WEBVTT - How Ukraine Delivers the Mail During Wartime 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:15.760 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:21.280 Hello and welcome to another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:22.800 I'm Tracy Alloway. 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:23.640 And I'm Joe Wysenthal. 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:25.880 Joe, do you ever order stuff online? 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:26.440 Yes? 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:30.000 Don't mean just like Amazon day to day stuff. I 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:32.360 mean like, do you go out looking for interesting things 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:33.040 to buy online? 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:34.600 Every run's a log at the edge. You know what 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:35.479 I bought yesterday? 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:36.800 What a guitar? 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:39.920 No, I thought I have bought guitars online too many? 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:40.360 Uh. 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:44.800 A hat from the nineties from the Bureau of Reclamation 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:50.320 celebrating like the fiftieth anniversary of the building of the 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:52.360 Hoover Dam. Wait, and I'm going to win. 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:53.000 I want one. 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:54.960 Yeah, it's really it's a baseball cast. I'll show it 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:56.640 to you after this. It's really cool. I'm gonna wear 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:58.680 it at our next concert. I think it's really cool looking. 0:00:58.800 --> 0:00:59.600 I'm very jealous. 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:00.640 Yeah, it's good ones. 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:01.160 All right. 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.080 Well, I buy stuff all the time. My husband does 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.720 a similar thing and buys lots of vintage not baseball hats, 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:09.119 but Rugby shirts. 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:09.880 Oh it's cool. 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:12.680 And the other day he ordered a Rugby shirt off 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.479 of eBay and it showed up a few weeks later, 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.800 and to both of our surprise, it had come from 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.240 Ukraine and specifically a place called Zapporosia. 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.960 Huh. And it was not like a Ukrainian jersey or 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:27.360 something like that. It just happened to be sent for 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:29.440 It happened to be sent from Ukraine. I can't remember 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.520 exactly which jersey it was, but I was kind of 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:35.800 surprised because it was in this like perfect little box. 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:36.120 You know. 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:38.280 It took a while to get to the US, but 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:42.399 not an inordinate amount of time, and it piqued my 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:45.000 interest and it got me thinking, how in the world 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.480 is the Ukraine still shipping things in the middle of 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:49.840 a military conflict. 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:51.720 Yeah, I mean it's pretty striking. 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:52.120 You know. 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.720 We talked one time about palettes in the context of 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:58.720 the war and this idea that like logistics is the 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:02.400 key to keeping everything and going and good disciplined logistics, 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.760 et cetera. But the idea that you could quickly get 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:08.440 a pristine package from eBay to the US in the 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:12.120 middle of an ongoing conflict does extraordinary and raises questions 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:14.960 about like, how do you keep day to day operations 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:19.120 of a sort of crucial delivery infrastructure such as postal service, 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:23.079 whether shipping internationally or just shipping domestically, going under such 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:24.640 extreme conditions. 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:26.480 Right, and also, how does the role of the postal 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:30.640 service actually change during wartime? I imagine shipping rugbys to my 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:34.000 husband in the US is probably not an essential service 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:36.959 at the moment, but Ukraine is using the postal service 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:40.960 to send medicines and aids and cash and things like that. 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:43.919 So we should talk about this. I'd love to, and 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:45.840 I am very pleased to say we do, in fact 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.560 have the perfect guest. We're going to be speaking with 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:53.240 Igor Smolanski. He is the CEO of the Ukrainian National 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:58.200 postal operator uker Pushta, and before heading Ukraine's postal service, 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.600 he also worked at KPM and Boston Consulting Group. So 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:05.280 really a perfect all thoughts guest, a supply chain expert 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.040 with a side interest in finance. That's how I'm putting it. 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:10.359 Let's do it all right, Igor, Thank you so much 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:10.919 for coming on. 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:12.800 All thoughts, Thank you for inviting me. 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.960 So first of all, thank you for getting packages to me. 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:19.800 I appreciate it, my husband appreciates it. I have since 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:23.560 ordered things that came from Kiev as well, knowingly ordered 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:27.280 stuff from Kiev, and those also came in pristine condition. 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:31.160 Can you describe maybe just the challenges that the postal 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.280 service is facing at the moment. How much have things 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:38.120 changed now versus you know, pre twenty twenty two. 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.400 I mean, obviously had changed a lot, Like as an example, 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.160 we used to have five flights per week to New York, 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.720 which would allow us to quickly deliver parcels to the US. 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:51.720 And by the way, parcels to the US is about 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:53.720 fifty percent of our expert volumes. 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:55.840 Wow, over one point three. 0:03:55.760 --> 0:04:00.320 Million Ukrainian SQUS assault on Amazon, eBay and Etsy. Huh, 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:05.400 So it's actually thousands of small businesses, jobs, people that 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:06.720 do things for the dogs. 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:11.200 Fashion Ukrainian fashion is very popular, things for the houses. 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:15.360 So and we understood that if you stopped delivering, these 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:16.760 people will lose their jobs. 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.440 And you can imagine during the war you cannot get 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:20.480 the jobs easily. 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:25.000 And so we had to face in one day that 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.600 there are normal flights, there are no flights from Ukraine. 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.280 At the same time, if you don't deliver on time 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:35.760 on eBay or Amazon or Etsy, you're eating as a 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:36.919 seller drops. 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:37.760 So which is. 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:40.680 Why we had to do what we could to make 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:44.640 sure things are delivered, and we moved to new logistical routes. 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.440 So during the war, hopefully not that many people know it, 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:51.160 but during the war you have a curfew which means 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.320 you cannot drive at night, and usually the mail is 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:55.599 delivered overnight. 0:04:56.360 --> 0:05:01.840 So we recalled that. Twenty five years ago we moved 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:02.760 the mail via train. 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:05.360 So I met with a friend of mine who's ahead 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.240 of Ukrainian railways, and in five days. 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:10.240 We're zoom moving a mail by a railway. 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.479 So we're moving, for example, from Kiev to Leviev and 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:15.880 from there we take the truck and it goes to 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.640 Warsaw or Frankfort or London, and from there it flies 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:21.599 to New York and then it's delivered to you. 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:23.279 Right now. 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.200 We strive to deliver to any points in the US 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.640 within two weeks maximum, which means we have twenty four 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.680 hours turned around in Ukraine, about two or three days 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:34.279 on the road, and then it gets on the plane. 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.200 It's challenging, but we're making things happen. 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:39.600 So, for example, be a railway, we've already moved over 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:40.919 twenty million parcels. 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.680 Talk to us about the domestic need. I think you 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:47.920 mentioned it's not just a postal service, but a pharmacy 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.599 as well. Talk to us about the main internal priorities 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:52.640 of delivering the mail. 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.520 Sure, I mean Ukraine is the largest country in Europe, 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:58.400 and not it's only the largest. There are twenty seven 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:02.320 thousand cities and villages in Ukraine, and many of those 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.599 very small, up to one hundred people or five hundred people. 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.080 As you can imagine, during the war giving refugees, they 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.400 did not get any larger. What it means is in 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:16.440 those villages there are no pharmacists, there are no banks. 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:20.440 Actually banks only remain in four percent of cities in 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:24.120 villages in Ukraine, and you have to make sure these 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.640 people do geir stuff. Plus, when we talk about the 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:31.920 occupied areas, Russians destroyed the entire infrastructure, which means when 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.800 Ukraine the occupies these villages for about five to six weeks, 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:40.080 you don't have mobile connection, you don't have electricity. But 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.120 we have to work because you cannot leave people in 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.800 the vacuum. Not to mention, they would operate in Russian 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.159 rubles and you want to bring them back to Ukraine, 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:50.599 so you have to bring them Ukrainian currency and we 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.880 at the first company they see, we usually come two 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:54.640 three days. 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:55.279 After the occupation. 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.000 We just give time to the miners to demine the 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:02.800 fields so we cantively safely operate and very structured our 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:06.880 operations so we can work with or without power and electricity. 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:09.880 Thanks to starting from Milan masks and. 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:13.360 About fifteen hundred generators, we now have built a system 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:17.280 which can work whenever under any conditions. So we had 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:20.480 to change our processes to make sure we deliver pensions 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:23.120 in cash because obviously if there are no electricity of 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.640 ATM doesn't work, well, post terminal doesn't work. But people 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:29.160 still need to live. I mean they have little bazaars, 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:35.280 they work. So we basically create the ecosystem of life 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.440 around those small villages and we keep it going. 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.480 What's the labor situation like at the moment, I mean 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:45.480 you mentioned d mining. It sounds like this is a 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:48.880 risky job. Here in the US, we have a postal 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:53.160 worker shortage, even without having to worry about military conflict. 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:57.480 I mean it's a severe shortage. You can imagine. 0:07:57.520 --> 0:07:59.960 First of all, we have to separate mail and feel 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:04.000 works right, and you can imagine there are many male 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:07.920 populations in the army. Second, we have lots of refugees 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:12.800 and so I mean we understand it's a big problem. 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.640 So for example, now to attract personnel, we have to 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:18.320 make sure that our offices are equipped for people with 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:21.640 disabilities so we can get them to work. We're trying 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:26.040 the best we can to implement automatic sorting lines. 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:27.320 Our goal for this ya. 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:29.680 I know it sounds weird during the war, but we 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.600 want to be one hundred percent digital even when there's 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.440 no digital meaning we build a system where in the 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:40.160 morning our mail carriers will download through startling and generators 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:43.240 the data worker during the day and then upload the 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:45.680 data at night, which means again we are not dependent 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:49.400 on the infrastructure. If rustions you know, shut down the 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:51.160 electricity or mobile or anything. 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:52.920 So we're doing. 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:57.320 Our best to increase efficiency to maintain as normal life 0:08:57.320 --> 0:08:58.360 for people as possible. 0:08:58.400 --> 0:08:58.960 Why, you can. 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:01.559 Imagine there is no rush of new stores opening in 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:05.160 Ukraine right now, there are no rush of new banks 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:11.200 and pharmacies. So the e commerce becomes this tool to 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.600 maintain a sense of normalcy even on the front lines. 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.400 So for example, we have lots of soldiers that would 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:23.840 order something on Amazon or on Alibaba, power bank or 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:27.840 the sacks or stuff for whatever they need and they'll delivered, 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:32.440 So you know, the e commerce becomes the tool to 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.319 keep you connected to the world even when the world 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:37.080 is in a difficult situation. 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:41.679 I'm actually curious you mentioned starlink. I don't know that 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:45.480 much about it, but I'm curious. Are there efficiency gains 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:49.920 or infrastructure gains that you've discovered with the use of 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:55.439 starlink satellite internet such that when there's a proper rebuilding 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.040 phase that there are things that will never have to 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.480 be rebuilt in their original form because of I guess 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.200 they say some sort of leap frogging or efficiency that 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.800 you've discovered out of this period of dress good question. 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.920 No, absolutely, I mean, you know, we don't want to 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:15.160 discuss Elon and his views, but the Starling has been 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.280 really a saber to us. You won't be able to 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.320 run internet cables in those areas, right, I mean, it 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.880 just will be millions of dollars. Probably it will run 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:27.600 through the field which you need to demine, and then 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:29.520 Russians can vum it again and it can. 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:30.520 Go off, et cetera. 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:35.120 So via Starling you're flexible enough, then you well, when 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:38.080 you combine Starling and the generator, when you combine the two, 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:41.760 you're basically no longer dependent on the central infrastructure and 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.400 you can provide civil height services right away, not you know, 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:50.240 not five months after the occupation, not three months after 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:52.960 Russian destroyed the buildings today like for example, it was 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:56.080 in our case, so very built it. They put up 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:59.200 the startling generator and they get back to work. So 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:01.920 you know, it's like a theory of broken windows. You 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.000 cannot have that. You should have the services, and the 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:09.200 starlink allows you to have that connection to the world. 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.600 So I take the point about starlink and also switching 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.400 from driving the mail to going by rail. But there 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:20.600 must be areas that you just cannot get mail to 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.960 at the moment, I mean the occupied areas for instance, 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:28.720 how widespread are those I guess pockets of non service? 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:34.320 I mean roughly twenty percent of Ukrainian territories occupied by Russians. 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.839 We try to be creative. If you talk strictly about 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:41.480 the law, there is a Geneva Convention, so if Russia 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:46.640 occupies certain area, they're responsible for wellbeing of people there. Obviously, 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:51.959 annoying Russia the world responsible is you know exaggeration. So 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.880 for example, in her song when her son was occupied 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.560 by Russians. We wanted to keep Ukrainian pensions going because 0:11:58.600 --> 0:11:59.280 we wanted. 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:00.800 People feel the part of Ukraine. 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:03.319 So what we've done is, for example, we knew we 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:07.440 could not get cash to the occupied area. What we did, 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.600 for example, we agreed to small shops like in a 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:16.400 bakery shop or gas stations or barbershops that they would 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:18.839 give us cash and we would pay the bills in 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:22.120 Ukrainian territories and we would use that cash to pay 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.680 you know, grand grandma and grandpa the attensions, so they 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:27.600 would come back again to the store. And this way 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:32.080 we kept Grivna operation Ukrainian currency going even under Nursian occupation. 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.080 They did not understand how the grin uh you know, 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:37.760 got to the occupied area. But you know, when youre 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.079 creative enough even make things happen. 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.719 How do you protect cash? I mean, obviously in the 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.240 US and we have the instructions and there's a whole 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:06.320 separate infrastructure for cash management that's separate from the normal 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:08.400 postal service and their guards on the trucks and all 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.679 that has cash delivery always been an important role that 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.680 the postal service is played in Ukraine. And how do 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:18.080 you think about protecting those packages versus sort of more 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:18.680 normal mail. 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:21.599 No. Absolutely, they always been important. 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:23.880 Why because you know, in small villages, if you don't 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.560 have banking infrastructure, the cash is the king in you know, 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.000 in reality, because if for example, if you have a 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:32.400 bank card but no way to use it, you're not going. 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:34.200 To use it, so you're going to stay in cash. 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.040 We always had, I mean, we have lots of people 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.440 with guns to protect it. When we talk about the 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.240 areas close to the front lines, we get help from 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:47.160 the army that you know basically drives is our trucks 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:50.280 to make sure they're protected and make sure we delivered. 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.000 So we have the whole entire system of controls, of 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.760 monitoring of our armed guards to help. 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:58.200 Us deliver deliver cash. 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.040 I mean, that's the reason I've set a goal to 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.440 build one hundred percent digital infrastructure and every single village 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:07.559 so we can reduce the cash. So for example, right 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:09.560 now in the village, you cannot use the bank card. 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:12.480 We are now trying to get the banking license and 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.360 certain basically devices that we're building that people will be 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.120 able to use banking and e commerce infrastructure and every 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.200 single village. You know, basically it's like ecosystems. So right 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:24.520 now we pay pension in cash. You know, you get 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:28.320 your retirement payments in cash, and then you pay us 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.040 for utility bills, you pays for the food, you pays 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.520 for the medicine. So we can convert all of it 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.600 into a none cash format. Will it happen right away now? 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:40.080 But slowly once we build this digital infrastructure we can. 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.760 That reminds me a project like that, it sounds like 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.360 it costs money, So how is that being financed? And 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.840 then more broadly, how is uker post a finance Because 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.080 here in the US there is a perpetual, ongoing discussion 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:56.200 over the financial health of the US postal service and 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:58.640 whether it should be treated like a private enterprise or 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.560 a public service. I'm curious how it's done in Ukraine. 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:04.680 Well, I mean, coming from the US, you know, I'm 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:07.880 a big proponent of a non socialist way of working. 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:10.480 So the more independent you are from the government, the 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:14.160 most successful you are. So in Ukraine we are a 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.440 joint stock company where we are not financed by the government. 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:19.440 We're actually paying dividends to the government. 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.840 So anything we do, even during the war, we have 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:24.600 to finance ourselves. 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:25.600 One of the reasons. 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.880 We went to the Parliament and we had asked to 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:33.440 reduce regulation. So, for example, in Ukraine, only first class 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:37.160 mail is now regulated, So only the first class letters 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.320 are regulated by the government, meaning the tariffs and the newspapers. 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.160 Everything else is a market base, which means we set 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.400 the tariffs which we believe cover our cost plus. 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.600 Profit, and that's how we finance separation. 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.960 So our goal is to reduce number of state related 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.000 revenues to less than ten percent. 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.680 You know, I was reading something not in preparation for 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:58.760 this episode specifically, I was actually but I was reading 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.080 a little bit recently about US postal history and the 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:06.600 importance of the US post office and US industrial development. 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.720 And you know, a post office obviously has a postal service, 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:14.600 obviously has a distinct, unique perspective on the sort of 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.640 geography and territory of a population, and you probably have 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.320 some of the best visibility on where people are at 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.000 any given moment. And the name of every road, the 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:28.720 name of every address, how valuable is the information that 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:33.360 must be contained within your organization into the broader I 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.320 guess war effort right now of the government, even if 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.800 it is sort of formerly disconnected. The sort of ability 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.720 of the government to essentially have the insight that only 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.720 a postal service can have about where people are at 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:47.760 any given moment. 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:49.800 I mean in the more than the world. 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:53.120 Obviously, there are different ways of getting that information. Probably 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:56.960 the most reliable is the mobile operators, because vis signal 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.560 you can exactly say how many people are in the 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.520 area in any particular point, and even track. 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:03.600 Down how they move. 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:08.080 Obviously, we're probably the next best choice because we physically 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:11.679 see people, We know how many are there, we know 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.840 the age, so compared to the mobile operators, where they 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.200 just track the signal, we actually know that for example, 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:22.080 people here older, or people here on retirement, or here 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.280 it's a younger population, because you know, for example, you 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.560 have five hundred and hundred people in two villages, but 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.960 one can have all the people on retirement and the 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.080 other can have people of the younger age. For example 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.520 it's a farming village. So we have a better. 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:39.720 Understanding of the economy of a particular area of. 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:44.240 Particular or how fast people are coming back. We see it, 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.639 for example, in how they pay utility bills, because for example, 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:50.200 you can pay utility bills online even when you left 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:51.840 the create right you can be right now in New 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:56.360 York as a refugee and paying your electricity bill online, 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.240 which means if you just track down the payments, you 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:01.439 won't be able to see what the person is actually 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.360 in the village. Look in Harky, Finzo, Parisia or there 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.200 in New York. We know when we take the payments, 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.600 we know exactly how many people are there, because when 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.320 we bring utunity bills, we know they are received or not. 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:16.600 I mean, it does sound like you are working closely 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:21.040 with the Ukrainian military. So you mentioned the demining operations, 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:26.040 armed escorts in some cases, I imagine that wasn't the case 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.880 pre twenty twenty two. Could you maybe talk about how 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:34.240 you built up that relationship with the military, Like what 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.399 were those conversations actually like and how do you start 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:42.119 formalizing a structure of cooperation or information sharing. 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.560 I think that's where Ukraine is stronger than Russia. Russia 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.639 is all about vertical rules and all about you know, 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:54.080 rules written, there's one sar and then you go all 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:57.280 the way down. So the reason Ukraine was overcoming Russia 0:18:57.320 --> 0:18:59.640 at the beginning because we are flexible. For example, our 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.480 million thy commanders have a right to make decisions. Russians don't. 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.560 I even had to negotiate with Russians. It's impossible. They 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.000 don't make any decisions on the ground. Every time they 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:14.119 have to check this mascot. So Uoker POSTA was working 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:17.119 from day one throughout the war. The only day we 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:20.600 did not work was February twenty fourth because I stopped 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.439 all the operations because I could not understand what I 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:27.080 can do to secure lives of people. Every single day 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:31.920 thereafter we continue to work, never stopped, and my day starts. 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.000 We designed the procedure where my day starts. 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.840 We check with the military where it's safe or not 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:41.080 safe today to deliver. We unfortunately lost a few lives 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.639 because we thought it was safe and the military thought 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:46.320 was saved. But Russians extended too fast the first days 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:47.880 of the war and we lost a. 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:49.240 Few people because they attacked. 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.400 So it's a standard procedure where we check with them 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.040 house the situation on the ground today, where do they 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:59.440 think it's okay to go and where we should for example, 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:02.680 se the operations. I just an hour ago I got 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.639 a note from the military in Highkief region that we 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:09.040 should not go near certain areas today because it will 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.560 be dangerous. And that's how we work in you know, chats, 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:17.240 in messengers, in communication where you have to quickly make 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.200 a decision. The most difficult part was, you know, it's 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.760 a war, so where do you delegate and where you 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:26.720 make decisions like in the army. So I had to 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.800 find the balance between decisions that I make and I 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:30.920 am physically able to make. 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.720 Because in terms of the US, we have like twenty. 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:37.000 Four states, so I had to make decisions each each 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:39.840 and every one of them, and where do they delegate? 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.360 So I build a system where I have kedo regions 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:46.000 and they allow to make certain decisions, certain decisions. They 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:50.600 have to agree with me in different messengers you know, signal, telegram, 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.679 et cetera, and we make it quickly and then we go. 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.000 So we're trying to be as informal as possible and 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:57.160