1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: I asked my friend yesterday. 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 2: I was like, how long do you think is like 3 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 2: a normal amount of time to get over a friend breakup? 4 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 2: And she was like, Babe, I don't think that there's 5 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 2: like a normal amount of time. And then I was 6 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 2: just thinking about it today and I was like, I 7 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 2: actually think I won't be sad about it for the 8 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 2: rest of moh m. 9 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 3: Not. 10 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: Kind of oh my deathbed, thinking where is she? Why 11 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: is she not holding my hand right now? 12 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: So far, we've mostly been talking about the boy part 13 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 2: of boysover, the sex, the romance, the relationships. 14 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: But there's another aspect. 15 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 2: To knowing yourself, and it's understanding that friendships are just 16 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 2: as important as romantic relationships. 17 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: So if you are going through a friend breakup and you're. 18 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 2: Like, oh, what the hell, I gotta get over this already, 19 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 2: just know you are not alone, and it just means 20 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 2: that you have a really big heart and you had 21 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 2: a lot of love and that's so great that you 22 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: had that with someone, and you'll probably miss them for 23 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: a long time. This week, we're talking about the crushing 24 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 2: nature of friend breakups. I'm hopewordered and welcome to voiceover 25 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 2: a space where we're learning and on learning all the 26 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 2: myths we're taught about love and relationships. One thing that 27 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 2: I haven't talked about is that at the beginning of 28 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 2: my voiceover year, I was also dealing with the end 29 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 2: of a friendship. It was with somebody who was really 30 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 2: special to me, and to be honest, it wasn't my 31 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: first time going through something like this, and it's embarrassing 32 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: for me to admit how many friend breakups I've been through. 33 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: It's not something that's easy for me to think about, 34 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 2: and if I'm being honest, it's not something I'm very 35 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 2: proud of. But that one friend breakup in particular, that 36 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: was harder than any of the others, and I'm still 37 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: really untangling my emotions about it, which is a little 38 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: bit embarrassing for me because it was over a year ago. 39 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 2: So I'm asking myself all the time. Shouldn't I be 40 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: over it already? 41 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 4: Right? 42 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 5: No? 43 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 4: Episo? 44 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 3: Yeah? 45 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So do we want this? It's a lot 46 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 4: of tight ship right now. 47 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: I have to believe that. 48 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,839 Speaker 2: Like when I was in the studio the other day 49 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 2: with my producers Emily and Christina, it came up my 50 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 2: one best friend and I stopped speaking to each other 51 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: completely and she was like my sister. You know, it 52 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 2: was really a number of things. It was like we 53 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: didn't have the same perspective on what was happening, and 54 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 2: we tried to ignore that for a long time, and 55 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: then that just came to a head and my life 56 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 2: was sort of falling apart. 57 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 3: Was this during a time like you were already having 58 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 3: like already how. 59 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: Everyone, I've let people down, I've fucked up, I've flopped. 60 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 2: If you remember from our very first episode, my first 61 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: attempt at going boiceovert didn't really go according to plan. 62 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: Internet virality, headlines. 63 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 2: Depression, anxiety, it all kind of got in the way. 64 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: And to make it worse, I didn't really have anyone 65 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 2: to turn to. I don't want to sound dramatic, but 66 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: I don't really think I knew how to see myself 67 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: or even knew who to really. 68 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: Be at that time. 69 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 2: I didn't know who to lean on or how to 70 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: communicate how I was really feeling. I was trying to 71 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 2: act fine, but I wasn't. I'd been in Tennessee with 72 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: my family, which is never totally stable, and I needed 73 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: a sense of normal. See, once I got back to 74 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: New York, I was so far away from myself though 75 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 2: that I was doing anything for a sense of belonging me. 76 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: And this girl, I loved her because she was so 77 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: different from me, and she made me feel like I 78 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: could be a part of a type of New York 79 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 2: that I never feel like I can be a part of. 80 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 2: And so it was my first night back in New 81 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 2: York and we were supposed to go out together. 82 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,679 Speaker 5: And she invited this one girl. 83 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 2: And all of these girls are very hot, I don't 84 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 2: give a fuck, you know what I mean, sexy, comedian player, 85 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 2: just hot. And the ones who were like I who 86 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 2: I was trying to be, like, Yeah, And on that 87 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: night where I just felt like my whole life was 88 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: out of my hands, she invited this girl onto a 89 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 2: night out and I knew this girl was a party girl. 90 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: Long story short. The girl she brought a girl I 91 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 2: didn't know. I didn't want to be a caretaker that night. 92 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: I did not want to be there emotionally for anyone. 93 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: I wanted someone just desperately to be their emotional I 94 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 2: wanted my friend there for me, and I didn't want 95 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 2: to have to hold anyone else's hair back. And then 96 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: this girl that she brings along, which like all loved 97 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 2: this girl. She is not my enemy. These girls are 98 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 2: not my enemies. Gets too drunk and passes out in 99 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: the middle of the floor. And then my friend she's 100 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 2: acting like she's twenty two and in college, and I'm like, 101 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 2: I'm twenty seven. 102 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 5: And my life is fucking falling apart. 103 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: I do not, you know. 104 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: And then after that night, I started to resent my 105 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: friend so much, and I didn't. 106 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 5: Tell her that I hated her for it. 107 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: I tried to remove myself from our relationship, but we 108 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 2: were so codependent that my backing up was so obvious. 109 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: That is when I started like drinking a lot more. 110 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 2: And I don't consider myself an alcoholic, but I do 111 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 2: have a substance abuse issue, and I do want to escape, 112 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 2: and I do want to ignore when I don't like 113 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 2: someone or like something, and drinking helps me ignore that. 114 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: Like I would be hanging out with her, and I 115 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 2: would be like getting absolutely hammered and just being like, 116 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 2: I actually cannot be across the table from her if 117 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 2: I'm not hammered, because I'm angry and I'm hurt and 118 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 2: I would rather not talk about it. And she was 119 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 2: so confused, and I was probably gaslighting her because I 120 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 2: kept saying, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, things are fine. 121 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: I'm just taking space. I'm fine, I'm just busy. I'm fine. 122 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, did you guys ever have an actual talk about it? 123 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 2: To make a long story short, we didn't really talk 124 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 2: so much as fight. All of the ways we hurt 125 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: each other and everything I was resenting her for bubbled 126 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 2: up one night and ended with us in a huge 127 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 2: screaming match after a comedy show we fought. 128 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: In that moment, She's screaming at. 129 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 4: Me in front of people. 130 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 2: In the street, absolutely in the street, outside of a 131 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:59,239 Speaker 2: venue at a comedy show. She's like saying that, Yeah, 132 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 2: I don't care. I mean just you know, like I 133 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: loved her so much in that moment, I said. I 134 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 2: texted her after it all, and I said, let's email 135 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: about this. That's funny, but I also understand exactly why 136 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 2: you did that, Like you. 137 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 5: We can email about this enough. 138 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 4: Distance to have like a rational right, right, right, we. 139 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: Can write each other because what I said to her, 140 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: I think another thing about her. She's brilliant, and this 141 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: is what I love about her because I'm like, I'm 142 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: all emotion. 143 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: Yeah she's not. 144 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: She's all intellect, She's all logic, okay. And so I 145 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: say to her, let's email about this. We'll send each 146 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: other sort of research papers on this, like we can 147 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: write our arguments. Because I sent her. I can't keep 148 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: up with her. Like she has the type of brain. 149 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: She could be a lawyer, she. 150 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 5: Could be account I could be at a debate, you know. 151 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 4: Still going with. 152 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 2: Her wasn't like agree to dis or just no. 153 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 4: There was no end to it. But it was like 154 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 4: I was on each other a power. 155 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 5: Point, but she was like, you can email me, oh, okay. 156 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 4: So she was not going to meet you in the 157 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 4: middle in any kind of form. 158 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: And the thing that actually broke us up is there 159 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: was a guy that liked me and she liked him, 160 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: and he wanted to be her friend, and he was 161 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 2: texting me and I made a TikTok about it and 162 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 2: I didn't tell her, and I publicly said, this guy 163 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: is texting me Da da da da da. And she 164 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 2: saw that video. This is after she hurt my feelings again. 165 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 2: We got in this fight, and so I make this video. Listen, 166 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 2: I was begging for her to leave me. 167 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 4: I made the video with the intention of her knowing she. 168 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 5: Would say I mean just like I made the video 169 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 5: to hurt her totally, Okay, I. 170 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: Think I wanted her to. I wanted to hurt her. 171 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 2: I think like I was still mad at her about 172 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 2: not really being there for me. I was mad at 173 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: her for not knowing why she had never apologized about 174 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 2: any of it. And then on top of this, I'm 175 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 2: like trying to give her so much space on something 176 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: that is a value of mine. I'm going against my 177 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 2: values making space for yours because I want to be understanding. 178 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: And still, when I tell you, let's email about this, 179 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 2: you tell me I can email you. I had been 180 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 2: avoiding her for weeks and then she texted me and 181 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 2: she was like, is this about so and so? 182 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, it is. And she was like, 183 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: I don't think we should be friends anymore. And I 184 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: was like totally. 185 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 2: Obviously, I'm not totally healed. So this week I'm talking 186 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 2: to someone who can help me make sense of all 187 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 2: these tangled emotions. 188 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi Michelle, Welcome to boy Sober. 189 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 6: Hi so lovely to talk to you. 190 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 2: This is Michelle Ellman. She's the author of Bad Friend, 191 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: Why Friendship, Breakups Hurt, and How To Heal. Michelle's written 192 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: plenty of other books like How to Say No and 193 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 2: The Selfish Romantic, and she's even been given the title 194 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 2: Queen of Boundaries. I was nervous going into the chat 195 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: with her. I still feel vulnerable about my friend breakups, 196 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: but Michelle immediately reminded me that I'm not alone in 197 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 2: all these messy, lingering feelings. Have you gone through, like 198 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: a really intense friendship breakup that inspired this book? 199 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 6: So I think the thing that really pushed me to 200 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 6: bad Friend because I always loved this topic and I 201 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 6: always wanted to talk about it, but I had so 202 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 6: much shame around it. And the thing that finally we'd 203 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 6: break through the shame and go I can't be the 204 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 6: only one was my best friend. Eight years we lived together, 205 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 6: and she had moved out maybe six months before to 206 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 6: go live with her boyfriend, and she broke up with 207 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,719 Speaker 6: me over text and it wasn't even a breakup. She 208 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 6: ghosted midway through texting. We were arguing about something and 209 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 6: she ghosted me, and then I had to get on 210 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 6: stage and give a talk about Christmas. 211 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 3: Like. 212 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: Nightmare scenario. 213 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 6: And yet what I was feeling internally was if I 214 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 6: was walking into this work event and I was saying 215 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 6: I've just ended a romantic relationship of eight years, I'd 216 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 6: be met with so much compassion, so much kind as, 217 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 6: so much empathy. Yet if I walked into the same 218 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 6: building doing the same job and I went my best 219 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 6: friend of eight years just broke up with me, I 220 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 6: sound like a thirteen year old in a playground. And 221 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 6: I was like, that is so unfair because I was 222 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 6: single for all of those eight years. And I don't 223 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 6: know what man I'm going to marry At my wedding, 224 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 6: I don't know who the groom is. I knew who 225 00:11:58,240 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 6: the maid of honor was going to be, and she 226 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 6: was no longer going to be my main of HONA, 227 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 6: Like that is just as much a part of my 228 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 6: future as any man would be. And yet you would 229 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 6: expect someone to be a broken mess after an eight 230 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 6: year romantic breakup. But I wasn't being allowed or given 231 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 6: permission to have the same level of emotion around a 232 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 6: platonic relationship. 233 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: I have been through so many friendship breakups because I 234 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 2: treat friendships like romance, and I get really close to 235 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 2: one person. 236 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: I've got a one ride or die. I'm not a 237 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: friend group girl, and I'm a little bit. 238 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 2: Codependent and so these are things I like, I know 239 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 2: about myself, but it sets up a friendship to inevitably 240 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: sort of like reach a head. 241 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 3: So to speak. 242 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 2: And so when you said in your book, like we're 243 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: mostly ghosting each other, for me, those breakups have been 244 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 2: like big blow up, knock down, drag out fights. I've 245 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,839 Speaker 2: had one friend ghost me and it was like one 246 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 2: of the most heartbreaks. 247 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: It is so heartbreaking. 248 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: You're ghosted because there's just no there's no closure, and 249 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,199 Speaker 2: you're like, wait, tell me what It's almost like you 250 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: want to be. 251 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: Like tell me what's wrong with me? Like, tell me 252 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: what makes this worth it? 253 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 6: To explain? Now explosions. I talk about this in Bad Friends. 254 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 6: But intensity in the creation of a friendship there will 255 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 6: always be intensity in the fallout of the friendship too, 256 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 6: And it's one of the things that was very much 257 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 6: a learning lesson in friendship of like take your time, 258 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 6: go slowly. You are not in a rush, and if 259 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 6: you make your friendships quickly, they'll also burn out quickly too. 260 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 2: Gosh, don't call me out like that. That's so rude, Like, 261 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 2: oh my god, I want to know, like if because 262 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 2: I feel like for you, a lot of your perspective 263 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 2: is like, you know, we all need different things as friends, 264 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: and the thing that makes a good friend is like 265 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 2: understanding what you need out of friendship and like having 266 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 2: that sort of understanding going into a relationship with someone 267 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 2: a friendship with someone, do you believe in sort of 268 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: like a bad friend? Do you have an ideas of 269 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 2: a bad friend in your head or do you think like, oh, 270 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 2: we're all just different friends. 271 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 6: It doesn't help that we don't have a very clear 272 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 6: definition of what a friend is. Well, we have quite 273 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 6: a definition of what a good girlfriend and what a 274 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 6: good boyfriend looks like or good romantic partner. What it 275 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 6: looks like, right, it's different values for another person. It's 276 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 6: another set of values. And that's where it's blurry. And 277 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 6: I think this thing of it's language that's used both 278 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 6: in romantic relationships and platonic relationships of if you knew me, 279 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 6: you would know. And it's like this idea that humans 280 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 6: are predictable. But you could be upset one day and 281 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 6: you could want a couple of tea. You could be 282 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 6: upset another day and you would want a hug, Like 283 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 6: humans are not predictable. If you need something for me, 284 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 6: you are going to need to ask like an adult 285 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 6: because I cannot read your mind. 286 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: I really love for people to try and read my mind, 287 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 2: and I'm really mad at them when I can't. 288 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: Like that is definitely something that I like, something I. 289 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 5: Am aware of and working on. 290 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 6: You also expect people to know when you're upset without 291 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 6: you actually telling them that you're upset. 292 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 2: My issue is that I think the way we interact 293 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: with friendship really depends on how we were raised, you know, 294 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 2: and what our survival skills were in like early adolescent, 295 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 2: childhood whatever. And so for me, kind of a survival 296 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 2: skill was like being intuitive and sort of anticipating people's needs, 297 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: and so in my friendships, I fall into that where 298 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 2: I'm like always trying to anticipate how my friends feel, 299 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: and then when that's not reciprocated, I'm like really angry. 300 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: But it's like that's what I do, you know, and 301 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: I can't expect what I do to be what they do, 302 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 2: And that is like something I'm understanding now. 303 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 6: Also, you have to understand that that's a skill of yours, 304 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 6: Like that's a like fod Levil skill that not everybody 305 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 6: else shifted and for you, my I'm not guessing anything 306 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 6: about your life. But for a lot of people, the 307 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 6: way they have hypervigilance of being able to pick up 308 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 6: on mood shifts and mood changes can be born. Actually, 309 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 6: someone who hasn't had trauma, they're like, wait, why could 310 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 6: you not tell I was upset? Well, I never had 311 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 6: to walk around and read the room every single time 312 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 6: when I was seven years old growing up because I 313 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 6: didn't know who was going to start a fight. So 314 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 6: they don't hypercent of like picking up on people upset 315 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 6: in the room, and that expectation is coming out of 316 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 6: the place of you actually have a skill and a 317 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 6: strength that you are not aware is not commonplace and 318 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 6: not everyone has that ability. 319 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 2: This makes me think of your conversations on boundaries, because 320 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 2: you've written a lot about boundaries, you talk about how 321 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 2: important they are. Do you think crossing a boundary is 322 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 2: worthy of a friend breakup? 323 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 6: Not the first time? Never the first time, because first 324 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 6: of all, you don't know A lot of the times 325 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 6: they don't know that boundary until you've actually set it. 326 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 6: For you to set the boundary the first time, I 327 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 6: think it's a lot of the time. I mean, it 328 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 6: depends what the boundary is. If the boundary is like 329 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 6: they've slept with your boyfriend, Like, yeah, maybe that's but 330 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 6: generally actually set it afterwards, like and then also set 331 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 6: a consequence for it, and it in the way I 332 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 6: teach boundaries, like if you haven't told someone the consequence 333 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 6: of breaking that boundary, then it's not really fair to 334 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 6: that person, because I like, if someone doesn't know that 335 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 6: it's going to be that hurtful to you or that 336 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 6: the consequence of that would be a friendship breakup, I 337 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 6: do think you need to get on a chance. And 338 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 6: I think a lot of the time this immediate ending 339 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 6: of a friendship, obviously not in extreme scenarios, is avoidance 340 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 6: of having difficult conversations. And I think that's where people 341 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 6: are willing to get down in the mud and have 342 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 6: a messy conversation, and it will be messy if they're 343 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 6: our feelings involved and people are upset, and I just 344 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 6: think it could be something like some I remember there 345 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 6: was a fight I got into a with a friend 346 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 6: and she called me a name. I can't remember what 347 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 6: it was, but she called me a name and I said, 348 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 6: if you continue to speak to me like that, I'm 349 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 6: going to leave the room. And then so the next 350 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 6: time it happens, I might not leave the room, but 351 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 6: the next time I might go, hey, this is the 352 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 6: second time you throw out names in the middle of 353 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 6: a conflict, And I just don't find it very productive. 354 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 6: If we're going to continue to have a friendship, I 355 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 6: need you to be able to speak to me with respect, 356 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 6: even at our most heat and moments. 357 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: Why do you think we are culturally allowed to fight 358 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 2: with our romantic partners, but we're not really allowed to 359 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: fight with our platonic partners. And like, I'll give an example, 360 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: Like I have this best friend of like almost ten 361 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 2: years now, and we kind of got into this like knockdown, 362 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 2: drag out fight where I was crying and he was screaming, 363 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 2: and like he's like my family. You know, there is 364 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: something nice about it for me, But I don't think 365 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 2: we really have the same cultural permission to fight in 366 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 2: our friendships like we do in our romantic relationships. 367 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,959 Speaker 6: I think the reason why it felt sort of nice 368 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 6: was because as much as you're fighting, you're also fighting 369 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 6: for the friendship. There is something quite respectful in the 370 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 6: fact someone will want to engage with you enough to 371 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 6: save them. And this is also a conversation I have 372 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 6: a lot around boundaries of when you haven't had healthy 373 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 6: boundary setting as a child, you think someone setting a 374 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 6: boundary with you is them being angry with you, when actually, 375 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 6: like I try to tell people like, if I'm setting 376 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 6: a boundary with you, it's because I'm still communicating with you, 377 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 6: because I care about you and I want to save 378 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 6: the friendship. 379 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 2: Right, what do you think is the proper way to 380 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 2: go through a friend breakup? What do you think the 381 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 2: mechanics of a friendship breakup should really look? 382 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 3: Like? 383 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 6: I think the first thing is like to speak to 384 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 6: them as if and like even if you mutually decide 385 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 6: like I don't really know where we go from here 386 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 6: in this friendship, but give them a chance to change. 387 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 6: If you've known someone for any length of time, you 388 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 6: cannot end a friendship if you've not even given them 389 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 6: the opportunities to change their behavior, that isn't healthy communication, 390 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 6: That is not boundary setting. But also, if you want 391 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 6: to end the friendship for whatever reason, communicate it. It 392 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 6: doesn't have to be the perfect conversation. It just needs 393 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 6: to be a conversation. And I think it's the decision 394 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 6: of like, is this a decision or is this a discussion, 395 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 6: you can enter unsure whether to end the friendship. And 396 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 6: I was actually talking to someone the other day about 397 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 6: the fact that I've had a few friendship breakups where 398 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 6: it wasn't the issue that ended it, it was the 399 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 6: argument about the issue that ended it because of how 400 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 6: they communicated. And I just got to a point of like, 401 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 6: I will not be spoken to that way, and the 402 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 6: way you're speaking is not the way a friend speaks 403 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 6: to me. And so if it gets to that point, 404 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 6: if it gets abusive, if it gets like if people 405 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 6: are speaking to you in a way you don't like, 406 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 6: you are entitled to end that conversation. You can say 407 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 6: this conversation is no longer productive, let's return to it 408 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 6: a later date, or you can even end the friendship. 409 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 6: But all you have to say is like this friendship 410 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 6: isn't working anymore, but let the person know. I would 411 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 6: to lead this movement of like stop ghosting your friends. 412 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 6: You if you don't for a guy on a third 413 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 6: date to do this to you, why the hell do 414 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 6: you think it's okay to do it to a five 415 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 6: year friendship. 416 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 2: I want to talk about sort of the fallout of 417 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 2: a friend breakup and like what to do in that 418 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 2: space afterwards, you know, because I know you sort of 419 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 2: talk about like the rituals of processing a romantic breakup. 420 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 2: What do you tell people when they are like, how 421 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 2: do I process this friend breakup? Because especially if you're 422 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 2: like between women right now, like being online, it's so 423 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 2: easy to go over to like an ex friend's Instagram 424 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: and be like, oh, she's beautiful and she's thriving without me, 425 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like immediately she's got a 426 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 2: best friend, and the best friend is more beautiful. The 427 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 2: story I tell myself pretty often is like I was 428 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 2: you know, I deserved it to be left whatever. There 429 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 2: was something like you sort of say in your book, 430 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: like there's something wrong with me, you know, So how 431 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 2: do you see sort of the processing phase of a 432 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 2: friend breakup? 433 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 6: So I think you do have to block them on 434 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 6: social media. I do see that, helf Ham. I do 435 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 6: think if you go over to their page, the only 436 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 6: intention to go over to their page is to make 437 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 6: yourself hurt more, and it's never to feel good stories 438 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 6: in your head. It's not also just one way. If 439 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 6: they don't get access to you in real life, they 440 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 6: don't get access to your social media too. They don't 441 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 6: get to keep tabs on you the same way that 442 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 6: you shouldn't be keeping tabs on them either. And I 443 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 6: think when you have a lack of closure, I think 444 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 6: ultimately the biggest permission I could give anyone going through 445 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 6: a friendship breakup is you are allowed to grieve. And 446 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 6: I is a hierarchy of grief in the book where 447 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 6: like at the top of the poll is like someone 448 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 6: who is grieving a husband, and then it's a boyfriend. 449 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 6: Boyfriend is lower than husband, but you're grieving a friend. 450 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,959 Speaker 6: What does that mean? And so where the shame comes in? 451 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 6: Because if you are so busy feeling shame around the 452 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 6: friendship breakup, you won't give yourself to feel the grief, 453 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 6: to feel the sadness, to feel even the anger around it, 454 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 6: Like you can have some very righteous anger around like 455 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 6: towards the end of the friendship or if you were ghosted, 456 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 6: for example. And then I think then once you go 457 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 6: through the feelings and the emotions in the heartbreak of it, 458 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 6: there is room for learning lessons and what you could 459 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 6: have done differently and how you're going to take that 460 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 6: into your other friendships. 461 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: I'm wondering what your thoughts are on Let's say someone's 462 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 2: been through a friend breakup, and I'm asking this for 463 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 2: personal reasons. I'll admit it, I've been thinking of real 464 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: I've been thinking about reaching out to a friend and saying, 465 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 2: let's grab a coffee, let's have a chat. You know, 466 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 2: are you pro or anti like reaching out to a 467 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 2: friend that you've been broken up or is. 468 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 6: It that you've had a few arguments and you're still 469 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 6: technically friends. 470 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 2: We broke up about a year and maybe a half ago, 471 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 2: and this was similar, like sister friend loved her so dearly, 472 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 2: cared so much about her, like a quick closeness. We 473 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 2: have mutual friends, We run in similar spaces. Like it's 474 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 2: this thing of like you're so right to say if 475 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 2: they don't get access to you in real life and 476 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 2: get access to you online, but when your real lives 477 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 2: are sort of intertwined in a way where you might 478 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: see them at a party or you might run into them. So, yeah, 479 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 2: what's your advice for someone who's asking themselves that? 480 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 6: So what's your goal? Is your goal to be more 481 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 6: civil when you go to mutual friends events or is 482 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 6: it your goal actually to be friends again? 483 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 2: I think my goal is to have some sort of 484 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 2: understanding and to maybe fill in the gaps that I've 485 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 2: been filling in from a distance. Like I said, sort 486 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 2: of with this ability to see someone online and you 487 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: write those stories, but you know those stories aren't based 488 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: in honesty or based in reality. They're probably based in 489 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 2: some like nasty shame, and so yeah, I think it's 490 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: like filling in the gaps and sort of just getting 491 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 2: on a page of mutual understanding and respect. 492 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I don't know. 493 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 2: I'm also scared to reach out and ask because I'm 494 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 2: afraid that they won't be interested in that. 495 00:25:59,240 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 3: Well. 496 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 6: I think the key is if you do reach out, 497 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 6: you have to be able to reach out with no expectations. 498 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 6: And I think it's a very vulnerable thing to do. 499 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 6: It's a very high risk thing to do, and there 500 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 6: is no guarantee that you will get you will get 501 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 6: the outcome you want. But if you're coming at it 502 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 6: with greater understanding, you can even say. I've even had 503 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 6: people send a message saying like, Hey, I'd really like 504 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 6: to go for coffee. I don't necessarily want to be friends. 505 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 6: I just like I've not stopped not being able to 506 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 6: stop thinking about it, and in my mind, the way 507 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,719 Speaker 6: I operate in friendship is if we've ever been friends 508 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 6: for a period of time. I believe in having respect 509 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 6: in the ending, and if I can give you greater 510 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 6: understanding and greater closure, I will do it not because 511 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 6: of how you treated me and the ending, but because 512 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 6: at some point in my life you were there for me. 513 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 6: And if I can end this on with no bad blood, 514 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 6: I would prefer that. And I think that's where I 515 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 6: don't always have. We have a little bit too much 516 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 6: pride and ego to always be the person to reach out. 517 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: But I've always see I have none of that. 518 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm like, no Friday and ego here, let's 519 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 2: just work this out. 520 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 5: Like I've definitely the one being the recipient. 521 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 6: I have always been very kind and appreciative of anyone 522 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 6: who's reached out to me, and even I've said in 523 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 6: the reply, I have a lot of respect for the 524 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 6: fact that you've sent this message because I know that 525 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 6: I am not sure I would have the ability to 526 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:28,239 Speaker 6: send it. 527 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 2: My last question, and this is something we talk a 528 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: lot about on the show, but we talk about sort 529 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 2: of unlearning, right, because I think so many of our 530 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 2: habits in love and relationships are developed through like maybe 531 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 2: watching someone or learning from someone, or listening to a 532 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 2: song or watching a movie that you know teaches us 533 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 2: something that isn't actually productive in love. So what is 534 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 2: like one of the biggest things you've had to unlearn 535 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 2: when it comes to love. 536 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 6: That it needs to be forever for it to count. 537 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: Mmmm say more. 538 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 6: I'm saying that the idea that you have a ten 539 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 6: year friendship and even if it ends in this blowout 540 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 6: fight where you hurt each other to a like at 541 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 6: a level that like neither of you can forget it, 542 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 6: it doesn't the ten years where you had good friendship 543 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 6: the way that we view in our society of like 544 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 6: a failed marriage. Who said the marriage was a failure? Like, 545 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 6: maybe the longevity of a relationship is not the marker 546 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 6: of success. But let's say you have a ten year 547 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 6: marriage and then you end the marriage and you have 548 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 6: a divorce that can be healthier than the forty five 549 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 6: year marriage where you yell and scream at each other 550 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 6: all day every day, but you stayed married. Like that's right, 551 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 6: idea of forever like is the only marker of success, 552 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 6: But like you're not looking at the quality of the 553 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 6: relationship and same friendship friendship breakups are so demonized that 554 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 6: it's like, but why are we staying an expired friend 555 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 6: just for the sake of an old friend? Like, right, 556 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 6: but that person deserves to have that friendship ended equally 557 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 6: so that they can find people who are more aligned 558 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 6: with them, rather than someone who's like gossiping behind their 559 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 6: back and being like, God, every time I see her, 560 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 6: I'm so bored. And this idea that like, long friendships 561 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 6: are better, But it's like, but they're talking about you 562 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 6: behind your back, Like, why do you want a friend 563 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 6: that isn't a friend? Actually? 564 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 2: Right, I really appreciate this idea, and I think you're 565 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 2: totally right, Like the timeline doesn't make it good or bad, 566 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 2: and that the friendship that you shared is still meaningful 567 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 2: and important and was surely beautiful, And just because you're 568 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 2: not in that moment right now today, it doesn't make 569 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: you both a failure. 570 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 6: And also I think at the time that that friendship existed, 571 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 6: you likely needed it in a way that you might 572 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 6: not now. And just because you're a different person now 573 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 6: doesn't mean that that friendship didn't keep you afloat in 574 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 6: some way at some point in your life. 575 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 3: How do you feel now, like, how are you? Oh 576 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 3: my god, like that breakup? H I miss her still? 577 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. 578 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 3: I miss even if she still felt even if she 579 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 3: still does feel the way that she's. 580 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: The thing is, I have no idea who she miss anymore. 581 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 2: You're romanticizing it, of course, probably, Yeah, And I knew 582 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 2: I miss like the good parts I do. I miss 583 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: holding her hand, I miss being her therapist because she's 584 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 2: so smart and I'm so emotional, and she really believed 585 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 2: in me in a way that I didn't believe in myself. 586 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 2: Because again, she has this sort of like tunnel vision 587 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 2: eye on the prize I'm gonna get what I want mindset, 588 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: and I feel a lot of like guilt and I 589 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 2: make myself small. And I was like totally inspired by her, 590 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 2: you know, and by her like determination. 591 00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 4: Would you be friends with her again? 592 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 2: I think it would be really hard for me to 593 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 2: be friends with her again. And here's the thing, I 594 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 2: have to accept who I am. For a long time, 595 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 2: I was really trying to be someone I wasn't. That 596 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 2: does not mean I think you're my enemy, but it 597 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 2: does mean I can't really have you in my life 598 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 2: so closely. 599 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, So you're okay, You're okay. 600 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 2: Not I'm okay, but I'm sad and I miss her. Yeah, 601 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 2: and so like you know, I'm I'm still totally finding 602 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 2: confidence in my voice again. And this was also too 603 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,959 Speaker 2: kind of the whole point of the boys sober thing 604 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 2: is to like, who are you when you are alone? 605 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 2: And I really have to I really had to figure 606 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 2: that out because I'm not in any codependent relationships now, 607 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 2: and I think that's what I miss about her, is 608 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 2: I miss like that deep like reliance because that reliance 609 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 2: feels safe for me, even though I know it will 610 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 2: run its course. But the first six months of a 611 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 2: codependent relationship, oh, it's amazing, but you do lose yourself. 612 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 2: It's very easy to lose yourself completely. 613 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 4: We need to get you a cat. 614 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: I'm allergic dog. I know people keep suggesting that. 615 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 4: Dogs talks take a lot of work. 616 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: They take a lot more work. 617 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 4: I want to need to be home for it. Cat, 618 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 4: That's what I was saying. 619 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 3: Cat, because they're more independent, right, but they can warm 620 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 3: up you. 621 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 4: We'll have to get you like a pet. 622 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 2: Rock, you know, oh, goldfish? You know, a goldfish would 623 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 2: be it would die. I would be gone, it would die. 624 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: How to kill it? I'm not gonna lie. 625 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 5: This was a vulnerable topic for me. 626 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 2: I'm still figuring out how to move through friendship in 627 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 2: the best way, and I'm really thankful Michelle reminded me 628 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 2: that just because a friendship ends doesn't mean it was 629 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 2: a failure. I wish I could say this is a 630 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 2: closed chapter for me, but I'm still finding my way 631 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 2: through learning how to be a good friend, learning how 632 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 2: to be honest, learning how to set boundaries. 633 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: I'm figuring it out. 634 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 2: But the good thing is there's no timeline on learning, 635 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: and there's no timeline on healing, and that's okay. I'll 636 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 2: talk to you all next week. Boy Sover is a 637 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 2: production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Hope Ordered. Our 638 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,719 Speaker 2: executive producers are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our supervising 639 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 2: producer is Emily Meronoff, engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing 640 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 2: and mastering by Aboo Zafar. If you liked this episode, 641 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 2: please tell a friend and don't forget to rate, review, 642 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 2: and subscribe to boy Sober on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 643 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 2: and wherever you get your favorite shows.