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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. March is

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Speaker 1: Women's History months, and this year honoring women's contributions feels

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Speaker 1: less like a celebration and frankly, more like an act

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Speaker 1: of resistance. So today I want to introduce you to

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Speaker 1: someone who shapes the way that we all experience technology.

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Speaker 2: Even if you've never heard of her name.

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Speaker 1: Susan Carer. She designed the visual language of the early

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Speaker 1: Mac the icons, the fonts, the look and feel that

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Speaker 1: made personal computing something that people actually wanted to touch

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Speaker 1: and use. Back in twenty twenty one, I've joined my

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Speaker 1: friends Samantha and Annie over at the podcast Stuff Mom

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Speaker 1: Never told you to dig into Susan Care's legacy, where

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Speaker 1: she came from, what she built, and why it still

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Speaker 1: matters today.

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Speaker 3: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane

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Speaker 3: Never Told You production of iHeartRadio. Today, we're so thrilled

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Speaker 3: to be joining the virtual studios space by our friend

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Speaker 3: and colleague Bridget Todd.

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Speaker 4: Hello, Bridgete, Hello.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be back here with you all

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Speaker 1: who say we missed you, welcome back, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 2: I missed you too.

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Speaker 5: As always, though we know we know you're constantly going.

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Speaker 2: Well, I can always make room for my two favorite ladies.

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Speaker 3: Oh yes, we were discussing before this. We're very excited

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Speaker 3: for this topic, particularly because we have different levels of

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Speaker 3: experience when it comes to computers and technology, and in

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Speaker 3: this case, Samantha, you're saying you don't know Mac very well.

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Speaker 5: No, I am so not in the loop. I've never

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Speaker 5: used the Mac. I don't have an iPhone. I'm so

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Speaker 5: far away from those products, and I'm a little scared

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Speaker 5: of it because every time I've been on a friends,

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Speaker 5: I literally look at it and touch a button, something

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Speaker 5: goes around and I hate it.

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Speaker 2: Like back, I'm like, I'm sorry, You're like I launched

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Speaker 2: a missile. I don't know what.

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry.

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Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure I just started a war somewhere. I'm

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Speaker 5: so sorry.

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Speaker 4: I like that, do though, because my phone is the swipe.

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Speaker 3: And one time my friend handed me her phone and

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Speaker 3: was like, can you text this message?

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Speaker 4: And it was not a swipe and I stared at

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Speaker 4: it like this makes no sense to me. I cannot

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Speaker 4: figure this out.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, when it becomes like technology, when you're used to

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Speaker 5: one way and then you try and figure out something else,

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Speaker 5: I feel like it's a trap.

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Speaker 1: It's so true, it's so true. So I use an iPhone.

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Speaker 1: Most of my friends do not use iPhones. They use

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Speaker 1: like Google pixels. When I am handed at Google pixel,

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Speaker 1: it does not matter how many times I have.

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Speaker 2: Been schooled and how to do the most the.

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Speaker 1: Most basic stuff right, anything advanced, I have to ask that, wait,

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Speaker 1: is this is it that every time without right?

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Speaker 4: Which actually relates really well.

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Speaker 3: So what we're talking about today, So who did you

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Speaker 3: bring for us to discuss rigid?

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Speaker 2: So today we're discussing Susan Care.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to talk about her, mostly because so

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Speaker 1: it's Women's History months, and so I think it's a

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Speaker 1: good time to honor women who, you know, maybe don't

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Speaker 1: always get a lot of the loud public support.

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Speaker 2: And also the fact that.

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Speaker 1: Susan Care, despite being very much part of tech history,

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Speaker 1: she's still alive, She's still with us. I'm a big

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Speaker 1: believer in giving people their flowers while they're still alive

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Speaker 1: to smell them, and so not waiting until someone is

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Speaker 1: no longer here to be like.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I loved their work.

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Speaker 1: I loved their work, but celebrating their achievements and their

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Speaker 1: legacy while they're still here. She's very much still in tech,

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Speaker 1: making tech.

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Speaker 2: History as we speak. And I also just feel like

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Speaker 2: sometimes I come on the show.

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Speaker 1: And I bring topics that are a little negative, because

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Speaker 1: let's face it, sometimes being a woman on the inner.

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Speaker 2: Is not that fun. But there's also lots of fun, joyous, cool,

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Speaker 2: perky aspects of it as well.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and I never heard about her story, and I

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Speaker 3: loved it so much because I know we've talked before

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Speaker 3: on the show a lot about women in technology space

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Speaker 3: and now there is often that these negative aspects to

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Speaker 3: it are being intimidated off of it in various ways.

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Speaker 3: And as somebody who's really creative, like we're in my

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Speaker 3: cosplay closet as I call it in here, but like,

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Speaker 3: I love the application of how she got into technology.

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Speaker 4: I think it is such a great story.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, so let's get into it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, so, if you've ever spent any time around

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Speaker 1: not just Max but computers in general, you've probably encountered

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Speaker 1: Susan Care's work for her legacy.

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Speaker 2: So first and foremost, I should say if you have.

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Speaker 1: Not seen a picture of her, There's an iconic picture

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Speaker 1: of her with this like awesome eighties blown out curly

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Speaker 1: hair and a sweatshirt and these like amazing New Balance

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Speaker 1: sneakers with her sneakers kicked up on her desk at

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Speaker 1: her old school computer. Y'all please google a picture of her,

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Speaker 1: because it is iconic and truly just this one picture.

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Speaker 1: I saw it on the subreddit old school Cool. I

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Speaker 1: was like, who is this woman? I have to look

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Speaker 1: her up and find out everything about her. She's amazing.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's so effortlessly cool in a way that I

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Speaker 3: will never achieve.

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Speaker 4: Like. I saw it and I was like, wow.

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Speaker 5: I mean like I'm looking at it right now. I

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Speaker 5: have to google it, and I'm like, this is kind

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Speaker 5: of what people want to look like today. I saw

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Speaker 5: the outdated computers in the background, which, by the way,

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Speaker 5: I use those in elementary school, so don't start with

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Speaker 5: me by like, I'm like, no, where you are. She

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Speaker 5: is exactly what people are like, Oh we want to

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Speaker 5: look like this. This is such a great throwback, and

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Speaker 5: she looks so comfortable, so relaxed and ridiculously cool. I

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Speaker 5: want to be this cool.

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Speaker 2: Yes, she is an advertisement Forever Lane.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that normcore vibe, baggy sweatshirt and relaxed fit.

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Speaker 2: G she's rocking it.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, you could wear the outfit that she's wearing in

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Speaker 1: like nineteen eighty whatever this photo was taken.

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Speaker 2: You could wear today and people will be like, oh,

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Speaker 2: cool outfit.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's what I'm saying, Like this outfit looks so comfortable.

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Speaker 5: But again, yeah, she looks so freaking stylish that I'm like, uh,

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Speaker 5: I don't want to be back here in this fashion

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Speaker 5: because I did wear that once upon a time, and

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Speaker 5: that was when it was supposed to be cool, when

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Speaker 5: I was a young baby.

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Speaker 2: So I love it.

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Speaker 1: So Susan Carer she defigned a huge part of the

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Speaker 1: digital infrastructure of using a Mac computer back in the eighties.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm talking all of the fonts, all of

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Speaker 1: the typography, and all of the little icons. And so

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Speaker 1: if you ever remember the little happy Mac when you

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Speaker 1: put it up a computer, like the little computer with

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Speaker 1: a smiley face, that was Susan care the concept of

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Speaker 1: the icons for your computer sort of matching up with

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Speaker 1: the thing that you were going to do, even if

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Speaker 1: you don't use a Mac, even if you use a PC.

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Speaker 2: That's still a concept that we use today.

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Speaker 1: So she really was an early architect of how being

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Speaker 1: on line.

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Speaker 2: Sort of looked and felt.

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Speaker 1: And that also just sort of the concept of it,

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Speaker 1: sort of how we conceptually move around or we're using

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Speaker 1: a computer. And it's funny because I had also never

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Speaker 1: heard of her. I've been using a Mac for most

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Speaker 1: of my life. It was like the first computer that

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Speaker 1: we had in our home when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: like in what my parents called the computer.

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Speaker 2: Room, where like you could you could never.

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Speaker 1: Bring a snack or a drink or my dad would

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Speaker 1: kill you, was a Mac. And I had never even

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Speaker 1: heard of her, even though she had shaped such a

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Speaker 1: big part of my online experiences both as a child

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Speaker 1: and today.

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Speaker 5: So the whole story that I had about this like

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Speaker 5: this happy Mac and the one reason I kind of

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Speaker 5: know what that is now I've seen the other things.

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Speaker 5: I've seen the watch well icon before. I feel like

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Speaker 5: a lot of these are associated to me as something

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Speaker 5: bad is about to happen because I did something wrong.

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Speaker 5: Signs usually because the one episode that I remember with

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Speaker 5: in Sex and the City, Yeah you know, I'm talking

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Speaker 5: about where her Mac crashes and she gets a sad

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Speaker 5: mech and the dude keeps telling her you got the

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Speaker 5: sad Mac, sorry, you can't fix it, and this whole

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Speaker 5: conversation about the sad Mac, and I'm like, why does

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Speaker 5: it have to be a sad Meg the dead mac

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Speaker 5: because it's got the exes, all the eyes. He said

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Speaker 5: about how angry it looks. I was like, yeah, that

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Speaker 5: does not make me want to get a mac.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that episode probably scared a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: Also fun in fact, this is how deep my Sex

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Speaker 1: and the City knowledge goes. The guy who tells me

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Speaker 1: about at the computer store Asip Mandy from.

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Speaker 2: The Daily Show.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yes, yes, so I was like, oh, he's a comedian.

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Speaker 5: I love them when they bring it in comedians and

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Speaker 5: you really know but you always know their face.

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Speaker 2: Love it, love it, and you.

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Speaker 5: Gotta hop on board. This is what you're missing out

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Speaker 5: when you haven't seen Sex in the City.

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Speaker 2: Wait, and he's never seen it.

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Speaker 5: She's seen like two episodes.

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Speaker 4: I've seen one of the first episode, and that's it.

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Speaker 5: Really, Carol, girl.

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Speaker 1: What are you putting on in the background while you're

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Speaker 1: like doing something else?

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Speaker 2: Like, what are you putting on in the background when

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Speaker 2: you're doing the dish is come on.

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Speaker 4: I'm ready. I want to I want to embark on

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Speaker 4: this journey.

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Speaker 5: I'm just a little nervous, but I so bridget. When

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Speaker 5: we have our Sex in the City, we're gonna do

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Speaker 5: a watch and like kind of a live watching, live

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Speaker 5: viewing party.

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Speaker 1: You want to join us, yes, of course, And they're

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Speaker 1: getting ready to make another view of a movie, which

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Speaker 1: I mean, I have a love hit relationship with Sex

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Speaker 1: in the City, and yes, you look back and you're like, well,

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Speaker 1: this was problematic, or like oh this is not good,

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Speaker 1: but there's just something about it where I'm like.

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Speaker 2: I know, I'll probably watch it.

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Speaker 1: I know they're like, you'll take this problematic movie with a.

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Speaker 2: Bunch of lazy puns were taking it.

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Speaker 3: I know what I want.

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Speaker 5: I mean, like Sarah Jesina Parker's character Carrie the Mac

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Speaker 5: at the very beginning, like at all the things, the

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Speaker 5: fact that she carries it around like it's her treasure,

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Speaker 5: like she carries it as like she and the Mac

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Speaker 5: go hand in hand in the show.

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Speaker 1: Her work I feel is grounded around the Mac, like

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Speaker 1: you kept watching the episode towards the end, when she

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Speaker 1: moves to Paris, she leaves her Mac in her apartment,

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Speaker 1: so like Charlotte goes to her apartment, it's just like

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Speaker 1: her computer was just sitting there.

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Speaker 2: It's such a big deal.

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Speaker 1: And it's actually funny that you say this, because when

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Speaker 1: I was thinking through this episode, I didn't think about this.

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Speaker 2: But now I'm like, oh my god.

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Speaker 1: How many different times have Max been I'm thinking of

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Speaker 1: legally blonde when Belle Woods goes to get her orange

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Speaker 1: Mac and all of her stuffy law students are on

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Speaker 1: their black laptops and she's on the orange Mac.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 1: I guess I had never really thought about how many

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Speaker 1: times Max have been sort of part of popular culture.

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Speaker 5: Lends. It kind of goes into like being a designer piece.

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Speaker 4: Almost.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I could be wrong, but I'm pretty

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Speaker 3: sure you don't have to get permission to show Mac,

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Speaker 3: Like normally you have to get the companies and pay,

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Speaker 3: but they wanted people to think like, oh, this is

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Speaker 3: a cool stylis ubiquitous technology.

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Speaker 4: I think the only time you have to check is

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Speaker 4: if it's something like real real bad, like real bad beer.

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Speaker 2: For yeah, you're beating Amanda Death with it.

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Speaker 4: That's the only fat.

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Speaker 5: I mean, Like, I remember as I'm looking at some

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Speaker 5: of these things. I remember seeing the little bomb icon

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Speaker 5: as a part of the show as well. And again,

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Speaker 5: like I said, that to me, is like a big

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Speaker 5: warning sign. I mean, yeah, I don't know what the

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Speaker 5: bomb means, but the bomb means something bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the bomb. You see the bomb designed by Susan Care.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully you never have to see it, but if you,

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Speaker 1: if you put in a command that doesn't work and

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Speaker 1: it's like oh no, good bad, you know. And also,

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Speaker 1: I mean even even the different icons that you're describing

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Speaker 1: the sad Mac, the bomb. One of the things that

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Speaker 1: that Susan Care really architected was this idea of the

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Speaker 1: interface being super user friendly. So when you do something

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Speaker 1: that is bad, it is very obvious that it is bad.

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Speaker 1: It is a bomb, it is a sad face. It

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Speaker 1: could not be more clear that you have done something correct.

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Speaker 1: Or when something is good, you know, when you would

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Speaker 1: boot up a Mac, you would see a smiley face.

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Speaker 2: All of that was intentionally designed by Care to make.

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Speaker 1: People who you know, might have been using a computer

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Speaker 1: for the first time, who might have been a little

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Speaker 1: bit skintish about using a computer, helped them sort of

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Speaker 1: shepherd them through the experience in ways that are super

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Speaker 1: easy to understand, which I really appreciate as someone who,

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Speaker 1: even as someone who enjoys technip has to be a

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Speaker 1: little bit tech challenged, shall we say, do.

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Speaker 5: Right as I am. It definitely tells me when I'm

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Speaker 5: doing something wrong. Definitely, I'm like, oh, I'm just waiting, great,

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Speaker 5: and what's that happy face?

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Speaker 2: Exactly?

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Speaker 3: Yes, And those are things you'd take for granted, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: somebody had to think through that process and design those things,

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Speaker 3: especially when computers were so new and people were like,

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Speaker 3: what is this huge, bohemos thing that's expensive?

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Speaker 4: I don't want to wreck it by pressing their own

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Speaker 4: button exactly.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, what's funny is that, like some people

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Speaker 1: who are a bit younger might be thinking like, oh,

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Speaker 1: what's the big deal? But truly, like, keep in mind

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Speaker 1: that back then, in the early days of personal computers,

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Speaker 1: most people did not have a personal computer in their

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Speaker 1: home at that point, and so computers were these big, clunky,

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Speaker 1: boxy nightmares that were really inclined for mathematicians or engineers,

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Speaker 1: not just like your regular user. And so somebody had

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Speaker 1: to take the time to design ways of illustrating what

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Speaker 1: you were doing in ways that would be simple and

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Speaker 1: user friendly and not scary, not intimidating, because if you know,

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Speaker 1: the whole idea is that you want people to feel

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Speaker 1: the freedom of having a personal computer like in their house.

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Speaker 2: It has to feel like something they can really master themselves.

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Speaker 1: And so Susan Care's design I think was a big

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Speaker 1: part of why personal computing leader took on or took

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Speaker 1: off took on.

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Speaker 5: Right, her history is pretty interesting. Why don't you tell

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Speaker 5: us how she even got started into this industry?

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Speaker 2: So this is my favorite thing.

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Speaker 1: So her background was in art, right, So she was

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Speaker 1: a sculptor, she worked in visual arts, and so she

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Speaker 1: is not someone who has hard technical skills. She described

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Speaker 1: herself as completely non technical. And the reason that she

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Speaker 1: first got involved in graphic design in the first place

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Speaker 1: is because her mom taught her these skills that we,

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Speaker 1: I guess commonly associate with femininity, so like needle point

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Speaker 1: and embroidery, which luckily those two skills work in small grids.

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Speaker 1: So if you've ever done needle point, you know you're

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Speaker 1: moving a thread through like a tiny box. And so

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Speaker 1: when she was designing things on a computer for Apple,

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Speaker 1: it also was a small box.

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Speaker 2: And so if it wasn't for her mom teaching her these.

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Speaker 1: Highly kind of like domestic tasks we might not like

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Speaker 1: personal computing might be might have gone a completely different direction.

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Speaker 1: And so I just love that because it's such a

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Speaker 1: good reminder that you don't have to be a coder.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to be a hacker to make an

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Speaker 1: impression in tech or to have ownership over it. And

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Speaker 1: so I always like to remember that that if it

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Speaker 1: wasn't for her mom teaching her how to sew and

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Speaker 1: do needle point, truly, I might not be recording this

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Speaker 1: podcast on my MacBook Pro right now.

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Speaker 2: Things might look different.

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Speaker 3: When you're thinking about people you do associate with, particularly

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Speaker 3: mac but like technology and computers in general is often men,

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Speaker 3: and you do often have this assumption that, oh, there

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Speaker 3: must be like really technically minded and gotten a lot

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Speaker 3: of education in those fields, and like the names we

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Speaker 3: remember are them. But this is a huge part what

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Speaker 3: Susan Kaer did is a huge part of how the

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Speaker 3: technology we use, and particularly with Max, but in other things,

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Speaker 3: and it is what you like, a non traditional route

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Speaker 3: and this sort of feminized skill set in this kind

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Speaker 3: of traditionally masculinized or seen as a very masculine field

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Speaker 3: and I just love it.

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Speaker 4: I love it so much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes me. It's a good reminder for all

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Speaker 2: of us.

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Speaker 1: You know, I did an interview on my own podcast

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Speaker 1: with this really amazing historian and technologist, Claire Evans, and

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Speaker 1: she has this book all about the history of women

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Speaker 1: in computing, and I guess the thesis would be, you

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Speaker 1: know that we are often told that technology is a

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Speaker 1: boys club and that women and other marginalized people are

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Speaker 1: trying to like break break their way in. But actually

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Speaker 1: women have been at the start of computing since the beginning,

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Speaker 1: and so it's like rightfully our domain. We are not

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Speaker 1: trying to break in anywhere, like it is our landscape.

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Speaker 1: And that some of the reasons why women kind of

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Speaker 1: get pushed out of tech, both you know, in terms

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Speaker 1: of like careers, but also just in terms of like

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Speaker 1: who gets remembered, who doesn't, who goes overlooked. First of all,

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Speaker 1: just to be clear, a lot of it is just

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Speaker 1: good old fashioned sexism, like nothing, nothing special about that.

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Speaker 1: But then another aspect of it is exactly what you

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Speaker 1: were saying, is that a lot of times the contributions

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Speaker 1: that women have made to computers and technology are things

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Speaker 1: that are a little bit harder to preserve. And so

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Speaker 1: you know, if you if you make an actual computer

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Speaker 1: that can go in a museum, that's that's a solid

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Speaker 1: tangible thing. If you design a concept or you know,

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Speaker 1: do something cool on a message board or develop an

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Speaker 1: icon or you know, something graphic that is less tangible,

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Speaker 1: those things are harder to preserve and sort of more ephemeral.

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Speaker 2: And so a lot of that.

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Speaker 1: Work throughout the years has been associated with women and feminization,

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Speaker 1: this idea that like women are a lot of the

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Speaker 1: times the ones who are building the things that are

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Speaker 1: a little more difficult to hold on to, and thus

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Speaker 1: these contributions can really go overlooked unless we make intentional

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Speaker 1: efforts to preserve them, to highlight them, to amplify them,

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Speaker 1: all of that. So completely agree, completely agree.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So I mean here we are talking about it,

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Speaker 3: and because I'll take every opportunity to bring it up.

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Speaker 3: I do think too, like if you look at something

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Speaker 3: like fan fiction, the website AO three was one of

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Speaker 3: the biggest coding projects of its time, and it was

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Speaker 3: women who did it, but it doesn't get a lot

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Speaker 3: of respect because if women in marginalized people who did

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Speaker 3: it and it seemed as this kind of weird corner

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Speaker 3: of women fandom and not therefore not worth the respect

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Speaker 3: as something else more masculine.

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Speaker 1: Right, technology is nothing without people using it for something, right,

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Speaker 1: Without users and so and those people who were building

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Speaker 1: that there were architects of something important and like that,

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Speaker 1: we would not even see that as worthy of preservation

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Speaker 1: or like mentioning is our real prime And I think

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Speaker 1: we really do have to go back and look at

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Speaker 1: history and say, well, where are the times where because

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Speaker 1: this was associated with women or marginalized people just doing

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Speaker 1: something geeky on the internet, you know how women are,

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Speaker 1: whether it's fan fiction or you know, recipe blogs or

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Speaker 1: anything like that. Why do those things not deserve to

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Speaker 1: be remembered in the same way that some of the

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Speaker 1: other more obvious contributions to computing and technology in our

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Speaker 1: digital landscape. Like, I completely agree that we need to

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Speaker 1: have a whole scale sort of rethinking of what is

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Speaker 1: worthy of preservation, because I'm not down to just live

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Speaker 1: in a world where the stuff that we make that

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Speaker 1: marginalize people, that women make, is just not worthy of preservation,

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Speaker 1: no way, right, Yeah, absolutely not.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for letting me bring up fantic cholodim I

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Speaker 3: cannot help myself. But I also think it's a good

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Speaker 3: correlation to Susan Care's story, where there is this sort

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Speaker 3: of like creative, non technical thing that she was involved with,

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Speaker 3: and she was able to translate that into technology because

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Speaker 3: there was this need.

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Speaker 4: And I think also like.

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Speaker 3: Again having to kind of predict what people's concerns would

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Speaker 3: be and like predict what would suit those concerns and

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Speaker 3: be clear, like coming perhaps coming from a different background

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Speaker 3: actually helped her with that.

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Speaker 2: I think so. I love that point. I think so. So.

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Speaker 1: She said that when she first got the call to

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Speaker 1: design things for Apple, she was just like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what any of this is. I love this little detail.

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Speaker 1: She was in the middle of working on a life

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Speaker 1: sized sculpture of a hog. How does it tell you

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Speaker 1: all you to know about Care?

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Speaker 2: I feel like that really?

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Speaker 5: Oh I wanted to wonder finish it?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Oh that's a good question.

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Speaker 5: I want to know. I want to see this picture

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Speaker 5: of what she was working on. Did she get to

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Speaker 5: finish it?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 6: I need please please, I'll goo deep in hog right like,

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Speaker 6: she gets this call from Andy Hertzfield, who she had

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Speaker 6: gone to high school with, and He was a member

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Speaker 6: of the original Apple Macintosh development team during the eighties,

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Speaker 6: and he asked her to hand draw some icons and

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Speaker 6: bonds to help inspire what was going to be this

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Speaker 6: mac Interdace.

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Speaker 2: This was a completely new concept of her.

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Speaker 1: She's like, I had no idea what I was doing,

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Speaker 1: But luckily Andy had an idea because he knew that

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Speaker 1: she worked with design and graphics. He told her to

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Speaker 1: go out and buy the smallest, tiniest graph paper that

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Speaker 1: she could find and then use it to block out

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Speaker 1: thirty two by thirty two inch squares and fill them

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Speaker 1: with color to kind of come up with the designs

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Speaker 1: because what she would be designing would be a matrix

443
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 1: that was essentially a grid. So again back to that

444
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:08,160
Speaker 1: sort of needle point embroidery upbringing that she had, which

445
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 1: really helped her work in this grid function. Like truly

446
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,640
Speaker 1: probably could not have provided a better basis or education

447
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 1: for the work that she would.

448
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 2: Go on to be doing.

449
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 1: That she had no idea, you know that she would

450
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:24,640
Speaker 1: be so foundational in and luckily these skills really came

451
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:25,440
Speaker 1: to rescue.

452
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 2: She says.

453
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 1: Bitmap graphics are like mosaics and needle point and other

454
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 1: pseudo digital art forms, all of which I had practiced

455
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 1: before going to Apple.

456
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,439
Speaker 2: This is what she told somebody in an interview in

457
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:34,919
Speaker 2: two thousand.

458
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 1: So again, you'd never know what skill is going to

459
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,640
Speaker 1: apply later in your life. Like I'm sure when her

460
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: mom was teaching her needle point, she probably was like,

461
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 1: this is really fun and awesome. She probably was not

462
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 1: thinking and I will go on to revolutionize personal computing

463
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 1: because you have taught me how to do needle point, mom.

464
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I run on a Dungeons and Dragons campaign

465
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 3: and I use Python coding to uh run it. So

466
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 3: basically Python is a bunch of if then statements. But

467
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 3: I think you can you can take like a really creative,

468
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 3: non technical thing and you can construct it in a

469
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 3: way where you can like make it work in that sense,

470
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 3: because if you think about like conversation if X then

471
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 3: hy like you can I don't know, there's something I

472
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 3: find really interesting that you can take those things and

473
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 3: you can.

474
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 4: Experiment with them in that way.

475
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 3: You could take needle point and think about it in

476
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 3: this way of like coding, like I love that stuff.

477
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 1: Are there other things that you have learned that you

478
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 1: feel might help you when you're doing when you're coding

479
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 1: and Python like other other skills that you're like, oh,

480
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have thought that this would be something that

481
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 1: would help me think about Python, but actually has been helpful.

482
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 4: So something that helps me like use Python more or

483
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 4: just in general in.

484
00:22:58,040 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 2: The work that you do when you're building out these things.

485
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,360
Speaker 3: The reason I started doing that is because essentially it's

486
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 3: almost exactly like this. You have to when you're running

487
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 3: a game. You have to predict what people are going

488
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 3: to do, and that could be anything, right, Like, that

489
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 3: could be literally anything. And so it's like project management

490
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 3: where you have to analyze a person and then try

491
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 3: to make that work in a game system, right like

492
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,160
Speaker 3: in a kind of technical rule based game. So you've

493
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,120
Speaker 3: got this like really a logical chaotic person. Now I've

494
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 3: got to make that work in a way where I

495
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 3: can say, like if X, then why so that game

496
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 3: doesn't break? So I would say like reading people and

497
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:49,400
Speaker 3: project management because again a lot of interactions in life.

498
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 3: It's almost cold to think of it this way, but

499
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 3: you can see in a like technical sense of like person,

500
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 3: why needs this? Therefore these actions happen like you can

501
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 3: map out to a certain extent, people and their behavior

502
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 3: that's so fascinating.

503
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 5: It's a whole theoom. You have to do all these

504
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 5: little like hypothesism, this may happen, so you have to

505
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 5: problem solve ahead of time, which I know nothing about

506
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 5: dungeons and dragons. Just what she tells me.

507
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 4: It's wild.

508
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: I mean it completely, it's and I think if you

509
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 1: take that to its logical next step like in tech

510
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: workplaces and stuff. This is why I always say, if

511
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 1: you're someone who's listening and you're like, I want to

512
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 1: be more involved in tech. I want to work in

513
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 1: a tech space. You do not have to have tech

514
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: card skills to be someone who makes your living or

515
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: takes up a big footprint in tech. People need to

516
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: have people reading skills, problem solving skills, critical thinking skills.

517
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: Those are not, you know, necessarily what we think of

518
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: as like tech card skills, but these are all things

519
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: that go into you know, working but being able to

520
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: think in this way. And so I just love this

521
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: example because I think it really does illustrate how all

522
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,199
Speaker 1: of these different skills that aren't necessarily the tech the

523
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: hard skill or knowing Python or knowing you know, knowing

524
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: the code, they will help you when you're when you're

525
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: doing these kinds of things.

526
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 2: That's like a whole way of thinking. I love that example.

527
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 5: I mean, that's definitely a whole correlation between art, music,

528
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 5: and maths, and we know that that's been proven to

529
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 5: be linkage, and which is why would people talk about

530
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 5: losing arts and losing music is really detrimental for a

531
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 5: lot of kids learnings and just overall development. And this

532
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 5: is one of those more things because not only what

533
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 5: she's doing art, which she's an amazing at which I

534
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 5: saw some of the pieces that she's selling now I'm like, Wow,

535
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 5: it's gorgeous, but that it translated into yeah, these little

536
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 5: squares and dots and which also equals numbers and such.

537
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 5: This is me knowing all this stuff obviously, but the

538
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 5: fact that there's a greater picture of how it's all

539
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 5: correlated and it is linked.

540
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely.

541
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: And I mean that's why I obviously am such a

542
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: big advocate for young people going into stem and steam

543
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: fields and.

544
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 2: Get and getting that kind of education.

545
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 1: But I also think they're exactly right that you have

546
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: to have a well rounded approach. And so if we

547
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: lose the arts, if we lose music and the fundings

548
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: of these things, when people are like, oh, well, just

549
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: learn to code and get a job like that, It'll

550
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: be so much harder if these students are not well

551
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 1: rounded students who do not have a well rounded art education.

552
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: And so you know, I am an English major, right Like,

553
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: I did not have a hard skills background. So many

554
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: people who made it a big splash and tech had

555
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: arts degrees, humanity degrees, you know, studied music, studied literature,

556
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 1: and so I definitely am a big advocate for a

557
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: well rounded approach. I am not someone who was like, oh,

558
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 1: just learn to code, that'll solve all your problems, because

559
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 1: we do need all kinds of skills to have, you know,

560
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 1: young people who are really equipped to go into these fields.

561
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely.

562
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: And one of the things in this story, and Susan

563
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 3: Carrey's story is one of my favorite kind of random

564
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 3: I guess it's a good tell of when you grew

565
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 3: up in terms of technology when you're talking about your legacy,

566
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 3: because if you examine some of these symbols, like my

567
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 3: ex boyfriend used to argue so hard, like, we need

568
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 3: to redefine what these mean because they don't mean.

569
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 4: The same thing anymore. Right. One is the icon for

570
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 4: saving if you could talk about that.

571
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: Oh, it is such a good one.

572
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: So Susan Kara came up with that concept of the

573
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 1: icon being an association or an illustration of the thing

574
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: that you were doing. So like the pain bucket being

575
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: used to fill a surface with color, or like the

576
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: scissor is being used to be the cut function.

577
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: So when you think about the save function, right, So.

578
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: If you are a contemporary of me, and I think

579
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: Annie and Samantha, I think you got you all as well.

580
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: When you were saving something, you had to save it

581
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: on a floppy disc. You don't put a floppy disc

582
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 1: that's square with the metal thinging on it into your computer.

583
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: And not only that, you had to manually hit save

584
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: every I don't know, fifteen twenty minutes, otherwise it wouldn't save.

585
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: Now Here in twenty twenty one, you're probably working on

586
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: Google Docs or some other kind of interface.

587
00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: It saves automatically.

588
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: You don't have to put any kind of external thing

589
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: into your computer for to save this. The concept is

590
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: is so different, yet the little disc, it's still the

591
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: image for save. And so I almost wonder, like, I

592
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: don't know that young people know what that I like.

593
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 1: They're probably not as innately familiar with, like the floppy

594
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: disc as they are, Yet that is still the icon

595
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: for SAVE, even though you don't even really have to

596
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: say that's you used to, right, It's It's funny how

597
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: it's endured.

598
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 5: Oh my god, you just reminded me. We did a

599
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 5: time capsule I think in my eighth grade, sixth grade year,

600
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 5: and I think I put in a thing of floppy

601
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 5: disks like blank on really.

602
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, god, I have a lot of floppy disc memories.

603
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: I remember, Oh my god, if he's listening to this,

604
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: he's gonna kill me. My older brother he had to

605
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: do a class project and at the time we were fighting,

606
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: and I remember he had it on a floppy disk

607
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: that he left on the computer, and I swapped it

608
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: out with a blank one, So like, I put is

609
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: his in my backpack and put a blank one on

610
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: the computer.

611
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 2: So when he got to school he was like, wait,

612
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: where's my project? Oh that's me.

613
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 5: That's real, betty.

614
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: Really it was very petty. It was very petty. He's

615
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: listening to this.

616
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: I apologize, but you know you're deserved it.

617
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 5: But yet, yeah, thank you. But yeah, no, I just

618
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 5: remember them because I knew that it would be outdated

619
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 5: by that point.

620
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: I was right, you were right, you were you were

621
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: like prophetic here.

622
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 5: I know, right. I'm sure it costs a lot of money,

623
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 5: so I can't believe I did that.

624
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: Oh they used to be hella expensive. Wow, that was

625
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: like thirty dollars.

626
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm kind of remind like, why maybe I took one.

627
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 5: I just remember putting something to do with the floppy does.

628
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 5: So I'm gonna put this in here because it's gonna

629
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 5: make it dumb.

630
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 4: I love it.

631
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: It's like one of those things, you know how.

632
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: I think some comedian has this this line and his

633
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: stand up where when you're driving and you want someone

634
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: to roll down their window, even though most cars no

635
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: longer have the rank, that's still the motion that you

636
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: do to tell someone, even though you're like, well the

637
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: cars haven't really had this for a while, why am

638
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: I doing this?

639
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: That's still the enduring motion that you do.

640
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 5: But it keeps it. Yeah, just the things like she

641
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 5: created this in the eighties and it's still iconic and

642
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 5: it's still used today. And even though I may not

643
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 5: have known what a MAC.

644
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 3: Was, it was definitely universally used right well, And that's

645
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 3: funny to think about to you because there's some technologies

646
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 3: like the floppy disc that did just go by the wayside.

647
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 3: And that's one of my favorite things. Back to the

648
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 3: future too, when they thought the fax machine was going

649
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 3: to be the thing, but like the you have a

650
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 3: story and hear about like the copy machine, right.

651
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: So she was initially going to have the copy function

652
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: be a little illustration of a copy machine that you

653
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: would drag and drop your file that you wanted to

654
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: be duplicated onto the copier.

655
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: But copy machines are like.

656
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: Kind of complicated and like difficult to render at that size,

657
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: and so that didn't work. And then she got this

658
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: idea to try of a cat in a mirror, which

659
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: I feel like that really tells me a lot about

660
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: how she was thinking about these illustrations, Like that's a

661
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: really like using a cat and looking into a mirror

662
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: as a way to illustrate the copy functionality. I don't know,

663
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: I just want that to be a very interesting manifestation

664
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: of what the copy function does, you.

665
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 2: Know what I mean?

666
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 5: Maybe because it started with the C but I improved that.

667
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 5: I want that now.

668
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: I know.

669
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 4: I wish that was the case.

670
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: That's the direction we've gone, and I can just imagine.

671
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 3: I mean, that would be iconic if that is what

672
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: it was like today, that'd be on shirts. The cat,

673
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: the cat just staring into the mirror.

674
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, the coffee cat.

675
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 2: I think I can't get it.

676
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it. I'm so good.

677
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: That is a creative mind, like perhaps not the most

678
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: intuitive like that, Like I think that what she ended

679
00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: up going with was like much better.

680
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 2: But it's like I can sort of see her her logic.

681
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 2: I guess in what she was.

682
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: Going for with the with the copycat in the mirror.

683
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 4: Yes, it's so good.

684
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 5: I'm good with it. I would have approved that immediately.

685
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 3: So at the top, you said that Care's still alive today,

686
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 3: what's she up to?

687
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: So that's my favorite thing about this story is that

688
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: I feel so often when we're talking about somebody who

689
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: had a great impact, we're talking about them after they have,

690
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: you know, aged out of whatever they're doing, or they've

691
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: passed away. Not Care Carr is still very much alive

692
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: and very much involved in tech. So today she works

693
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: at Pinterest, where you are probably familiar if you use

694
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: Pinterest with some of her current designs. She designed the

695
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: image on Pinterest that is modeled after a pushpin that

696
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: symbolizes pinning an item. So again that kind.

697
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: Of idea of having the icon be kind.

698
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: Of a visualization of what the user is supposed to

699
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: be doing, and the spinning button that appears on Pinterest

700
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: when you refreshed. So very much still a person involved

701
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: in imagining what tech looks like today, the tech that

702
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: we use all the time. If you use Pinterest, she's

703
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: in your Her designs are in your pocket, you.

704
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 2: Know, which I just I just love.

705
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

706
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: You could also find her notebooks today. They're part of

707
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: the permanent collections at the New York and San Francisco

708
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: Modern Art Museum, which the one in New York is

709
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:32,719
Speaker 1: my favorite art museum on the planet.

710
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: It's so cool.

711
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: And one was included in the recent London Design Museum

712
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: exhibit called California Designing Freedom. So yeah, she still is this,

713
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: you know, representing this past and present and perhaps future

714
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: of design when it comes to tech, you know, still

715
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: out there, still shaping how we conceptualize the tech that

716
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: we use every day.

717
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 3: I love that so much, And I just realized that,

718
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 3: I guess if you look at movies or TV show

719
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 3: that's another application where it's not necessarily a real world application.

720
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 3: But if you were a designer and you're designing like

721
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 3: something sci fi, what will this look like in the future,

722
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 3: what does this like technology or button or whatever represent,

723
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 3: and then being able to communicate that to audiences. So, yeah,

724
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 3: there's a lot of applications here. Definitely, definitely. Did you say, Samantha,

725
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 3: she has art you can still get?

726
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, yes, she had a collection where some of

727
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: the and I don't know, Samantha, I don't know if

728
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: this is what you're referring to. But if you go

729
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: to tearprints dot com you can find her limited edition

730
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: prints and they include like the like little logos and

731
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: things that she designed.

732
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 2: You can get like the sad mac on a poster

733
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 2: or the time bomb on a T shirt.

734
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: Right, Like, some of her stuff is really nice, Like

735
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: I really wouldn't mind one of these blankets that has

736
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: all these different icons on it that she designed. And

737
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 1: what's funny is that when you go to tearprints dot

738
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: com they talk about how she was one of the

739
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: original originators of what we think of today as you know, emojis,

740
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: and so I hadn't even really thought about that that

741
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: her designs is why And I'm emoji obsessed. If you

742
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: ever text me get ready to get a million emojis?

743
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,919
Speaker 1: But yeah, just how how fundamental that is in terms

744
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: of how we think of, you know, representing things online.

745
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 3: Yes, and that's another great example of what we were

746
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 3: talking about earlier, where emojis filled a gap that was missing, right,

747
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 3: and we had to like kind of envision what are

748
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 3: these emotions?

749
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 4: What is this trying to convey? And like that is.

750
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 3: Another example of something that's kind of artistic but being

751
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 3: in this very kind of technical world.

752
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 4: Right.

753
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 5: Also, Annie, I don't know this is what I read earlier.

754
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 5: It has something that is relating to your superpower. You're

755
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 5: useless superpowers, which is including fonts or face are you

756
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 5: going to recognize? I wasn't sure which super emotions when

757
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 5: I was calling you out, which I'll be like, I

758
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 5: don't know, you could be lying to me just randomly

759
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 5: naming a font and I'm just believing you. But yeah,

760
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 5: because like Chicago was one of them. I know, that

761
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 5: was one of her first type is what it called.

762
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 5: And then the emojis, which was Cairo. So how you

763
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 5: say that c r Iro? But that's the blanket, right,

764
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 5: So she went even further into the world of computer stuff.

765
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 5: I'm so officially ill.

766
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 4: I'm amazing.

767
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 5: But the fact that she actually created typeface, I actually

768
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 5: created like fonts is an interesting thing because I've always

769
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 5: wondered who does this? And also, Annie, why do you

770
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 5: know these? Could you recognize what Chicago looks like? Chicago twelve?

771
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 5: I want to test you.

772
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 3: Now for the listeners who don't know this. I have

773
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 3: a very useless superpower. It's not as good anymore because

774
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 3: I used to edit video all the time, and I

775
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 3: actually would because a font does convey an emotion, all right,

776
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 3: It does help shape.

777
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 5: With every Why everybody loves comic SAMs right.

778
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:02,919
Speaker 4: Future, that's what everybody loves.

779
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 3: And so I can recognize a font like it is

780
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 3: one of my most annoying.

781
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 4: You get a little alcohol in me and I'll be like.

782
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 3: There's Futura, there's Nancy's chalkboard. I apologize to anyone I've

783
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 3: ever done that too.

784
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:18,919
Speaker 2: Do you have a favorite font?

785
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 3: That's a good question because I used to really love

786
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 3: I loved the ones that looked like people's handwriting. So

787
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 3: I did really like Marker felt one with a very

788
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 3: little bit of dropshadow, very little, or like Nancy's I

789
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 3: like Nancy's chock word, but I don't know if I

790
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 3: would say those are my favorite, but they were ones

791
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 3: I'd turned to a lot because they I wanted those

792
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 3: videos to feel very approachable, which is actually the stuff

793
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 3: I've never told you videos. So they're on YouTube and

794
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 3: can go look at all my chalk and marker based fonts.

795
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: I need to do this right away. I also love

796
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: a good font you know.

797
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: Like I'm not even someone who was technical in this way,

798
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: but like good design is really important, like bad design.

799
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many times I've been on

800
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: like a restaurant website page where I'm like.

801
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 2: This is so infuriating. The fun is terrible, and this

802
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 2: user experience is terrible. I don't even want to go

803
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 2: to this restaurant anymore.

804
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: Like good like good design can really open some doors,

805
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: and bad design can really close them.

806
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 2: I'll just put it that.

807
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 5: Way, right, You are completely correct, But no, I just

808
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 5: like that. I just was like, oh, look she did

809
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 5: this and this, and then that blanket. I was like, oh,

810
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 5: I love this blanket just has all those essentially emojis

811
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 5: that's all over her blankets that she designed. I was like,

812
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 5: that is so cool. And then I thought about the

813
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 5: fact that and he loves talking about how she has

814
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 5: the superpower. So you're welcome for telling everyone your superpower.

815
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 3: It's a good power, right, It's literally my most useless one,

816
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 3: but also the safest one.

817
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 4: I'm glad you are.

818
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 2: Wait, okay, finally.

819
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 5: They got killed killed. That conversation real good, you know, awesome.

820
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 3: Well, when it comes to to Care and these icons

821
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 3: she's going to have, like her legacy is a lasting legacy,

822
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 3: it is a lasting legacy.

823
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: And I guess, yeah, as I said, I think it's

824
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,240
Speaker 1: important to highlight. You know, what she did was important.

825
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 1: You know, I couldn't tell you whether or not personal

826
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 1: computing would be the same if not for Care, But

827
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: I know that she had an impact, and I think

828
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: it's important to recognize. And I also just think it's

829
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: important to again underscore that she did all of this

830
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: as a non technical person. She told the Smithsonian aboutter

831
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: time at Apple. I loved working on that project. I

832
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: always felt so lucky for the opportunity to be a

833
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: non technical person and a software group.

834
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 2: I was all by.

835
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 1: Being able to collaborate with such creative, capable and dedicative engineers.

836
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think it's really awesome that she was

837
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: holding it down on this group of engineers as a

838
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: non technical woman doing her thing and really building out

839
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: a lasting, enduring legacy in a field where things don't

840
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: often last and don't often endure in this way.

841
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 2: So I think it's really important to recognize her work.

842
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 3: I do too, and I think, you know, even looking

843
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,919
Speaker 3: back at the time when she was doing this and yeah,

844
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 3: being a woman in this non technical space and I

845
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 3: don't know, creating these things that have lasted, it's just

846
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,240
Speaker 3: very very inspiring, and I'm glad.

847
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 4: I'm glad that you brought this story to our attention.

848
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 4: Bridget Thank you.

849
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 2: For giving me the space to nerd out on this.

850
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: Honestly, it truly is because I saw that badass picture

851
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: of her on old.

852
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 2: School Cool on Reddit. So whoever put that on Reddit,

853
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:39,399
Speaker 2: thank you.

854
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: Yes, listeners, please, if you have not seen that picture,

855
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: look it up.

856
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: She is amazing.

857
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,720
Speaker 4: Yes, Yes, it's so cool.

858
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 5: So goals I had goals, that would be one of them.

859
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, her picture. Yes, you can achieve this, Samantha. Now

860
00:40:59,360 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 4: I don't think so.

861
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 5: I would fall out, like there's so many levels of

862
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 5: col that I couldn't hit and one of them would

863
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 5: be actually sitting like that.

864
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I worried for her back. Help she's really lean back.

865
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 4: Well, thanks is always for being here, Bridget. Where can

866
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 4: the listeners find you?

867
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: Well, if you want more nerding out on all things

868
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: tech and the Internet and things of that nature, you

869
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 1: can definitely check out my podcast on iHeartRadio called there

870
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 1: Are No Girls on the Internet.

871
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,879
Speaker 2: We would love to have you there, and you can

872
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 2: follow me on social media.

873
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: I'm at Bridget Marie on Twitter and at Bridget Marie

874
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 1: in DC on Instagram.

875
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 3: Yes, so go check out that podcast. Follow Bridget if

876
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 3: you don't already, listeners, and we can't wait to have

877
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 3: you again, Bridget.

878
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: Oh, I can't wait. I cannot wait talk sex in

879
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: the city, I.

880
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 3: Bet oh, And just like that, And.

881
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 2: You don't get that joke because you don't want to

882
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 2: one to know.

883
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 4: I don't want to be left out of the conversation.

884
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 5: Help, but wonder, I couldn't help, but wonder?

885
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 3: All right, all right to watch it. I'm just a

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00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 3: little nervous, but I'm bound to watch it. I guess, Yes,

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00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 3: it will be.

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00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 4: It will be.

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00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 3: And if you'd like to contact us listeners, you can

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00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 3: or emails stuff Media mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.

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00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram at Stuff I've Never

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00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 3: Told You or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks

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00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 3: as always to our super producer Christina. Thank you, Christina,

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00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 3: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You.

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00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 3: Protection of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, it's It's

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00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 3: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

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00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 3: to your favorite show