1 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, Welcome back to Killers amongst Us, 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: the production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. What happened to 3 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: this beautiful girl, Karina pa Toronto? Her father Phil finds 4 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: her body. Now the search for a killer leagues begin 5 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: to pour in. Still no results. Can't catch who killed 6 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: this beautiful girl. What they found made even a hardened 7 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: detective turn away. Nancy Grace, Killers amongst Us, give me 8 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: a sense for the injuries Karina summer facial injuries. She 9 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: also had bruising on her body. We believe from being 10 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: dragged through those weeds welf area. So that's what we believe. 11 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: We're that bruising on he came from. And when you 12 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: found her, she was still grasping to the weeds. She 13 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: had the weeds, stems of the weeds in her hands. 14 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: What does that tell you she thought not to go 15 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: into those weeds. Contrary to several reports, Chief Boys now 16 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: confirms to me there was no DNA evidence founded the 17 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: scene to show that there would be rapist completed his 18 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,559 Speaker 1: sexual assault. Karina's dad took me to that jogging trail 19 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: in Howard Beach where police found his beautiful daughter. I 20 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: don't know if this person was waiting for her, I 21 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: don't know if this person was following her. I don't 22 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: know if this person knew her routine, drove to the 23 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: other end and met her head on. You were hearing 24 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: our friends at Crime Watch Daily. That was Chris Hanson 25 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: with detective Robert Boyce with me, doctor Tim Gallagher, the 26 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: medical examiner for the State of Florida, Sharat LaPoint, DNA 27 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: genealogical expert with the gene Hunter LLC, renowned psychotherapist, doctor 28 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: Robbie Ludwig, Steve Lampley, detective and Tony DeStefano News Day 29 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: reporter on the story from the very beginning, I want 30 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: to go straight to doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for 31 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: the State of Florida. Doctor Gallagher, what can we learn 32 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: from Karina's body? Well, we can learn a few things, Nancy. 33 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: Number one was, of course, you know how she died, 34 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: in the manner in which she died. We can look 35 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: on her body for bruises and injuries that are a 36 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: fatal nature, and we could determine then the manner and 37 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,239 Speaker 1: cause of her death. You know, at the beginning, to 38 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: Tony DeStefano Newsday reporter, as you just heard it, was 39 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: stated that there was no DNA, but I don't think 40 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: that's accurate. Well, I think what Chris Hansen said, there 41 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: was no DNA which indicated that the killer completed a 42 00:02:52,680 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: sexual act, meaning semen for possibly saliva. There was DNA 43 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: found on Corina's body. There was DNA found on her 44 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: cell phone, and there was DNA found under her fingernails. 45 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,679 Speaker 1: So there was DNA. Uh, you know, it was touch 46 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: DNA except for the stuff under the fingernails, which was 47 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: more of a skin sample from what I understand. But 48 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: there was DNA. But that's all they had in the beginning, 49 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: and certainly that's really all they wound up with for 50 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: a very long time. What type of DNA was obtained 51 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: from her, well, it was what they'd call a large 52 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: measure touched DNA, meaning it wasn't blood or saliva direct 53 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: bodily fluids from the suspect. It was skin cells that 54 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: had rubbed off through the touching of Karina on her body. 55 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: That's that's a large measure what they found. Yet no 56 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: match to the DNA. To Tony's Stephano Newsday reporter, tips 57 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: begin to pour in and no matter how hard police try, 58 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: no success. Listen over two hundred and fifty leads where 59 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: received from the public, and over seventeen hundred investigation investigative 60 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: reports were prepared. At one point, it seemed the case 61 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: had gone cold. She had the DNA under her nails, 62 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: she had touched DNA on her on her back, and 63 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: there was more DNA on the cell phone. Tony to 64 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: Stephano Newsday reporter Tony tell me about these hundreds of 65 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: tips pouring in. Oh, they were getting plenty of tips. 66 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: I mean they were getting Well, when a case like 67 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 1: this happens, the cops are going to get plenty of tips, 68 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 1: particularly in a rather cloistered and contained community like Howard 69 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 1: Beach where everybody knows everybody. Uh, they're going to get tips. 70 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: They're going to be tips coming in from all over 71 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: and from outside. But they were not leading to anything fruitful. 72 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,239 Speaker 1: I mean the cops were going out, they were taking 73 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: DNA reference samples from any any one of a number 74 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: of people. You know, I would say hundreds of people. 75 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: The search for a killer is on joining me. Karina's father, 76 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: Phil to Toronto. Phil, when you were first told that 77 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: there was no DNA, there were all these leads and 78 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: tips being called in cops weren't getting anywhere. What was 79 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: going on in your mindfield? I was working. I was hunting. 80 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: Every single day. I put up probably five thousand flyers. 81 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: I went on any network, any news program, any radio 82 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: show that would have me. I didn't stop. Every day 83 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: I was working. I was hunting for this killer. I 84 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: was putting up bannis, you know, and I advertised, you know, 85 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: quart a million dollars reward for any lead that would 86 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: lead to the conviction of the killer. So that's what 87 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: I was doing at that time. Joining me right now, 88 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: doctor Robbie Ludwig, psychotherapist, Doctor Robbie that I mean, that 89 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: was all consuming. I remember being with Phil on Doctor 90 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: Oz and all the many times Phil joined us here 91 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: as the search for Karina's killer went on here on HLN, 92 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: anywhere we could publicize the case. That that burning quest 93 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: where you can't sleep, you can't eat, you can't think. 94 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: What is that following the death of someone you love. Well, 95 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: it's a tremendous amount of grief. And the grief is 96 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: very different when a child is murdered, because the thought 97 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: process goes directly to what happened during those final moments. 98 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: What kind of pain were they in what kind of 99 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,679 Speaker 1: fear were they experiencing? And as a parent, any parent 100 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,239 Speaker 1: knows this. You want to protect your child from everything, 101 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: from any kind of pain, so it's extraordinarily traumatic and painful. 102 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: The loss of a child is the worst kind of 103 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: loss any parent can experience, and then due to murder, 104 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: it's even more challenging to try to get through that 105 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: kind of grief. The inability to sleep, the inability to eat, 106 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,119 Speaker 1: the inability to think straight. I mean, Phil the Toronto 107 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: I remember I couldn't stand to even hear a clock 108 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: tick after my fiancee was murdered. In the days following 109 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: Karina's death, What was your life like? Well, it hasn't 110 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: changed much, Nancy. Basically, yeah, you're still You're still in disbelief. 111 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: I still don't believe it. You know, it seems like 112 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: it happened yesterday. Those first few days are complete blur or. 113 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: I don't remember what we did, I don't remember who 114 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: was here. It's impossible to even recall how we function. 115 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: But you know your body does function. But it hadn't 116 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: change much. I mean, the pain, the grief, the anguish, 117 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: it's still here every day, doesn't go away. Robbie, I 118 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: don't know how you move forward with that, but especially 119 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 1: when the killer remains at large, I don't know how 120 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: he put one foot in front of the other. Doctor Robbie, Well, 121 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: I'm sure, as anyone will tell you, you go into 122 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: just automatic mode, just putting one step in front of 123 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: the other. So it feels like your body is moving forward, 124 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: but your mind is just kind of stuck in this trauma. 125 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: What we know about traumas that it becomes three dimensional. 126 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 1: And as your guest said that it feels like it 127 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: happened yesterday, because it probably is more vivid than what 128 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: happened an hour ago. And then the quest and the 129 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: purpose to find justice sometimes is what can keep parents 130 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: going to finally have their day in court, to find 131 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: the killer, to make sure that this never happens again, 132 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: To find the meaning if you can in the horror, 133 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: I think is what keeps many people going forward. Well, 134 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, to Karina's father Phil, the 135 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: Toronto you were actually pulled out of Karina's funeral to 136 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: give DNA. Well, two police officers show it up. They came. 137 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: You know, the week was only one day and it 138 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: was two days later, so we were we didn't know 139 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: what was going on. Two detectives showed it up and 140 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: said we'd like to see you in the back room. 141 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: So we went into the back room and they said 142 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 1: we'd like a DNA example, and I said take whatever 143 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: you want. I said, if you need my you could 144 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: take my arm. And they swabbed me right there at 145 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: the foot of Apala because everybody was in suspect. You know, Phil, 146 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: I know that you, because of who you are, do 147 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: not hold that against the cops. And you were happy, 148 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: happy to give your DNA. But I've got to say 149 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: the timing was, let's just say, very unusual. Phil Vatronto. 150 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: I think they wanted to eliminate me as soon as 151 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: possible because rumors were flying that the father did it. 152 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: So they want to eliminate me as soon as possible 153 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: so they could focus on who really killed her. To 154 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: Steve Lampley, detective, I thought that was harsh, But the 155 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: cops did have to get Phil Vatronto's DNA. Her own father. 156 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: He was the last one to talk to her before 157 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: she went running. He's the one that called police in 158 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: law enforcement to come search. He's the one that started 159 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: searching for her. He couldn't stand still he had to 160 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: go look for himself. He is the one that found 161 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: Karina's body out in the middle of really a very 162 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: wild life in a very wild environment. He found her, 163 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: he says, from really divine inspiration led him to a 164 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: certain spot. Now I believe Phil the Toronto, but I 165 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: guarantee you a jury is going to want to know 166 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,119 Speaker 1: that he was led to her body by divine intervention, 167 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: not because he knew where her body was. That's why 168 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,839 Speaker 1: they had to get the DNA. Steve lamp play of course, Nancy, 169 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: And like he said, they want when police officers are investigators, 170 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: began the investigation, and when we talked about this before, 171 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: they started with the inner circle, and they worked their 172 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: way out, and they did want to eliminate and they 173 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: did want to put to rest these rumors that the 174 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: father was involved. And I will probably at the puneral 175 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: home at least to me, probably was not the best 176 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:10,719 Speaker 1: place maybe afterwards, But being regardless of that and and 177 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: the bad timing, they did need to do that, and 178 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: they did need to eliminate the inner circle as quickly 179 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: as possible to quell those the gossip and the rumors. Well, 180 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: you know what, I never heard those rumors fill the Trono, 181 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: what rumor that you were involved in Karina's murder? Who 182 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: would say that? They're still saying that, Nancy, that there 183 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: was a certain group of people that on social media 184 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: that still think that the father did it. So this 185 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: continues to follow me. It doesn't bother me. It bothers 186 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: my wife more than it bothers me. But it doesn't 187 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: bother me because you have to take it from where 188 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: it comes. Doctor Robbie Ludwig, I guess I need a shrink. 189 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: Why would people do that? I mean, they got DNA 190 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: Karina's body. It does not match her father feel Vatronto. So, 191 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: as I always say to my children, okay, and I 192 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: say very often to defense attorneys, let's follow that argument 193 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: through to its logical conclusion. So, in order to reconcile 194 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: the misbelief that Phil Vatronto had anything to do with 195 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: his daughter's murder, you would have to believe that she 196 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: goes jogging, that someone else comes and leaves their DNA 197 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: on her body, and then Phil comes and murders her, 198 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: or that Fiel murders her and then someone else happens 199 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 1: upon her body and leaves their DNA on her that's 200 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: what that means. That's the logical conclusion of believing phil 201 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: Vatronta had anything to do with her murder. My question, 202 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: do you psychotherapy wise, is what is wrong with people? Well, 203 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: when it comes to that sounds almost like a conspiracy theory, right, 204 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: and for whatever reason, to certain people, that idea is preferable. 205 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: And what we know, Nancy, is that when people are 206 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: coming up with different theories, there's a confirmation bias, and 207 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: people like to believe in their own rightness, and then 208 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: they eliminate the facts or they bend the facts so 209 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: that it makes sense or is in alignment with their 210 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: belief system. What we do know, and you know this, Nancy, 211 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: is that very often murders happen you look at the 212 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: people in the family, but clearly that's not the case here. 213 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: But I think that you have to look at the 214 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: culture that we live in and perhaps why certain people 215 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: want to believe that it might be the father in 216 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: this case instead of a young black man and whatever 217 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: that means to people. So I think that there's a 218 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: lot more that's going on here, But basically it's confirmation bias. 219 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: When people think things through, they're thinking through emotionally not factually, 220 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: and that's where the law comes in hopefully. But why 221 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: you know that sounds like a very esoteric explanation, Doctor 222 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: Robbie Ludwig, And I appreciate all of your education and 223 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: all of your training and your Facebook live show that 224 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: you do from Time Square and all that. I'm impressed. 225 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: But I guess that I'm trying to figure out is 226 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: why are people so mean and hateful to fill the 227 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: Tronto and his wife, after what they've lived through and 228 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: are still living through right this very minute, to go 229 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: online and post that he murdered Karina. It it makes 230 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: my stomach hot on the inside just to saying it. Well, listen, 231 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: there is a very cruel and murderous drive that exists 232 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: in all of us. And there's keyboard courage, and we 233 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: see this a lot with people who are victims. Sometimes 234 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: people will join on the bandwagon and it's their opportunity 235 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:01,479 Speaker 1: to to bully and to be aggressive and to feel powerful. 236 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: There must be something about the storyline they don't like, 237 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: or they find frightening or they find scary, so to 238 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: blame the father makes it, in their mind feel okay, 239 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: or that the father is worthy of getting this level 240 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: of aggression. Listen, this is every parent's nightmare. You can't 241 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: watch and you can't watch your kids twenty four seven. 242 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: And especially if you have athletic kids that are interested 243 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: in staying healthy. They're going to go out for a jog, 244 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: They're going to go and work out, They're gonna walk 245 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: around the block. And on some level, to know that 246 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: some stranger can come in and rape and kill your 247 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: child and to not have the answers to these questions 248 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: is a very frightening scenario that many people can't think 249 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: through and tolerate. And now that we have social media 250 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: and people can be anonymously mean, sadly, that's very often 251 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: where people go. I'm looking at the evidence here. We 252 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: know that Carina had been strangled so tightly that a 253 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: handprint was actually found on her neck, DNA from her 254 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: killer found under her nails, on her back, on her 255 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: phone which was found in the weed several feet away. 256 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking the crime scene through Phil the Toronto 257 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: at the moment the cops showed up at the wake 258 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: or at the funeral parlor and told you to go 259 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: to another room. Do you remember that moment and what 260 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 1: went through your mind? Yes? I remember it. And went 261 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: through what through my mind was, yeah, sure, let's go. 262 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: You know, it was instantaneous. I had no objections and 263 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: I actually probably thought they were going to kill me 264 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: they caught somebody, because we thought that this was going 265 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: to be side of you know, right away. We were 266 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,239 Speaker 1: so naive on how these things play out, you know. 267 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: And editates two and a half years to come to 268 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: a conclusion. I had no objections whatsoever. You know, I'm 269 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: just trying to remember, and doctor Robbie, you and I've 270 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: talked about this many times. When I think back on 271 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: my fiance's funeral, it was a horrible, horrible blur. I 272 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: saw a portion of his face above his coffin. I 273 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: passed out. To this day, when I smell carnations, it 274 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: makes me physically sick. And how Phil Vitrano had the 275 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: strength to go in another room and say, here, sure, 276 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: take my DNA, I don't know how I did it. Well. 277 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: Phil wanted justice and he knew that he was innocent, 278 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: and that's the way you behave when you're innocent of 279 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: a crime. You want to get to the bottom of 280 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: who the real killer is here, who the real rapist 281 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: is here? And so that's I can't speak for him, 282 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: but we have him here so he could validate what 283 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: I'm saying. He was an innocent man who wanted to 284 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: find the real killer, whatever it took. At that moment, 285 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: he was thinking protectively of his daughter. We don't stop 286 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: protecting our children just because they're no longer with us. 287 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: We still remain in protective mode. Joining me now, Shara Lapointe, 288 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: DNA genealogical expert. She is with the gene Hunter ge 289 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: n E Hunter LLC. Shara, there was DNA at first. 290 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 1: When the police thought there was no DNA, they were wrong. 291 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 1: DNA was obtained from her cell phone, from her body, 292 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: from under her fingernails. Why couldn't they find a match? Shara? Well, 293 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: Nancy law enforcement has access to databases that have DNA 294 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: from criminals. If someone is arrested for a violent crime, 295 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: their DNA gets put in these databases. The problem is 296 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: a lot of these criminals are smart and they don't 297 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: get caught, or sometimes they haven't committed other crimes, so 298 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: their DNA is not in the system. So when the 299 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: DNA runs through this CODA system and they look for matches, 300 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: it's not found. Sure when you said codas to what 301 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 1: are you referring. CODIS is the Combined DNA Index System. 302 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: It's a nationwide system that all law enforcement can update 303 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: DNA data two, so you can search for criminals and 304 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: typically in law enforcement, the DNA that you will find 305 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: if you get a hit in CODAS is either a 306 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 1: person an identity hit, or an evidentiary or a forensic hit. 307 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,959 Speaker 1: A forensic hit means that you get information, but you 308 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: don't get a direct hit on the killer. An identity 309 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: hit means you can identify the name of the killer 310 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: because they're in the data bank. Now, in this day 311 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: and age, people are required to give their DNA when 312 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: they are convicted of a felony in almost every jurisdiction. 313 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: But there are other ways. You have to give DNA 314 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: your fingerprints. For instance, when I became an assistant district attorney, 315 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: I had to give my fingerprints. In many, many lines 316 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: of work, you have to give fingerprints. DNA is another matter. Amazingly, 317 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: even with a strong DNA sample, they could not get 318 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: a hit. Phil Viatronto, when you first learn there was 319 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 1: DNA from the killer, you believe the case will be 320 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: solved very quickly. Didn't you do so? Do Chief Voice? 321 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: Because he told me he was in my house and 322 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: he said, we have DNA and he said this is 323 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: a Class three felon, meaning that he believed that this 324 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: couldn't be the killer's first time doing this. He thought 325 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: that we were going to get a DNA hit because 326 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: this is not a typical first crime for someone to commit. 327 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,959 Speaker 1: It was so horrific, you'll usually work your way up 328 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: to that to murder. Of course, the search was on. 329 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at PIXI eleven, John Muller. 330 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: There are some new details in the murdered Queen's Jago 331 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: karina Va, Toronto case. New video shows the thirty year 332 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: old on her last run, a short time before she 333 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted and strangled. Another video obtained by the 334 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: show Crime Watch Daily, shows the Toronto entering Spring Creek 335 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: Park and Howard Beach on August second, about five hours 336 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: before her body was discovered. Police have a DNA profile 337 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: of a killer, but have not been able to match 338 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: it to anyone. Investigators say her relatives an ex boyfriend 339 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: have all been cleared as suspects. At the moment, we 340 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: do believe that was a stranger rape in the sense 341 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: that they have very extensively looked into her relationships over time, 342 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: where she worked, relationships, boyfriends, etc. And none of that 343 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: has come to fruitions. To Tony to Stephano Newsday reporter, 344 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: we were just hearing about actual video of Karina just 345 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: before she was ambushed. I remember that video. It's of 346 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: her jogging along. You see she's got earbuds in her ears. 347 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: Where did that come from? It came from a home 348 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: video or a home surveillance system set up on one 349 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: of the homes not far from Karna's house. I believe 350 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: it was around the corner, you know, one of these 351 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: normal security videos that family's put up, and that's where 352 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: it came from and caught her. And that snippet I 353 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,360 Speaker 1: think probably was about five seconds, is that I've heard 354 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: jogging with her earbudge in and they're sort of loping 355 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: up the street to the park. I have watched that 356 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: video over and over and over. I've done it in 357 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: slow mo I put a spotlight on her earbuds. I've 358 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: done it in such slow motions so I can look 359 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: around to see if I saw anybody in the background. Phil, 360 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: did you do the same thing? Of course they did, 361 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: of course they did. That was typical normal thing to do. 362 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: I mean, we had a video of her, and I 363 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: was actually seeing faces in the weeds, like imagining, look 364 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: is it isn't that a person that's hiding in the 365 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: weeds over there? And you know, you were looking at 366 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,719 Speaker 1: anything that you could could find that that could show somebody, 367 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 1: show somebody, but there was nothing. Now, you know, when 368 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 1: I hear him say, doctor Robby Ludwood, psychotherapist, that he 369 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: was seeing faces in the weeds, that just breaks my heart. 370 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: He was looking so hard to catch his daughter's killer. Yeah, 371 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: so you know, of course, you know you're you're looking, 372 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: You're wanting to find details. You want to find some 373 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: kind of indication of who this murder is, who this 374 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 1: murderer is, And you know, you begin to see things, 375 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: you begin to over you know, rely on your eyes 376 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: and see what you want to see. And again we 377 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: hear the desperation and the motivation to try to find 378 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: out who's responsible for committing such a horrific crime, a 379 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: stranger crime, which is which is so hard to kind 380 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: of wrap one's head around. Why would a stranger want 381 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: to kill an innocent girl who has her whole life 382 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: ahead of her. It just is incomprehensible. You know, I'm 383 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 1: thinking through the evidence, it just it confounds belief that 384 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: you have her on video, you have DNA, you have 385 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: a timeline, but you can't catch the killer. As the 386 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: weeks drag on, fill the Toronto. What did that do 387 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: to you and your wife? Like I said, before I 388 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,719 Speaker 1: was working, I was hunting. Every day. I would go 389 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: out and I put up fliers and I was looking. 390 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: I was I walked the trail from beginning to end 391 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: a hundred times looking for any piece of evidence. I 392 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: found goggles that you would wear if you were on 393 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: a dirt bike, and I didn't touch them. I call 394 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 1: the cops, I said, listen, I found this day came 395 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: and they did a DNA test on it. So I 396 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: was involved at that point. My wife, on the other hand, 397 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: you know, she was not involved with the search. So 398 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: she was in more pain and more anguish and she 399 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 1: just didn't know what to do. You know, we did 400 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: news conferences and she was involved in that, but she 401 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: wasn't involved in the actual putting up flies and the 402 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: icll of it hunting, because that's what I was doing. 403 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,199 Speaker 1: I was hunting. Take a listen to our friends at 404 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: ABC seven the family of Koreana Pa Toronto marks six 405 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: months since her murder. It is one of the city's 406 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 1: most high profile crimes, and her family pushing for a 407 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: type of DNA testing that could find the person who 408 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: killed her. We were live on Facebook as they made 409 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: that announcement. I would miss News Reporter Marcus sold Us 410 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: is live from Howard Beach with more on what the 411 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 1: family is pushing for. Marcus no doubt about him. Philma 412 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: Toronto says he is in a war fighting to find 413 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: his daughter's killer, and on this the six mark since 414 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: her death, he is calling on state lawmakers had changed 415 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: the guidelines regarding DNA testing. The Vitranos, Members of the 416 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: Howard Beach community, as well as elected officials, gathered at 417 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: the spot where Karina Vatranto was last seen alive. The 418 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: thirty year old was found dead last August in the 419 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: woods of Spring Creek Park that's where she would routinely jog. 420 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: Profilers who have studied the case believe the killer may 421 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: have been a park regular who since disappeared from the area. Now. 422 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: Vatranto fought off her attacker and DNA was recovered, but 423 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: there's been no match in federal and state databases. The 424 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: Vatrantos are urging either the state legislature or the state 425 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: Commission on Forensic Science to authorize what's called familial matching, 426 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: that is, the widening of the screening process the see 427 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: of genetic relatives of the killer are in the database. 428 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: New York does not allow it, but ten other states do. 429 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: The main opposition comes from the ACLU, which cites privacy concerns. 430 00:28:54,560 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: The Vatranos naturally disagree. There is nothing that any education, 431 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: hated scientists or opposer could ever ever tell me that 432 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: could could justify not using a tool to find a murderer. 433 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: That is the ass there. You know, there's no substitute 434 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: for good hard police work, police investigative work. Well, the 435 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: patronos will testify at a public hearing next week and 436 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: they hope to get those guidelines changed. As for the investigation, 437 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: the NYPD says it continues to pursue leads and the 438 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: reward in this case is well passed the two hundred 439 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: thousand dollars mark. You know, when I think about what 440 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: you were going through at that time, fill Latronto and 441 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: then you have to take on the legislature to get 442 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: familial DNA. But first to share La point DNA genealogical 443 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: expert with the gene hunter Shara, what is familial DNA, 444 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: So Nancy, familial DNA is actually um it's a DNA 445 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: search that looks for matches when you don't have an 446 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: exact match in these databases. So we have normally twenty 447 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: markers that are looked at when the DNA is run 448 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: through the CODA system. If you get a match at 449 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: twenty markers, you you have your perpetrator. But we can 450 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: also look for less markers than twenty. If you get 451 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: a match at about ten or ten markers or so, 452 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: that suggests a person is closely related, could be a parent, 453 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: a child, or a sibling. So it's another way at 454 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: looking through the DNA to find the answers. During all 455 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: of this, the family doing everything they can to find 456 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: Carina's killer. To Tony DeStefano Newsday reporter, what was going 457 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: on behind the scenes to solve the case, Well, they 458 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: were stumped, as they admitted many times, they had the 459 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: DNA and what they did was, you know, they couldn't 460 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: really use familiar DNA because it wasn't improved in the 461 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: state yet. But what they were doing was sort of 462 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: changing their m and they started to go back into 463 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: old police reports, even those that didn't have anything to 464 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: do with any suspicious activity like a homicide or a robbery, 465 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: and they started to call through previous sightings of people 466 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: or arrests of people, or people who were stopped in 467 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: the Howard Beach neighborhood. And they were really up against it, 468 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: and they had to sort of change their tactic because 469 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: the traditional tactic of DNA searching and assessing all the 470 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: leads that came in it wasn't working for them. So 471 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: they had to go further back and look at things 472 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: that they might not have ordinarily looked at, looking at brakens, 473 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: attempted brakens, people that were loitering, people even that had 474 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: thrown out trash in the area, people that had littered 475 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: along that stretch of road. I remember it so well. 476 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: Filled the Toronto cops were actually pulling up police reports 477 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: of perpetrators that had been sitting on cars, drinking beer 478 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: in a can, or had thrown down a beer can, 479 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: or just just any minor, minor violation of law and ordinance. 480 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: They were going through every single police report. Do you 481 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: remember that, Phil, I felt like I was directly involved 482 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: with the investigation. You know. Um, they kept us in 483 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: the loop, and I do They checked out every single 484 00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 1: possible lead, like you said, picking up beer can and 485 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: picking up bottles, picking up trash, and then a break 486 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: in the case. To Tony de Stefano Newsday reporter, what happened, Well, 487 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: there was a commander of detectives by name of John Russo, 488 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: and he was intimately involved with the investigation, and he said, look, 489 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: we got to go a different way in this case. 490 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: So he decided to go back over an old stop 491 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: of somebody, a young man and Howard Beach in May, 492 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: about two or three months before the murder, and they 493 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: were fishing around and they say, well, let's who was 494 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: this guy, and they were trying to find out who 495 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: he was. Fortunately for the cops, there wasn't any stop report, 496 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: so they had to go back into an old police 497 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: memo book to divine his name, and that's where the 498 00:33:53,880 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: case took off. Take a listen to this un emergency. 499 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: It's a suspicious mail if so and he's a suspicious 500 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: person just walking back and forth around the block. Yeah, 501 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: he's looking in yards around different blocks to bind himself. 502 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,399 Speaker 1: He's wondering around the block. Yes, walking up and down 503 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,320 Speaker 1: the blocks with a hold on and just stopping in 504 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: front some houses. And he keeps going that he stopped 505 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: with us. They So you have a black block the 506 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: tracks through all with a white, white and black shop. 507 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,240 Speaker 1: It's the spiciest person outside. And you're saying that he's wondering, 508 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: walking up and down the block, and you're seeing that 509 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: he's also looking into um yards. Boy keep stopping a 510 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: part of different houses, and that he keeps walking on. 511 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,439 Speaker 1: But he's got trucking. He's going back to the same 512 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: way he came lumerous A police would hope I'll help. 513 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: Is abody underway to have a few more questions apart 514 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: and look at it. It's not a it's not a Sartaine. 515 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do. Just report a suspicious person, okay? And 516 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: what is u? The descussion? Is he black? White? Hispanic 517 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: agent interviews to be I don't know if he's aptical. Okay, 518 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: So he's male, sark skin and and you said he's 519 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: wearing a black and white track. Shoot, so correct is 520 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: we're black, black rocks a blockhead block the lights up. 521 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 1: You're a mon fromwhere I'm sorry, you can exact Lieutenant, Yes, 522 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: from what comprecent working quarter? Headquarters? Ye, okay, headquarters. And 523 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: but you're also that you said, right, okay, okay for 524 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: reading number one eight four sevens all right, Greg, you're 525 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: giving them my number to feel the try to create 526 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: his dad, Phil, How in the world was this old? 527 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: It's not even a police report of a suspicious person 528 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood months before. In fact, there's just really 529 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: notations in a police notebook. How did that lead to 530 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 1: this nine one one call? The nine one one call 531 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: was by like Tony says Lieutenant Russo, of a suspicious 532 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: person just walking around the neighborhood. And thank god that 533 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 1: they were able to find a name, and with that name, 534 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: they were able to find an address, and they looked 535 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: up his past history and he did have a violent past, 536 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: so they used that as a reason to get a 537 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 1: sample from this person. You know, to doctor Robbie Ludwig, psychotherapist, 538 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: a lot of people say, it's just a hunch, a hunch. 539 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 1: They had a hunch they should look at people loitering 540 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: in the area, people that had been wandering the area 541 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: of suspicious activity. That never really amounted to a police report. 542 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: But you know, what doctor, Robbie. You and I have 543 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 1: discussed this many times. I don't really believe in hunches. 544 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:52,320 Speaker 1: I think hunches are ideas that you get because of 545 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:59,919 Speaker 1: literally millions of years of evolution of radar. Internal radar 546 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: are of things you may have seen in the past 547 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 1: that you didn't even register. Of something you hear, something 548 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: you smell. You don't know why you get a hunch. 549 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: But I consider a human being like a living radar 550 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: machine that's circling around and around and around and around, 551 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: and you pick up on things that may mean nothing 552 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,320 Speaker 1: to your brain, but inside it means something to you. 553 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: I think that's a lot more than a hunch. Dotor 554 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 1: Robbie Ludwig. I agree with you, Nancy. And when somebody 555 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,240 Speaker 1: is talented and also skilled in an area, they're plugged 556 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: into facts and feelings in a certain way that really 557 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: can produce important results. I came across a quote once 558 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: that said intuition is putting together facts very quickly, and 559 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: I think at its best, that's exactly what intuition is. 560 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: And that's what a hunch is, and it's worth following 561 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,839 Speaker 1: because very often it could lead us down the right 562 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 1: path and answer many questions that we have about various 563 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: situations in our lives. Just think about it. Months have 564 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:11,240 Speaker 1: passed since Phil Vitronto finds his daughter brutally murdered. Months 565 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: pass even with a video, even with DNA, still no suspect. 566 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: Fast forward February two, seventeen, NYPD Lieutenant John Russo suddenly 567 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: remembers a complaint from the year before. May the year 568 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: before about a suspicious guy wearing a hoodie and sweatpants 569 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: on a hot day. A hoodie and sweatpants on a 570 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,240 Speaker 1: hot day looking at houses in the Howard Beach area. 571 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: The next day, the same guy pacing in a parking lot. 572 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: Residents reporting a similarly dressed man with a crowbar in 573 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 1: his hand going in and out of back yards. Nobody 574 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: can find a crowbar. Nobody observed a crime, but it 575 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: remained in the mind of the NYPD lieutenant, and finally 576 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: a name emerges. Chanel Lewis Nancy Grace, signing yall goodbye 577 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: for