WEBVTT - The Pro Palestinian Chinese Government: Josh Rogin Talks To A&G

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<v Speaker 1>Like this Chinese run hotel. The owner estimates there are

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<v Speaker 1>as many as one hundred hotels in Quito that like hers,

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<v Speaker 1>host Chinese migrants headed to the US. They've got essentially

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<v Speaker 1>a how to guide to go from here and to

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<v Speaker 1>continue north, and they tell you here how many days

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<v Speaker 1>you should be preparing, the vaccinations you might need, other

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<v Speaker 1>documents you should carry with you. They even mentioned bringing

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<v Speaker 1>three hundred dollars and hiding that amount of money because

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<v Speaker 1>of presumably being robbed at some point and eating cash

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<v Speaker 1>as a backup.

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<v Speaker 2>We're about to talk a little bit about China. I

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<v Speaker 2>thought it'd slide in that story about the Chinese that

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<v Speaker 2>are coming to the United States through Ecuador, and the

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<v Speaker 2>Chinese have actually set up a hotel in the capital

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<v Speaker 2>in Ecuador with a guide on getting Chinese nationals into

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<v Speaker 2>the country.

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<v Speaker 3>Sounds like a pretty good travel agent too. It covers,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, vaccinations and everything, how much cash to have

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<v Speaker 3>on head our most potent and dangerous for an adversary

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<v Speaker 3>getting their nationals into our country sneaking across the board.

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<v Speaker 3>I wouldn't worry about that at all. Speaking of kin,

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<v Speaker 3>the most excellent Josh Rogan Global Opinions columnists for The

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<v Speaker 3>Washington Post and author of Chaos under Heaven, Trump she

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<v Speaker 3>in the Battle for the twenty first Century, joins us

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<v Speaker 3>to talk about matters reach China. Josh, how are you, sir.

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<v Speaker 4>Great, Happy to year, Happy new year to you.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you so far, so good. I guess ah, So,

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<v Speaker 3>I was so intrigued by something you wrote recently about

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<v Speaker 3>anti Semitism in Chinese media and social media. Just on

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<v Speaker 3>its face, it's pretty interesting. But why it's important to

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<v Speaker 3>the West and what it shows. Can you just start

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<v Speaker 3>with telling us what's going on, what you've observed.

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<v Speaker 4>Right, Well, it's kind of crazy actually, because you know,

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<v Speaker 4>we sort of saw ever since the October seventh terrorist

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<v Speaker 4>attacks on Israel that the Chinese government has been pretty

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<v Speaker 4>much pro Palestinian. That's not really that like surprising, you

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<v Speaker 4>might say. They have, you know, Chijing being hosted the

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<v Speaker 4>Palestinian authority just a couple months earlier. They see the

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<v Speaker 4>Palaestiny struggle is a great way to screw with our

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<v Speaker 4>ally Israel and thereby screw with us and promote their

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<v Speaker 4>anti anti imperialist, anti West autocratic agenda. So they make

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<v Speaker 4>common cause with a lot of these you know groups,

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<v Speaker 4>But What was really crazy when a lot of my

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<v Speaker 4>you know, Chinese friends especially notice, is that on the

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<v Speaker 4>Chinese Internet, especially on their social media, it wasn't just

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<v Speaker 4>like criticizing Natanyahu. It was Jews or Nazis and the

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<v Speaker 4>Jews control of the media and the Jews control of

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<v Speaker 4>the world, and all of this really sort of old

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<v Speaker 4>school anti Semitic garbage.

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<v Speaker 2>If I might, if I, if I may jump in,

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<v Speaker 2>if I may jump in quickly, Jews are Nazis indicates

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<v Speaker 2>a lack of understanding of some terms.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, and it's not like there's a ton of Jewish

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<v Speaker 3>folks kicking around in Beijing either, But go on, John.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, that's the thing. I mean, I've traveled in China

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<v Speaker 4>many times, and usually it's like a philo Semitism. It's like, oh,

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<v Speaker 4>Jews are so smart, you must have so much money,

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<v Speaker 4>and you know, oh you know, how did you know?

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<v Speaker 4>But they now it's like really like, oh, you guys

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<v Speaker 4>are genocidal maniac and you're right, a cabal running the

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<v Speaker 4>world behind the scenes, and it's really nasty. And because

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<v Speaker 4>we know the Chinese Internet is controlled by the Chinese government,

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<v Speaker 4>it necessarily means that they're fueling this and then all

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<v Speaker 4>of a sudden, here comes to the state TV with

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<v Speaker 4>clips about how you know, uh, you know, the Jews

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<v Speaker 4>control of the American election, so democracy doesn't work. And

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<v Speaker 4>you realize that what they're doing is they're trying to

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<v Speaker 4>say that democracy is a sham. Therefore, did everybody want

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<v Speaker 4>like an emperor? Isn't that a much better deal? And

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<v Speaker 4>that comes to the cost of like a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>anti semitism and hatred. And once you stir up all

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<v Speaker 4>of those things in China, they don't just go away.

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<v Speaker 4>You're training all these people who have no choice really

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<v Speaker 4>but to read the heavily sister Chinese Internet to hate,

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<v Speaker 4>and it's really messed up. I just thought it was

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<v Speaker 4>really messed up, saying, well.

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<v Speaker 3>The first thing my mind jumps to is is TikTok

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<v Speaker 3>and how the Chinese government has been so successful in

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<v Speaker 3>piping ideas into the heads of our young people. Have

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<v Speaker 3>you seen that same sort of anti semitism on TikTok

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<v Speaker 3>for instance?

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<v Speaker 4>Oh yeah, My whole TikTok feed is anti semitism and

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<v Speaker 4>Chinese propaganda. Now maybe that's because I click on those

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<v Speaker 4>things and I watch them because it's like from my

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<v Speaker 4>professional research, But somehow. You know, it seems like TikTok

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<v Speaker 4>is a wash which like really viral, and every time

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<v Speaker 4>I report the anti semitism, it never gets taken down,

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<v Speaker 4>you know what I mean? And then the Chinese propaganda

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<v Speaker 4>so sophisticated, it's so savvy in a way, because what

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<v Speaker 4>is more and more through American voices. It's like that

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<v Speaker 4>Osama bin Laden thing, Like how did forty thousand you know,

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<v Speaker 4>American teenagers all decide on the exact same day that

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<v Speaker 4>Osama bin Laden was right about, you know what I mean?

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<v Speaker 4>Like that doesn't happen organically. That's what the algorithm does.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's not to say that I don't have a

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<v Speaker 4>problem with Facebook or x or Instagram or threat whatever.

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<v Speaker 4>Their algorithms also need to be more transparent. We need

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<v Speaker 4>to know how they're manipulating what we see and how

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<v Speaker 4>that affects what our children's minds perceive as the reality.

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<v Speaker 4>But if they're not the genocidal, mass murdering dictatorship that

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<v Speaker 4>they out to get us, And I think that's what

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<v Speaker 4>people don't realize is that TikTok is run by the genocidal,

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<v Speaker 4>mass murdering dictatorship. That's that teachs us harm. That's trying

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<v Speaker 4>to influence our society to come to theirs. And that's

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<v Speaker 4>really an order of magnitude worse than Facebook. It's worse

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<v Speaker 4>worse than Instagram all put together.

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<v Speaker 3>And here's where we must point out that the move

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<v Speaker 3>to get TikTok banned or more heavily regulated has completely

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<v Speaker 3>died because they're so successful in spreading bribes around the

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<v Speaker 3>political spectrum. Nobody has any interest in the topic anymore.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, yeah, that's exactly right. Well, first they had that

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<v Speaker 4>horrible hearing where like the guy who you know, you

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<v Speaker 4>had that one center who was like, how come I

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<v Speaker 4>keep just doing dancing men on my TikTok? And they

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<v Speaker 4>build that CEO was like, I don't know, should I

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<v Speaker 4>tell you know what? Like that was like the level

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<v Speaker 4>of investigation that we got from you know, then I

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<v Speaker 4>understand have no idea what they're talking about. And then

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<v Speaker 4>of course here comes the lobbying. And it's not just

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<v Speaker 4>the Chinese companies with millions of the American companies like

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<v Speaker 4>Oracle and who are making money off of the making

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<v Speaker 4>the money and who want, you know, to have their

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<v Speaker 4>own politicians in their pockets, and the Wall Street guys,

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<v Speaker 4>because you know, all these Chinese companies are using Wall

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<v Speaker 4>Street money, that means private equity. That's big power in Washington.

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<v Speaker 4>So of course it's nothing happens and everybody pounds the

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<v Speaker 4>table and then we go back to business. But you know,

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<v Speaker 4>if you just think about how, like, you know, what's

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<v Speaker 4>going on in our so sitey, how much it's driven

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<v Speaker 4>by the content that people see on social media. Putting

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<v Speaker 4>that in the hands of our greatest adversary is is

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<v Speaker 4>it's crazy, it's stupid, and you know something's got to

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<v Speaker 4>be done.

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<v Speaker 2>It makes the Trojan Horse seem like, you know, a

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<v Speaker 2>minor incident in world history. It's one of the most

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<v Speaker 2>amazing things that's ever happened. Historians will look back on

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<v Speaker 2>this someday if historians are allowed to print anything when

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<v Speaker 2>China takes over the world and think, how did any

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<v Speaker 2>superpower allow all their young people to be educated by

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<v Speaker 2>their number one adversary?

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<v Speaker 4>Right, And it's sort of like, you know, it's good

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<v Speaker 4>that you point out's on a new tactic, right, So

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<v Speaker 4>they've been doing it since Trojan times. But if you

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<v Speaker 4>just think about, like just the difference between twenty sixteen,

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<v Speaker 4>no matter what you thought about the Russian interference. In

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<v Speaker 4>the end, it was a bunch of Facebook pages. This

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<v Speaker 4>is like a heavily organized, artificial intelligence driven thing. It

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<v Speaker 4>makes the Russian interference look like like child's play by comparison.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's what you don't realize about the Chinese is

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<v Speaker 4>that they don't do it in the clumsy way. They

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<v Speaker 4>do it in the smart way, which is to make

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<v Speaker 4>it have their messages come through American phones with American

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<v Speaker 4>voices and American influencers. And we're not savvy enough as

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<v Speaker 4>a democracy to have in suspicious that can even understand

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<v Speaker 4>that much less regulated. But essentially in the end, that's

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<v Speaker 4>exactly what's gonna have to happen.

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<v Speaker 3>Good Little Herd is discouraging. Yeah, it's like the Trojan

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<v Speaker 3>Horse was a moving sidewalk in the Greeks or the

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<v Speaker 3>Spartans or the Irish or whoever got Trojan Horse didn't bother.

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<v Speaker 2>Shutting down the sidewalk.

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<v Speaker 3>They just left it open.

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<v Speaker 4>Good lord.

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<v Speaker 3>Josh Rogan, Global Opinion's columnist for The Washington Post, is

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<v Speaker 3>online speaking of China taking over the world. Josh, there

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<v Speaker 3>have been a number of headlines in the business papers, especially,

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<v Speaker 3>but China's run into some serious, serious economic stumbles, haven't they.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, yeah, these two things going on. One is that

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<v Speaker 4>the Chinese economy has been slowing for over a decade.

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<v Speaker 4>All right, that's like structural when it's the bigger it gets,

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<v Speaker 4>the lower the growth rate is going to be. It's

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<v Speaker 4>just natural that it was going to slow. And then

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<v Speaker 4>you add on the extra things that's usually thing has

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<v Speaker 4>done wrong. And you know, there's two ways to analyze it.

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<v Speaker 4>There's the Wall streetway and then there's the honest way. Right.

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<v Speaker 4>The Wall Street way is to say, oh, well, this

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<v Speaker 4>is a good time to invest in China because all

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<v Speaker 4>the stocks are down and oh you know, everything's going

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<v Speaker 4>to be fine and they're going to bounce back, so

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<v Speaker 4>you know, or some people will even say, well that

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<v Speaker 4>this means they're not that powerful, so we don't really

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<v Speaker 4>have to do anything to compete with them. But the

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<v Speaker 4>honest way didn't out analyze it, is to say that

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<v Speaker 4>the reason in that China's economy is in the toilet

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<v Speaker 4>is because Jijen King has destroyed private business in China

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<v Speaker 4>because he's nationalized the education, the gaming, everything, it's all

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<v Speaker 4>becoming the technology. He put people falling out of windows,

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<v Speaker 4>putting people in prison, the executives dying all the time.

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<v Speaker 4>This is a scary scenario. This is an environment where

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<v Speaker 4>American businesses are getting scooped up and shut down. And

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<v Speaker 4>what that really should tell us is that China is

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<v Speaker 4>becoming more dangerous as it gets weaker.

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<v Speaker 3>Not less interesting. Josh Rogan Global Opinions columns for the

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<v Speaker 3>Washington Post. Excellent follow on X as well. Josh, thanks

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<v Speaker 3>a million for the time. Good to talk to you anytime.