1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: I've been thinking about terrible US Supreme Court decisions for 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: some reason. 7 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: Gosh, I can't imagine why. 8 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if you're imagining that the reason is 9 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: because of that request to have the Supreme Court overturn Obergefell, 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 2: that's not the reason, because that happened after I emailed 11 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 2: you this outline. Yeah, like three hours later were all 12 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 2: the headlines about the Supreme Court being asked to overturn Obergefell. 13 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 2: I had been thinking about that conceptually. I had been 14 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 2: more thinking about birthright citizenship. 15 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: Uh huh. 16 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 2: Anyway, just I've been thinking a lot about the Supreme Court, 17 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: and that reminded me that for a long time, I've 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 2: wanted to do an episode on Buck versus Bell, which 19 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 2: has come up in past episodes of our show related 20 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 2: to the eugenics movement. Buck versus Bell is the nineteen 21 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 2: twenty seven Supreme Court decision that upheld the constitutionality of 22 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 2: laws allowing or mandating the involuntary sterilization of people who 23 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 2: were deemed to be somehow unfit. We've talked about the 24 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: existence of this case and the outcome before, but we 25 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 2: have not really talked about the details of what led 26 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 2: up to it. Most of these sterilization laws that this 27 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 2: relates to have been repealed in the US, but Buck 28 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 2: versus Bell has never been directly overturned. There's like a 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: patchwork of other decisions and legal lines of reasoning that 30 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 2: kind of undermine it today, But the decision itself still stands, 31 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: and at the same time, the lines of thought that 32 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: led to Buck versus Bell continue you to influence how 33 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: disability and disability rights are discussed today. The text of 34 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 2: the decision is one of the straightforwardly offensive things that 35 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 2: we will be reading from in this episode, and the 36 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: case also involved a rape allegation that was never investigated. Also, 37 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: part of the underlying philosophy of the eugenics movement is 38 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: the incorrect and again offensive idea that disabled people are 39 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 2: a burden on society and the cause of a range 40 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: of societal problems, and therefore should not exist. So I 41 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 2: want to say up front that disability is a normal 42 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 2: part of the human experience, and society is what creates 43 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 2: these systemic burdens through ableism by refusing to see every 44 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 2: person is having the same innate worth, and by refusing 45 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: to provide the care and support and tools that would 46 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: be needed to make the world accessible. We're in the 47 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 2: United States here, we are totally up for spending infinite 48 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: money on parking spaces, but balk at the idea of 49 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 2: making some of them accessible. As an example, yeah, the 50 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: Buck in Buck versus Bell was Carrie Elizabeth Buck born 51 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 2: on July second, nineteen oh six. Her father, Frank Buck, 52 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: was a tenor, and her mother was Emma Harlow Buck. 53 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 2: Carrie had a brother named Roy and a sister named Doris, 54 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: and their lives are not documented very well, and a 55 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 2: lot of the documentation that does exist comes from court 56 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 2: testimony that was being used to build the case that 57 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 2: Carrie should not be allowed to reproduce, so that testimony 58 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 2: can't necessarily be taken at face value. In nineteen twenty, 59 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: when Carrie would have been about fourteen, her mother, Emma, 60 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: was admitted to the Virginia State Colony for Epileptics and 61 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: Feeble Minded near Lynchburg, which had originally been founded in 62 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: nineteen ten as a colony for men with epilepsy. Emma 63 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: was forty eight, and she was described at that as 64 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 2: a widow and as having a history of illnesses that 65 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 2: included pneumonia, rheumatism, and syphilis. When she was admitted, she 66 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 2: was described as being nervous and restless and was diagnosed 67 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 2: with having a mental deficiency. Records from that colony describe 68 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 2: her as a moron, which was one of the terms 69 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 2: that was being used as a diagnosis of intellectual disability. 70 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: When Emma was admitted to the colony, her daughter Carrie 71 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: had been in foster care for about a decade. Carrie's 72 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: foster parents were John and Alice Dobbs, who lived in Charlottesville, Virginia. 73 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: The Dobbses later claims that Carrie had started to show 74 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: evidence of feeble mindedness at the age of ten or eleven. 75 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: So feeble minded was this catch all term that was 76 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: being used to describe people with a whole assortment of 77 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: traits and behaviors, and this included people with learning disabilities, 78 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: mood disorders, mental illnesses, behavioral disorders, and drug or alcohol addictions, 79 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: as well as unmarried women who were sexually active or 80 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: who behaved irresponsibly or quote wildly just as examples. Sometimes 81 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: people who were described as feeble minded were just living 82 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: in poverty without a lot of access to education and resources. 83 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: Although men could also be diagnosed as feeble minded, more 84 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: of the focus was on women. 85 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: In a law passed in nineteen sixteen, the Commonwealth of 86 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 2: Virginia defined feeble minded this way, quote any person with 87 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 2: mental defectiveness from birth or from an early age, but 88 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: not a congenital idiot, so pronounced that he is incapable 89 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 2: of caring for himself, for managing his affairs, or of 90 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 2: being taught to do so, and is unsafe and dangerous 91 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 2: to himself and to others and to the community, and 92 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 2: who consequently requires care, supervision, and control for the protection 93 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 2: and welfare of himself of other end of the community, 94 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 2: but who is not classible as an insane person as 95 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 2: usually interpreted. 96 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: So Carrie supposedly started showing signs of being feeble minded 97 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: around age ten or eleven, and that is also around 98 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 1: the time that the Dobbses took her out of school. 99 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: She had done fairly well up until the sixth grade, 100 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: and after this she did domestic work around the dobbs home. 101 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: A couple of sources on this case described this as 102 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: the Dobbses taking her out of school because they wanted 103 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: her as a household servant. 104 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 2: Then, when Carrie was seventeen, she became pregnant and the 105 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: Dobbses started claiming that she was of low moral character. 106 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 2: They also had other foster children, and they were worried 107 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 2: about what would happen if child welfare workers learned that 108 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: they had a pregnant teenager in the house. So the 109 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: dobbs Is said that they could not afford to care 110 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 2: for Carrie anymore, and they petitioned for her to be 111 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 2: admitted to the Virginia State Colony for Epileptics and feeble minded. 112 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 2: Everyone seems to agree that the father of Carrie's baby 113 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: was Clarence Garland. That was Alice Dobbs's nephew. Carrie and 114 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: Clarence knew each other from school, and Clarence had come 115 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 2: to visit her during the summer of nineteen twenty three 116 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: when Alice Dobbs, who was the one who was really 117 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: responsible for the children, was out of town. In Carrie's words, 118 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: during this visit, Clarence forced himself on her and took 119 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: advantage of her. 120 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: At one point. She also said he had promised to 121 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: marry her but did not. Rape was obviously illegal under 122 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: Virginia law, and so was seduction under a promise of marriage, 123 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: but Carrie's allegations were never investigated. 124 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 2: Carrie underwent a commitment hearing and was ordered to be 125 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: admitted to the Virginia Colony, which is where her mother 126 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: also was, on January twenty third, nineteen twenty four, but 127 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: the colony was not accepting pregnant patients. Officials did think 128 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 2: that she should be removed from the Dobbs home, though, 129 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: so Carrie was sent to live with another family until 130 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: after the birth of her daughter, Vivian Alice Elaine Buck, 131 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: on March twenty eighth, nineteen twenty four. 132 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: Although the Dobbses had claimed they couldn't afford to take 133 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: care of Carrie, they did agree to take custody of 134 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: her daughter under the condition that they'd be allowed to 135 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: send Vivian to the Colony if she showed any signs 136 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: of feeble mindedness. So Carrie's child was sent to live 137 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: with relatives of the man that she alleged had raped her. 138 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 2: Carrie arrived at the colony on June fourth, nineteen twenty four, 139 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: and Robert G. Sheldon became her state appointed guardian. A 140 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 2: few months later, on September tenth, the colony prepared a 141 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 2: list of patients who were candidates for sterilization under Virginia's 142 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: Sterilization Act of nineteen twenty four. Carrie was one of 143 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: the people on that list. 144 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: So we need to back up for a minute and 145 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: talk about this law and the eugenics movement that it 146 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: was part of. As people started learning more about genetics 147 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: and heredity in the nineteenth century, eugenicists started to propose 148 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 1: that human reproduction be approached along the same lines as 149 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: breeding livestock for the betterment of the human race. The 150 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: term eugenics was coined by Francis Galton in eighteen eighty three, 151 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: basically meaning good breeding. This movement included both positive eugenics, 152 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: or encouraging people with so called good genes to have 153 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: more babies together, and negative eugenics, or preventing people with 154 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: supposedly bad genes from reproducing. Some of the traits that 155 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: eugenicists were concerned with do have some kind of genetic component, 156 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: but they also blamed so called bad genes for things 157 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: like juvenile delinquency, immorality, criminal behavior, and that catch all 158 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: of feeble mindedness. These ideas were all so interconnected with 159 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: scientific racism. There was an underlying assumption that people with 160 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: European ancestry, specifically northern and Western European ancestry, had the 161 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: best genes. This movement did have critics from its very beginnings. 162 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: One of those was GK. Chesterton, who we talked about 163 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: on the show in March of twenty twenty three. But 164 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: eugenics was incredibly widely accepted, especially in North America and Europe, 165 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: but also in other parts of the world. In the US, 166 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: by the late nineteen twenties, most high school biology textbooks 167 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: presented eugenics as an established fact. Eugenics was also taught 168 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: in hundreds of colleges and universities around the country, and 169 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: there were eugenic supporters among some of the same populations 170 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 1: that were targeted by the movement, and there were laws 171 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: related to this. Obvious examples include laws that prohibited people 172 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: with epilepsy and the so called feeble man from getting married. 173 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: The first of these laws in the US was passed 174 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: in Connecticut in eighteen ninety six. There were also laws 175 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: allowing or mandating that such people be sterilized starting with 176 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 1: the law in Indiana in nineteen oh seven, but laws 177 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: prohibiting interracial marriage were also eugenics laws because they were 178 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: meant to protect white racial purity. So was the Federal 179 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: Immigration Act of nineteen twenty four, which limited immigration from 180 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: some countries while banning it from others, with no quotas 181 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: on the countries that were considered to be genetically desirable. 182 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: After Indiana's nineteen oh seven sterilization law, other states passed 183 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: laws of their own. Although eugenics was generally accepted, these 184 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: laws could be controversial. In addition to people who opposed 185 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: the basic idea of eugenics, there were religious denominations that 186 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 1: saw it as an affront to a divine commandment meant 187 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: to be fruitful and multiply. There were people who also 188 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: thought government mandated surgeries were tyranny, along with anything else 189 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 1: that limited personal autonomy and freedom. Some sterilization bills were vetoed, 190 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: and some laws were repealed after different legislators took office. 191 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: Many of the early sterilization laws also faced court challenges 192 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: and were struck down, including Indiana's law, which was ruled 193 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: unconstitutional by the Indiana Supreme Court in nineteen twenty one 194 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: Carrie Buck lived in Virginia, as we've said, and we 195 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: will get to Virginia's eugenics laws after a sponsor break. 196 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: Virginia's nineteen sixteen Act to Define Feeble Mindedness, which we 197 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: read from earlier, didn't specifically allow sterilization procedures on the 198 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: so called feeble minded, but it did did it include 199 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: language allowing medical and surgical treatment that would quote tend 200 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: to the mental and physical betterment of patients. Superintendent Albert 201 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: Sidney Pretty of the Virginia Colony used that language to 202 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: justify sterilizing patients there, arguing that it was for their 203 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: mental and physical betterment. This included Willie Mallory and her 204 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: daughter Jesse, both of whom were held at the colony 205 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: and sterilized. Another of Willy's daughters, Nanny Mallory, was also 206 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: held with a plan for her to be sterilized. Willy's husband, George, 207 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,839 Speaker 1: filed suit, and while the court ruled that these surgeries 208 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: had been medically necessary, it also ordered the colony to 209 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: release the Malories. 210 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 2: While Superintendent Pretty was interpreting that nineteen sixteen law as 211 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 2: allowing these sterilizations, he and the board at the colony 212 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 2: also recognized that continuing to ue them could put them 213 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 2: at legal risk, so Pretty went to his attorney, his 214 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 2: longtime friend, Aubrey Strode. Strode was serving in the Virginia Senate, 215 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 2: and Pretty talked to him about getting legislation passed that 216 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 2: would explicitly allow sterilization surgeries on the feeble minded and 217 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: protect the people who were performing them. 218 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: Strode drafted a bill that was patterned after a model 219 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: eugenical sterilization law that had been included in Harry Hamilton 220 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: Laughlin's nineteen twenty two book, Eugenical Sterilization in the United States. 221 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: This book documented the sterilization laws that had been passed 222 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: in the US, along with the various legal and legislative 223 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: challenges they had faced. Laughlin had kept all these challenges 224 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: in mind when drafting the model law, and he had 225 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: written it with the goal that if it ever became law, 226 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: courts would find it to be constitutional. 227 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 2: Virginia's version of this law was passed in March of 228 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty four. It authorized the superintendents of Virginia's state 229 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 2: run hospitals and the State Colony for Epileptics and Feeble 230 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,479 Speaker 2: Minded to perform sterilizations or cause them to be performed 231 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 2: if it was in the best interests of the patients 232 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 2: and society. The supplied to quote any patient confined in 233 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 2: such institutions afflicted with hereditary forms of insanity that are 234 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 2: recurrent idiocy, imbecility, feeble mindedness, or epilepsy, provided that such 235 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: superintendent shall have first complied with the requirements of this Act. 236 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: The law also outlined various steps that needed to be 237 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: taken before a surgery could be performed, and it specified 238 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: that quote Neither any of said superintendents, nor any other 239 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: person legally participating in the execution of the provisions of 240 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: this Act, shall be liable either civilly or criminally on 241 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: account of said participations. 242 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 2: As we said earlier, and September of nineteen twenty four, 243 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: the staff at the colony prepared a list of candidates 244 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: to be sterilized under this law, and Carrie Buck was 245 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 2: one of them. But Superintendent Pretty and the board wanted 246 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: to make sure that this law would be upheld in 247 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 2: court so that they would not be criminally liable before 248 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 2: he went ahead with actually doing all of these surgeries, 249 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: so he issued the order for Carrie to be sterilized 250 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 2: and then asked her guardian Robert G. Shelton to appeal it. 251 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: Carrie Buck was chosen for this case because her mother, Emma, 252 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: was also a resident at the colony and had been 253 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: diagnosed as a moron, and because Carrie also had a 254 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: child of her own, who Pretty assumed would be feeble minded. 255 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: The idea behind these laws was that so called feeble 256 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: minded people should be stopped from reproducing so they would 257 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: not pass down their genetic taint to another generation. So Emma, Carrie, 258 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: and Vivian Buck were supposed to service proof that feeble 259 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: mindedness was inherited and that it was in everyone's best 260 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: interest to prevent Carrie from becoming pregnant again. Pretty went 261 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: through the steps to issue an order for Carrie to 262 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: be sterilized, and at Pretty's request, her guardian, Robert G. Shelton, 263 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: appealed it. 264 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 2: Pretty's attorney was Aubrey Strode, the state senator who had 265 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 2: drafted the law. The board of the Colony appointed Irving P. 266 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: Whitehead to represent Carrie Buck. Whitehead had been a founding 267 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: member of the board of the Virginia State Colony for 268 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 2: Epileptics and Feeble Minded and had been serving on that 269 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: board when it approved the sterilizations of Willie and Jesse Mallory. 270 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: He was also a longtime friend of both Strode and Pretty, 271 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: and so if you're thinking this sounds like somebody who 272 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,959 Speaker 2: would be working to protect the interests of Pretty and 273 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 2: the colony rather than of Carrie Buck, you are correct. 274 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: This case was heard before the Amherst count Circuit Court 275 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: on November eighteenth, nineteen twenty four. Strode called several witnesses 276 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: from the Charlottesville area who claimed to know of Carrie 277 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: or her family or families like the Bucks, but most 278 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: of them had not spent much time with her, if any. 279 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: Strode also called expert witnesses, including doctor Joseph S. De 280 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: Jarnette of Virginia's Western Lunatic Asylum, who had taken the 281 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: nickname Sterilization de Jarnet, and doctor Arthur Estebrook of the 282 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: Eugenics Record Office. The Eugenics Record Office was a pro 283 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: eugenics research center originally founded by the Carnegie Institution of 284 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: Washington as the Station for Experimental Evolution. Estebrook was also 285 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: author of a book called The Jukes in nineteen fifteen, 286 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: which was part of a genre called eugenic family studies. 287 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: And was one of the most famous books in that genre. 288 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: Harry Hamilton Laughlin, author of The Model Eugenics Law, also 289 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: provided a written deposition that largely rehashed previous letters to him. 290 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: This included describing the Bucks as belonging to the quote shiftless, ignorant, 291 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: and worthless class of antisocial whites of the South. 292 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,239 Speaker 2: When he was called to the stand, Pretty said that 293 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 2: Carrie Buck, now eighteen years old, would probably remain fertile 294 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 2: for another thirty years, and that if she was not sterilized, 295 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: her progeny would become an increasingly enormous burden on the state. 296 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 2: He said that if she were held at the colony 297 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: for the rest of her life to try to keep 298 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 2: her from having more children, that would cost the state 299 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 2: about two hundred dollars a year, but if she were sterilized, 300 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 2: she could be released from the colony and go back 301 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 2: to living with the Dobbs family and eventually become a 302 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 2: self sufficient member of society. Whitehead didn't really press any 303 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 2: of Pretty's witnesses from Charlottesville about whether they had any 304 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 2: direct knowledge of Carrie Buck or the Buck family. He 305 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 2: also didn't ask for more detail when Red Cross nurse 306 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 2: Caroline Wilhelm described the infant Vivian Buck as having quote 307 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 2: a look about it that is not quite normal. That 308 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 2: statement wasn't based on any kind of test or diagnostic criteria, 309 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 2: and it was the only evidence Strode had to offer 310 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 2: that Vivian had inherited some kind of negative trait from 311 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: her mother. And Whitehead also didn't point out various contradictions 312 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,959 Speaker 2: that came up over the course of the testimony. He 313 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: objected to the inclusion of Laughlin's deposition, but didn't offer 314 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: any witnesses of his own. Yeah, there are many lines 315 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: of questioning that he could have pursued but did not. 316 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 2: Albert Pritty had been seriously ill during the preparation for 317 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 2: the trial and the trial itself, and he died of 318 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 2: cancer on January thirteenth, nineteen twenty five. Then a few 319 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 2: months later, on April fifteenth, Judge Bennett's T. Gordon issued 320 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:04,360 Speaker 2: his decision in the case, describing Virginia's sterilization law as quote, 321 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 2: a valid and constitutional enactment and not obnoxious to the 322 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 2: objections urged against it, as contrary to the provisions of 323 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 2: the Constitution of the State of Virginia and of the 324 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 2: United States. In his decision, He also affirmed that Carrie 325 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 2: was feeble minded, as was her mother and quote apparently 326 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 2: so was her baby. 327 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: Since the point was to get the Supreme Court's opinion 328 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: on the case, the next step was an appeal. Doctor 329 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: John Hendryn Bell, newly appointed Superintendent of the Virginia Colony, 330 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: took Pritty's place in the court proceedings. Strode prepared a 331 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: brief that incorporated testimony from Carrie's original commitment hearing as 332 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: well as the earlier trial. He also made a number 333 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: of constitutional arguments, keeping in mind all the legal arguments 334 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: that had already been documented in Harry Hamilton Laughlin's book 335 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: Eugenical Sterilization in the u S. United States. 336 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Whitehead's much shorter brief argued that the law would 337 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 2: violate Carrie Buck's right to do process and equal protection 338 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 2: under the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, and that it would 339 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: deprive her of liberty and property. The Virginia Supreme Court 340 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 2: of Appeals upheld the lower court's ruling on November twelfth, 341 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty five. The next appeal was to the United 342 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 2: States Supreme Court under Chief Justice William Howard Taft, former 343 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 2: President of the United States and a eugenicist. The Supreme 344 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 2: Court agreed to hear the case in September of nineteen 345 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: twenty six. We'll have more about this after a sponsor break. 346 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 2: Attorney Aubrey Strode Supreme Court brief and Buck versus Bell 347 00:22:54,760 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 2: argued that Virginia's eugenic sterilization law was constitutional. Arguments were 348 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 2: informed by legal challenges that had already been made to 349 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 2: other states sterilization laws, many of which, as we've said, 350 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: had been documented by Harry Laughlin. This included arguing that 351 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 2: Virginia's law was not cruel and unusual punishment under the 352 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: Eighth Amendment to the Constitution, since these sterilizations were not 353 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 2: being performed as punishment for committing a crime. He also 354 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 2: argued that the patients were given due process before the 355 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: surgeries were authorized, and he argued that because the law 356 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 2: protected public health and safety by keeping dangerous and undesirable 357 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 2: people from reproducing, it was a valid use of the 358 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 2: state's police power. Whitehead continued to represent Carrie Buck, and 359 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 2: he argued again that the law violated her rights to 360 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 2: due process and equal protection under the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, 361 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 2: generally being less detailed and thorough than road was. I 362 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: feel like I could have put the word represent in 363 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 2: scare quotes in that sense. 364 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: He was physically there. 365 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: He showed up and did enough of a job that 366 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 2: people didn't immediately go, you're not doing your job, man. 367 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 2: The Supreme Court heard oral arguments in the case on 368 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 2: April twenty second, nineteen twenty seven, and issued its decision 369 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 2: less than two weeks later. The Supreme Court upheld the 370 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 2: lower courts ruling eight to one, meaning that Virginia's sterilization 371 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 2: law was constitutional. Associate Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Junior authored 372 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 2: the court's opinion, which incorporated a lot of language that 373 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 2: was already widely used within the eugenics movement. This opinion 374 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 2: was also exceptionally short, at under three pages. If you've 375 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 2: ever read a Supreme Court opinion, that's the still scribbles. 376 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: That's that's scratch paper, that's notes. It recapped the steps 377 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: that were required to approve a sterilization surgery under Virginia's law, 378 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: saying those steps met the constitutional standard for due process. 379 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 2: From there, it said, quote, the attack is not upon 380 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,959 Speaker 2: the procedure, but upon the substantive law. It seems to 381 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 2: be contended that in no circumstances could such an order 382 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 2: be justified. It certainly is contended that the order cannot 383 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: be justified upon the existing grounds. The judgment finds the 384 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: facts that have been recited, and that Carrie Buck is 385 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: the probable potential parent of socially inadequate offspring likewise afflicted, 386 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 2: that she may be sexually sterilized without detriment to her 387 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 2: general health, and that her welfare and that of society 388 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 2: will be promoted by her sterilization, and thereupon makes the 389 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: order in view of the general declarations of the legislature 390 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 2: and the specific findings of the court. Obviously, we cannot 391 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 2: say as matter of law that the grounds do not exist, 392 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 2: and if they exist, they justify the result. We have 393 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: seen more than once that the public welfare may call 394 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 2: upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be 395 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: strange if it could not call upon those who already 396 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 2: sap the strength of the state, for these lesser sacrifices, 397 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,479 Speaker 2: often not felt to be such by those concerned. In 398 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 2: order to prevent our being swamped with incompetence, it is 399 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 2: better for all the world if, instead of waiting to 400 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 2: execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve 401 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 2: for their imbecility. Society can prevent those who are manifestly 402 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 2: unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory 403 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 2: vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the fallopian tubes. 404 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 2: Three generations of imbeciles are enough. 405 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: The principle of compulsory vaccination is a reference to Yakubsen 406 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: versus Massachusetts, which the Court had decided in January of 407 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: nineteen oh five. In that case, the Supreme Court had 408 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,239 Speaker 1: upheld a compulsory smallpox vaccination law, ruling that quote, it 409 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: is within the police power of a state to enact 410 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 1: a compulsory vaccination law, and it is for the legislature 411 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: and not for the courts, to determine in the first instance, 412 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: whether vaccination is or is not the best mode for 413 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: the prevention of smallpox and the protection of the public health. 414 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: Jakobsen versus Massachusetts established a basic standard for when public 415 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 2: health measures could overrule a person's individual liberty and still 416 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 2: be considered constitutional. The measures in question had to be 417 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 2: necessary to protect public health, reasonable and proportional, and they 418 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 2: had to prevent harm. So, in the context of vaccines, 419 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 2: in Jakobsen versus Massachusetts, the general public was being protected 420 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 2: through requirements that people be vaccinated for smallpox, and those 421 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 2: requirements were reasonable and proportional. In the context of Buck 422 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 2: versus Bell, According to this court decision, the general public 423 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 2: was being protected from the feeble minded and their associated 424 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: societal burdens by removing their ability to bring about another 425 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 2: generation of feeble minded people, and according to the reasoning 426 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 2: of this decision, surgically sterilizing them was reasonable and proportional. 427 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: The decision continued quote. But it is said, however, it 428 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: might be if this reasoning were applied generally, it fails 429 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: when it is confined to the small number who are 430 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: in the institutions named, and is not applied to the 431 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: multitudes outside. It is the usual last resort of constitutional 432 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: arguments to point out shortcomings of this sort. But the 433 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: answer is that the law does all that is needed. 434 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: When it does all that it can, indicates a policy 435 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: applies it to all within the lines, and seeks to 436 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: bring within the lines all similarly situated, so far and 437 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: so fast as its means allow. Of course, so far 438 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: as the operations enable. Those who otherwise must be kept 439 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: confined to be returned to the world, And thus open 440 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,719 Speaker 1: the asylum to others, the equality aimed at will be 441 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: more nearly reached. 442 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 2: In other words, Virginia's law didn't violate the constitutional guarantee 443 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 2: of equal protection under the Laws by applying only to 444 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: people who were institutionalized, in part because people could then 445 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 2: be freed from asylums once they'd been sterilized, and that 446 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 2: would make more room in the asylums for more people 447 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 2: to be sterilized. The one descent in this case was 448 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 2: Associate Justice Pierce Butler. He did not author a dissenting opinion, 449 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 2: and the reasons for his descent are not clearly documented anywhere. 450 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 2: It's sometimes attributed to his being Catholic. He was the 451 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 2: child of Irish immigrants who had fled the Great Famine 452 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 2: in the mid nineteenth century. The Catholic Church was not 453 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: broadly against the idea of eugenics, but it was generally 454 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 2: opposed to measures that involved some kind of contraception or sterilization. 455 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: After the Supreme Court decision on October nineteenth, nineteen twenty seven, 456 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 2: doctor John Hendryn Bell performed a salpjectomy, or a surgical 457 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 2: procedure to remove the fallopian tubes on twenty one year 458 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 2: old Carrie Buck. She remained in the colony infirmary, recovering 459 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 2: until November three, and a little over a week later 460 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 2: she was furloughed from the colony. Although there was a 461 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 2: proposal for her to go live with the Dobbs family, 462 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 2: where her daughter was, the Dobbses apparently didn't think that 463 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 2: was a good idea, so she was designated as a 464 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 2: ward of the Coleman family and sent to live with them. 465 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 2: The Coleman's returned to Carrie to the colony after she 466 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 2: allegedly used a dishpan as a chamber, something that Missus 467 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 2: Coleman seems to have thought was a prank. Not long 468 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: after Carrie was readmitted to the colony, her thirteen year 469 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 2: old sister Doris, was sterilized there without her knowledge, during 470 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 2: an operation in which her appendix was also removed. Carrie 471 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 2: Buck was later released from the colony again and went 472 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 2: to live with mister and Missus A. T. Newberry, who 473 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 2: at first were authorized to return her to the colony 474 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 2: if they deemed it necessary. Carrie was formally discharged from 475 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 2: the colony on January first, nineteen twenty nine, at the 476 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 2: age of twenty two. 477 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: Carrie's daughter Vivian, who was now known as Vivian Dobbs, 478 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: made the honor roll at her elementary school in the 479 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: spring of nineteen thirty one. The following year, she died 480 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: of enterocolitis at the age of eight. This was probably 481 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: a complication of a case of measles. Carrie had not 482 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: seen her daughter again after first being separated from her, 483 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: and no one told her about Vivian's death. She found 484 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: out about it much later. 485 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 2: On May fourteenth, nineteen thirty two, Carrie Buck married William D. Eagle. 486 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 2: She had kept in touch with staff at the Virginia Colony, 487 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 2: including doctor Bell and a nurse named Roxy Barry, who 488 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 2: had been one of the attendants during her sterilization surgery. 489 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 2: Over the years, Carrie wrote them a series of letters, 490 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: many of which asked about her mother's health and whether 491 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 2: it was okay for her to send things that her mother, Emma, 492 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 2: had asked her for. Carrie also tried to make arrangements 493 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 2: for Emma to be released from the colony and come 494 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 2: to live with her and her husband. That never happened, 495 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 2: and Emma Buck died of pneumonia there in nineteen forty four. Somehow, 496 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: Carrie and her brother Roy didn't get the telegram that 497 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 2: was sent to notify the two of them of their 498 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 2: mother's death. They knew that she was sick, though, they 499 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 2: went to the colony to visit her, only to learn 500 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 2: that she had died a couple of weeks before. 501 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: By that point, Carrie had been widowed. Her husband, William, 502 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: died on July twenty third, nineteen forty one. In nineteen 503 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: sixty five, she got married again to Charles A. Detamoor. 504 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy nine, Carrie's sister, now known as Doris Figgins, 505 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 2: learned that the reason that she had never been able 506 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 2: to get pregnant was that she had been sterilized while 507 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 2: at the Virginia Colony fifty years before. Doris died three 508 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 2: years later in nineteen eighty two. 509 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: Near the end of her life, Carrie met Paul Lombardo, 510 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: who went on to write Three Generations, No Imbeciles, Eugenics, 511 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, and Buck versus Bill, which is considered 512 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: the definitive work on this case and the people involved 513 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: with it. At the time, he was a law student, 514 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: Carrie and her husband, Charlie, were living in a state 515 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: operated home after it had become clear that they needed 516 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: more support than they could yet living on their own. 517 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 2: During this meeting, Carrie told Lombardo quote, they'd done me wrong, 518 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 2: They'd done us all wrong. Carrie Buck Eagle Detemir died 519 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 2: a few weeks after this meeting, on January twenty eighth, 520 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three, at the age of seventy seven. As 521 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 2: we've discussed, feeble mindedness was sort of an umbrella category 522 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 2: that just does not hold up under scrutiny. Beyond that, 523 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 2: there is general agreement today that Emma's diagnosis is suspect 524 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 2: because it was based mainly on unreliable IQ test, and 525 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 2: that neither Carrie nor her daughter Vivian was disabled. This 526 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 2: does not mean that Carrie's sterilization was somehow more tragic 527 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: than it would have been if she had a disability. 528 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,959 Speaker 2: Disabled people's bodies and bodily autonomy are not worth less 529 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 2: than that of non disabled people. The point is that 530 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,439 Speaker 2: the justification for her sterilization and the Supreme Court case 531 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 2: that upheld it, was not even true. After Buck versus 532 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 2: Bell upheld Virginia's sterilization law as constitutional, other states and 533 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,439 Speaker 2: Puerto Rico began passing their own laws. By nineteen thirty seven, 534 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 2: thirty two states had some kind of compulsory sterilization law, 535 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 2: and five other states had carried out procedures without some 536 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 2: kind of law on the books. It's believed that at 537 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,280 Speaker 2: least sixty thousand people in the United States were sterilized 538 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,720 Speaker 2: without their consent over the course of more than fifty years, 539 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,919 Speaker 2: as had happened with Doris Buck Figgins. Sometimes people were 540 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 2: not even told this was what was happening, and they 541 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 2: thought they were having surgery for some other reason. While 542 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 2: the Bucks were white, these surgeries were disproportionately performed on 543 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 2: Black women and other women of color. Fanny lou Hamer 544 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 2: popularized the term Mississippi apendectomy to describe the forced sterilization 545 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 2: of black women in the Southern United States. 546 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 1: And there were also sterilization programs in other parts of 547 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: the world. Nazi Germany passed its law for the Prevention 548 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: of Offspring with Hereditary Diseases in nineteen thirty three. This 549 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: paved the way for approximately two million sterilizations in Nazi 550 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: occupied Europe after World War II. Buck versus Bell was 551 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: cited as a defense during the Nuremberg trials. There are 552 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: also other connections between American and Nazi eugenics. For example, 553 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty six, the University of Heidelberg, which was 554 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: under Nazi administration, awarded Harry H. Laughlin an honorary doctorate 555 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: in medicine for his contributions to quote the science of 556 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: racial cleansing. 557 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 2: We said at the top of the show that Buck 558 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 2: versus Bell has never been directly overturned. One case that 559 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 2: might have done that was Skinner versus Oklahoma, which followed 560 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 2: Oklahoma's passage of its Habitual Criminal Sterilization Act of nineteen 561 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 2: thirty five. That law required a person and to be 562 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 2: sterilized if they had been convicted of three or more 563 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 2: felonies of moral turpitude. The Supreme Court ruled that this 564 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 2: was unconstitutional because it was a cruel and unusual punishment 565 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 2: and was applied arbitrarily, but it did not apply this 566 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 2: ruling to involuntary sterilizations. More broadly, in nineteen eighty, the 567 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 2: American Civil Liberties Union filed suit on behalf of thousands 568 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 2: of women who had been sterilized under Virginia's eugenics law. 569 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 2: This led to Poe versus Lynchburg, which was ultimately settled 570 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 2: at the district court level in nineteen eighty five without 571 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 2: overturning the original law. Most of the sterilization laws that 572 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 2: were passed in the US in the early twentieth century 573 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 2: have been repealed today. Virginia repealed its law in nineteen 574 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 2: seventy four and removed other legal references to sterilization of 575 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 2: people with quote hereditary forms of mental illness that are 576 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 2: recurrent in nineteen seventy nine. Virginia also apologized to the 577 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 2: victims of its sterilization law in two thousand and two, 578 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 2: but there are still laws on the books in various 579 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 2: states allowing for involuntary sterilizations in some circumstances, including laws 580 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 2: that allow parents, guardians, or other caregivers to approve sterilizations 581 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 2: for their disabled children and other dependents. This is an 582 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 2: incredibly sensitive and contentious topic because it involves figuring out 583 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 2: how to simultaneously respect disabled people's rights to privacy and 584 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 2: bodily autonomy while also allowing people to make medical decisions 585 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 2: for them if they are genuinely unable to communicate their 586 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 2: own wishes or make decisions for themselves. That's Book versus 587 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 2: Bell one of the worst things that I have researched 588 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 2: in a while. 589 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks to this uplifting topic. 590 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 2: Tracy, Well, I wasn't expecting a more Supreme Court explicit 591 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 2: badness happening just immediately after I finished writing it. 592 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, do you have a listener mail that's hopefully less horrifying. 593 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: I have listener mail. This is from Bobby. 594 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 2: So Bobby wrote with a question that we get periodically 595 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 2: that I just kind of wanted to revisit. Bobby wrote, Hi, 596 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 2: Tracy and Holly, I'm a huge fan of the show 597 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 2: and currently playing catch up with episodes and up to 598 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 2: the Kurt Vonnegut episode. 599 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: Love it. 600 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 2: Some of the episodes in the last couple weeks, like 601 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,879 Speaker 2: February to March, you mentioned Democrats and Republicans before they 602 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 2: had a platform shift in the mid twentieth century. Is 603 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,919 Speaker 2: that worse than saying nineteen hundred's ha ha. I don't 604 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 2: know if there is much information on that, or even 605 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 2: if you could do a whole episode on that, but 606 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 2: the switching platforms is very interesting to me, and I 607 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 2: often wonder how that happened. When Republicans today say they 608 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 2: are the Party of Lincoln, I want to scream. Anyway, 609 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 2: that's my little at side. I love your episodes and 610 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:55,959 Speaker 2: listen to you all while I'm on the road for work. 611 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for keeping me company. Cheers, Bobby. 612 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 2: So I wrote back to Bobby, and this is something 613 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 2: that we have I think mentioned on the show before 614 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 2: that I know we've gotten other questions from listeners about before. 615 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 2: We don't have an episode on how the platforms of 616 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 2: the Democrat and Republican parties in the United States have shifted, 617 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 2: and we're not really planning to do one because it 618 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 2: is just, in my opinion, not something that translates very 619 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,760 Speaker 2: well to a narrative podcast episode. A lot of times 620 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:33,280 Speaker 2: gets really oversimplified as being related to the Civil Rights Act, 621 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 2: and that is like one moment in almost one hundred 622 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 2: years of history that involved a lot of different changes 623 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 2: and shifts and legislative priorities and sort of shifts in 624 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 2: how both parties were focused. Like longer ago, in the past, 625 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 2: there was more breadth within each of the parties as 626 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 2: far as having like a more progressive and a more 627 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 2: conservative side right, and all of that changed over a 628 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 2: very long time in a way that I just don't 629 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 2: know how to make make sense and be interesting to 630 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 2: listen to in like a narrative podcast. So one of 631 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 2: the resources that I point people to for this often 632 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 2: is the Ask historians subreddit. The Ask Historian subreddit is 633 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,720 Speaker 2: a really good resource. They have been around for years 634 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 2: and really focused on people who have historical knowledge, including 635 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 2: historians and other experts, like building up their trust within 636 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 2: that community to be able to answer user questions in 637 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:49,760 Speaker 2: a reliable and correct way. And they have a whole 638 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 2: page that's basically the changing role of Republicans and Democrats. 639 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,799 Speaker 2: So if you go to the Ask historians subreddit, they 640 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:04,319 Speaker 2: have in their subreddit information like a whole frequently asked 641 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 2: questions area, and that is one of them, and it 642 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 2: has a lot of just very good, comprehensive answers that 643 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 2: are easy to understand for a lay person, kind of 644 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 2: walking through how the parties each have shifted over this 645 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,840 Speaker 2: more than a century, and how their individual platforms have 646 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 2: shifted over the century in a way that I feel 647 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 2: like the written text is a lot easier to understand 648 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:37,399 Speaker 2: than an audio podcast would be. So I already sent 649 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 2: that link to Bobby and thank you Bobby for writing. 650 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 2: If anybody else it's curious about that the Ask historians subreddit. 651 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 2: I know a lot of folks have kind of a 652 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 2: gut reaction to the idea of reddit, But the ask 653 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 2: Historians subreddit is really good. If you jump in there 654 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 2: fifteen minutes after a question has been asked, you might 655 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 2: see random people that have put in answers. Those are 656 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:08,359 Speaker 2: very quickly moderated away until a good, thorough answer is 657 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,800 Speaker 2: provided by somebody in the community, and then that becomes 658 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 2: a resource for everybody to read. They have a handy 659 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 2: little link that you can click to you remind yourself 660 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 2: to come back and check for an answer later if 661 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 2: there's not an answer there yet on a question. If 662 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 2: you would like to send us a note about this 663 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,399 Speaker 2: or any other podcast, we are at History Podcast at 664 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio dot com and you can subscribe to the show 665 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app and anywhere else you'd like to 666 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:42,719 Speaker 2: get your podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class is 667 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 2: a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 668 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 669 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 2: your favorite shows.