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Speaker 1: You may not know this, but the original purpose of

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Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know was to change people's minds about

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Speaker 1: male order marriages, and we certainly did with this episode.

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Speaker 1: We were so successful that we decided to keep the

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Speaker 1: podcast going. I'm just kidding for those of our listeners

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Speaker 1: who have trouble detecting that kind of thing. What is

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Speaker 1: true is that it's a surprisingly interesting episode and it

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Speaker 1: may very well change your mind about male order marriages.

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Speaker 1: I was serious, just not for those of our listeners

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Speaker 1: who always think I'm kidding. How about we all just

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Speaker 1: enjoy this episode? Shall we?

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 1: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you

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Speaker 1: should Know about male order marriages.

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Speaker 2: Murky Waters.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, really, yeah.

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Speaker 2: This is one of those where.

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Speaker 3: We researched and researched and read and read, and I

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Speaker 3: think it's one of those deals for me that's like

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Speaker 3: and this is just my opening statement where it can

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Speaker 3: be a positive thing, like a dating service in some ways,

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Speaker 3: but there is certainly a darker side to the whole situation.

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Speaker 1: I already know how you feel about it, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like it's coming through clearly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's just it's very It's one of

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Speaker 3: those really murky things where sometimes you hear these really

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Speaker 3: great stories about people that do find are looking for

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Speaker 3: love and find love with someone from another country and

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Speaker 3: it works out for everybody. And then sometimes you hear

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Speaker 3: about stories where it's sort of what the National Organization

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Speaker 3: for Women's sonya Asario calls a softer version of human trafficking.

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Speaker 1: Or even worse, occasionally someone turns up murdered.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's the truest dark side. So that's

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Speaker 3: just me level setting and we can talk about the good,

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Speaker 3: the bad, and the ugly.

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Speaker 1: I think that was a great level saying. I generally

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Speaker 1: agree with it. But for me, the jury is still

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Speaker 1: out in thinking about it as a whole because there's

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Speaker 1: so little hard data on this stuff. Yeah, almost everything

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Speaker 1: is anecdotal, true, and when like you condemned something based

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Speaker 1: on anecdotal data, what you've got there as a moral panic,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily something in reality. So I'm a little hesitant

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Speaker 1: to go all the way. The jury's still out for me,

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Speaker 1: but I definitely recognize the same stuff you do. For sure.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely there. It exists, it's just for me. The

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Speaker 1: question is how much does it exist and does the

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Speaker 1: good outweigh the bad? And I don't know. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: we should probably like actually define what we're talking about here,

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Speaker 1: because most people, I would guests are familiar with mail

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Speaker 1: order brides. They're more recently they've come to be called

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Speaker 1: mail order marriages because they've been extended to same sex

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Speaker 1: couples in the United States. But then also like even

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Speaker 1: more generally, it's called international marriage brokerage.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, I mean there's a full industry built around this,

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Speaker 3: with thousands of websites and agencies that are brokering these marriages.

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Speaker 3: And you know, from looking into it, it seems like

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Speaker 3: there are some really above board ones that kind of

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Speaker 3: act like an international dating surface in some ways where

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Speaker 3: they group, you know, match like people together. And then

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Speaker 3: it seems like there are a lot of really sketchy

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Speaker 3: ones that charge people a ton of money and aren't

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Speaker 3: looking out for the men or the women.

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Speaker 1: And I know that money is sunk back into making

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Speaker 1: their website look at all nonclude.

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Speaker 2: I saw some really really bad websites, I mean so.

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Speaker 1: Bad, man like comic Sands at one.

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Speaker 3: Point Yeah, it's hard to see those and not think, well, A,

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Speaker 3: this is a scam or B this is a front

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Speaker 3: for some sort of CD trafficking operation.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it is tough not to think like that.

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Speaker 1: But but what we are talking about generally is a

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Speaker 1: marriage where the husband and the wife are generally unknown

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Speaker 1: to each other. Maybe have met once, but if they did,

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Speaker 1: it's possible it was just a day or two before.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe they've met once or twice and have done

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Speaker 1: some correspondence back and forth for an extended period of time.

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Speaker 1: But that's pretty new. And the classical definition it's they're

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Speaker 1: generally unknown to one another, and one of them, usually

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Speaker 1: the bride travels a very long distance from home to

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Speaker 1: move to the husband's home and make a life there

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Speaker 1: and be married. That's not the Webster's definition. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot more stumbling in my definition, but I think that

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Speaker 1: generally gets it across.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, the kind of the classic thing

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Speaker 3: that you think of is lonely American man who has

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Speaker 3: a little bit of money in his forties or fifties,

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Speaker 3: can't find American woman and ends up getting a young, beautiful,

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Speaker 3: young Ukrainian woman who doesn't speak much English. And would

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Speaker 3: love to live in the United States and fall in

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Speaker 3: love with an American man and that sort of And

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Speaker 3: you know, of course it happens from all countries, but

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Speaker 3: a lot of times you think of Russia and the

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Speaker 3: Ukraine or maybe in Southeast Asia or something like that.

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Speaker 3: That is sort of I feel like when people say

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Speaker 3: that term, most people, that's probably what pops into their head.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or I think you're being rather generous. I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people would be like, you know, some

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Speaker 1: sad sack who can't like find a woman in America

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Speaker 1: has to go look elsewhere to get really judge about it,

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Speaker 1: and I think people are really judging about male order marriages.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a long standing tradition in the United

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Speaker 1: States of considering people who who go outside the traditional

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Speaker 1: channels of marriage and basically take it into their own hands,

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Speaker 1: like through male order marriage are they're very much judged

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Speaker 1: harshly and criticized, maybe fairly, maybe not. But I think

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Speaker 1: there's another component too, especially these days, is that the

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Speaker 1: men who who are looking for women for male order

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Speaker 1: brides are also dominant, domineering, possibly abusive, and they're looking

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Speaker 1: for docile women who will do whatever they say, because

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Speaker 1: they're the husband, so they have to go to other

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Speaker 1: cultures where that might be more prevalent and where they

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Speaker 1: can select from women who might respond to that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing a lot better than an American woman who

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Speaker 1: wouldn't put up with his guf. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean that is certainly a part of what happens sometimes,

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Speaker 3: and some of these agencies promote that the submissive nature.

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Speaker 3: There was one that literally said that these young women

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Speaker 3: are quote unspoiled by feminism, and you have potential homemaking

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Speaker 3: savings of one hundred and fifty dollars a week because

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Speaker 3: you're essentially getting a you know, sort of a living

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Speaker 3: domestic servant.

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Speaker 1: Good lord.

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Speaker 3: So you know, that's the underbelly and the dark side.

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Speaker 3: But we you know, I did find some that do

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Speaker 3: seem very above board and people that do genuinely look

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Speaker 3: like they're looking for love and have struck out at

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Speaker 3: home so they're looking elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I said, Chuck, And we should also say

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Speaker 1: one other thing too, Like, you know, it's pretty like

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Speaker 1: it's a pretty well known thing in America. It's not

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Speaker 1: like on everybody's lips. You don't hear it in every

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Speaker 1: monologue on the Late night talk shows or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: But like, generally people in America are familiar and know

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Speaker 1: about male order marriages, but it turns out it's even

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Speaker 1: bigger in other countries like Taiwan and South Korea have

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Speaker 1: huge male order marriage industries that may even dwarf the

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Speaker 1: United States. And it's pretty I don't want to say

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Speaker 1: it's huge in the United States, but it's not like

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Speaker 1: just some small speck of sliver of like an arcane

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Speaker 1: group of people. Like it's bigger than you'd think, but

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Speaker 1: it's even bigger in some other Asian countries as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And Dave Ruse helped us put this together, and

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Speaker 3: this was a tough assignment for him, but he used

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Speaker 3: a lot of information from a book by a legal

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Speaker 3: professor originally from University of South Carolina named Marsha Zugg

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Speaker 3: called Buying a Bride insert colon music Jerry, an Engaging

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Speaker 3: History of mail order Matches, where it seems like she

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Speaker 3: gives a you know, a fair but fairly full throated

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Speaker 3: defense of its history through the ages as far as

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Speaker 3: and we'll get into this, but as far as an

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Speaker 3: opportunity for a lot of women to gain more agency

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Speaker 3: and to gain more rights at a time when they

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Speaker 3: might not have any, all the way up through today,

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Speaker 3: where she still defends it to a certain degree and says,

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Speaker 3: you know, like, sure, these situations can be bad, but

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Speaker 3: what's really bad is what undocumented immigrants have to suffer

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Speaker 3: through in this country because they have no legal rights.

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Speaker 3: They can't go to the police, they can't leave their

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Speaker 3: spouse or their partner for fear of deportation. And it's

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Speaker 3: an interesting take, I think, and I'm glad that Dave

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Speaker 3: found this book, you know, because I'm not sure that

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Speaker 3: I would have been as fair.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, she definitely almost I get the impression

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Speaker 1: that she is defensive on behalf of the industry just

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Speaker 1: because of how mistreated it's been, in her opinion, unfairly

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Speaker 1: in large part.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because you know, I think it very much has

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Speaker 3: an anti feminist rap for good reason. But she does

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Speaker 3: make some compelling arguments that throughout history it wasn't that

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Speaker 3: way at all, And I guess we can go ahead

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Speaker 3: and dive into some of that. In the early days

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Speaker 3: of male order marriages in the American colonies, there was

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Speaker 3: a lack of women problem in the early colonies.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like the earliest colonies. We're talking like James

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Speaker 1: Town here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like you know, the Puritans and Pilgrims, they may

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Speaker 3: have come over with their families, but there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of single men that came over, and a lot

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Speaker 3: of them some of them may like run off with

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Speaker 3: an indigenous woman and live with among her tribe and

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Speaker 3: be like, you know what, I'm kind of done building

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Speaker 3: things for Jamestown. I'm out of here. So that's no

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Speaker 3: good if they're looking for young men to like kind

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Speaker 3: of help build up these young colonies. And then other

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Speaker 3: ones were just lonely and said, hey, like there are

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Speaker 3: no women over here, what are we supposed to do?

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Speaker 3: So very early on they started sort of advertising and

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Speaker 3: bringing women, you know, supposedly volunteers over who wanted to

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Speaker 3: come to the colonies and sort of have maybe even

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Speaker 3: more rights than they had back home.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is a really good example of kind

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Speaker 1: of like a thread that ran through the first couple

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Speaker 1: centuries of America's founding, which was government sanctioned and supported

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Speaker 1: mail order marriages in order to help build more stable communities. Right,

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Speaker 1: So the legislatures did things like create laws that made

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Speaker 1: it more attractive for a woman to become a male

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Speaker 1: order bride in this area, Like apparently in England, if

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Speaker 1: you became a widow you got a third of the

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Speaker 1: estate and that was it. And in places like Virginia

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Speaker 1: and I think Maryland as well, they set up laws

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Speaker 1: that basically said, hey, you're going to keep a lot

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Speaker 1: more than that, you can run your own business afterward,

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Speaker 1: like being a widow's going to rock And did we

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Speaker 1: mention also the men are dropping deadlight flies over here,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, your husband's probably going to die pretty quick.

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Speaker 1: So if you don't like them, who cares. You still

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Speaker 1: get to keep all this inheritance and you get to

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Speaker 1: keep the business and you can't do quite that well

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Speaker 1: for yourself in those circumstances back in England. So that

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Speaker 1: attracted people. And that was like the government saying like,

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Speaker 1: please come over here and marry these strangers that you've

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Speaker 1: never met before.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, it made sense for a lot

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Speaker 3: of these young women because many of them were you know,

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Speaker 3: they were from like the servant class, let's say, so

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Speaker 3: they were looking at years of servitude in England and

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Speaker 3: then they basically were like, well, hey, forget all that,

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Speaker 3: why don't you just come over here, get married and

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Speaker 3: like you said, I think the status even one in

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Speaker 3: three marriages lasted ten years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so they.

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Speaker 3: Did kind of sell them on the fact that, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's not so great, you'll probably be dead soon enough.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you can have his stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And it actually, I mean like that actually did

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Speaker 1: like attract some women. I think, at least I don't

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Speaker 1: know if we have the number, but there definitely were

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Speaker 1: what they called tobacco wives who came to marry new

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Speaker 1: tobacco planters who were setting up their own fortune. And

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Speaker 1: I actually had to prove that they were of financial

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Speaker 1: means by donating one hundred and fifty pounds of gold

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Speaker 1: leaf tobacco to the Virginia Company to take part in

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Speaker 1: this right. And so that lasted as long as it lasted,

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Speaker 1: or as long as it needed to. And as the

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Speaker 1: Eastern colonies started to like become more self sufficient, became

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Speaker 1: less rowdy, became more family oriented as far as the

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Speaker 1: Europeans were concerned, the need for like those mail order

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Speaker 1: schemes kind of went away. But then as America kind

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Speaker 1: of expanded further and further west, the frontier kept recreating

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Speaker 1: itself in different places. So you know, it went from

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Speaker 1: the eastern colonies to you know, along the Mississippi, and

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Speaker 1: then further and further out west. And every time it

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Speaker 1: did that, this new iteration of the frontier was settled

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Speaker 1: by rowdy men, and they would have to figure out

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Speaker 1: a way to get women to attract women to come

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Speaker 1: out to marry the rowdy men so they would stop

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Speaker 1: beating each other up in bar fights and become more

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Speaker 1: productive citizens. And that kept going on throughout the eighteenth

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Speaker 1: and nineteenth centuries in the United States.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, if you're already thinking, guys, this,

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Speaker 3: this already sounds terrible, these marriages based on these financial arrangements. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and you know, despite these promises of a better life,

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Speaker 3: like that's kind of what we're talking about, like welcome

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Speaker 3: to marriage in the seventeenth and eighteenth century.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, don't be so naive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not that's kind of what it was.

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Speaker 3: And they've made a good point, like the notion of

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Speaker 3: marrying for true love, that's a very much like a

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Speaker 3: twentieth century proposition. Yeah, even if it wasn't a male

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Speaker 3: order bride situation, it was someone's dowry or parents sort

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Speaker 3: of arranging marriages and saying these family this family should

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Speaker 3: marry this family, which still goes on today. I should

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Speaker 3: point out among like the blue chip in the high Societ,

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Speaker 3: like and Arthur had to marry Susan.

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Speaker 2: You know, let's not forget that.

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Speaker 1: Everybody with a Habsburg jaw was an arranged marriage.

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Speaker 2: He could marry Liza Minelly.

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize you were making the movie reference. I

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Speaker 1: thought you were thought Arthur and Susan. I thought you

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Speaker 1: were using like Biff and Muffy, like generally Arthur and Okay, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got it. Now I got it.

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Speaker 3: But the point is is that marriage was a financial

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Speaker 3: arrangement many in most times back then. I'm not saying

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Speaker 3: no one ever married because they were in love. I'm

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Speaker 3: sure that happened, uh, but it had to take a

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Speaker 3: lot of boxes back then.

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Speaker 2: So it was just sort of the way it was.

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Speaker 3: And so this solved problems for early settlers and for

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Speaker 3: westward expanders. They made things really attractive in California for women.

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Speaker 3: They made it easier to divorce your husband if you

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Speaker 3: wanted to. They made it easier to or just legal

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Speaker 3: to own and sell, buy and sell land, which is

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Speaker 3: not something you could do at other places in the country.

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Speaker 3: So they were trying to make it an attractive situation

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Speaker 3: for women to move west because they needed men and

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Speaker 3: women out there. And I think the between eighteen fifty

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Speaker 3: and eighteen sixty, the population of women in California increased

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Speaker 3: from three percent to nineteen percent of the total population.

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Speaker 2: So it was working, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It was. And it wasn't just California, but Washington State

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Speaker 1: also participated. I think Oregon may have as well. And

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Speaker 1: there would be these schemes and I don't mean scheme

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Speaker 1: like you know, like dastardly scheme, but like a.

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Speaker 2: Plant good scheme.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, where like a guy would go around to the

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Speaker 1: bachelors out in like Washington Territory and be like, give

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Speaker 1: me a one hundred bucks or I think three hundred bucks,

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Speaker 1: which is about five grand today, and I will bring

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Speaker 1: you a suitable wife. And at least one guy did this.

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Speaker 1: Asa Mercer was a marriage broke and he would go

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Speaker 1: back east say hey, there's like this great booming economy

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Speaker 1: out west, why don't you come with me, And like

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Speaker 1: he would return with like one hundred women and some

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Speaker 1: of them would get married immediately, some would wait. But

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Speaker 1: it was like another It was another thing where there

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Speaker 1: was a need for women to stabilize it out of

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Speaker 1: control male population.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And you know, Zug points out very fairly in her

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Speaker 3: book that some of these Mercer girls from as they

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Speaker 3: were called, from ace of Mercer's operation, became abolitionists, some

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Speaker 3: became women's rights advocates and social reformers. One of them's

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Speaker 3: name was this great name, Mihitable Haskell Elder, and she

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Speaker 3: organized the eighteen seventy one Women's Rights Conference in Olympia, Washington,

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Speaker 3: and recruited one Susan B. Anthony as the territory delegate

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Speaker 3: for the National Women's Suffrage Association convention. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: in a lot of cases, these women did find agency

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Speaker 3: and they did get out of a better situation than

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Speaker 3: they were in back east.

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Speaker 1: Hey, So you want to take a break and then

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about the probably what was the real birth

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Speaker 1: of mail order marriages? Sure, Okay, we'll be right back,

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Speaker 1: all right, Chuck. So we've been talking to this point

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Speaker 1: about basically like government sanctioned schemes to kind of stabilize

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Speaker 1: male populations. There was also at the same time, beginning

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Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century, I think starting in England actually

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Speaker 1: in the eighteenth century, that was kind of simultaneously unfolding.

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Speaker 1: And that was the matrimonial advertisement industry, which to me

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Speaker 1: is like the real birth of the mail order marriage

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Speaker 1: industry that we understand today. But it was basically the

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Speaker 1: personal ads.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the birth of personal ads, the birth

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Speaker 3: of dating services. It's really interesting in that women would

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Speaker 3: put ads in London and then later on in the

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Speaker 3: United States, ads in the paper basically saying, you know, hi,

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Speaker 3: this is who I am, this is what I'm looking for.

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Speaker 3: I mean, much like you would see these days in

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Speaker 3: like a dating profile. And it was a way for

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Speaker 3: them to, you know, to take some agency over avoiding

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Speaker 3: the arranged marriage that their parents had set up for him,

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Speaker 3: and maybe get a little bit of choice of suitors.

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Speaker 1: Right, And I mean like that is like taking control

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Speaker 1: of your own of your own marriage prospects. And it

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Speaker 1: was I guess radical is probably a pretty good word.

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Speaker 1: But it picked up. It caught on, especially in the

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Speaker 1: US by the end of the nineteenth century, it really

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Speaker 1: started to catch on to where they were like magazines

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Speaker 1: that were like dedicated just to matrimonial advertisements. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like there was the Matrimonial News, which is actually the

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Speaker 1: most straight ahead of all of them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I like Cupid's Messenger. That sounds like a cute one.

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Speaker 1: What about Heart and Hand, Heart.

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Speaker 3: In Hand, and then to me this one, I guess

355
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Speaker 3: they were just trying to play it really safe, the

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Speaker 3: standard correspondence club.

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Speaker 2: Right, good day to you, right exactly.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so these things were like kind of popular

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Speaker 1: by the end of the nineteenth century. But then it's

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Speaker 1: like you said earlier, by the end of the nineteenth

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Speaker 1: century the beginning of the twentieth century, our ideas about

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Speaker 1: what constituted marriage or the reasons for marriage had transitioned

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Speaker 1: from financial arrangements into love in America, right, And so

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Speaker 1: there was simultaneously a popularity of matrimonial advertisements and people

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Speaker 1: taking control of their own marriage prospects, and at the

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Speaker 1: same time a criticism and a society generally looking down

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Speaker 1: upon people who did that kind of thing. So there

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Speaker 1: would be stories in the paper of people like sad

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Speaker 1: sack bachelors or lonely heart widows getting conned or swindled

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Speaker 1: or getting fool catfished basically is what you'd call it today.

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Speaker 1: And people love to read that kind of stuff and

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Speaker 1: laugh at their misfortune and look down on these people.

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Speaker 1: And that's where like the root of what people still

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Speaker 1: do today to the mail order marriage industry, at least

375
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Speaker 1: in America, really finds its roots in the twentieth century.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is when things started transitioning to overseas,

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Speaker 3: when American men started bringing in women from foreign countries,

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Speaker 3: and that's when I think that's when it became a

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Speaker 3: bit more of an industry. And this is when Congress

380
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Speaker 3: got kind of full on racist and trying to control

381
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Speaker 3: this thing because there was you know, there were women saying,

382
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Speaker 3: I don't want these women coming into our country and

383
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Speaker 3: disrupting our feminist agenda that we're trying to push. There

384
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Speaker 3: were men saying, we don't want this people from China

385
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Speaker 3: or Japan coming in here, and you know, they can

386
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Speaker 3: have babies once a year, and they like there were

387
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Speaker 3: senators literally saying these things. Yeah, and so they would

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Speaker 3: enact laws like, you know, we're going to be overrun basically,

389
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Speaker 3: So they would enact laws like the Chinese Exclusion Act

390
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Speaker 3: of eighteen eighty two to ban Chinese immigration. There was

391
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Speaker 3: a loophole for Japan with a nineteen oh seven Gentlemen's

392
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Speaker 3: Agreement which basically said, I you that a Japanese woman

393
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Speaker 3: and their kids could come over if they were married.

394
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Speaker 3: So there were Japanese single men already in the United

395
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Speaker 3: States that immigrated over here that would get married sight

396
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Speaker 3: unseen from like a catalog basically in order to gain

397
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Speaker 3: immigration status for the Japanese women.

398
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Speaker 1: That ultimately got shut down in nineteen twenty four with

399
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: the Immigration Act and they just said no Japanese immigration

400
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Speaker 1: of any kind now after that. So there was a

401
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 1: huge anti Asian thread from the late nineteenth century in

402
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 1: the early twentieth century based on immigration, and a lot

403
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Speaker 1: of that kind of centered on mail order marriages. But

404
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 1: then one of the other things that really kind of

405
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 1: cropped up as a result of male order marriages going

406
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Speaker 1: from like women back East or women coming from Europe,

407
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Speaker 1: to women coming from Asia to marry white American men.

408
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Speaker 1: There was this idea that the women were nothing more

409
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Speaker 1: than like looking for a green cart basically American citizenship,

410
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: trying to escape their own country. And you run into

411
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 1: that criticism today, I mean just as much as you

412
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Speaker 1: would have back in nineteen twenty four when they passed

413
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Speaker 1: the Immigration Act against Japanese people.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because you know, and this is from Zug's book.

415
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 3: She talks about you know, Mexican women, Greek women, Asian women,

416
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 3: Jewish women, Italian women, they were much more likely to

417
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 3: be deported under an LPC charge, which is a person

418
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 3: that is likely to become a public charge, basically like

419
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 3: to come over and sort of live off the government.

420
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Speaker 3: If they were from these countries. In a way around

421
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 3: that was to get married and get that green card.

422
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 3: So that criticism came pretty straight away, I think, right.

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Speaker 1: And then the other one is that they were basically

424
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: all just sex workers in disguise, coming over under the

425
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 1: guise of being mail order brides, but really they were

426
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:46,719
Speaker 1: coming over here to prostitute themselves and behave immrally. And again,

427
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: this is another accusation that you see today, except the

428
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: onuss or the focus the empathy, I guess has evolved

429
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 1: from being put on society being attacked by these immoral

430
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: women to the women themselves being trafficked by international criminals.

431
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 1: But it's still generally the same accusation. It's just been

432
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Speaker 1: it's just altered itself some you know what I'm saying.

433
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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And you know that sort of anti

434
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Speaker 3: feminist charge from American women saying that you know, these

435
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,479
Speaker 3: women from other countries are coming over here and they

436
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 3: do whatever their husbands tell them, and this is setting

437
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Speaker 3: us back.

438
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 2: They would say the same thing though, about war brides.

439
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 3: If you are a soldier in Korea or Vietnam and

440
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 3: brought a woman back over, they would have that same

441
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 3: kind of charge levied against them, saying, the only reason

442
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 3: you're bringing these women back is because of the power

443
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 3: and balance that is now gained. And you know that

444
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 3: can be fair to a certain degree. There's a lot

445
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 3: there is. It's really hard to talk about marriage like

446
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 3: this without talking about inequity and a power imbalance from

447
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 3: the beginning. Not to say that that doesn't change and

448
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 3: that there aren't great success stories where both partners are

449
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 3: equal and they both contribute and they both respect one

450
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 3: another's viewpoints.

451
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 2: But anytime you are.

452
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 3: In a situation where you are bringing someone over from

453
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 3: another country that is escaping a bad situation and looking

454
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 3: for a more prosperous situation and you can provide that

455
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 3: and you are paying the money to the service for

456
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 3: linking you, there's a power imbalance there from the beginning.

457
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there's a power imbalance in that. Like you

458
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: probably don't speak the language as the mail order bride

459
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: you don't have any friends, you don't have any family,

460
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: you don't have any social structure to depend on. The

461
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: only person you have to depend on is your husband. Right,

462
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: he's not very nice to you, or even worse abusive

463
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: towards you, you're in big trouble. And then it's also,

464
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: like you said, if you are escaping poverty back home,

465
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: you might show up with basically no money. And so

466
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: if you just found out that this guy is not

467
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 1: always cracked up to be, or he is abusive, or

468
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: he's actually got a terrible criminal record or terrible credit

469
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: or all sorts of stuff that you wouldn't have otherwise

470
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: come over for, you're stuck here. And according to some

471
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: human trafficking groups, that is a broad definition of human

472
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: trafficking where a person has moved from one place to

473
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: another for financial means and then ends up becoming dependent

474
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: financially in a situation that they otherwise wouldn't want to

475
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 1: be in, they would not have chosen to put themselves in.

476
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: That's as much trafficking and a broad definition as somebody

477
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: being kidnapped and forced into sex work.

478
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, and even if there is no you know, no

479
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 3: literal violence or abuse, that doesn't mean that it's an

480
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 3: equitable situation, because someone can essentially be a almost a

481
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 3: captive in their own home. Like you said, if they

482
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 3: don't speak the language, they have no advocation, so be

483
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 3: here for themselves or friends to help them and speak

484
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 3: up for them.

485
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: And it's you can see why it gets a bad

486
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: rap for sure.

487
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: So on the flip side, though, there have to be

488
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: men out there who just struck out consistently with America

489
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: or American women or men and took matters into their

490
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: own hands and looked abroad. And the best way to

491
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: do that is a marriage broker, and there's plenty of

492
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: places you can do that. And then also the other

493
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: problem with just basically characterizing mallard or brides as nothing

494
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: but like victims right for exploitation, is to really miss

495
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: the personalities of a lot of them. Where to put

496
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: yourself out there is a Maillard or bride shows a

497
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: or demonstrates like a lot of initiative compared to just

498
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: staying back home and making do with your lot in life.

499
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: Like if you're a widow in some countries and you

500
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: have kids, you might not be remarriable. There might not

501
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: be anybody who wants to marry you, and so you're

502
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: doomed to a life of solitude and single motherhood, whether

503
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: you like it or not. So if you just say, okay,

504
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: well that's my lot in life, that's what I'm doing, Okay, fine.

505
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: But if you say, you know what, no, there's another

506
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: way out, and it might not be the most tasteful

507
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: thing that I would have chosen for myself before, but

508
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: I really want to make sure my kids are taken

509
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: care of and I'm going to go seek a husband elsewhere.

510
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: That shows that demonstrates a lot of self starterness. I

511
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: guess that I think kind of undermines a lot of

512
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: the view of male ard to brises these kind of

513
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: like simple minded, docile women that can't fend for themselves

514
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: or stick up for themselves.

515
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's also a real slippery slope to judge.

516
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 3: I mean, we all think like, oh, you should only

517
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 3: fall in love with love at first sight, and that

518
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 3: should be all it is, and that should be what

519
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,479
Speaker 3: marriage is based on, full stop.

520
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 2: It's a real slippery slope to.

521
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 3: Judge someone other's someone else's situation if it's working out

522
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 3: for both of them, if if it is a rich

523
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 3: old guy in his sixties who is like, you know what,

524
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 3: I want to live out the last fifteen years of

525
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 3: my life.

526
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: With a partner.

527
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: And there's a beautiful young Ukrainian woman who's like, you

528
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 3: know what, I've got nothing going on over here. I

529
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 3: don't have a lot of prospects. My country is not,

530
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 3: you know, doing me any favors. And so I'm going

531
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 3: to go over and marry some rich guy and we're

532
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 3: going to be happy for the last fifteen years of

533
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 3: his life. And they travel and they do take cruises

534
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 3: and they have a good time together. Like it's a

535
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 3: real slippery slope for someone to come in and say, well, no,

536
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 3: that's wrong, because you guys just didn't meet and fall

537
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: in love like, you know, meeting in a bar drunk

538
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: one night like all Americans.

539
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: Again and again. That seems to be a long standing

540
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: criticism that stretches back at least a century here in

541
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: America too, for sure. Okay, so enough of that, Enough

542
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: of that, I feel like we should talk about some

543
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: of the nuts and bolts of the mail order marriage industry.

544
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, let's do it.

545
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: Well, let's start. So I found this contemporary journalism from.

546
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: Nineteen eighty six you'r CJ.

547
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: Right in the New York Times, and they basically just

548
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: checked in with the mail order marriage industry at the time,

549
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: and it gave a really good snapshot of how things

550
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: used to be. One of the reasons why mail order

551
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: brides were called mail order brides, because time was that

552
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: you would find a mail order marriage service, you would

553
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: subscribe to that service. The New York Times says anywhere

554
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: between fifty to five hundred dollars a year, and well

555
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: that was for a catalog annual subscribe fifty to five hundred.

556
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: And then every month or every couple months, or maybe

557
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: twice a month, probably not twice a month, you would

558
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: get a catalog that was clearly made by somebody who

559
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: didn't major in catalog making in college of pictures of

560
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: the of like a prospective bride, her stats, physical stats,

561
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,479
Speaker 1: her likes, her dislikes, that kind of thing. Basically a blurb,

562
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: and you were you'd flip through a catalog and you'd

563
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: get back in touch with the subscription service and say,

564
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,239
Speaker 1: I like number eight eight, nine, seven to two, and

565
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: I also like thirty seven fifty five, and you just

566
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: give them a list of women that you wanted them

567
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: to reach out to on your behalf, and all of

568
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: a sudden you would start exchanging letters. Little by little

569
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: you would narrow down the women that you were talking to,

570
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: and then you would eventually probably go over and meet

571
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: one and maybe in that trip marry them, like have

572
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: your wedding like that the day you meet them or

573
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: the day after you met them. And that was pretty

574
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: standard for the seven tventies and eighties as far as

575
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: mail order goes, and I think into the nineties as well.

576
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and of course it's all online now and depending

577
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 3: on which agency you go through, and like I said,

578
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 3: there are thousands. They offer a range of services to

579
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 3: you know, bleed you of as much money as they

580
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 3: can in the process, whether it's subscription fees, or will

581
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 3: will write your letters first letters for you and translate

582
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 3: them for a fee, or if you want to video

583
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: chat or have phone calls, we can arrange that for

584
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 3: a fee. Everything has a fee. I think this one

585
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 3: and this is from an Anti Trafficking International website article.

586
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: They said that estimates show people spend about six to

587
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,719
Speaker 3: ten thousand dollars. Each client spends about six to ten

588
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 3: thousand dollars, and I think this is for you know

589
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 3: the I guess more high end, more reputable ones. I

590
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 3: think I think some of those places are happy if

591
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 3: they get like five hundred buck out of you and

592
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 3: then you leave.

593
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: Well, I think you can be like a skin flint

594
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: husband and just do it strictly online and then go

595
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: meet them and marry them. But there are ones that

596
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: offer like tours for like five grand, which depending on

597
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: the country, may or may not be legal where you like,

598
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: if you went to Vietnam, it would be illegal, and

599
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: Vietnam mail order marriages the whole industry is illegal, but

600
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: it's also rampant there. And there are like whole hotels

601
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: that where a woman goes and stays and then tours

602
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: of like guys from Taiwan or South Korea or the

603
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: United States come through and meet them. And I think

604
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: human trafficking people are like and do god knows what

605
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:53,439
Speaker 1: else for money, and if you hit it off with one,

606
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: maybe you like start talking to them a little more

607
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: or you marry them on the spot, that kind of thing.

608
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: But there's like there's tours you can go on, and

609
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: depending on your view of the mail order marriage industry,

610
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: it's either a tour where you're going and meeting a

611
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: lot of prospective brides or it's basically a sex tour

612
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: at Vietnam.

613
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 3: Right, And they also will do things where it's really

614
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 3: hard to not read as a man sort of buying

615
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 3: a woman, where they say like, well, you know, we'll

616
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 3: put them up in this hotel and we'll have them

617
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 3: go checked out by our doctors and our psychologists, the

618
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 3: hob the psychological evaluation, and all of this information will

619
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 3: be sent to you, the man with the money, to

620
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 3: make your decision on whether or not you're going to

621
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 3: sort of.

622
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 2: Pay for this bride.

623
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 3: And it's really hard to look at that any other

624
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 3: way than that, like you really got to stretch your mind.

625
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 3: But then you will read a story about a couple

626
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 3: that are deeply in love for twenty years on and

627
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 3: who had kids in American and who had a great

628
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 3: life together, and they were like, no, it was really

629
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 3: more like an international dating service and they just sort

630
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 3: of match maked.

631
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: Or matchmated made matched.

632
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: Match maked.

633
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: I love it.

634
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 3: So it's like it's just I don't know if we've

635
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 3: ever had a topic where I was so like, all right,

636
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 3: well this is doesn't sound too bad, and like, oh

637
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 3: my god, this sounds terrible.

638
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I gotcha, Yeah, I can't remember that.

639
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 3: Maybe the industry, you know, Yeah, I mean I think

640
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,280
Speaker 3: it can be both those things.

641
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes you yes, and it surely is both

642
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: of those things. Again, the question is is one way

643
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: more than the other, and if so, which way is

644
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 1: it lopsided? And if so, do we need to like

645
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: follow Vietnam's footsteps and outlaw the marriage the mail order

646
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: marriage industry. You know what I'm saying. It's like, sure

647
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 1: that that may be a really big red flag, like

648
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: why did Vietnam outlaw an entire industry that's totally like

649
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: fine and legal here in the United States?

650
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 2: Right, So should we take a break.

651
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we should take a break and we'll

652
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: talk about mail order marriages in the Internet age because

653
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: things have changed a little bit.

654
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and some of the Lawsah right, right, all right,

655
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 3: we'll be right back.

656
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 2: All right, really quickly.

657
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 3: The great article I found that from the Anti Trafficking

658
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,879
Speaker 3: International site they did kind of talk a little bit

659
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 3: about what it means for your immigration status and how

660
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 3: because I mentioned earlier that Zug said, you know, who's

661
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 3: really at risk or undocumented immigrants because they have no

662
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 3: recourse but even if you do come over as a

663
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 3: mail order bride. And here's basically what happens. The Immigration

664
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 3: Marriage Fraud Amendment, which was an acted in eighty six

665
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 3: is basically, the husband will apply for a spouse or

666
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 3: a fiance visa and then the bride has to marry

667
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 3: the husband within three months upon arrival in the US.

668
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 3: So there's a three month sort of try it out period.

669
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 3: But the bride only has conditional resident status for two years.

670
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 3: So in that two year period at the end of

671
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 3: which they have to apply jointly for her permanent status

672
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 3: as a resident. In that conditional two year period, that

673
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 3: is the dodgy territory where they're basically like, the bride

674
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 3: is completely dependent on the husband. He holds all the cards.

675
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 3: They're very vulnerable at this point. They may have linguistic

676
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: isolation and or cultural isolation. They may not have that

677
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 3: social network that we were talking about, or be completely

678
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,720
Speaker 3: economically dependent on the husband, and they might be afraid

679
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 3: that he'll be like, you know what, it's in that

680
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: two year frame, I can still have you sent home,

681
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 3: so you better be nice. And this is basically where

682
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 3: they're saying, this is just sort of a a softer

683
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,919
Speaker 3: version of trafficking, right, even though and there is real

684
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 3: trafficking attached to this, we're not talking about that. We're

685
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 3: talking about women who do come over voluntarily, but they

686
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 3: still see that as a sort of a softer version

687
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 3: of that.

688
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: So and that power dynamic, and the one where you

689
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 1: mentioned where the men were supplied with all the information

690
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: where the mail order bride'shead basically none about the men.

691
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 1: That's changed in the last few years thanks to the

692
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: Internet and thanks to things like video chat and texting

693
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: and Facebook and Skype, and now women are able just

694
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: through the simple tools on the Internet to be much

695
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,439
Speaker 1: more discerning and discriminating in the men they choose. It's

696
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: not just like I'm going to put myself in a

697
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: catalog and cross my fingers. They're putting themselves out there

698
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: much more, at least ones that are are members of

699
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: legitimate mail order marriage brokerages. Right.

700
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that was there were very sadly a couple

701
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 3: of high profile murders leading up to the International Marriage

702
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 3: Broker Regulation Act in two thousand and five, and this

703
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 3: is where things really kind of changed as far as

704
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 3: at least trying to help adjust that power dynamic in

705
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 3: that if you are a legitimate brokerage agency, you're required

706
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 3: to provide these women with a lot of information now

707
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 3: about the men, whether or not they're on state or

708
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 3: national sex offender registries, background on their financials. They're given

709
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 3: information on domestic violence and like what that looks like,

710
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 3: you know, and how to go to the police and

711
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 3: stuff like that, and that you can do stuff like that,

712
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 3: arrest history, marital history, residence history if they have kids,

713
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 3: all kinds of stuff now that these agencies have to

714
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 3: provide about the men for the women.

715
00:40:55,480 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so people who are like, hey, that's not

716
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: that's not cool, man, if you were an American woman

717
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: just dating an American man, you wouldn't have access to

718
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: that kind of information. That's truly invasive. It is true.

719
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: It's also almost basically a straw man argument, because an

720
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: American woman is not going to be in the kind

721
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: of isolated, completely dependent situation that a male order bride's

722
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 1: going to be, and so the mail order bride needs

723
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: a lot more safeguards than just an average American woman

724
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 1: is going to need. So nice try, but that argument

725
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: doesn't hold water at all.

726
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, you talked earlier at the beginning about

727
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,919
Speaker 3: a lack of data and statistics. They don't even really

728
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 3: know how often this is happening, much less how many

729
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,760
Speaker 3: are successful and how many times they end like poorly

730
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 3: or an abuse and things like that. There are a

731
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 3: few numbers out there, I think the.

732
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 2: How do you pronounce that?

733
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 1: I want to say to hear he to hear E.

734
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 3: Justice Center they estimate between eleven thousand and sixteen thousand

735
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 3: women immigrate.

736
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 2: Each year through a marriage broker.

737
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 3: The I INS has it more like four to six thousand,

738
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 3: so you kind of can't really tell how much this

739
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 3: is even going on. So it's really hard to you know,

740
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 3: like you said, if you don't have the data. For

741
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 3: nubes like us, it's kind of hard to form a

742
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 3: hard opinion.

743
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: Right, But it's not just nubes like us who don't

744
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: have the data, Like, no one has the data, so

745
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, no one can form a hard opinion.

746
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: And if in that case, you have to treat it

747
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: on like a case by case basis, and like if

748
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: you have nothing but anecdotal data or evidence, you can't

749
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: just say like, yes, the mail order marriage industry is

750
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: just a front for human trafficking and sex trafficking. That's

751
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: that is a moral panic that you've just started right there.

752
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: So we have to go out and get the data.

753
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: But at the same time, that doesn't mean you can't

754
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: simultaneously offer support to women who might be suffering from that,

755
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: Like what if it turns out to be true, Like, yeah,

756
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: it's all just a big front for human trafficking, and

757
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 1: these women need help roll out the red carpet, like

758
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: get those services broadcasts, like figure out how to get

759
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: them help if they need it, and see if anybody

760
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: comes out of the woodwork In the meantime, while you're

761
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: conducting those studies to come up with that data. One

762
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: way or another, it can't hurt. It's just money, and

763
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 1: that's a pretty good thing to spend money on, if

764
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: you ask me.

765
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree.

766
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 3: There are some studies that show spousal abuse rates are

767
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 3: about three times higher. But this is just for immigrant

768
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 3: women married to US husbands. I don't think I think

769
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 3: that includes all immigrantmen. I don't think it's just mail

770
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 3: order situations. So that's data that doesn't exactly help, but

771
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 3: it does shine a light on that power dynamic as

772
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 3: a whole.

773
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, And I couldn't I couldn't tell that.

774
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: Dave mentioned that there were three murder women male order

775
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: brides in the United States, I think between twenty ten

776
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: and twenty twenty maybe, And if using the high the

777
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: high number that the to hear E Justice Center uses

778
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: for how many came over every year, you got one

779
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty thousand of them. So three murders out

780
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: of one hundred and sixty thousand population is I thin

781
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: zero point eighteen percent. But out of all the women,

782
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: all the married women in America, it's like sixty four

783
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: million married women seventeen two hundred and fifty on average

784
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: died but were murdered by their partner in that same time,

785
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,879
Speaker 1: which is two point six percent. So I probably got

786
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: the math wrong. But if it is right, then that

787
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: means you're actually less likely to be murdered by your

788
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: husband as a male order bride than you are just

789
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 1: as an American woman who was married in just part

790
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 1: of the general population.

791
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 2: So that's great, right. I think one of those status

792
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 2: you can't feel good about.

793
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 1: No, exactly, that's a great That is an excellent point

794
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: for sure, Chuck. I mean, I think anybody you're going

795
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,359
Speaker 1: for sure, it shines the light that we need to

796
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: basically do away with spousal murder. I think we can

797
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: all get behind that, right.

798
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 2: Yeah.

799
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 3: What it What it does though, again, is it makes

800
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 3: you think, maybe let's concentrate on the real problems, right,

801
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 3: And if that's not, if the male order bride situation

802
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 3: isn't the real problem, then we just and we all

803
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 3: know this, but we have a real domestic violence problem

804
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 3: in this country anyway.

805
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the same thing. What was the last one

806
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 1: we talked about, Oh, the stranger danger where it was like, oh, no, actually,

807
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 1: your cousin is going to like rape and murder you

808
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: way more frequently than just some strangers. But let's all

809
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:50,359
Speaker 1: concentrate on the stranger. Right, your spouse is possibly going

810
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: to murder you, but let's ignore that and concentrate on

811
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: male order brides being murdered instead, even if it's just

812
00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 1: a much less of a chance. Like that's the it's

813
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: the definition of a moral panic, and you got to

814
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: sort those out because they obfuscate important things.

815
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, at the beginning of the episode

816
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 3: you mentioned LGBTQ rights. That's why we call it male

817
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 3: order marriages now because in twenty thirteen, with the Supreme

818
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 3: Court striking down parts of the defensive Marriage Act it allowed.

819
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 3: And there has been a, you know, since then, a

820
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 3: sort of a big time rise in LGBTQ people doing

821
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 3: the exact same thing. And a lot of times these

822
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 3: people in other countries are literally fleeing for their life

823
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 3: because they have no rights in their own country as

824
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 3: a person from that community. So that's one of those

825
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 3: where you look at and you're like, they could literally

826
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 3: be saving someone's life by getting them out of their

827
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 3: country over here.

828
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: Yep, that's right.

829
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: And men do it too.

830
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 3: I saw there was a I was curious about male

831
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 3: order husbands and if that was even a thing. And

832
00:46:55,360 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 3: apparently Ireland in recent years has got some of this

833
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 3: going on, where these irishmen are putting themselves out there

834
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 3: and saying, hey, I'm a strapping young Irishman and I'm

835
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 3: happy to come marry you and live in your country.

836
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: Very nice.

837
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 2: It's a thing in Ireland. Did not know that.

838
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 1: I had no idea either, but leave it to Ireland

839
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: to just try something new. So good for you, Ireland,

840
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: good for you. You got anything else on mail order marriages?

841
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 2: I got nothing else.

842
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 3: I can take off of my roller skates now this

843
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 3: one was it.

844
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 2: Was danger at every turn.

845
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 1: I thought you did great. I thought we did great.

846
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: It's good. I'm pretty sure. Oh god, I hope so well.

847
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about mail order marriages,

848
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: go check it out and see what you think for yourself.

849
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: Don't take our words for it. And since I said

850
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: don't take our words for it, it's time for listener mail.

851
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 2: Listener mail.

852
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 3: This is a sad case, so a bit of a

853
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,479
Speaker 3: trigger warning here, especially if you've lost a family member

854
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 3: to COVID. But I had it back and forth with

855
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 3: this gentleman, and he really felt strongly about reading this

856
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 3: on the air in the name of getting people vaccinated. Hey, guys,

857
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 3: haven't written in quite some time. Been listening since two

858
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 3: thousand and eight. You've been around for so many personal milestones,

859
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 3: even though we've never met, even though I did ask

860
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 3: you the best question ever at your live show in Phoenix.

861
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 3: My father taught me how to play guitar. I've been

862
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 3: playing for nearly thirty years because of his influence. There's

863
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 3: never been a question of Gibson or Fender in my family.

864
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,919
Speaker 3: It's always been clear where a Fender family. He played

865
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 3: a strat and I played a telly last This last Tuesday,

866
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 3: I said goodbye to my father. COVID had done its

867
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 3: job and completely overtaken his body.

868
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:42,760
Speaker 2: After he passed.

869
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 3: Later that day, I went into my truck and took

870
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 3: a few minutes and decided I needed some Josh and

871
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 3: Chuck to get my mind off of things. And I

872
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 3: was absolutely shocked. On that day Leo Fender and Les

873
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 3: Paul came through in my feed. My father and I

874
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 3: did not have anything we bonded over more than our

875
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 3: love of music and play guitar, an affinity for Fender,

876
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,879
Speaker 3: and a dislike of all things Gibson. Sorry, Chuck, there

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00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 3: could not have been more perfect topic to help me

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00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 3: through one of the hardest days of my life. I

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00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 3: look forward to someday when I might be able to

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00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 3: shake your hands after a good hand washing and sanitization,

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00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 3: and just thank you for being with me through so

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00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 3: many good days in so many bad days.

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00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 2: And he included a song that he gave his father

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Speaker 2: that he wrote for him.

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00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 3: It's great and this is from Eddie, and Eddie said,

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00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 3: please read this on the air. He said, my mother

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00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 3: decided to get vaccinated because of this, and they were

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00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 3: not vaccinated and he said, just please send the message

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00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 3: out to people that it can happen to you and

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00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 3: your family, and just go out there and get that

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00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 3: vaccination already.

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00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: Thanks for that, Eddie, and definitely our condolences on your

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00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 1: father's passing. I'm really sorry to hear that, but I'm

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00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 1: glad we could bring you a little measure of comfort

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00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: at a terrible time. So thank you for letting us

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00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,479
Speaker 1: a bit about that, and also thank you for telling

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00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 1: everybody get vaccinated, because it's a pretty good thing to

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00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: use your position for. So I think, like Eddy said,

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00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: go get vaccinated. Yeah, we said it, Go get vaccinated.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, agreed.

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00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, if you want to get in

902
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 1: touch with us, you can send us an email. The

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00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 1: Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

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Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.