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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm bridge Ton and this

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Speaker 1: is there are No Girls.

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Speaker 2: On the Internet.

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Speaker 1: So Mike, as I know, you know and some of

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Speaker 1: the listeners by now know if you listen to the

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Speaker 1: last few episodes, I have had kind of a rough

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Speaker 1: few months, and during that time I have basically stopped

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Speaker 1: using social media. I just didn't really have a ton

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Speaker 1: to update anybody on other than you know, another day

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Speaker 1: in the hospital with my dad. And honestly, it was

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Speaker 1: getting to the point where scrolling social media would make

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Speaker 1: me feel bad because when I did check in with

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Speaker 1: what folks were doing online, I was then confronted with

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Speaker 1: all of the ways that everybody around me continued to

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Speaker 1: live their lives while mine had essentially stopped. So during

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Speaker 1: that time when I was off social media, when I

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Speaker 1: took the occasional trip or did the occasional traveling, I

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Speaker 1: was really out of the habit of posting online at all.

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Speaker 1: So I didn't and I realized that with everything going on,

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Speaker 1: not posting about my traveling and my trips actually made

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Speaker 1: me feel weirdly more connected to those experiences. At one

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Speaker 1: point when my dad was in the hospital. I found

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Speaker 1: this campsite near his hospital. Fun fact, it's the only

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Speaker 1: legal campsite in Richmond, Virginia, and so I was able

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Speaker 1: to go to the hospital and do hospital things with

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Speaker 1: my dad during the day and then for the evening

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Speaker 1: retire to this campsite and sort of really get that

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Speaker 1: sort of nature recharge in the evenings I was looking for,

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Speaker 1: like by a campfire. It was probably one of the nicest, coolest,

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Speaker 1: most unique camp sites I've ever been to. But because

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Speaker 1: I wasn't on social media, I wasn't posting about it,

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Speaker 1: and it weirdly felt kind of good to not be

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Speaker 1: posting about it, right, I got to have this experience

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Speaker 1: truly be focused around being something that you know, spiritually

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Speaker 1: nourished me and filled my cup personally, as opposed to

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Speaker 1: really focusing on how do I need to present this

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Speaker 1: to the outside world. How can I validate that this

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Speaker 1: experience is as cool as it feels to be me

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Speaker 1: experiencing it to others via social media? Does that make sense?

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Speaker 3: It does make sense. It makes a lot of sense

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Speaker 3: to me. You know, a guy that has maybe a

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Speaker 3: couple dozen followers across like all of my social media accounts. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it makes total sense to be really focused on your

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Speaker 3: own perception of things and not focused on trying to

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Speaker 3: present it to others. You know, maybe not the best

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Speaker 3: strategy for explosive podcast growth, but in terms of personal satisfaction,

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Speaker 3: it feels pretty good.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, they say the best relationships

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Speaker 1: and I think this also goes for podcast hosts and

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Speaker 1: podcast producer are one where one person is very online

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Speaker 1: and then the other person is like, never online, It's

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Speaker 1: no idea what's happening online. Maybe that's what we have

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Speaker 1: going on here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds a bit like our dynamic here. I'm

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Speaker 3: happy to play my role of not knowing what the

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Speaker 3: hell is going on and counting on you to tell

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Speaker 3: me all about it.

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Speaker 1: As you know, I'm still sort of reintegrating back into

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Speaker 1: my life, back into the world, which I gotta say

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Speaker 1: has been challenging, given how depressing a lot of the

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Speaker 1: news is these days, and how depressing the world seems

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Speaker 1: these days. I feel like I got a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a late start to all that, Like I was

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Speaker 1: in my own depressing world, and then when I re

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Speaker 1: entered the rest of you all, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: stuff is bleak. Oh, like, oh, everybody else is also

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Speaker 1: really said okay, cool, cool, cool, getting caught up, getting

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Speaker 1: caught up?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you thought your dad dying was bad? Did you

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Speaker 3: know about politics?

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Speaker 1: Truly? I in some ways I was like put lucky

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Speaker 1: to be kind of spared from that, Like election night,

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Speaker 1: I barely tuned into what was going on. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be sure if I should say this, As far

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Speaker 1: as I know, my dad went to his heavenly home

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Speaker 1: thinking that they were still tallying the votes and that

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Speaker 1: we still didn't know the winner. So I really we've

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Speaker 1: all taken a little bit of a intentional break from

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Speaker 1: what's going on in the new cycle, and so I

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Speaker 1: only want today's episode to sort of be a break

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Speaker 1: from the new cycle, as I'm sort of getting caught

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Speaker 1: up on everything and kind of like travel itself. It'll

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Speaker 1: be a little bit of escape is but a chance

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Speaker 1: to really explore who we are and how we show

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Speaker 1: up in the world without the crushing pressure of dealing

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Speaker 1: with all the disasters waiting for us back home, Which

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Speaker 1: brings me to my central question that I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about today. Similarly to how I didn't really share

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Speaker 1: the details to my very cool, top secret camping spot

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Speaker 1: does social media ruin and take the fun out of travel. So,

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Speaker 1: right off the bat, y'all know that we have kind

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Speaker 1: of a love hate thing going on with social media

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Speaker 1: here at Tangoty. I am not out to demonize social

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Speaker 1: media and say like, oh, it's those damn phones ruining everything,

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Speaker 1: because I think that when we outright demonize technology, it

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Speaker 1: really becomes way too black or white, and then we're

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Speaker 1: not able to come up with reasonable frameworks for its

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Speaker 1: use and for its place in society.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, And as we've

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Speaker 3: said a lot of times on this show, there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of positive things that we get from social media

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Speaker 3: in the Internet. So yeah, trying to flatten things down

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Speaker 3: into simple black and white doesn't really do anybody any good.

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Speaker 3: But isn't it fun to just focus on one negative

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Speaker 3: thing and just like really hate on it for a

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Speaker 3: little while.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's my absolute favorite. But I mean, I

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Speaker 1: will say I would never have been able to do

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Speaker 1: the amount of meaningful solo travel as a black woman

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Speaker 1: on my own in many places if not for social media.

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Speaker 1: But it is for me often fund to just dig

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Speaker 1: into the research and what people are saying about the

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Speaker 1: negative impacts that social media and technology do have on travel,

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Speaker 1: so pretty high level. There are places that the entire

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Speaker 1: Internet swears up and down have been completely ruined by

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Speaker 1: social media, specifically like influencer types. I think I did

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Speaker 1: a little bit of very unscientific research, and by that

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Speaker 1: I mean I searched on Reddit, and those apparently a

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Speaker 1: bunch of popular touruss deessinations that travelers say are just done.

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Speaker 1: Cross them out. They've been ruined, their cook it's over.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to know some of those destinations?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I feel like I probably have a sense.

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Speaker 3: But what did Reddit have to say?

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Speaker 1: So Portugal, which You're welcome everybody, Mike, You and I

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Speaker 1: spent about a month in Portugal, I guess ruining it

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Speaker 1: for everybody.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess we caught the tail end because I

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Speaker 3: thought it was awesome. But there were a lot of

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Speaker 3: us there, us non Portuguese.

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Speaker 1: Oh, if Portugal would have me permanently, I would gladly go.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure me and like a million other Americans. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure saying that right now. Bali, have you ever been there?

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Speaker 3: No, I've never been to Bali. I've never been to

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Speaker 3: that part of the world. I would love to go,

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Speaker 3: but I guess maybe I shouldn't, but I still want to.

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Speaker 1: According to Reddit, you maybe missed the boat on that one.

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Speaker 1: I spent about a month in Australia and a lot

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Speaker 1: of Australian's vacation to Bali, because it's not that intense

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Speaker 1: of a flay, like it will be a very intense

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Speaker 1: flight for me coming from the East coast of the

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Speaker 1: United States, and so I sort of had a kind

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Speaker 1: of a fascination with it kind of early on from

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Speaker 1: that trip. But I've never gone. And if you ask Reddit,

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Speaker 1: it's too late. Don't go to Loom, Mexico. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever been there? No?

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Speaker 3: I haven't. And that's definitely a place that I'm interested in.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people I know have like gone and

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Speaker 3: had really positive experiences. But I do have a lot

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Speaker 3: of hesitation because it just seems so overrun with tourists,

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Speaker 3: and not just tourists, but like a specific type of

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Speaker 3: like all inclusive ayahuasca seeking, like new age tourists to

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Speaker 3: like eat prey, drink margarita. I don't know, it's like

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Speaker 3: it seems kind of fun but also a little like commercial.

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Speaker 3: It seems quite commercial. In twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: So we've talked about this off mic, but I'm you

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Speaker 1: know how I was talking about how I'm not doing

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Speaker 1: Christmas this year. I'm just skipping Christmas, and so I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, if I don't do Christmas, maybe I'll

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Speaker 1: go to like a yoga or like retreat or something.

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Speaker 1: And so just doing the most preliminary of research. There

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Speaker 1: are so many of them in Tuloom, and I could say, like,

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Speaker 1: all of them look beautiful. It's like these really picturesque,

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Speaker 1: instagrammable places, but I cannot not see that and wonder, like,

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Speaker 1: what exactly is the impact that a bunch of non

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Speaker 1: Mexican people coming to to Loom to do a mindfulness

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Speaker 1: retreat or a yoga retreat or whatever. I cannot see

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Speaker 1: these beautifully instagrammable pictures and not wonder what is the

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Speaker 1: impact on the locals, Like what is the ecological impact?

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Speaker 1: As beautiful as this stuff all looks, It's just very

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Speaker 1: difficult for me to not see this as a kind

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Speaker 1: of like consumption question.

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Speaker 3: I think is a particularly difficult question because Tuloom is

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Speaker 3: a great example of a place that I think is

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Speaker 3: marketed as like an ecological paradise of pristine beaches and

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Speaker 3: beautiful jungle and an easy place to just like hang

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Speaker 3: out on the beach and relax and decompress. But meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: going there and enjoying those things is putting a lot

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Speaker 3: of environmental pressure on the very beaches and jungles that

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Speaker 3: that people want to see, and all that relaxation and

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Speaker 3: fun is maybe contributing to a lot of economic inequality

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Speaker 3: and strife. So there's no free lunch.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: I feel the exact same way, and part of me

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Speaker 1: thinks it's kind of funny because taking a step back,

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Speaker 1: the threads I was looking at on Reddit with people

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Speaker 1: complaining about these different popular tourist destinations presumably are written

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Speaker 1: by Taurus themselves who are visiting there and then cast

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Speaker 1: whatever blame they have outward towards other people, saying that

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Speaker 1: they're the problem. Like I'm trying to visit this place

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Speaker 1: for vacation and all these tourists keep proving it for me.

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Speaker 3: I love going to a place and complaining about the

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Speaker 3: tourists me too, And I have to.

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Speaker 1: Say, I mean, it wouldn't be an episode of There

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Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet if we didn't ask what

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Speaker 1: is the role of misogyny here? Because all of these

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Speaker 1: threads on redditor people complaining specifically about influencers, and part

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Speaker 1: of you wonders, are these actual influencers, like people who

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Speaker 1: are creating content or is this just sort of a

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Speaker 1: veiled way of hating on women because women are associated

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Speaker 1: with things like travel, blogging and influencing and contact creating,

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Speaker 1: and so it's just a way of hating on things

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Speaker 1: that people associate with women. I always want to ask that,

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Speaker 1: because I do think there has to be some thread

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Speaker 1: of massogity and woman hating going on here with the

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Speaker 1: vitriol that people talk about influencers or perceived influencers going

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Speaker 1: to some of these places. I'm not saying that influencers

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Speaker 1: that their behavior is above reproach, like if you are

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Speaker 1: pushing people over to get your perfect sealthier like holding

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Speaker 1: up traffic, obviously, but part of me wonders, are these

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Speaker 1: actual influencers or are they just like young women traveling

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Speaker 1: that people think are annoying, so they're just hating on

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Speaker 1: them and saying, oh, it's because I hate influencers, they're

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Speaker 1: ruining travel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. Is there any signs about this, bridget.

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Speaker 1: Well, there is actually a ton of research out there

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Speaker 1: about how social media impacts travel behavior. Now, some of

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Speaker 1: it is pretty benign and some of it is really

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Speaker 1: not so benign. So according to the research, social media

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Speaker 1: absolutely does impact where we travel. In a paper called

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Speaker 1: Social Return and Intent to Travel published in Tourism Management,

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Speaker 1: they looked at the concept of what they call social return,

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Speaker 1: and that is the amount of positive social feedback that

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Speaker 1: someone's social media posts about travel will generate. They looked

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Speaker 1: at folks' intentions to visit Cuba, a place that I've

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Speaker 1: traveled and absolutely loved. They picked Cuba because I guess

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Speaker 1: it seemed like kind of an unusual tourism destination, they write.

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Speaker 1: Cuba is considered a novel tourism destination for US travelers,

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Speaker 1: as visitation is still restricted for most US citizens, despite

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Speaker 1: recently restored diplomatic relationships between the US and Cuba. It

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Speaker 1: was chosen as a destination of interest in the study

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Speaker 1: as the inconspicuous consumption of novel tourism destinations is likely

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Speaker 1: to elicit greater social return or status than the consumption

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Speaker 1: of a mainstream tourism destination.

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Speaker 3: That makes some sense, you know, like rarity is something

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Speaker 3: that people look for if if everybody's going to one place.

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Speaker 3: It's not as cool to go there as compared to

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Speaker 3: like someplace where nobody else is going.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm trying to remember why I went to Cuba.

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Speaker 1: I went alone. I went kind of on a whim.

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Speaker 1: I think if I don't know, it's been so long

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Speaker 1: now if I remember correctly, I was just looking at

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Speaker 1: places where you could get an easy flight, and it

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Speaker 1: just happened to be someplace that I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: this flight is like a deal and it's not too

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Speaker 1: far away. I could do this. I had one of

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Speaker 1: my biggest travel blunders of my entire life going to Havana, Cuba.

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Speaker 1: Have I told you this?

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Speaker 3: You did? And it was because of that terrible bank

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Speaker 3: that you use. You should I'm always telling you that

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Speaker 3: you should use a good bank like Chase.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Well, we do use Chase for our business,

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Speaker 1: our shared like business accounts. So shout out to Chase

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Speaker 1: for my personal banking needs. I am not lucky enough

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Speaker 1: to bank with Chase for my personal needs. It's a

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Speaker 1: whole long story. So Chase is not responsible for what

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Speaker 1: happened to me in Cuba, which is that I called

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Speaker 1: my bank my non Chase personal bank, and I said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm traveling to Cuba. What do I need to know

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Speaker 1: when I get there? And the banker said, you'll be fine.

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Speaker 1: Your bank card will work like normal. You could pick

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Speaker 1: out cash like normal. It's basically like banking anywhere else

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Speaker 1: in the United States. I said, cool, that my dumb

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Speaker 1: ass gets on the plane, I don't take out any cash.

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Speaker 1: I land in Cuba, I'm the first things, first time

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Speaker 1: to go to the ATM. The ATM said, I don't

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Speaker 1: think so. You can't use an American bankcard in a

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Speaker 1: Cuban ATM. It turns out there had been some diplomatic

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Speaker 1: change like that week, and so the information I was

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Speaker 1: getting from my personal bank that was not Chase was

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Speaker 1: correct when they told it to me, but I guess

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Speaker 1: became incorrect like days later. So I had to spend

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Speaker 1: the entirety of a week long trip in Havana, Cuba,

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Speaker 1: with like twenty dollars cash to my name and no

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Speaker 1: other way to use money or spend money or really

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Speaker 1: make money. But you know what, thanks to the good

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Speaker 1: people of Cuba, it actually all worked out fine. It

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Speaker 1: actually was not that it actually ended up being fine,

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Speaker 1: and I remember it fondly as one of my best

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Speaker 1: trips solo.

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Speaker 3: That must have been pretty challenging to get around on

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Speaker 3: twenty dollars.

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Speaker 1: You know what, I made it work.

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Speaker 3: Good thing. You're so charming.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was really the saving grace. So back to

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Speaker 1: this study. Basically, they looked at people's intention to go

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Speaker 1: to Cuba and they graded it along what they called

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Speaker 1: the social return scale, which is basically how much love

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Speaker 1: and interest online traveling to Cuba might get on social media.

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Speaker 1: They found that the social return scale also had a

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Speaker 1: positive and significant relationship with the intention to visit Cuba.

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Speaker 1: These results suggest that social return is a salient symbolic

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Speaker 1: factor in destination selection process. So basically, the research suggests

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Speaker 1: that we're picking where we travel based on this idea

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Speaker 1: of social return how much will people ooh and out

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Speaker 1: over it on social media. The researcher is right in

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Speaker 1: recognition that the traveler is keenly aware of the social

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Speaker 1: value of their travel, and that not all travel experiences

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Speaker 1: are evaluated equally. There is the opportunity for varying travel

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Speaker 1: experiences to generate different levels of social return. In the

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Speaker 1: age of widespread social media use, particularly in the context

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Speaker 1: of travel, social return can be conceptualized as the amount

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Speaker 1: of positive social feedback that one's social media posts will generate.

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Speaker 1: The general ideas that the more well received a social

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Speaker 1: media post, the more social media return the post will

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Speaker 1: generate through increased likes, comments, and sharing. This in turn

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Speaker 1: leads to an enhanced social status of the poster among

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Speaker 1: their social group. In essence, social media has provided a

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Speaker 1: medium for pure groups to manacure their social images to

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Speaker 1: demonstrate the cultural capital needed to effectively climb the social ladder.

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Speaker 1: So basically, we're all just traveling to like look cool

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Speaker 1: on Instagram to impress our friends, not necessarily because that's

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Speaker 1: where we want to go.

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Speaker 3: That makes sense, you know. I think they're doing the

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Speaker 3: thing that social scientists love to do, which is taking

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Speaker 3: a pretty common sense idea and putting a label on

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Speaker 3: it social return. But it is useful to think about

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Speaker 3: it that way, and it prompts you to think about

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Speaker 3: what other types of motivation somebody might have for traveling.

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Speaker 3: You know, either to learn more about a place, learn

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Speaker 3: more about history, learn about connections to where your family

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Speaker 3: might be from. You know, social return is a big

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Speaker 3: part of it. And it sounds like this research is

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Speaker 3: suggesting that social return is increasingly a big part of it.

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Speaker 1: Well, on that list of reasons that one might travel,

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Speaker 1: where do you put as a way to express one's

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Speaker 1: own vanity and narcissism, because that is another reason why

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Speaker 1: people travel thanks to the rise of social media. Basically,

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Speaker 1: this research found that instead of being like a meaningful

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Speaker 1: thing that you might do for the sake of doing it,

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Speaker 1: travel can be just another commodity to craft one's digital

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Speaker 1: identity right. This is especially important as narcissism becomes more

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Speaker 1: normalized and the posting of travel experiences on social media

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Speaker 1: becomes more prominent primary motivation for travel. These self centered

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Speaker 1: motivations being related to the current techno meritocratic system that

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Speaker 1: we have entered, where once value is partly derived from

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Speaker 1: the image they procure through digital platforms. This focus on

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Speaker 1: social return is similar to other measures of the symbolic

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Speaker 1: value of travel consumption, such as self concept or self congruity. However,

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Speaker 1: with social return, the attention is on the anticipative image

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Speaker 1: enhancement through posting about travel experiences on social media sites.

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Speaker 1: So as like nefarious as that sounds, I have to say,

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Speaker 1: I'm one hundred percent guilty of it. By the way,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're going through a bad breakup and

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Speaker 1: you want to project that you are out here living

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Speaker 1: your best and most glamorous life. What better way to

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Speaker 1: do that than go on a like luxurious, far flung

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Speaker 1: vacation and post about how much fun you're having on Instagram.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So, yes, I have seen the social return travel dynamic

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Speaker 1: play out, and I have been guilty of it myself.

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Speaker 3: Where would you say is the top place that you

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Speaker 3: went because you were seeking that social return and did

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Speaker 3: you get the social dividends you were looking for?

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Speaker 1: Ooh, this is a good question. Also, not a place

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Speaker 1: that I've actually gone for social return, but a trip

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Speaker 1: I've sort of been planning in my mind for a

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Speaker 1: very long time that is like partially based in social return.

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Speaker 1: It's going to Washington State, where they filmed the show

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Speaker 1: Twin Peaks or the movie Twin Peaks as well. I

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Speaker 1: think I would get a kick out of being there

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Speaker 1: because I like any kind of pretty outdoor, sort of

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Speaker 1: like mountainous place. But I'm a big David Lynch fan,

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Speaker 1: and I am in all kinds of like online communities

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Speaker 1: talking about David Lynch, and so the idea of being like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I craft did the perfect Twin Peaks, I Tinerary, and

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Speaker 1: I went to all the spots where they filmed. I

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Speaker 1: went to the diner, I went here. That's like fully

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Speaker 1: a social return, planned vacation in my mind.

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Speaker 3: I love that because I mean, I also love Twin Peaks,

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Speaker 3: but I feel like Twin Peaks is the perfect piece

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Speaker 3: of media example for this because it's like quirky and

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Speaker 3: weird and universally loved.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh, y'all, I'm so quirky and like avant garde,

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Speaker 1: this piece of media that literally is critically acclaimed by everyone.

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Speaker 1: It's it's important to me. Did you guys know this

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Speaker 1: is an expression of my personal identity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm one of the few people who can appreciate

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Speaker 3: this hit television series that was like a runaway success

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Speaker 3: on network TV.

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Speaker 1: This is such a non sequorter, and I'm so sorry listeners.

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Speaker 1: I was watching Love Island and there was a couple

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Speaker 1: on there who the guy was like, Oh, I'm so nerdy.

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Speaker 1: I'm so into these like nerdy things like Marvel movies.

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Speaker 1: And then the woman is like, oh my god, Marvel movies.

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Speaker 1: That's so weird. I love them too. I'm screaming at

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Speaker 1: my TV like They are literally the most popular films

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Speaker 1: on planet Earth. They are like no our box office smashes.

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Speaker 1: They're like the only movie they make. Y'all, aren't like

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Speaker 1: quirky and special that you have this this incredibly popular

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Speaker 1: thing in common.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel that it's like a really good analogy

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Speaker 3: for what we're talking about here. You don't want to

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Speaker 3: go on a trip to a place that's like too

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Speaker 3: basic or too common. You know, it's like, what's the

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Speaker 3: point nobody's even gonna be impressed.

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Speaker 1: Well, so this is this is anecdotal, so I don't

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Speaker 1: have any research about this, but I've actually almost noticed

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Speaker 1: this like negative social return thing happening. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that's what you're referring to, where a travel destination

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Speaker 1: is deemed to be too basic, and then I'll see

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Speaker 1: people in like online travel communities turning up their nose

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Speaker 1: at it a little bit, saying I'm like, oh, you

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00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 1: went to Turks and Caicos. Everybody goes there. That's not exciting,

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Speaker 1: that's not cool. Like call me when you go someplace

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Speaker 1: really far along you have you seen this?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Definitely, I feel that happens all the time. I

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Speaker 3: feel like Tuloom is kind of a good example of that,

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Speaker 3: because I feel it's often a little unfair to the place.

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Speaker 3: It's like, Yeah, you've created a really cool scene or

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Speaker 3: place or experience that a lot of people want to

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Speaker 3: come to, and now we're gonna hate on it because

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Speaker 3: you've been too successful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and even I feel like taking a

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Speaker 1: step back. Any conversation about travel kind of has that undercurrent,

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Speaker 1: because we're talking about these places that don't exist for

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Speaker 1: us to explore us tourists, right. They're they're the They're

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Speaker 1: these incredibly dynamic, culturally rich places with with like a

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Speaker 1: rich history and a rich people like. The idea of

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Speaker 1: experiencing them only through this very narrow focus of is

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Speaker 1: it a good is it a good place for me

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Speaker 1: to come and hang out for a week is so narrow.

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Speaker 1: So the whole conversation feels a little bit icky of

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Speaker 1: defining some of these incredibly dynamic places through this very

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Speaker 1: narrow lens of are they good tourist destinations or not.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break. Enterer back, Okay, so I.

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Speaker 1: Have to shout out a researcher whose work I stumbled

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Speaker 1: upon while I was put in together my thoughts for

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Speaker 1: this episode. Doctor Lauren A. Siegel, PhD. Lauren got her

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Speaker 1: PhD from University of Surrey and the UK with a

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Speaker 1: focus on behavioral performance and visitor impacts to destinations considered instagrammable.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Siegel published a paper with colleagues Ice Tessiata and

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Speaker 1: Caroline Scarles called cyber Physical Traveler Performances and Instagram Travel

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Speaker 1: Photography as Ideal Impression Management that basically says that thanks

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Speaker 1: to the rise of platforms like Instagram, when we travel,

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Speaker 1: we are all about getting that perfect picture for social

437
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 1: media and less about sort of where we're at or

438
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: why we're going there, and that this can really be

439
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 1: connected back to the rise of Instagram. Stay right, a

440
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: refreshed code of choreographed movements as photographic practices has emerged

441
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: that did not exist before the popularization of Instagram. Less

442
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: than two percent of the photos analyzed solely feature the

443
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:04,120
Speaker 1: la escape, reinforcing the shift to self presentation strategies as

444
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: the foremost importance.

445
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 3: That's so interesting. I went and read that study, and

446
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 3: you know, the photos that they analyzed were the top

447
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 3: ones for each location recommended by the algorithm. So I

448
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 3: have to wonder, like how much of that is driven

449
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 3: by people wanting social return for themselves, making themselves the

450
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 3: subject of the photo, and how much was driven by

451
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 3: the algorithms rewarding photos that just center people. And so

452
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 3: I thought about that a little bit, and I was like, well, wait,

453
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 3: maybe those are one and the same thing, Like which

454
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 3: came first, the narcissism or the algorithm?

455
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,239
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I love that question, and truly like,

456
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 1: I mean this could be. I want to do a

457
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 1: whole series on this. But how much of what we

458
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: like and what we do is algorithms and how much

459
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: of it is actually us? I feel like in twenty

460
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 1: twenty four, the things are all collapsed and what I

461
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 1: like is just what my algorithm surfaces up to me

462
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: and vice versa. They're one and the same, and like,

463
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: trying to parse them at this point is impossis.

464
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 3: I totally agree. I think, yeah, any attempt to say

465
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 3: that one is purely causally driving the other is just

466
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 3: missing the point.

467
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: So doctor Siegel's work basically says that we're not really

468
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 1: trying to capture memories and we travel anymore. All we're

469
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 1: doing is what she calls self presentation. She writes there's

470
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 1: been a shift in personal photography such that photos are

471
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: used to construct one's idealized identity, which is contrary to

472
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: pass photographic practices as a form of memory documentation. As such,

473
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: users will look to ideals perpetuated by socio cultural norms

474
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 1: to internally assess the level of manipulation that their travel

475
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: images require. And this is apparently especially true on Instagram.

476
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: As Instagram is the most visual social networking site, it

477
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 1: lends itself to self presentation practices more so than other platforms.

478
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: Photographs are much more effective than tax for impression management,

479
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: as the myth of photographic truth lends credibility that is

480
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 1: often missing in texts. Instagram consists primarily of photographs and

481
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 1: therefore intensifies the importance of visual self presentation. However, despite

482
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: the potential for instant image publication, most Instagram images are

483
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: not mere point and shoot style photos and require the

484
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: equivalent of a photo shoot carried out in tourist settings.

485
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 1: So I could not read that bit and not think

486
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: of those fake tourist pictures, do you know what I'm

487
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 1: talking about? Those pictures where everybody goes to Turkey and

488
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 1: they have that same picture of like hot air balloons

489
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: behind them, right, Like, I cannot not think of these

490
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: basically faked tourist photos that have become almost like a

491
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: whole little industry. And I'm not hating on the people

492
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 1: who run these industries because oftentimes their locals and like

493
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: people's fascination with getting this perfect shot means money for

494
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 1: them and money in their pocket, as it should, but

495
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: it's so interesting. A great example is the Gates of

496
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: Heaven Temple in Pali, which is this beautiful temple that

497
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: gets thousands of visitors each year, and you can take

498
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 1: this iconic picture that looks like you're staying under the

499
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: temple on a body of water, and there's this mirror

500
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: image reflected, so it looks like, Wow, you're standing under

501
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,959
Speaker 1: the temple right on this lake, and it's like a

502
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: mirror image that doubles what's being seen in this picture. However,

503
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: apparently there is not any water whatsoever at this temple,

504
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: and what it is is like a guy holding a

505
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: mirror beneath you. And so the image that I think

506
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: of night like like, if you've ever seen an image

507
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: of a temple from Bali, this is this is probably

508
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: like what you're thinking of. That image is partially thaked

509
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: because there is no water there This leads to some

510
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: pretty unhappy reviews from people who saw this picture, traveled there,

511
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,959
Speaker 1: waited in line, and then did not see the like

512
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: expected lake or body of water. Here's one review from

513
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: trip Advisor. The title is Gate to Heaven A really

514
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: long queue. Do you like waiting in queues? Do you

515
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 1: enjoy waking up at three am? Or I love the

516
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: idea of trying to be creative with poses for a photo.

517
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: It's not technically real, per se. I got the perfect

518
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: place for you. This temple is located quite a distance

519
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: from most people's hotels, so for me, I left the

520
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: hotel at three fifteen am to get there by five

521
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: fifteen am. After a shuttle ride and getting a number,

522
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 1: paying the feet of take a photo, and then walking

523
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: up a steep hill, I was finally at the Gate

524
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: of Heaven, but in actuality, it's the gate to a

525
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: very long queue. I got out there by seven am,

526
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: despite being one of the first ones there at five

527
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: fifteen am. The employees here use a trick of the

528
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: camera to create the image that has a reflection. You

529
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: were given three or four poses to take the photo

530
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: of you at the gate. I felt it was kind

531
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: of corny and touristy. I guess if it's one's first

532
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: time in Bali, why not. But anyone who does it

533
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 1: more than once is crazy.

534
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 2: Wow.

535
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 3: I remember when like that story broke, you know, it

536
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 3: was like the story of how those images were this

537
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 3: temple was not what it seemed that mirrors were involved

538
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 3: in creating the sense of this great lake inside the temple,

539
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 3: when in fact it was just like guys holding mirrors.

540
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: So you know how you were saying that it's like

541
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: classic social scientist behavior to identify a thing that everybody

542
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: can already see and sort of given a name, which,

543
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: by the way, you can say that because you are

544
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: a social scientist.

545
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, I say that with love. I mean people

546
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 3: are like, oh, it's just common sense. But it's important

547
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 3: to give things names because then we can, you know,

548
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 3: have a definition and we can all talk about it,

549
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 3: we can get sighted. It's important.

550
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: So doctor Siegel calls that the whole temple thing a

551
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: micro destination, which is a specific place in a tourist

552
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: destination that really pops off on social media content, like

553
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: those blue domes in Santorini, Greece, like these places that

554
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: you would probably need like specific coordinates to recreate that

555
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: specific photo that has now kind of become iconic on

556
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: social media.

557
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember experiencing that same thing at Arches National Park.

558
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 3: We hiked up a mountain in the sun for like

559
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 3: three hours. It was not the hardest hike, but definitely

560
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 3: not an easy hike. It was really windy at the top,

561
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 3: really sunny and hot. And so after all that, we're

562
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 3: up at the top of this very windy, barren, arid

563
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 3: mountain and unforgiving landscape, and what me and my friends

564
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 3: find up there a long queue of people waiting to

565
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 3: take photos in front of the historic arch. And I

566
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 3: definitely got in line, waited like thirty minutes to get

567
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 3: my photo. It was actually kind of a fun experience,

568
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 3: like laughing with the other people up there. But it

569
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 3: was definitely a micro destination like that one spot in

570
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 3: this vast park in an even vaster desert.

571
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: I was on that ship with you many a hat

572
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: blew off. The conditions up there were a lot, I

573
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: remember it very clearly. But we did take that photo.

574
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: So I'm not even saying this like I'm a like

575
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: we're above it. Like what I think it's interesting about

576
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: doctor Segel's work is that it pulls out these things

577
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: that we all do, and so I don't think any

578
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: I'm certainly not above this. I don't think anybody is

579
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: above this. We took that the arch photo. We came

580
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: all that way, like we're not trying to take the photo.

581
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,479
Speaker 1: And so in some ways, part of this is like, well,

582
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: do you blame anybody who like, this is your vacation.

583
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: You spent all this money, you want to get the

584
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: iconic photo, whether it's really a lake or a guy

585
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: holding a mirror or not.

586
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I got it. I'm proud of it. And

587
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 3: it was actually nice communal experience being up there with

588
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 3: all these other people who had hiked up there to

589
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 3: get it. And you know, standing in Q was not

590
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 3: terribly unpleasant because it was an incredibly beautiful spot. So

591
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 3: it's like, Okay, I just got to stand here and

592
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 3: look around at all these beautiful mountains and rock formations

593
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 3: for a while and laugh it up with like this

594
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: family that's standing here in front of me and these

595
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 3: like weird guys who were standing behind me.

596
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of photos, doctor Siegel's research even gets into

597
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: the nitty gritty of the way the particular ways that

598
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: people pose for social media travel photos. So you know

599
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: the shot and you close your eyes and picture you know,

600
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: is that what I'm talking about? The shot of a

601
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: woman walking in motion with like a flowy dress behind

602
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: her in front of a beautiful backdrop, or like the

603
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: photo of somebody sort of candidly not looking at the

604
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: camera with a pretty backdrop behind them.

605
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 3: Hold on while I pull up like five hundred examples

606
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 3: of this on my phone right now.

607
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: No, it turns out we are all just staging this

608
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: those pictures. We are all just staging all of those

609
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: poses all of the time. This is from doctor Siegel's research.

610
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: It's hilarious, but I feel very called out personally. Most

611
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: notable of these poses are the off camera gaze and

612
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: gesticulations of being in motion. Another prominent theme to emerge

613
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: from a content analysis was a facial expression, where in

614
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: the subject's visual gaze was focused somewhere out of the

615
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: camera's view. Only thirty five point three percent of the

616
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: photos and the content analysis featured subjects looking directly at

617
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: or into the camera lens. The research also did on

618
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 1: site ethnographic observations in Bali, which were consistent with the

619
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: findings of the content analysis. Many of those observed taurus

620
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: fix their gaze off camera while posing for photographs. Such

621
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: behavior indicates a clear motivation for the subject to appear

622
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: as if they were caught off guard or in the

623
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: midst of having an enjoyable experience, rather than staging a

624
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: curated photo. Photos in which the subject apparently lacks an

625
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: awareness that they're being photographed are known in popular media

626
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: as plannedids i e. Plan candids. Plandets can also be

627
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: considered a reinvention of URI's concept of the romantic gaze,

628
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: with the purpose of conveying an idealize lifestyle and the

629
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: nonchalance of an intended and performed ignorance to the presence

630
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: of a camera and or documentation of the experience. Oh

631
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,239
Speaker 1: oh me, I wasn't even aware a photo was being

632
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: taken because I'm too busy living in the moment.

633
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 3: You feel a little called out.

634
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: Oh that is my classic, Like, oh my, I'm not

635
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: even look, oh, a picture is being taken. I wasn't aware.

636
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: I was just engrossed in this book I'm reading in

637
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: this beautiful park.

638
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's so funny because so this is

639
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 3: a little bit of a non sequitur, but it does connect.

640
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 3: I've been spending time on Blue Sky recently, which I've

641
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 3: really been enjoying. And my feed includes a lot of

642
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 3: natural landscapes, nature photography and space photography, but also there's

643
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 3: just a lot of AI generated stuff that people are

644
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 3: like engagement farming there, and so there's this AI generated

645
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 3: images purporting to be photographs and being like, hey, this

646
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 3: is fake, this isn't real, Like you should at least

647
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 3: label it as AI generated. But talking about this now,

648
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 3: it really makes me think like, well, what is real? Right? Like,

649
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 3: is is a plan died real? Like, yeah, it's a photograph,

650
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 3: but you know, maybe so what if people are posing

651
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 3: like there they really are there just gazing off into

652
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 3: the distance, thinking about you know, the butler or whatever.

653
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, it reminds me of this thing I saw on

654
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: I think, I think on possibly on Blue Sky where

655
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: it's a picture of a man with his son and

656
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: it's just like beautiful sky and background and somebody asks

657
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: how did you get that sky effect in the photo?

658
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: And he said it was just a regular sky, Like

659
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: what do you mean? It's not the fact, just what's

660
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: the way the sky looked at me? We're outside. I

661
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: feel like every single time I talk about this on

662
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,760
Speaker 1: the show, it sounds like I've just taken a massive

663
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: bong rip, but I swear I have not. When you

664
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: start breaking into like what is real, I mean you

665
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: know that line. Once you start writing, it all becomes fiction,

666
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 1: Like once it's on social media, it all becomes fake.

667
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 1: And so like the question of what is real, it's

668
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: almost like not the right question to be asking, because

669
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: it's like Baudriard's concept of hyperreality, Like it's even what

670
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,959
Speaker 1: you see on Instagram in some ways becomes even more

671
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: real than what would be real otherwise that like you

672
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: couldn't tell me that temple doesn't have a lake at it,

673
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: even though that lake is fake, because I've seen that

674
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: lake on Instagram so many times.

675
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 3: Yes, that's a good point, and I guess you know

676
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 3: now that I think about it. At no point in

677
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 3: any of doctor Siegel's research does she use the word

678
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 3: reeal that I noticed. Right, she's just talking about the

679
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 3: different behaviors that people do, and she's also talking about

680
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 3: their motivations for doing it. Real isn't really even part

681
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 3: of the analysis.

682
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think that's even what she's interested in

683
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 1: in in like grappling with and it almost kind of

684
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: seems like an afterthought of like, well, what is real?

685
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: Like what what does reel mean in this context? And

686
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: I know a lot of this stuff can be funny,

687
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: but it's also pretty serious. You know. The way that

688
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: social media intersects with travel can lead to things over tourism,

689
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: which can be a problem if a place that doesn't

690
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: have the infrastructure to handle a certain level of tourism.

691
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: National Geographic notes that eighty percent of travelers visited just

692
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: ten percent of the world's destination. So like that can

693
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: have a really big impact, and as doctor Siegel puts it,

694
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: it can create a cycle that contributes to more self

695
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 1: indulgent travel. It could also wreak ecological damage and exacerbate

696
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: income disparities. And so it's kind of like navel gayzy

697
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: and interesting to think about this intersection of social media

698
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: and travel behavior. But it also really has, you know,

699
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: talk about what's real what's not. It has very real

700
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: irl offline impacts for these destinations as well, and some

701
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: big tourist destinations are actually working to combat it. So BALI,

702
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:44,919
Speaker 1: which I know we've talked about quite a bit during

703
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 1: this episode, released new guidelines for visitors in June twenty

704
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: twenty three that includes rules about proper behavior and sacred temples,

705
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: rules about how you should behave on the island and

706
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: behave with locals, and rules around respecting the natural environment.

707
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: Tourists now need a license to rent motorbikes and may

708
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: not set foot on any mountain or volcano in Bali

709
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 1: due to their sacred nature. Travelers also have to stay

710
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: and registered hotels and villas, which obviously will impact things

711
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: like Arabian bees, and Bali has introduced a Tourist Task

712
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: Force to enforce these restrictions through raids and investigations if necessary.

713
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: This is all from a piece for CNN dot Com

714
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: that doctor Siegal wrote. Doctor Siegel also points out that

715
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: other destinations have also taken similar steps. Places like Hawaii, Iceland,

716
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: New Zealand, Costa Rica and others have all adopted pledgets

717
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: for visitors to abide by local laws and customs. And

718
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: there's also these big campaigns like Switzerland's No Drama campaign,

719
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: Finland's be More Like a Finn campaign, the Netherlands How

720
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: to Amsterdam campaign, which I think was all about like

721
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: British Party lads coming and probably like indulging too much

722
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: in the t shops etc. And like creating a problem.

723
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: In Austria, they have the sea Vienna not hashtag Vienna campaign,

724
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 1: which really asks for folks to really have a more

725
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: mindful approach to their tourism when they're in Vienna. And

726
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 1: in a study called does social Media help or hurt

727
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: Tourist Destinations? A qualitative case study, doctor Siegel actually looked

728
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: at the tourist board of Vienna with their kind of

729
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: anti hashtag marketing campaign urged that encouraging visitors to go

730
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: offline mult traveling in the city, and she found that

731
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: apparently it's been like pretty well received. To make you

732
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: went to Vienna, was it pre hashtag or post hashtag?

733
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 3: Oh man, I was in Vienna pre iPhone, so it

734
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 3: was definitely pre hashtag. But I loved it. It was

735
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 3: just the coolest, most charming place. I won't get into

736
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 3: the whole thing of it, but what really struck me

737
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 3: about Vienna was that it was both like old and

738
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:02,720
Speaker 3: classical and beautiful, but also like a vibrant, exciting city

739
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 3: where like people lived and worked and loved and played

740
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 3: and all the things. I just had the best time there.

741
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 3: I was so impressed, And so I don't know what

742
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 3: hashtag Vienna is but the actual city that I got

743
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 3: to experience back in those pre iPhone days no further

744
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 3: date specification provided was incredible. And so people if people

745
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,879
Speaker 3: were going there pursuing hashtag Vienna, whatever that might have been,

746
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 3: I do have to wonder if they were missing out

747
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 3: on some of the more subtle beauty that was there

748
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 3: to be had well.

749
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: So that's exactly what doctor siegeal found that the staff

750
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: of the tourist board in Vienna, who created this kind

751
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,959
Speaker 1: of anti hashtag campaign, explained that all these tourists would

752
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: come to Vienna and that their image of Vienna was

753
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: this mis quote metropolis without stress, and yet the tourism

754
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: board felt that visitors to their city were increasingly just

755
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: missing out on these very experiences because they were too

756
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: busy on their dang phones, as my mom would say.

757
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: So this seems like a pretty important observation relevant to

758
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: all these other Instagram driven behaviors that we've already talked

759
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: about that focus on getting this perfect picture for other

760
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: people and having that stand in the way of actually

761
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: being present and enjoying oneself. And that's exactly what I

762
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: think that the Vienna Tourism board, it sounds like was

763
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: trying to combat and y'all. If there is one thing

764
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: I have learned over the last couple of months, it

765
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: is that life is too dang short to live it

766
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 1: for validation or people on your phone or other outside people.

767
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 1: You shouldn't be living it for you. So if you're

768
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: doing any travel over the holiday season, how to keep

769
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 1: that online?

770
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 3: What a nice sentiment, Bridget.

771
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Mike, and thanks for listening. I will

772
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: see all on the internet. Got a story about an

773
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech. I just want to say hi.

774
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: You can reach us at Hello at tengodi dot com.

775
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tengodi

776
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was

777
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of iHeartRadio

778
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tarry

779
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado is

780
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you

781
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: want to help us grow, rate and review.

782
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 2: Us on Apple Podcasts.

783
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

784
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts,