Speaker 1: Pushkin Getting Even is produced by Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to
Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus and you can hear Getting Even and other
Speaker 1: Pushkin shows. Add free and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign
Speaker 1: up on the Getting Even show page in Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: or at Pushkin dot Fm. It's difficult to change the
Speaker 1: way people think ballet should be, and I felt like
Speaker 1: I had a purpose, which is to exist in these
Speaker 1: white spaces and succeed and change the narrative. That's ballet
Speaker 1: dancer Misty Copeland. She made history in twenty fifteen when
Speaker 1: she became the first black woman ever to be promoted
Speaker 1: to principal dancer at the American Ballet Theater. When she's
Speaker 1: off stage, Copeland is committed to making more communities feel
Speaker 1: like bay belong in the world of ballet. I feel
Speaker 1: like that's something that I've taken on as a responsibility.
Speaker 1: Copeland's interest in music and movement drew her to ballet
Speaker 1: at a young age. It was her creative outlet and escape,
Speaker 1: and as she progressed, ballet both nurtured and challenged her.
Speaker 1: I attribute my success, the person that I am, all
Speaker 1: of this to so many of the qualities within the
Speaker 1: ballet structure. That gave me the tools to be successful,
Speaker 1: not just as a ballet dancer, but as a person,
Speaker 1: as a woman, as a leader in my community. I'm
Speaker 1: Anita Hill. This is Getting Even, my podcast about equality
Speaker 1: and what it takes to get there. On Getting Even,
Speaker 1: I speak with people who are improving our imperfect world,
Speaker 1: people who took risks and broke the rules. In this episode,
Speaker 1: Missy Copeland and I discuss how she journeyed from the
Speaker 1: local boys and Girls club to the American Ballet Theater,
Speaker 1: maneuvering through racist politics along the way. We also discuss
Speaker 1: how she uses that very platform to empower black and
Speaker 1: brown girls. Today. You were the first person on my
Speaker 1: list to interview, and it's really a tribute to all
Speaker 1: of the wonderful things that you've done and that you
Speaker 1: continue to do in your professional life, as well as
Speaker 1: the way you present outside of the ballet world. Thank you. So,
Speaker 1: I want to just get started with your story. Am
Speaker 1: I correct that you started ballet at thirteen? Yes? You are,
Speaker 1: And I say it that way because it seems to
Speaker 1: me that most of the people who are in those
Speaker 1: beginning classes are like five years old. Yes, yes, that's true.
Speaker 1: So what was it like for you those first few
Speaker 1: years as somebody who was starting much later than some
Speaker 1: of the people who you were probably dancing with. You know,
Speaker 1: it was an opportunity that I feel like I was
Speaker 1: craving and waiting for. Didn't realize it, you know, coming
Speaker 1: from the communities that I grew up in, being in
Speaker 1: a single parent home and being one of six children.
Speaker 1: But I mean I was so introverted. I had a
Speaker 1: lot of shame that was kind of surrounding me in
Speaker 1: terms of not wanting people to know the circumstances that
Speaker 1: we were living in, and so I became this like
Speaker 1: shell of a person. I was not involved in any
Speaker 1: any extracurricular activities, anything artistic or physical in terms of sports,
Speaker 1: until I decided at like twelve and a half that
Speaker 1: out of nowhere that I was going to audition for
Speaker 1: the drill team, and not just auditioned to be on
Speaker 1: the team, but I was going to audition to be
Speaker 1: captain of the team. And you know, I think that
Speaker 1: it was this evolution of having music in my life,
Speaker 1: which was constantly around the house, and I was always
Speaker 1: drawn to lyrics and it was like, these are the
Speaker 1: words I wish I could speak, and things I'm feeling,
Speaker 1: but I'm not capable. I don't have the tools, and
Speaker 1: movement became this outlet with the chaos in my home,
Speaker 1: whether it was abuse, instability, all of that. So I
Speaker 1: auditioned for the drill team and I made captain. A
Speaker 1: family was shocked. They're like, to you understand that you're
Speaker 1: going to be on stage performing for people. And it
Speaker 1: was interesting because being on a stage was the one
Speaker 1: space that I felt protected. I felt like I could
Speaker 1: express myself and communicate to the audience, but I didn't
Speaker 1: have to see them. They weren't going to respond in
Speaker 1: a way that I had to address what they were
Speaker 1: thinking or their opinion. The teacher who was running the
Speaker 1: drill team saw potential in me, and she suggested I
Speaker 1: take a free ballet class that was being offered at
Speaker 1: my local boys and Girls club. So it was at
Speaker 1: thirteen years old that I really entered into ballet. I
Speaker 1: took my first ballet class on a basketball court at
Speaker 1: my club, and the teacher, who was teaching from the
Speaker 1: local ballet school, she immediately said, I think you're a
Speaker 1: prodigy and I want to take you into my school
Speaker 1: full scholarship. She eventually invited me to live with her,
Speaker 1: and from the moment that I stepped into her studio,
Speaker 1: the goal was for me to dance professionally, and American
Speaker 1: Ballet theater was always the goal. So it was a
Speaker 1: clear vision of what I was working towards. But I
Speaker 1: just fell in love with this thing that gave me
Speaker 1: a purpose, gave me a way to grow as a
Speaker 1: human being, and I just feel like it saved my life.
Speaker 1: You said so many things that caught my attention. You
Speaker 1: said there was a teacher, there was music that said
Speaker 1: what you wanted to say but couldn't didn't have the
Speaker 1: artistry to say it. And you said boys and Girls Club.
Speaker 1: So those seem to be the really important elements of
Speaker 1: your life that helped you in what you describe as
Speaker 1: an unstable situation. Absolutely, and all of those things are
Speaker 1: still so important in my life. So what music were
Speaker 1: you listening to. There's a lot of soul and R
Speaker 1: and B and hip hop being played around the house.
Speaker 1: It was an array of music, But like Anita Baker
Speaker 1: and Shade and Aretha Franklin, there's a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1: The one that I really connected with was when Mariah
Speaker 1: Carey's debut album came out, and you know, it was
Speaker 1: the first time that I saw a biracial woman of
Speaker 1: her caliber, her talent, her exposure, and I felt like
Speaker 1: I could see myself in her. It wasn't a conscious
Speaker 1: thing at the time, Like, it wasn't until I was
Speaker 1: an adult that I could really decipher what that draw was.
Speaker 1: That's the importance of representation. It allows for you to
Speaker 1: see possibilities and it allows you to dream. And you know,
Speaker 1: Mariah as a friend of mine now and it's just
Speaker 1: funny to be able to like share these things with her.
Speaker 1: And she's always like, I'm not taking credit for your
Speaker 1: ballet career. I'm like, but Maria, you literally were like
Speaker 1: the catalysts for everything, you know, for this, like belief
Speaker 1: in myself that I could do this thing that I
Speaker 1: knew nothing about, and seeing someone who looked like me
Speaker 1: succeeding and talented and gifted. Well, you know. But that's
Speaker 1: an amazing thing, is that that there are so many
Speaker 1: different influences in each of our lives, but that you
Speaker 1: could connect those influences with what you ultimately came to do.
Speaker 1: I also note that that you had an outlet for
Speaker 1: what was going on in your mind about what your
Speaker 1: capabilities were, and how important it is for people to
Speaker 1: have ballet or whatever it is that they set their
Speaker 1: mind to do, have an opportunity to find it. Yes,
Speaker 1: but I imagine that ballet was not available for everyone
Speaker 1: in your area. You're absolutely right, and that's why I'm
Speaker 1: so passionate about, first of all, identifying the beauty in
Speaker 1: classical dance and all the positives that there are in
Speaker 1: terms of like how it helped me as a young
Speaker 1: person to develop as a human being. That's why I'm
Speaker 1: such an advocate for creating opportunities for it to be
Speaker 1: accessible to more communities and then kind of changing the
Speaker 1: narrative and the outlook on how these communities see dance
Speaker 1: and that they do belong in those spaces. You know,
Speaker 1: I attribut my success the person that I am all
Speaker 1: of this too, So many of the qualities within the
Speaker 1: ballet structure that gave me the tools to be successful
Speaker 1: not just as a ballet dancer, but as a person,
Speaker 1: as a woman, as a leader in my community, and
Speaker 1: for me as Misty the Black Ballerina. It's kind of
Speaker 1: picking apart what are the things that need to change
Speaker 1: and evolve in ballet, but what are the amazing things
Speaker 1: about it that can help so many children right out
Speaker 1: of the box. Let's say you were thinking way ahead.
Speaker 1: I mean not that you were just going to learn ballet,
Speaker 1: but that you were going to have a career in ballet. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that says something about who you
Speaker 1: are too. You know, you had an ambition, you were ambitious.
Speaker 1: I don't think that consciously I was. I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm focused, I'm going to be a professional, But it
Speaker 1: was like, I love this and there's an no way
Speaker 1: I could live my life without having it. And then
Speaker 1: it evolved into learning about the history of ballet, learning
Speaker 1: about the history of American Ballet theater, how I could
Speaker 1: possibly fit into it. Then being brought to my first
Speaker 1: live performance seeing ABT when I was fifteen years old,
Speaker 1: and saying, I can see it clearly, this is exactly
Speaker 1: what I want to do. These are what my goals are.
Speaker 1: But again, it was having an incredible support system and
Speaker 1: structure around me that allowed me to see those things clearly.
Speaker 1: And you were making that kind of decision about where
Speaker 1: you would go with the American Ballet Theater against the
Speaker 1: backdrop of a society where black women's bodies have been
Speaker 1: scrutinized and misrepresented and dismissed and oversexualized and all kinds
Speaker 1: of ways misinterpreted. And you were breaking into at the time,
Speaker 1: but was a mostly white space. That's amazing in and
Speaker 1: of help, But I think what is truly amazing is
Speaker 1: that you've done it on your own terms. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: been quite a journey, and there have been people around
Speaker 1: me that have seen it clearly, like my first ballet teacher,
Speaker 1: Cynthia Bradley, whom I lived with and who saw this
Speaker 1: vision from the beginning. I always thought she was this
Speaker 1: crazy lady that was super artistic, and I was like, yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna keep doing what I love. You can
Speaker 1: have your visions. But I was in almost this protective
Speaker 1: bubble where though I was the only black girl for
Speaker 1: the most part in the studios that I trained in
Speaker 1: as a young person, Cynthia was really good about not
Speaker 1: letting that enter my bubble. There was a lot going
Speaker 1: on that I didn't learn about until I was older.
Speaker 1: There were parents who were removing their children from the
Speaker 1: school because I was doing the lead as a person
Speaker 1: of color. I was taking parts away from the child
Speaker 1: when they were giving money as board members. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of a lot of politics and racism
Speaker 1: happening that a lot of black and brown children experienced
Speaker 1: to their face at a young age in the ballet world,
Speaker 1: and I feel fortunate that I didn't experience that. It
Speaker 1: wasn't until I was a professional that I really understood
Speaker 1: how rare it was for me to be where I was.
Speaker 1: You know, I was the only black woman for the
Speaker 1: first decade of my career at ABT, and it was
Speaker 1: a lot. It was a lot of learning on the spot,
Speaker 1: learning on the job, but also being vulnerable and open
Speaker 1: to having mentors come into my life, and being fortunate
Speaker 1: enough that people were reaching out to me, black women
Speaker 1: reaching out to me outside of the ballet world that
Speaker 1: wanted to be a support system. And that's why I
Speaker 1: understand the importance of being a mentor for the next generation.
Speaker 1: After the break, Copeland and I discussed the scrutiny that
Speaker 1: black female bodies and how it's often amplified in the
Speaker 1: world of ballet. You're listening to getting even I'm Anita Hill.
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Misty Copeland, the first black female principal
Speaker 1: dancer at the American Ballet Theater we talk about her
Speaker 1: book Black Ballerinas and her mission to celebrate dancers of
Speaker 1: color who have paved the way. We also get into
Speaker 1: how black bodies fit or don't fit the traditional ballet esthetic,
Speaker 1: and why Copeland's iconic roles are even more meaningful as
Speaker 1: a result. Were you ever told that you didn't have
Speaker 1: the right body for ballet? Yes? I still am to
Speaker 1: this day. Yes. What's so interesting is that from the
Speaker 1: time I started dance, why I was called a prodigy
Speaker 1: was that I was being told I had the perfect
Speaker 1: ballet body. I was given full scholarships, you know. I
Speaker 1: was told, like, you have the right body proportions. And
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, I become a professional and
Speaker 1: it's like something switched and I no longer had the
Speaker 1: right body. And a lot of that was like deciphering
Speaker 1: what that language means. And the more I was exposed
Speaker 1: to other dancers of color, other black women in the
Speaker 1: ballet world, the more you realize, oh, that's just code
Speaker 1: for you don't have the right skin color, and you
Speaker 1: will not fit into a cord of ballet. You will
Speaker 1: bring imbalance to this white sea of dancers. It was
Speaker 1: a lot to take in and like in a ballet company.
Speaker 1: There's no mentorship program, there's no guidance. You know. I
Speaker 1: moved to New York City straight out of high school
Speaker 1: at seventeen on my own, and you're just kind of
Speaker 1: thrown into the sea, you know, you sink or swim.
Speaker 1: And it was important that I had incredible women that
Speaker 1: came into my life that kind of put that life
Speaker 1: vest on me and helped me to like figure it out.
Speaker 1: So do you think that a part of it, too,
Speaker 1: is not just not fitting into the particular static but
Speaker 1: also this historic stereotype that we have of black women dancers.
Speaker 1: I think about Josephine Baker, who was, you know, able
Speaker 1: to do what she was doing because she was considered
Speaker 1: to be exotic and that wasn't really what's happening in
Speaker 1: ballet was. I mean, the exotic was not what they
Speaker 1: were looking for. No. No, it's difficult to change the
Speaker 1: way people think ballet should be. And then it's just
Speaker 1: it keeps getting repeated, like this is what a ballerina
Speaker 1: should look like. She should be fair skinned and soft
Speaker 1: and feminine, and black women are not often depicted that
Speaker 1: way or given an opportunity to be seen that way,
Speaker 1: which is why it's so important, you know, for me
Speaker 1: to take on roles like Juliette and Romeo and Juliet
Speaker 1: or the white Swan and Swan Lake. These are all
Speaker 1: roles that have been kept from Black women for generations
Speaker 1: and generations because they're seen as the opposite of what
Speaker 1: black women are seen as. I think what happened with
Speaker 1: me is that I got to a point where a
Speaker 1: lot of black dancers get to where, first of all,
Speaker 1: the opportunities stop and you're not surrounded by people who
Speaker 1: have been through what you've been through. There's no real
Speaker 1: documentation of our history. It's not like we can open
Speaker 1: up a history book. Oh, this person went through this,
Speaker 1: this person went through this, and you kind of pick
Speaker 1: up from where they left off, learned from their experiences.
Speaker 1: We don't have that, and I feel like that's something
Speaker 1: that I've taken on as a responsibility. You know, I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm in this position to create our own
Speaker 1: narrative and write our history. And you know, that was
Speaker 1: really the reasoning for me writing Black Collars. My journey
Speaker 1: to our legacy was to be able to share this
Speaker 1: twenty year journey that I've had being a professional with
Speaker 1: American Ballet theater. And you know, this wasn't like I
Speaker 1: decided to write this book and then I went on
Speaker 1: Google six months prior and I started learning. This has
Speaker 1: been twenty years of learning on the job, learning from
Speaker 1: other black dancers that I'd meet and connect with, and
Speaker 1: what dancers came before me. You know, it allows you
Speaker 1: to see where I can go because of what they've
Speaker 1: done and the doors that have been opened for me.
Speaker 1: And there are just so many incredible dancers that people
Speaker 1: don't know their names or their contributions to this art form.
Speaker 1: What are the names of some of those women. I'm like,
Speaker 1: looking at my book right now, there's so many tie
Speaker 1: him and as Janet Collins, Deborrah Austin, Raven Wilkinson, Marion Sugette.
Speaker 1: You know, they're the dancers today that I felt it
Speaker 1: was important to include in the list because it's not
Speaker 1: just about our past. It's about the dancers that are
Speaker 1: doing it now, that are up in coming, that are
Speaker 1: going to continue on our legacies. Erica Loell, Nikisha Fogo,
Speaker 1: Ebony Williams. There's so many, and in my book, I
Speaker 1: have twenty seven that I featured, and that's not at
Speaker 1: all a comprehensive list. But you know, you're only given
Speaker 1: a certain number of pages on books, and so I
Speaker 1: know you know, but there's there's an incredible list of
Speaker 1: black and brown dancers to learn about there. Of course,
Speaker 1: when you give us that description of your book and
Speaker 1: your work and your thinking, I'm thinking about black girls.
Speaker 1: Did you write this book for them? Yes? You know,
Speaker 1: of course, everything that I do, I want it to
Speaker 1: be for everyone, even if it's if it's different communities
Speaker 1: learning about what it is to be a black woman,
Speaker 1: what it is to be a black dancer in this world.
Speaker 1: It's for everyone. But of course you know from my
Speaker 1: first book, my memoir, the through line throughout the entire
Speaker 1: book was this is for the little brown girls, you know,
Speaker 1: And so of course those are the people that are
Speaker 1: often excluded when it comes to opportunities, when it comes
Speaker 1: to being nurtured and told they're beautiful and told they're important.
Speaker 1: So they're definitely at the top of mind whenever I'm
Speaker 1: writing or thinking about the next generation. In a way,
Speaker 1: you are writing the history of ballet that hasn't been told.
Speaker 1: And I wonder if in that writing you have come
Speaker 1: up with your own idea about why there is this
Speaker 1: resistance to the presence of the black body. What's behind
Speaker 1: that in your opinion, Well, I think for starters, you know,
Speaker 1: this is a European art form, and that's kind of
Speaker 1: the base of it. So many of the stories and
Speaker 1: the ballets that we tell are not a reflection of
Speaker 1: our community as black people, and of so many communities,
Speaker 1: especially in America. There are the stories of European white
Speaker 1: men from the eighteen hundreds, four hundred years later. It's
Speaker 1: not really something that you can really grasp because it's
Speaker 1: been exposed to so many different cultures over the course
Speaker 1: of the time. So, yes, those are the origins, but
Speaker 1: that's no longer the limitations of who sees it, who's
Speaker 1: influenced by it, who's inspired by it. It's now a
Speaker 1: part of the fabric of America when you talk about
Speaker 1: how female dancers are portrayed through the eyes of white men,
Speaker 1: white European man, and that's where the sexism comes in,
Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah. I was reading an article like a
Speaker 1: week ago, and I think it was in the New
Speaker 1: York Times about this about, you know the fact that
Speaker 1: white men are still completely running the classical ballet world.
Speaker 1: You know, there has been some movement but it's something
Speaker 1: that needs to be talked about and addressed, and I
Speaker 1: think you'll see some real shifts once you get more
Speaker 1: diversity at the top. You know, it's not just about
Speaker 1: the diversity see on stage, but it's behind the scenes.
Speaker 1: It's the board of directors, it's the artistic staff, it's
Speaker 1: the teachers at the low levels that are teaching children.
Speaker 1: If they don't see themselves reflected and they don't have
Speaker 1: people who understand them, then that's when you lose that
Speaker 1: connection and people who want to be a part of it.
Speaker 1: So it's tackling these issues on every level. When you
Speaker 1: join the American Ballot Theater, did you feel like you
Speaker 1: had to represent the Wraith at ABT? Yes, But I
Speaker 1: never saw that as a negative thing. I never saw
Speaker 1: that as something put on me or pressure. It's been
Speaker 1: something that I've actively done. From the moment that I
Speaker 1: joined ABT. My immediate visceral react action was, oh, my gosh,
Speaker 1: well I ever see another black woman alongside me in
Speaker 1: this company, and so my goal was getting more brown
Speaker 1: girls in the company with me and telling our stories.
Speaker 1: While I was in a space where I could be
Speaker 1: seen and heard, you could have made a different choice,
Speaker 1: I think, and I understand the choice that you made
Speaker 1: to go to ABT, but you could have chosen to
Speaker 1: go to Dance Theater of Harlaw. I understand they were
Speaker 1: courting you to come to Dance Theater of Harlem. Why
Speaker 1: did you decide to go to American Ballet Theater. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a great question. I think from from the beginning,
Speaker 1: my teacher, Cynthia Bradley, from the moment that I started dancing,
Speaker 1: she was very cognizant of the obstacles that might lie
Speaker 1: ahead being a black girl in the ballet world. And
Speaker 1: of all the companies in America and Europe, ABT was
Speaker 1: the most diverse culturally in terms of dancers were from
Speaker 1: and with their training. Most companies are connected to a school.
Speaker 1: You have to train through their school in their technique
Speaker 1: to get into the company. That's why all the dancers
Speaker 1: look similar. But at ABT, they allowed dancers from all
Speaker 1: over the world to come to their company, and they
Speaker 1: liked that they looked different, and so she felt like
Speaker 1: that's a place where she can thrive. So that was
Speaker 1: the reason that ABT was what I was working towards.
Speaker 1: But Dance of Harlem was always around and Arthur Mitchell
Speaker 1: was there supporting me, and I was pretty new to
Speaker 1: the company when Arthur called me and asked me to
Speaker 1: come take company class and speak to him, and he
Speaker 1: knew I was having a difficult time. He understood what
Speaker 1: it was to be the only I mean, he was
Speaker 1: the only black person in a company at New York
Speaker 1: City Ballet and became the first black principal dancer there.
Speaker 1: He said to me, like, you know, you could come
Speaker 1: here and you could be surrounded by people who look
Speaker 1: like you, who will support you. These are unspoken things.
Speaker 1: You don't have to have these microaggressions and explain yourself.
Speaker 1: And he offered me a solos contract. And my thinking was,
Speaker 1: first of all, what Arthur did at New York City
Speaker 1: Ballet change the landscape for opportunities for black dancers everywhere,
Speaker 1: and then creating dance set of Harlem took that to
Speaker 1: a whole new level. And I felt like I had
Speaker 1: a purpose being in that space an American ballet theater
Speaker 1: to make change that we still haven't made, which is
Speaker 1: to exist in these white spaces and succeed and change
Speaker 1: the narrative. And I didn't feel that I could do
Speaker 1: that completely at dance set of Harlem. You know, I
Speaker 1: felt like I would be a part of something incredible
Speaker 1: in historic and I'd be surrounded by people who look
Speaker 1: like me and I'd feel good inside. But I felt
Speaker 1: like I meant to be at ABT and make change there.
Speaker 1: And did you speak out there to make change? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean it's been my whole career, and that's what
Speaker 1: I've been doing it for twenty years. You know. It's
Speaker 1: it's been learning and navigating and doing it in ways
Speaker 1: that are acceptable. You know, it's like any black person
Speaker 1: navigating their way through a white construct and learning how
Speaker 1: to have those conversations. That's a very intimidating thing to
Speaker 1: be a young black girl having conversations with your older,
Speaker 1: white male artistic director and being able to articulate yourself
Speaker 1: in express without being too aggressive or too overemotional or angry.
Speaker 1: You know, all of these things attributed to being a
Speaker 1: woman and to being black. And it's been a long process,
Speaker 1: and I feel like I'm definitely in a space now
Speaker 1: where I'm in a position of power where I can
Speaker 1: speak to the truths of so many dancers that feel
Speaker 1: they can't because they may be reprimanded for it. I
Speaker 1: also think that we're in a different time, you know,
Speaker 1: post George Floyd, where it's not just the world that's
Speaker 1: you know, that's looking at itself and wanting to take change,
Speaker 1: but the ballet world is absolutely doing it. And it's
Speaker 1: a good feeling to feel like I'm not the only
Speaker 1: person on this platform speaking, but that other dancers of
Speaker 1: color feel empowered to do it now. You mentioned George
Speaker 1: Floyd and twenty was a racial reckoning for the country.
Speaker 1: Have you seen meaningful change in the last couple of
Speaker 1: years in the ballet world, change that can translate to
Speaker 1: what's going on outside in the world too. Yes, this
Speaker 1: is you know, this is the first time that I
Speaker 1: feel that we're being exposed. Ballet culture is such a
Speaker 1: niche thing and we kind of exist in our own
Speaker 1: world and so the people inside of it get away
Speaker 1: with a lot of things. And I feel like we've
Speaker 1: almost been exposed, you know, the doors have been opened
Speaker 1: and people are seeing what we went through, you know,
Speaker 1: with this rise of Black Lives Matter, like the ballet
Speaker 1: world is like a couple hundred years behind that. So
Speaker 1: it's been a moment. But also with the pandemic, it
Speaker 1: really I think made the ballet world in particular, step
Speaker 1: back and take a look at itself. So I'm hopeful,
Speaker 1: but you know, we have to just keep the conversation
Speaker 1: going and hold people accountable. It shouldn't just be our
Speaker 1: responsibility as black and brown people. Everyone should be contributing
Speaker 1: to the changes in evolution. A couple of years ago,
Speaker 1: a dancer, Chloe Lopez Gomes won her complaint against the
Speaker 1: German Ballet Company for race discrimination. Very recently last year,
Speaker 1: Christine fint Roy left Dance Theater of Harlem for the
Speaker 1: Boston Ballet and she said, you know, out loud, something
Speaker 1: that probably dancers wouldn't have said years ago. But she
Speaker 1: says she dances for the other people to change people's lives.
Speaker 1: And so I guess I ask you can breakthroughs like yours,
Speaker 1: like miss Lopez Gomes, like Miss fint Roys, Can they
Speaker 1: change people's lives? Absolutely? Absolutely. I mean I didn't even
Speaker 1: have exposure to that, and my life was changed through
Speaker 1: this art form. And I've seen it. I've seen it firsthand.
Speaker 1: You know, simply by existing, by being a body on
Speaker 1: that stage that people can connect to and relate to
Speaker 1: and see possibilities. And it may not be connected to ballet,
Speaker 1: but they can say I can exist in a space
Speaker 1: where there aren't very many, but it's a possibility for me.
Speaker 1: I definitely think that all of these stories being accessible
Speaker 1: will change lives, are changing lives, and that's why it's
Speaker 1: so important for me to continue on these legacies and
Speaker 1: share these stories. It's definitely making an impact. Well, I
Speaker 1: will just close by saying this. When I was in
Speaker 1: law school, I took my first ballet class. It literally
Speaker 1: change the way that I sell myself and I sell
Speaker 1: my body. And you also have to keep in mind
Speaker 1: that I am a farm girl from Oklahoma, rural Oklahoma,
Speaker 1: really rural Oklahoma, and I have loved ballet and I
Speaker 1: think you're absolutely right that ballet can change people's perspective
Speaker 1: of life and of their own bodies and where they belong.
Speaker 1: And and in large part that is because of the
Speaker 1: work that you're doing that people understand that. So thank
Speaker 1: you so much, Thanks for all that you are doing,
Speaker 1: and keep up the great work. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for having me this and honor thank you. Mister Copeland's
Speaker 1: story reminds us that opportunity and support can change a
Speaker 1: person's life and how that in turn can change our world.
Speaker 1: Along with her immense talent, determination and hard work, Copeland's
Speaker 1: legacy will be her commitment to creating a career on
Speaker 1: her own terms. She is inspiring and uplifting the next generation.
Speaker 1: We need to give them the support and resources they
Speaker 1: need to succeed, resources that are too often lacking for
Speaker 1: black and brown girls. Copeland is paying it back and
Speaker 1: paying it forward, lifting up the names of the dancers
Speaker 1: on whose shoulders she stands, and bringing others along with
Speaker 1: her as she diversifies ballet. In the next episode, I
Speaker 1: speak with author, educator, and activist Monique Morris about her
Speaker 1: work to transform the lives of black and brown girls
Speaker 1: and how they're represented in the world, to unpack how
Speaker 1: we normalized this expectation that black girls will be loud, sassy, combative,
Speaker 1: and sexualized without talking about remedy. Getting Even is a
Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries and is written and hosted by
Speaker 1: me Anita Hill. It is produced by Mola Board and
Speaker 1: Brittany Brown. Our editor is Sarah Kramer, our engineer is
Speaker 1: Amanda kay Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Luis
Speaker 1: Gara composed original music for the show. Our executive producers
Speaker 1: are Mia Lobel and le tal malaud Our Director of
Speaker 1: Development is Justine Lang. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane,
Speaker 1: Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnarz, and Jacob Weisberg.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Anita Hill and
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Anita Hill. You can find Pushkin on
Speaker 1: all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign
Speaker 1: up for our newsletter at pushkin dot f M. If
Speaker 1: you love this show in others from Pushkin Industries, consider
Speaker 1: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you
Speaker 1: can hear Getting Even and other Pushkin shows add free
Speaker 1: and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign up on the Getting
Speaker 1: Even show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm.
Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen