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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, New and very disturbing details

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Speaker 1: emerging surrounding the Brian Coberger quadruple murder case. Good evening,

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us.

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Speaker 2: What happened the fateful night of the University of Idaho

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Speaker 2: for murders. New theories revealed in a special episode with

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Speaker 2: author Howard.

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Speaker 1: Bloom, Thank you for being with us with us, Author

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Speaker 1: Howard Bloom has just come out with an incredible book

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Speaker 1: full chock full of not only theories, but facts supporting

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Speaker 1: the theory supporting the hypothesis of the prosecution that Brian

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Speaker 1: Coberg in fact murdered for young University Idaho students. Howard Bloom,

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Speaker 1: you describe in depth what happens with the two surviving roommates,

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Speaker 1: Dylan and Bethany.

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Speaker 3: Listen in the early morning hours between four am and

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Speaker 3: four thirty am, Dylan Mortensen says she calls out to

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Speaker 3: her friends, who she thinks her being too loud. After

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Speaker 3: hearing more loud noises, Mortenson again tells her roommates to

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Speaker 3: calm down, she's trying to sleep. She turns and locks

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Speaker 3: their door, hearing loud noises again. Mortensen opens the door

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Speaker 3: and sees Brian Coberger allegedly and believing him to be

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Speaker 3: a partygoer who is leaving, says nothing, shuts and locks

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Speaker 3: her door again.

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Speaker 1: The girl that lived, According to prosecutors, Brian Coburger went

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Speaker 1: into the home on King Road with a mission to

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Speaker 1: commit the perfect murder. Could he actually commit mass murder

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Speaker 1: and not leave a trace behind? And what about the

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Speaker 1: two that lived? Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk.

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Speaker 2: Listen.

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Speaker 3: Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk are both home while their

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Speaker 3: friends are murdered upstairs and are left unharmed. Sources tell

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Speaker 3: ABC News and author Howard Bloom that Mortenson and Funk

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Speaker 3: were using their cell phones to communicate before, during, and

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Speaker 3: after the murders. Many have wondered, since Mortenson and Funk

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Speaker 3: were both in the home and on their cell phones

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Speaker 3: when the murders are taking place, why is there an

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Speaker 3: eight hour delay before police are called in? Why were

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Speaker 3: other friends called before police?

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Speaker 1: Howard Bloom joining us with an all star panel, and guys,

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Speaker 1: remember we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump

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Speaker 1: in with your own theories and questions. The state could

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Speaker 1: use them.

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Speaker 2: Howard Bloom.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious as well, and you devote a lot of

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Speaker 1: time to this in your book when the night comes

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Speaker 1: falling about the delay on Dylan Mortenson's part, she actually

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Speaker 1: sees the killer leaving the home. There is a serious delay,

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Speaker 1: and during that time a lot of evidence could and

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Speaker 1: most likely was lost. Question to you. You described the

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Speaker 1: police grappling with that's seven to eight hour delay.

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Speaker 4: Describe that the police are dumbfounded.

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Speaker 5: They can't understand how this girl could see a killer

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Speaker 5: in the house and do nothing about it. Her behavior

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Speaker 5: is irrational, and I think though ultimately the police and

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Speaker 5: I have concluded that a rational explanation is impossible. I

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Speaker 5: think she was locked in a state of terror. I

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Speaker 5: also believe Coberger has he descended and passed her on

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Speaker 5: his way out of the house, was locked in his

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Speaker 5: own state of mania. He was surrounded by his own

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Speaker 5: armory of hate, if you will. If Dylan had spoken out,

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Speaker 5: if she had tried to penetrate the moment that he

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Speaker 5: was locked in, I think she would have died. I

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Speaker 5: think she would have become another victim her terror. Her

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Speaker 5: silence saved her life.

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Speaker 1: You know, I haven't really thought about it in the

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Speaker 1: way that you just stated it, which is chilling. Just

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author

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Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of

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Speaker 1: a hit series body Bags podcast. We've gone round and

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Speaker 1: round about Dylan Mortenson, more so than Bethany because Bethany,

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Speaker 1: while there, did not see the perpetrator leaving. That's why

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Speaker 1: more focus has been on Dylan Mortenson. What do you

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Speaker 1: make of what Howard Bloom just said. I agree with him.

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Speaker 1: If she had uttered a sound, she would be dead

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Speaker 1: right now.

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Speaker 6: I agree. Here's here's my perspective. I think that there's

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Speaker 6: an element this where Coburger, if he did in fact

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Speaker 6: commit these crimes, was in such an exhausted state he

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Speaker 6: has tunnel vision at this point in time, He's trying

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Speaker 6: to clear himself of the scene. Think about all of

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Speaker 6: the energy that he has expended at this point in time,

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Speaker 6: starting on that top floor where there's just a slaughter

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Speaker 6: that has taken place allegedly at his own hands, and

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Speaker 6: then to be surprised by the other two residents on

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Speaker 6: this floor, with Zana and Ethan, he has to encounter

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Speaker 6: them and make his way past them. I don't know

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Speaker 6: that people, and I hope people never do understand the

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Speaker 6: amount of energy that would go in to try to

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Speaker 6: commit this kind of heinous crime, and so he's locked in.

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Speaker 6: I think that probably if she had in fact spoken,

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Speaker 6: she would have just become an obstacle to him that

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Speaker 6: he's trying to defeat to make his way to that

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Speaker 6: door so he can get out and get in that car.

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Speaker 2: And leave much the way.

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Speaker 1: According to Howard Bloom, Kelley Gonsolvis became let me just

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Speaker 1: see an impediment because of the ferocity of the attack

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Speaker 1: on Kelly Gonsolvis, and her father said that he believed

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Speaker 1: Kelly was the target. Now Bloom is saying Maddie was

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Speaker 1: the target and Kelly was in the way, So that

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Speaker 1: supports what you're saying. But I want to follow up

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Speaker 1: with doctor Angela Arnold. I want you to hear this,

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Speaker 1: Howard Bloom and Brian Stewart, you often have to go

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Speaker 1: to state of mind as a trial lawyer. Doctor Angela

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Speaker 1: Arnold is with US renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction.

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Speaker 1: You can find her at angela Arnold MD dot com.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Angie, let's analyze what we've just heard, how or

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Speaker 1: could I use that at trial to explained to this

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Speaker 1: jury why Dylan Mortenson did nothing. Now I have defended

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Speaker 1: Dylan Mortenson from the get go. Dylan Mortenson is a

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Speaker 1: crime victim. Let's not forget that before everybody heaps on

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Speaker 1: what she did wrong.

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Speaker 2: Okay, she did nothing wrong.

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Speaker 1: She had been out, like many, many thousands of vandals,

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Speaker 1: that's the college mascot, drinking and having a good time.

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Speaker 1: There was a football game that weekend. She comes home,

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Speaker 1: it's really late, at nine, around four am.

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Speaker 2: She's been partying.

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Speaker 1: She hears a noise, she hears the dog, she hears

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Speaker 1: her roommates saying something, and she gets up in that

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Speaker 1: state of mind, How does she know who he was?

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Speaker 1: That he was a killer. How does she know he

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Speaker 1: wasn't just someone visiting and leaving. People were ordering food,

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Speaker 1: people were going to sleep. They've been partying all night long.

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Speaker 1: It's four in the morning.

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Speaker 2: Is that why she.

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Speaker 1: Didn't call nine one one? Now the crux the rub

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Speaker 1: is going to be what's in the cell phone communications

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Speaker 1: between Bethany and Dylan. But can you think of, as

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Speaker 1: a psychiatrist, a rational explanation as to why Dylan did

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Speaker 1: not call nine one one.

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Speaker 7: Yes, I can, Nancy, because these are let's just remember,

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Speaker 7: these are kids that are in college. They're partying. It's

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Speaker 7: close to the end of the semester. Would anyone in

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Speaker 7: their right mind think, oh my god, there's a killer

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Speaker 7: in the house and my friends have been killed. I

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Speaker 7: am sure that didn't even enter their minds. There was noise.

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Speaker 7: Apparently there was always a lot of coming and going

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Speaker 7: from this house because they're just kids in college having

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Speaker 7: a good time, right, that was the culture there. So

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Speaker 7: she did nothing wrong. I have a feeling that with

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Speaker 7: all of the communication back and forth and everything, she

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Speaker 7: had no idea who he was. He wasn't She didn't

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Speaker 7: recognize him. He was just somebody walking through the house.

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Speaker 7: And she was probably a little bit scared because of

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Speaker 7: the noise that she had heard.

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Speaker 2: She was a little bit of shocked. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about her being scared, because if she

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Speaker 1: was scared, she would have called nine one one.

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Speaker 2: I think she was a little bit drunk.

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Speaker 7: And maybe she was, Nancy, And so if she was,

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Speaker 7: it's not like she was out driving and drinking. She

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Speaker 7: was in her home, Hey hey, hey, and drink slow down, sleeping.

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Speaker 1: It off, Slow down, Nellie, you're preaching to the choir

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Speaker 1: right now.

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Speaker 2: I'm on Dylan's side on this crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Back to Howard Bloom.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I can explain away why she didn't call nine

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Speaker 1: one one, But what do we know about her communications

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Speaker 1: with Bethany during that time the other roommate. Does it

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Speaker 1: prove she did know an attack was occurring, or does

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Speaker 1: it prove the contrary You.

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Speaker 5: Are raising One of the great mysteries of this case.

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Speaker 5: All I have been able to find out is that

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Speaker 5: testimony about those texts were given to the grand jury.

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Speaker 5: The grand jury heard about it, the grand jury reviewed

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Speaker 5: some of those texts.

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Speaker 4: What they said. I'd be.

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Speaker 5: Dishonest if I said I knew. My feeling is, though,

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Speaker 5: that Dylan and Bethany are both victims. Their lives are

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Speaker 5: changed forever by these events, and you know, we keep

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Speaker 5: on looking for a rational explanation for Dylan's behavior.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't irrational night.

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Speaker 1: I think I know something, I think I can do something,

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Speaker 1: Howard Bloom, and I may be very be proving very

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Speaker 1: wrong come trial time. But let me go to a

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Speaker 1: trial strategist on this.

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Speaker 2: Brian C.

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Speaker 1: Stewart veteran trial lawyer who is joining us from this

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Speaker 1: jurisdiction in Idaho.

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Speaker 2: He practices there in Utah.

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Speaker 1: Brian, you've tried a lot of cases, and if you

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Speaker 1: want to win a case, you marshal your evidence. You

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Speaker 1: have a plan what you're going I recall when I

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Speaker 1: would write out yes, I would write out every question

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Speaker 1: verbatim for every witness. Of course, you know you have

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Speaker 1: a plan when you go into a fight, but when

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Speaker 1: you get a punch in the nose, the plan goes

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Speaker 1: to hey, right, so you have a plan. Let's think

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Speaker 1: about these communications, the communications between Dylan and Bethany.

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Speaker 2: We know they were communicating by phone.

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Speaker 1: Thanks to Howard Bloom, we now know those were not

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Speaker 1: phone calls, they were texts. Those texts were given to

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Speaker 1: the grand jury who indicted Coburger.

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Speaker 2: Think this through.

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Speaker 1: I have a strong suspicion, a deduction that those texts

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Speaker 1: were about.

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Speaker 2: What is the noise? Did you hear the dog?

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Speaker 1: What's going on? Are they still awake? Blah blah blah,

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Speaker 1: Because Brian C. Stewart, if those texts were about, oh

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Speaker 1: my star, somebody's in the house. Did you hear a scream?

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Speaker 1: I thought I heard a fight and text to that genre.

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Speaker 1: I believe those texts would have been used as establishing

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Speaker 1: a timeline. We would have heard about the nature of

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Speaker 1: those texts if they were probative.

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Speaker 2: In other words, if they proved anything.

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Speaker 4: I think that's right.

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Speaker 8: We would have heard more about them. They would have

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Speaker 8: given us more information about what the girls experienced during

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Speaker 8: that period. But to me, the fact that they were

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Speaker 8: locked inside their rooms and sending texts rather than talking

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Speaker 8: or going to find each other tells me that they

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Speaker 8: were still in fear and didn't believe they Wait.

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Speaker 1: A minute, Brian, I don't know if you know that.

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Speaker 1: My ninety two year old mother lives with us, and

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Speaker 1: my husband just gave me the greatest gift ever. I

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Speaker 1: don't like jewelry, fancy cars, or clothes. Don't even say fur.

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Speaker 1: He gave me I Granny cam.

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Speaker 4: I love it.

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Speaker 2: I can see what Granny is doing at night. Has

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Speaker 2: she fallen on the floor? Is she wandering around aimlessly?

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Speaker 1: Do I need to go get out of bed at

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Speaker 1: three am and go check on her like I did

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Speaker 1: the first eight years she lived with us. How easy

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Speaker 1: is it to text? Why do you want to get

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Speaker 1: up when you're wearing nothing? But a T shirt. Go

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Speaker 1: out in the hall, knock on your roommate's.

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Speaker 2: Door and go, hey, wake up.

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Speaker 1: I've got a question. What's going on up there? Technical term?

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you've got it in Idaho and Utah. Bs.

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Speaker 1: Of course they're texting. I text back and.

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Speaker 2: Forth with the twins. We're in there there in the.

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Speaker 1: Back of the house, right, that's not I don't find

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Speaker 1: that disturbing at all at all, Brian, I don't either.

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Speaker 8: But if they had heard some struggle, if they had

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Speaker 8: heard any screaming, it would make entire sense to me

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Speaker 8: that they would lay low and be paralyzed by fear

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Speaker 8: during those hours.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Chris mcdonnah joining me, Director Cold Case Foundation, former

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Speaker 1: homicide detective, star of the Interview Room on YouTube where

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Speaker 1: I found him, Chris mcdona, haven't we both agreed that

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Speaker 1: these two roommates, Dylan and Bethany, they were the lowman

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Speaker 1: on the totem.

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Speaker 2: Pole in that they got the bottom of bedrooms and.

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Speaker 1: The house looks very different from the front than it

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Speaker 1: does on the side than it does from the back.

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Speaker 1: In the front of the house, Chris McDonough as Howard

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Speaker 1: bloom So vividly lays out in his book, whoever has

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Speaker 1: to live down there, you can't keep the light out,

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Speaker 1: even if you use darkened curtains. Every time a car

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Speaker 1: pulls up in that driveway, that parking area, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of people do because.

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Speaker 2: It's a very steep and narrow road.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the only places to turn around and

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Speaker 1: go back down the descent of the hill. This house

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Speaker 1: is near the top of a hill and people are

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Speaker 1: turning around and pulling in. It's a party house. Every

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Speaker 1: house around is a party house. Constant traffic. So the

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Speaker 1: lowman on the tone pole gets these two bedrooms, and

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Speaker 1: that would be Dylan and Bethany air Ago. Therefore, Chris mcdonnaugh,

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Speaker 1: they keep their doors locked and their curtains pulled almost.

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Speaker 2: All the time.

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Speaker 1: That is an entry point to get to the other floors.

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Speaker 1: So people visiting the second third floor residents often come

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Speaker 1: through that door. So they keep their doors locked, Chris

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Speaker 1: mcdona and their curtains closed. And that's why, and Bloom

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Speaker 1: lays it out in his book, that's why the doors

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Speaker 1: were locked.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, absolutely, you're correct, Nancy. I would agree with you

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Speaker 9: that you know the point of entry. Would you know,

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Speaker 9: for an individual like this who has taken so much

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Speaker 9: time to you know, plan this out, potentially to come

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Speaker 9: through that front door, you know, just doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 9: The back point of entry would make much more sense,

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Speaker 9: which also brings us to you know, the communication thought processing.

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Speaker 9: If I can comment on that for a moment. You know, today,

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Speaker 9: you know, these this generation just communicates via text. Remember,

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Speaker 9: up until four o'clock four am, they're still getting people

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Speaker 9: knocking on that door, i e. The food delivery, et cetera.

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Speaker 9: So it wouldn't surprise me one iota if at some

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Speaker 9: point when these texts are revealed that they're communicating with

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Speaker 9: each other, they're trying to communicate with their roommates, and

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Speaker 9: quite frankly, when it goes quiet and coburger comes down

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Speaker 9: those stairs, they may have even been thinking the party's over,

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Speaker 9: this is the last guy out, and they may have

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Speaker 9: even gone back to bed, and so that end of itself,

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Speaker 9: the fear factor could play into this, or quite frankly,

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Speaker 9: like you mentioned earlier, maybe there's an alcohol on board

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Speaker 9: and they're just exhausted. They're just they're just college students.

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Speaker 9: They're going back to sleep, and that would account.

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Speaker 1: For the delay and much has been made to the

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Speaker 1: fact that Coburger was wearing a mask. Why would she

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Speaker 1: have not been suspicious of that? Do I have to

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Speaker 1: say COVID?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 9: Absolutely, and that and that does you know play play

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Speaker 9: into this?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 1: Early on we heard Killi Gorinsavis's parents speaking out stating

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Speaker 1: she was the target. And I understand that because her

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Speaker 1: wounds were so much.

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Speaker 2: More heinous than Maddie's.

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Speaker 1: But according to this new Bombshield theory, Maddie was in

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Speaker 1: fact the target. Also, we are learning from Horod Bloom's

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Speaker 1: new book, When the Night Comes Falling, that there is

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Speaker 1: blood evidence that Ethan Chapin jumped up and confronted Brian

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Speaker 1: Coburger to protect his sweetheart Xenna. Kernodle to Howard Bloom,

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Speaker 1: I know that you have researched this so much that

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Speaker 1: it may have become you know, sop to you, but

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Speaker 1: to us, the revelations that you make in your book

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Speaker 1: are let me just say, illuminating. Tell me the facts

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Speaker 1: that support your theory that Ethan was stabbed as he

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Speaker 1: was trying to protect Xenna, and that after he attacked Ethan,

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Speaker 1: he goes and says, don't worry, I'm here to help

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Speaker 1: you to Xena and then kills her.

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Speaker 2: What facts support your theory.

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Speaker 5: Ethan coming up to confront Coburger is with testimony that

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Speaker 5: was made to the grand jury. There's also evidence in

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Speaker 5: the coroner's report that was shared at the grand jury

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Speaker 5: that he was killed with a one massive cut to

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Speaker 5: his neck that caught his jugular vein. Has to Xana

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Speaker 5: speaking out, UH, first saying there's someone here, and then

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Speaker 5: the assailants saying, I don't worry. I've come to help you.

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Speaker 5: That's in the police documents. I think that's arguably one

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Speaker 5: of the most chilling parts of this entire night, the

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Speaker 5: suspect approaching Xana and saying, don't worry, I've come to

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Speaker 5: help you. I think that shows his maliciousness, his total

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Speaker 5: commitment UH to the crime and to taking this victim

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Speaker 5: and to making sure that anyone who encounters him is

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Speaker 5: not going to live.

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Speaker 1: You go into each of the victim's backgrounds painstakingly, and

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Speaker 1: Xanna just an upsetting background as a child, Both of

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Speaker 1: her parents have been in and out of jail. And

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Speaker 1: what does she do? She survives, She works harder and

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Speaker 1: harder and harder. She's taken in by her aunt and

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Speaker 1: she is victorious against all odds. And I am just imagining, imagining.

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 1: Her lying there in bed with her sweetheart Ethan. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I think you were with us at some

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Speaker 1: point at crime Con before last, Joe Scott, when I

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Speaker 1: finally got to meet Ethan's mom, who is just amazing.

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Speaker 2: No, you were not with us.

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Speaker 1: But then later when you were speaking, she stood up

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Speaker 1: and started talking and during your address, and.

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Speaker 2: What a woman, the strength that mom had.

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Speaker 1: She just just remembering her and what she said to

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Speaker 1: me at Crime Con still strikes me to this day.

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Speaker 1: To you, Jo Scott, regarding the evidence, the blood spattered,

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Speaker 1: the blood trail, the blood transfers, and what Howard Bloom

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Speaker 1: is saying, I want to merge those because if I

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Speaker 1: were telling this to a jury, I would have to

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Speaker 1: I would have to describe what Howard Bloom says about

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Speaker 1: how Coburger comes into the room and he is confronted

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Speaker 1: by Ethan to protect his sweetheart Xanna. Ethan is murdered

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Speaker 1: by a slicing stab to the juggler, and then the killer,

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Speaker 1: as Ethan crumples to the ground, moves forward to his

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Speaker 1: next target, Xena Kernodle, and she's afraid, and he says,

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Speaker 1: don't worry.

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Speaker 2: I'm here to help you explain how I can prove

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Speaker 2: this at trial.

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Speaker 6: I think that when you think about progression, we talk

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Speaker 6: about in forensics a commingling of evidence. And from the

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Speaker 6: start with this case, and you're you know, you're trying

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Speaker 6: to tie tie in the timeline, you're going to have

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Speaker 6: commingled blood evidence that you're going to find at the scene.

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Speaker 6: And what I mean by that, Nancy, is that the

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Speaker 6: two victims upstairs, if they were in fact the first

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Speaker 6: he Coburger, allegedly, would have had blood evidence on him,

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Speaker 6: and not just on him, but also this weapon. As

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Speaker 6: he's advancing into the Xana's room, he's already taken Ethan's

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Speaker 6: life with the slice to the throat. He's going to

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Speaker 6: advance on her. We know that there's very specific contact

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Speaker 6: between the perpetrator and Xana. She fought back as well, Nancy.

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Speaker 6: We have indication that at least through one report, that

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Speaker 6: she had a defensive wound on her hand that actually

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Speaker 6: went down to the level of the tendons. That means

376
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 6: that more than likely, more than likely, she probably grabbed

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Speaker 6: hold of this blade as and then it's withdrawn and

378
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 6: it slices through the palm of her hand. And we

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Speaker 6: have to think about this scientifically. It's hard to dismiss

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00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 6: the emotion, but you have to think about it as

381
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Speaker 6: far as the progression if you want to try to

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00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 6: zero in on this and get an idea as to

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Speaker 6: the order of these events. I think probably the biggest

384
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Speaker 6: thing that this jury is going to see in this

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Speaker 6: case when they see these crime scene images Nancy, is

386
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Speaker 6: that both of these locations, both of these rooms are

387
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Speaker 6: going to be bathed in a lot of blood evidence.

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Speaker 6: The big question is, how did he clear that house

389
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Speaker 6: without transferring a bunch of blood evidence to either other

390
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 6: locations in that house or certainly within the confines of

391
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Speaker 6: that car. How did he escape that without having blood

392
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Speaker 6: all over the place at his apartment for instance, That

393
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Speaker 6: remains to be seen.

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Speaker 2: You know, Bryan C.

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00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: Stewart joining US veteran trial lawyer, managing partner at Parker

396
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 1: and Maconcole. He practices in this jurisdiction Idaho and Utah.

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Speaker 1: You know, the defense is really going to have a

398
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Speaker 1: heck of a time because the predatory nature of what

399
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 1: was said to Xanna.

400
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 2: Think about it.

401
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 1: Think about it, I would lay it out for a

402
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: jury just as I believe it happened. Coburger walks into

403
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: that dark room, Ethan jumps up from the bed. He

404
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: approaches Coburger to protect his sweetheart, xanaker Noodle, who's still

405
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 1: lying in the bed. He's immediately sliced across a jugular

406
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Speaker 1: and falls to his death.

407
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 2: Right here.

408
00:25:54,960 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: He then advances on Xanna, whose line in bed, and

409
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 1: he says the deceiving words, don't worry, I'm here to

410
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Speaker 1: help you, before he murders her. He is well within

411
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: his wits, he is prepossessed of mind, and he has

412
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Speaker 1: a wherewithal to lie and deceive Xanna. The predatory nature

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Speaker 1: of his advancing silently towards Xanna Kernodle is bone chilling.

414
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 8: I think the evidence clearly shows that he was clear

415
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 8: minded and intentional about everything that he did that night.

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00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 8: And you know, while we have to prove mensrea or

417
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,959
Speaker 8: a mental component in order to get a conviction that

418
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 8: doesn't necessarily include the motive.

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00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 6: Or motivation for why he did the crimes.

420
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 8: The mensraa would would mean that they have to prove

421
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 8: that he intended the actions that he did, which he

422
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,959
Speaker 8: clearly did, and then that he intended to take those lives.

423
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 8: And it's impossible from the evidence that's available to say

424
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 8: that he didn't intend to stab them, that he didn't

425
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 8: intend to take their lives, and it and it should

426
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:28,199
Speaker 8: be chilling, bone chilling, and to understand the ruthlessness of

427
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 8: his of his actions.

428
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 6: How you know it?

429
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 4: How y'all do it today?

430
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 7: Good? Good?

431
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 4: Take look your driver's lines and real quick if I could.

432
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 5: So, he's right up on that man.

433
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 9: Man, you right up on the back end of that man,

434
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 9: old job for tailgating? Is this your car?

435
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 4: Okay? Cool?

436
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 9: Where are you headed?

437
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 4: Well? Were coming from w R s U.

438
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 1: Where are you headed? He later says, we're going for

439
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,479
Speaker 1: thie food? And the dad's like what you were seeing?

440
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: Bodycam video when a Hancock County, Indiana Sheriffes Department bodycam

441
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: when they pull them over and ask to see.

442
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: Coburger's driver's license.

443
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 1: Now, it was arguing back and forth, and I claimed

444
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: vehemently that this was no coincidence because there were two

445
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: pullovers by local l E law enforcement in one trip home.

446
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: When does that happen? How often do you get pulled over?

447
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: I rarely get pulled over. So you get pulled over

448
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: twice and you never even get a ticket. Oh no,

449
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: that's stunt to high heaven with me right now. Howard Bloom,

450
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: author of a brand new book, When the Night Comes

451
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: Falling a requiem for the Ito student murders, which is amazing,

452
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: and in his book he outlined how these two pullovers

453
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: nearly costs the FBI their investigation, or so they thought.

454
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 2: Take a listen to more of the pullover.

455
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 4: What's w s U? Yeah, what's very oppos that is

456
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 4: wat's Maria?

457
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 6: Sure?

458
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 4: Okay, I have a hard time period because of the traffic.

459
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 5: So you're coming from Washington State University and you're going

460
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 5: where oh wouldn't be going.

461
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 4: Back to day Okay, yeah, we're a little lightly much.

462
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: How to Howard Bloom, I'm gonna circle back to the

463
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: fact that unasked, he starts talking about SWAT teams swarming

464
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: the area.

465
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: Methink thou dost protest too much?

466
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: In the immortal words of William Shakespeare, nobody asked, nobody asked.

467
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: Yet he's dead.

468
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: He's just regurgitating, vomiting the information.

469
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 2: When nobody asked.

470
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: But I want to circle back to the so called

471
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: hat Box operation that you described so well in your

472
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: book When the Night Comes Falling? Explain and why did

473
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: the FBI, who absolutely was following Coburger as he and

474
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: his dad across the country.

475
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: Thought that their entire operation may go up in flames.

476
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 5: Well, as you point out, the FBI decided that Coburger

477
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 5: was a person of interest. They decided this earlier, before

478
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 5: they even told the Moscow Task Force. They kept this

479
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 5: to themselves for either one of two reasons. The first

480
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 5: reason was that it was the identification was based on

481
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 5: the genealogy genetics investigative genetic genealogy, and.

482
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 4: They thought that wouldn't hold up in court.

483
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 5: Or a much more cynical explanation would be that the

484
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 5: FBI I didn't want to share the credit for Coburg's

485
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 5: arrest with anyone else.

486
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 4: So they go off and follow him.

487
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 5: And they have cars, they have a plane in the

488
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 5: air that's following his route. And suddenly they see Coburger

489
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 5: being stopped and they don't know what's going on, and

490
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 5: they don't know what to do. Had a they think

491
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 5: a local cop, a local sheriff had seen the be

492
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 5: on the lookout for notice and swooped in on this Hondai,

493
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 5: a Lantra, or they're also wondering how is Coburger going

494
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 5: to react he is a suspect in a quadruple homicide.

495
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 5: Is he going to get on the put his foot

496
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 5: on the accelerator and tear out, or perhaps he's going

497
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 5: to shoot anything as possible of the officer who's coming

498
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 5: in to give him this traffic ticket. The FBI decides

499
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 5: to stand back and see what happens. To their great relief,

500
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 5: Coburger is allowed to go through, and they figure, well, this.

501
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 4: Is just a traffic stop of some kind. Been nine

502
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 4: minutes later.

503
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: It's almost laughable, Howard, because that the FBI actually has

504
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: a bird in the air watching. They see one pullover

505
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: by the Hancock Kenny Sheriffs, and Coburger goes on his way.

506
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: And then there's another pullover.

507
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: Don't you know they're like, what is happening down there?

508
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: Why are they pulling over our quadruple murders suspect. I'm

509
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: sure they were just and they couldn't say anything. And

510
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: they're watching from a bird, right.

511
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 4: Yes, they have assess and they're flying overhead.

512
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,959
Speaker 5: You know, it's a hawk waiting to swoop down in

513
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 5: case anything happens in effect, and they've been building this

514
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 5: case for six weeks and they're finally getting closer, and

515
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 5: they think the whole case is going to be blown

516
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 5: apart before they've connected all the dots, and they are

517
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 5: filled with a sense of panic.

518
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 4: But discipline, how.

519
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: They were right and this is no offense to Indiana

520
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: at all.

521
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 2: But I understand where.

522
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,239
Speaker 1: The FBI is coming from, and you know how much

523
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: I hate the FEDS. But that said Chris mcdunn ad

524
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: joining me, Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective and

525
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: star of The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, if they

526
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: had stopped Coburger and he nutted up and they arrested

527
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: him or sped off, anything could have happened. Because we

528
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: can't We can't predict what Coburger is going to do.

529
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: Just like his father, he had no idea what his

530
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: son might do. We would never have gotten the evidence

531
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: that we got. When they finally got home to the

532
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: Pocono area, remember they were surveilled. They went in finally

533
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: or in the early morning hours. They catch him, I think,

534
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: in his shorts or underwear, wearing plastic gloves and separating

535
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: his trash from everybody else's trash and they see him

536
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: go throwing trash in the neighbor's receptacle.

537
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: None of them.

538
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: That would have happened if local authorities had to arrested

539
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: Coburger for a traffic violation, or if Coburger spun out

540
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: and brought about his own arrest. So I understand why

541
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: they were worried.

542
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, and absolutely, and not only that. If you remember,

543
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 9: this officer is leaning in, so if he would have

544
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 9: seen anything in plane view, you know what Doc Morgan

545
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 9: was talking about, you know, any blood transfer or anything

546
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 9: like that, Well, the clock starts ticking right then and there.

547
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 9: If this officer starts diving into this traffic stop, that

548
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 9: you may have this fugitive Task Force surveillance team you know,

549
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 9: overhead and behind him going hey, what the heck is

550
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 9: going on here? So, and quite frankly, I hate to

551
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 9: say it, but I've seen this as well as many others,

552
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 9: numerous at times where you know, this thing could have

553
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 9: gone south really fast. But fortunately they cut him loose

554
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 9: and they were able to connect those dots.

555
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 4: Later on h M.

556
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 2: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

557
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 4: And what did you say about some swat team thing? Yes,

558
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 4: there was, Yeah, there was a NASS shooting you know where,

559
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 4: that was good. Interesting, it's horrifying.

560
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: These I want to tell you'll talk about volunteering. That's

561
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: Coburger talking about the swat team as it related to

562
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: a different homicide.

563
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 2: But as you can see, he's.

564
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: Going on and on and on about murders and swat

565
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: teams that he wasn't asked about.

566
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: And let's listen to more. Listen to the body cam.

567
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 4: So sure y'all work at the university here?

568
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 7: Actually the.

569
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 2: Huge okay, okay.

570
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 9: Yeah, I hadn't heard about that incident just yesterday or.

571
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 7: About an hour, and yet all was still wrapping up.

572
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 4: I want not show this tutions if they could shoot

573
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 4: somebody as they and then you don't know about that actuating.

574
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 2: It's really hard to hear it.

575
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: Remember that bodycam that Ellie is wearing on their shoulder,

576
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: and you hear the deputy saying interesting, interesting, and you

577
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 1: hear Coburger's father, Michael say, well, it's horrifying. So Coburger

578
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: knew very well how his father would view a murder,

579
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: much less a quadruple murder.

580
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: So whild the FBI and their bird in the air of.

581
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: The helicopter at SASNA is watching two times police pull

582
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: over Coburger in route home. Howard Bloom in his book

583
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 1: When the Night Comes Falling, describes a quote hat box operation.

584
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: Only if you're in law enforcement, would you know what

585
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 1: that means? What does that mean? And what is it?

586
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: How does it relate to Coburger?

587
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 5: The hat box operation goes back to the days of

588
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 5: the g men, when the FBI used to wear fedoras

589
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 5: and they would trail people on the street. They'd have

590
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 5: the fedoras over their brill cream hat. Well, their surveillance

591
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 5: techniques have changed. They now have cars, unmarked cars, planes,

592
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 5: and even electronic devices. But the term stays. It means

593
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 5: you're going to follow this guy. It's a complete operation.

594
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 5: You're not going to lose sight of him. The irony

595
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 5: is the FBI loses Coburger for a while. They don't

596
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 5: pick him up till a couple of hours later because

597
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 5: he's taken a different route than the one they expected,

598
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 5: and they pick him up through a license plate reader

599
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 5: in Loma, Colorado, and then they stay on him.

600
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: And it really befuddles me.

601
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 1: Why in the last minute, after all of his father's

602
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: research about the best route home, it was a long drive.

603
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 1: He Coburger comes up with a very roundabout circuitous route home.

604
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: It takes hours longer than necessary, and his father is

605
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: so walking on eggshields around his son Coburger. Then he goes, Okay,

606
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 1: you're the boss, Fine, we'll go your way, even though

607
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: it made no sense and that was not the route

608
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: the FBI was expecting and they lose.

609
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 2: Coburger reminds me of the securitiest route.

610
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: I believe he took the night after the murders to

611
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: get back home. Oh my stars, we've got all the

612
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: digital evidence to get to the turning the phone off,

613
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 1: the turning the phone on, the cell phone towers. And

614
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: it's really interesting speaking of that, Howard, into your book,

615
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: you talk about out a pitch that Coburger makes to

616
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: the local PD trying to get a job an internship,

617
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: and you quote what he says in his pitch, and

618
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: I found it really interesting how he would help rural

619
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: police departments better analyze sell and digital data to incorporate

620
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: it into cases and prosecutions, which tells me, of course,

621
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: he didn't get the job, by the way, but it

622
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: tells me how intricately familiar he is with digital evidence

623
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: and supports the theory that he intentionally turned off his

624
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 1: phone when he left the King Road address and when

625
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: he went into the King Road address.

626
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 2: Yes, no, very much so.

627
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 5: Also that short note he writes reflects his arrogance, his

628
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 5: sort of condescending attitude. Is he the criminology doctoral candidate,

629
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 5: he knows more than the local police. The irony is

630
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 5: that within months that would be used against him, the

631
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 5: evidence that they had compiled from cell phones and cell

632
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 5: phone towered data.

633
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: Howard you reveal a receipt that was found regarding a

634
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: purchase of a uniform at Walmart.

635
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: How does that play into this investigation?

636
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 5: Well, Coberger has a blue Dicky's work uniform, a work

637
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 5: out that a one piece sort of body suit that

638
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 5: he bought, and police are now theorizing that he wore

639
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 5: that suit on the night of the killings. That's how

640
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 5: he was able to escape without any bloodstains on his

641
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 5: car whatever. Before he got into the car, he removed

642
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 5: the suit put it into a plastic bag garbage bag,

643
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 5: they theorize, and that it also explains that long route

644
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 5: home that that you've mentioned previously. He found a place

645
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 5: to dispose of this Dickie's worksuit that was covered in blood,

646
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 5: and also the murder weapon you refer.

647
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: To a Dicky's work suit. I believe it was purchased

648
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: at Walmart, and that would explain not only why his

649
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: clothes were not covered in blood, but the Dickie's work suit,

650
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: I think is a jumper that you put on over

651
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: your clothes if you wish, and that was never recovered.

652
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: But to the receipt. Did the receipt reveal when the

653
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: uniform was purchased.

654
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 5: It was purchased at the best I've been able to ascertain.

655
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 5: I'm sure they have the exact date. I was it

656
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 5: was purchased within a month of the murders. That's what

657
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 5: I was told. I don't have the exact date.

658
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 2: So not any time that he was working in systems.

659
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: Remember he had a job where he was kind of

660
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: like a repair guy way back when this suit, this

661
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 1: Dickie's work suit, was purchased just before the murders. And

662
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: another thing, you go into great detail about the complaints

663
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: filed against him at Washington State University by female students,

664
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: and it went on and on and on. It wasn't

665
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: an overnight thing. The faculty, the administration there went to

666
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 1: great pains to document what was stated and to give

667
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: him a chance to explain it. But you describe Howard

668
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 1: the whole way home, how Coburger was seething about what

669
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 1: had been said about him by these female students, and

670
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 1: more important, how he was going to beat the rap

671
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 1: and how they could not fire him.

672
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 2: He was going to fight back.

673
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: Little did he know they had already sent an email

674
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,439
Speaker 1: telling him it's over, or sent him a letter telling

675
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: him it was all over. But that seething that you

676
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: describing your book was riveting.

677
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 5: Yes, when he takes this trip across country with his father,

678
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 5: he's filled with rage. At the same time, I believe

679
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 5: he thought he was going to be able to return

680
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 5: to Washington State after the Christmas break and he would

681
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 5: start teaching again. He thought if there were charges up

682
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 5: against him, he could talk his way out of it.

683
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 4: That's what he kept on telling his father. I can

684
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 4: beat this. They can fire me without my having a hearing,

685
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 4: and I can act.

686
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 5: In my own as my own defense attorney, and I

687
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 5: can convince them that I should not be fired.

688
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 4: He needed this job. This job, this teaching.

689
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 5: Assistant, paid for his twenty nine thousand dollars a year

690
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 5: or so tuition and board.

691
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 1: You know, I looked at your sources at the end

692
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: of your book, and I don't see the sources for

693
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: what was said in that car, his seething anger about

694
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: these women. How dare they complain about him? Are you

695
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: keeping many of your sources secret?

696
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 5: Well, I've made arrangements with the people I spoke to

697
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 5: that I cannot reveal their names. What I did do

698
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 5: is pretty much why I started into This is what

699
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 5: the FBI did. They built a family tree, genetic clusters,

700
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 5: and so they worked their way to Brian Coburger. I

701
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 5: did the reverse. I went after the relatives of people

702
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 5: who were related to the Coburger family. I kept on

703
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 5: knocking on doors, reaching out to them until I got

704
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 5: some of them who were in conversations with the Coburgers

705
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 5: to talk to me. And that was my primary sources. Also,

706
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 5: there were people in the town who had also spoken

707
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:46,240
Speaker 5: to them, in the whole Strausburg al Brightesville area of Pennsylvania.

708
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: In his book, Howard Bloom describes at the very beginning

709
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: the austere room where the murder case was worked at

710
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: police headquarters, and he said, as law enforcement divided their facts,

711
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 1: marshaled their evidence into two categories empirical and rhetorical.

712
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 2: Empirical the hard evidence. Rhetorical the why.

713
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: And that's what we are doing tonight again, Howard Bloom,

714
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: Thank you for your book and for joining us again

715
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,800
Speaker 1: to part two of the analysis. And we barely scratch

716
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: the surface the analysis of what you have learned about

717
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 1: the Coburger investigation. Thank you to our other expert witnesses,

718
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: but especially to you for joining us as we seek

719
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: justice in our own way. Nancy Gray signing off, good

720
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: night friend,