Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, who is this? This is Khalila Holt, your producer.
Speaker 1: Well, hello, hello, nice to have you back in the studio.
Speaker 2: Welcome, Nice to be reunited in this auditory space.
Speaker 1: Yes, indeed it is. Have a seat please.
Speaker 2: I'm already sitting, but thank you. Yes, we are going
Speaker 2: to revisit some favorite episodes this spring.
Speaker 1: Yes, I couldn't be more excited.
Speaker 2: Do I sound not excited at all? But yeah?
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes my enthusiasm doesn't come across, and I'm
Speaker 1: always surprised. Like same, Like in photos, I think that
Speaker 1: I'm smiling, but then when I see the photos, not
Speaker 1: only am I not smiling at all, it looks like
Speaker 1: I'm scowling.
Speaker 2: I have a really hard time showing enthusiasm too. I've
Speaker 2: noticed that often when I try to like really lean
Speaker 2: into enthusiasm in my voice, it sounds like I'm being sarcastic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I am excited, and I'm going to approve
Speaker 1: me too. I'm going to prove to you my excitement
Speaker 1: and my enthusiasms as this conversation goes on.
Speaker 2: Okay, I look forward to that. Yes, and we're gonna
Speaker 2: also check in with our former guests, because you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of them have had some changes in the
Speaker 2: years since.
Speaker 1: Whereas stories end, lives continue, and.
Speaker 2: So I do end eventually.
Speaker 1: Oh God, thanks for bringing the whole thing down.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's everyone's thinking it all right.
Speaker 1: Anyway, who are we talking about today?
Speaker 2: So today we're gonna revisit the episode Jonathan about your
Speaker 2: friend Tony from our very first season.
Speaker 1: I love it. It's been a long time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was my favorite episode that season. Something about
Speaker 2: it just really moved me.
Speaker 1: Huh.
Speaker 2: Again, it sounds like I'm being sarcastic, but I'm serious.
Speaker 2: I really liked it.
Speaker 1: No, no, I believe you. It's a It's a personal
Speaker 1: favorite of mine because Tony is one of my best friends,
Speaker 1: and he's an interesting man and his life beyond the
Speaker 1: story continued to be interesting and flow in all kinds
Speaker 1: of unexpected and original directions, so I was really excited
Speaker 1: to check in with him after we kind of what's
Speaker 1: the thing that they do in movies? Like after the
Speaker 1: rap party of this episode, and actually, speaking of rap parties,
Speaker 1: Yes you want me to do some rapping?
Speaker 2: No? No, thank you? Okay, I have a fun, little
Speaker 2: fun story from.
Speaker 1: Production, Oh please.
Speaker 2: Which is that there's a part in this where one
Speaker 2: of Tony's godson says it's over for you, you old sausage.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: When we celebrated the first season, I, at the suggestion
Speaker 2: of Chris Neery, one of the producers on the first season, right,
Speaker 2: went and got a cake and I asked them to
Speaker 2: put on It's over you old sausage.
Speaker 1: I do remember this, and I thank you. I thank
Speaker 1: you again for that. But if you had to do
Speaker 1: it all over again, if you were to make edits,
Speaker 1: might you say it's not over you a young sausage.
Speaker 2: It's still going you young sausage.
Speaker 1: So enjoy, Yeah, enjoy. We'll check in with Tony at
Speaker 1: the end of the episode, and not to overpromise, but
Speaker 1: there's just a lot that's gone on in his life
Speaker 1: and a lot that continues to go on. Yes, but
Speaker 1: first things first, a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3: Did hi?
Speaker 2: This is Khalila from Gimlet Media. Please hold for Jonathan Goldstein.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, who is this.
Speaker 2: Khalila from Gimblet Media. Please hold for Jonathan Goldstein?
Speaker 4: Please hold? Yeah, Wow, Hello, Hello. How nice of you
Speaker 4: to take the call from yourself. Oh hey, Jackie, you
Speaker 4: seem surprised that you called me so to hear from you.
Speaker 5: You.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that I had you on my calendar.
Speaker 1: But this is great. How are you doing? It's been
Speaker 1: so busy. It's nice to decompress and have a normal conversation.
Speaker 1: How's it going from Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein and
Speaker 1: this is Heavyweight Today's episode.
Speaker 6: Tony, Paul, how are you very good?
Speaker 1: Thanks?
Speaker 3: I was wondering if you would be up for meeting
Speaker 3: me for an hour?
Speaker 7: Okay, what about I was.
Speaker 3: Absent for most of your life, and you know, I've
Speaker 3: always felt sad about it.
Speaker 1: Here's something you don't hear every day. A godfather awkwardly
Speaker 1: asking out his thirty one year old godson on a
Speaker 1: god date.
Speaker 3: I know you're I know your busy as life, mouthed father.
Speaker 3: Who and but I think you'd spare an hour like
Speaker 3: Monday or Tuesday night, you know.
Speaker 7: Unfortunately, a week in advance not to I don't know what.
Speaker 1: The hell was not the godfather being blown off as
Speaker 1: my friend Tony, the realization that he needed to be
Speaker 1: a better godfather came suddenly. It was like if Vido
Speaker 1: Corleone woke up one morning and thought, you know, godfathering
Speaker 1: should be more than just decapitating horses, and then picked
Speaker 1: up a rotary phone and asked Johnny Fontaine out on
Speaker 1: an ice cream date. But to explain how Tony got
Speaker 1: to this point, let's go back to the beginning. It
Speaker 1: all started when Tony and I were catching up and
Speaker 1: regarding work. How is that going good?
Speaker 5: It's really great. I've like, I'm actually enjoying the process
Speaker 5: I'm making this film, which is I think the really
Speaker 5: amazing thing about the past year.
Speaker 1: This past year has been a hard one for Tony.
Speaker 1: He's recently divorced and still adjusting the house that has
Speaker 1: been settled.
Speaker 5: Yeah, everything is settled. Everything is settled. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I first met Tony in college when he was a
Speaker 1: young film student with manic energy, Jean Shallatt, curly black hair,
Speaker 1: and gray clothes that always smelt of Greek food. After college,
Speaker 1: we became roommates and on the weekend his would visit.
Speaker 1: She referred to me as gatzo'meli's mano everyaki, which I
Speaker 1: think translates loosely as the alley cat haired little jew.
Speaker 1: But I didn't mind because whenever she showed up, she
Speaker 1: brought Homemateespencopita and Terra mussolada. Tony would wash down these
Speaker 1: Grecian delights with copious amounts of booze. Pretty soon he
Speaker 1: started washing everything down with booze. There's an image from
Speaker 1: that time that stuck with me. Tony had decided to
Speaker 1: join me at the gym after downing a half bottle
Speaker 1: of vodka. I remember him wailing on the heavy bag
Speaker 1: in his undershirt and gray jeans, looking a little like
Speaker 1: a kid, pounding on the floor, fed up with everything. Eventually,
Speaker 1: Tony turned to harder drugs like heroin, and soon after
Speaker 1: that we stopped being roommates. Tony went to rehab and
Speaker 1: after he got out, spent some years putting his life
Speaker 1: back together. He had a few relationships, and then he
Speaker 1: met Natalie. Natalie was smart and loved to write, and
Speaker 1: when Tony hugged her, she disappeared into his body. Tony's
Speaker 1: a big guy with a thick black beard covering his
Speaker 1: boyish face, and Natalie was apple cheeked and glamorous. I
Speaker 1: like being around them. One time, while walking by a
Speaker 1: curiosity shop, I saw a comically small ping pong table
Speaker 1: in the window. Immediately I thought of Tony and Natalie.
Speaker 1: I imagined the two of them in their kitchen, smacking
Speaker 1: the little ball back and forth together and laughing. During
Speaker 1: their wedding vows, Natalie said, I vowed to grow old
Speaker 1: with you, but most of all, to grow young with you,
Speaker 1: and Tony interrupted her right in the middle, eyes welling
Speaker 1: up to say me too. It was like he'd blown
Speaker 1: his youth but was getting another chance. But then, at
Speaker 1: some point, around three years in, things started to get tougher.
Speaker 1: Tony spent a lot of time locked in his studio,
Speaker 1: working obsessively on his movies, and Natalie started to feel
Speaker 1: hamstrung by montreal It's smallness, the lack of opportunities. They
Speaker 1: wanted a baby, but were having a hard time with it.
Speaker 1: And then Tony's dad died, making him the sole caretaker
Speaker 1: of his mother, a woman who didn't shy away from
Speaker 1: espousing strong opinions about her son's personal life. All of
Speaker 1: this was hard on him and Natalie.
Speaker 5: She was not happy. She was not happy, She was
Speaker 5: not happy. She just didn't want to be here.
Speaker 1: Natalie wanted to start a new life in a new place,
Speaker 1: but Tony felt happily stuck in the old one and
Speaker 1: he couldn't leave his mother all alone. So when Natalie
Speaker 1: decided to leave town, he knew he couldn't go with her.
Speaker 1: Was there ever a conversation in which you were both
Speaker 1: trying to envision a way in which you could leave
Speaker 1: the city.
Speaker 5: No, because there was no way.
Speaker 1: Like even with your mother to go with you.
Speaker 5: Why is that no?
Speaker 1: Tony's mother is an eighty four year old Greek woman
Speaker 1: with little English whose only hobbies are meticulously cleaning her
Speaker 1: toaster of and wringing her hands while frowning and so
Speaker 1: in here lies the heart of Tony's current problem. Before
Speaker 1: they separated, Tony and Natalie were trying to have a baby,
Speaker 1: and now he finds himself alone, middle aged, and worried
Speaker 1: he's missed his last chance to have a kid.
Speaker 5: I don't think there's a point to anything if you
Speaker 5: don't have a relationship with a young person. How do
Speaker 5: you mean if I sit here in the dark thinking
Speaker 5: about it and realizing, you know, I'm forty six years
Speaker 5: old and I live alone, and I'm not probably not
Speaker 5: going to have kids, and who the fuck gives a
Speaker 5: shit if I live or die aside from my mother
Speaker 5: and a few friends, But really, who gives a shit.
Speaker 5: You know, who's going to feel a loss. I'm not
Speaker 5: saying that in an egotistical way, But who do I
Speaker 5: mean something to? Whose life have I enriched? Like? I
Speaker 5: don't think I don't understand what there is to do
Speaker 5: here if you're not somehow helping or being connected to
Speaker 5: a younger person.
Speaker 1: Lately, Tony's been thinking about three young people he had
Speaker 1: been connected to, his estranged god children. Tony admits to
Speaker 1: screwing up those three relationships during three difficult chapters in
Speaker 1: his life drug addiction, rehab, and divorce. What if you
Speaker 1: were to try to get them back in your life?
Speaker 5: I'm not sure what difference I can make and somebody's
Speaker 5: it's kind of like, hey, yeah, here I am now,
Speaker 5: I'm ready for you, Like I haven't been here all
Speaker 5: these years, but hey here I am now. You know.
Speaker 1: Not hearing my friend give up on himself so easily,
Speaker 1: I decided to suggest something bold. Why not try reaching
Speaker 1: out to the god kids he lost?
Speaker 5: Now? I mean, I actually do want to have a relationship.
Speaker 5: I do.
Speaker 1: You don't know until you at least try.
Speaker 5: Right, I'm I'm I'm open to anything.
Speaker 1: And do you have their phone numbers? I get him
Speaker 1: to tell me about them, Beginning with the first Paul.
Speaker 5: I was sixteen years old. It was very formal. I
Speaker 5: held this kid in a Greek Orthodox baptism ceremony for
Speaker 5: an hour. My arm almost fell off. Babies are really heavy,
Speaker 5: especially when you have one arm to hold onto them
Speaker 5: and have a candle in the other. Yeah, but it
Speaker 5: was cute. You know. I was really young, and I
Speaker 5: was close to their family, but I was sixteen. Within
Speaker 5: like two years, I was a raving, lunatic, alcoholic drug addict.
Speaker 5: I didn't see much of him or anybody at all
Speaker 5: from the family for quite a few years. And I
Speaker 5: didn't think about it much, that's for sure.
Speaker 1: And this god kid, what's his name. His name is Paul,
Speaker 1: and Paul would be about thirty years old.
Speaker 5: Now, uh, yeah, he's thirty one. And here's the thing.
Speaker 5: I've never actually talked to him about about how he
Speaker 5: felt having an absence he godfather. But he beat me
Speaker 5: at an arm wrestle, and he I think he really
Speaker 5: enjoyed that.
Speaker 1: And when you say he enjoyed that, he enjoyed hanging
Speaker 1: out and spending time with you, or he enjoyed beating you,
Speaker 1: enjoyed beating me for being such a crappy godfather.
Speaker 5: That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is there a particular question that you would want
Speaker 1: to pose to him or to all of them?
Speaker 5: Do you hate me? Like? Does it mean anything that
Speaker 5: I'm somebody's godfather because I said so or somebody said so,
Speaker 5: or we did something long time ago. It can mean
Speaker 5: nothing or it can mean something. You know, Godfather's a
Speaker 5: big fucking deal if you think about it. It has
Speaker 5: this spiritual implication God right, it's not toilet father.
Speaker 1: And so, with my encouragement, Tony picked up the phone
Speaker 1: and reached out to Paul, which brings us back to
Speaker 1: the phone call you heard.
Speaker 3: Earlier on Saturday.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that's that'll be easiest.
Speaker 3: Okay are you? Are you up to this? You don't
Speaker 3: feel like I don't want to impose on you like.
Speaker 7: And you said you know you feel bad. I don't
Speaker 7: think you should. There's nothing to feel bad about. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 7: but yeah, give me a call the weekend and we'll
Speaker 7: try to figure something out.
Speaker 3: Okay, great, I'll call you perfect right, sounds good. YouTube.
Speaker 1: On Saturday, Tony called with no response, He reached out
Speaker 1: again and again. Eventually he gave up. Tony and Paul
Speaker 1: never got together. Tony and I reconvene, and I tried
Speaker 1: to bolster his spirits. Maybe things would go better with godchild.
Speaker 1: The second Zoe.
Speaker 5: She is the daughter of a rehab buddy who was
Speaker 5: actually also a drug dealer here in Montreal when I
Speaker 5: was dealing in Montreal and we met in rehab in Ottawa,
Speaker 5: and he asked me, do you want to be her godfather?
Speaker 5: I said sure, I said you guys in baptizer. I said, no,
Speaker 5: be her godfather? Okay, great, And so it was just
Speaker 5: like that. So that was easy, yeah, but it was meaningful.
Speaker 5: I was happy to do whatever was going to be
Speaker 5: required with me. And I did see the kid, you know,
Speaker 5: when she was young, and then I moved to Montreal
Speaker 5: and so she basically grew up without me.
Speaker 1: In the intervening years, Tony's only seen Zoe a couple
Speaker 1: times when she comes to town. She doesn't bother looking
Speaker 1: him up.
Speaker 5: Because I remember how I used to see people that
Speaker 5: were like, never mind forties. Yeah, like people in their
Speaker 5: thirties were crusty, you know, a yellow tonyailed you know,
Speaker 5: old people, and occasionally, you know, I get like she
Speaker 5: likes something on my Facebook page and I'll be like ooh.
Speaker 1: But Tony wants more than that. Since Zoe still lives
Speaker 1: in Ottawa, just a two hour drive away, I suggest
Speaker 1: to go visit her. Maybe it isn't too late. But
Speaker 1: after his failed attempt with Paul, he isn't sure she'll
Speaker 1: even want to see him, so I offered a road
Speaker 1: trip down with him for emotional support. You know, the
Speaker 1: whole purpose of this thing is for you not to
Speaker 1: be a dead meat.
Speaker 5: God Dad, I know. I feel really bad. It's my fault.
Speaker 1: It's Zowa's last week of high school and Tony's arranged
Speaker 1: to pick her up after her day of finals.
Speaker 5: You don't mind driving a little fast to you. Don't
Speaker 5: go like snail past grandma style.
Speaker 1: That's my style, No grandma style.
Speaker 5: Don't do that.
Speaker 1: When we get to the school, Zoe's waiting outside.
Speaker 5: All right, here we go. You're feeling good. I'm feeling good.
Speaker 3: There we get, here we go, Here we're weird.
Speaker 6: Hello, Hello, how are you?
Speaker 1: Zoe is eighteen. She's wearing a Yin and Yang choker
Speaker 1: around her neck and a pink scrunchy in her hair.
Speaker 5: So how's everything?
Speaker 8: How are you really good, almost done high school, the
Speaker 8: final Frontier.
Speaker 5: So let's go to the park.
Speaker 1: Would you like some candy?
Speaker 5: Tom Zilli?
Speaker 1: As Tony's emotional support system, I thought it might be
Speaker 1: helpful to bring refreshments. We drive along, chewing in silence,
Speaker 1: and then Tony decides to break the ice.
Speaker 5: I have a really disgusting story to tell you.
Speaker 8: Well, can you contextualize what discussing?
Speaker 5: Oh my god, I'm only thinking about it because it
Speaker 5: happened right around here.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I don't like where this is going.
Speaker 5: A friend of mine has been color electing his vomit
Speaker 5: for the past twenty years in a gigantic tin like
Speaker 5: a gigantic metal drama in the basement.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, what heck?
Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting.
Speaker 8: That's so terrible.
Speaker 4: Why would you?
Speaker 8: Why would you bring something like that up right now?
Speaker 4: So like, how did you find out about that?
Speaker 1: So many questions and fun fact, the vomit house is
Speaker 1: on Ralph Street. Google map it. It's right there next
Speaker 1: to Brown's inlet the park we're on our way to.
Speaker 8: I've only been to this park once before, and.
Speaker 4: That was a weird day.
Speaker 5: Explain.
Speaker 8: I started dating this guy and like the first time
Speaker 8: we ever hung out outside of school was in this park.
Speaker 8: We were on those swings and I just remember being like, Wow,
Speaker 8: this is really weird, like this is a date.
Speaker 2: So I guess that was like my first date.
Speaker 1: We find a picnic table beside the playground where young
Speaker 1: mothers are playing with their babies. Tony and Zoe sit
Speaker 1: side by side. She fiddling with a strand of hair
Speaker 1: and he's staring at the table, sweeping pebbles of sand.
Speaker 1: Back and forth. The two of them catch up. It
Speaker 1: turns out Zoe's taking improv classes and Tony's taken improv
Speaker 1: classes too.
Speaker 5: Back and forth. Ah, I'd love to see that. I'd
Speaker 5: love to see that.
Speaker 4: You'd like my troop.
Speaker 2: I think you'd like those guys a lot.
Speaker 1: Being both a friend who wants to encourage bonding as
Speaker 1: well as a lover of show business, I ask if
Speaker 1: they might improvise a scene or two.
Speaker 5: This is my favorite bench.
Speaker 8: It's funny because it's also my favorite bench, and I've
Speaker 8: actually never seen you sitting here.
Speaker 1: But instead of the comedic romp I'd hoped for, I
Speaker 1: get a sluggish five minute piece of Samuel Bihetti in theater.
Speaker 8: So I guess what I'm saying is you'll either have
Speaker 8: to move to the bench that's beside mine or beside his.
Speaker 1: And scene I thought, like, I'm probaly supposed to be
Speaker 1: like Funny well because he.
Speaker 5: Usually his energy. And you're on stage and you're like,
Speaker 5: you're doing stupid shit and people are laughing, You're not.
Speaker 1: Laughing, and in my heart it feels like Christmas morning
Speaker 1: on Ralph Street. As Tony and Zoe begin to bond.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, so I'm playing look at it.
Speaker 1: They're having fun, but Tony's still thinking about godfatherhood. Tentatively,
Speaker 1: he brings it up.
Speaker 5: I the godfather Traditionally, Well, godfather's supposed to to write
Speaker 5: spiritual instruction. And I wasn't there when you were really young,
Speaker 5: when you were told when you were young, this is Tony,
Speaker 5: he's your godfather. Do you remember that?
Speaker 2: I always knew that you would.
Speaker 8: You had this connection to my parents that was really valuable,
Speaker 8: So by extensionally you'd be valuable to me, even though
Speaker 8: I didn't know you.
Speaker 5: That Well, Yeah, what what can I offer you at
Speaker 5: this point? From this point onward in a formal fashion,
Speaker 5: I don't know what you hope for me to provide
Speaker 5: for you? Is like to provide for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Oh, I mean it's a two way street.
Speaker 8: I mean I can't just like take so much and
Speaker 8: not give anything to you.
Speaker 5: So that's the point, the point, you know, that's the point,
Speaker 5: is that I'm here for you.
Speaker 1: That is the point with a God child, not so
Speaker 1: much with a God adult. The children's book is called
Speaker 1: The Giving Tree, not the Giving and Taking Tree. Children
Speaker 1: aren't self conscious. They don't find it weird to take
Speaker 1: without giving anything in return, but adults do. I mean,
Speaker 1: getting to feel like pushing Tony to reconnect with his
Speaker 1: God children might have been foolhardy. Tony can't just insert
Speaker 1: himself into a past he missed out on. And as
Speaker 1: for the future, Zoe's getting ready to go off to college.
Speaker 1: She's at a point in life when actual parents see
Speaker 1: less and less of their kids, never mind godparents.
Speaker 5: She was a little bit country and he was a
Speaker 5: little bit rock and roll. That was a song, I'm
Speaker 5: a little bit countrys I'm a little bit.
Speaker 1: As Tony sings both parts of Adannie and Marie duet,
Speaker 1: Zoe watches him with a big smile on her face.
Speaker 1: It's clear they really enjoy each other. And the afternoon
Speaker 1: goes well, But as far as the god parental relationship
Speaker 1: Tony wants, it feels like it just might be too late.
Speaker 5: I'm really impressed. I think I've got a pretty fucking
Speaker 5: firm alled on things well.
Speaker 8: I mean, if you're ever in dire need for like
Speaker 8: a caregiver when you're old and can't go to the
Speaker 8: bathroom or something like, I could help you.
Speaker 1: Only one godchild to go, Will Tony be a godfather
Speaker 1: or a toilet father? Is the cat still in the cradle?
Speaker 1: And if so, will he scratch Tony's eyes out when
Speaker 1: roused from his godfatherless slumber. We'll find out after these
Speaker 1: important messages from our sponsors. Tony's first godchild, Paul, didn't
Speaker 1: have the time for a relationship, and his second godchild,
Speaker 1: Zoe had outgrown the whole godfather goddaughter thing. That left
Speaker 1: him one last chance, nine year old Nicholas godchild.
Speaker 5: The third Nicholas godchild number three is Nicholas, the son
Speaker 5: of my cousin.
Speaker 1: This one is especially challenging for Tony because, unlike with
Speaker 1: Paul and Zoe, Tony's not the only godparent in the picture.
Speaker 1: Tony's ex wife, Natalie was warm and likable. When they
Speaker 1: started dating. She helped him reconnect with his family so
Speaker 1: much so though when Nicholas was born, his mom, a
Speaker 1: cousin Tony wasn't even especially close to, asked them both
Speaker 1: to be a godparents. Tony and Natalie were together at
Speaker 1: Nicholas's baptism.
Speaker 5: I was holding him and he was really was He
Speaker 5: was really upset until I took him, and he was
Speaker 5: quiet the whole time, And everybody was kind of spooked
Speaker 5: by the fact that he was suddenly so quiet m
Speaker 5: hm when I was holding him. So there was this
Speaker 5: whole kind of energy around, like, oh, why is this
Speaker 5: power Tony has over Nicholas, or why is he so quiet?
Speaker 5: And everybody seemed to make a kind of a strange
Speaker 5: impression on people. And it felt good to sort of
Speaker 5: be I guess, for whatever reason and nothing to do
Speaker 5: with me, somehow this kid felt soothed or calmed by me.
Speaker 5: And we baptized the kid. We had a big party,
Speaker 5: and then we started. We were there every year, like
Speaker 5: three or four times a year, which is pretty good.
Speaker 5: But it was all good, but it was all about
Speaker 5: being with Natalie.
Speaker 1: Natalie was the initiator. She's the one who planned the Godparents,
Speaker 1: stuff like trips with Nicholas to the movies in the museum.
Speaker 1: Nicholas loved Natalie and related to her and Tony as
Speaker 1: a unit. So when that unit split up, Tony couldn't
Speaker 1: bring himself to keep visiting Nicholas and his mom. It
Speaker 1: reminded him too much of Natalie.
Speaker 5: I didn't feel like seeing them. I didn't feel like
Speaker 5: going to her house because I always went there with Natalie.
Speaker 1: But Nicholas's mother continued to reach out. Nicholas really misses you,
Speaker 1: she'd write. Eventually, she suggested they all get together on
Speaker 1: neutral ground, her sister's house.
Speaker 5: So we did. We set up a surprise dinner, which
Speaker 5: was about two months ago, and I went over and
Speaker 5: they were really happy to see me. But at the
Speaker 5: same time, I noticed Nicholas's first reaction. He was kind
Speaker 5: of shocked, and I could see that all this stuff
Speaker 5: went through his eyes, and then he put on this
Speaker 5: kind of smiley, happy guy thing. I could read it
Speaker 5: all in his face right away.
Speaker 1: And you think that was because Natalie wasn't there. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Tony's afraid that Nicholas won't want a relationship with him
Speaker 1: that doesn't include Natalie. Afraid that maybe he's not the
Speaker 1: godparent that Nicholas wants, But he also doesn't want to
Speaker 1: repeat the same mistakes, so he screws up his courage
Speaker 1: and goes back over for dinner, hoping he and Nicholas
Speaker 1: can connect again. But before Tony gets a chance to
Speaker 1: sit down, the very first words out of Nicholas's mouth.
Speaker 5: Naldie, she's She's okay.
Speaker 9: If he just couldn't get back with her, that would
Speaker 9: be a relief.
Speaker 5: Why would that be a relief?
Speaker 1: I want to see her again, never get.
Speaker 5: To see her. Yeah, that's true. I only see you,
Speaker 5: and that's not an you will see her again. Then
Speaker 5: she says, I because she's in Australia. Actually she's in
Speaker 5: New Zealand.
Speaker 9: You don't want to be in the places she is, right, Well,
Speaker 9: I don't want.
Speaker 5: To be in New Zealand because it's far away from
Speaker 5: everything that I do. My mother is here. My mother's
Speaker 5: an old lady, she's eighty five years old and she
Speaker 5: needs me. She can't live alone, so I can't go anywhere.
Speaker 5: So it's finally he doesn't want to be here.
Speaker 9: It's over for you.
Speaker 1: It's over for you.
Speaker 9: Out sausage.
Speaker 5: It looks like that, but you never know. I'm not
Speaker 5: in love with anybody else.
Speaker 1: They sit down on the couch and Tony faces the
Speaker 1: thing that's hardest for him to talk about even with adults,
Speaker 1: let alone a child.
Speaker 5: So are you going to be sad if you don't
Speaker 5: see her again? A bit? A bit?
Speaker 9: I can't, just kidding a lot.
Speaker 5: Is there anything that you want to ask me or
Speaker 5: about Natalie or anything?
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 9: Did a part of did you feel like a part
Speaker 9: of your heart broke up to pieces?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 4: You did?
Speaker 5: Yeah, very much? A lot.
Speaker 9: Do you miss her a lot?
Speaker 5: Yeah? I do.
Speaker 9: Well you should have. You should have said this, come
Speaker 9: back whenever you come. You could come back whenever you want,
Speaker 9: or just say or just say sorry or something.
Speaker 10: Yeah, I did, okay, I said sorry, and so did she.
Speaker 10: She had things to be sorry about too, And then
Speaker 10: I said come back for a long time, I said,
Speaker 10: come back whenever you want. And I think I think
Speaker 10: she's decided not to. I think she's decided.
Speaker 9: Maybe it's because Post Canada takes a long time to
Speaker 9: get a note, really long.
Speaker 5: No, But I read her on the internet.
Speaker 9: Oh Internet, Oh that makes more sense, I thought you.
Speaker 9: Brian from postcreada.
Speaker 1: Tony's putting away his own feelings and focusing on Nicholas's,
Speaker 1: which is a very godfatherly thing to do. And Nicholas,
Speaker 1: for his part, seems to be straining on his emotional
Speaker 1: tiptoes to try to reach Tony, and together they meet
Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle.
Speaker 5: Do you remember when I, you know, I baptized you, right, yeah,
Speaker 5: and you were crying, you were really upset. I had
Speaker 5: to pick you up. When I picked you up, if
Speaker 5: you went totally quiet, and everybody was like, he's so quiet,
Speaker 5: and everybody said, you you made him calm, And I thought,
Speaker 5: that's cool. Maybe that's what godfathers are supposed to do.
Speaker 5: They're supposed to make people calm and be like everything's okay,
Speaker 5: don't worry about it, you know. But let me ask
Speaker 5: you something. Yeah, what kind of godfather do you want.
Speaker 4: Me to be?
Speaker 9: I wanted you to be the same thing as you
Speaker 9: are right now, which is what you're a really good godfather.
Speaker 5: I am.
Speaker 9: You're pretty good.
Speaker 5: Thanks man. I appreciate that. That's very nice.
Speaker 9: You're really good your godfather.
Speaker 5: That's awesome, cool man.
Speaker 1: And with that, Tony was a godfather because when your
Speaker 1: godchild tells you you're a godfather. You're a godfather.
Speaker 6: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 1: When I talked to Tony a couple of weeks later,
Speaker 1: he had already seen Nicholas again. They went to visit
Speaker 1: Tony's mom. He says she liked having a kid around
Speaker 1: to wait on to serve spin a copita.
Speaker 5: She's laughing at her heart.
Speaker 9: This is the best day that I ever had.
Speaker 5: It's only just begun. Now that the first batchers returning
Speaker 5: to it's goodwill home, Now that the last month's rent
Speaker 5: is skiming with.
Speaker 10: The damage to pos take this moment to just.
Speaker 2: S if we met, if we Turke.
Speaker 10: Felt around for from things.
Speaker 1: Accident recording.
Speaker 5: Have you wait to update?
Speaker 1: Jonathan Goldstein Fast Time video.
Speaker 5: Hey hey, let me just uh let me show you
Speaker 5: what's happening here.
Speaker 3: Uh huh.
Speaker 5: So it's recording on the MacBook MIC. You're getting the
Speaker 5: MacBook MIC. You're getting the iPhone like six inches from
Speaker 5: my mouth.
Speaker 1: You know what you're doing. You know what Jackie Cohen
Speaker 1: would say, huh fuck you? Well what she say she
Speaker 1: would be like, look at you, you think you need
Speaker 1: three microphones?
Speaker 5: Well, you have to say is so important.
Speaker 1: Because everyone wants to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it was always as high by the way,
Speaker 5: say hi to you so nice. I told her i'd
Speaker 5: be talking to you. And how is Zoe.
Speaker 4: Great?
Speaker 5: I mean, she's you know, she's twenty eight now, oh my,
Speaker 5: and and she's been dating a nice Greek boy since
Speaker 5: then more or less. You're kidding, No, I'm not kidding.
Speaker 5: And he's great, he's awesome. She didn't move far from home.
Speaker 5: She has like a great job, and I was sure
Speaker 5: she would move to Montreal like all her friends did
Speaker 5: and everybody moved to Montreal, but she never did. And
Speaker 5: I admire that because she's really building a strong foundation
Speaker 5: and she's very happy.
Speaker 1: That's wonderful. I'm so glad to hear that.
Speaker 5: And Nicholas is like amazing. I think I've told you.
Speaker 5: He's a track athlete, like a star athlete. Really yeah,
Speaker 5: he's graduated in high school. He's yeah, and he's like
Speaker 5: coaching me now, and he's just turned into a really
Speaker 5: amazing like resilient, like deals with all kinds of hardship,
Speaker 5: really maturely like the total opposite of me. Like he like,
Speaker 5: I don't I don't know, he says, he gets spiritual
Speaker 5: guidance from me, But I don't know what that would
Speaker 5: be or if he's just blowing smoke up my ass.
Speaker 1: Old, that's you guys have a special connection.
Speaker 5: But that that's we do. We laugh a lot, like
Speaker 5: we have a good relationship. We have a really good time.
Speaker 1: That's so nice. So how are you? I mean, you
Speaker 1: look well, thanks, so do you?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 1: Well, you don't have to say that, but you do.
Speaker 5: I mean, basically, I'm okay. I'm a three and three
Speaker 5: and a half months into the stay here, which is
Speaker 5: going to be a year.
Speaker 1: Wait a second, So why don't you explain what here is?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 5: Of course I have to do that. Here is the
Speaker 5: Clear Sky Meditation and Study Center. It's like a Buddhist
Speaker 5: based retreat center in the rocky mountains of Canada, and
Speaker 5: it's where where I live with twelve other people who
Speaker 5: are permanent, well long term residents, and I'm trying it
Speaker 5: out for a year. I'm living in like kind a
Speaker 5: pseudo monastic situation. And there's deer everywhere and they just
Speaker 5: stand like ten feet away and like stare at you
Speaker 5: before they dart off. There's coyotes and like howling like
Speaker 5: thirty feet from the building at night. It's really beautiful.
Speaker 5: It's tough. It's tough here, it's tiring, it's not for everybody.
Speaker 1: Could you just explain a little about how you found
Speaker 1: out about this place.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I owe this to my former mother in law,
Speaker 5: Natalie's mom. Actually, just a couple of years into my
Speaker 5: relationship with Natalie, I was looking for a place to
Speaker 5: meditate and she picked up a flyer from this place
Speaker 5: she used to go to yoga and said, this guy
Speaker 5: is supposed to be good. And then when I showed up,
Speaker 5: I realized, oh, this is traditional like religious Buddhism. And
Speaker 5: my first reaction was I I no, I don't want
Speaker 5: I didn't I came to the wrong place. This is
Speaker 5: not this is not way. I don't think so, basically.
Speaker 5: But he was a very down to or a teacher,
Speaker 5: and he just talked and made a lot of sense
Speaker 5: to me, and I connected really really quickly with them.
Speaker 1: And so, what what is the path that you're that
Speaker 1: you're on right now? You're thinking you're staying there for
Speaker 1: a year, but that is in service to possibly staying
Speaker 1: there forever.
Speaker 5: Possibly anything is possible right now, like at this moment
Speaker 5: in time, anything is possible. I don't know what I'm
Speaker 5: going to do and you're comfortable, Well not really, but yes. Also,
Speaker 5: I mean I don't know what choice to I have, Like,
Speaker 5: I don't want to live in Montreal. When I started
Speaker 5: taking care of my mom when she got.
Speaker 1: Sick, we should say that. Yeah, in the time since
Speaker 1: since the episode, your mother has passed away. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that sort of both freed you and kind of untethered
Speaker 1: you from from the city from Montreal.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, So my mom I was diagnosed with
Speaker 5: dementia right before COVID and it was it was horrifying.
Speaker 5: The onset was horrifying because you don't know what it means.
Speaker 5: You don't know what it's going to mean to take
Speaker 5: care of somebody who's demented. You have the worst I
Speaker 5: had the worst kind of ideas in my head, but
Speaker 5: it turned out to be. Yeah, my stint as a parent.
Speaker 5: You know, the closest I'm ever going to get to
Speaker 5: being a parent is I think it's taking care of
Speaker 5: my mom for a few years while she was unable
Speaker 5: to take care of herself. And it also brought my
Speaker 5: relationship with her to a very paradoxically very good clothes
Speaker 5: because we got so close, and also because there was
Speaker 5: this cognitive opening where she wouldn't recognized me a lot
Speaker 5: of the time, and so we were like strangers, so
Speaker 5: there was a different quality to our interactions. It was
Speaker 5: a like a freshness or a kind of openness at times,
Speaker 5: which was really amazing.
Speaker 1: That's a nice way to see it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I drew a lot of strike from that.
Speaker 5: It was just a freedom. And by the end, I mean,
Speaker 5: it's weird taking care of somebody who's going to die
Speaker 5: as opposed to growing up to be, you know, an
Speaker 5: adult does kind of go to school and have a
Speaker 5: whole life. It's weird. There's a strangeness to that. But
Speaker 5: in a way, I feel like I growed up, like
Speaker 5: I became. I finally became an adult. But I don't
Speaker 5: know what I'm going to do in the long term,
Speaker 5: because it's I'm still adjusting just to being like a
Speaker 5: middle aged person and what that means, Like I'm not
Speaker 5: even sure. Like I think I'm starting to realize what
Speaker 5: that means. Now, what does that mean to you? What
Speaker 5: does it mean to me? It means the time is
Speaker 5: running out, Like really, like I'm really starting to get
Speaker 5: a sense of like you're you're on the downslope, like
Speaker 5: things pick up speed as opposed to Oh God, life
Speaker 5: is so hard because you're going up, but you're still
Speaker 5: on the upslope right now. It's like no things are
Speaker 5: getting work, things are My body is is. There's a
Speaker 5: lot of body issues in the last couple of years.
Speaker 5: But then in the bigger picture is like where do
Speaker 5: I want to live? Who do I want to be near,
Speaker 5: what do I want to do? These questions are all
Speaker 5: floating up in the air because I've walked away from
Speaker 5: any kind of you know, structure. I don't have a family.
Speaker 5: I don't have I keep coming back to that I
Speaker 5: don't have Like my my oldest and dearest friends are
Speaker 5: scattered all over the place. They're not going to live
Speaker 5: with me. You know, you guys aren't going to be,
Speaker 5: you know, coming up the street with meatball sandwiches. When
Speaker 5: I'm demented, Howard might Howard might be you know, he'll
Speaker 5: be demented first. I don't know. I don't know, God forbid.
Speaker 5: So it's like and it's not like, oh, I'm setting
Speaker 5: up a nice little hospice for myself so that I,
Speaker 5: you know, I have nice people to take care of
Speaker 5: me like, I don't, I don't care what happens. Throw
Speaker 5: me off a cliff, fill me with some yogurt. No,
Speaker 5: I mean you called Jackie.
Speaker 1: You want all the regular things. It's it's just you're
Speaker 1: taking a rather unconventional route to get to those things.
Speaker 5: Yeah. I think it has to do with with knowing
Speaker 5: what you're gonna do, right, So, like if you're not
Speaker 5: sure that there's a container for for you in life,
Speaker 5: like whether there's a job or it's a family, or
Speaker 5: like a very particular career track which is very involving,
Speaker 5: which has steps which you can follow, Like you're kind
Speaker 5: of free floating, You're you're you're in free fall, and
Speaker 5: now it's like kindergarten all over again, like what next?
Speaker 5: What's next? And like where's my money? Like I'm like,
Speaker 5: what the fuck am I doing? What am I doing here?
Speaker 5: Like not knowing? Really not knowing?
Speaker 1: But is that exciting also at all?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: It is, It's very exciting. That's good.
Speaker 1: Yea, Tony, I'm so sorry. I don't have to run off.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm looking at the time. I could talk to
Speaker 1: you all night, but I'm supposed to take Augie. He's
Speaker 1: got a basketball game.
Speaker 5: Give my love to AUGI and Emily and and tell
Speaker 5: him I say hi and we'll.
Speaker 1: Talk so him, I will, I will Man good to
Speaker 1: see you. Okay, you be well.
Speaker 5: Okay bye for now, bye bye.
Speaker 1: Thanks to everyone who helped put the episode together, and
Speaker 1: we'll be back once again with another exciting update in
Speaker 1: two weeks. Also, we're starting a free newsletter. I know
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Speaker 1: a letter sent directly to your inbox. And who knows,
Speaker 1: maybe you'll even hear from a producer or to Khalila Holt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you probably will.
Speaker 1: We'll let you know when new episodes are coming out,
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Speaker 1: like word puzzles.
Speaker 2: I'll be you're not going to puzzles, well.
Speaker 1: We don't know yet. We might make crossord puzzles, word jumbles.
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