1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Like this Chinese run hotel. The owner estimates there are 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: as many as one hundred hotels in Quito that like hers, 3 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: host Chinese migrants headed to the US. They've got essentially 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: a how to guide to go from here and to 5 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: continue north, and they tell you here how many days 6 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: you should be preparing, the vaccinations you might need, other 7 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: documents you should carry with you. They even mentioned bringing 8 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: three hundred dollars and hiding that amount of money because 9 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: of presumably being robbed at some point and eating cash 10 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: as a backup. 11 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 2: We're about to talk a little bit about China. I 12 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: thought it'd slide in that story about the Chinese that 13 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 2: are coming to the United States through Ecuador, and the 14 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,959 Speaker 2: Chinese have actually set up a hotel in the capital 15 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: in Ecuador with a guide on getting Chinese nationals into 16 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: the country. 17 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 3: Sounds like a pretty good travel agent too. It covers, 18 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 3: you know, vaccinations and everything, how much cash to have 19 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 3: on head our most potent and dangerous for an adversary 20 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 3: getting their nationals into our country sneaking across the board. 21 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 3: I wouldn't worry about that at all. Speaking of kin, 22 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 3: the most excellent Josh Rogan Global Opinions columnists for The 23 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 3: Washington Post and author of Chaos under Heaven, Trump she 24 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 3: in the Battle for the twenty first Century, joins us 25 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 3: to talk about matters reach China. Josh, how are you, sir. 26 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 4: Great, Happy to year, Happy new year to you. 27 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 3: Thank you so far, so good. I guess ah, So, 28 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 3: I was so intrigued by something you wrote recently about 29 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 3: anti Semitism in Chinese media and social media. Just on 30 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 3: its face, it's pretty interesting. But why it's important to 31 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 3: the West and what it shows. Can you just start 32 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 3: with telling us what's going on, what you've observed. 33 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 4: Right, Well, it's kind of crazy actually, because you know, 34 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 4: we sort of saw ever since the October seventh terrorist 35 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 4: attacks on Israel that the Chinese government has been pretty 36 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 4: much pro Palestinian. That's not really that like surprising, you 37 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 4: might say. They have, you know, Chijing being hosted the 38 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 4: Palestinian authority just a couple months earlier. They see the 39 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 4: Palaestiny struggle is a great way to screw with our 40 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 4: ally Israel and thereby screw with us and promote their 41 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 4: anti anti imperialist, anti West autocratic agenda. So they make 42 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 4: common cause with a lot of these you know groups, 43 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 4: But What was really crazy when a lot of my 44 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 4: you know, Chinese friends especially notice, is that on the 45 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 4: Chinese Internet, especially on their social media, it wasn't just 46 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 4: like criticizing Natanyahu. It was Jews or Nazis and the 47 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 4: Jews control of the media and the Jews control of 48 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 4: the world, and all of this really sort of old 49 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 4: school anti Semitic garbage. 50 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 2: If I might, if I, if I may jump in, 51 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,519 Speaker 2: if I may jump in quickly, Jews are Nazis indicates 52 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 2: a lack of understanding of some terms. 53 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 3: Well, and it's not like there's a ton of Jewish 54 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 3: folks kicking around in Beijing either, But go on, John. 55 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 4: Well, that's the thing. I mean, I've traveled in China 56 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 4: many times, and usually it's like a philo Semitism. It's like, oh, 57 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 4: Jews are so smart, you must have so much money, 58 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 4: and you know, oh you know, how did you know? 59 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 4: But they now it's like really like, oh, you guys 60 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 4: are genocidal maniac and you're right, a cabal running the 61 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 4: world behind the scenes, and it's really nasty. And because 62 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 4: we know the Chinese Internet is controlled by the Chinese government, 63 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 4: it necessarily means that they're fueling this and then all 64 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 4: of a sudden, here comes to the state TV with 65 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 4: clips about how you know, uh, you know, the Jews 66 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 4: control of the American election, so democracy doesn't work. And 67 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 4: you realize that what they're doing is they're trying to 68 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 4: say that democracy is a sham. Therefore, did everybody want 69 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 4: like an emperor? Isn't that a much better deal? And 70 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 4: that comes to the cost of like a lot of 71 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 4: anti semitism and hatred. And once you stir up all 72 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 4: of those things in China, they don't just go away. 73 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 4: You're training all these people who have no choice really 74 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 4: but to read the heavily sister Chinese Internet to hate, 75 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 4: and it's really messed up. I just thought it was 76 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 4: really messed up, saying, well. 77 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 3: The first thing my mind jumps to is is TikTok 78 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 3: and how the Chinese government has been so successful in 79 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 3: piping ideas into the heads of our young people. Have 80 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 3: you seen that same sort of anti semitism on TikTok 81 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 3: for instance? 82 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, My whole TikTok feed is anti semitism and 83 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 4: Chinese propaganda. Now maybe that's because I click on those 84 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 4: things and I watch them because it's like from my 85 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 4: professional research, But somehow. You know, it seems like TikTok 86 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 4: is a wash which like really viral, and every time 87 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 4: I report the anti semitism, it never gets taken down, 88 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 4: you know what I mean? And then the Chinese propaganda 89 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 4: so sophisticated, it's so savvy in a way, because what 90 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 4: is more and more through American voices. It's like that 91 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 4: Osama bin Laden thing, Like how did forty thousand you know, 92 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 4: American teenagers all decide on the exact same day that 93 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 4: Osama bin Laden was right about, you know what I mean? 94 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 4: Like that doesn't happen organically. That's what the algorithm does. 95 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 4: And that's not to say that I don't have a 96 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 4: problem with Facebook or x or Instagram or threat whatever. 97 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 4: Their algorithms also need to be more transparent. We need 98 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 4: to know how they're manipulating what we see and how 99 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 4: that affects what our children's minds perceive as the reality. 100 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 4: But if they're not the genocidal, mass murdering dictatorship that 101 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 4: they out to get us, And I think that's what 102 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 4: people don't realize is that TikTok is run by the genocidal, 103 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 4: mass murdering dictatorship. That's that teachs us harm. That's trying 104 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 4: to influence our society to come to theirs. And that's 105 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 4: really an order of magnitude worse than Facebook. It's worse 106 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 4: worse than Instagram all put together. 107 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 3: And here's where we must point out that the move 108 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 3: to get TikTok banned or more heavily regulated has completely 109 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 3: died because they're so successful in spreading bribes around the 110 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 3: political spectrum. Nobody has any interest in the topic anymore. 111 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, that's exactly right. Well, first they had that 112 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 4: horrible hearing where like the guy who you know, you 113 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 4: had that one center who was like, how come I 114 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 4: keep just doing dancing men on my TikTok? And they 115 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 4: build that CEO was like, I don't know, should I 116 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 4: tell you know what? Like that was like the level 117 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 4: of investigation that we got from you know, then I 118 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 4: understand have no idea what they're talking about. And then 119 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 4: of course here comes the lobbying. And it's not just 120 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 4: the Chinese companies with millions of the American companies like 121 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 4: Oracle and who are making money off of the making 122 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 4: the money and who want, you know, to have their 123 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 4: own politicians in their pockets, and the Wall Street guys, 124 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 4: because you know, all these Chinese companies are using Wall 125 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 4: Street money, that means private equity. That's big power in Washington. 126 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 4: So of course it's nothing happens and everybody pounds the 127 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 4: table and then we go back to business. But you know, 128 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 4: if you just think about how, like, you know, what's 129 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 4: going on in our so sitey, how much it's driven 130 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 4: by the content that people see on social media. Putting 131 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 4: that in the hands of our greatest adversary is is 132 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 4: it's crazy, it's stupid, and you know something's got to 133 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 4: be done. 134 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: It makes the Trojan Horse seem like, you know, a 135 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 2: minor incident in world history. It's one of the most 136 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 2: amazing things that's ever happened. Historians will look back on 137 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 2: this someday if historians are allowed to print anything when 138 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 2: China takes over the world and think, how did any 139 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 2: superpower allow all their young people to be educated by 140 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 2: their number one adversary? 141 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 4: Right, And it's sort of like, you know, it's good 142 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 4: that you point out's on a new tactic, right, So 143 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 4: they've been doing it since Trojan times. But if you 144 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 4: just think about, like just the difference between twenty sixteen, 145 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 4: no matter what you thought about the Russian interference. In 146 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 4: the end, it was a bunch of Facebook pages. This 147 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 4: is like a heavily organized, artificial intelligence driven thing. It 148 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 4: makes the Russian interference look like like child's play by comparison. 149 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 4: And that's what you don't realize about the Chinese is 150 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 4: that they don't do it in the clumsy way. They 151 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 4: do it in the smart way, which is to make 152 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 4: it have their messages come through American phones with American 153 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 4: voices and American influencers. And we're not savvy enough as 154 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 4: a democracy to have in suspicious that can even understand 155 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 4: that much less regulated. But essentially in the end, that's 156 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 4: exactly what's gonna have to happen. 157 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 3: Good Little Herd is discouraging. Yeah, it's like the Trojan 158 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 3: Horse was a moving sidewalk in the Greeks or the 159 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 3: Spartans or the Irish or whoever got Trojan Horse didn't bother. 160 00:07:58,400 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 2: Shutting down the sidewalk. 161 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:01,239 Speaker 3: They just left it open. 162 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 4: Good lord. 163 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 3: Josh Rogan, Global Opinion's columnist for The Washington Post, is 164 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 3: online speaking of China taking over the world. Josh, there 165 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 3: have been a number of headlines in the business papers, especially, 166 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 3: but China's run into some serious, serious economic stumbles, haven't they. 167 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, these two things going on. One is that 168 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 4: the Chinese economy has been slowing for over a decade. 169 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 4: All right, that's like structural when it's the bigger it gets, 170 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 4: the lower the growth rate is going to be. It's 171 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 4: just natural that it was going to slow. And then 172 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 4: you add on the extra things that's usually thing has 173 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 4: done wrong. And you know, there's two ways to analyze it. 174 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 4: There's the Wall streetway and then there's the honest way. Right. 175 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 4: The Wall Street way is to say, oh, well, this 176 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 4: is a good time to invest in China because all 177 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 4: the stocks are down and oh you know, everything's going 178 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 4: to be fine and they're going to bounce back, so 179 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 4: you know, or some people will even say, well that 180 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 4: this means they're not that powerful, so we don't really 181 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 4: have to do anything to compete with them. But the 182 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 4: honest way didn't out analyze it, is to say that 183 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 4: the reason in that China's economy is in the toilet 184 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 4: is because Jijen King has destroyed private business in China 185 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 4: because he's nationalized the education, the gaming, everything, it's all 186 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 4: becoming the technology. He put people falling out of windows, 187 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 4: putting people in prison, the executives dying all the time. 188 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 4: This is a scary scenario. This is an environment where 189 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 4: American businesses are getting scooped up and shut down. And 190 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 4: what that really should tell us is that China is 191 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 4: becoming more dangerous as it gets weaker. 192 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 3: Not less interesting. Josh Rogan Global Opinions columns for the 193 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 3: Washington Post. Excellent follow on X as well. Josh, thanks 194 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 3: a million for the time. Good to talk to you anytime.