WEBVTT - Misty Copeland on Her Own Terms 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.796 Pushkin Getting Even is produced by Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to 0:00:25.836 --> 0:00:29.316 Pushkin Plus and you can hear Getting Even and other 0:00:29.356 --> 0:00:35.596 Pushkin shows. Add free and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign 0:00:35.756 --> 0:00:39.716 up on the Getting Even show page in Apple Podcasts 0:00:39.956 --> 0:00:47.076 or at Pushkin dot Fm. It's difficult to change the 0:00:47.116 --> 0:00:50.396 way people think ballet should be, and I felt like 0:00:50.556 --> 0:00:54.236 I had a purpose, which is to exist in these 0:00:54.276 --> 0:01:00.956 white spaces and succeed and change the narrative. That's ballet 0:01:01.036 --> 0:01:05.636 dancer Misty Copeland. She made history in twenty fifteen when 0:01:05.676 --> 0:01:09.076 she became the first black woman ever to be promoted 0:01:09.316 --> 0:01:13.316 to principal dancer at the American Ballet Theater. When she's 0:01:13.316 --> 0:01:18.276 off stage, Copeland is committed to making more communities feel 0:01:18.316 --> 0:01:23.036 like bay belong in the world of ballet. I feel 0:01:23.116 --> 0:01:26.156 like that's something that I've taken on as a responsibility. 0:01:27.076 --> 0:01:30.156 Copeland's interest in music and movement drew her to ballet 0:01:30.236 --> 0:01:34.196 at a young age. It was her creative outlet and escape, 0:01:34.956 --> 0:01:38.636 and as she progressed, ballet both nurtured and challenged her. 0:01:39.356 --> 0:01:42.276 I attribute my success, the person that I am, all 0:01:42.276 --> 0:01:46.036 of this to so many of the qualities within the 0:01:46.156 --> 0:01:49.556 ballet structure. That gave me the tools to be successful, 0:01:49.636 --> 0:01:52.156 not just as a ballet dancer, but as a person, 0:01:52.236 --> 0:02:01.356 as a woman, as a leader in my community. I'm 0:02:01.356 --> 0:02:06.996 Anita Hill. This is Getting Even, my podcast about equality 0:02:07.236 --> 0:02:10.956 and what it takes to get there. On Getting Even, 0:02:11.316 --> 0:02:15.276 I speak with people who are improving our imperfect world, 0:02:15.916 --> 0:02:21.196 people who took risks and broke the rules. In this episode, 0:02:21.276 --> 0:02:24.156 Missy Copeland and I discuss how she journeyed from the 0:02:24.196 --> 0:02:27.836 local boys and Girls club to the American Ballet Theater, 0:02:28.436 --> 0:02:33.356 maneuvering through racist politics along the way. We also discuss 0:02:33.436 --> 0:02:37.556 how she uses that very platform to empower black and 0:02:37.676 --> 0:02:44.756 brown girls. Today. You were the first person on my 0:02:44.876 --> 0:02:48.876 list to interview, and it's really a tribute to all 0:02:48.916 --> 0:02:52.836 of the wonderful things that you've done and that you 0:02:52.916 --> 0:02:56.996 continue to do in your professional life, as well as 0:02:57.036 --> 0:03:00.396 the way you present outside of the ballet world. Thank you. So, 0:03:00.436 --> 0:03:02.796 I want to just get started with your story. Am 0:03:02.796 --> 0:03:07.436 I correct that you started ballet at thirteen? Yes? You are, 0:03:09.196 --> 0:03:11.996 And I say it that way because it seems to 0:03:11.996 --> 0:03:14.316 me that most of the people who are in those 0:03:14.356 --> 0:03:19.916 beginning classes are like five years old. Yes, yes, that's true. 0:03:21.676 --> 0:03:25.036 So what was it like for you those first few 0:03:25.116 --> 0:03:28.196 years as somebody who was starting much later than some 0:03:28.276 --> 0:03:32.476 of the people who you were probably dancing with. You know, 0:03:32.956 --> 0:03:36.076 it was an opportunity that I feel like I was 0:03:36.156 --> 0:03:40.556 craving and waiting for. Didn't realize it, you know, coming 0:03:40.676 --> 0:03:43.916 from the communities that I grew up in, being in 0:03:43.916 --> 0:03:46.436 a single parent home and being one of six children. 0:03:46.876 --> 0:03:49.076 But I mean I was so introverted. I had a 0:03:49.076 --> 0:03:52.556 lot of shame that was kind of surrounding me in 0:03:52.636 --> 0:03:56.756 terms of not wanting people to know the circumstances that 0:03:56.836 --> 0:04:00.556 we were living in, and so I became this like 0:04:00.676 --> 0:04:03.556 shell of a person. I was not involved in any 0:04:04.516 --> 0:04:09.636 any extracurricular activities, anything artistic or physical in terms of sports, 0:04:10.116 --> 0:04:12.836 until I decided at like twelve and a half that 0:04:13.236 --> 0:04:15.316 out of nowhere that I was going to audition for 0:04:15.436 --> 0:04:18.116 the drill team, and not just auditioned to be on 0:04:18.156 --> 0:04:19.756 the team, but I was going to audition to be 0:04:19.836 --> 0:04:24.036 captain of the team. And you know, I think that 0:04:24.116 --> 0:04:28.756 it was this evolution of having music in my life, 0:04:28.756 --> 0:04:31.316 which was constantly around the house, and I was always 0:04:31.396 --> 0:04:34.556 drawn to lyrics and it was like, these are the 0:04:34.556 --> 0:04:37.036 words I wish I could speak, and things I'm feeling, 0:04:37.036 --> 0:04:40.076 but I'm not capable. I don't have the tools, and 0:04:40.316 --> 0:04:43.676 movement became this outlet with the chaos in my home, 0:04:43.716 --> 0:04:48.796 whether it was abuse, instability, all of that. So I 0:04:48.836 --> 0:04:51.796 auditioned for the drill team and I made captain. A 0:04:51.916 --> 0:04:54.276 family was shocked. They're like, to you understand that you're 0:04:54.356 --> 0:04:58.276 going to be on stage performing for people. And it 0:04:58.316 --> 0:05:00.636 was interesting because being on a stage was the one 0:05:00.756 --> 0:05:04.876 space that I felt protected. I felt like I could 0:05:04.876 --> 0:05:08.236 express myself and communicate to the audience, but I didn't 0:05:08.276 --> 0:05:10.516 have to see them. They weren't going to respond in 0:05:10.556 --> 0:05:12.956 a way that I had to address what they were 0:05:13.036 --> 0:05:16.716 thinking or their opinion. The teacher who was running the 0:05:16.796 --> 0:05:19.476 drill team saw potential in me, and she suggested I 0:05:19.556 --> 0:05:21.956 take a free ballet class that was being offered at 0:05:21.996 --> 0:05:24.556 my local boys and Girls club. So it was at 0:05:24.596 --> 0:05:28.356 thirteen years old that I really entered into ballet. I 0:05:28.396 --> 0:05:31.876 took my first ballet class on a basketball court at 0:05:31.876 --> 0:05:34.636 my club, and the teacher, who was teaching from the 0:05:34.676 --> 0:05:37.796 local ballet school, she immediately said, I think you're a 0:05:37.836 --> 0:05:39.916 prodigy and I want to take you into my school 0:05:39.996 --> 0:05:43.356 full scholarship. She eventually invited me to live with her, 0:05:43.876 --> 0:05:46.476 and from the moment that I stepped into her studio, 0:05:47.156 --> 0:05:50.396 the goal was for me to dance professionally, and American 0:05:50.436 --> 0:05:53.836 Ballet theater was always the goal. So it was a 0:05:53.876 --> 0:05:57.996 clear vision of what I was working towards. But I 0:05:58.076 --> 0:06:00.276 just fell in love with this thing that gave me 0:06:00.356 --> 0:06:04.196 a purpose, gave me a way to grow as a 0:06:04.276 --> 0:06:06.636 human being, and I just feel like it saved my life. 0:06:07.236 --> 0:06:11.196 You said so many things that caught my attention. You 0:06:11.276 --> 0:06:14.516 said there was a teacher, there was music that said 0:06:14.596 --> 0:06:17.796 what you wanted to say but couldn't didn't have the 0:06:17.876 --> 0:06:22.316 artistry to say it. And you said boys and Girls Club. 0:06:22.956 --> 0:06:26.436 So those seem to be the really important elements of 0:06:26.476 --> 0:06:30.716 your life that helped you in what you describe as 0:06:30.716 --> 0:06:36.516 an unstable situation. Absolutely, and all of those things are 0:06:36.596 --> 0:06:39.996 still so important in my life. So what music were 0:06:39.996 --> 0:06:45.316 you listening to. There's a lot of soul and R 0:06:45.396 --> 0:06:48.076 and B and hip hop being played around the house. 0:06:48.316 --> 0:06:50.876 It was an array of music, But like Anita Baker 0:06:50.996 --> 0:06:55.676 and Shade and Aretha Franklin, there's a lot of stuff. 0:06:56.276 --> 0:06:59.236 The one that I really connected with was when Mariah 0:06:59.276 --> 0:07:02.396 Carey's debut album came out, and you know, it was 0:07:02.436 --> 0:07:06.876 the first time that I saw a biracial woman of 0:07:07.156 --> 0:07:11.516 her caliber, her talent, her exposure, and I felt like 0:07:11.636 --> 0:07:14.516 I could see myself in her. It wasn't a conscious 0:07:14.596 --> 0:07:17.516 thing at the time, Like, it wasn't until I was 0:07:17.516 --> 0:07:22.116 an adult that I could really decipher what that draw was. 0:07:22.436 --> 0:07:25.516 That's the importance of representation. It allows for you to 0:07:25.596 --> 0:07:29.876 see possibilities and it allows you to dream. And you know, 0:07:29.956 --> 0:07:32.396 Mariah as a friend of mine now and it's just 0:07:32.516 --> 0:07:35.636 funny to be able to like share these things with her. 0:07:35.676 --> 0:07:38.516 And she's always like, I'm not taking credit for your 0:07:38.596 --> 0:07:42.436 ballet career. I'm like, but Maria, you literally were like 0:07:42.476 --> 0:07:47.716 the catalysts for everything, you know, for this, like belief 0:07:47.796 --> 0:07:49.916 in myself that I could do this thing that I 0:07:49.996 --> 0:07:53.116 knew nothing about, and seeing someone who looked like me 0:07:53.316 --> 0:07:56.556 succeeding and talented and gifted. Well, you know. But that's 0:07:56.556 --> 0:07:58.916 an amazing thing, is that that there are so many 0:07:58.916 --> 0:08:02.476 different influences in each of our lives, but that you 0:08:02.556 --> 0:08:07.716 could connect those influences with what you ultimately came to do. 0:08:08.196 --> 0:08:11.796 I also note that that you had an outlet for 0:08:12.236 --> 0:08:15.116 what was going on in your mind about what your 0:08:15.116 --> 0:08:20.636 capabilities were, and how important it is for people to 0:08:20.716 --> 0:08:24.636 have ballet or whatever it is that they set their 0:08:24.676 --> 0:08:30.236 mind to do, have an opportunity to find it. Yes, 0:08:30.276 --> 0:08:34.956 but I imagine that ballet was not available for everyone 0:08:34.996 --> 0:08:37.836 in your area. You're absolutely right, and that's why I'm 0:08:37.836 --> 0:08:43.196 so passionate about, first of all, identifying the beauty in 0:08:43.316 --> 0:08:46.356 classical dance and all the positives that there are in 0:08:46.476 --> 0:08:48.676 terms of like how it helped me as a young 0:08:48.756 --> 0:08:52.996 person to develop as a human being. That's why I'm 0:08:53.036 --> 0:08:57.396 such an advocate for creating opportunities for it to be 0:08:57.556 --> 0:09:01.276 accessible to more communities and then kind of changing the 0:09:01.396 --> 0:09:04.996 narrative and the outlook on how these communities see dance 0:09:05.356 --> 0:09:08.276 and that they do belong in those spaces. You know, 0:09:08.436 --> 0:09:11.356 I attribut my success the person that I am all 0:09:11.396 --> 0:09:15.036 of this too, So many of the qualities within the 0:09:15.476 --> 0:09:19.036 ballet structure that gave me the tools to be successful 0:09:19.116 --> 0:09:21.636 not just as a ballet dancer, but as a person, 0:09:21.716 --> 0:09:25.196 as a woman, as a leader in my community, and 0:09:25.356 --> 0:09:29.396 for me as Misty the Black Ballerina. It's kind of 0:09:29.396 --> 0:09:32.516 picking apart what are the things that need to change 0:09:32.516 --> 0:09:35.356 and evolve in ballet, but what are the amazing things 0:09:35.396 --> 0:09:39.556 about it that can help so many children right out 0:09:39.556 --> 0:09:45.476 of the box. Let's say you were thinking way ahead. 0:09:45.476 --> 0:09:47.716 I mean not that you were just going to learn ballet, 0:09:47.756 --> 0:09:52.516 but that you were going to have a career in ballet. Yeah. Yeah, 0:09:53.076 --> 0:09:55.956 I mean I think that says something about who you 0:09:55.996 --> 0:10:00.516 are too. You know, you had an ambition, you were ambitious. 0:10:00.836 --> 0:10:03.876 I don't think that consciously I was. I was like, 0:10:04.516 --> 0:10:06.876 I'm focused, I'm going to be a professional, But it 0:10:06.956 --> 0:10:09.716 was like, I love this and there's an no way 0:10:09.796 --> 0:10:12.516 I could live my life without having it. And then 0:10:12.556 --> 0:10:15.956 it evolved into learning about the history of ballet, learning 0:10:15.956 --> 0:10:18.596 about the history of American Ballet theater, how I could 0:10:18.596 --> 0:10:21.276 possibly fit into it. Then being brought to my first 0:10:21.316 --> 0:10:24.876 live performance seeing ABT when I was fifteen years old, 0:10:25.236 --> 0:10:28.276 and saying, I can see it clearly, this is exactly 0:10:28.276 --> 0:10:30.836 what I want to do. These are what my goals are. 0:10:31.356 --> 0:10:35.116 But again, it was having an incredible support system and 0:10:35.196 --> 0:10:39.436 structure around me that allowed me to see those things clearly. 0:10:40.476 --> 0:10:44.316 And you were making that kind of decision about where 0:10:44.356 --> 0:10:48.356 you would go with the American Ballet Theater against the 0:10:48.396 --> 0:10:52.276 backdrop of a society where black women's bodies have been 0:10:52.316 --> 0:10:58.716 scrutinized and misrepresented and dismissed and oversexualized and all kinds 0:10:58.716 --> 0:11:02.836 of ways misinterpreted. And you were breaking into at the time, 0:11:02.876 --> 0:11:08.836 but was a mostly white space. That's amazing in and 0:11:08.876 --> 0:11:13.196 of help, But I think what is truly amazing is 0:11:13.236 --> 0:11:18.556 that you've done it on your own terms. Yeah, it's 0:11:18.596 --> 0:11:23.636 been quite a journey, and there have been people around 0:11:23.636 --> 0:11:26.436 me that have seen it clearly, like my first ballet teacher, 0:11:26.476 --> 0:11:29.476 Cynthia Bradley, whom I lived with and who saw this 0:11:29.596 --> 0:11:31.756 vision from the beginning. I always thought she was this 0:11:31.836 --> 0:11:36.396 crazy lady that was super artistic, and I was like, yeah, Okay, 0:11:36.476 --> 0:11:38.476 I'm just gonna keep doing what I love. You can 0:11:38.516 --> 0:11:42.316 have your visions. But I was in almost this protective 0:11:42.356 --> 0:11:45.836 bubble where though I was the only black girl for 0:11:45.876 --> 0:11:48.436 the most part in the studios that I trained in 0:11:48.516 --> 0:11:52.836 as a young person, Cynthia was really good about not 0:11:53.036 --> 0:11:58.236 letting that enter my bubble. There was a lot going 0:11:58.276 --> 0:12:00.396 on that I didn't learn about until I was older. 0:12:00.676 --> 0:12:03.476 There were parents who were removing their children from the 0:12:03.476 --> 0:12:06.316 school because I was doing the lead as a person 0:12:06.356 --> 0:12:09.556 of color. I was taking parts away from the child 0:12:09.556 --> 0:12:11.636 when they were giving money as board members. You know, 0:12:11.636 --> 0:12:15.876 there's a lot of a lot of politics and racism 0:12:15.916 --> 0:12:20.236 happening that a lot of black and brown children experienced 0:12:20.356 --> 0:12:23.956 to their face at a young age in the ballet world, 0:12:24.076 --> 0:12:27.356 and I feel fortunate that I didn't experience that. It 0:12:27.396 --> 0:12:32.396 wasn't until I was a professional that I really understood 0:12:32.636 --> 0:12:34.676 how rare it was for me to be where I was. 0:12:34.916 --> 0:12:37.156 You know, I was the only black woman for the 0:12:37.196 --> 0:12:40.716 first decade of my career at ABT, and it was 0:12:40.756 --> 0:12:43.076 a lot. It was a lot of learning on the spot, 0:12:43.196 --> 0:12:46.436 learning on the job, but also being vulnerable and open 0:12:46.516 --> 0:12:50.076 to having mentors come into my life, and being fortunate 0:12:50.156 --> 0:12:52.596 enough that people were reaching out to me, black women 0:12:52.716 --> 0:12:55.356 reaching out to me outside of the ballet world that 0:12:55.516 --> 0:12:58.116 wanted to be a support system. And that's why I 0:12:58.196 --> 0:13:01.436 understand the importance of being a mentor for the next generation. 0:13:03.596 --> 0:13:07.276 After the break, Copeland and I discussed the scrutiny that 0:13:07.436 --> 0:13:14.076 black female bodies and how it's often amplified in the 0:13:14.156 --> 0:13:27.796 world of ballet. You're listening to getting even I'm Anita Hill. 0:13:28.316 --> 0:13:32.156 I'm speaking with Misty Copeland, the first black female principal 0:13:32.276 --> 0:13:36.676 dancer at the American Ballet Theater we talk about her 0:13:36.756 --> 0:13:41.076 book Black Ballerinas and her mission to celebrate dancers of 0:13:41.116 --> 0:13:44.836 color who have paved the way. We also get into 0:13:44.876 --> 0:13:50.516 how black bodies fit or don't fit the traditional ballet esthetic, 0:13:51.236 --> 0:13:55.436 and why Copeland's iconic roles are even more meaningful as 0:13:55.476 --> 0:13:59.556 a result. Were you ever told that you didn't have 0:13:59.636 --> 0:14:04.276 the right body for ballet? Yes? I still am to 0:14:04.316 --> 0:14:08.836 this day. Yes. What's so interesting is that from the 0:14:08.836 --> 0:14:11.756 time I started dance, why I was called a prodigy 0:14:11.916 --> 0:14:15.276 was that I was being told I had the perfect 0:14:15.356 --> 0:14:18.716 ballet body. I was given full scholarships, you know. I 0:14:18.796 --> 0:14:21.156 was told, like, you have the right body proportions. And 0:14:21.196 --> 0:14:23.716 then all of a sudden, I become a professional and 0:14:24.236 --> 0:14:27.356 it's like something switched and I no longer had the 0:14:27.436 --> 0:14:30.756 right body. And a lot of that was like deciphering 0:14:31.436 --> 0:14:34.876 what that language means. And the more I was exposed 0:14:34.916 --> 0:14:37.596 to other dancers of color, other black women in the 0:14:37.636 --> 0:14:40.436 ballet world, the more you realize, oh, that's just code 0:14:40.436 --> 0:14:42.876 for you don't have the right skin color, and you 0:14:42.956 --> 0:14:45.316 will not fit into a cord of ballet. You will 0:14:45.396 --> 0:14:52.076 bring imbalance to this white sea of dancers. It was 0:14:52.116 --> 0:14:54.836 a lot to take in and like in a ballet company. 0:14:55.236 --> 0:14:58.836 There's no mentorship program, there's no guidance. You know. I 0:14:58.836 --> 0:15:00.916 moved to New York City straight out of high school 0:15:00.956 --> 0:15:03.356 at seventeen on my own, and you're just kind of 0:15:03.396 --> 0:15:06.356 thrown into the sea, you know, you sink or swim. 0:15:06.356 --> 0:15:10.796 And it was important that I had incredible women that 0:15:10.836 --> 0:15:13.676 came into my life that kind of put that life 0:15:13.756 --> 0:15:17.076 vest on me and helped me to like figure it out. 0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:21.276 So do you think that a part of it, too, 0:15:21.556 --> 0:15:26.316 is not just not fitting into the particular static but 0:15:26.436 --> 0:15:32.876 also this historic stereotype that we have of black women dancers. 0:15:33.836 --> 0:15:38.116 I think about Josephine Baker, who was, you know, able 0:15:38.156 --> 0:15:40.876 to do what she was doing because she was considered 0:15:40.916 --> 0:15:47.156 to be exotic and that wasn't really what's happening in 0:15:47.396 --> 0:15:50.596 ballet was. I mean, the exotic was not what they 0:15:50.636 --> 0:15:54.276 were looking for. No. No, it's difficult to change the 0:15:54.316 --> 0:15:57.836 way people think ballet should be. And then it's just 0:15:58.036 --> 0:16:01.436 it keeps getting repeated, like this is what a ballerina 0:16:01.476 --> 0:16:03.996 should look like. She should be fair skinned and soft 0:16:04.076 --> 0:16:07.556 and feminine, and black women are not often depicted that 0:16:07.596 --> 0:16:10.356 way or given an opportunity to be seen that way, 0:16:11.036 --> 0:16:12.956 which is why it's so important, you know, for me 0:16:13.036 --> 0:16:16.276 to take on roles like Juliette and Romeo and Juliet 0:16:16.396 --> 0:16:18.796 or the white Swan and Swan Lake. These are all 0:16:18.876 --> 0:16:23.956 roles that have been kept from Black women for generations 0:16:23.956 --> 0:16:27.636 and generations because they're seen as the opposite of what 0:16:27.756 --> 0:16:30.916 black women are seen as. I think what happened with 0:16:30.956 --> 0:16:32.636 me is that I got to a point where a 0:16:32.716 --> 0:16:35.116 lot of black dancers get to where, first of all, 0:16:35.116 --> 0:16:41.316 the opportunities stop and you're not surrounded by people who 0:16:41.356 --> 0:16:43.916 have been through what you've been through. There's no real 0:16:43.956 --> 0:16:46.876 documentation of our history. It's not like we can open 0:16:46.956 --> 0:16:49.716 up a history book. Oh, this person went through this, 0:16:49.716 --> 0:16:51.116 this person went through this, and you kind of pick 0:16:51.156 --> 0:16:53.516 up from where they left off, learned from their experiences. 0:16:53.596 --> 0:16:56.516 We don't have that, and I feel like that's something 0:16:56.516 --> 0:16:59.476 that I've taken on as a responsibility. You know, I 0:16:59.516 --> 0:17:03.556 feel like I'm in this position to create our own 0:17:03.716 --> 0:17:06.836 narrative and write our history. And you know, that was 0:17:06.876 --> 0:17:09.956 really the reasoning for me writing Black Collars. My journey 0:17:09.956 --> 0:17:14.836 to our legacy was to be able to share this 0:17:14.956 --> 0:17:17.756 twenty year journey that I've had being a professional with 0:17:17.796 --> 0:17:20.916 American Ballet theater. And you know, this wasn't like I 0:17:20.956 --> 0:17:22.596 decided to write this book and then I went on 0:17:22.636 --> 0:17:25.436 Google six months prior and I started learning. This has 0:17:25.476 --> 0:17:29.276 been twenty years of learning on the job, learning from 0:17:29.276 --> 0:17:31.916 other black dancers that I'd meet and connect with, and 0:17:32.356 --> 0:17:35.156 what dancers came before me. You know, it allows you 0:17:35.196 --> 0:17:39.356 to see where I can go because of what they've 0:17:39.396 --> 0:17:41.916 done and the doors that have been opened for me. 0:17:42.036 --> 0:17:45.316 And there are just so many incredible dancers that people 0:17:45.356 --> 0:17:48.276 don't know their names or their contributions to this art form. 0:17:48.436 --> 0:17:50.996 What are the names of some of those women. I'm like, 0:17:51.076 --> 0:17:53.796 looking at my book right now, there's so many tie 0:17:53.876 --> 0:17:59.436 him and as Janet Collins, Deborrah Austin, Raven Wilkinson, Marion Sugette. 0:17:59.556 --> 0:18:02.516 You know, they're the dancers today that I felt it 0:18:02.556 --> 0:18:05.556 was important to include in the list because it's not 0:18:05.636 --> 0:18:08.036 just about our past. It's about the dancers that are 0:18:08.036 --> 0:18:09.596 doing it now, that are up in coming, that are 0:18:09.596 --> 0:18:15.156 going to continue on our legacies. Erica Loell, Nikisha Fogo, 0:18:15.916 --> 0:18:19.756 Ebony Williams. There's so many, and in my book, I 0:18:19.796 --> 0:18:22.636 have twenty seven that I featured, and that's not at 0:18:22.636 --> 0:18:26.596 all a comprehensive list. But you know, you're only given 0:18:26.676 --> 0:18:31.396 a certain number of pages on books, and so I 0:18:30.836 --> 0:18:36.156 know you know, but there's there's an incredible list of 0:18:36.196 --> 0:18:39.076 black and brown dancers to learn about there. Of course, 0:18:39.076 --> 0:18:41.076 when you give us that description of your book and 0:18:41.116 --> 0:18:44.716 your work and your thinking, I'm thinking about black girls. 0:18:45.156 --> 0:18:49.036 Did you write this book for them? Yes? You know, 0:18:49.276 --> 0:18:52.436 of course, everything that I do, I want it to 0:18:52.556 --> 0:18:57.236 be for everyone, even if it's if it's different communities 0:18:57.396 --> 0:19:00.396 learning about what it is to be a black woman, 0:19:00.516 --> 0:19:02.556 what it is to be a black dancer in this world. 0:19:02.596 --> 0:19:05.156 It's for everyone. But of course you know from my 0:19:05.276 --> 0:19:08.556 first book, my memoir, the through line throughout the entire 0:19:08.596 --> 0:19:11.356 book was this is for the little brown girls, you know, 0:19:11.436 --> 0:19:15.036 And so of course those are the people that are 0:19:15.276 --> 0:19:19.996 often excluded when it comes to opportunities, when it comes 0:19:19.996 --> 0:19:23.676 to being nurtured and told they're beautiful and told they're important. 0:19:24.316 --> 0:19:28.476 So they're definitely at the top of mind whenever I'm 0:19:28.516 --> 0:19:32.716 writing or thinking about the next generation. In a way, 0:19:32.836 --> 0:19:36.756 you are writing the history of ballet that hasn't been told. 0:19:37.756 --> 0:19:42.356 And I wonder if in that writing you have come 0:19:42.476 --> 0:19:46.516 up with your own idea about why there is this 0:19:46.756 --> 0:19:54.516 resistance to the presence of the black body. What's behind 0:19:54.596 --> 0:19:58.516 that in your opinion, Well, I think for starters, you know, 0:19:58.676 --> 0:20:02.156 this is a European art form, and that's kind of 0:20:02.196 --> 0:20:04.396 the base of it. So many of the stories and 0:20:04.436 --> 0:20:07.316 the ballets that we tell are not a reflection of 0:20:07.356 --> 0:20:10.356 our community as black people, and of so many communities, 0:20:10.476 --> 0:20:14.796 especially in America. There are the stories of European white 0:20:14.796 --> 0:20:19.276 men from the eighteen hundreds, four hundred years later. It's 0:20:19.316 --> 0:20:22.516 not really something that you can really grasp because it's 0:20:22.596 --> 0:20:25.676 been exposed to so many different cultures over the course 0:20:25.716 --> 0:20:29.516 of the time. So, yes, those are the origins, but 0:20:29.796 --> 0:20:34.316 that's no longer the limitations of who sees it, who's 0:20:34.356 --> 0:20:38.236 influenced by it, who's inspired by it. It's now a 0:20:38.396 --> 0:20:42.636 part of the fabric of America when you talk about 0:20:43.116 --> 0:20:49.356 how female dancers are portrayed through the eyes of white men, 0:20:49.756 --> 0:20:52.636 white European man, and that's where the sexism comes in, 0:20:52.756 --> 0:20:56.076 isn't it. Yeah. I was reading an article like a 0:20:56.116 --> 0:20:57.876 week ago, and I think it was in the New 0:20:57.956 --> 0:21:01.556 York Times about this about, you know the fact that 0:21:02.036 --> 0:21:06.236 white men are still completely running the classical ballet world. 0:21:07.596 --> 0:21:10.116 You know, there has been some movement but it's something 0:21:10.156 --> 0:21:12.156 that needs to be talked about and addressed, and I 0:21:12.156 --> 0:21:14.196 think you'll see some real shifts once you get more 0:21:14.236 --> 0:21:16.516 diversity at the top. You know, it's not just about 0:21:16.556 --> 0:21:18.876 the diversity see on stage, but it's behind the scenes. 0:21:18.916 --> 0:21:21.436 It's the board of directors, it's the artistic staff, it's 0:21:21.476 --> 0:21:25.396 the teachers at the low levels that are teaching children. 0:21:25.476 --> 0:21:27.676 If they don't see themselves reflected and they don't have 0:21:27.716 --> 0:21:32.076 people who understand them, then that's when you lose that 0:21:32.556 --> 0:21:35.116 connection and people who want to be a part of it. 0:21:35.236 --> 0:21:40.476 So it's tackling these issues on every level. When you 0:21:40.556 --> 0:21:43.716 join the American Ballot Theater, did you feel like you 0:21:43.756 --> 0:21:52.596 had to represent the Wraith at ABT? Yes, But I 0:21:53.236 --> 0:21:56.236 never saw that as a negative thing. I never saw 0:21:56.276 --> 0:22:00.916 that as something put on me or pressure. It's been 0:22:00.996 --> 0:22:04.636 something that I've actively done. From the moment that I 0:22:04.796 --> 0:22:11.196 joined ABT. My immediate visceral react action was, oh, my gosh, 0:22:11.236 --> 0:22:13.756 well I ever see another black woman alongside me in 0:22:13.756 --> 0:22:17.756 this company, and so my goal was getting more brown 0:22:17.876 --> 0:22:22.076 girls in the company with me and telling our stories. 0:22:22.076 --> 0:22:23.676 While I was in a space where I could be 0:22:23.756 --> 0:22:27.196 seen and heard, you could have made a different choice, 0:22:27.236 --> 0:22:30.396 I think, and I understand the choice that you made 0:22:30.396 --> 0:22:33.796 to go to ABT, but you could have chosen to 0:22:33.916 --> 0:22:37.636 go to Dance Theater of Harlaw. I understand they were 0:22:37.796 --> 0:22:41.556 courting you to come to Dance Theater of Harlem. Why 0:22:41.556 --> 0:22:46.236 did you decide to go to American Ballet Theater. Yeah, 0:22:46.236 --> 0:22:49.516 it's a great question. I think from from the beginning, 0:22:50.236 --> 0:22:54.036 my teacher, Cynthia Bradley, from the moment that I started dancing, 0:22:54.076 --> 0:22:58.316 she was very cognizant of the obstacles that might lie 0:22:58.356 --> 0:23:01.756 ahead being a black girl in the ballet world. And 0:23:02.036 --> 0:23:05.756 of all the companies in America and Europe, ABT was 0:23:05.796 --> 0:23:10.196 the most diverse culturally in terms of dancers were from 0:23:10.356 --> 0:23:14.716 and with their training. Most companies are connected to a school. 0:23:14.796 --> 0:23:16.956 You have to train through their school in their technique 0:23:16.956 --> 0:23:19.236 to get into the company. That's why all the dancers 0:23:19.276 --> 0:23:22.836 look similar. But at ABT, they allowed dancers from all 0:23:22.876 --> 0:23:24.756 over the world to come to their company, and they 0:23:24.796 --> 0:23:27.956 liked that they looked different, and so she felt like 0:23:28.036 --> 0:23:31.076 that's a place where she can thrive. So that was 0:23:31.116 --> 0:23:34.156 the reason that ABT was what I was working towards. 0:23:34.236 --> 0:23:38.076 But Dance of Harlem was always around and Arthur Mitchell 0:23:38.196 --> 0:23:40.716 was there supporting me, and I was pretty new to 0:23:40.756 --> 0:23:43.956 the company when Arthur called me and asked me to 0:23:44.076 --> 0:23:46.276 come take company class and speak to him, and he 0:23:46.396 --> 0:23:48.836 knew I was having a difficult time. He understood what 0:23:48.836 --> 0:23:50.356 it was to be the only I mean, he was 0:23:50.676 --> 0:23:53.836 the only black person in a company at New York 0:23:53.836 --> 0:23:56.516 City Ballet and became the first black principal dancer there. 0:23:56.956 --> 0:23:59.276 He said to me, like, you know, you could come 0:23:59.316 --> 0:24:01.596 here and you could be surrounded by people who look 0:24:01.636 --> 0:24:04.756 like you, who will support you. These are unspoken things. 0:24:04.796 --> 0:24:07.956 You don't have to have these microaggressions and explain yourself. 0:24:07.996 --> 0:24:12.676 And he offered me a solos contract. And my thinking was, 0:24:13.476 --> 0:24:15.956 first of all, what Arthur did at New York City 0:24:15.956 --> 0:24:20.036 Ballet change the landscape for opportunities for black dancers everywhere, 0:24:20.396 --> 0:24:22.756 and then creating dance set of Harlem took that to 0:24:22.836 --> 0:24:25.636 a whole new level. And I felt like I had 0:24:26.236 --> 0:24:29.236 a purpose being in that space an American ballet theater 0:24:30.036 --> 0:24:34.676 to make change that we still haven't made, which is 0:24:34.716 --> 0:24:38.956 to exist in these white spaces and succeed and change 0:24:38.996 --> 0:24:41.436 the narrative. And I didn't feel that I could do 0:24:41.516 --> 0:24:44.756 that completely at dance set of Harlem. You know, I 0:24:44.916 --> 0:24:47.276 felt like I would be a part of something incredible 0:24:47.316 --> 0:24:49.636 in historic and I'd be surrounded by people who look 0:24:49.716 --> 0:24:52.956 like me and I'd feel good inside. But I felt 0:24:52.996 --> 0:24:56.076 like I meant to be at ABT and make change there. 0:24:56.316 --> 0:24:59.236 And did you speak out there to make change? Yeah? 0:24:59.276 --> 0:25:01.516 I mean it's been my whole career, and that's what 0:25:01.556 --> 0:25:03.796