1
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:08,280
Speaker 1: In nine six, the movie Matilda, an adaptation of Overall

2
00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,880
Speaker 1: Dall's children's book, was released in theaters across the US.

3
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,400
Speaker 1: A summer vacation crept to an end. Families packed their

4
00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,760
Speaker 1: minivans and headed to cinemas to escape the heat and

5
00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,759
Speaker 1: watched the story of the title character. Matilda, was a

6
00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,360
Speaker 1: smart young girl with telekinetic powers who wanted to escape

7
00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,440
Speaker 1: her home life and rotten family by going to school,

8
00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,320
Speaker 1: where her neglectful parents refused to enroll her. In the story,

9
00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,560
Speaker 1: when Matilda finally did get to go to school, it

10
00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,120
Speaker 1: was nothing like she expected. She loved learning, her new

11
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 1: friends and her teacher, but Matilda found herself in a

12
00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,080
Speaker 1: school run by the hard nosed, disciplinarian and larger than

13
00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,760
Speaker 1: life principal, Agatha trunch Bull. In Miss trunch Bull's school,

14
00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,880
Speaker 1: breaking the rules was met with an array of bizarre punishments.

15
00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,240
Speaker 1: For some students, like Matilda, being the principal got them

16
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,520
Speaker 1: time locked inside the Chokey, a cramped, dark closet with

17
00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,640
Speaker 1: rusty nails and glass shards poking in from the walls.

18
00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,560
Speaker 1: But in the movie's final act, Matilda uses her superpowers

19
00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,120
Speaker 1: to drive the villain, Miss trunch bowl out of the school.

20
00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,120
Speaker 1: After that, she gets adopted by her teacher and never

21
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,160
Speaker 1: has to see her horrible parents ever. Again. It's a

22
00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,520
Speaker 1: kid's movie. There's a happy ending. In that same month,

23
00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,800
Speaker 1: August of ninety six, a real life boy was also

24
00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,039
Speaker 1: escaping a tough home life by joining a new school.

25
00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 1: Mihailo ko Fell was on his way from Vergo Bina

26
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,440
Speaker 1: Bistra in Ukraine to Miami, Florida, where he was about

27
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,000
Speaker 1: to be a student at Holy Cross Academy and a

28
00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,560
Speaker 1: trainee monk at its monastery. And Mike's experience would be

29
00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,280
Speaker 1: weirdly similar to the one families were watching on screens

30
00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,080
Speaker 1: across the country. For him, school would be different than

31
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,840
Speaker 1: he imagined and full of strict rules, heart structure and disciplinarian.

32
00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,280
Speaker 1: He and his friends would even spend time locked away

33
00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:08,080
Speaker 1: in a closet as punishment. But that's where the similarities stop.

34
00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,840
Speaker 1: Mike's story doesn't tie up neatly with a happy little ending. No,

35
00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:25,160
Speaker 1: his story would end in murder. I'm Paula Barrows and

36
00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:35,079
Speaker 1: I'm Melanie Bartley, and this is sacred scandal. He did

37
00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,280
Speaker 1: commit a murder, and it's horrible, But there was something

38
00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,160
Speaker 1: underneath the surface. It was not just black and white.

39
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,519
Speaker 1: It wasn't just him killing a nune. It was something

40
00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:51,200
Speaker 1: more in there. And I believe that well wasn't right

41
00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,800
Speaker 1: that everybody just to make Michaelo the only person who's

42
00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,519
Speaker 1: responsible for this, But I believe that it wasn't use

43
00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,760
Speaker 1: because he was my sister initially. Has has to be

44
00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:31,080
Speaker 1: something else. In this episode, we pick up Mike's story

45
00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,640
Speaker 1: in August as he arrives in Miami to start training

46
00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,880
Speaker 1: as a monk and become a student in Holy Cross Academy.

47
00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,480
Speaker 1: It's from here that everything started to change again for him,

48
00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,640
Speaker 1: and Mike says things started happening at school and in

49
00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,880
Speaker 1: the monastery that set him on a course to murder

50
00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,000
Speaker 1: Sister Michelle Lewis. We will also be hearing from some

51
00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,120
Speaker 1: of the people who are closest to Mike during his

52
00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,200
Speaker 1: time at Holy Cross, and their words paint a more

53
00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,800
Speaker 1: complete picture of his daily life. But let's get started.

54
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,040
Speaker 1: In those early days of Mike's arrival in Miami, just

55
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,320
Speaker 1: to school was getting ready to begin. I remember the

56
00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,440
Speaker 1: very first thing I remember stepping out of the airplane,

57
00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,080
Speaker 1: American soil in in in Miami in the summer was

58
00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,760
Speaker 1: means of human and heart, and then we got to

59
00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,480
Speaker 1: the proper gift of all the course, I thought the

60
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,359
Speaker 1: school like one giant castle. So I remember just being

61
00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,160
Speaker 1: really nervous, okay, beforing to school in all the course,

62
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,200
Speaker 1: I didn't speak English. They made, of course really really

63
00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:45,840
Speaker 1: more difficult. In Ukraine, Mike's father went told him that

64
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,960
Speaker 1: he and the other monastic candidate, Petro, would have their

65
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,600
Speaker 1: own private tutor to help them learn English, but when

66
00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,280
Speaker 1: they showed up for school the first day, that wasn't

67
00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,960
Speaker 1: the case. The plan was for them to sit in

68
00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,840
Speaker 1: classes with the youngest kids in the school and learn

69
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 1: English in the same way that they were learning to

70
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,800
Speaker 1: read and write. They already stood out in the school

71
00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,880
Speaker 1: as foreigners and were totally different uniforms. But now that

72
00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,560
Speaker 1: also be in classrooms with kids who are almost ten

73
00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,840
Speaker 1: years younger than they were. So basically we had to

74
00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:24,760
Speaker 1: attend first class with uh, with first grades there was English.

75
00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,920
Speaker 1: So you that you were saying that was the first grades,

76
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,320
Speaker 1: being so embarrassed because they had to repeat the basic

77
00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,359
Speaker 1: worlds since it's like cats, dogs, you know, and so

78
00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,080
Speaker 1: that he was just learning and how did that? How

79
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,760
Speaker 1: did that make you feel? You know, the first year

80
00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,919
Speaker 1: was really difficult and I was still still had to

81
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,880
Speaker 1: adjust to the culture that the students, the features I

82
00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,320
Speaker 1: don't know, of course, I didn't know anybody. It was

83
00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:57,840
Speaker 1: quite hard times at the beginning. In those earliest days

84
00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,240
Speaker 1: at holy Cross, Mike struggled. There was so much to

85
00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,400
Speaker 1: learn so quickly in order to get caught up with

86
00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,080
Speaker 1: the students his own age. On top of that school

87
00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,719
Speaker 1: was different than in Ukraine. He had to move from

88
00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,640
Speaker 1: class to class during the day instead of staying in

89
00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,520
Speaker 1: one room, and navigating his new surroundings without being able

90
00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,000
Speaker 1: to speak the language was a challenge. The initial excitement

91
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,599
Speaker 1: of getting to move to America and live his dream

92
00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,919
Speaker 1: of being a monk was starting to wear off. I

93
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,240
Speaker 1: was still trying to adjust and I'm from small town

94
00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,480
Speaker 1: and being the big citing and just really fell out,

95
00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,000
Speaker 1: you know. Of course fell like a friend Pillow place where.

96
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,280
Speaker 1: And it wasn't just me who has a hard time

97
00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,440
Speaker 1: to address. Of course, Patrol also going through hard times.

98
00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,640
Speaker 1: And I remember, like I feel like three months we

99
00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:54,360
Speaker 1: really really hidden there Patrol he wanted to leave. At night,

100
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,720
Speaker 1: Mike says he and Petra would stay up in their

101
00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,919
Speaker 1: shared bedroom and talk about whether they should stay in

102
00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,200
Speaker 1: Florida or leave. After only about three months in Miami,

103
00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,680
Speaker 1: the pair made a decision they would go together. The

104
00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,440
Speaker 1: father went and tell them they were giving up and

105
00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,480
Speaker 1: we're ready to go home. You're talking to your father

106
00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:18,160
Speaker 1: went about this and you're ready to go back. I

107
00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:23,000
Speaker 1: remember he gave me this letter from my parents, and

108
00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,000
Speaker 1: my parents said that my grandfather died, and you know

109
00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,160
Speaker 1: everybody from my accounts, you know, saying saying hello, they're

110
00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,840
Speaker 1: proud of me. So I remember just crying. I remember crying.

111
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, learning that my grandfather died, and just

112
00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:43,440
Speaker 1: so me and Patrol decided to continue our studies. So basically,

113
00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,640
Speaker 1: you told father when you wanted to go back to Ukraine,

114
00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,920
Speaker 1: and he showed you this letter from your parents saying

115
00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:49,720
Speaker 1: that they were so proud of you for being in

116
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,160
Speaker 1: Miami and doing the monastery thing. Wow, in your mind,

117
00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,600
Speaker 1: did you I feel like going back to Ukraine was

118
00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,680
Speaker 1: worse than staying where you were and it's time. Yes,

119
00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:02,600
Speaker 1: I didn't want to go by that, I really didn't

120
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,240
Speaker 1: didn't want to go. I've still tetd a lot of

121
00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,320
Speaker 1: things about being back in Ukraine. Of course, you know

122
00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,680
Speaker 1: of course, Uh, I started to learn learn more English

123
00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:18,840
Speaker 1: and got a little bit easier, but the difficult, difficult

124
00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,160
Speaker 1: time I remember just always in a more just like

125
00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,320
Speaker 1: going to school, just being really really nervous about it.

126
00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,680
Speaker 1: After reading that letter, the boys committed to staying at

127
00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,680
Speaker 1: Holy Cross. In the following months, Mike's English improved and

128
00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,120
Speaker 1: his nerves about going to school calm down. Over the years,

129
00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,239
Speaker 1: more boys like Mike and Petro would arrive at Holy Cross,

130
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,840
Speaker 1: some would stay, and others would quit the monastery and

131
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,120
Speaker 1: move back to Ukraine. In Mike's third year at Holy Cross,

132
00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,560
Speaker 1: Elia Hertzock arrived in Miami after spending two years at

133
00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,960
Speaker 1: the training center in Ukraine. When candidates like Mike and

134
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,800
Speaker 1: Elia signed up to become monks, they knew they would

135
00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,240
Speaker 1: be on a strict schedule of prayer, work and study.

136
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,760
Speaker 1: It's how they lived in the candidate's house before coming

137
00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,640
Speaker 1: to the United States, and as Mike told us, he

138
00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,920
Speaker 1: assumed the priests would be living that way too, but

139
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,400
Speaker 1: he says they rarely ever came to morning or evening

140
00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,120
Speaker 1: prayers and only showed up for Sunday services when Holy

141
00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,800
Speaker 1: Cross parents and other people from the community were involved,

142
00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,280
Speaker 1: and when Elia arrived. He also noticed that religious life

143
00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,400
Speaker 1: at holy Cross was not meeting the same standards as

144
00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,439
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. We didn't have to confess like we used

145
00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,840
Speaker 1: to do here in Ukraine, at least one a month

146
00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:42,160
Speaker 1: or something like this, and there it was enough one

147
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,680
Speaker 1: in a year. So it was unusual because here we

148
00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:51,640
Speaker 1: we really felt that that we are preparing to be

149
00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,160
Speaker 1: on monk and when we came there, we paid every day,

150
00:09:55,160 --> 00:10:00,320
Speaker 1: but nothing more. It was school Holycross Academy, and we

151
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:05,320
Speaker 1: didn't feel like growing up in the religious way. Yeah

152
00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,800
Speaker 1: you don't. You didn't feel like the monastic program was

153
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:13,280
Speaker 1: like serious enough. It wasn't increasing in any way. I

154
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,240
Speaker 1: would say it rather stopped. For me. It was a

155
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:24,520
Speaker 1: little bit surprising. Aside from the relaxed attitude on monastic life,

156
00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:26,680
Speaker 1: Mike and Elias said there were other things going on

157
00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:31,600
Speaker 1: inside the monastery that in hindsight felt have sorts. Neither

158
00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,640
Speaker 1: Mike or Elia could call home regularly because their parents

159
00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,640
Speaker 1: didn't have a phone, and in five years Mike says

160
00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:40,360
Speaker 1: he had the chance to speak with his mom and

161
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:45,120
Speaker 1: dad maybe twice. But the monastic candidates were able to

162
00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,800
Speaker 1: send their families letters which they wrote in Ukrainian those letters,

163
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,400
Speaker 1: though first had to be given to Father, went in

164
00:10:52,520 --> 00:11:01,000
Speaker 1: unsealed envelopes. What's from Ukraine or to Ukraine. But it's

165
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,559
Speaker 1: important to remember that these monks were still just teenage boys,

166
00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:06,960
Speaker 1: and that the soft Father went as the authority of

167
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,040
Speaker 1: the monastery. So Mike and Elias had they never questioned

168
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,880
Speaker 1: this practice. They were just kids who were doing as

169
00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,680
Speaker 1: they were told, and they wrote home to say that

170
00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,640
Speaker 1: things were going just fine at Holy Cross. I don't

171
00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,760
Speaker 1: know if you went to every Everything just tell us

172
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,920
Speaker 1: to belave the less offense. So they discourage people from

173
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,040
Speaker 1: writing anything bed or just wherever. Most of the time

174
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,800
Speaker 1: I think I try not to write anything negative, ord

175
00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,839
Speaker 1: you know something. Even though so much attention was paid

176
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,320
Speaker 1: to their mail, Elias says that over time he felt

177
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,680
Speaker 1: ignored by the priests altogether. In Miami, he says all

178
00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,880
Speaker 1: of their focus seemed to be on Mike and Petro,

179
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,840
Speaker 1: the two original candidates. Each of them served as a

180
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:54,360
Speaker 1: priest assistant, Mike with Father Damien and Petro with Father went.

181
00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,920
Speaker 1: Mike and Petro were separated in other ways too. When

182
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,000
Speaker 1: New Boys started a having in Miami, Mike told us

183
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,880
Speaker 1: that he and Petro were moved out of the room

184
00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,000
Speaker 1: shared by all the monks and given their own private bedrooms.

185
00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:09,800
Speaker 1: Mike Cadis space in the same house as the other

186
00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:14,560
Speaker 1: candidates and Father Damien, but Petro moved into another building

187
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,439
Speaker 1: where only he and Father Went lived. So but there

188
00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,240
Speaker 1: was the most most of the time he was right

189
00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,400
Speaker 1: hand of Father Went, so he was helping him is everything.

190
00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,320
Speaker 1: Both Mike and Elia were growing unhappy with the way

191
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,040
Speaker 1: things were going at holy Cross, and they formed a

192
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,720
Speaker 1: friendship over these feelings of doubt. For Ilia, the time

193
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,520
Speaker 1: he spent between the training center in Ukraine and holy

194
00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,600
Speaker 1: Cross made him realize that he wasn't ready for life

195
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,120
Speaker 1: as a monk. I decided by myself to become a

196
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,600
Speaker 1: priest or month, and then in three years I decided

197
00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:50,960
Speaker 1: to finish with this. It just it was natually. It

198
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:55,040
Speaker 1: was because i've I went to school, to fel Cross Academy,

199
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,480
Speaker 1: and and there I decided that I want to have

200
00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,960
Speaker 1: a friends, to have a girlfriend. I understood that I'm

201
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,160
Speaker 1: not ready to finish with this. Elia would spend weeks

202
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,400
Speaker 1: thinking about this decision. He told us he would walk

203
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,760
Speaker 1: to Father One's door to tell the priest he was

204
00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:16,520
Speaker 1: ready to leave. Then before knocking, he'd second guess himself

205
00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,480
Speaker 1: and walk away. After that, a few days later, he

206
00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,520
Speaker 1: would go back and leave again. He repeated that cycle

207
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,800
Speaker 1: over and over until he finally worked up the courage

208
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,360
Speaker 1: to tell the priest that he was done, he'd finished

209
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,679
Speaker 1: out the final month of the school year and go

210
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,120
Speaker 1: back to Ukraine. At the same time, Elia couldn't quite

211
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,400
Speaker 1: put his finger on why Mike was having issues at

212
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,080
Speaker 1: holy Cross, but he knew that because of what his

213
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 1: family life was like in Ukraine. He was also too

214
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,560
Speaker 1: afraid to tell the priests about his feelings. It was

215
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:54,560
Speaker 1: on this noted was like obvious, but but he was

216
00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:59,000
Speaker 1: afraid that he they would send him back to Kaine immediately.

217
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,720
Speaker 1: He he didn't want to go back. We were getting

218
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,040
Speaker 1: a lot some some days. It was like every every evening,

219
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,920
Speaker 1: and I don't remember exactly in in in what way

220
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:17,720
Speaker 1: it was stated, but I understood that he's not happy.

221
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,640
Speaker 1: But it was never like, come on, let's run away

222
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,360
Speaker 1: or something like this. Mike says that he did want

223
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,600
Speaker 1: to get away, he just didn't know how, and his

224
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,480
Speaker 1: sadness came from something that he was too ashamed to

225
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,720
Speaker 1: tell Eliah. It's something he was too ashamed to talk

226
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:39,280
Speaker 1: about with anyone back then. That's coming up after a break.

227
00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:04,360
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Sacred Scandal. And can I ask you

228
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,200
Speaker 1: when you were on holy Cross? What did they tell

229
00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:12,400
Speaker 1: you about interacting with other students? Told us when we're

230
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,280
Speaker 1: we're taking classes with all the students, never you know,

231
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,160
Speaker 1: talk to them or interact with them, you know, because

232
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,320
Speaker 1: you're supposed to be training to be monst Yeah, we

233
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,320
Speaker 1: really were not supposed to talk to them. As a

234
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,920
Speaker 1: student at holy Cross Academy. This rule that Mike is

235
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,280
Speaker 1: talking about is also something that I remember a students,

236
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:32,920
Speaker 1: We were told that we weren't supposed to talk to

237
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,680
Speaker 1: the monastic candidates because it could influence them in worldly ways.

238
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 1: And did you want to talk to them? Yeah, of course,

239
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,240
Speaker 1: and of course I did. You know I did, But

240
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,600
Speaker 1: I felt like you always have to loop over your

241
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,800
Speaker 1: shoulder when you did. So if I got caught talking

242
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,160
Speaker 1: to a monastic candidate, maybe the worst that would happen

243
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,840
Speaker 1: was maybe get a demerit or I don't know, a

244
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,840
Speaker 1: Saturday detention. But you never saw the monastic candidates and

245
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,120
Speaker 1: detention so back then, and I just assumed they were

246
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,000
Speaker 1: never in any trouble twenty years ago. I never knew

247
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,200
Speaker 1: or even thought about how those boys might be disciplined

248
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,680
Speaker 1: for breaking this rule. For me, it was I was

249
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:18,200
Speaker 1: punished sometimes, I believe it was. It was just like

250
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:25,640
Speaker 1: staying in a room. It was lungy. I stayed there,

251
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,680
Speaker 1: especially at the at the end when I told that

252
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,440
Speaker 1: I have I want to leave, and and I stayed

253
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:37,360
Speaker 1: in the bedroom a lot, maybe two hours. They they

254
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,360
Speaker 1: they go to a restaurant or go to a movie,

255
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,920
Speaker 1: and you stay home at that room. Mike told us

256
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 1: that he was also disciplined by being locked in that

257
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:51,760
Speaker 1: little room, but usually his punishment was cleaning or doing

258
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,040
Speaker 1: chores for Sister Michelle, the nun in training who he

259
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 1: would one day murder. She was one if you messed

260
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,560
Speaker 1: out or from the rules, so he would get punished.

261
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:08,040
Speaker 1: So she was send me to help her everything everything

262
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,800
Speaker 1: she said, like what in the house, because she stayed

263
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,680
Speaker 1: everything everything that was one of the things we it

264
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,199
Speaker 1: is she always just never happened, never like this is

265
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,960
Speaker 1: not clear enough, this is good enough, So do this

266
00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,600
Speaker 1: over again? Has he films over again? And just being

267
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:31,399
Speaker 1: always mean? Yeah, definitely. Eliot told us that he had

268
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,520
Speaker 1: to work for Sister Michelle to cutting the grass near

269
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,160
Speaker 1: her house or cleaning, but he didn't mind working for her.

270
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:40,680
Speaker 1: It reminded him of churches he had to do at

271
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,880
Speaker 1: home in Ukraine. In the end, he said, the priests

272
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,200
Speaker 1: had figured out the punishment that would have the most

273
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 1: impact on each monastic candidate. They were good psychologists, so

274
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:59,240
Speaker 1: then they knew who was by work. When Mike first

275
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,720
Speaker 1: arrived at holy Cross back in he knew there was

276
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,400
Speaker 1: a second priest living there, Father Damien. But Mike says,

277
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,600
Speaker 1: back in Ukraine, Father went said nothing about any women

278
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 1: living at the monastery. So when you arrived at holy Cross,

279
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,680
Speaker 1: did you already know that there would be nuns there? No?

280
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,320
Speaker 1: I didn't. Father once he didn't tell us there was

281
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,399
Speaker 1: a nun, Sisty Michelle. I remember. The first impression was

282
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:31,560
Speaker 1: like she for her? Was she was really unfriendly? Friendly

283
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:36,399
Speaker 1: personally just after ever laughed or smiled. Was she in

284
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,320
Speaker 1: charge of like getting you guys ready for school? What?

285
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,760
Speaker 1: What was her role when it came to you guys,

286
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,600
Speaker 1: you and Petro, She was the one in charge of

287
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,400
Speaker 1: saying that the mourning players in the Uni prayers during

288
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,199
Speaker 1: the weekday. Mike told investigators that the sister Michelle he

289
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,240
Speaker 1: got to know was different from what regular students, teachers

290
00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,639
Speaker 1: and parents may have observed. Yeah, well there were many

291
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:05,280
Speaker 1: institutes that was happening that she was yelling at me

292
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,520
Speaker 1: or all the candidates, you know, like I always had

293
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,200
Speaker 1: to look over my fader to see the prince or

294
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,440
Speaker 1: her around if I talked to talk to all the

295
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:19,639
Speaker 1: students my friends. So yeah, she she she saw that

296
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,600
Speaker 1: she see me talking to and all the students. She

297
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,360
Speaker 1: would say, yes, definitely yell you know, you're not you're

298
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,960
Speaker 1: not allowed. It should be you're not you know, you're

299
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,680
Speaker 1: not allowed to talk to the other students. Yeah. Did

300
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,320
Speaker 1: she yell at you offer? Yeah? Yeah? And what what

301
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 1: sort of things would she say? For example, she should

302
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:46,400
Speaker 1: you know, code names you use useless and you pray

303
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 1: your trash and just just really just just being really

304
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,720
Speaker 1: did she treat the other manacer Canada? It's the same

305
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,120
Speaker 1: way as you. She was losto me to them. Yeah,

306
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,880
Speaker 1: and what was she mean to the other students at

307
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 1: the school or she Definitely she did different, you know

308
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 1: because the pretty much for her help us there. You know,

309
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 1: we were at our own every part of the church,

310
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,160
Speaker 1: and you know, of course she couldn't just be gelling

311
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,080
Speaker 1: all the students because they were in the terrible paying

312
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 1: for them to go there, so she couldn't them. Yeah, definitely.

313
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,359
Speaker 1: And also he hated the sister Michelle, but it wasn't

314
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna kill her. It just was like Michelle

315
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:38,400
Speaker 1: always telling things about Missas to the beasts, so it

316
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,560
Speaker 1: wasn't good for him. But Elia would not be the

317
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,160
Speaker 1: only person to see the tension between Mike and Sister Michelle.

318
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,920
Speaker 1: I went to different school every year up until holy Cross.

319
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 1: Holycross is the first school I ever went to two

320
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,160
Speaker 1: years in a row. Daniela's Pereira spent only her freshman

321
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,719
Speaker 1: and sophomore years at holy Cross Academy. She told us

322
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,600
Speaker 1: that because she moved from school to school so much,

323
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 1: she often had trouble making friends or fitting in. When

324
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 1: she was always the new girl at school, it was

325
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 1: no different at holy Cross. I was always never great

326
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,120
Speaker 1: at I don't want I don't know if it's saying

327
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,720
Speaker 1: making friends or you know, interacting because Mong people always

328
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:21,159
Speaker 1: have clicks and stuff like that. So I made a

329
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,400
Speaker 1: few friends, but mainly I've really kept to myself, and

330
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,640
Speaker 1: you know, I seek other outsiders. As she got familiar

331
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,680
Speaker 1: with the holy Cross, she saw that the monastic candidates

332
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 1: were some of those outsiders, the kids no one could

333
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 1: talk to, who floated on the edges of the student body. Well,

334
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,160
Speaker 1: I remember it was kind of like Handmaiden's Tale. They

335
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 1: always had to be with another one. They could never

336
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 1: like really be alone, so they were always in pairs.

337
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 1: At holy Cross, Danielle has became the one student that

338
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 1: got to know Mike best during his time there, or

339
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 1: at least as well as she could get to know

340
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 1: someone who she wasn't supposed to be talking to at all.

341
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 1: Despite being apprimanded by teachers, Danielle says she spent most

342
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 1: days eating lunch with Mike and another monastic candidate, the

343
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,919
Speaker 1: Elia's cousin. She says she always saw them pair together.

344
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 1: So how did that start? The eating lunch? I remember it.

345
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 1: I was friends with Jessica Um and she was talking,

346
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 1: and she was talking to somebody else, and I wasn't

347
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 1: interested in. I look over at Mikhailo and Vassals. You're

348
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: sitting by themselves on the table, and I'm like, you know,

349
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,159
Speaker 1: what's good. I get up and I go take my

350
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: train and I go over there and sit down with them,

351
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: And I remember I went over and I go, hey,

352
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 1: can I sit down here? And he's like, yeah, sure.

353
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,360
Speaker 1: Mikailo was the first one was like yeah, sure, sit down.

354
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 1: And I sat down and I started talking and I

355
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 1: started asking questions, so I was interested. I'm like, oh,

356
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: so you're from the Ukraine, so you're gonna be a

357
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 1: monk And he's like yeah, and I'm like, okay, that's cool.

358
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 1: After that, Danielle says she made it a point to

359
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: sit with the two of them most days. The Seal

360
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: was still learning English at the time, so she mostly

361
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 1: talked to Mike about the classes they had together, their teachers,

362
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 1: and some times basketball. But she was also curious about

363
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: why a teenager would decide to become a monk in

364
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: the first place, you know, because it's like you're so

365
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 1: young to dedicate your life to basically servitude. I remember

366
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: kind of like flat out asking him like do you

367
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 1: really want to be a monk, and him like like

368
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: like inching towards me and like kind of in a whisper,

369
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: going now, you know, no, I really want to be

370
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: a teacher, you know, I want to use that I

371
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,880
Speaker 1: want to get the American education, and I really want

372
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: to be a school teacher. That's something he really wanted

373
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 1: to do, but it was a wonderful opportunity for him.

374
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: He saw it as his golden ticket, like you can

375
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: do this and you know, go through it for a

376
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 1: few years, get his education, and then get out. Danielle

377
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: says that Mike told her about the secret ambitions a

378
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: few times, but that he never said how he planned

379
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: to become a teacher. She also noticed that their conversations

380
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,719
Speaker 1: only ever got more personal like this when they had

381
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 1: a few moments alone. That's when I noticed the whole

382
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,239
Speaker 1: thing about how they always had to be to get there.

383
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 1: It was one he'd be more open to me when

384
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: Vassil was away getting a napkins or getting something. That's

385
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 1: when he would say something more, you know, like to me,

386
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: mind you, I'm sixteen years old, so my mind is

387
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 1: like not noticing all the little things. But I should

388
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: have been like, that's not normal. You know Now in hindsight,

389
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 1: you know, I can look back and be like, huh,

390
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: total Handmaiden's tale. How they're always together, So something does,

391
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: somebody does something wrong, the other one will tell Father

392
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 1: Rabd or Father Damien. They'll get in trouble. One day

393
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,360
Speaker 1: during the school year, Danielle's was walking alone between classes

394
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: when she witnessed something that made her worry about Mike.

395
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: I remember an interaction once I saw his sister Michelle

396
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: and Mikailo cofell. I was going up to class, going

397
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 1: up the stairs, and she was yelling at him for something,

398
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: and he was standing looking down on the floor, like

399
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 1: looking at his feet while she was belittling him and

400
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: talking down to him. He looked like when somebody scolds

401
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: a five year old, just completely missive, looking down straight

402
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: at the floor while she was talking to him. And

403
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: I remember walking away and like that obviously upset me.

404
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: The next time she and Mike were alone, Danielle's asked

405
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: him about what happened that day. Honestly, I remember that

406
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 1: one time when I confronted him, like I asked him

407
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: because I saw that, And then afterwards I asked him,

408
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, I saw sister Michelle b me and

409
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: you are you okay? What happened? That's when he told

410
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: me she's not a nice person. She's very mean. She

411
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 1: makes fun of his accent. She makes fun of if

412
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: he messes up with a word, like instead of correcting him,

413
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: she like literally made fun of it, and she was

414
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: just very mean. She was a bully to him. By

415
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: March two thousand one, Danielle's which schools again, and she

416
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: learned about sister Michelle's murder on the news. When she

417
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: first saw Mike's smug shot on TV with cuts and

418
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: scratches on his face, she couldn't believe that the boy

419
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 1: she spent so much time talking with could do something

420
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: so terrible that was like a punch in the gut.

421
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: Last person I would ever suspect to kill anybody would

422
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: have been Mikhailo during the time in school. He was

423
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: one of my closest friends, and he was just such

424
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 1: a sweet person that I was like immediately, immediately, like

425
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: people reversed and like, oh my god, he's a monster

426
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 1: for doing that. I the opposite. I'm like, I immediately

427
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: thought of when she I caught her yelling at him

428
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: in the hallway that I'm like, there has to be

429
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: a reason, Like I immediately knew, like, there has to

430
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: be a reason he did this. This couldn't be him

431
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: being like evil wanting to kill somebody. There must have

432
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: something must have happened for him to, you know, suddenly

433
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: snap and kill sister Michelle. Did he ever tell you

434
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: that he was depressed? No? Never, never did I really

435
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: did feel it, you know, like I felt like maybe

436
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: he was sad and stuff, um, but I I didn't.

437
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 1: I didn't know what it could be the cause. Like

438
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 1: he never he never like took the confidence in me

439
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: to tell me anything that was going on with him.

440
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: So I really don't know. But Mike says there was

441
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: more going on in his life than just sister Michelle

442
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: that gave him this aura of sadness. We'll get to

443
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: that after a break. Welcome back to Sacred Scandal. I

444
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: am Paula Barrows and I'm Melanie Bartley. Back in n

445
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: when Mike and Petro tarn To first arrived in Miami,

446
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: they were both paired off with one of the two

447
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: priests to work as their assistant or helper. Petro was

448
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: first paired with Father Damien Gibbold, and Mike would help

449
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: Father went and the priest would be a sort of

450
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: mentor for the monks. In these early days, when Mike

451
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: was struggling with adapting to life in Miami and at

452
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: the monastery, he said he could go to Father Went

453
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: to talk about his problems. But one night when he

454
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: went to speak to the priest. Mike says, everything changed.

455
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: I remember first the first few months I was ad

456
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: to wry about when so you know, when we're talking,

457
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: I was going through a really pressing and going through

458
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,239
Speaker 1: some really difficult friends. So said, I was announced like

459
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: that was in his house, right Went's house, he says,

460
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: or you know, uh, you know one of the apostles,

461
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: remember put upon his head on Jesus chest. So he says,

462
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: it was like, so it's he was that, you know,

463
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: I was like, you know something, he said, it was okay,

464
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: like context. So I remember him wrinning his hands of

465
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: course my chest and private pass and tried. When this happened,

466
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: he said his body just froze. He told us he

467
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: was uncomfortable and couldn't react. Mike told police in his

468
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: confession that this is how the sexual abuse he claims

469
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: took place at Holy Cross began, and that this same

470
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: situation happened again while he served as Father Wentz assistant.

471
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: After about eight months of working as Went's assistant, for

472
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: some unknown reason, Mike says, things switched. He was reassigned

473
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: to Father Damien and Petro would now assist Father went

474
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: Not long after this change, Mike says he witnessed Petro

475
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: being touched in the same way that he was when

476
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: he needed to go back to Went's house one night

477
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: after their curfew. I forgot has has once key, so

478
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: I was returned back and turned back once I returned back.

479
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: And I've seen the same thing as seen Father who

480
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: went like his hands. It wasn't over chess and stole

481
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: may just rubbing him. So I've seen my own eyes.

482
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: You said he quoted the Bible when he was doing that.

483
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, if we used the Bible, whatever they needed

484
00:29:53,640 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: to know. Toniclidas Mike says that the priest used his

485
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: position as a man of God and an authority in

486
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: their monastery to create these situations. He also said that

487
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: when he switched to working for Father Damien, things were

488
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: no different and the abuse didn't stop. He says it

489
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: started one day while they were driving to get groceries.

490
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: Mike told us Father Damien started rubbing Max Dye in

491
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: the car. From there, things escalated and him he was

492
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: really yeah, yeah, he he was with more more predator,

493
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: definitely definitely more predator. Definitely predator. And were also we

494
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: have like confession and during the confession he would also

495
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: like touch me, uh my private post and eventually also

496
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: gave me maybe his pills because I was going to

497
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: drive a defessant, he asked me. He told me you

498
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: can have my pillows and you know also his own pillows,

499
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: which was anti anxiety pills. How do how did those

500
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: pills make you feel? What was the effect? Oh? I

501
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: was just high and I guess more relaxed, so you

502
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: know that. And yeah, he would give the pills and

503
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: I know, yes, So they had this okay, hed TV

504
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,719
Speaker 1: right had all the channels, so he was watching watching

505
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: like soft porn and stuff. And also during watching the

506
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: soft porn, he was just you know, get aroused. And

507
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: then of course he'd order me to undress two my

508
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: briefs and then um so he was red like so

509
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: hippopped all my product piers and then he was just

510
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: he was trapping his hands all over my body. Then

511
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: he grabbing my penis and just I remember I got

512
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: correct and he started he started laughing, and I remember

513
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: him saying it something like you like it, and he

514
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: was laughing, he was laughing, and I was I was

515
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: just really like shog. Mike says that being called to

516
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: father Damien's room like this at night happened often and

517
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: was done in secret. He also claims that he was

518
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: given his own private room as a way of hiding

519
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: the abuse from other monks. In the night, Mike says

520
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: Father Damien summoned him down to his own room after

521
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: everyone went to bed, and none of the other monks

522
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: would see him leave. Once in Father Damien's room, Mike says,

523
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: the priests would set an alarm for three or four

524
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning, when he would send Mike back

525
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: down to his room before the other boys in the

526
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: house were awake. That was why I was in my

527
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: last because you always try the priests always he should

528
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: obay whatever whatever said, and of course punishments if you

529
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: disobey or anything. So my whole mind, it's just just

530
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: unimaginably like this, arguing Mike told us some police that

531
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: over the years he was touched by Father Damien on

532
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: numerous occasions and raped by the priest at least six times,

533
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: and he says these feelings of shame and agony hung

534
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: over him while he lived in that same house as

535
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: Father Damien. He says he wanted to get away, but

536
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: also didn't want to go back to his home in Ukraine.

537
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: So Mike says he started trying to find a way out.

538
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: Remember then GiB wasna I used this computer. I looked

539
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: at what the recruitment center like, army army recruitment center.

540
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: So now I looked up and got a phone number.

541
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: So I called this armory of recruitment guy. I said,

542
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: you know, can I be part of the army and stuff?

543
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: And he said he told my coulion because I was

544
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: not American resident citizen sold. Mike says he felt frustrated

545
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: and trapped in his situation. But in two thousand, Mike

546
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: graduated from Holy Cross and things changed. After Mike finished

547
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: high school, he Petro and father went, we're all taking

548
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 1: classes at Barry University, a Catholic college about five miles

549
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: away from the monastery. So to be closer to the school,

550
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: the three of them runted a house near the university campus.

551
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: It was at this time Mike says he started to

552
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: feel more free at school. He told us that he

553
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: would take off his tie and jacket to blend in

554
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: more with the other students, and he was also able

555
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: to drive by himself between Holy Cross and the Barry House.

556
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: When in the car with the priests. They had the

557
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: dial set to the classical radio stations, but on his

558
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: own Mike had the freedom to choose his own soundtrack.

559
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 1: So I remember driving to campus and just turning, just

560
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: listened to regular a puplar songs. Do you remember a

561
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: song or or an artist that you would like to

562
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: listen to? Oh? Yeah, yeah cool? Cryptonite did think all

563
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: those down, there's just those songs late nine public songs.

564
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 1: I remember that when it be going back to the house,

565
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: go back to station, make sure yea. Even though Mike

566
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: started to feel happier once he got out of high school,

567
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,479
Speaker 1: those feelings were only temporary. Mike petroin Went only lived

568
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 1: at the Berry House during the week when they had classes.

569
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 1: On the weekend, they came back to Holy Cross to

570
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: pray at the monastery and help with church services on Sunday.

571
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: It was then Mike says that he'd be called to

572
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 1: Father Damien's room again in the night, and he would

573
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: become depressed and angry. Mike told us he'd been holding

574
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: in these growing feelings for five years that Holy Cross.

575
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: He said he was too ashamed to tell anyone about

576
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 1: the abuse, and too afraid to give up his life

577
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 1: and schooling in the US to move back to Ukraine.

578
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: And he told us how he started to question his

579
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: own faith and became angry and confused. But it all

580
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 1: culminated on the night of the murder, when he says

581
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: was the last time he was raped. The really the

582
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: whole thing was already was really building up, the whole

583
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: the whole rage was a ready million up more and more.

584
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: I pretty much lost my religion by the time. I

585
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: was like praising God and hated the police everything, just

586
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 1: hating my life. I remember being suicible. I had had

587
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: time I really want to kill myself. I was so

588
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: because I was still going to really struggling, still going

589
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: struggling inside too from the abuse, through everything you know,

590
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: and just little still nice. I had trouble for to sleep.

591
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 1: It was so much just run in my mind, and

592
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: so I will just be really suicible. So I had

593
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: his knife. I'm was just cutting myself because I felt

594
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: I would be better once I cut myself. Just remember

595
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 1: cutting myself. I feel like some scars from from from

596
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 1: cutting myself from the knife. And let me ask, were

597
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: you cutting yourself at the time that you were being

598
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: abused by Damien. Yes, yes, did he ever noticed your scars,

599
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: your wounds? Yeah, And I would specially lie, you know,

600
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: honestly something. Oh, I I just you know, I scrushed

601
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: myself by accident, you know, I you know, I went,

602
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 1: I was going by the fans, and I caught myself,

603
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: you know fans, and just bestically amount I would lie.

604
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: And so the night you killed sister Michelle, um, you

605
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: were raped by Damien that same night, right, yes, can

606
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 1: you walk me through that? That night, I just remember

607
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: I was in his room, right, and he he was

608
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 1: he was really like that move. So I remember just

609
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: remember him in pushing me, pushing me down on one

610
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 1: bed and taking taking my uh, taking my my brief

611
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 1: off and just pushed me down and just pushing himself

612
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: and hell with me. So yeah, written. And then after

613
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: he was done, if he fell asleep, I remember getting

614
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: his key because at the time, whenever he was asleep,

615
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: it's nory. I would get his key. I would and

616
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 1: I would go to like school as school rooms or

617
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 1: other rooms, and and I was just listen the kids

618
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: to go through rooms in in in school. And then

619
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: I went to I got got the power of wine.

620
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 1: And that's when you know, election got drunk. Hello, can

621
00:38:49,960 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: you hear me? Hello? Did I lose you? Since Melanie

622
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: and I started talking to Mike fifteen years ago, we've

623
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 1: asked each other the same question, if he was being

624
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: abused by the priests, why did he murder sister Michelle?

625
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: And his answer has been the same every time. He's

626
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: told us that he doesn't know, he just lost his

627
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: mind and snapped. It's a reason we always struggle with

628
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: because it seems so hard to comprehend, so unreal, and

629
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: to be honest, we've not always felt like it was

630
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: the truth, like there's more to it that he's afraid

631
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: to tell us. But this year, when we talked to Danielis,

632
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: the girl who ate lunch with Mike at holy Cross,

633
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: she told us a story about herself that put Mike's

634
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: reasoning into perspective, and it helped us understand how someone

635
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 1: liked Mike, overwhelmed with rage can be capable of doing

636
00:39:53,880 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: something so terrible. So Danielle's came to holy Cross with

637
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: her sister, who was a little bit younger than her.

638
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: She had a hard time fitting in at the school

639
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: and was being bullied pretty badly by other kids. It's

640
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 1: why their mom eventually took them out of Holy Cross.

641
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: Danielle said she did her best to get the kids

642
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 1: to stop, but one day an older girl was picking

643
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 1: on her eight year old sister, and Danielle's had seen enough.

644
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 1: I literally grabbed her hair above her ears and I

645
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 1: banged her head in the corner of the cafeteria battle

646
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: bench chair. I was bringing her head like that. I

647
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: wanted to destroy her. At one point when I hit

648
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: her head against that, she opened her mouth and her

649
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 1: eyes got super glassy, and then the two pe coaches

650
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: pulled me off. I snapped and I know I could

651
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,399
Speaker 1: have killed her. I know I could because I saw

652
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: the reaction on her face when I banged her head

653
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: in the corner. She was bleeding in the back of

654
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 1: her head. I could have killed her. I snapped back,

655
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: and I'm like, what the hell am I doing? Like

656
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill this girl? And because your rage takes over,

657
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 1: and when your rage takes over, it's hard to control

658
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: that when you're anger and rageist goes. So I really,

659
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: I really do sympathize, like obviously from Mikailo to have

660
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: done what he did. You know, you don't stab somebody

661
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: what n six times you don't stab somebody like that

662
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 1: without a being complete loss of control, pure rage. You know,

663
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 1: he probably wasn't even in his own body. It wasn't

664
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: until afterwards that he came out of it or I

665
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: don't know. Like honestly, this is the sort of reasoning

666
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: that Mike's lawyers would use for his defense. But even

667
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: though he confessed to the murder, this case would not

668
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 1: be simple. It would drag on through the Miami legal

669
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: system for almost five years and take police and attorneys

670
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: from both sides all the way to Transcarpathia Mike's home

671
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: in search of answers. All that is next time on

672
00:41:55,120 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: Sacred Scandal. Sacred Scandal is a production of Exile Content

673
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: Studio in partnership with I Heart Radio's Michael da Podcast Network.

674
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: Sacred Scandal was created and produced by Melanie Bartley and

675
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: me Paula Barrows. Our senior producer is Dennis Funk of

676
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: Written in Air. The executive producers are Rose Red and

677
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: Nando Villa. Our production assistant is Emani Leonard. The show

678
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: is fact checked by Kimberly Winston. Original music was composed

679
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 1: by Patrick Hart and special thanks on this episode to

680
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: Brian Robertson and Travis Roy. If you'd like to reach out,

681
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: email us at hello at Sacred Scandal podcast dot com,

682
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: and you can follow us on Instagram at Sacred scandal

683
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: owe