaker 2: really critically or says something that's really sharp or biting

961
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 2: about something I've said or my writing, that's the thing

962
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 2: that I spend all day thinking about. It's not the

963
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 2: email from somebody telling me your news source is like

964
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 2: the best thing that's ever happened to me. I'm so

965
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 2: glad to be a subscriber. And I could get ten

966
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 2: of those emails and one of the kind of biting ones,

967
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 2: and I'll think about the biting one the rest of

968
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 2: the day, and I just dismissed the other ten. And

969
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 2: so I've tried to be a lot more intentional about like,

970
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 2: you know, focusing on the people who are standing up

971
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: and clapping and saying we want more of this, like

972
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 2: this is what I've been looking for, and remembering that

973
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 2: like those people are relying on folks like me to

974
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,439
Speaker 2: kind of step into the fray. And you know, as

975
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 2: I like to say, like I'm going to war with

976
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 2: partisan news, like that's the battle that I have is

977
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 2: that there's a lot of people out there who are

978
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 2: intentionally turning the temperature up when they don't need to.

979
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 2: That's going to happen organically. We don't need to manufacture that.

980
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 2: But they're doing it on purpose, and I'm trying to

981
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 2: fight against those people. That's sort of my quote unquote

982
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 2: enemy is the people who are trying to turn the

983
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 2: temperature up. And I just want people to be more

984
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 2: informed and have a more holistic view of things. And

985
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 2: when I feel that exhaustion, I just like step away,

986
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 2: give myself a little bit of a break, and then

987
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 2: try and focus on and remember the people who are

988
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 2: I know are like rooting for us and rooting for

989
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 2: me and rooting for my company, and want what we're

990
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 2: doing to kind of prevail, and hope that they just

991
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 2: stick around and keep supporting us.

992
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 1: Well, keep up the strong work, Isaac. There are many

993
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: of us who are rooting for you, and we thank

994
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:43,839
Speaker 1: you a lot.

995
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 2: Thank you, I appreciate that man.

996
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: That was my interview with Isaac Soahl from Tangle. I

997
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: highly recommend his newsletter, which is one of the few outlets,

998
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: along with some others that I list in my show notes,

999
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:04,839
Speaker 1: that operates at a different level of curious intelligence. It

1000
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: doesn't simply plug into our limbic systems to get us

1001
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 1: angry and verify that we're right and those others are wrong.

1002
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 1: But instead this pushes us into the prefrontal cortex, forcing

1003
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: us to think about multiple points of view. One does

1004
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 1: not have to agree with the other points of view,

1005
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: and one may still feel dismissive towards them, but at

1006
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 1: least one sees that reasonable people can hold different points

1007
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: of view, can wrestle internally with deeply uncomfortable issues, can

1008
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: even feel lost and confused about issues. Rather than pretending

1009
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 1: that everything is black and white, this sort of approach

1010
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 1: values a wide embrace of society rather than dismissing half

1011
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 1: the population. If we have any hopes of retrieving a

1012
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: more communicative and less polarized world, it's only going to

1013
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: be having a willingness to expand our viewpoint just a

1014
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:06,759
Speaker 1: little bit, to not assume that everything is our way

1015
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 1: or the highway, and to force ourselves at all moments

1016
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 1: to see and celebrate our common humanity.

1017
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:21,959
Speaker 2: Go to Eagleman dot.

1018
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 1: Com slash podcast for more information and to find further reading.

1019
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,720
Speaker 1: Send me an email at podcast at eagleman dot com

1020
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 1: with any questions or discussion, and check out and subscribe

1021
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,800
Speaker 1: to Inner Cosmos on YouTube for videos of each episode

1022
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,720
Speaker 1: and to leave comments until next time. I'm David Eagleman

1023
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: and this is Inner Cosmos.