1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: I started my career in the trenches, and honey, I've 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: stayed there for the past forty years. I've worked every 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: facet of the criminal justice system, police, courts, and corrections. 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 1: I've worked with law enforcement and victims of crime and 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: criminals to solve cold cases, and I have genuinely befriended 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: them all, well, not all of them, but most of 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: them i've had. I had the opportunity to work a 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: cold case from nineteen sixty five, and one of the 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: gifts of work in that case was being able to 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: sit with Captain Cliff Strickland, retired from the Atlanta Police Department, 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: who in nineteen sixty five was the lead detective on 12 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 1: the case I was working, and his recall of dates 13 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: and addresses and times and names was just extraordinary. You 14 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: would have thought that it happened a week ago, not 15 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: fifty five years ago. Tonight, we're talking about the murder 16 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: of seventeen year old Tammy Jackson, who was not just murdered, 17 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: but tortured, stabbed over a hundred and thirty times, hog 18 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: tiede and run over by a car. We've had the 19 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: opportunity to talk to her sister, and tonight we have 20 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 1: the opportunity to talk to the lead detective, Detective Tara Smith. 21 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this his own seven. Now, y'all, 22 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about what we learned last time. 23 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: The location is so important. The killer picked it, he 24 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: selected when and where and how, So we're gonna start 25 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: where it ended. This case takes us to Savannah, Georgia, 26 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: deep south coastal town, Spanish moss hanging in the live oaks, 27 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: cobblestone streets that take you straight to the river front, 28 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: horse drawn carriages that take you past historical homes. Savannah 29 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: is known for its parties, parades, and crime. It is 30 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: a postcard town where evil lurks. Just across the river 31 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: if you are standing on River Street is Hudginson Island, 32 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: a river island seven miles long and a mile wide. 33 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: It serves the Port of Savannah and there's only two 34 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: ways to access it by ferry or car. You can 35 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: either go from the Talmadge Bridge or Highway seventeen. It's 36 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: a narrow, two lane roads lined with thick woods, occasional 37 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: open spaces, sandy ground that goes right to the river's edge. 38 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: All around. Most tourists have never heard of it and 39 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: wouldn't even know it existed. Most locals have never heard 40 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: of it or been there. So last episode we talked 41 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: about victimology. I'm gonna take a break right here and 42 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: discuss a little bit about what we learned. Tammy was 43 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: an eleventh grader from a strong family, loving parents, close sisters, 44 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: an older sister, Stacy, and a twin sister, Tara. She 45 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: loved to dance, hang out with friends. She was in 46 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: that juxtaposition where she thought she was grown, but she 47 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: was still just a kid. She and her mom budded, 48 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: heads came to a head one night, her mom made 49 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: that famous statement, my rules, my house. You can't live 50 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: here if you're not gonna follow him, and Tammy moved out, 51 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: and she moved out with a boyfriend older and she 52 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: was by about a decade, but she still went to 53 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: school every day. When we are talking about a homicide, 54 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: this brutal one that took multiple weapons, a lot of time, 55 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: and a little bit of skill, believe it or not, 56 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: we need to talk about the suspect geology tonight and 57 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: the suspect oology. We need a special guest and tonight, 58 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: it is such a gift to have Detective Tara Smith. 59 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: Tara Smith is a mom. She homeschools her children. She's 60 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: married to a firefighter. She is a detective with the 61 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: Savannah Police Department, but she is also a pistol and 62 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: I think personally she's the answer to this case. Detective Smith, 63 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 1: welcome to his own seven. Thank you, Thank you for 64 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: having me. You and I walked that crime scene together. 65 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: But I want you just to break down what that 66 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 1: scene is. Like, I mean the first thing, I mean, 67 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: you remember when when we went actually took my own 68 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: personal vehicle, which is a deep wrangler, because I knew 69 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: that one of our police cars, a low, low ride 70 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: in vehicle, would not make it to the scene without 71 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: getting stuck. And if you remember, Cheryl, do you remember 72 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: my jeep getting stuck and bogged down. So that goes 73 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: to tell you about the scene in and of itself. Now, 74 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: as you already explained, like Hutchison Island at its widest 75 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: point is a mile. It's not very big, so so 76 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: it's just a small stretch and it's woods. You come 77 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: off the bridge, you can turn left or right and 78 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: you're met with immediately like tall pines, dense pines, and 79 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: there's little off turns where you can go, but you 80 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: the only thing that you're accessing would again be the river, 81 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: so you're only there unless you're you're working with the 82 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: Georgia Port Authority. We walked the scene and it's it's 83 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: very soft dirt in any of the clear spots, it's 84 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: tall like forested areas. It's very secluded even broad daylight. 85 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: You have privacy to do whatever it is you can 86 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: think of. And that's what really stands out about this 87 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: this crime scene in particular. I mean, you could anything 88 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: goes at this crime scene. You're not going to be interrupted. 89 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: Did Tammy have any ties to Hudson Island, Well, we 90 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: know that, you know, just being her age. Hudgeson Island 91 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: would have been a place that teenagers in that time 92 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: knew about if they're gonna go drinking or smoking or 93 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: hanging out or doing anything where again they're not going 94 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: to be discovered or nobody's gonna walk up on you. 95 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: And Hutchinson Island it's probably a place that she would 96 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: have been familiar with. And I do know just from 97 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: you know, the case, reviewing her diaries and things like that, 98 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: that it is the place that she has been to before. 99 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: The spot is used for things that you wouldn't want 100 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: to do out in public. It's you know, he and 101 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: she and uh, some teenager stuff drinking. It is a 102 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: place where, you know, where you can innocently be drinking 103 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 1: some beers because you don't want mom to know. And 104 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: it's also a place where uh Mr Jones is taking prostitute. 105 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: It's very private and secluded. I know when we were 106 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: driving following you, there were these little cutoffs where you 107 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,239 Speaker 1: could just maybe park one car and like you said, 108 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: you could be there in complete privacy. But then when 109 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: you got to the clearing where the murder occurred, I mean, 110 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: you could part thirty cars out there and have the 111 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: greatest graduation night ever. It's kind of like what you 112 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: would see in the movies when you're having like a 113 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: teen bonfire. Like I mean, it's I can name a 114 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: few movies where we've seen that scene, just as secluded 115 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: at in the forest clear lot and uh exactly where 116 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: her body was found was a clear lot, completely surrounded 117 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: by woods. There was only one way to, which would 118 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: have been a little inlet, a little dirt road where 119 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: the people that found her would come and go. You 120 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: have privacy you have openness, and the only people out 121 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: there to bother you aren't people. They are huge mosquitoes, 122 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: all right. So when you and I were also there, 123 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: the thing that struck me is if they had just 124 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: thrown her in the river, or they had just tossed 125 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: her twenty yards into the wounds, she would have never 126 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: been found. Does this person want to be found? They 127 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: do this on purpose and leave this body discoverable for somebody, 128 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: or is it somebody that was interrupted, or is it 129 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: someone that just is really stupid? And like you said, 130 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: I mean, you're literally ten ft from the river. If 131 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: you if you wanted to hide her, you all you 132 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: needed to do was walk ten feet with her soaking. 133 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: What she isn't but a hundred pounds, I mean, she's 134 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: very little. You could have easily picked her up, could 135 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: have obviously pulled her into the woodline. Again in this place, 136 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: I'm very familiar where it used to be in one 137 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 1: of my beats when I was in control. I guess 138 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 1: I'm I'm gonna say. Quarterly we would find a body 139 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: out there that had been dumped out there, and it 140 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: was typically a prostitution type thing. And when we would 141 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: find these bodies, they were always attempted to be concealed 142 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: in the woodline. Tammy's case doesn't fit that she's just 143 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: out in the open in this perfect, pristine soft dirt 144 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: which leads lots of tracks, entire prints and footprints. So 145 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: I know that Tammy was walking around on this crime scene. 146 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: I do know that at some point in time she's 147 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: walking around there. Because she was walking around there, then 148 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: you know that the case that it must have happened there, 149 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: that she was not done. You know one thing that 150 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: struck me the very first time you and I spoke 151 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 1: on the phone was how deliberately you thought of this 152 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: case like you did a three sixty the first time 153 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: you ever opened that file. So you were never single 154 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: focused on any one thing. You didn't have blinders own. 155 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: You were completely open to if there's something new to try, 156 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to try it. And I personally think that 157 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: was pretty incredible as old as this case is, that 158 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: you don't open it up and all of a sudden, 159 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: just zero, you know somebody and that's it. I was 160 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: really impressed with your We're gonna start from ground zero 161 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: and I'm working everything like it happened yesterday. I like 162 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: to do that if any case. Really, I don't like 163 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: to read the investigator's narrative until I've looked at the scene, 164 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: I've researched how you investigate things, and it's really how 165 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: was their last day? I like to get it from 166 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: the nine on one call what I know took place 167 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: in those few hours, and then just work it as 168 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: though I'm the one on the case that day obviously, 169 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: you know, and we can get into it in a 170 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: little bit, like as far as how in depth the 171 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: suspect list on this case is, and how how this 172 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: is not a simple case. It's probably one of the 173 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: most complex cases I've ever worked. And I mean, really, 174 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: if it wasn't for you and obviously her family, like 175 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: her sister, pushing this case, I would have been stuck, 176 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: because in a case like this, you really need science 177 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: to narrow it down for you. I agree, And to me, 178 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 1: I mean I have a mantra every tool on every case, 179 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: every time period, whatever it needs to be thrown at 180 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: that case, you need to do it. Anything in the toolbox, 181 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: use it. And I think it's really important here too, 182 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: just to remind people that when you are dissecting a murder, 183 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: especially one that involves overkill, in a remote place, already 184 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: in a small town. I think it is imperative to 185 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: go step by step. So at this point, we've talked 186 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: about she was stabbed over a hundred thirty times, and 187 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: some publications have used the term hog tide and then 188 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: run over by a car. So at this point, detective, 189 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: why don't you tell us what all was done to 190 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: that child? I probably know a little bit more than 191 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: what I can discuss right now before we take the 192 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: case in the court. But what we do know, and 193 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: also what was released in the papers. I mean, she 194 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: was found in an open area. She was I wouldn't 195 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: call it hog tied, but she was tied up in 196 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: a very well dressed knot. She was not able to 197 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: move or defend herself in any way, shape or form. 198 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: She was stabbed at least a hundred and thirty times, 199 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: and at some point in time a car ran over her. 200 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: We know that there was probably other things that took 201 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: place as far as her injuries are concerned. And I 202 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: feel like calling it overkill. That's not even a good 203 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: word adequately describe this. It's more than overkill. It is. 204 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 1: It's just so excessive. When you see cases that are 205 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: overkilled you're thinking like, oh, you know, I I emptied 206 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: my magazine on you, or I I shot you several times, 207 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: or maybe I maybe I stabbed you ten times. To 208 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: try to picture a hundred and thirty times, if if 209 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: you've ever done workouts or hurts anything, you don't have 210 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: to get a hundred of three steps or whatever. So 211 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: I took a button knife to my couch to just 212 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: count out what it would take to get to a 213 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty. I don't want to be gross about it, 214 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: but like, I'm not going through the couch like somebody 215 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: went through Tammy. So I'm not even requiring the pressure 216 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: that it would have taken for whoever did this to Tammy. 217 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: And I was still wounded, I was still tired. It 218 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: was still excessive. It took extreme effort and focus, and 219 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: I had to have all right, I gotta get to 220 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: a hundred thirty. So if you can imagine what that 221 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: was like for somebody who's doing that at the time, 222 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: it's just more than excessive. It took effort. It's very 223 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: rare in law enforcement that we see anything like this. 224 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: You see anger, you see revenge, you see accidents. I 225 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: can't find anything to fit this category. It's it's more 226 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: than excessive, truly, So wonk us through the morning that 227 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: she's owned, give us the day, the time, wherever you 228 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: think is imperative, start and just tell us the story 229 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: to set the background for is the O. J. Simpson trial? 230 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: Is Nancy Carrigan getting hit in the knee? I believe 231 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: Forrest Gump was filmed, So that's what's going on in 232 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: So we don't have cell phones, we have pages. And 233 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: it's pre d n A, so I know that my 234 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: suspects probably not wearing gloves. Why would you. We wouldn't 235 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: know anything about DNA because we didn't until the O. J. 236 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: Simpson trial happened in that June of that year of 237 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: And this is before Google, so I know that whoever 238 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: did this had actually had been taught this or practice this. 239 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: They didn't just google it like we would do nowadays. 240 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: And then yes, I'm talking about the not the rope. 241 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: It would have not been something that you could have 242 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: just looked up on the Internet at all. You would 243 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: have had to have been taught it, which tells me 244 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: a lot if if we're going through the suspect or 245 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: who this could have been. And this is also and 246 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: I also need to familiarize myself with what Hutchinson Island 247 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: and what Savannah looked like at the time of At 248 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: that time, you have no reason to be at Hudgson that. 249 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: Now there's a hotel, so you could say that, oh, 250 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: if I turned, you know, right off the bridge, there's 251 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: a hotel there. At that time, there's a water tower 252 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: and and there's support authority and that's who it's owned by. 253 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: And so before math Quest, you know when we used 254 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: to download, you know, like pirates, swee sit download our 255 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: directions in the math Quest and follow them on our 256 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: on our little paper where we were going. You know, 257 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: this is before even that, So she would have had 258 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: to have known. The suspect would have had to have 259 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: known and been there and had directions at some point 260 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: in time. That comes into play when you're thinking about 261 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: a serial killer or somebody going up and down ninety 262 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: five or something like that. This is somebody would have 263 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: had to have been there before I had knowledge of it. 264 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: It's January. It's January in Georgia. We don't have all 265 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: four seasons. We have hot at haiades and then and 266 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: then we have a little bit of cold for like 267 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: ten days and that's about it. It was cold this morning. 268 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: She has found a break of daylight, so she was 269 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: there and as soon as the daylight came up, the 270 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: construction I don't want to say that they were construction workers. 271 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: They worked for the port and they were clearing land 272 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: in that area they discovered her. They called the police. 273 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: The police arrived on the scene, and I think everybody 274 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: was flabbergasted. They'd never seen something like that her age. 275 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: They knew immediately that how young she was, without even 276 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: knowing who she was. They knew the excessiveness of just 277 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: the brutality of what happened to her is more than 278 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: just a dumped body that we sometimes see. And then 279 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: the manner of which she was tied. So the detectives, 280 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: their first ask is to identify this person. They found 281 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: that she had a ring that looked like a classroom, 282 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: and they found with school it was at, and they 283 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: went to that school. They looked through the yearbook and 284 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: they found her mother's initials. When learning who was probably 285 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: at that time, they weren't sure, but who was probably 286 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: her mother, they looked at what church she went to, 287 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: and they went and talked to that pastor. That pastor 288 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: came out to the scene and identified her, knowing he'd 289 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: seeing her before and knew that who she was. And 290 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: so now they have a name, they have Tammy Renee Jackson. 291 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: They know that she just turned seventeen. So now they've 292 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: got to track her last hours of what happened. And 293 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: that's really right there, that's when the case gets really complicated. 294 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: And I think it's, you know, one of these cases 295 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: for all of us listening to you talk. So she's 296 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: doing things we all did. We all wanted to hang 297 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: out with friends, we all thought we were grown, we 298 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: all wanted to be alone with somebody we cared about. 299 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: So you know, as you are talking, I'm thinking, gosh, 300 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: when I was seventeen, I would have been the first 301 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: one on hutcheson Iswa. I would have been the first 302 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 1: one saying, y'all, we have found the mother load of 303 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: places to go and celebrate being seventeen, sixteen, eighteen. And 304 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: then when you start thinking about Savannah as this gorgeous 305 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: city full of history, I mean there's a reason it's 306 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: one of the tourist hotspots. I mean it's got everything. 307 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: It's got great music, it's got great food, it's got 308 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: great homes, it's got ghost stories, you know, and now 309 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: you've got this horrible event that you're having to walk through, 310 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: and the list of suspects. I mean, let's just start 311 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: your list. I mean you've got the boyfriend. I mean, 312 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: that's an obvious place to start. Yeah, you got we 313 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: got boyfriend, me and my me and my coworker. We 314 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: we we pulled out a good old fashioned lined paper 315 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: and when he started putting names on it, and he 316 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: by the end of the page, he goes, my goodness, 317 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: well this is this is a needle and a stack 318 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: of needles, and and that was the best way to 319 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: put this. It's more complex than any case I've ever worked, 320 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: because typically you have what two people that you might suspect. 321 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: Fortunately I am fortunate enough to have her diary because 322 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: now she personally is adding more people into it. And 323 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: then I've got what I know, what witnesses say, and 324 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: then I've got her family and what they say, and 325 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: then I've got her friends and what they say. And 326 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: by the end of the day, it's a chunky, soupy mess. 327 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: It's a suspect soup. And I don't know what else 328 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: to call it. I could probably talk about her last 329 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: week it'd probably taken two hours ago. Over all of it. Well, 330 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: we have the boyfriend. Was he in town out of town, 331 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: We'll start there. We'll start with her boyfriend. We know 332 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: she's got a boyfriend. He's in the military, and he's 333 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: not in town, but he is within driving distance. We 334 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: have a boyfriend before this boyfriend that she was seeing 335 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: when she got kicked out of her home. So that's 336 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: the different boyfriend. And I think what happened with her 337 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: family is her family noted that she was starting to 338 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: make her own choices. It went against what her parents set, 339 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: the guidelines and the rules. You know, as parents we 340 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: set those rules and guidelines to keep our children safe. 341 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: But as a child, you don't viewed as that. You 342 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: viewed as an oppression, I guess. But she was told 343 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: if you if you're gonna behave that way, you can't 344 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: do it here. So she moves on from that person 345 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: she's dating to another person. He calls up, this friend, 346 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: can you stay with Can can my girlfriend stay at 347 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: your house? So then this guy starts dating her. I 348 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: know from a friend's account that for a week prior 349 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: to her being found, she's at a birthday party. She 350 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: meet this other girl who's in the same exact scenario. 351 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: She's in she same age, just been kicked out, seeing 352 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: adult men living the life, thinking they've got it all 353 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: figured out. They go to a birthday party of friends. 354 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: And when we get into groups that we get into 355 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: it and can influence you in a good way or 356 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: influence you in a bad way, and this friend influenced 357 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 1: her in a bad way. They end up downtown. They 358 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,479 Speaker 1: end up on River Street, which if you've ever been 359 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: to River Street, it's a lot like New Orleans Bourbon Street. 360 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: It's you're there to drink. Some men find her there 361 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: that night, they feed her and her friend alcoholic beverages. 362 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: They take her back to where they live. Something happened 363 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: that night. I know that her friend is a witness 364 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: and knows that, and so we have to Those guys 365 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: are also in the suspect list because something happened and 366 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: it wasn't. It was consensual, and then it wasn't, and 367 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: we know that much. She calls her boyfriend. She says, 368 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: something happened with these guys. I don't feel car dorble 369 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: at this apartment complex anymore. Her her boyfriend's is no problem. 370 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: Let me call my other adult man you know in 371 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: the military to come pick you up. So here's another 372 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: man comes and picks her up. She goes and stays 373 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: with him. I know through her diary that she's not 374 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: having a great time at this person's house, and she's 375 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: writing about the boyfriend before the other boyfriend she so 376 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: she's still in contact with these people. And then there's 377 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: the two guys at the apartment complex that she went 378 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: to what Willie's and had the big call a cab 379 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: slushy vodka drink her last days. We know that she 380 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: was in me staying with a man because she was 381 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: uncomfortable about the other two men. She was staying with 382 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: a man at his home. She made a phone call 383 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: from witnesses say like again, you have to you can 384 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: only take them at face value. But there was two 385 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: younger much younger than her girls staying in this home 386 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: that she was staying at, and they told police that 387 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: they heard her say Kael, see you outside. And that 388 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: was the last phone call that she made. And we 389 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: have witnesses that we know are credible that saw her 390 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: walking down h Rude in Savannah from there, the last 391 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: place she's known as she's walking down the road in Savannash. 392 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: Her body is discovered the next morning. The police broadcast 393 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: what happened on the news, and that night generated a 394 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: call from another witness. He said he saw her walking 395 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: down the road, that she was stopped by two men 396 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: in a car, that it kind of didn't sit well 397 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: in his stomach whatsoever. He turned around, he said, hey, 398 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: are you okay? He said, it just bothered him and 399 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: he felt horrible that he didn't do anything about it. 400 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: But she said, yeah, I'm okay, like she knew them 401 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: or something, and so he turned back around. He said, 402 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: it still didn't sit well with him, so he didn't 403 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: back around, and her in the car are gone. And 404 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: then the next morning she's found on hutcheson island. And 405 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: that's the last thing that we know happened to her. 406 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: You and I have talked about that, because one thing 407 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: that I've told my daughter over and over and over, 408 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,719 Speaker 1: men know when other men are not on the up 409 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: and up. We don't know it. We just think he's cute, 410 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: he's got a nice smile. But your dad, your brother, 411 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: your cousins, your uncle's they're gonna know almost instantly if 412 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: this guy is up to no good. So for that man, 413 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: to get that feeling just seeing her. That's a pretty 414 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: significant red flag for me. It's a fantastic observation. I mean, truly, 415 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: if if that man that doesn't even know her, he's 416 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: obviously picking up on body language, facial expressions, he knows 417 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: exactly what they're doing. If he felt that's it to 418 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: his stomach that he turned around and asked her if 419 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: she was okay. I mean, we all drive by things 420 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 1: all the time, we don't stop. And he felt that 421 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: bad about it. His intuition was on point. I do 422 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: believe that that's the last people that saw her. I 423 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: don't think that anything happened between that car and her 424 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: being found That was not a good situation. Now, her diary, 425 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: that's pretty incredible because she's basically a witness from the 426 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: grave for you. She's able to talk directly to you 427 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: the best she can. That's kind of a money tree. 428 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: We don't always get there, no, and it's wonderful in 429 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: in even though you know it sometimes leaves you more 430 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: questions because you don't know what she's referencing when she's 431 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: saying certain things. But it's just a treasure trove of 432 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: information about her and about her psyche at the time. 433 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: Does she feel threatened, is she uncomfortable? Is she happy? 434 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: What's going on in her life? And she's I mean, 435 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: the biggest thing that I take from her diary is 436 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: how naive she is. She's not someone who is out 437 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: looking for this search, trying to get into this. A 438 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: lot of people would read this and say, oh, a 439 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 1: body dumping hutches, And I don't know she's a prostitute. 440 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: She knows exactly what she's doing. I don't think so. 441 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: And I know that from her her diaries. I know 442 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: for a fact that she's not. If she's doing that, 443 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: she doesn't know she's doing. She is so naive, and 444 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: I think her end game is to get married and 445 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: fall in love and have a white picket fence and 446 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: all's good in the world, rose colored glasses. I know 447 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: through her diary that she has absolutely no idea the 448 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: realm that she has found herself in with these men. 449 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: And to your point, even though she's no longer living 450 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: in her parents house, she calls her mom every day, 451 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: she goes to school every day, she still wants to 452 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: be around, you know, her friends and her sisters. So again, 453 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: it's not like she's living this life of this worldly 454 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: woman all about town. No, I think it's important that 455 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: anyone who's sees this case knows that in every way, 456 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: shape and form, she is a is a little girl. 457 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: She's a child. She is not some red light district 458 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: girl making money. She has no idea what that is about. 459 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: She is looking for love. What got her there? And 460 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: what how she met these people and got her in 461 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: this environment? I'm not sure, but I do know that 462 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: the extent of her naivety, I do know that she 463 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: had no idea what she was in And she is 464 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: doodling in her notebooks, little hearts and little houses and 465 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: everything I remember doing as a as a girl in 466 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: high school. I mean, she reminds me of me, like 467 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: she's just living being a girl. She went to school, 468 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: she was in the good crowd. She wasn't doing anything wrong. 469 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: And it goes to show you, like even now that 470 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: I'm a parent, it goes to show you how quick 471 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: something can turn from innocent too darkness really quick. And 472 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: I think we both remember exactly how we felt when 473 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: we were her age. She is a girl. She is 474 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: not mature. She's not out there working them, She's not 475 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: doing anything. She's not doing drugs. There's nothing in her 476 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: system because we do toxicologies of the autopsies. There's nothing 477 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: in her system. She's a child, and I think that's 478 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: very important in this case. Well, let's talk specifically about 479 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: the killers. We know they had a car, we know 480 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: they used rope, they had knowledge of whatever this sophisticated 481 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: not system is. She was fully clothed, so if you 482 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: look at you know, was it disorganized or organized? I 483 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: mean she was disfigured when she was run over, she 484 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: was tortured. She wasn't hidden, and that's disorganized and then organized. 485 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: They brought the weapons with them, they had a car, 486 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: they had sophistication of something you know a little different. 487 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you're not going to see somebody tied up 488 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: with rope every day. I mean, that's an unusual part 489 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: of this case that I think, again, you've done the 490 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,479 Speaker 1: right thing zero in on, because that alone is going 491 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: to narrow your suspect pool. I did a lot of 492 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: research on the BTK killer and a few other ones, 493 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: and we use different databases that show us crimes. I've 494 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: heard no middle ground. I've heard polar opposite of pains 495 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: on this case. I've heard that this is disorganized because 496 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: the reason I'm going to say disorganized is because perhaps 497 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: the rope was already in the car and they just 498 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: happened to have knowledge of tying it because of their 499 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: past that the tools that they used to stab her 500 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: with are perhaps things that were just in their car 501 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: and they just kind of stabbed with no purpose, just 502 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: stabbed and they thought she was dead and then left, 503 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: and then you've got somebody pulled her ups to that 504 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: that says this is very sophisticated. This is someone who 505 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: knew exactly where to stab her missing vital organs, knowing 506 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: exactly how long it would take to bleed out, intentionally 507 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: not putting her in the river that is ten ft 508 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: away from her. This is somebody who knew the nodding 509 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: like system and has probably done this before and we'll 510 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: do it again. This is someone who wanted her to 511 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: be found, like we find that a lot of serial 512 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: killers love to have their victims be found. The autopsy report, 513 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: the the corner wrote, this was a slow death that 514 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: she bled out but very slowly, that this was long, 515 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: it was not quick, and so is that intentional or 516 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: is that just happenstance? Just some he just stabbing you know, 517 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: at will and back to the suspects to like to 518 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: make the chunky suspect suit chunkier. I didn't even mention 519 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: that at the time. They're about a year after the 520 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: original detective. He found that there's some murderers in Florida 521 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: who tied up their victims and they very much honed 522 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: in on these two individuals in Florida, and the lead 523 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: detective on the case originally he still believes to this 524 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: day that it was them. I'm not going to rule 525 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: anyone out. We've discussed this like I won't take anything 526 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: off the table. You're all on the table and you're 527 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: all in my soup. Anyone who had any contact with 528 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: her live. Is that because you don't want to be 529 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: associated with somebody just murder? Or is that because he 530 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: murdered her? And so it gets cloudy, and so as 531 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: a cold case detective, I'm working on your narratives and 532 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: then I have to work it backwards as though I'm 533 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: working it originally. At the same time, I'm going with 534 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: what I have. And that's why when it gets this 535 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: chunky and deluded, I call the expertise of other people 536 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: because science and that's where you come in I really 537 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to push this any further and speculation 538 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: really if if it weren't for you. Well, that's nice 539 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: of you to say, but you know, I often tell people, 540 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: you know, when you see a lake, like maybe first 541 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,479 Speaker 1: thing in the morning, and it's just still, like the 542 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: water is not even moving, but you have no idea 543 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: what's going on underneath. You know, the catfish will doing 544 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: their thing, the bass, the turtles, you know, some snakes. 545 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: All this stuff is alive and happening just below the surface, 546 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: but you would never know it. That's how I sometimes 547 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: see these cold cases. You go to Savannah and you're 548 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: standing on River Street and you're looking across that river 549 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: of this beautiful piece of land. It just looks pristine, 550 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: happy and fun. You have no idea the underbelly, you 551 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: just don't, and just below the surface sometimes will blow 552 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: your mind. So now you're telling us it could be 553 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: serial killers working in tandem. It could be a police officer. 554 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: It could be a boyfriend. It could be another boyfriend. 555 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: It could be a married boyfriend. It could be somebody 556 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: in the service. It could be somebody that she knew 557 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: and trusted. It could be somebody she just met at 558 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: a bar. You've got a lot of work you gotta do, 559 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: and that's a lot of people you gotta weed through 560 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: again amongst all, this just perfect area because Savannah, for 561 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: all purposes, is a small town. Everybody kind of knows everybody. 562 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: They get a ton of tourism obviously, so there's some 563 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: strangers there. But you know, the toxicology is negative. She's 564 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: fully dressed. I mean, there's some things that just kind 565 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: of throw you on this case. You're not expecting necessarily here. 566 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: So you know, you've been connected with some pretty significant people. 567 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: So hopefully this case is at a different place for 568 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: you now, absolutely through you and what you've connected me to. 569 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: Because the department can only do what we have. I 570 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: mean we all states to deal with their state lab. 571 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 1: And their state lab is always underfunded, understaffed, I mean 572 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: just overworked. And so when you ask them, hey, I 573 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,280 Speaker 1: have a case from nine, they say yeah, no and 574 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 1: point to the door. It comes down to people pushing 575 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: it and be in the squeaky wheel and thank and 576 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: it's like Tammy has several squeaky wheels and we can 577 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: push this. And I told before I even spoke to 578 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: Tammy's family, I said, I will not whether I'm investigating 579 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: or still working in homicide or not, Like I will 580 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: never stop working this case because there's an answer. I mean, 581 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: I have my theories, and I know that I know 582 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: the science is caught up. I know that I hope 583 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: that the suspects are listening. I hope the hose suspect 584 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: comes across this being aired and they can hear me, 585 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 1: because I know that you know that I'm coming for you. 586 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: That there's so much physical evidence that I have from 587 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: this case because we did not have d NA. We 588 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: didn't do that. I think they did blood typing and 589 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,399 Speaker 1: then hair typing. Science Now, I mean, it's blown my mind. 590 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: Even the people that you've put me in touch with 591 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: over the past year, they've been able to take DNA 592 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: mixes from where there's seven mixes. They can go through 593 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: seven mixes. That's that's incredible. And so I know that 594 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 1: this will be solved, no doubt in my mind. And 595 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: fortunately with this case, I found all the physical evidence, 596 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 1: like we have everything. They weren't wearing gloves. They weren't. 597 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:54,800 Speaker 1: Why would you Why would you have gloves on? You 598 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,240 Speaker 1: would not have gloves on, you wouldn't. Only after O. J. Simpson, 599 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: you may think to put gloves on. I know that 600 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: it took you a considerable amount of time to tie 601 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: this knot. I know that it took you considerable amount 602 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: of time to stab her a thirty times. I know 603 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: that it did that that is excessive, and that you 604 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: touched her. You had to have tied her up, You 605 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: had to have touched her. You had to have worked 606 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: that long to even have stabbed her that long. So 607 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: whether you wanted her body to be found because you're 608 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: a six serial killer, or is revenge killing, or you're 609 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: mad because you're married, whatever, I will get you. Science 610 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: will get you. My bread and butter is interviews and interrogations, 611 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: and all I need is just a little bit. The 612 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: suspect is going to be done. I mean, there's no 613 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:54,760 Speaker 1: way unless they're dead. I'm coming for you a needle 614 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: in a stack of needles. They were counting on, no 615 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: new evidence, no new witnesses that they weren't counting on. 616 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: Detective Taras Smith, I'll tell you that the white hats 617 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: are coming, honey, and we're gonna end Zone seven the 618 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 1: way we always do. For a quote from somebody I've 619 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: worked with, and tonight it comes from Atlanta homicide detective 620 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: David Quinn, and David says the main thing to remember 621 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: when entering the world of criminal homicide investigations is faith. 622 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: Faith in your common sense. Every person that ever wondered 623 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: who killed the victim is a homicide detective. Detective Smith, 624 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,399 Speaker 1: thank you for your time. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this 625 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: is Zone seven.