1 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 1: There was a story over the weekend about the singer 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: Macklmore saying fuck America at his show and the crowd cheering. Now, 4 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: Macklmore is well known for trashing Israel and for dressing 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: up in a Jewish costume complete with prosthetic nose. I 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: think it's a very easy leap from jew hater, Israel 7 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: hater to America hater. These things go hand in hand. 8 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: That's not what I want to talk about here. This 9 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: is a man who has made riches beyond our wildest 10 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: imaginations because of this country. He is among the absolute 11 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: luckiest people in history because of his accident of birth. 12 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: And he doesn't get it. He has no idea. Much 13 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: is made of how kids don't learn civics and certainly 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: don't have patriotism instilled in them at school. Of course 15 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: that's true. I had to push my kids Brooklyn Public 16 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: School when they were little to say the Pledge of 17 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: Allegiance despite it being state law to say it daily. 18 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: They told me the school has a lot of immigrants 19 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: and we're trying to cater to that. I informed them 20 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: that both my husband and I are immigrants, and we 21 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: came here to be American, not to be some side 22 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,919 Speaker 1: nationality that never quite adjusts and doesn't get to pledge 23 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: loyalty in this country. I think our decline in patriotism 24 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: is by design, that we're pushed to pretend that we 25 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: didn't all wake up on third base just by getting 26 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: to be American, that America is not that great. Without 27 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: getting too much into politics, Kamala Harris is trying to 28 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: run a patriotic campaign because people do want that. Democrats 29 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: get why this country is so great, but largely have 30 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: to pretend otherwise to appease their leftist's flight. That's a problem. 31 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: Fixing it in schools only be a first step. Think 32 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: about how many generations have already been through an American 33 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: hating system. They've been just seeped in it. I'm not 34 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: sure what to do about that. I always think a 35 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: lot of important conversations start in the home. Anyway. Are 36 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: you raising your kids to understand their sheer luck of 37 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: being American? Are you telling them what makes this country 38 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: the best country in history? Don't be embarrassed to say 39 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: that it's true, we have something special here. It's okay 40 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: to say it out loud. We have to challenge the 41 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: Macalmors of the world who have no problem saying their 42 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: thoughts out loud. Thanks for listening. Launching tomorrow, I'm going 43 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: to have a second podcast. This one is about politics, 44 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: and I'll be co hosting it with my good friend 45 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: Mary Catherine Ham. I'm still going to continue doing this show, 46 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: which is, as you know, largely not about politics, but 47 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: I needed a political outlet too, and MK and I 48 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: have very similar world views. We hope to be funny 49 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: and to bring you perspectives you don't hear anywhere else. 50 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: The show is called Normally. It will run on the 51 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,959 Speaker 1: Clay Travis and Buck Sexton podcast network on iHeartRadio. It'll 52 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: be posted on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and just like this show, 53 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: you can hear it anywhere you get your podcasts. You 54 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: could subscribe starting today. We talk about balance a lot 55 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: on this show. I think it's important to take breaks 56 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: from politics, as I try to do with the Carol 57 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: Markowitz Show. But look, there's also a time to talk 58 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: about important issues, the election, horse race, and so much more. 59 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: We'll be doing that at the Normally podcast. Please go 60 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: subscribe right now. Thank you so much. For listening, and 61 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: I appreciate you all so much. Coming up next and 62 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: interview with Noah Rothman. Join us after the break. 63 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My 64 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 2: guest today is Noah Rothman. Noah is a senior writer 65 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: at National Review and the author of the excellent book 66 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: The Rise of the New Puritans. 67 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 3: So nice to have you on, girl. 68 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. 69 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 3: So who are the New Puritans? 70 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 5: Just out of curiosity, Well, the New Puritans as distinct 71 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 5: from the old Puritans, both, by the way, the misconception 72 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 5: of Puritanism as Victorianism, as sort of staid, blue nosed, 73 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 5: condescending prudishness versus big p Puritans, you know, the sixteen hundred, 74 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 5: seventeen hundreds mainline Protestant New England or Congregationalist New England. 75 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 5: There's a lot of definitional. 76 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 4: Mix up here. 77 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 5: So the New Puritans, as I define them, are really 78 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 5: an intellectual tradition that dates back to the old Puritanism, 79 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 5: and its home is in progressivism. Properly understood. Progressivism arose 80 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 5: from the ashes of the Puritan experiment in mainline New 81 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 5: England and it was a moral crusade as as much 82 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 5: as it was a public policy endeavor, and it had 83 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 5: a moral element to quite quite a few of the 84 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 5: of the public policy preferences that this movement pursued. And 85 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 5: it was typified by an idea that all of society's 86 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,799 Speaker 5: engines must be harnessed to all drive in the same direction. 87 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 5: So there could not be anything that exists outside politics. Right, 88 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 5: every every every facet of the social contract had to 89 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 5: be reflective of this overarching moral desire familiar. So you 90 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 5: couldn't have entertainment products that didn't, for example, serve a 91 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 5: useful purpose. That everything had to have a utilitarian aspect 92 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 5: to it. Athletics had to have a martial dimension. You 93 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 5: couldn't you couldn't have art for art's sake. You could 94 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 5: have furniture makers or headstone designers, or people who were 95 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 5: skilled at portraiture, because these were useful. You were leaving 96 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 5: a record for posterity. Anything else was idle and illness 97 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 5: as a sin. And you see this throughout the modern 98 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 5: progressive ethos, which and part of the book maintains that 99 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:07,119 Speaker 5: on the left, the sort of the licentiousness and libertinism 100 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 5: that typified the sexual revolution, and that left leaning tradition 101 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 5: was an aberration and a departure really from their otherwise 102 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 5: moralistic framework when you start to see this moralistic framework 103 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 5: arise in this progressive left. So the book breaks this 104 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 5: down because there is a moral dimension to this is 105 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 5: not necessarily worth criticizing. The excesses of it are, but 106 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 5: the remoralization of society, as Gertrude Himmelfarb would have called it, 107 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 5: isn't necessarily something to look askance upon. So the chapters 108 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 5: are organized in virtues, piety, prudence, austerity, temperance, harmony, and 109 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 5: order of the fear of God. All these things are 110 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:51,799 Speaker 5: good in their properly understood dimensions. It's when they become 111 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 5: expanded to apply to every aspect of society, even innocuous 112 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 5: stuff like the fashion you wear in the sports you 113 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 5: watch in your hobb these decoration and knitting and fishing 114 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 5: and gardening and all that stuff has become adulterated so 115 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 5: that a particular cast of people can peel back the 116 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 5: curtain and see the hideous hidden workings of the world 117 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 5: that they, with their exclusive sense of propriety, can see, 118 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 5: but you can't. It's a very psychologically satisfying outlook, but 119 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 5: it also leads you to madness. And this book identifies 120 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 5: the madness and tries to identify ways in which you 121 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 5: can mute the tendency that you, maybe as a progressive 122 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 5: puritan yourself, feel to impose your moral framework on the 123 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 5: world around you. 124 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 3: How did you get interested in this? 125 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 4: Like? 126 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 3: What was the spark? 127 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 5: So the origins of this book date back to early 128 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 5: twenty twenty, and it was the height of the pandemic 129 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 5: and I was just miserable. And so my job is 130 00:07:55,440 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 5: consuming the headlines and trying to tease out, you know, 131 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 5: thoughts and takes and what have you and publish them. 132 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 5: We're in the same business, you know, And that was 133 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 5: a really unsatisfying time to be doing that. So I'm 134 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 5: sitting in the bath of my wife and we're just 135 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 5: and I'm I'm commiserating because I'm miserable. 136 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 3: Are you sitting in the bath with your life bathtub? 137 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: Oh? 138 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 3: With your wife? 139 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 4: With my wife? 140 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 3: Okayy's it. 141 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 5: Trust me, It's not as sallacious as it sounds, because 142 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 5: I'm just having a glass of wine and I'm miserable. 143 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 5: And she's like, she asks me, I think you know 144 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 5: what what would you do to make yourself happy and 145 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 5: also drive some income in out of it so we 146 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 5: can pay the mortgage. 147 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 4: It's like, well, you know, if I had my. 148 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 5: Brothers, I would spend a lot of my time talking 149 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 5: to work in comics, professional stand ups, maybe screenwriters, and 150 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 5: maybe people who make food for a living or talk 151 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 5: about sports for a living. You know, stuff that is 152 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 5: supposed to, you know, be outside the political arena. But no, no, no, no, 153 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 5: you can't because nothing outside the political arena anymore. Everything 154 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 5: is hyper politicized. Everything has a political dimension to it. 155 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 5: So even that wouldn't be very fun. And she says, well, 156 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 5: that's that's the book, isn't it. Like you go out 157 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 5: and you talk to all these all these people who 158 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 5: you want to talk to and about the ways in 159 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 5: which they're a political vocation has been politicized and why 160 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 5: it's making them miserable too. 161 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 4: Ah, that's a good idea. 162 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 5: So the so I spent a lot of time talking 163 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 5: to comics when I was researching the book. Many of 164 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 5: them don't necessarily want to be named because they're contributing 165 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 5: to a political product. But you know, I was talking 166 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 5: to Nolan Dorman at the Comedy Seller, who plugged me 167 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 5: into a lot of people, Shane Gillis, who was at 168 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 5: the time on the Ropes and it was very dimished 169 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 5: with his time. Yeah, very generous to me, and you 170 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 5: know a variety of others, you know, chefs and screenwriters 171 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 5: and people in the business. But it was that was 172 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 5: just the war on fund. The subtitle of the book 173 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 5: is Fighting Back against Progressives, War on Fun, and so 174 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 5: it was a litany of all the ways in which 175 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 5: progressives are adulterating the things that you enjoy and making 176 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 5: the political and sapping them of their enjoyment. It was 177 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 5: my editor at HarperCollins, Eric Nelson, who helped identify the 178 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 5: intellectual tradition of Puritanism in the book. And the thing is, 179 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 5: this is something my dad told me a long time 180 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 5: ago that always stuck with me, is that when the 181 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 5: universe gives you a good idea, you can assume that 182 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 5: it's given it to fifty thousand other people and it's 183 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 5: just a race to get it to market. 184 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 4: That is your job. Just get it to market as 185 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 4: fast as possible. 186 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 5: And there was another book almost by the same title 187 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 5: called The New Puritans published in the UK, I think 188 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 5: about a month after. 189 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 3: I published my book You Real Happy. 190 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 5: Oh that's just thrilling. I haven't finished it all the way. 191 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 5: It's a fine book, and we all touch on very 192 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:56,839 Speaker 5: similar subjects. The competition has a little more sour note 193 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 5: to it, like this is, you know, all depressing and 194 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 5: awful and things are going on in the wrong direction, 195 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 5: and my book takes a slightly different approach. It's supposed 196 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 5: to be fun, supposed to be supposed to be humorous, 197 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 5: because that was the mood I was in. I was 198 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 5: the sentiment I was trying to channel for myself. This 199 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 5: was all a very self indulgent effort to try to 200 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 5: pick myself up out of the dulgrums of the pandemic 201 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 5: and write about something fun and funny and make fun 202 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 5: of these people because they are parodic. 203 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 3: It's funny. 204 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 5: So it struck a different tone and maybe didn't meet 205 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 5: the moment in so far as people didn't really want 206 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 5: to be happy, right, they were miserable like me and 207 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 5: wanted to have their sense of fatalism confirmed. Perhaps. I 208 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 5: mean that's something you and I think encounter very far. 209 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 2: Yes, So it's interesting. Dave Marcus, you know, also a writer. 210 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 2: He and I disagree on lots and lots of things, 211 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 2: but he once said this thing that I really agree with, 212 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: that comedy kind of has to be outside of woke influence. 213 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 6: It's sort of one of the few air is that 214 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 6: just really can't be that influenced by wokeness. 215 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: I mean they try, obviously, but you know, it's either 216 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 2: we laugh or we don't. 217 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 3: So what do you think of that? 218 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's another. 219 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 5: It dovetails with something that I once heard in I 220 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 5: think the mid two thousands when I was working in 221 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 5: and around comedy talk radio at the time, which is 222 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 5: that funny and sexy can't coexist. 223 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 3: Really. 224 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, like you, there's a self seriousness associated with the 225 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 5: effort to seduce and seduction and pursuing a partner boldly, 226 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 5: aggressively assertively that steals from you self deprecation and makes 227 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 5: you a much more serious person. And serious isn't necessarily funny. 228 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 5: In fact, it's generally not funny, not a stand up myself. 229 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 5: When I write comedy, it's you know, it's for particular tastes. 230 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 5: So I can't say that I have an especially a 231 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 5: finally at tuned sense of what constitutes universally you know, 232 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 5: universally accepted humor or something that actually appeals to a 233 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 5: mass market when it comes to humor. 234 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 4: But Dave's observation sounds sounds right to me. 235 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 5: There's an element to wokeism, and we would probably have 236 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 5: to define our terms, but let's just assume you. 237 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 3: All know I feel like that. 238 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, there's an element of that that is very severe, 239 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 5: very harsh, and its members fancy themselves particularly moral, righteous, 240 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 5: upstanding people, especially in contrast to the world around them, 241 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 5: the society around them, which just does not. And this 242 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 5: is a very puritanical outlook too big p puritan like 243 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 5: original Puritans, is that the mark of a morally virtuous 244 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 5: person is someone who devotes themselves holy to addressing the 245 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 5: ills of the world around them. If you're spending any 246 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 5: waking moment not thinking about the ways in which other 247 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 5: people are suffering and what you can do to alleviate 248 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 5: that suffering, which is again in the abstract and noble philosophy, 249 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 5: then you're indulging in a sinful almost a distance from 250 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 5: the world around you. You've you've isolated yourself, and you've 251 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 5: removed yourself from the existence that you should be as 252 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 5: a as a virtuous person working to improve. 253 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 3: Sounds very communist. 254 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 2: Actually like you should be thinking about the party at 255 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 2: all times, and how you can support the party and 256 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 2: improve the party and spread the gospel of the party. 257 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 5: And everything exists within an inside inside of party politics 258 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 5: and nothing outside of it, because anything outside of it 259 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 5: is uncontrolled and wild and natural, and that's dangerous. And 260 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 5: one of the chapters in the book is about comedy. 261 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 5: It's about stand up comedy and food. There's two things 262 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 5: you wouldn't think would go together, save for the fact 263 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 5: that you need you need people to buy a meal 264 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 5: and two drinks to get out. 265 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 4: Of the club. 266 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 5: But the the tethering element is that these two conditions, 267 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 5: too to to two vocations evoke in you natural reactions 268 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 5: that are not intellectual exercises. Right when the laugh escapes 269 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 5: your gut, right exactly when you enjoy a meal that 270 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 5: has been culturally appropriated from natural indigenous peoples of x 271 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 5: y z I love you just enjoyed that meal you have, 272 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 5: you'll release a sigh of relief because you liked it, 273 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 5: not because it's an intellectual exercise. In fact, the intellect 274 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 5: has to intervene after you laugh, after you sigh, to say, 275 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:42,479 Speaker 5: oh maybe. 276 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 3: I maybe maybe I shouldn't have right. 277 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 5: And that's so, and that's why it's threatening to a 278 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 5: particular sort of totalitarian not authoritarian totalitarian. Interesting that you 279 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 5: know that that sort of uh, your body betrays you 280 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 5: in those moments, and that's threatening if you intend to 281 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 5: control people's conduct, behavior, outlook, and even what they think. Yeah, 282 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 5: because that is that is nature intervening, right, and you. 283 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 3: Can't do anything about that. Yeah. So what do you 284 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 3: worry about societally? 285 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 6: Like, what do you think is our largest cultural problem? 286 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 4: Yes? 287 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 5: So I've done a fair amount of thinking on this, 288 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 5: and it's hard to narrow down, but I would say, 289 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 5: if I had to identify one, if not the largest, 290 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 5: but this is the largest social societal problem cultural problem, 291 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 5: I would settle on the increase in cultural cachet that 292 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 5: we attribute to persecution complexes. It is and conservatives properly 293 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 5: understood the right from the intellectual tradition from which I hail, 294 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 5: which has been under some renovation in recent years, is 295 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 5: the victimization has a has currency to it, and it's 296 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 5: a sort of way in which you can paper over 297 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 5: your individual deficiencies and prop yourself up on the backs 298 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 5: of those who have genuinely suffered or endured something resembling 299 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 5: persecutorial conduct that gets you over the hump, that advances 300 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 5: your career objectives, your interpersonal objectives, and it creates a 301 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 5: popular front mentality or at least incentivizees ones which and that. 302 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 5: So you if you all have this persecution complex, and 303 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 5: you can paper over the problems that you as an 304 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 5: individual have because you can lay claim to some sort 305 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 5: of persecution narrative, then you compel somebody who would otherwise 306 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 5: engage in basic social hygiene to subordinate that impulse, to say, Okay, well, 307 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 5: I guess you're part of the team too, because you've 308 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 5: got that same persecution story, and we can contribute to 309 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 5: that persecution story by shunning you or criticizing you or 310 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 5: correcting you. All these things steal agency both from the 311 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 5: individual who suffers from this outlook and from the people 312 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 5: around them who believe they have to genuflect before it 313 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 5: and declear fealty to it. If no one is responsible 314 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 5: for their own lots in life, then a lot of 315 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 5: people who have made very poor decisions, who are reckless 316 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 5: or irresponsible to created circumstances. Yeah for themselves and others. 317 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 5: They're they're sympathetic. Now they're not they're not the authors 318 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 5: of their own lots in life. Things have been done 319 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 5: to them by omniscient, unseen forces we can't even really define, 320 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 5: but you know they're out there and they're working to steal. 321 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 4: That which is your due. 322 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 5: It's a it's superficially empowering. People feel empowered by this outlook, 323 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 5: but it is debilitating, robs you of your capacity to 324 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 5: mold your environment, to navigate your environment. 325 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: It's a sort of control of your destiny, really, the 326 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 2: control of your destiny. 327 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's available. It's obvious across the political spectrum on 328 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 5: the left. I think intersectionality has has done a lot 329 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 5: of the leg work here because it's that intersectionality, which 330 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 5: is just this as a thought experiment, is not actually 331 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 5: wholly invalid, just to define the terms it. Essentially, it's 332 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 5: an academic theory posited by Kimberly Crenshaw Williams, which posits 333 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 5: that everybody experiences different prejudices in their life, so those 334 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 5: prejudices intersect and overlap if you are multiple things. So 335 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 5: if you're a gay black woman, you will experience more 336 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 5: prejudice in your life than a gay black man, because 337 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 5: women experience more prejudice than men, et cetera. So it's 338 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 5: just something that makes you think in stereotypes, so that 339 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 5: ostensibly you can navigate those stereotypes. But in the end 340 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 5: of that, at the end, if you're just thinking in stereotypes, 341 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 5: you're still a bigot. You're you're just doing it for 342 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 5: what you believe to be noble services, which, by the way, 343 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 5: all bigots. 344 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 3: Believe that, of course they do. 345 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's never been a bigot who thinks that 346 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 2: they are bad. 347 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 6: Right, They're always trying to do good, they're always trying 348 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 6: to help. 349 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, but this is just layering a superficial academic gloss 350 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 5: over whether it's basically ancient tribal instincts, tribal impulses. 351 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 4: And you see that there is. 352 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,719 Speaker 5: Something similar on the Trump right, the pro Trump right, 353 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 5: where Donald Trump who has argued that he is not 354 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 5: a conservative, that the Republican Party is not a conservative 355 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 5: party straightforward in those terms I'm not even paraphrasing. Yeah, 356 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 5: he has replaced that philosophy, a limited government philosophy which 357 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 5: emphasizes individual agency and individual responsibility both for your circumstances 358 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 5: and those around you, and replaced it with something of 359 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 5: resembling a persecution complex that all these things are being 360 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 5: done to us. There are all these forces around us 361 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 5: that we can't really define, but you know they're there 362 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 5: and they need to be crushed. There needs to be 363 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 5: some sort of vengeance, after which we will ascend to 364 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 5: the sunlit uplands of a world in which we can 365 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 5: finally resume control over our lives. But you'll never get there. 366 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 5: You'll never get to that place. You've already sacrificed the 367 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 5: agency you need. 368 00:20:58,480 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 4: To get there. 369 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 6: We're going to take a quick break and be right 370 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 6: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. 371 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 3: Is this solvable on either the right or the left. 372 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a new innovation relatively. I mean, it's the 373 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 5: thing is that it's an intellectual exercise. Liberalism, classical liberalism, 374 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 5: is an intellectual exercise. It's the you know, it's it's 375 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 5: an effort that we engage in to subordinate what these 376 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 5: tribal instincts in order to pursue a more galitarian social compact. 377 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 5: And if you're beholden to the egalitarian social compact, most postliberals, 378 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 5: which are really preliberals, do not don't necessarily believe in 379 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 5: universal egalitarianism, and they have they have their own problems 380 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 5: with it. But if you do, if you do subscribe 381 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 5: to that ideal as an ideal, then yeah, you've got 382 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 5: to do a lot of thinking around it. There is 383 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 5: a robust enterprise on both sides of the aisle dedicated 384 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 5: to giving you license to not do that intellectual exercise, 385 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 5: to not engage in that it is a fruitless pursuit, 386 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 5: a flawed pursuit, something that is the sort of thing 387 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 5: that only point the eggheads would really care about, and 388 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 5: look at the circumstances that we're in, and all these 389 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 5: people have delivered us to this wholly undesirable place. It 390 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 5: is also something we're going to talk more about this 391 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 5: because this is very There's a lot of incentives towards 392 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 5: this line of thinking on social media, which is itself 393 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 5: a tribal enterprise of course, but if you commit yourself 394 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 5: to that line of thinking, you know you also risk 395 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 5: divorcing yourself from the rest of American civilization that does 396 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 5: not believe we have entered into the worst place we 397 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 5: have ever been in. People who are responding to polls 398 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 5: are very likely to say, I'm upset with my circumstances. 399 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 5: I'm upset with the economy. I think the country is 400 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 5: on the wrong track. These are close to universal propositions 401 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 5: at this point. But if you were to say, as 402 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 5: people who get really deep into this philosophy do the 403 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 5: post liberal philosophy do, that we are in some of 404 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,719 Speaker 5: the worst, most unenviable circumstances that any generation before us 405 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 5: has ever experienced. And you say that with a straight face, 406 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 5: you are making a mockery of yourself. 407 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 3: Right. 408 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 5: Of course, you were demonstrating that you have no historical reference, 409 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 5: no historical memory. 410 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the. 411 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 6: Times might have been worse before. 412 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 5: No, I mean, like I've had this argument with my 413 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 5: parents who lived through nineteen sixty eight, were in were 414 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 5: twenty or nineteen at the time, and this was these 415 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 5: sixty eight seventy seventy one. I mean, we're talking about 416 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 5: shockingly high crime rates, riots that erupted in every major 417 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 5: urban center in the country, a campaign of assassination that 418 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 5: was taking out American leaders left and right, a bombing campaign, 419 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 5: a domestic bombing campaign in which explosives were going off 420 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 5: in private homes, maiming and killing people. 421 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 4: On a weekly basis. I wasn't there. I only read 422 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 4: about it. 423 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, But to. 424 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 5: Say that that circumstance compares unfavorably with our own today. 425 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 5: Right seems to me kind of crazy, but it is, 426 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 5: And I don't I put my folks on the line here, 427 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 5: but there's everywhere not. 428 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 2: To agree completely with the Rothmans. But you know, my 429 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 2: thing about that is, yes, times were worse, but for 430 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 2: example crime, we got things to a much better place, 431 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 2: and then we threw away everything that helped us get there. 432 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 2: We decided that all the policies that fixed a place 433 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 2: like you know, my beloved New York City were no 434 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: longer needed. And so while I totally get that, we're 435 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 2: obviously in a much better place than nineteen sixty eight, 436 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 2: and you know, crime rates for example, and all the 437 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 2: different cities are lower than they were then. We got 438 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 2: them far lower than they are now, and now we 439 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 2: have to battle our way back to that. So it's 440 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 2: not that it's worse. It's clearly not worse. But it 441 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 2: concerns me in a different way because I don't think 442 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 2: you had to talk anybody into believing crime was real 443 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty eight, and now it's like acceptance is 444 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 2: the first step and we haven't gotten there. 445 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 5: That is, I would totally subscribe to all that, and 446 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 5: I would probably pause it that there is a deliberate, 447 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 5: politically motivated unlearning of history's lessons that has contributed to 448 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 5: a lot of those factors. The way that let's just 449 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 5: talk about crime briefly, the way that people talk about 450 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 5: how to deliver American cities from the unrest that they're 451 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 5: currently experiencing is as though it all needs to happen 452 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 5: at once, and it all needs to happen from the 453 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 5: top down, right, as though we just we elect the 454 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 5: right mayor, we let the revity council, and everything changes, 455 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 5: and it is not how it happened in New York 456 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 5: City exactly. Your city was a ground up thing. I 457 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 5: mean the first of all, a lot of it is 458 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 5: attributable to these neighborhood associations, which block by block associations. 459 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 5: Times Square was the last thing to be affected by 460 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 5: this process. You know, the idea here that we could 461 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 5: clean up the streets by dealing with quality of life crimes, 462 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 5: as represented, for example, by the existence of smut shops. 463 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 5: You know, that was first tried under the Queensboro Bridge 464 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 5: and successfully before it migrated to the rest of the city. 465 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 5: The broken windows theory promulgated by, among others, James Q. 466 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 5: Wilson in the Manhattan Institute. Was an idea before it 467 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 5: was adopted, before it was you know, came up from 468 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 5: the bottom up. What we're contending with now are the 469 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 5: fruits of ideas that have spent many years incubating in 470 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 5: far left right campuses and intellectual salons. 471 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, don't prosecute crime, you know, it's just it's an 472 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 2: idea that has now become implemented. 473 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 5: And was popular in the nineteen sixties when we're talking 474 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 5: about root causes and poverty, for example, as being the 475 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 5: primary indicator of future criminality, which is utterly false and 476 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 5: has been proven false. But it was a fashionable idea 477 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 5: at the time. But that spent, you know, a decade 478 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 5: and a half percolating before it doubled up to the 479 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 5: surface and became public policy. We're talking now about ideas 480 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 5: that were incubated in the late eighties, early nineties, implemented 481 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 5: in two thousands, and are coming to fruition today. These 482 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 5: are decades long processes. If you want to get in 483 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 5: the ground and do the work and you know, make 484 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 5: create consensuses on the ground that can be that are 485 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 5: replicable and that can be duplicated and put and implement 486 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 5: it at scale. It begins small begins small scale. It's 487 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 5: not the sort of and it does begin with talking 488 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 5: about it as we've been talking about it, grand ideas 489 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 5: and grand visions, but the actual nitty gritty of implementation 490 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 5: and creating consensuses across political coalitions to implement this sort 491 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 5: of thing for the general good. That's a that's a 492 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 5: laborious process and it's not why you can. 493 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 2: Try how quickly they undid it. Yes, you're absolutely it 494 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 2: is a long process. But like, wow, it got undid, 495 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: you know, in four years. 496 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 5: I mean just because it exploded really into twenty and 497 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 5: with this fashionable moral panic in the George Floyd are 498 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 5: around the notion that police were just slaughtering African Americans 499 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 5: on it on the daily basis. I just weren't seeing it. 500 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 5: That was the sort of thing that I mean, you 501 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 5: can only call it a moral panic, it was, But 502 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 5: it lit a fire under what were underlying ideas that 503 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 5: had been attractive to a particular type of left wing 504 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 5: social reformer for a very long time. They had the 505 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 5: plans ready to go in the drawer, It just needed 506 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 5: the space to implement them, which is, you know, that's 507 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 5: something I actually lived by because it's a story about 508 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 5: Robert Moses was this New York City, a very powerful 509 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 5: person in New York City, was responsible for love of 510 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 5: the infrastructure there. But the story about him is that 511 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 5: he always had the plans ready to go. He had 512 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 5: the legislation written, he had the plan to generate more 513 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 5: revenue for his agency, and the construction plans. 514 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 4: It was all laid out. 515 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 5: Only needed was the political space to implement them. That's 516 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 5: what conservative right needs to have is a framework, intellectual framework, 517 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 5: and the really detailed policy paper to implement these philosophies 518 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 5: when they're ready to go. And part of the reason 519 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 5: why Democrats are doing so much to demonize project, which 520 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 5: is like nine out of ten pages of that gigantic 521 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 5: document are really anodyne. They're basic accepted conservative policy preferences, 522 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 5: and sometimes the way they talk about them is rather comical. 523 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 5: Democrats talk about them, it's rather comical, like, oh, my gosh, 524 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 5: Trump wants to subordinate all executive agencies to the president? 525 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 6: Yes, can you even imagine? 526 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 5: But but you know, it's it's a controversial stuff around 527 00:29:53,440 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 5: social doctrine that really generates traction with demo cratic voters. 528 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 5: But a lot of the stuff in there that seems 529 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 5: kind of silly to us, I think probably sounds pretty 530 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 5: silly to most other people, like the idea that the 531 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 5: president should be responsible for his own executive agencies. 532 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 2: Of course, right, So, Noah, you come up with book 533 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 2: ideas in the bathtub with your wife. You have a 534 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 2: very nice perch at National Review, where you can write about, 535 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 2: you know, most things that interest you. 536 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 3: Do you feel like you've made it? 537 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 5: So sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. The times 538 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 5: I do are predicated on again, kind of in intellectualization 539 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 5: of my circumstances. Because I have the family that I 540 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 5: always wanted. That's nice, that is n the house and 541 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 5: the community that I've always wanted. I really don't even 542 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 5: plan on moving. Like my material circumstances are great, and 543 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 5: I am satisfied. I have the career that I always wanted, 544 00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 5: like my I'm fulfilled in that sense, but not professionally. Professionally, 545 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 5: I don't feel like I've I've done everything that I 546 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 5: want to achieve, and that would be kind of awful. 547 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 4: If you did, then what else we'd all be? 548 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 3: Like chilling on islands? 549 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,479 Speaker 5: Yeah, right, No, I have some ambition. I don't think 550 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 5: I've written enough books. I don't think I get on 551 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 5: camera enough. I get down and depressed when the pieces 552 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 5: that I write don't get the engagement or the shares 553 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 5: I think they deserve. 554 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 3: This is genius. Why don't you all see this? 555 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 4: You know? 556 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 5: And and when the feedback you know that you get 557 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 5: as is negative, which is very frequently, you know, sometimes 558 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 5: it can be a bit of a downer. So do 559 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 5: I feel like you know I've I've I've hit all 560 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 5: my marks in life? 561 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 3: No? 562 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 4: All right, well there's a lot more. 563 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 3: Watch to see where you go next and what the. 564 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 5: Next, but there's a lot that will be I mean, 565 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 5: but those two things are in conflict, right. I'm not 566 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 5: sure how you navigate that or if you experience that, 567 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 5: but if your material circumstances are pretty well set, you 568 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 5: risk losing ambition. 569 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 4: Right. 570 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 5: I don't feel any particular age urgency to write another book. 571 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 5: I'd like to write another book about something that needs 572 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 5: to be written, not just to write another book. Right, 573 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 5: So looking around for whatever that overarching topic is that 574 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 5: doesn't can't just be truncated down into an essay and 575 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 5: would be better as an essay, and just you know, 576 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 5: the lack of material urgency there does limit my you know, 577 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 5: desire to pull this. 578 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 4: Out of the universe. 579 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 5: Like I'm looking, I'm not scouring the landscape for something 580 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 5: because I so desperately need, you know, to get an advance. 581 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, I mean I don't know. I'm a year 582 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 2: plus past my first book, and I still say it 583 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,959 Speaker 2: will be the only book. I have no interest in 584 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 2: ever doing that ever. Again, I don't know how we'll 585 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 2: do it. Oh no, I don't know. 586 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 3: I don't know. I just found it really hard. 587 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 4: And it was hard. You didn't think it was rewarding. 588 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 6: Rewarding, Yeah, I mean I it was rewarding. 589 00:32:59,080 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 3: I don't know. 590 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 2: I stayed on book tour a long long time, which 591 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 2: everybody you know says is a great positive, But I 592 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 2: just didn't love all of that. 593 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's tough, and I love meeting the way. Yeah, 594 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 3: selling is not great. 595 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 6: But you know, negotiating how many books are you going 596 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 6: to speak for? 597 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 3: And all of that. 598 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 6: But I love meeting people. I love having conversations with strangers. 599 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 6: I'm all about that. 600 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 2: But you know, I do feel like I've made it 601 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 2: and I want to be home with my family, enjoying 602 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: the you know. 603 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,959 Speaker 6: The things that I consider having. 604 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 4: That's me too, and that's just poison. 605 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 5: Anytime somebody asked me to get on a plane, really, 606 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 5: is it worth it? 607 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 4: Is it necessary? 608 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 3: Now? 609 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 4: I'd rather be hanging out in my basement. 610 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 3: That's it. That's that's really what it's all about. 611 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 2: So well, Noah, thank you so much for coming on 612 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 2: and here with your best tip for my listeners on 613 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 2: how they can improve their lives. 614 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 5: So this is kind of tails with what we've been 615 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 5: talking about previously, but really best for you to limit 616 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 5: your social media intake to including getting rid of all 617 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 5: your accounts if you don't need them. I have a 618 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 5: Twitter account and need it for work. I don't have 619 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 5: any other account, and I make a scrupulous effort to 620 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 5: log the hell off really on the weekends and even 621 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 5: at night. Sometimes I have to be on that at 622 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 5: night because I have no idea what I'm writing about 623 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 5: in the morning, and I just need some sort of inspiration. 624 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 5: But if you can hack it, limit your social media 625 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 5: exposure as much as possible. That's not just that you're 626 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 5: absorbing all this the toxicity that this environment insensivizes, but 627 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,240 Speaker 5: it creates an incentive structure for you to be a liar. 628 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 5: You lie to your audience if you want to get 629 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 5: the kind of food pellet to drop down and give 630 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 5: you the reward structure that you get from engagement, positive engagement, 631 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 5: not negative engifts. So a lot of people get jazzed 632 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 5: by negative engagement too, but those people have other psychologic. 633 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:01,240 Speaker 3: Right have problem. 634 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 5: But if you start developing a brand for yourself, who 635 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 5: it's the worst possible thing you could do a temptation 636 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 5: to say things to maintain the brand you're you will 637 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,439 Speaker 5: be confronted with the temptation to say things you don't 638 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 5: believe or not say things you do believe. Just by 639 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 5: virtue of the you'll be committing sins of omission and commission, 640 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 5: and you'll be therefore inauthentic. Your brand, such as it is, 641 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 5: will not be worth very much because it's not real. 642 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,479 Speaker 5: It's just it's and risking. The backlash on social media 643 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 5: feels very real because there's you know, hundreds, if not 644 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 5: thousands of people telling you thought, yeah, I mean, that's 645 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 5: psychologically taxing, it's unrewarding, it's uncomfortable. Anybody would want to 646 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 5: avoid that circumstance and get the funds part, the fun 647 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 5: part being, you know, the engagement, the positive feedback, the reinforcement, 648 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 5: the sense of community that develops around that. It's all fictional, 649 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 5: none of it's real. And if you can get out 650 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 5: of that environment for a sustained peereriod of time a 651 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 5: weekend for example, yeah, you get to reconnect to what 652 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 5: is real and how and restore a sense of perspective 653 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 5: on what these forums actually are. 654 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 4: So my suggestion is to log off as much as possible. 655 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 2: I like that he is Noah Rothman. He is a 656 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 2: senior writer at National Review. Check him out there and 657 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 2: pick up his book, The Rise of the New Puritans. 658 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on, Noah. 659 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: Thank you, Kerl, thanks so much for joining us on 660 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: the Carol Marco which show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.